1300 engine oil grade
Darren Beech
Hi,
Can anyone tell me what grade of oil should be used in a 1300 Beetle engine?
Many thanks,
Darren
PS - Remove x's to reply
John Connolly
Darren Beech wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me what grade of oil should be used in a 1300 Beetle engine?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Darren
>
Personally, I feel it depends on how old the engine is, what
temperature you will be driving the engine in, and what rpms you use.
Give this info and I will try to help you out.
John
Jeffry Johnston
: Don't use cheap supermarket stuff though. They may use cheaper
: additives which break down with heat, and the VW engine runs HOT.
: Rob
: R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Doggonit I can't jump you on this one Rob, all I can say is, a friend of
mine that worked in Texas at a couple differnt oil bottling plants sez:
"The same oil that goes in the -store brand- bottles goes in the -name
brand- bottles"
It's all in the marketing situation as to what the price is. No kidding.
He named several name brands but only one stuck with me -Havaline- cause
that's the name brand that my dad swears by and has used since I was knee
high. :-)
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Rob Boardman
Darren Beech wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me what grade of oil should be used in a 1300 Beetle engine?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Darren
>
Hi Darren,
My original VW Owner's Instruction Manual (1970 beetle) which has both
1300 and 1500 engine options (H1.... series 1500 and F... 1300 engines,
which should be the same for you in the UK [Note for US folks. You got
H0... and H5... 1500, and B... 1600 engines between about 66 and 70])
says:
" The VW engine makes no demands in respect of oil quality which cannot
be
fullfilled by every well known and popular brand." That is - any good
quality brand will do the trick.
Don't use cheap supermarket stuff though. They may use cheaper
additives
which break down with heat, and the VW engine runs HOT.
VW specified SAE30 for warm seasons and hot climates, SAE20 for winter
use, SAE10 for temps below 5f (-15c), and SAE5 for Arctic conditions
below -13f (-25c).
These days, most of these needs can be met with a good 20w50 multigrade,
which is a 20 when cold, but only thins like a 50 when hot (doesn't get
too
thin when hot). A 10w40 would be good for really cold British winters.
Most folks recommend a mineral oil, rather than synthetic. The VW
engine was
designed for mineral oils. Synthetics are designed to resist heat,
which might be good in hi speed modern engines, but not so good in VW
engines,
as the oil has TWO jobs - lubrication, and quite a bit of cooling. You
want
an oil which does NOT resist heat, so it will absorb engine heat, and
then
give it up readily inside the oil cooler in the fan housing.
The oil needs changing often as VW engines have no filter - except for
the
'tea strainer' under the drain plug cover - and so changing the oil
often
helps keep the engine clean. (Clean the 'teas strainer' when you change
the
oil, and also clean the sump plug cover plate - any gunk will settle
there.)
In simple terms, use a good multigrade oil (like Castrol GTX2, Duckams
etc),
and change it often - at least every 3000 miles, but more often is good.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500 beetle, one owner, 235,000 miles on it's original engine)
(Technical Data Section of 1970 VW Owner's Manual available on request,
includes variations, engine codes and colour codes of 67-70 models)
Robert Erck
Darren Beech wrote: > > Hi, > > Can anyone tell me what grade of oil
should be used in a 1300 Beetle engine? > > Many thanks, > >
Darren > > PS - Remove x's to reply
Hi Darren,
My original VW Owner's Instruction Manual (1970 beetle) which has both
1300 and 1500 engine options (H1.... series 1500 and F... 1300 engines,
which should be the same for you in the UK [Note for US folks. You got
H0... and H5... 1500, and B... 1600 engines between about 66 and 70])
says:
" The VW engine makes no demands in respect of oil quality which cannot
be fullfilled by every well known and popular brand." That is - any good
quality brand will do the trick.
------> correct
Don't use cheap supermarket stuff though. They may use cheaper additives
which break down with heat, and the VW engine runs HOT.
-----> Oils that meet the latest API certification requirements all work
pretty well. Do you KNOW that VW engines run hotter than other engines?
That fact is not obvious to me.
VW specified SAE30 for warm seasons and hot climates, SAE20 for winter
use, SAE10 for temps below 5f (-15c), and SAE5 for Arctic conditions below
-13f (-25c).
These days, most of these needs can be met with a good 20w50 multigrade,
which is a 20 when cold, but only thins like a 50 when hot (doesn't get
too thin when hot). A 10w40 would be good for really cold British
winters.
-----> note that oil that is too thick is bad bad engines. In cold
weather I use a mixture in my motorcycle that is mostly 5W30 with some
5W50.
Most folks recommend a mineral oil, rather than synthetic. The VW engine
was designed for mineral oils. Synthetics are designed to resist heat,
which might be good in hi speed modern engines, but not so good in VW
engines, as the oil has TWO jobs - lubrication, and quite a bit of
cooling. You want an oil which does NOT resist heat, so it will absorb
engine heat, and then give it up readily inside the oil cooler in the fan
housing.
--------> Synthetic is better in every respect. The talk about absorbing
heat is nonsense.
Oil compatibility problems arise not due to lubricating properties, but
due to the effect on rubber seals. The base stocks are fully compatible.
