Oil changes every 3,000 miles/3 months
Odd Questions
This may sound like a basic question to you, but I need to ask.
I am an owner of a '97 Saturn SL1 that is covered under a warranty.
Now, the recommendation is for the car checkup/oil change every 3K
miles/3 months. Recently, however, one of the two(mileage vs. time) has
been slower than the other. I.E. I either drive 3000 miles in much
less than 3 months or go 3 months without getting anywhere near 3000
miles on the car.
My question is: this 3,000 miles/3 months checkup routine..is it based
on whichever one happens to come first? Or is it just that you should
have it checked every 3,000 miles regardless of how long it took you to
get there? Or have it checked every 3 months? Or something else?
Which of these options do we need to follow to be ok by the
warranty(i.e. owner keeps reasonable care for the car)?
Thanks,
The curious one.
Blue87T
>Now, the recommendation is for the car checkup/oil change every 3K
>miles/3 months
It is very important , especially for warranty reasons , to have your oil
changed at 3K miles OR 3 months, which ever comes first.
Jay Millikan
Why do you have to change it every 3 months if you don't go 3k? I've been
told it's because of build-up, varnishing, acidity? I just always put more
than 3k in 3 months....
Thanks!
Jay
Blue87T
>Why do you have to change it every 3 months if you don't go 3k?
I was told at one point( I will look up the exact info though) that the
additives in conventional oil dissapate over time. Synthetic oils don't have
that problem. But , I will try and get a more precise answer for you.
Jay Millikan
Jay
Richard Dean
Jay Millikan wrote in message <36572A5E...@psyber.com>...
>Thanks, Blue... you can just email me with it if you'd like.
Perhaps the rest of us would like to read it as well.
Richard
Ron Pieper
How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
honest question - not bait.
Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
where's my owners manual?)
You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing the
oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
conditions.
Keep it full, use good oil (ANY oil with SAE SG or SH grade stamp), use the
correct weight, don't let it turn into tar, and chances are you'll be OK -
or better off than you'd think. 'Liquid ball bearings' my arse.
Ron
Odd Questions wrote:
> All,
> This may sound like a basic question to you, but I need to ask.
> I am an owner of a '97 Saturn SL1 that is covered under a warranty.
> Now, the recommendation is for the car checkup/oil change every 3K
Blue87T
>How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>honest question - not bait.
>
>Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
>is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
>changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
>where's my owners manual?)
It all depends on driving conditions. Saturn gives the 5K-7.5K range also. It
only seems to apply if you live on a highway , never sit at a light and your
car instantly warms up to operating temp amd there is no dirt in the air. If
you look at 2 cars that drive the same roads and one changes at 3K and one at
7K , the 3 K car will look WAY better inside than the 7K car . Guarranteed. I
see it all the time.
>You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing the
>oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
>
>
Wrong.
>I drive mostly highway in clean
>conditions.
>
>
There you have it. Most people don't.
Phillip B Jones
Saturn probably won't if something were to happen under warrantee.
So, it is probably in every ones best interest to stick to the
3k changes for at least 36k miles, if only for that reason.
Afterwards, ...
Personally, I will stick to Mobil 1 at 3k miles. A waste?
Maybe, probably overkill, but my last car (an 89 berretta
gt with a 2.8 v6) was purring like a kitten at 138k miles.
I'd still be driving it (and wouldn't be posting here)
if the side of that van hadn't been in the way. Doh!
Phil
Ron Pieper (rapi...@one.net) wrote:
: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
: --------------B8906B9D426AA6F515F15ED0
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: Forgive me for blasphemy - but...
: How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
: honest question - not bait.
: Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
: is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
: changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
: where's my owners manual?)
: You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing the
: oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
: I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
: ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
: to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
: conditions.
: Keep it full, use good oil (ANY oil with SAE SG or SH grade stamp), use the
: correct weight, don't let it turn into tar, and chances are you'll be OK -
: or better off than you'd think. 'Liquid ball bearings' my arse.
: Ron
: Odd Questions wrote:
: > All,
: > This may sound like a basic question to you, but I need to ask.
: > I am an owner of a '97 Saturn SL1 that is covered under a warranty.
: > Now, the recommendation is for the car checkup/oil change every 3K
: > miles/3 months. Recently, however, one of the two(mileage vs. time) has
: > been slower than the other. I.E. I either drive 3000 miles in much
: > less than 3 months or go 3 months without getting anywhere near 3000
: > miles on the car.
