VW air-cooled engines in planes
Paul Ferguson
I'm seeking some advise on behalf of my father ( a flying enthusiast)
I'll quote what he's asked me to find out for him:
"Ignition timing details for VW 1600cc air cooled engine thats been
modified for twin spark plugs for aviation purposes"
Can anyone help or at least point me in the direction of
an URL please.
Any help is much appreciated !!
Cheers,
--
*Paul Ferguson* running Amiga and PC in total harmony...I wish ;)
Rick Third
VW engines applied to aircraft than anyone else.
Rick
'67 Beetle
Veeduber
>You dont need a URL...you need Bob Hoover. I'm sure he knows more about
>VW engines applied to aircraft than anyone else.
>
Rick (and the Newsgroup),
Thanks for the vote of confidence but when
it comes to aviation there is only ONE Bob Hoover -- Robert A. Hoover from
Tennessee, perhaps the finest pilot the world has ever known.
And I ain't him :-)
But I do drive an airplane now & then. And I have built a number of aircraft
engines based on VW components. I contacted Mr. Ferguson privately.
-Bob Hoover (No. I'm the other one :-)
VW67Fweems
><HTML><PRE>Subject: VW air-cooled engines in planes
>From: Paul Ferguson <bald...@jomarcom.u-net.com>
>Date: Thu, Dec 31, 1998 16:38 EST
>Message-id: <4QSi2.813$14....@newsr2.u-net.net>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm seeking some advise on behalf of my father ( a flying enthusiast)
>
>I'll quote what he's asked me to find out for him:
>
>"Ignition timing details for VW 1600cc air cooled engine thats been
>modified for twin spark plugs for aviation purposes"
>
>Can anyone help or at least point me in the direction of
>an URL please.
>
>Any help is much appreciated !!
>
>Cheers,
>--
r>*Paul Ferguson* running Amiga and PC in total harmony...I wish
If you go page one (company section) of my VW links page, you will find links
to the following sites that may be of help
1) Evans Aircraft
2) Volksplane
Links page at http://members.aol.com/vw67fweems/index.html
r
Bill Berckman
67 Beetle
VW Day Flyer www.ploon.nl/int-vw-day/dyvw2wd.htm
Paul Ferguson
On 01 Jan 1999 00:54:01 Veeduber wrote about "Re: VW air-cooled engines in
planes":
>
> Rick wrote:
He did ? Damn this mailer I missed that post...sorry Rick
> >You dont need a URL...you need Bob Hoover. I'm sure he knows more about
> >VW engines applied to aircraft than anyone else.
Sounds like the man I need to talk to then :)
> Rick (and the Newsgroup),
> Thanks for the vote of confidence but when
> it comes to aviation there is only ONE Bob Hoover -- Robert A. Hoover from
> Tennessee, perhaps the finest pilot the world has ever known.
Right, so there are 2 Bob Hoovers and you are one of them but not THE Bob
Hoover
I think I'm with you so far...
> And I ain't him :-)
Gotcha,
> But I do drive an airplane now & then. And I have built a number of aircraft
> engines based on VW components.
Yup, definately the man to talk to !!
>I contacted Mr. Ferguson privately.
Please call me Paul, let's not be so darned formal :)
> -Bob Hoover (No. I'm the other one :-)
Hehe :)
Cheers,
--
*Paul Ferguson* running Amiga and PC in total harmony...I wish ;)
Paul Ferguson
On 01 Jan 1999 01:17:21 VW67Fweems wrote about "Re: VW air-cooled engines in
planes":
> If you go page one (company section) of my VW links page, you will find
>links to the following sites that may be of help
Excellent, thanks very much :)))
Tony W
in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
Just something to think about.
Tony
Paul Ferguson <bald...@jomarcom.u-net.com> wrote in article
<JO1j2.831$14....@newsr2.u-net.net>...
Scott Fraser
>
> "Ignition timing details for VW 1600cc air cooled engine thats been
> modified for twin spark plugs for aviation purposes"
>
> Can anyone help or at least point me in the direction of
> an URL please.