The oil needs changing often as VW engines have no filter - except for the
'tea strainer' under the drain plug cover - and so changing the oil often
helps keep the engine clean. (Clean the 'teas strainer' when you change
the oil, and also clean the sump plug cover plate - any gunk will settle
there.)
--------> sounds reasonable.
In simple terms, use a good multigrade oil (like Castrol GTX2, Duckams
etc), and change it often - at least every 3000 miles, but more often is
good. -- Rob R.Boa...@bom.gov.au Use this address - incorrect address
above to fool auto mailers (1970 1500 beetle, one owner, 235,000 miles on
it's original engine) (Technical Data Section of 1970 VW Owner's Manual
available on request, includes variations, engine codes and colour codes
of 67-70 models)
-------> Duckams????
Robert Erck
Curtis J. Raymond
The only point that I have is that multi-weight oils get heavier when hot
not thinner. You need more support (since engine parts actually float on
a barrier of oil.)
More viscus oil is thicker.
Open to corrections if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure on this one.
-Curt
John Smith
Hi, I got a 1300cc Owners Manual and it recommends the following
above 0 degrees SAE 30
below 0 degrees SAE 10W
below 25 degrees SAE 5W
Samantha
Robert Erck wrote in message ...
con...@sisna.com
In article <639n23$m93$1...@dove.qut.edu.au>,
"John Smith" <n198...@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Hi, I got a 1300cc Owners Manual and it recommends the following
>
> above 0 degrees SAE 30
> below 0 degrees SAE 10W
> below 25 degrees SAE 5W
>
> Samantha
Um, Samantha....
How OLD is that owners manual? It may also recommend bias ply tires....
Things have changed over the years, including such "simple" things as
what oil is recommended!
John
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
ADW
Maybe so, but designed-in bearing clearances haven't changed, and that's one
of the primary factors involving viscosity. I'd stick with the manual
recommendations.
Patrick Heller
I agree with this. Hey if the car has run this long with no problems
on the original recommendations then I can't see any reason to change
to something else - other than perhaps the cost of monograde oil, but
this is chickenfeed compared to the personal value of the car.
Pat
con...@sisna.com
> >Maybe so, but designed-in bearing clearances haven't changed, and that's one
> >of the primary factors involving viscosity. I'd stick with the manual
> >recommendations.
> >
> >
>
> I agree with this. Hey if the car has run this long with no problems
> on the original recommendations then I can't see any reason to change
> to something else - other than perhaps the cost of monograde oil, but
> this is chickenfeed compared to the personal value of the car.
This is some messed up logic, and I see it all the time! Just because the
car has run with "no problems" doesn't mean it couldn't be running
better, and/or cleaner, or with better fuel efficiency with more current
lubrication.
Face it; technology is moving forward! There have been advances in almost
EVERY technology you can think of in the past 25 years, including engine
oil. The primary purpose for using single weight oils was that the
multigrades OF THE TIME broke down quickly in the high heat of the
aircooled VW engine (relative to most of the lower rpm watercooled
engines). However, the oils, and the additives, have evolved to be VERY
good.
This is similar to many "new" products that are introduced to the
marketplace. The initial offering has "problems" that have yet to be
worked out. The petroleum companies HAVE worked these out, and multigrade
oils last far longer than the recommended oil changing interval without
breaking down. The problem for most VW owners now is getting the DIRT out
of the engine, not worrying about oil breakdown!
I tend to think the petroleum engineers when they say that the
multigrades are superior for street cars. I do feel that single weight
oils have their place, so don't get me wrong. I just think that people
who use it because "Muir says so", or some dinosaur VW mechanic who
hasn't learned a thing about technology (and is facing extinction, and is
STILL afraid to evolve), is is afraid to install an electronic ignition,
etc.....
In fact, I will state here that I feel there is more engine wear caused
by inappropriately using single weight oils, than there is by using
multigrades! Using a straight 30 or 40 weight oil and starting the engine
on a 0 degree morning is not doing your engine any favors! Straight
weight oils simply can NOT flow to the parts of the engine that need
lubrication in the TIME that it takes to do so, because it is too SLOW
(thick). Finally, straight weight oils fall far short when it comes to
fuel efficiency; this is one of the reasons multigrades are superior.
I doubt I am going to change the opinions of the hard core straight
weight oil users, but I hope I get people who have been doing so solely
based on the advice of someone else reason enough to question this
practice!
LD Rushing
Most (read all unmodified) VW's used viscosity sensitive plunger valves to
regulate engine COOLING. Use of the wrong grade of multi-weight oil can
SERIOUSLY shorten the life of a stock Vdub engine.....trust me! IF it's
unmodified and especially if it's a single plunger engine, use the
recommended single weight! (unless you have an external cooler!)
con...@sisna.com wrote in message <8784943...@dejanews.com>...
con...@sisna.com
In article <63mc9r$e...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"LD Rushing" <old...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Most (read all unmodified) VW's used viscosity sensitive plunger valves to
> regulate engine COOLING. Use of the wrong grade of multi-weight oil can
> SERIOUSLY shorten the life of a stock Vdub engine.....trust me! IF it's
> unmodified and especially if it's a single plunger engine, use the
> recommended single weight! (unless you have an external cooler!)
>
LD,
Let's think about this a second..... I agree that VW's used plunger
valves to regulate some cooling... but they aren't viscosity sensitive,
they are oil PRESSURE sensitive.