: >
: > My question is: this 3,000 miles/3 months checkup routine..is it based
: > on whichever one happens to come first? Or is it just that you should
: > have it checked every 3,000 miles regardless of how long it took you to
: > get there? Or have it checked every 3 months? Or something else?
: > Which of these options do we need to follow to be ok by the
: > warranty(i.e. owner keeps reasonable care for the car)?
: >
: > Thanks,
: > The curious one.
--
Phil Jones
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Frank Yang
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------B8906B9D426AA6F515F15ED0
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>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Forgive me for blasphemy - but...
>
>How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>honest question - not bait.
>
>Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
>is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
>changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
>where's my owners manual?)
>
>You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing the
>oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
>
>I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
>ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
>to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
>conditions.
>
>Keep it full, use good oil (ANY oil with SAE SG or SH grade stamp), use the
>correct weight, don't let it turn into tar, and chances are you'll be OK -
>or better off than you'd think. 'Liquid ball bearings' my arse.
>
>Ron
Howdy Ron:
FYI: Saturn also recommends 6,000-mile oil change for mostly highway driving
in clean condition. The 3,000-mile one is for those in the city, short
trips, stop-n-go, pizza delivery, dusty place, etc.
After 2,500 miles of local driving, I can see the oil start getting dark. I
would not let it go over 3,000 miles without changing oil. Highway driving
is another story. I once did almost 5,000 miles between change during a long
highway trip, the oil didn't look as bad as 2,500-mile local driving.
It's like brushing teeth. You can get away with just once a day before going
to bed and not have any cavity. (That's 6k miles) I personally prefer twice
a day (3k miles) :-)
My bottom line: Change the oil every 3k miles or 3 months, whichever comes
first. Unless you are lucky enough to have long smooth highway drive
everyday, then check the oil and be your own judge.
- Frank ('95 SL1)
Harry C. King III
Ron Pieper <rapi...@one.netXXX.com> wrote:
>
>Forgive me for blasphemy - but...
>
>How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>honest question - not bait.
Most actually do, under certain conditions. Most people go by the maximum
allowable mileage, rather than the minimum. Saturn really pushes the
minimum. As most of my trips are some what short (but only account for a
small portion of the mileage), I do it to be safe. That and I like the
car so much, I want to keep it a llllllooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnggg
time.
Harry
--
Harry Crawford King III
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gtd845a
Internet: gtd...@prism.gatech.edu
Darin Johnson
> You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing the
> oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
Not so. Tom & Ray Magliozzi, the guys from Car Talk, recommend this
as well. They're generally highly regarded, and are ex-mechanics who
are more on the side of consumers, not the other mechanics. In a
chapter of their book on making a car last, they state:
Do everything the owner's manual says.
The only departure from the owner's manual that we suggest is to
change the oil every 3,000 miles, rather than the 7,500 or 10,000
that many manuals recommend.
From my vast (and my brother's half-vast) experience, the
engines that keep on running forever are the ones in which the oil
has been changed religiously.
...
Change the Oil and Filter Every 3,000 Miles and Your Motoring Days
Will Be Filled with Smiles.
Let it Go to 8 or 10K and You Will Live to Rue the Day.
> I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
> ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
> to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
> conditions.
Even in clean conditions, dirt and sludge builds up in oil, and it
stays there until it's changed.
Of course, people have different goals. Some people don't want the
car to last forever, they just want to have it last 3 years and then
spend money trading up to a new car.
And just because you've had several engines get over 100K with a 7,500
or 10,000 mile change doesn't mean much. I know people that ate bacon
every morning and smoked a pack a day and lived to be in their 90's.
Who are you going to trust, the auto manufacturer's who *want* their
cars to wear out, or well respected mechanics?
--
Darin Johnson
Caution! Under no circumstances confuse the mesh with the
interleave operator, except under confusing circumstances!
tie...@hostpop.com
>How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>honest question - not bait.
>
>is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
>changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
>where's my owners manual?)
>
>oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it.
i've run old beater cars well past the 3month/3000 mile oil change intervals.
After a certain point, when you pull the dipstick and run your finger
along it, you can feel lots of little metal filings and see that the
oil starts to thicken so it doesn't flow very well. There were probably
lots of blowby gasses dissolved in the oil as well.
Another thing to consider if you don't change your oil
frequently enough is that the oil becomes acidic and
dissolves metal things like bearings and the inside of your oil pan.
