Oil Pressure question...
Daniel G. Miller
your oil (use a heavier weight). I was just reading in one of my manuals
how to adjust the oil pressure sensor. You need a pressure dial to check
it against though. It may be that your sensor just needs adjustment. I
think you're right about the sensor going off based on the relative
viscosity of the oil that changes with the engine temp.
Dan
1959 Bug
Seattle, WA
Wade Hasbrouck
'67 Beetle. When I start it, it goes out, but after it is good and warmed
up (drive it at highway speeds of 55-65 for 30 miles or so), when it idles
the oil pressure light will flicker or flicker for a little bit and stay on
fairly steady, but if I touch the gas pedal ever so slightly (obviously
increases rpm very slightly), the oil pressure light goes off completely.
I am using Castrol SAE30 oil in the engine. This is in the Seattle area
where the temperatures have been in the 40's and 50's (it will get in the
30's at night sometimes, but not often).
I am wondering if this is something I should be concerned about? Is this an
indication of something starting to go wrong in the engine? Or, is this
fairly normal?
My first thought would be the engine might be overheating just enough to
cause the oil to become just thin enought so that the motor doesn't produce
enough pressure to keep the light off, but apparently it is just below the
threshold of the sensor. The motor was rebuilt about 5 years ago/25,000
miles ago, and has been well taken care of. I don't have any gauges
installed (only have speedo and fuel gauge), but if you go by the general
rule of if the dipstick is too hot to pull out, it is not overheating. Yes,
the dipstick is fairly warm, but not so hot that you can't check the oil.
And before starting the dipstick does read full.
Yes, I do realize that one "fix" for this would be to increase the idle
speed slightly, but don't think that is necessarily the appropriate one. I
am in the process of getting a Tach/Dwell and timing light meter so that I
can get it all set correctly. I just bought the car a few weeks ago, and
since it is now the only car that own that I can and am willing to work on,
I don't have all of the "necessary" tools yet, but I am working on that. I
have already changed the oil, and adjusted the valves on it.
Thanks in advance for any and all help,
Wade Hasbrouck
1967 Beetle
Howe Family
"Wade Hasbrouck" <wad...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have a question about what I am seeing with the oil pressure light in
> my
> '67 Beetle. When I start it, it goes out, but after it is good and
> warmed
> up (drive it at highway speeds of 55-65 for 30 miles or so), when it
> idles
> the oil pressure light will flicker or flicker for a little bit and stay
> on
> fairly steady, but if I touch the gas pedal ever so slightly (obviously
> increases rpm very slightly), the oil pressure light goes off completely.
>
> I am using Castrol SAE30 oil in the engine. This is in the Seattle area
> where the temperatures have been in the 40's and 50's (it will get in the
> 30's at night sometimes, but not often).
>
> I am wondering if this is something I should be concerned about? Is this
> an
> indication of something starting to go wrong in the engine? Or, is this
> fairly normal?
>
The owner's manual says this is normal. Don't worry about it, unless it
gets to the point where you have to rev the engine quite a bit to get
the light out. Someone will probably suggest running a heavier oil. This
is a partial solution if your motor is worn, however it will make your
engine run hotter.
Anyway, drive on, all is well!
Kim Howe
kh...@omninet.net.au
Jan Andersson
engine and you should do something about it. A complete teardown and
rebuild would be the only real fix. You can prolong th elife of the
engine by steppping up to thicker oil, and /or replacing the oil pump
with a new unit. Maybe one step bigger. Can't hurt.
Check to see if it is the oil light or the generator light. With the
engine not running, turn the key to ignition so that the two lights in
the speedo light up. Go to the back, and pull off the wire from the oil
pressure sensor. The OIL light will go out. Never trust anyone or the
manuals telling which light is oil and which is generator warning light.
Someone may have swapped the wires around by mistake.
Jan
Ben Short
says...
My engine was just rebuilt, and my oil light does this - you mean to tell
me my engine is worn down???
I have to agree to disagree on this one :)
> This is NOT normal, if it really is the OIL light, you have very worn
> engine and you should do something about it. A complete teardown and
> rebuild would be the only real fix. You can prolong th elife of the
> engine by steppping up to thicker oil, and /or replacing the oil pump
> with a new unit. Maybe one step bigger. Can't hurt.
>
> Check to see if it is the oil light or the generator light. With the
> engine not running, turn the key to ignition so that the two lights in
> the speedo light up. Go to the back, and pull off the wire from the oil
> pressure sensor. The OIL light will go out. Never trust anyone or the
> manuals telling which light is oil and which is generator warning light.
> Someone may have swapped the wires around by mistake.
>
> Jan
>
> Howe Family wrote:
> >
--
--
Ben Short
IT Developer Shortboy Productions
http://www.shortboy.net email: bsh...@shortboy.net
Ph: 0407565093 (+61 Australia)
Jan Andersson
Ben Short wrote:
>
> In article <3A221B95...@rocketmail.com>, bug...@rocketmail.com
> says...
>
> My engine was just rebuilt, and my oil light does this - you mean to tell
> me my engine is worn down???
> I have to agree to disagree on this one :)
I don't accept an enginbe rebuild unless I can make the oil light go out
with just the starter turning the engine over. When it goes out, it has
to stay out for a while after I stop cranking.
All my own rebuilds are like that, and I'm not doing anything special.
Happens with a new stock pump too. (later model).
if your idle is SOOO low that the light flickers and it's normal, you
probably need to bump up your idle speed. 600rpm is not ok! :-) I keep
it around 900-1000rpms, depending on the engine. Ensures adequate oil
circulation when waiting at red lights etc..