And, let's go further..... If an engine has 5-30 instead of straight 30
weight, it's oil will run through the oil cooler MORE, not less (if it is
a single, or dual, pressure relief cased engine)! So, what are you trying
to say? I don't understand your train of thought.....
If you are implying that an engine can "blow" because of using multigrade
oils, I agree .. under the condition that the WRONG multigrade was used
in the first place! I could easily use this argument to state that using
single weight oils can blow your engine compared to multigrades.. you use
90w OR 5 weight, and I'll use 5-30.
All I'm saying is that if the owner chooses reasonably well, multigrade
oils are superior to straight weight oils (if the owner actually changes
their oil before 6K miles).....
The straight weight "rule" is a myth perpetuated by the uneducated (about
this topic) or the stubborn...
Patrick Heller
After all this is it any wonder that there is so much confusion on
this topic ???
Let's face it, if you are (like me) driving a stock bug then moving
with the technological times is probably not your highest automotive
priority. I'm far more interested in _preserving_ my vehicle, and I
believe that with issues such as clean running and fuel efficiency
I'll go a long way further by simply keeping my engine tuned, and
ensuring the carby is doing its thing properly.
I've heard plenty of people say multigrade synthetics are fine, and
I've heard plenty say they're not - so as I am NOT a lubrication
engineer and I haven't studied the intimate design of my car's engine,
and I drive in the mild lovely weather of Sydney Australia, I'll stick
to what the engineers at VW say. After all, they should know, huh ?
Pat
On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:36:53 -0600, "LD Rushing"
<old...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Most (read all unmodified) VW's used viscosity sensitive plunger valves to
>regulate engine COOLING. Use of the wrong grade of multi-weight oil can
>SERIOUSLY shorten the life of a stock Vdub engine.....trust me! IF it's
>unmodified and especially if it's a single plunger engine, use the
>recommended single weight! (unless you have an external cooler!)
>
Robert Erck
Thanks for the info Bob.
I got an interesting paper (Snailmail) from Shell yesterday on fuel and
additives,
relating particularly to Valve Seat Resession (VSR), and the loss of lead in
fuels.
This has been a another constant thread in the VW newsgroup for some time
now as
you probably know. "Do I use Octane enhancers and upper cylinder lube" etc
I forgot to bring it with me, but it says, in essence, that they found that a
phosporous compound also provided reasonable protection from VSR, but was
poisonous to catalytic converters (Shell used to market this additive in
the 60s
as ICA), but then found that a sodium alkalide compound also provides some
protection, but they could only add a small amount before inlet valve sticking
occurred. So nothing is as good as lead to protect the valve seats.
Leaded fuel
is still available in Australia (the average age of cars here is 13.5 years,
including LOTS of VWs). Of course VWs will last better than most older
cars, as
they do have hard valve seats, but not hard enough I suspect to fully
protect them
from damage I suspect.
I wonder whether the fuel companies are adding the sodium stuff to fuels these
days. (The Shell paper is a few years old). Cars designed for unleaded don't
need it of course. I'll have to ring them and ask.
Regards
----------------
Rob,
I think that a base oil will remain single grade unless long chain
viscosity-index improvers are added. It takes those additives to make it
multigrade.
Sliding surfaces spend, maybe, 99.99% of their time in hydrodynamic
lubrication conditions, in which no metal is touching. When surfaces
touch, this is called boundary lubrication. The VI improvers do nothing
to improve boundary lubrication, or to keep the oil from degrading (in
fact, they make it worse), but they do keep the oil from getting too thin
at high temperatures. So I would say they improve lubrication, but
indirectly, so to speak.
I don't think I would like to have a Harley that requires straight 50
oil. It would not be possible to start such an engine in cold weather.
I got the following off the internet. Nobody seems to say what
brightstock actually is. I have no idea what a raffinate is......
"OIL ADDITIVES
Lubricant and fuel additives are used to modify the behaviour of base
oil or fuel. In the formulation of engine lubricants, for example, they
are needed to attain the high performance levels required by modern
engines.
Complex mixtures of these functional components are typically marketed
as a performance package. High molecular weight polymeric additives are
used to modify the viscosity/temperature relationship and to provide
multigrade characteristics that ensure optimum rheologial behaviours in
both low and high temperature service. Pour point depressants are often
added to improve the flow properties at low temperature, and the very
small amounts of anti-foam additive may be included to prevent the
formation of foams.
Shellswim additives are wax modifiers which are used as fluidity
improvers in pipeline transportation of crude oils and residual fuels.
They modify the crystal structure of waxy components in the oil, reduce
the risk of solidification if the pipeline were to be shut down at
temperatures below the natural pour point, and give significant cost
benefits by improving flow characteristics in the line. Shell Dewaxing Aid
1615 also stems from Shell wax modifier technology and provides improved
filtration in the solvent dewaxing of brightstock raffinates.
Skygard is a particulate and smoke reduction additive for use in
industrial gasoil and heavy fuel oil, which has proved to be highly
effective, reducing particulates and smoke and it can also reduce fuel
consumption."
Bob
--------------------------------------
Date: 11/2/97 04:22 PM
To: Bob Erck
From: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
Bob,
Thanks for the info on brightstock.