Ever wonder why you hear people complain about having to spend several
hundred dollars to replace the oil pan because it "rotted out" on them
despite the car's "low milage"?
>I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
>ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
>to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
>conditions.
good car maintaince pays off in terms of lower repair costs, better
fuel economy, performance, resale value, etc..
>Keep it full, use good oil (ANY oil with SAE SG or SH grade stamp), use the
>correct weight, don't let it turn into tar, and chances are you'll be OK -
>or better off than you'd think. 'Liquid ball bearings' my arse.
>> This may sound like a basic question to you, but I need to ask.
c...@mvp.net
>
> In article <365A325E...@one.net>, Ron Pieper wrote:
> >How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
> >honest question - not bait.
> >
> >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
> >is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
> >changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
> >where's my owners manual?)
> >
I've never heard of someone breaking an engine because they changed the
oil properly too often. The expense of changing oil is minimal, the
expense of a new engine is huge.
Matthias
> > >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
> > >is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
> > >changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
> > >where's my owners manual?)
> > >
>
> I've never heard of someone breaking an engine because they changed the
> oil properly too often. The expense of changing oil is minimal, the
> expense of a new engine is huge.
Funny that *no* modern car here in Europe requires an oil change every
3000mls (=about 5000km). Typical intervals are 15000km (or once a year),
and there isn't any additional change required if operating under 'severe
conditions'. Volkswagen even allows up to 25000km(!!) for their latest
engines if you use oils that are certified by VW (IIRC only Mobil 1 meets
their specs so far).
bye,
Matthias
--
'98 Ford Puma 1,7
Replace '000' with 'net' for reply
Joe Bays
> >
> > In article <365A325E...@one.net>, Ron Pieper wrote:
> > >How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
> > >honest question - not bait.
none, except maybe on severe service schedule.
> > >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
> > >is a colossal waste of money.
Just how big is colossal? $20 a year too much for the ol' budget? Do you
work at Consumer Reports?
--
Joe Bays
my e-mail address is jnbays at tricon dot net
l'arc
unnecessary environmental waste if you change it earlier than required,
throw away a filter too soon, etc.
rmoburg
>tie...@hostpop.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <365A325E...@one.net>, Ron Pieper wrote:
>> >How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>> >honest question - not bait.
>> >
>> >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
>> >is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers recommend
>> >changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
>> >where's my owners manual?)
>> >
>
>I've never heard of someone breaking an engine because they changed the
>oil properly too often. The expense of changing oil is minimal, the
>expense of a new engine is huge.
And you could change it at 500 miles and be even safer... Despite all
the hype to the contrary modern engines are easier on oil than engines
20 years ago, and oils have improved considerably. Too frequent oil
changes are a waste of time money and resources. Not to mention the
increasing disposal problem..
c...@mvp.net
>
> The cost isn't that minimal. It takes up your time, dirties you up, creates
> unnecessary environmental waste if you change it earlier than required,
> throw away a filter too soon, etc.
>
> >
> >oil properly too often. The expense of changing oil is minimal, the
> >expense of a new engine is huge.
The cost is about $10 if you do it yourself, maybe $20-25 if you pay a
garage. Many garages use the waste oil to heat in the winter - looked
at that myself when I owned a repair shop, but didn't do enough oil
changes to make it worthwhile.
In the US, waste oil is usually recylable - even if you do it yourself,
you can drop it off for recycling at many garages (maybe it is free heat
to them). And I'd rather throw a filter away too soon than end up with
it thoroughly clogged.
Darin Johnson
> Funny that *no* modern car here in Europe requires an oil change every
> 3000mls (=about 5000km). Typical intervals are 15000km (or once a
> year),
I think you're gambling if you go by those recommendations. Changing
just once a year is harsh treatment, no matter how well built the
engine is. If you want your car to last, then be nice to it.
Manufacturers don't want your car to last, they want you to buy a new
one in five years.
Actually, no car anywhere *requires* an oil change :-)
But the original point still stands:
> > I've never heard of someone breaking an engine because they changed the
> > oil properly too often.
--
Darin Johnson
My shoes are too tight, and I have forgotten how to dance -- Babylon 5
Friend
: I've never heard of someone breaking an engine because they changed the
: oil properly too often. The expense of changing oil is minimal, the
: expense of a new engine is huge.