If the oil light is flickering, it may also mean low oil level in the
case. That's even worse than normal wear, because you risk sucking air
to the pump, and that actually destroys whetever was left of your
bearings. Even new bearings. I tore my engine apart for inspection after
just one driving season, because I lost an oil pump and I didn't turn
off the engine immediately. (in the middle of heavy city traffic, had to
give it a little bit of gas so I could coast over to the side of the
road and roll onto the next parking lot) I had maybe 3000-4000 rpms in
it when the pump went. Less than one year, less than say 3-4000 miles on
the bearings, and they had pieces missing. (main bearings). I replaced
everything. A couple of months later I tore it apart again, this time
for a cam swap, and replaced everything inside again...:-) (new used
crank, lightened rods, etc.etc.. new surfaces wouldn't have matched the
old bearings, so let's buy some more bearings..)
Jan
Howe Family
<bug...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> This is NOT normal, if it really is the OIL light, you have very worn
> engine and you should do something about it.
I beg to differ. To quote VW Instruction Manual Operation and Data 1303
Page 22:
"Occasional flickering of the warning lamp when engine is idling after a
long spell of fast driving does not indicate trouble as long as lamp
goes out when engine speed increases."
Similar instructions appear in the manuals for earlier cars. (Just
checked my 1200 manual.)
It is quite normal, so long as the light goes out without greatly
increasing the revs, (ie by about 1000rpm). It should also go out after
a few minutes driving at lower speed. You can set the idle high enough
to stop this, but that just wastes fuel
Kim Howe
kh...@omninet.net.au
John Henry
Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
--
John Henry
---------------
Visit the "BugShop" at http://www.geocities.com/thebugshop/
"Stupidity really should be more painful."
Joseph
>Subject: Oil Pressure question...
>From: "Wade Hasbrouck" wad...@earthlink.net
>Date: 11/26/00 10:24 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <mmlU5.7348$II2.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>
>I have a question about what I am seeing with the oil pressure light in my
>'67 Beetle. When I start it, it goes out, but after it is good and warmed
>up (drive it at highway speeds of 55-65 for 30 miles or so), when it idles
>the oil pressure light will flicker or flicker for a little bit and stay on
>fairly steady, but if I touch the gas pedal ever so slightly (obviously
>increases rpm very slightly), the oil pressure light goes off completely.
=============
It sounds like the idle needs to be increased. Turn the big screw on the carb
in or out at least 1/4 to 1/2 turn until the engine runs faster. If you have a
tach, set it at 850 to 900 rpm with it completely warmed up.
****************==============
>
>I am using Castrol SAE30 oil in the engine. This is in the Seattle area
>where the temperatures have been in the 40's and 50's (it will get in the
>30's at night sometimes, but not often).
That sounds OK, but if it gets colder you might want to use 10 W30 or
10 W40.
In cold weather, or when its below 85 degrees outside, I use Castrol 10 w30.
When it is above 40 degrees F and also gets to be above 85 degrees F, I use
Castrol 30HD, when it is 80 degrees F or above at Midnight, and gets to be over
110 degrees F in the afternoon, I might use Castrol 40HD.
I change my oil about every 850 miles, or at least every 3 months, or when it
turns black. I clean the strainer at least every 6 months, but I am using a
bypass oil filter.
*******************==============
>
>I am wondering if this is something I should be concerned about? Is this an
>indication of something starting to go wrong in the engine? Or, is this
>fairly normal?
>
>My first thought would be the engine might be overheating just enough to
>cause the oil to become just thin enought so that the motor doesn't produce
>enough pressure to keep the light off, but apparently it is just below the
>threshold of the sensor. The motor was rebuilt about 5 years ago/25,000
>miles ago, and has been well taken care of. I don't have any gauges
>installed (only have speedo and fuel gauge),
Gene Berg Enterprises sells an oil temp dipstick that turns on the oil warning
light when the engine gets to hot. they cost about $12.00 + shipping. They have
a $50.00 minimum order but you could order some stuff that you are going to
need in the near future like tune-up parts to fill out the order.
you could get a thermometer like they use to test automotive air conditioning
syustems for about $5.00. It has a disc dial face on a metal stem. When the
rengine is warmed up, shut it off, remove the dipstick and temporarily replace
it with the metal thermometer. Unless I am mistaken, 158 degrees F is warm
enough to adjust the carb, 190 degrees F is operating temperature, but when it
gets up to 200 to 225 degrees F it is getting too hot.It is time to pull over,
shut it off and open the deck lid for an hour or so.
I use a VDO oil pressure gauge and a VDO oil temp gauge, both with electric
senders. They dont give the actual temperatures and pressures, but you can tell
when something is wrong when it gives a reading that is more or less than
usual.
For example, the dash oil warning light in the speedo is often slow to come on
when the oil is cold and thick.If ther oil cooler started leaking, the oil
warning light might be slow to come on. I was using a Fram oil filter once, it
imploded, the seal failed, and I lost most of the oil. the oil light came on
and went off when the engine started, but it took its time about coming on
when the Fram filter failed. I was using a CP Performance filter/pump( by the
way filter pumps are nor recommended by most everyone in this newsgroup since
they act like an oil heater from the hot air that is coming out from the no.3
and no. 4 cylinders.)and the Fram oil filter that failed on me was either a
Fram PH 2844 or a Fram PH 3682. I think it was the PH 3683.
What worked best was the Fram PH 3614 and the Fram PH 2870A although I usually
did not use a PH 2870A since it is longer than the PH 3614 and rested closer to
the header extractor exhaust pipe where it acted like even more of an oil
heater.
I never use Fram oil filters since I read the article on oil filter study on
Jan's VW Page.
I usually use Motorcraft, Wix, or the Purolater Pure One.