If brightstock is a heavy base grade oil, it probably explains the ability of
Penrite Oils here to produce 20w60, 25w70 engine oils without needing too much
addition of long chain polymers (which I understand DON'T add to the
lubrication
properties of the oil).
I wouldn't be surprised if companies like Pennziol, who make a straight 50 and
other high sae number oils for Harley Davison etc used a fair proportion of it
too.
Interestingly enough, I came across the term 'brightstock' in a 1925
publication
recently on the design of aircooled (Aero) engines, by a British research
scientist named Pye, so the term has been around a long time.
Rob
---------------
Yes, I think I've heard that methanol is cool burning. The chemically
correct air/fuel ratio is only 6.5:1. It certainly is corrosive,
especially to plastics. Hot flames don't hurt oil, but liquid methanol in
the oil might be bad.
I have information about brightstock (no capitals) from "Hart's
Lubricant's World". (I also get the magazine "Oils and Greases," and I am
an Assistant Editor of "Lubrucation Engineering.") Paraffinic base oils
come in 4 general categories. Light (90-150), medium (200-350), heavy
(500-650), and brightstock. Average prices (dollars per gallon) are 0.92,
0.92, 1.04 and 1.26. I asked someone why brightstock was called
brightstock. I was given the explanation that it is an extremely heavy
base stock, and at it does not have a clear amber appearance to it like a
normal base stock. It has a scintillating/milky/luminous appearance.
Don't quote me on that. I do not know anything about the molecules in
it.
I don't know why an engine would change operating temperature. I can only
guess that the oil is getting thicker as it ages. Very thick oils that
are sheared at high rate can overheat bearings and ruin them.
Dr. Bob
--------------------------------------
Date: 10/27/97 07:30 PM
To: Bob Erck
From: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
Hi again Bob,
Your comments on Indy cars and Amoco are interesting.
They are burning metanol too, which is highly corrosive in the sump, and I
believe results in brittle cranks etc due to high nitrogen compounds from
cfombustion getting into the metal components. I suppose it doesn't
really matter
for the short like of those engines anyway. The other feature of methanol
though
is that it's a very cool burning fuel (high latent heat of evaporation,
and burns
with a blue flame so less radiant heat), and this might help protect the oil to
some degree.
Penrite Data sheets say they use a high proportion of Brightstock, which I
understand means a smaller range of different hydrocarbons - a bit like getting
closer to the synthetic 'single' compounds I guess. Less variation/ more
stability.
The stuff I have been using is a 20w60 (thins to 23.3 at 100c).
It seems to work very well. Comes out full of crud like it should, but
still has
a good oily feel which doesn't seem to deteriorate with use. Meets API SJ/CF
It's recommended by most of the VW shops here anyway. I'd like to do a
temparature comparison test as a VW mechanic in hot Queensland has done though.
He found that all modern oils filled the lubrication role OK (few engine
problems
caused by lubrication failure), but that some oils ran hotter in the same
engine (his 1978 Kombi) than others, and that the cheapest cool running oil was
Castrol GTX.
It was he who posed the question about the small oil pathways in the cooler etc.
The other interesting thing he noted was that oil temps on ALL oils he tested
started to increase as the oil aged in use - from about 3000km (2000 miles) in
VWs. I guess that this indicates some kind of degredation in all oils, and I'd
like to know what causes it (but I'm no chemist).
I wonder whether VW found this too, which would help explain their 3000mile oil
change recommendation?
We could all talk around this for years couldn't we!
Rob (bom.gov.au is Bureau of Meteorology.gov.Australia)
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From: ro...@saserver.sa.bom.gov.au (Rob Boardman)
To: bob_...@qmgate.anl.gov
Subject: Re: 1300 engine oil grade
Reply-To: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 01:30:45 GMT
Message-Id: <97102801...@sapepm.sa.bom.gov.au>
Return-Receipt-To: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
X-Mailer: E-Mail 1.7
Rob,
Thanks. What you write is interesting.
I would expect that race oil performance would have only minor correlation
with passenger car oil performance. Race oil needs to avoid oxidation and
foaming. Hydrolytic stability, sludge, and low temperature viscosity are
unimportant for race cars, but very important for passenger cars.
However, a guy I know was involved in Indy car racing for Amoco. He said
that the race cars ran their normal (synthetic of course) Amoco oils with
no problems at all. So the conventional oils must be pretty good!
Oil that is running way above the normal temperature limit will still
lubricate just fine. The Reynold's equation always works. The problem is
that oils oxidize must faster, necessitating more frequent oil changes, as
you observed in race cars.
I can't think of any reason why synthetics would flow differently than
mineral oils in use. The viscosities and densities are essentially
identical. At really low temps, minerals are bad actors. In the Northern
US, a lot of GM truck engines were failing. The starters and fuel
injection systems were so good that the engines would start and run at
-30C or below. Unfortunately, the factory fill oil simply wouldn't flow.
Lots of big warranty claims came in for destroyed bearings. GM quickly
worked out a deal with an oil company for an oil that would flow at those
low temperatures. I don't know if it was synthetic, or a special dewaxed
mineral base stock. Wax crystallizes to make oil set up like jelly.