Try SCAT Enterprises. They make an aviation head that is setup for dual
plugs. They don't have a web site but can be found at:
SCAT Enterprises, Inc
1400 Kingsdale Ave
Redondo Beach, CA 90278-3983
310-370-5501
Fax: 310-214-2285
here are a few other links that you should find usefull
http://www.wwd.net/user/bobmoore/Engine.htm (vw powered
ultralight)
http://www.wwd.net/user/bobmoore/Suppliers.htm
-------------------------------------
Scott Fraser
http://www.dolphinsci.com/crewcab.html
Paul Ferguson
On 01 Jan 1999 18:46:04 Tony W wrote about "Re: VW air-cooled engines in
planes":
> Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
I take it that PBS is a US based TV prog/station ?
I'm in the UK and so, no I didn't see it. I have little interest in flying
myself
TBH but my father has rebuilt a Turbulent and the VW engine is to be used
in that.
> Just something to think about.
I'll leave the technical stuff to the guys who are involved in getting the
plane off the ground :)
nebben
<SPAMFREE-technojock(@)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
That is true. Some people use VW engines with the prop flange
installed on the crankshaft like a pulley would be. These engines do
fail though.
I can't remember the name of the company, but at least one company out
there makes special cranks/prop bearings for use in a VW aero engine.
The case is remachined to accept a new front bearing (pulley bearing;
it is the front of the engine when in the plane now), and the crank has
substantially more
contact area to the bearing than with the pulley bearing.
I guess it helps keep the case/crank a lot happier.
-ben
"nothin' but the dog in me"
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Kyle
Tony W wrote in message <01be35b6$d61d0a60$f881490c@tony>...
>Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
>in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
>pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
>bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
>that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
>
correct, the prop is pulling. The bearing carries all of the thrust load of
the clutch, which is why it is larger. If you hung the prop at the flywheel
end there would be no thrust bearing and shims to take this load. I would
assume that some form of a flywheel has to be back there to set the endplay
and it will carry the thrust load into the crank bearing as it should be. If
the prop is imbalanced no bearing is going to hold it for long, anyway.
That's probably where I would start if I had the crazy notion to fly a
Volkswagen into the wild blue, which I haven't.
Kyle
59 single cab
67 Westfailure
Gary Miller
"nebben" <neb...@NOSPAM.my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> On 1 Jan 1999 18:46:04 GMT "Tony W"
> <SPAMFREE-technojock(@)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> > in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> > pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> > bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> > that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
>
> That is true. Some people use VW engines with the prop flange
> installed on the crankshaft like a pulley would be. These engines do
> fail though.
> I can't remember the name of the company, but at least one company out
> there makes special cranks/prop bearings for use in a VW aero engine.
> The case is remachined to accept a new front bearing (pulley bearing;
> it is the front of the engine when in the plane now), and the crank has
> substantially more
> contact area to the bearing than with the pulley bearing.
> I guess it helps keep the case/crank a lot happier.
>
> -ben
> "nothin' but the dog in me"
> --
> Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
> http://www.talkway.com
Yeah, those guys are in florida. Altimizer.com, or something. they make
2,4 and 8 cyl flat vw based motors, if I remember.
--
Gary Miller
Miller Fuel Injection
http://www.millerfi.com
360-944-4422
street baja
very effective in most applications where light wieght and high power ratios
are needed, typically they cut the pulley end off and use the crank end an
remachine what would be the pulley end. seen them in person and they seem to
run well enough not to mention smooth!! too bad we couldnt cut 2 off and add
em on to our bug engines :)
VWMIKE
Gary Miller <gmi...@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:gmiller-0101...@ip18.van1.pacifier.com...
John Connolly
John
street baja wrote:
--
While you capitalists are purging my email and spamming me, don't
forget to include these people:
Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com Federal Trade Commission:
ACCC: swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov
Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of your own medicine!
admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost
$USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
Gml...@scvnet.com
>
> Tony W wrote in message <01be35b6$d61d0a60$f881490c@tony>...
> >in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> >pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> >bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> >that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
> >
> correct, the prop is pulling. The bearing carries all of the thrust load of
> the clutch, which is why it is larger. If you hung the prop at the flywheel
> end there would be no thrust bearing and shims to take this load. I would
> assume that some form of a flywheel has to be back there to set the endplay
> and it will carry the thrust load into the crank bearing as it should be. If
> the prop is imbalanced no bearing is going to hold it for long, anyway.