I compared the temperature reading on the metal thermometor that I stuck in
the dipstick hole to the reading I got on the VDO Night Design oil temp gauge.
when the needle points to the 1 in 180degrees it read 190 degrees on the metal
thermometor in the dipstick hole.
***************=============
but if you go by the general
>rule of if the dipstick is too hot to pull out, it is not overheating. Yes,
>the dipstick is fairly warm, but not so hot that you can't check the oil.
>And before starting the dipstick does read full.
>
>Yes, I do realize that one "fix" for this would be to increase the idle
>speed slightly, but don't think that is necessarily the appropriate one. I
>am in the process of getting a Tach/Dwell and timing light meter so that I
>can get it all set correctly.
Dont waste your money on an advance timing light. Someone told me since I have
an 009 distributor, I needed to get an advance timing light so I would be able
to adjust it to 25 degrees total advance at 2500 rpm.
I used an 009 for over 8 years and never used an advance timing light. I just
warmed it up and set it to 7 1/2 to 8 degrees btdc at 850 to 900 rpm and it ran
fine.
Besides it is easy to break the inductive pickup clamps on timing lights if
you drop the clamp or accidentally step on it, and you could almost buy 2 of
Sears regular inductive timing lights for the price of one Sears advance timing
light.
=====================
I just bought the car a few weeks ago, and
>since it is now the only car that own that I can and am willing to work on,
>I don't have all of the "necessary" tools yet, but I am working on that. I
>have already changed the oil, and adjusted the valves on it.
There are 3 books/manuals that are really helpful:
VW Beetle by Robert Haynes (may not be the exact title)
How to Keep Your VW Beetle Alive even for the Complete Idiot by John Muir (
This is a big help to those that are new to Beetle's even though some disagree
with some of John Muirs opinions. I rebuilt a Beetle engine by following the
instructiuons in that book and it turned out well.)
and The Official VW Beetle Owner's Workshop manual by Robert Bently
(This one is good to have but is not as helpful as compared to having the 2
books mentioneed above. It's good to look at while you are following the
instructuions from the Haynes Beetle or John Muir book.
=================
These sites will be helpful:
http://www.bug-bits.freeserve.co.uk/ramva/
index.htm
Max
few months earlier. There was no paperwork on this rebuild, but it ran
well and a compression test showed 125 lbs +/- 3 all the way around.
But, the oil light did come on at an idle, especially after the engine
warmed up.
I have a VDO oil pressure gauge which read about 5 lbs where the warming
light came on. I'm told the warning light comes on at around 7 lbs.
Close enough.
About a year ago, I had this engine (1600 DP) completely rebuilt by
Steve Hollingsworth of San Jose, CA. Among other things, Steve found the
main bearings to be completely shot on the supposed rebuilt engine. We
didn't even bother with the old case, but rebuilt on a new case.
I now have around 20K miles on the new engine and have not seen oil
pressure less than 15 lbs at idle (~900 rpm), even under very hot
driving conditions (120ºf ambient air temp).
http://64.1.240.30/om42.jpg shows the oil recommendations from the 1967
owners manual. I run 30 weight all the time.
Max
--
max
67 Ghia Coupe
Fwooming across the Eighth Dimension!
http://www.wolfpacvw.itgo.com/
http://www.crosswinds.net/~maxwelton2k/
http://www.blitzkriegvws.com/
Max
The only thing I can find in the 1967 Manual (for the Karmann Ghia) on
the subject is in the troublshooting section. Page 40.
Problem: "Green warning light comes on while you are driving."
Probable Cause: "14. If the green light goes on, the oil pressure is too
low."
What To Do: "14. Stop at once and check oil level. Add oil as
neccessary. If the oil level is sufficient and green light goes on while
driving, contact the nearest Authorized VW Dealer before driving on."
My 1600 only had low pressure when it needed rebuilding. See my other
post.
Max
aussiebug
"Wade Hasbrouck" <wad...@earthlink.net> wrote:
in my
> '67 Beetle. When I start it, it goes out, but after it is good and
warmed
> up (drive it at highway speeds of 55-65 for 30 miles or so), when it
idles
> the oil pressure light will flicker or flicker for a little bit and
stay on
> fairly steady, but if I touch the gas pedal ever so slightly
(obviously
> increases rpm very slightly), the oil pressure light goes off
completely.
>
> I am using Castrol SAE30 oil in the engine.
> 1967 Beetle
>
Hi Wade,
It's quite normal to see the oil light flicker occasionally with a warm
engine, as the oil pressure at idle is only about 7psi (around 30psi
when driving).
Your engine is still relatively fresh, but obviously a few tiny signs
of wear will start to creep in, and lower oil pressure is one of them.
The straight 30 oil is OK, but these days multigrades are very good,
and John henry has suggested 10w40.
I'd even go one further and suggest a 20w50.
The smaller the first number, the lower the temperature at which it
will still flow. The higher the second number, the less it thins when
hot, and this helps maintain oil pressure. (the w indicates that it has
been treated to remove gummy substances which would cause it to go
gluey in winter - w for "winterised")
20w50 oil is good down to +5f/-15c (VW recommendation) and I don't
think Seattle weather gets that low does it?
Give it a try and see what happens.
regards,
--
Rob, http://www.geocities.com/aussiebug1970/index.html
auss...@startNOSPAM.com.au
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brad Irwin
I think they are talking about the GEN light
B Irwin
Howe Family <kh...@omninet.net.au> wrote in message
news:khowe-3F12CE....@news.per.paradox.net.au...
Jan Andersson
brushes and see what happens.