True, but the recommended oil change interval for my '98 Plymouth Breeze
is every 7,000 for average driving. I live in an apartment where doing auto
work in the parking lot is not permitted so I take my car around the corner
to a Jiffy Lube and in ten minutes, the car's oil's changed, and the car is
vaccumed out and the winshield washer fluid container is filled, all for
around $20 so getting the oil change every 3,000 miles is not at all a
hassle for me. I plan to stick with the 3,000 mile schedule for oil changes
until my car's warranty runs out (just in case there are any problems) and
than I will bump it up to six thousand miles.
Ron Pieper
Repeat: "You will find that in most cases, the only persons recommending changing
the oil and filter every 3000 miles are the ones who make money off of it"
And in *most* cases, I'm right.
As far as I'm concerend, the fact that I change my oil every 7,500 or so miles -
really only once or twice going up to 10,000 - and that my engines have lasted
over 100K - means a hell of a lot! These have been VW (incl. a hot-rodded 1.8L
superchaged Corrado - I used Amsoil synthetic in that one) and Ponitac (v. old
215cu.in. 6), and Chevy engines ('92 2.8L V6 in an S10 - a crummy engine). I
don't drive like I'm 18 anymore, but I do use the rev range of the engine. I use
decent oil and filters. Results? No oil consumption worth noting. No blue
smoke, plug fouling, nothing. I commute about 65 miles/day on the interstate
(that's key), I always change the filter when I change the oil, and make sure it's
filled - usually a wasted effort since they haven't used oil.
I don't use a car 3 years and then trade it in, either. My intent has always been
to drive the car into the ground. I keep brakes, suspension, body, interior etc.
all in good shape. I keep records of everything I do. And when I sell a car it
goes fast because it's obvious that from top to bottom it's been maintained well
and not abused.
Want to make a car last? There is a plethora of other things to do rather than
change the oil every 3000 miles. They take more effort, but provide greater
impact. Ask me...
Do I want my engine to wear out? Obviously not. I am my own mechanic and I
really don't want to spend the time and money yanking an engine and having it
rebored, etc. If I felt I was abusing the car, I'd change. I'm 37 - that's
driving for 21 years - and have had no reason to change so far...
Ron
Darin Johnson wrote:
> Not so. Tom & Ray Magliozzi, the guys from Car Talk, recommend this
> as well. They're generally highly regarded, and are ex-mechanics who
> are more on the side of consumers, not the other mechanics. In a
> chapter of their book on making a car last, they state:
>
> Do everything the owner's manual says.
> The only departure from the owner's manual that we suggest is to
> change the oil every 3,000 miles, rather than the 7,500 or 10,000
> that many manuals recommend.
> From my vast (and my brother's half-vast) experience, the
> engines that keep on running forever are the ones in which the oil
> has been changed religiously.
>
> ...
>
> Change the Oil and Filter Every 3,000 Miles and Your Motoring Days
> Will Be Filled with Smiles.
>
> Let it Go to 8 or 10K and You Will Live to Rue the Day.
>
> > I have had several engines get well over 100K miles with *no* ill effects
> > ostensibly caused by 'engine oil breakdown" when changing the oil every 7500
> > to even 10,000 miles (religiously :)) I drive mostly highway in clean
> > conditions.
>
rmoburg
You want to go over why you are changing every 3000 miles again? Your
warranty doesn't require it and yet you are doing it until you
warranty expires? BTW I have never heard of anybody having to provide
proof of oil changes for warranty work,,,
Blue87T
>BTW I have never heard of anybody having to provide
>proof of oil changes for warranty work,,,
You obviously don't know about warranty work or the automotive business.
Ed
> >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000
miles
> >is a colossal waste of money. From my experience manufacturers
recommend
> >changes at intervals up to 6000 or 7500 miles - but not Saturn? ( damn!
> >where's my owners manual?)
> >
the
Ditto. I now have over 117,000 miles on my 1997 Saturn SL1 and have been
changing the oil every 35,000 (or slightly more) miles and the filter every
12,000 (or a little more) miles. Of course I don't use the petroleum junk,
only Amsoil oil and filters.
You can check out my web sites to see where I drive the thing:
http://www.greatnorthwoods.org
http://www.shunpike.org
http://www.edsanders.com
99.9% of the pics taken on these sites since April 1997 were at places
driven to with the Saturn. The rest were walked to or driven to with my
1981 VW Rabbit. (It also gets 35,000 mile oil changes)
I've been doing 35,000 mile oil changes since 1995 or so, I forget when
Amoil introduced their 35,000 mile stuff. Ever since 1976 I've been
changing at 25,000 mile intervals with Amsoil's previous products.