In the US, I believe it is illegal for oil companies to make claims that
their oil performs better than another company's oil. They can say that
they meet or exceed certain standards. But they can make only vague
claims of superiority, not specific. I think that this restriction is so
oil companies don't bury each other in claims of how well their oils work
in such-and-such a test, under such-and-such conditions.
A limit on the size of oil passages in a cooling system might be a good
thing because then oil flow would be low when it is cold, allowing the
engine to get up to proper operating temperature.
To show that you are a pro, refer to Penrite as a oil "blender", because
that's probably all that the company does - it blends purchased additives
and base stocks together to formulate a custom oil. Is it better for
racing? Probably. If they use a polyphenylether base stock, then the
high temp lubricating properties will be superb. Perfect compatibility
with seals too. Just don't use it in cold weather or spill it on the
paint!
Bob E.
--------------------------------------
Date: 10/27/97 04:51 PM
To: Bob Erck
From: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
Thanks for the response Robert,
Yes, we certainly agree on a lot.
A couple of other interesting points. The earlier VW engines (1200, 1300, 1500)
had 6mm oil galleries, the later 1600s had 8mm oil galleries. The earlier
engines also had steel oil coolers with very narrow oil pathways, whereas the
later ones had aluminium coolers with (I think) slightly larger oil galleries.
These physical differences may cause some differences in the ability of various
oils to flow easily, and this in itself may alter the rate of heat exchange
through the cooler.
Apart from the problem of seal compatibility of synthetics, it would be
interesting if someone were able to do a comparison of flow dynamics in the
VW engine with synthetics and mineral oils, and the chemical breakdown
characteristics at say 140c (sustained).
In racing, oils commonly get over 140c (I've seen the guages from in-car cameras
on the Australian racing circuits, and heard team discussions on it), but they
only have to last a few hundred kms before changing. Quite different to the
use in cars, and I wonder about the sense of choosing oils on the basis of
race performance, as the oil companies would like to encourage.
Penrite (speciallty oil manufacturer here in Australia) say that their
oils work
BETTER at higher temps, but I still wonder if that includes better-for-LONGER.
Regards,
Rob
------------------
I think we agree. All oils become less viscous at higher
temperatures. In single grade oils, the relationship of viscosity to
temperature is inversely exponential, and the trend is the same for all
grades. The tendency to thin out at higher temperatures can be reduced
with the addition of viscosity index improvers, which are chain molecules
which uncoil when heated. Under heavy use, the VI improvers decompose,
and the oil thins.
To make a motor oil, you take a base stock and blend in an additive
package. Mineral base stocks, distilled from petroleum, are very good,
but contain a wide range of undesirable molecules. The lighter fractions
boil off at high temperature. The heavier fractions limit pumpability at
low temperatures. Other fractions oxidize. "Synthetic" oils used a
single or a mix of synthesized base molecules. These offer low viscosity
variation, chemical stability, extended oxidation resistance, and better
properties over a wider temperature range. The challenge is to select a
fluid that is compatible with seals. For example, olefins don't cause
seals to swell at all, but dibasic acid esters cause too much swelling.
Synthetics prove their worth at extremely low or extremely high
temperatures. For very easy service, like in taxicabs, synthetics should
not be needed.
The physical heat capacities of oils are essentially all the same, and
are less than that of water. Heat capacity is expressed in units of
cal/gm. When technical people speak of heat resistance, they are
referring to the property of not chemically degrading at high
temperatures. Many Suzuki motorcycle engines are partly cooled by oil.
The viscosity difference between oil when first starting up on a cold
day, when it is in the hot areas in the engine when warm, is about factor
of one hundred. For a multigrade it is factor of (maybe) thirty.
Thanks for the info on Duckams. I got 4 internet search hits on
Duckams, 3000 on Amsoil, and 10,500 on Pennzoil. The internet must be
biased toward US brands.
It seems odd to me that VW engines should be designed such that they
subject their internal parts to such high temperatures. When other
motorcycle riders berate air-cooled motorcycle engines, I use VW and
Porsche engines as an example of successful air cooling and say that "VW
and Porsche engines are air cooled, and last almost forever, so what's the
problem?"
Oh, by the way, I've left out one of the most important factors in
lubrication: due to reasons which are not fully understood, oils get much
more viscous when subjected to high pressure (100,000 psi) . This is
treated in elasto-hydrodynamic lubrication theory. That's why oils work
much better than theoretically predicted. Water and silicones do not
exhibit this property, and make poor lubricants.
By the way, as little as 2% water in oil reduces its lubricating
effectiveness by one half. That comes from a Volvo technical document.
That's why water condensation is so bad.
Robert Erck
--------------------------------------
Date: 10/27/97 01:06 AM
To: Bob Erck
From: r.boa...@bom.gov.au
"Curtis J. Raymond" <cray...@gwi.net> wrote
>The only point that I have is that multi-weight oils get heavier when hot
>not thinner. You need more support (since engine parts actually float on
>a barrier of oil.)
>More viscus oil is thicker.
>Open to corrections if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure on this one.
>-Curt
Curt,
I started this tread on a reply to Darren Beech about which oil to use
in his VW 1300 in the UK.
Sorry to correct you, but oils DO get thinner when hot, no matter what
they started out as.