Jan
Tonks64
>long spell of fast driving does not indicate trouble as long as lamp
>goes out when engine speed increases
My 1200 lite comes on and stays on after driving hard and its hot weather. I
rebuilt the moter, new jugs, pump everything except putting cam bearings in
which you cannot except if you have it machined to hold them. I figure the cam
is eather worn or the case section for the cam. In hot weather I ran straight
50 which I do hate. I figure like Jan says the damn lite shouldnt be on what so
ever. I have put 14,000 miles on it since the rebuild but going to go ahead and
yank it nextweekend and drop a 1641 that I just compleated in it.(lift).
Tony
Tonks64
>First thing I'd do is go with a 10W40 oil.
I would have to disagree with you John on this 10-40, no disrespect what so
ever. Guess up there where you live it might work in the winter but 10-40 wont
do the trick in a VW engine if ya ask me. Unless your in alaska or the
Anarctica.
Tony
Earle Horton
Drove it across the state and back last June, got clocked by a state trooper
going 88 mph, talked my way out of a ticket ("tailwind, I guess, officer").
Doesn't leak or burn a drop.
Read the Gene Berg catalog, instructions. Thick oil doesn't lubricate your
bearings or rings properly. Even if you are leaking or burning oil, using
thick oil just makes your problems worse.
Earle Horton
http://earleh.tripod.com
Tonks64 <ton...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001202133315...@ng-md1.aol.com...
Shad Laws
10w40 is a bad choice. But multivis oils in general are great.
When it comes time to making a multivis oil from a straightweight dino oil,
one takes the lighter viscosity and adds VI (viscosity index) enhancing
polymers that expand when heated to effectively thicken the oil.
The amount of VI additives needed to make a 10 wt. oil into 30 when hot
(i.e. a 10w30) is not too bad. Nor is 20 wt. to 50 (i.e. a 20w50).
However, the amount to make a 10w40 oil is too much! After much use, the
polymers will tend to decay and because 10w40 has so many more, it will
decay much more rapidly.
Also, note that the assignments of the weights are arbitrary. So the answer
is no: 10w40 shouldn't just have the same amount as 20w50 because of a
difference of 30...
Putting in a straightweight 50 oil is a great idea if you are limited to
non-synthetic blends on a high duty cycle racing engine. Warm up time
doesn't matter, engine life isn't that important (beyond one race, that is),
and they will do a bit better when up against 280F temperatures constantly.
Of course, "multivis" synthetics are better than heavy straightweights.
Remember again - viscosity numbers (the 10,20,30, etc. deal) are arbitrary!
The viscosity of oils change as temperature is increased. Synthetics tend
to decrease in viscosity less than dino oils with temperature, so they need
less VI additives to give the same effective "spread" of viscosity numbers.
For example, weights like 5w30 and 15w50 when synthetic last longer than
10w30 and 20w50 oils and hold up to heat better. Drop the temperature
to -50F or raise it to 400F and synthetics are MUCH better :-)
End result: straightweights suck (generally have great viscosity at high
temperature but WAY too thick at low temperature - more wear, less
lubricating, higher pressures, more likely to leak...). 10w40 sucks.
Synthetics all differ, but brands like Mobil 1 and Redline are usually quite
reliable and have been proven several times over.
For a normal T1, it can be argued that synthetics are useless because their
longlife abilities cannot be realized due to dirty oil (open crankcase and
no filtration are no-nos). However, on an engine without these
characteristics, like a T4 engine, synthetics can prove to be cheaper in the
long run due to longer engine life, greater temperature tolerances, and more
infrequent oil changes (6000-7500 miles is around normal).
Take care,
Shad
John Connolly
I use 5-30/40/50 in winter, and 20-50 in summer
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc
Tonks64
>
>
I kick myself in the butt evertime I get into one of these oil subjects. oh
well, I keep telling myself I'll never get in another but here I am again John.
I guess I wont use it because I'm here in the Texas heat and never will, breaks
down to fast under extream heat and that we have here. In the winter I'll use
castrol 20-50 or straight 30 S-3 arco oil. I will use 10-40 on my door henges
I'll have to say tho.lol
Shad Laws
According to every oil chemistry article I've written, 10w40 has
considerably more VI additives than 10w30 and 20w50, greatly increasing the
problems associated with them breaking down at higher temperatures...
Is the 5w50 stuff you use in the winter synthetic or dino?
Take care,
Shad
John Connolly <jo...@aircooled.net> wrote in message
news:90c7as$mtgp$1...@ID-61523.news.dfncis.de...
> I disagree; there's nothing wrong with 10-40.
>
John Connolly
There is NOTHING wrong with 10-40, 5-50, 5-30, 10-30, etc, IF you keep the
temps below 230 degrees F, and you change before a 3K mile interval (I
recommend 1K miles for stock engines).
The "oil breakdown specs" are only applicable to guys that exceed these
temps or mileage. You in that category Shad? I think not.
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
Shad Laws <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:90ec62$surg$1...@ID-35662.news.dfncis.de...
Shad Laws
>
> There is NOTHING wrong with 10-40, 5-50, 5-30, 10-30, etc, IF you keep the
> temps below 230 degrees F, and you change before a 3K mile interval (I
> recommend 1K miles for stock engines).
>
Aye, true: for low temps and a 1k oil change interval, it really doesn't
matter...
Even beyond that, it isn't the end of the world. If you put in 10w40, your
engine doesn't exactly self-destruct or anything... it's just that given two
equally priced options it is the poorer of the choices, that's all...
> The "oil breakdown specs" are only applicable to guys that exceed these
> temps or mileage. You in that category Shad? I think not.
Well, actually, yes - I usually change oil around 5-6k, but it is Mobil 1
15w50 synthetic. Unless, of course, there are any miscellaneous losses due
to leaks in a pressure gauge line while driving through Salt Lake City...