It's amazing how many Luddites out there continue to waste money, waste
time, and destroy the environment by changing at anything less than 25,000
mile intervals!
I've been going for 25K or more intervals now for over 22 years and over
1,500,000 miles with nothing but the best of results. Each vehicle was
driven at least 100K mile by me, several over 200K, and when I got rid of
each (due to rust) the engines were running strong with the same fuel
economy and performance as when I got them.
Those of you who can't seem to understand that technology improves and
advances, go here:
http://www.edsanders.com/car0004.htm
You think you have to drain your engine oil every 3000 miles because
"that's the way it's always been?" Take a look at what you had to do for
lubrication in 1916. Aren't you glad materials and lubrication technology
has improved? Improvement didn't stop in 1916. It didn't stop in 1950. It
hasn't stopped now.
Find your way out of the dark ages into the 20th century. You don't have
long, just around 400 days and you'll miss it!
do_not_...@juno.com
And maybe the spoiled milk will turn fresh tomorrow. :)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
so...@dude13.com
>
>Find your way out of the dark ages into the 20th century. You don't have
>long, just around 400 days and you'll miss it!
>
Amsoil! No! Not again!
Lane Flynn
>changing the oil every 35,000 (or slightly more) miles and the filter every
>12,000 (or a little more) miles
>I've been doing 35,000 mile oil changes since 1995 or so, I forget when
>Amoil introduced their 35,000 mile stuff. Ever since 1976 I've been
>changing at 25,000 mile intervals with Amsoil's previous products.
<more snip>
This ranting about all types of oils except for Amsoil reminds me of a radio
commercial I heard a few years ago back when I lived in Illinois for some
pizza place that I think was in South Beloit. The tag line was something
like "other people's pizza is the perfect gift for pets you don't love."
Very funny commercial.
--Lane Flynn
94 325is with fresh oil
P.S. Remind me never to buy a car from you :)
--
ATTENTION SPAMMERS:
I do not accept bulk email for commercial purposes. Any spam I receive will
be construed as a request for my email testing service, which will cost you
$200 MINIMUM. Thank you.
Reinier
wrote:
>ma...@gmx.000 (Matthias) writes:
>
>> Funny that *no* modern car here in Europe requires an oil change every
>> 3000mls (=about 5000km). Typical intervals are 15000km (or once a
>> year),
>
>I think you're gambling if you go by those recommendations. Changing
>just once a year is harsh treatment, no matter how well built the
No problem at all ! I have heard of many cars with 15K KM intervals
that made many many miles without any problems. I personally had a 2.0
in a mondeo that never had any problems with 15K changes. And it made
quite some rpm's at cruising speed, a lot more than the average
American cruiser. I think 120 Km/hr was around 3000 rpm.
Reinier
wrote:
>> tie...@hostpop.com wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <365A325E...@one.net>, Ron Pieper wrote:
>> > >How many manufacturers require oil changes every 3000 miles? That's an
>> > >honest question - not bait.
>
>none, except maybe on severe service schedule.
>
>> > >Frankly I feel that for *most* vehicles, changing the oil every 3000 miles
>> > >is a colossal waste of money.
>
>Just how big is colossal? $20 a year too much for the ol' budget? Do you
>work at Consumer Reports?
The cost per owner ?? insignificant.
The total cost of all car owners for the rest of time that we need oil
to run our cars (gas) on (say 20 years)??? HUGE ! This is oil that
could otherwise be used to create fuel out of.
Just something to think about. I think 3000 miles is way short. I do
it because my cars drive under what they call severe conditions.
Otherwise ?? I would go for the 6K-8K intervals.
Reinier
Phoenix Arizona
Jody Malinosky
! >Just how big is colossal? $20 a year too much for the ol' budget? Do you
! >work at Consumer Reports?
!
! The cost per owner ?? insignificant.
! The total cost of all car owners for the rest of time that we need oil
! to run our cars (gas) on (say 20 years)??? HUGE ! This is oil that
! could otherwise be used to create fuel out of.
I'm not sure you understand how motor oil (and fossil fuels) in general
work. The only "fuel" that motor oil is used for is as a mix for
two-stroke engines. It's sooty, dirty burning, and a lot of places in CA
are trying to get them outlawed. I wouldn't be surprised if more places
followed suit. Also, motor oil can be recycled.
Fuels (and oils) are distilled from crude into specific molecular weights.