The SAE number of oils is a descriptive number which does NOT relate
directly to the viscosity. Each SAE number refers to a RANGE of
viscosities, not just one - this allows slightly different oil
formulations to quote the same SAE ratings despite slightly differing
vicsosities.
A straight SAE20 oil thins to an actual viscosity of 6 to 9 at 100c.
A straight SAE50 oil thins to an actual viscosity of 18 to 22 at 100c.
So a 20/50 oil acts like a 20 when cold, but only thins as much as a 50
when hot. BUT IT DOES THIN, it does NOT get thicker as it heats up.
For example, Amsoil 20w50, is a '20' when cold, but thins to 18.27 when hot.
(Source Amsoil web page data sheet). If it thinned to 21, it would
still be a 20w50. If it thinned to 8, it would be a straight '20'.
Have a read of this (very large) article by Ed Hackett. It might help explain
some of the mysteries of oil for you.
http://rconcepts.com/beard/dragnet/drag/oilinfo.html
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Robert Erck (bob_...@qmgate.anl.gov) wrote:
clip
I (Rob Boardman) said
> Don't use cheap supermarket stuff though. They may use cheaper additives
> which break down with heat, and the VW engine runs HOT.
>
Robert Erck said
> -----> Oils that meet the latest API certification requirements all work
> pretty well. Do you KNOW that VW engines run hotter than other engines?
> That fact is not obvious to me.
Robert,
Water cooled engines run at just over the boiling point of water - about
110-115c (they pressurise the cooling system which allows this to happen -
that's why it will spirt all over the place if you take the radiator cap
off - the reduction in pressure allows the water to start boiling and
bubbling).
The aircooled VW engine has the cylinder heads running at over 200c - put
a thermocouple (measures temperature) on one and see. The oil (which
flows around the valve area of the heads) therefore gets very hot too -
hotter than watercooled which has heads at around 110-115c. VW Bus owners
commonly report oil temeraptures of over 140c when running hard, or on hot
days. Beetles will generally run a bit cooler than this, but commonly more
than 110c.
There are a number of additives which can be added to oils to meet API
standards. Some will be more temperature stable than others. Have you
used a cheap oil for a few thousand kilometers and looked at it and felt
it, then done the same with a good brand oil? I have, and you CAN feel
the difference. The good oils tend to keep the slippery feel of new
oil longer than the cheap stuff. Subjective I know, but 27 years with
the one VW - and I do all my own maintenance - must count for something.
I (Rob Boardman) said
> VW specified SAE30 for warm seasons and hot climates, SAE20 for winter
> use, SAE10 for temps below 5f (-15c), and SAE5 for Arctic conditions below
> -13f (-25c).
>
> These days, most of these needs can be met with a good 20w50 multigrade,
> which is a 20 when cold, but only thins like a 50 when hot (doesn't get
> too thin when hot). A 10w40 would be good for really cold British
> winters.
>
Robert Erck said
> -----> note that oil that is too thick is bad bad engines. In cold
> weather I use a mixture in my motorcycle that is mostly 5W30 with some
> 5W50.
Well Robert, fine if it works for you in your motorcycle. Was it designed
in 1934, and does it have 235,000 miles on it like my beetle? Anyway, you'll
note the VW DID recommend very thin oils (like SAE5) for arctic conditions.
They also said in the same Owners Manual that this oil should be changed
every 750 miles! It's a case of 'horse for courses'.
I (Rob Boardman) said
> Most folks recommend a mineral oil, rather than synthetic. The VW engine
> was designed for mineral oils. Synthetics are designed to resist heat,
> which might be good in hi speed modern engines, but not so good in VW
> engines, as the oil has TWO jobs - lubrication, and quite a bit of
> cooling. You want an oil which does NOT resist heat, so it will absorb
> engine heat, and then give it up readily inside the oil cooler in the fan
> housing.
>
> --------> Synthetic is better in every respect. The talk about absorbing
> heat is nonsense.
Justify your statement Robert!
Absorbing heat is NOT NOT NOT nonsense. Talk to any long time VW mechanic
and ask him how many engines he's seen go bad through bad lubrication
versus going bad through heat problems. a LOT of the VW cooling occurs
through the oil cooler. Why do you think VW moved it outbound of the
fan airstream on the more powerful 1600 twin port motors (the 'doghouse'
cooler). The bigger motor produces more heat, so poor old No3 cylinder
(which gets most of the oil cooler hot air on the 1200, 1300, 1500,
1600 single port models) would not have stood for it. The 1600 t/p engine
with 'doghouse' cooler has a bigger fan, and most of this additional air
goes through the oil cooler and out to the atmosphere, to get that heat
away from the cylinder cooling air. Having an oil which absorbs engine
heat readily, and then gives it up to the oil cooler, is very important.
But you go on thinking what you like, whilst I get ANOTHER 27 years
out of my engine :-)
I (Rob Boardman) said
> In simple terms, use a good multigrade oil (like Castrol GTX2, Duckams
> etc), and change it often - at least every 3000 miles, but more often is
> good.
Robert Erck said
> -------> Duckams????
If you'd been reading carefully Robert, you'd have noticed that the
original question came from the UK, where Duckams is a VERY popular
good brand oil. And since this is an international forum, an
appropriate reply was to include both an international and local brand.
If it confuses you Robert, try Pennzoil, Amsoil, Quaker State etc OK?