:-)
Take care,
Shad
ANT The Monarch of Menace
sealing of the engine, but what can be done to improve this?
I should think that adding a sand seal dealio to the pulley end of the crank is
a beginning. What about a sealed/filtered crankcase breather system? I refer to
what most other more modern engines use (where there is a hose from a valve
cover to the air cleaner, and also a PCV)
What else could be done?
-ANT
Shad Laws
crank has a mechanical seal at both ends, a breather box for the case and
both heads (actually a part of the head itself, not the valve cover, but to
the same place), and full-flow oil filtration. MUCH better :-)
Take care,
Shad
ANT The Monarch of Menace <s2...@aol.computer> wrote in message
news:20001203170153...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
ANT The Monarch of Menace
>crank has a mechanical seal at both ends, a breather box for the case and
>both heads (actually a part of the head itself, not the valve cover, but to
>the same place), and full-flow oil filtration. MUCH better :-)
So the bottom line is....that we can and should do this to type 1's
-ANT
Bruce
miracle oil may not break down much, but if in an unfiltered engine, how
does it lose the contaminates it picks up? Even filters does not clean all
contaminates.
And for weights, I think that what was recommended in the books, is now
out dated. All oils are reformulated and improved from time to time. What
applied at the time the books was written, does not apply today. In
example, the basic B&S engine used to call for 30w only. New ones now give
options of even 5w30. The engine hasn't changed, the oil has. We wound up
driving one of those "Korean" Pontiacs for awhile once. It called for 5w30
year around.
I'm no longer afraid to use the lighter viscosities. I have 4 vehicles in
years '68 to '81 that I drive myself (wife only drives the 5th). I had
been running in v-8s winter 10-30, summer 10-40, and in the little 4
cylinders, 5-30 winter, and 10-30 summer. This is what I feel is ideal (in
my cooler climate). I still hold to that for the wifes 4 cyl, which is
driven everyday. But the rest I now just run my winter weights all
season. Not ideal, but I don't feel it will make a noticeable differece in
the life of the motor. So if I only run the old Ford pickup with it's 9
quart pan 2000 miles in a year, trying to stay to the ideal oil is more
trouble than I could benefit from.
I believe that changing your oil every 2,000 miles instead of every 2500
miles will make a much bigger difference in the life of your motor than
the weight (to a reasonable extent) type, or brand. A heavier weight might
be better on a loose motor, but I've read most wear occurs shortly after
cold starts, before that heavy oil gets to the moving parts. Makes sense
to me. Lighter oil may be less pressure, but more flow, which also carries
the heat away.
Jeez. Got carried away. Everyone has their own opinions. In this subject
two contradicting opinions can both be right. Just like I'm sure that my
statement of thinner oil carrying the heat away better is correct. Someone
else could be just as right in saying that it allows more heat to be
generated. Sort of like politics :o) None of us can do real tests. Labs
probably get different results with engines in different operating and
mechanical conditions. Don't think it's a very exact science. Go with what
you're comfortable with.
In article <90ef43$sghq$1...@ID-35662.news.dfncis.de>, "Shad Laws"
<s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote:
--
Bruce
Remove ? for email
John Connolly
It has to do with
an open crankcase (no seal on pulley).
only 2.5 quart oil capacity
no filter
Change any of these and you can start extending your oil change interval.
"normal" cars have a 5 quart capacity and a filter, so 3K is fine for those,
right?
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
ANT The Monarch of Menace <s2...@aol.computer> wrote in message
John Connolly
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
Shad Laws <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:90egbi$r5g7$1...@ID-35662.news.dfncis.de...
> VW did finally get off their butts and do just that with the T4 engine -
the
> crank has a mechanical seal at both ends, a breather box for the case and
> both heads (actually a part of the head itself, not the valve cover, but
to
> the same place), and full-flow oil filtration. MUCH better :-)
>
> Take care,
> Shad
Shad Laws
> I tried to stay out of this but... I must say that even some $100 a quart
> miracle oil may not break down much, but if in an unfiltered engine, how
> does it lose the contaminates it picks up? Even filters does not clean all
> contaminates.
>
Provided you have a good full-flow filter (Purolator PureONE and Mobil1 are
great, and the former is the same price as a POS Fram) and/or some more
exotic filtration setup and it isn't so old/dirty that trapped particles
have plugged the element so much that all (or close to all) of the oil goes
through a bypass valve, then this isn't the primary problem. The primary
problem lies with the oil itself decaying. The normal blowby of an engine
puts acidic contaminants into your engine oil, chemically breaking down it's
effectiveness. Temperature accelerates the breakdown of the oil and also of
many additives, such as the VI additives. A good synthetic oil is
considerably more resiliant to these problems than a dino oil and therefore
lasts longer. Because of these problems, you change your oil in a normal
engine. If you run off of LPG you're ahead of the game :-)
Of course, if your crankcase is open to the atmosphere and has no filtration
system (the sump screen doesn't count - it isn't a filter!), then that
argument is mostly null and void. The problem of contaminates is more
immediate than a ~3000 mile breakdown of the oil.
> And for weights, I think that what was recommended in the books, is now
> out dated. All oils are reformulated and improved from time to time. What
> applied at the time the books was written, does not apply today.
Exactly! Anyone who keeps running on straightweight oils needs to lift
their head out of the 30-40 year old books and look around...
> Jeez. Got carried away. Everyone has their own opinions. In this subject
> two contradicting opinions can both be right. Just like I'm sure that my
> statement of thinner oil carrying the heat away better is correct.