You can't distill motor oil "longer" or "more" to get gasoline. It's
impossible. (discounting any gasoline or any other additive that is put
into motor oil before being sold)
! Just something to think about. I think 3000 miles is way short. I do
! it because my cars drive under what they call severe conditions.
! Otherwise ?? I would go for the 6K-8K intervals.
It's your car: do with it what you want. I just want to toss my $.02
into the pot, though. A friend of the family had a volvo, and changed the
oil only once a year or so. She "blew up" her engine: the oil was so
dirty, it became a thick goo and stopped lubricating the engine because
the system wasn't built to move "goo". By not changing her oil often
enough, she destroyed her engine. The moral? Even Volvo's are subject to
problems caused by not changing your oil often enough. Changing your oil
is preventative maintenance. Think of it as the difference between going
to the dentist once a year as opposed to twice a year.
*****
Jody E. Malinosky
"Black holes are where God divided by zero"
*****
rmoburg
Malinosky) wrote:
> Changing your oil is preventative maintenance. Think of it as the difference between going
>to the dentist once a year as opposed to twice a year.
>
>*****
But if the dentist told you there was no need to come but once a year?
The car manufacturers are saying just that with their ever increasing
change intervals.
Nonnaho
snip
>
> Fuels (and oils) are distilled from crude into specific molecular weights.
> You can't distill motor oil "longer" or "more" to get gasoline. It's
> impossible. (discounting any gasoline or any other additive that is put
> into motor oil before being sold)
>
If I'm not mistaken, they do send heavier "oil" through a "cracker"
that
breaks the hydrocarbons into smaller pieces.
snip
>
> *****
> Jody E. Malinosky
> "Black holes are where God divided by zero"
> *****
--
Nonnaho
Reinier
>Reinier (rruite...@yahoo.com) wrote something similar to:
>! >Just how big is colossal? $20 a year too much for the ol' budget? Do you
>! >work at Consumer Reports?
>!
>! The cost per owner ?? insignificant.
>! The total cost of all car owners for the rest of time that we need oil
>! to run our cars (gas) on (say 20 years)??? HUGE ! This is oil that
>! could otherwise be used to create fuel out of.
>
>I'm not sure you understand how motor oil (and fossil fuels) in general
>work. The only "fuel" that motor oil is used for is as a mix for
>two-stroke engines. It's sooty, dirty burning, and a lot of places in CA
>are trying to get them outlawed. I wouldn't be surprised if more places
>followed suit. Also, motor oil can be recycled.
That's not what I meant. I meant that with the oil that is now used
for motor-oil otherwise could have been used as fuel (ie distilled
into fuel INSTEAD of motoroil) Only two strokes I know of are
lawnmowers and dirtbikes.
>
>Fuels (and oils) are distilled from crude into specific molecular weights.
>You can't distill motor oil "longer" or "more" to get gasoline. It's
>impossible. (discounting any gasoline or any other additive that is put
>into motor oil before being sold)
I said otherwise ... see above
>
>! Just something to think about. I think 3000 miles is way short. I do
>! it because my cars drive under what they call severe conditions.
>! Otherwise ?? I would go for the 6K-8K intervals.
>
>It's your car: do with it what you want. I just want to toss my $.02
>into the pot, though. A friend of the family had a volvo, and changed the
>oil only once a year or so. She "blew up" her engine: the oil was so
>dirty, it became a thick goo and stopped lubricating the engine because
>the system wasn't built to move "goo". By not changing her oil often
>enough, she destroyed her engine. The moral? Even Volvo's are subject to
>problems caused by not changing your oil often enough. Changing your oil
The question is; what is often enough. If a significant part of the
world is changing at longer intervals I would say that is enough
proof.
Mark B.
> Fuels (and oils) are distilled from crude into specific molecular weights.
> You can't distill motor oil "longer" or "more" to get gasoline. It's
> impossible.
Didya ever hear of a "catalytic cracker"?
...I didn't think so,
Mark B.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
| brindle | |
| @ | <Insert witty saying here.> |
| chesco.com | |
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Scharf
>That's not what I meant. I meant that with the oil that is now used
>for motor-oil otherwise could have been used as fuel (ie distilled
>into fuel INSTEAD of motoroil) Only two strokes I know of are
>lawnmowers and dirtbikes.
Outboard engines. There is a move in California to outlaw two
stroke outboard engines. Honda (and others?) make four stroke
outboards, so it isn't a big problem other than the expense.