May your VW live forever - mine will.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 235,000 miles on it's original engine)
------------------
"Curtis J. Raymond" <cray...@gwi.net> wrote
>The only point that I have is that multi-weight oils get heavier when hot
>not thinner. You need more support (since engine parts actually float on
>a barrier of oil.)
>More viscus oil is thicker.
>Open to corrections if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure on this one.
>-Curt
Curt,
I started this tread on a reply to Darren Beech about which oil to use
in his VW 1300 in the UK.
Sorry to correct you, but oils DO get thinner when hot, no matter what
they started out as.
The SAE number of oils is a descriptive number which does NOT relate
directly to the viscosity. Each SAE number refers to a RANGE of
viscosities, not just one - this allows slightly different oil
formulations to quote the same SAE ratings despite slightly differing
vicsosities.
A straight SAE20 oil thins to an actual viscosity of 6 to 9 at 100c.
A straight SAE50 oil thins to an actual viscosity of 18 to 22 at 100c.
So a 20/50 oil acts like a 20 when cold, but only thins as much as a 50
when hot. BUT IT DOES THIN, it does NOT get thicker as it heats up.
For example, Amsoil 20w50, is a '20' when cold, but thins to 18.27 when hot.
(Source Amsoil web page data sheet). If it thinned to 21, it would
still be a 20w50. If it thinned to 8, it would be a straight '20'.
Have a read of this (very large) article by Ed Hackett. It might help explain
some of the mysteries of oil for you.
http://rconcepts.com/beard/dragnet/drag/oilinfo.html
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Robert Erck (bob_...@qmgate.anl.gov) wrote:
clip
I (Rob Boardman) said
> Don't use cheap supermarket stuff though. They may use cheaper additives
> which break down with heat, and the VW engine runs HOT.
>
Robert Erck said
> -----> Oils that meet the latest API certification requirements all work
> pretty well. Do you KNOW that VW engines run hotter than other engines?
> That fact is not obvious to me.
Robert,
Water cooled engines run at just over the boiling point of water - about
110-115c (they pressurise the cooling system which allows this to happen -
that's why it will spirt all over the place if you take the radiator cap
off - the reduction in pressure allows the water to start boiling and
bubbling).
The aircooled VW engine has the cylinder heads running at over 200c - put
a thermocouple (measures temperature) on one and see. The oil (which
flows around the valve area of the heads) therefore gets very hot too -
hotter than watercooled which has heads at around 110-115c. VW Bus owners
commonly report oil temeraptures of over 140c when running hard, or on hot
days. Beetles will generally run a bit cooler than this, but commonly more
than 110c.
There are a number of additives which can be added to oils to meet API
standards. Some will be more temperature stable than others. Have you
used a cheap oil for a few thousand kilometers and looked at it and felt
it, then done the same with a good brand oil? I have, and you CAN feel
the difference. The good oils tend to keep the slippery feel of new
oil longer than the cheap stuff. Subjective I know, but 27 years with
the one VW - and I do all my own maintenance - must count for something.
I (Rob Boardman) said
> VW specified SAE30 for warm seasons and hot climates, SAE20 for winter
> use, SAE10 for temps below 5f (-15c), and SAE5 for Arctic conditions below
> -13f (-25c).
>
> These days, most of these needs can be met with a good 20w50 multigrade,
> which is a 20 when cold, but only thins like a 50 when hot (doesn't get
> too thin when hot). A 10w40 would be good for really cold British
> winters.
>
Robert Erck said
> -----> note that oil that is too thick is bad bad engines. In cold
> weather I use a mixture in my motorcycle that is mostly 5W30 with some
> 5W50.
Well Robert, fine if it works for you in your motorcycle. Was it designed
in 1934, and does it have 235,000 miles on it like my beetle? Anyway, you'll
note the VW DID recommend very thin oils (like SAE5) for arctic conditions.
They also said in the same Owners Manual that this oil should be changed
every 750 miles! It's a case of 'horse for courses'.
I (Rob Boardman) said
> Most folks recommend a mineral oil, rather than synthetic. The VW engine
> was designed for mineral oils. Synthetics are designed to resist heat,
> which might be good in hi speed modern engines, but not so good in VW
> engines, as the oil has TWO jobs - lubrication, and quite a bit of
> cooling. You want an oil which does NOT resist heat, so it will absorb
> engine heat, and then give it up readily inside the oil cooler in the fan
> housing.
>
> --------> Synthetic is better in every respect. The talk about absorbing
> heat is nonsense.
Justify your statement Robert!
Absorbing heat is NOT NOT NOT nonsense. Talk to any long time VW mechanic
and ask him how many engines he's seen go bad through bad lubrication
versus going bad through heat problems. a LOT of the VW cooling occurs
through the oil cooler. Why do you think VW moved it outbound of the
fan airstream on the more powerful 1600 twin port motors (the 'doghouse'
cooler). The bigger motor produces more heat, so poor old No3 cylinder
(which gets most of the oil cooler hot air on the 1200, 1300, 1500,
1600 single port models) would not have stood for it. The 1600 t/p engine
with 'doghouse' cooler has a bigger fan, and most of this additional air
goes through the oil cooler and out to the atmosphere, to get that heat
away from the cylinder cooling air. Having an oil which absorbs engine
heat readily, and then gives it up to the oil cooler, is very important.