> That's probably where I would start if I had the crazy notion to fly a
> Volkswagen into the wild blue, which I haven't.
The simple solution to this is to simply configure the engine as a
pusher! :)
George
Jan Andersson
Hell, the engine was DESIGNED to be installed in the rear of the
vehicle! :-)
Jan
Dave Hall
crazy. The guy had designed an elegant plane, not the boxy shape
normally used for self-build, but the foam sandwich fibreglass
fuselage moulding he made first proved difficult and flimsy.
He also took on trust that the VW engine was rebuilt, and it gave
him a lot of grief. The TV crew was ordered out of the workshop a
few times when he felt low. I wonder if any of us would behave like
that if filmed rebuilding a Beetle in a month solid?
--
Dave.
---
da...@hallvw.clara.co.uk
Please use this address for mail.
VW Type 3 & 4 Club website: http://www.hallvw.clara.net
Paul Ferguson wrote in message
<4Daj2.978$14....@newsr2.u-net.net>...
>Hi Tony,
>
>On 01 Jan 1999 18:46:04 Tony W wrote about "Re: VW air-cooled
engines in
>planes":
>
>
>> Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building
an airplane
>> in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted
on the
>> pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress
the
>> bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel
end and
>> that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
>
Tony W
Paul Ferguson <bald...@jomarcom.u-net.com> wrote in article
<4Daj2.978$14....@newsr2.u-net.net>...
> I take it that PBS is a US based TV prog/station ?
It's the US equlivent of the BBC.
Tony
Tony W
Dave Hall <da...@spam.me.nothallvw.clara.co.uk> wrote in article
<8eyj2.5006$OU....@nnrp2.clara.net>...
> I saw something like that on British TV - could have been plane
> crazy. The guy had designed an elegant plane, not the boxy shape
> normally used for self-build, but the foam sandwich fibreglass
> fuselage moulding he made first proved difficult and flimsy.
> He also took on trust that the VW engine was rebuilt, and it gave
> him a lot of grief. The TV crew was ordered out of the workshop a
> few times when he felt low. I wonder if any of us would behave like
> that if filmed rebuilding a Beetle in a month solid?
That's the one. I was just getting the transaxle in my 66 bug when I saw
that and I was thinking the same thing. I spent 2 months dialing in my bug
and I still have plenty to do to it.
I do wish they had put in a little more about the engine and what was done
to it to adapt it aircraft use.
Tony
Tony W
nebben <neb...@NOSPAM.my-dejanews.com> wrote in article
> That is true. Some people use VW engines with the prop flange
> installed on the crankshaft like a pulley would be. These engines do
> fail though.
> I can't remember the name of the company, but at least one company out
> there makes special cranks/prop bearings for use in a VW aero engine.
> The case is remachined to accept a new front bearing (pulley bearing;
> it is the front of the engine when in the plane now), and the crank has
> substantially more
> contact area to the bearing than with the pulley bearing.
> I guess it helps keep the case/crank a lot happier.
That make perfect sense. If you run across the name of the company that
makes the conversion parts, would you post it?
Tony
Tony W
street baja <glen...@nisa.net> wrote in article
<76k2r8$5k$1...@news.junction.net>...
> yes they also take vw engines and cut them in half for ultra lights!!! it
is
> very effective in most applications where light wieght and high power
ratios
> are needed, typically they cut the pulley end off and use the crank end
an
> remachine what would be the pulley end. seen them in person and they seem
to
> run well enough not to mention smooth!! too bad we couldnt cut 2 off and
add
> em on to our bug engines :)
> VWMIKE
A flat 6 type 4 engine would rock in my 74 bus. ;-) It would require so
many custom engineered parts that it would be cheaper to put a 911 Porsche
engine in.
Tony
Tony W
making that used a type 1 trans input shaft and a pair of gears (third gear
I think) and the engine would mount in a cradle so the flywheel end was
toward the prop. I was quite surprised when I saw that setup in "plane
Crazy."
Tony
Gml...@scvnet.com wrote in article <368DA6...@scvnet.com>...