The problem is that the gasoline additive MTBE is very toxic
and is getting into the water supply.
>>You can't distill motor oil "longer" or "more" to get gasoline. It's
>>impossible. (discounting any gasoline or any other additive that is put
>>into motor oil before being sold)
>
>I said otherwise ... see above
We know. Welcome to the Saturn newsgroup!
>The question is; what is often enough. If a significant part of the
>world is changing at longer intervals I would say that is enough
>proof.
That is the exact question. 3K is a mythical figure extracted from
older engines running on older formulations of oil. What needs to
be determined is at what point is there measurable additional
wear, or other damage to the engine caused by the oil becoming
dirty and contaminated.
Actually the proof is in the studies conducted by testing organizations,
and the opinions of honest mechanics. As with anything there are
exceptions. Saturns are an exception as we've found out. The oil
needs to be changed more often than on regular cars because
of the varnish build-up in the timing chain tensioner bore which
can cause premature timing chain failure. Supposedly synthetics
help here because they have less varnish build-up.
Changing the oil more frequently than necessary isn't 'cheap insurance'
it's throwing money away. That's why it's good that there are now
studies that show that 3K oil changes don't prolong the life of the
engine (well it's not good for all the quick-lube places!).
Steve
----------------------------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages.
First it is ridiculed,
second it is violently opposed,
third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Schopehnauer
----------------------------------------------
Mr. Ed
Nonnaho wrote in message <366878...@all.org>...>snip
>
>>
>> Fuels (and oils) are distilled from crude into specific molecular
weights.
>> impossible. (discounting any gasoline or any other additive that is put
>> into motor oil before being sold)
>>
>
>that
>breaks the hydrocarbons into smaller pieces.
Having worked in a refinery in Ontario for ten years ,I know that the crude
that they derive gasoline from is a different crude than that which they
make lubricating oil out of.Lubricating oil crude is definitely a different
type of crude. And the "cracking "process doesn`t break down the different
oils in the crude. What it does is work like a still. The lighter
hydrocarbons come off first, eg. butane .propane, then naphtha, then
gasoline , then fuel, diesel oil, (same)then the bunker oils and lastly
pitch for paving roads. That`s all the cracker does.It does not create
different products out of crude.It just distills them.
As far as changing oil every 3000 miles. I have changed mine on my `86
Accord every 2500 miles or 4000klms. because my driving is severe service
driving,(mostly city)I now have 200,000 MILES(320,000klms) on the car and it
still only uses 1 cup of oil between changes and STILL cruises at 100mph+
when I want it to . Where legal.
Ed.Ontario.Canada
Ron Pieper
tar is not support to change your oil every 3000 miles. It is support to either
know how to look at a dipstick occasionally (as well as an odometer), and make a
pretty simple decision. What she let happen constitutes abuse and, frankly,
stupidity.
One could go to the dentist every two weeks and not have any better teeth than
if he or she went every 6 months or a year. You can go ahead and change your
oil every 3000 miles; for me it's an unnecessary.waste of time and money.
Ron
Jody Malinosky wrote:<snip>
> . A friend of the family had a volvo, and changed the
> oil only once a year or so. She "blew up" her engine: the oil was so
> dirty, it became a thick goo and stopped lubricating the engine because
> the system wasn't built to move "goo". By not changing her oil often
> enough, she destroyed her engine. The moral? Even Volvo's are subject to
> problems caused by not changing your oil often enough. Changing your oil
Blue87T
> You can go ahead and change your
>oil every 3000 miles; for me it's an unnecessary.waste of time and money.
>
>
If you own a Saturn and don't change your oil every 3 K, I sure hope that you
not here in a few years bitching that your car is using oil or the timing chain
went.
Gordon McGrew
> As far as changing oil every 3000 miles. I have changed mine on my `86
>Accord every 2500 miles or 4000klms. because my driving is severe service
>driving,(mostly city)I now have 200,000 MILES(320,000klms) on the car and it
>still only uses 1 cup of oil between changes and STILL cruises at 100mph+
>when I want it to . Where legal.
>Ed.Ontario.Canada
Where is that legal. I know it may be de facto legal on the 401 (the
fastest highway in N. America as far as I know.) or quasi-legal in
Montana,but I don't know anywhere you can drive at 100+ with
absolutely no chance of getting a ticket.
Harry C. King III
Steven M. Scharf <sch...@nospam.grin.net> wrote:
>Reinier wrote in message <36689bdf...@news.impulsedata.net>...