To a degree, yes. If oil is so thick that it can't flow well, you're
screwed. However, to another degree, it doesn't matter. Also, you have the
counteracting argument that a heavier oil has a higher heat capacity... Oh,
well. Within a certain degree of "normalcy," it really doesn't matter in
that respect.
Take care,
Shad
> In article <90ef43$sghq$1...@ID-35662.news.dfncis.de>, "Shad Laws"
> <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Let me add on to what I previously posted.
> >>
> >> There is NOTHING wrong with 10-40, 5-50, 5-30, 10-30, etc, IF you keep
the
> >> temps below 230 degrees F, and you change before a 3K mile interval (I
> >> recommend 1K miles for stock engines).
> >>
> >
> >Aye, true: for low temps and a 1k oil change interval, it really doesn't
> >matter...
> >
> >Even beyond that, it isn't the end of the world. If you put in 10w40,
your
> >engine doesn't exactly self-destruct or anything... it's just that given
two
> >equally priced options it is the poorer of the choices, that's all...
> >
> >
> >> The "oil breakdown specs" are only applicable to guys that exceed these
> >> temps or mileage. You in that category Shad? I think not.
> >
> >Well, actually, yes - I usually change oil around 5-6k, but it is Mobil 1
> >15w50 synthetic. Unless, of course, there are any miscellaneous losses
due
> >to leaks in a pressure gauge line while driving through Salt Lake City...
> >:-)
> >
> >Take care,
> >Shad
> >
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> John Connolly
> >> Aircooled.Net Inc.
> >>
> >> Shad Laws <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
Shad Laws
under normal conditions. To a degree, all spin-on oil filter systems are
bypass. When there is too much of a pressure drop across the filter, a
bypass valve opens and lets oil go straight through. This keeps cold oil
from exploding filters and dirty filters from creating low oil pressure.
Most spin-on filters you buy have a bypass valve in them already...
Take care,
Shad
John Connolly <jo...@aircooled.net> wrote in message
news:90epnn$rok9$2...@ID-61523.news.dfncis.de...
> the type 4 is NOT FULL FLOWED (it's a bypass system)
>
> --
> John Connolly
> Aircooled.Net Inc.
>
> Shad Laws <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
John Connolly
system doesn't filter ALL the oil that goes to the bearings, filter-bypass
or not.
Most people in the VW world understand "full flow" to mean ALL the oil for
the engine, that passes thru the oil pump, goes to the filter. This is NOT
the case on the type 4.
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
Shad Laws <s-l...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:90eqtf$ug89$1...@ID-35662.news.dfncis.de...
Shad Laws
There was someone around here who was the head mechanic for a fleet of
buses. I forget his name offhand... Anyway, he used to use Fram filters for
quite awhile, but then along came Allied Signal to buy them out. He two
heard knocking when the cold engines fired up in the morning. He swapped
out all of the bad filters and put in better ones - no more problem.
Their white ones... you mean the HP1 filters? I know the box is white, but
I forget about the filter itself... anyway, the HP1 just has a heavier can.
Same crappy bypass valve, same cardboard ends, same crappy element. It
sounds like you were running with a low oil pressure... yucky.
Take care,
Shad
ANT The Monarch of Menace <s2...@aol.computer> wrote in message
news:20001203230022...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> >
> >Provided you have a good full-flow filter (Purolator PureONE and Mobil1
are
> >great, and the former is the same price as a POS Fram)
>
> Speaking of POS Fram, like nan idiot I actually put one on my Cadillac and
now
> have a rod knock. I thought if I used thier snazzier one (white instead of
the
> common orange) that I'd be alright. WRONG.
>
> I have put a claim in against them and have mailed them the filter in
question.
> Let's see what they think of my $3600 plus repair estimate.
>
> I just know they'll claim their filter wasn't at fault and deny my claim.
Am
> prepared for this and will take them to small claims court. This will
either
> force them to make me an offer to settle or worse case I will probably
> automatically win half of what I seek as the judges never want to get into
the
> technical issues and just award half whenever there's a somewhat confusing
auto
> repair related case.
> -ANT
>
>
ANT The Monarch of Menace
>
>It has to do with
>
>an open crankcase (no seal on pulley).
>only 2.5 quart oil capacity
>no filter
>
>Change any of these and you can start extending your oil change interval.
>"normal" cars have a 5 quart capacity and a filter, so 3K is fine for those,
>right?
On a "normal" car you can easily go 3K in my opinion, as long as you don't do
most of your driving in the city, or for short trips. This sort of driving
doesn't allow the oil to get hot enough to boil out the condensation which
leads to formation of acids. That's why you need to change the oil more often
in "severe duty" situations. Doesn't have anything to do with the oil wearing
out or getting dirty.
-ANT
ANT The Monarch of Menace
ANT The Monarch of Menace
>I forget about the filter itself... anyway, the HP1 just has a heavier can.
>Same crappy bypass valve, same cardboard ends, same crappy element. It
>sounds like you were running with a low oil pressure... yucky.
Yep, the box and the filter were box white, and the gasket was orange
(silicone?) rubber. The cannister was definately thicker and it looked like
there was more filter element inside. There also was a orange check valve that
the regular orange filter didn't have. More money, same problem.
I ain't mad, I'm glad in a perverse way as I'm sure I'll get some money out of
this. Fair is fair, you put out a shoddy product you had better be prepared to
suffer the consequences.
-ANT
Jan Andersson
John Connolly wrote:
>
> The type 4 oil system does NOT filter all the oil. In other words, the
> system doesn't filter ALL the oil that goes to the bearings, filter-bypass
> or not.
>
> Most people in the VW world understand "full flow" to mean ALL the oil for
> the engine, that passes thru the oil pump, goes to the filter. This is NOT
> the case on the type 4.