> Kyle wrote:
> >
> > Tony W wrote in message <01be35b6$d61d0a60$f881490c@tony>...
> > >Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an
airplane
> > >in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on
the
> > >pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> > >bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end
and
> > >that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
> > >
Gml...@scvnet.com
>
> Mike at Import Trans Exchange showed me a conversion plate that he was
> making that used a type 1 trans input shaft and a pair of gears (third gear
> I think) and the engine would mount in a cradle so the flywheel end was
> toward the prop. I was quite surprised when I saw that setup in "plane
> Crazy."
This setup relieves the thrust loads on the crank and, also very
important, slows down the prop. Small aircraft generally spin their
props at 2800RPM or less to keep the prop tips well under sonic speed.
George Lyle
Tony W
are unsuitable for aircraft because they spin to fast. The hard part with
the gear-reduction unit is how to bolt up the engine. On front engine
planes an cradle has to be made to mount the engine and that adds weight
which is not good for airplanes but the extra HP from being able to use the
higher RPM band might offset it.
Tony
Gml...@scvnet.com wrote in article <368F2C...@scvnet.com>...
Gml...@scvnet.com
>
> Somebody once explained how all that works and why most automotive engines
> are unsuitable for aircraft because they spin to fast. The hard part with
> the gear-reduction unit is how to bolt up the engine. On front engine
> planes an cradle has to be made to mount the engine and that adds weight
> which is not good for airplanes but the extra HP from being able to use the
> higher RPM band might offset it.
The engine has to be mounted whether it is on the front or rear, and the
mounts are similar.
The other design problem is dealing with vibrations and resonances in
the reduction drive. You are essentially connecting one flywheel (the
prop) to another flywheel (the crankshaft) via some mechinism. If the
natural frequency of this connection is anywhere near the frequency
produced by the engine or prop the loads go through the roof and break
something. Belts and viscous couplings are popular cures for this
problem, although the belt and coupling manufacturers aren't very happy
about it due to liability concerns.
This is why reduction drives remain fairly rare on aircraft. If you
simply bolt the prop to the engine, the prop becomes the flywheel! You
then have to have an engine of large displacement and low RPM to produce
the power. A 100HP aircraft engine has a displacement of 3300cc or
thereabouts.
George
Christian Poage
herd of this until yesterday when I started reading theese messages and
looking at pictures on web pages and then just today I was driving on
Bothell way and I saw a westy towing a blue plane on a trailer with a vw
engine in it. ITs weird that all of a sudden I saw that right after
reading about them.
. . . just making noise, excuse me.
--
Chris Poage from
Bothell, Washington
64' Sundial Conversion Bus
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/vwbus
francois
http://www.escribe.com/aviation/vw/
There is also rec.aviation.homebuilt.
Also a good supplier of VW aero products is Great Plains Aircraft supplies.
www.greatplainsas.com.
His catalog has different ignition systems for aero VW, including dual
ignitions.
Typical dual ignition VW have one Slick 4316 magneto for one set of sparks.
and a secondary ignition system mounted in the normal distributor place for
the second set.
They are fixed timing. No vacuum or centrifugal advance.
The secondary ignition is off for starting.
The magneto has a special mode for starting. All I know is that it involve a
small spiral spring, witch allow the correct advance for the first(s) turns,
and then get locked at the normal operating conditions.
BTW, some ideas about the thread.
altimizer engines www.altimizer.com
Can someone explain me how a Type 1 aircooled engine can make reliable 120
hp @ 3000 rpm, 94 mm bore, 90 mm stroke. If my computations are not too
bad, this means a torque of 210 lbs/ft @ 3000 rpm.
propeller end.
As of today, nearly all VW prop are mounted on the pulley end. the engine is
fixed to the aircraft firewall with/near the bolts of the flywheel housing.
I am not aware of special aero crankshaft. they use "ordinary" forged
baja/racing crank (SCAT), perhaps remachined (tapered end for prop hub).
Reduction drive for VW.
I am thinking of it *BUT*
Current maximum *continuous* power of direct drive VW conversion (for a
2180).is about 75 hp. @ 3200-3400.