But you go on thinking what you like, whilst I get ANOTHER 27 years
out of my engine :-)
I (Rob Boardman) said
> In simple terms, use a good multigrade oil (like Castrol GTX2, Duckams
> etc), and change it often - at least every 3000 miles, but more often is
> good.
Robert Erck said
> -------> Duckams????
If you'd been reading carefully Robert, you'd have noticed that the
original question came from the UK, where Duckams is a VERY popular
good brand oil. And since this is an international forum, an
appropriate reply was to include both an international and local brand.
If it confuses you Robert, try Pennzoil, Amsoil, Quaker State etc OK?
May your VW live forever - mine will.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 235,000 miles on it's original engine)
Rob Boardman
con...@sisna.com wrote:
>
> > >Maybe so, but designed-in bearing clearances haven't changed, and that's one
> > >of the primary factors involving viscosity. I'd stick with the manual
> > >recommendations.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I agree with this. Hey if the car has run this long with no problems
> > on the original recommendations then I can't see any reason to change
> > to something else - other than perhaps the cost of monograde oil, but
> > this is chickenfeed compared to the personal value of the car.
>
> This is some messed up logic, and I see it all the time! Just because the
> car has run with "no problems" doesn't mean it couldn't be running
> better, and/or cleaner, or with better fuel efficiency with more current
> lubrication.
>
> Face it; technology is moving forward! There have been advances in almost
> EVERY technology you can think of in the past 25 years, including engine
> oil. The primary purpose for using single weight oils was that the
> multigrades OF THE TIME broke down quickly in the high heat of the
> aircooled VW engine (relative to most of the lower rpm watercooled
> engines). However, the oils, and the additives, have evolved to be VERY
> good.
>
> I doubt I am going to change the opinions of the hard core straight
> weight oil users, but I hope I get people who have been doing so solely
> based on the advice of someone else reason enough to question this
> practice!
>
> John
Here! Here! to John's post.
To start with, my VW Owner's Manual (came with the car below),
says that the VW engine 'does not make any demands that any
good quality oil cannot provide', meaning - any good oil will
do the lubrication job.
They then list the various SAE ratings for the severity of
climate 30SAE, 10SAE, 5SAE etc, As John said, they did not have
access to good multigrades at that time, so you had to change
your grade of oil as the weather changed!.
The trick with any oil is to have one which is thin enough to
flow when cold, but doesn't thin too much when hot, as a too-thin
oil might allow metal-to-metal contact and goodbye engine!
This is the trick of a multigrade such as a 20w50. It is as thin
as a 20 when cold, but only thins as much as a 50 would when hot.
(It does thin though - some folks think it actually gets thicker
but this is NOT the case. Amsoil 20w50, for example, has a
viscosity of 18.27 at 100c, whereas a straight 20 will have a
viscosity of less than 10 at 100c). (Incidently, did you know that
the 'w' in 20w50 indicates that it has flow enhancers added to
improve it's cold-flow characteristics. Makes it a better oil
for cold winter climates because is has a lower pour-point
temperature (the temp at which it goes gluggy and won't flow).
As John said, the main reason for changing the oil often is that
is keeps the engine clean, and free of contaminants. No oil filter
on most VW engines of course, so it will get dirtier sooner. VW
engines also have positive crankcase ventilation, meaning they
pull in fresh air (through a spiral groove on the crankshaft
behind the crank pulley), and this air is NOT filtered,
meaning more dust in the oil.
The general concensus on oils for VWs is to use a good quality
multigrade (20w50 for most climates, but perhaps a 10w30 for
freezing winters), and change it OFTEN - like at LEAST every
3000 miles max, but more often is better, and more often in
winter is essential. (My book recommended every 750 miles in
arctic conditions using the 5SAE oil.)
As an aside, a long time VW mechanic here in Australia (Queensland -
hot climate like Forida) finds that Castrol 50w50 runs coolest
in his Kombi (he's tried lots of brands), but when racing
a VW they use a straight 30 or 40 oil (depends on how hot
the day is), because they WANT a thin oil when hot to reduce
viscous friction in his high revving engine. But he changes
the oil AFTER EVERY RACE to preserve the engine.
Check out http://rconcepts.com/beard/dragnet/drag/oilinfo.html
for a very long and informative article on lubricating oils.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 235,000 miles on it's original engine)
(Tech Data Section of 1970 beetle Owner's Manual available on
request - also includes engine, colour codes and descriptions
of 1967 to 1970 models)
con...@sisna.com
> I've heard plenty of people say multigrade synthetics are fine, and
> I've heard plenty say they're not - so as I am NOT a lubrication
> engineer and I haven't studied the intimate design of my car's engine,
> and I drive in the mild lovely weather of Sydney Australia, I'll stick
> to what the engineers at VW say. After all, they should know, huh ?
>
> Pat
Pat, I never said anything about the oil being/not being a synthetic. I
spoke about multigrade oils in general.
One last point: your manual also recommends spark plugs that are obsolete.
What do you do??? Go on the manual's recommendation, or the current
spark plugs that the OEM recommends? Also, bias-ply tires were very
common (unlike the "dangerous" radials), and only idiots had FM radios or
anything other than the "Hi-Fi 8 track"....