>
> --
Ok wise guy ;-)
Now tell us how to modify it so we get all the oil filtered... lol
Jan
James W. Lindsay
> Someone will probably suggest running a heavier oil. This
> is a partial solution if your motor is worn, however it will make your
> engine run hotter.
Thicker oil will cause an engine to run slightly hotter because the relief
valve that directs oil to the cooler works via pressure. When the oil is
thin/hot, more oil is directed to the cooler; thick/cold oil is directed
away from the cooler to speed up engine warm-ups. By increasing the oil's
viscosity (ie: by running a thicker oil), the result is less oil directed
to the oil cooler. Not much, but it is noticeable.
Thicker oil will also rob an engine of horsepower. Thicker oil is harder
to pump than thin oil. Arguably, thicker oil also "absorbs" more
horsepower from the engine as the spinning crankshaft collides with the
suspended oil mist inside the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------
James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay ICQ: #7521644
----------------------------------------------------------------
Insert inevitable trivial witticism of your choice.
----------------------------------------------------------------
James W. Lindsay
> On a "normal" car you can easily go 3K in my opinion, as long as you don't do
> most of your driving in the city, or for short trips.
Are you aware that the recommended oil change interval for today's Hondas
is 12,000km? :)
> This sort of driving
> doesn't allow the oil to get hot enough to boil out the condensation which
> leads to formation of acids. That's why you need to change the oil more often
> in "severe duty" situations. Doesn't have anything to do with the oil wearing
> out or getting dirty.
Curious. Would you know if the conditions that lead up to the acid
formations in our oils also apply to synthetics? Or to put it another way,
do synthetics experience the same level of acidic build-up compared to dino
juice?
ANT The Monarch of Menace
>Ok wise guy ;-)
>
>Now tell us how to modify it so we get all the oil filtered... lol
Stuff toilet paper in the oil passages.
-ANT (for I AM Cornholio)
ANT The Monarch of Menace
>is 12,000km? :)
And they want you to buy a new one every couple of years too! Seriuosly, the
extended maintenance intervals are somewhat marketing driven as that;s what the
competition is doing.
>Would you know if the conditions that lead up to the acid
>formations in our oils also apply to synthetics? Or to put it another way,
>do synthetics experience the same level of acidic build-up compared to dino
>juice?
Not sure. But the additive package is different and more stable in syns. There
are almost no additives in race oil to prevent formation of corrosion or acid
formation so that's one example of a flavor that's different (and the main
reason not to use race oil in a daily driven street car under any
circumstance).
-ANT
Shad Laws
> the engine, that passes thru the oil pump, goes to the filter. This is NOT
> the case on the type 4.
>
Yes, but if you take a "full-flow" T1 and put a proper filter canister on
there, you'll have the same net effect. However, as a slight benefit, the
bypass valve in the engine block eliminates any potential for crappy filters
to cause excessively low oil pressure. IIRC, I believe that my old T1
"full-flow pump" (the one that sticks it out to the left like the new
Mexican ones) had a similar bypass valve in it...
Take care,
Shad
Shad Laws
> formations in our oils also apply to synthetics? Or to put it another
way,
> do synthetics experience the same level of acidic build-up compared to
dino
> juice?
>
The same amount of stuff comes out of there, but synthetics do not have as
much of a problem as dino oils with them. This is the primary reason why
they recommend such a longer oil change interval with them.
If you want to reduce the amount of acidic blowby in the first place (the
products of incomplete combustion, and complete combustion for that matter,
of gasoline are slightly acidic), then you might try TotalSeal rings or,
better yet, LPG. :-)
Take care,
Shad
Tonks64
>buses. I forget his name offhand... Anyway, he used to use Fram filters for
>quite awhile, but then along came Allied Signal to buy them out. He two
>heard knocking when the cold engines fired up in the morning.
That's me Ant. No more fram filters for me. They seem to create a big vacuum.
Tony
Tonks64
>now
>> have a rod knock. I thought if I used thier snazzier one (white instead of
>the
>> common orange) that I'd be alright. WRONG.
>>
Go ahead and put a good Wix on there and it will probly be ok. When my buses
started knocking I changed to Wix and the same moters are still on the road
today. That was over 10 yrs ago and about a est. of 80,000 miles ago at least.
I have also noticed that Everstart Batteries sold by Wal-Mart are about as good
as Fram Filters.(Neverstarts).
Mike Fritz
down under the engine. That portion is sealed. My theory is that because the
breather hooks up to the air cleaner below the actual filter, a suction is created
to purge the crank case.
Mike
ANT The Monarch of Menace wrote:
> 1k oil changes!!!! What a disgusting situation. I realize this is due to poor
> sealing of the engine, but what can be done to improve this?
>
> I should think that adding a sand seal dealio to the pulley end of the crank is
> a beginning. What about a sealed/filtered crankcase breather system? I refer to
> what most other more modern engines use (where there is a hose from a valve
> cover to the air cleaner, and also a PCV)
>
> What else could be done?
> -ANT
--
The content of this message contains my ideas, experiences, and general information I've heard or read.
I will usually specify whether the information was heard, read, my idea, or from experience.
It is up to you to be the judge of how valid the content of my messages are.
Mike Fritz
Mike
ANT The Monarch of Menace wrote:
--
John Connolly
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
Jan Andersson <bug...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:3A2B4A85...@rocketmail.com...
Tonks64
>
>My girlfriend's new car has a 7.5k mile oil change.
> Mike
>
Thats because they want you to come back next year and buy another new one
because the moter blew up on the one that is one year old..lol
No offence but I wouldnt do that. Do it every 3000 and that moter will last
forever,well a long time.(unless its a ford) Tony
Jan Andersson
>
> run it for a minute. :-)
I knew you'd come back with a reasonably simple solution, but this....!