Using a redrive for a prop at 2000 rpm , still being at 75 hp, would
increase greatly the cost and weight, with no significant benefits.
Trying higher power means you have an engine able of ,say , 100 hp @ 5000
rpm during 20 hours without overheating and wear.(FAA aircraft engine
certification test is 150 hours).
I think this can be done, but this engine must be price competitive with
other automotive conversion.
A redrive alone is in 1500-3000$ price range.
A subaru aero conversion, including the redrive, is about 6500$, for 100 hp.
So if you build such a VW engine 100 hp @ 5000 rpm during at least 20 hrs
under 4000-5000$, a redrive is worth. and *PLEASE* post how you built it. I
think there are many people interested.
Francois.
Paul Ferguson a écrit dans le message
<4QSi2.813$14....@newsr2.u-net.net>...
>Hi,
>
>I'm seeking some advise on behalf of my father ( a flying enthusiast)
>
>I'll quote what he's asked me to find out for him:
>
>"Ignition timing details for VW 1600cc air cooled engine thats been
>modified for twin spark plugs for aviation purposes"
>
>Can anyone help or at least point me in the direction of
>an URL please.
>
>Any help is much appreciated !!
>
Paul Ferguson
On 04 Jan 1999 18:50:34 francois wrote about "Re: VW air-cooled engines in
planes":
>
> There is a mailing list dedicated to VW aero conversions at
> http://www.escribe.com/aviation/vw/
> There is also rec.aviation.homebuilt.
Thanks for the info Francois...much appreciated :)
--
*Paul Ferguson* running Amiga and PC in total harmony...I wish ;)
If you want to see how *not* to produce cool web pages go to:
http://www.jomarcom.u-net.com/
mailto:bald...@jomarcom.u-net.com
:Paul...@bigfoot.com
:ICQ: 9425266
Masqqqqqqq
is the "half VW". The engine is cut in half, to make a 2 cylinder flat
opposed engine.
Joshua Van Tol
<SPAMFREE-technojock(@)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
>
> Just something to think about.
Nonetheless, this is pretty common practice with vw engine conversions.
--
Joshua Van Tol Note the spamproofed return address when replying.
Joshua Van Tol
> Kyle wrote:
> >
> > Tony W wrote in message <01be35b6$d61d0a60$f881490c@tony>...
> > >Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> > >in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> > >pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> > >bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> > >that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
> > >
> > Yeah, but in that configuration the thrust load on the bearings would be
> > correct, the prop is pulling. The bearing carries all of the thrust load of
> > the clutch, which is why it is larger. If you hung the prop at the flywheel
> > end there would be no thrust bearing and shims to take this load. I would
> > assume that some form of a flywheel has to be back there to set the endplay
> > and it will carry the thrust load into the crank bearing as it should be. If
> > the prop is imbalanced no bearing is going to hold it for long, anyway.
> > That's probably where I would start if I had the crazy notion to fly a
> > Volkswagen into the wild blue, which I haven't.
>
> The simple solution to this is to simply configure the engine as a
> pusher! :)
Or run it through a reduction drive, which will take the thrust load off
the crank and allow you to run higher up the power band.
Eric Ulmer
They both have custom bearings on the pully end to take up larger, heavier props.
joe locicero
There's a conversion using an arbor on top of the Type 1 case. The arbor
is driven by the #1 bearing end of the crank via a Gilmer (toothed) belt
3 inches wide. The ratio is 1:1.7. and the rear pulley is a ring gear for
the starter. The engine must be mounted in a lower position. When it
flys (kit plane) I'll post it.
Joe Locicero
Oregon Performance Products
www.spiretech.com/~opshroud
Joshua Van Tol wrote:
> In article <01be35b6$d61d0a60$f881490c@tony>, "Tony W"
> <SPAMFREE-technojock(@)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Did you see the show on PBS called "Plane Crazy" about building an airplane
> > in 30 days? They used a VW engine but the propeller was mounted on the
> > pulley end of the engine. In my thinking that would over stress the
> > bearings. The VW engine was designed to have PTO at the flywheel end and
> > that's why the bearing at that end is much larger than the rest.
> >
> > Just something to think about.
>
> Nonetheless, this is pretty common practice with vw engine conversions.
>