Aircooled.Net saves the day again! They truly do give the best advice
and customer
support on the planet! :-)
This must have been the best value for my money yet. lol
Jan
jadu...@nmsu.edu
Personally, I think that the 3000 mile oil change is a scam by the oil
companies to make money on selling oil and filters. Changing it that
often might be needed on a air-cooled car where it runs hot, but on a
water cooled car I never use an interval less than 5000. I've torn down
motors that I know have not had the oil changed in 30,000 miles (I know
because I was the one not changing it; I wasn't going to spend more on
oil than I did on the entire vehicle). When I looked at the motor, the
amount of wear was about normal for a motor that age. There was slightly
more sludge, but it wasn't too bad and far cry from what the oil ads want
you to believe. I also have a friend that is on 60,000 miles without an
oil change on his Jeep, and it still runs great.
Not that I recommend this at all...
FWIW,
-james
ctp2
oil about every year and it is his daily driver. It looks like shit, but it still
runs great.
Mike Fritz
oil change anymore. But the americans still do. So I figure, engines have gotten
better, cleaner, faster, etc... With modern FI, little fuel is wasted. Now I'm not
saying that these engines are 100% effecient. I just feel with the computers and
all, they don't run too rich, or too lean. Propane or some other actual gas would
really bring up the mileage of your oil. I'd love to get some water cooled car just
to do a full conversion. But I don't have the means yet. :-)
Mike
jadu...@NMSU.Edu wrote:
> On 4 Dec 2000, Tonks64 wrote:
>
> > >From: Mike Fritz
> >
> > >
> > >My girlfriend's new car has a 7.5k mile oil change.
> > > Mike
> > >
> >
> > Thats because they want you to come back next year and buy another new one
> > because the moter blew up on the one that is one year old..lol
> > No offence but I wouldnt do that. Do it every 3000 and that moter will last
> > forever,well a long time.(unless its a ford) Tony
>
> Personally, I think that the 3000 mile oil change is a scam by the oil
> companies to make money on selling oil and filters. Changing it that
> often might be needed on a air-cooled car where it runs hot, but on a
> water cooled car I never use an interval less than 5000. I've torn down
> motors that I know have not had the oil changed in 30,000 miles (I know
> because I was the one not changing it; I wasn't going to spend more on
> oil than I did on the entire vehicle). When I looked at the motor, the
> amount of wear was about normal for a motor that age. There was slightly
> more sludge, but it wasn't too bad and far cry from what the oil ads want
> you to believe. I also have a friend that is on 60,000 miles without an
> oil change on his Jeep, and it still runs great.
>
> Not that I recommend this at all...
>
> FWIW,
> -james
--
Mike Fritz
Mike
ctp2 wrote:
> I have a friend with an 81 Corolla that has over 200,000 miles on it, he changes his
> oil about every year and it is his daily driver. It looks like shit, but it still
> runs great.
>
Eric Allred
For over five years now, I've worked at a 'quick lube'.
About once a month, we get some yahoo that gets all mixed up with how
often they should change thier oil, and go 30,000 miles, instead of
3,000. (Hey, it's just one '0' off, right?)
EVERY ONE OF THEM had an incredible ammount of sludge inside the oil cap
to the point where you are scooping away sludge with your fingers, and
that's just in the head, imagine what the sump looks like. Wanna hear
the even better part? We cut our filters open to drain the oil on a
cutter that works like a can opener. ALL the filters that come off
these cars are solid sludge. You cant see the filter media at all.
So extend your oil change intervals if you like. Hey, it still runs
great, right?
Me? I'll change it every 3,000.
Eric
59 bug
http://www.geocities.com/eaallred
Mike Fritz
If it says 7,500 miles, do that, or maybe sooner if you want. If you don't
understand how "they" came up with 7,500, then how did "they" come up with
3,000?
Mike
Eric Allred wrote:
--
James W. Lindsay
> I don't advocate 30,000 miles. IMO, you should follow what your book says.
> If it says 7,500 miles, do that, or maybe sooner if you want. If you don't
> understand how "they" came up with 7,500, then how did "they" come up with
> 3,000?
I believe it is a left over from the good ole days. Remember?
Non-detergent oils, non sealed crankcases, dirt roads, early filter
technology (or *none*, if you go back far enough)...
Like I've stated elsewhere, most modern Hondas recommend changing the oil
and oil filter every 12,000km (about 7,500 miles) under normal driving
conditions... with more frequent changes under "adverse" conditions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay ICQ: #7521644
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am Lancelot of Borg. Resistance is feudal.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jan Andersson
>
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:35:18 -0700, Mike Fritz wrote:
>
> > I don't advocate 30,000 miles. IMO, you should follow what your book says.
> > If it says 7,500 miles, do that, or maybe sooner if you want. If you don't
> > understand how "they" came up with 7,500, then how did "they" come up with
> > 3,000?
>
> I believe it is a left over from the good ole days. Remember?
> Non-detergent oils, non sealed crankcases, dirt roads, early filter
> technology (or *none*, if you go back far enough)...
>
> Like I've stated elsewhere, most modern Hondas recommend changing the oil
> and oil filter every 12,000km (about 7,500 miles) under normal driving
> conditions... with more frequent changes under "adverse" conditions.
This thread reminds me of my first type 4 oil change.
After buying the bus (78 kombi), I drained the old, black, gooey oil out
into a big open container, let it sit for 2 days so the heavier
particles would settle at the bottom, then poured the same oil back in
there. Oil change completed. Drove one winter with those oils.
I did *really* change the oil at some point, but the engine finally
seized after about 2 years of driving. :-)
Jan