>
>>lawnmowers and dirtbikes.
>
>
>Outboard engines. There is a move in California to outlaw two
>stroke outboard engines. Honda (and others?) make four stroke
>outboards, so it isn't a big problem other than the expense.
>and is getting into the water supply.
I think that Yamaha came out with a 2-cycle outboard engine that had a
direct injection of hte oil (i.e. you didn't mix them) that supposedly
vastly cut down emissions.
Harry
--
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up on reading."
W.C. Fields
Jim K
and not 3K changes. I had an 85 Cavalier that went 120K without a
tuneup or any other maintenance except for oil, antifreeze, and
muffler changes. When I sold it in 95, it still had the original spark
plugs and was still getting the original mileage. It was a freak. I'd
like to expect my 95 SW2 to last like that until 05, but I know
better.
I got one them stupid * in my name
Jim Kajpust - Personal Freedoms - Michigan
http://www.concentric.net/~jkajpust
Jody Malinosky
! The example of your friend wasting her engine because she let her oil turn into
! tar is not support to change your oil every 3000 miles. It is support to either
Actually, it does: She didn't change her oil for a year (which is one of
the "recommendations" I've heard here).
! know how to look at a dipstick occasionally (as well as an odometer), and make a
! pretty simple decision. What she let happen constitutes abuse and, frankly,
! stupidity.
I'll not argue that it wasn't stupid, but I don't go checking the
viscosity of my oil every fill-up. A quick check of the oil level is
enough for me. And if I was able to go a year without changing it, why
wouldn't I wait another year to change it again?
! One could go to the dentist every two weeks and not have any better teeth than
! if he or she went every 6 months or a year. You can go ahead and change your
! oil every 3000 miles; for me it's an unnecessary.waste of time and money.
And that is my point. You are more than welcome to not "waste" your
money. I do. And my engine will probably last longer than yours (barring
any problems other than oil-related).
Jody Malinosky
! I'm guessing you can find examples to support both views -- 3K changes
! and not 3K changes. I had an 85 Cavalier that went 120K without a
I'd bet that you are right. However, just because a vehicle has a
recommended oil change at a smaller interval than others doesn't mean it's
a bad engine. And the interval for engines that are driven under my
driving conditions (95% freeway) have a recommended change interval of 6k
miles.
! tuneup or any other maintenance except for oil, antifreeze, and
! muffler changes. When I sold it in 95, it still had the original spark
! plugs and was still getting the original mileage. It was a freak. I'd
! like to expect my 95 SW2 to last like that until 05, but I know
! better.
!
!
! I got one them stupid * in my name
! Jim Kajpust - Personal Freedoms - Michigan
! http://www.concentric.net/~jkajpust
Andrew M. Radin
>> If I'm not mistaken, they do send heavier "oil" through a "cracker" that
>>breaks the hydrocarbons into smaller pieces.
>Having worked in a refinery in Ontario for ten years ,I know that the crude
>that they derive gasoline from is a different crude than that which they
>make lubricating oil out of.Lubricating oil crude is definitely a different
>type of crude. And the "cracking "process doesn`t break down the different
>oils in the crude. What it does is work like a still. The lighter
>hydrocarbons come off first, eg. butane .propane, then naphtha, then
>gasoline , then fuel, diesel oil, (same)then the bunker oils and lastly
>pitch for paving roads. That`s all the cracker does.It does not create
>different products out of crude.It just distills them.
I think you're confused...there are distillation columns, which work exactly
like you describe, and there are catalytic crackers, which break down the oil
into smaller chunks. You may not have worked with one, but they do exist.
Maybe things have changed since you worked there.
andy r.
Ron Pieper
>
> not here in a few years bitching that your car is using oil or the timing chain
> went.
Ok, consider me warned...I am consuming a quart about every 2000 miles, which I
consider high for nearly any engine. I got the car with 82K, it now has 102K.
Consumption has not increased since I've had the car. Plugs don't seem fouled, no
blue smoke at startup, under acceleration, or ever for that matter. Inside of
tailpipe is black, not the beige I would look for. Question: should I change the
valve seals or let it go? In other words, how likely is the problem to be the
valve seals, if you even consider it a problem?
THanks
Ron
Blue87T
>I am consuming a quart about every 2000 miles,
I know you don't want to hear this , but that is within Saturn specs.
>Question: should I change the
>valve seals or let it go? In other words, how likely is the problem to be
>the
>valve seals, if you even consider it a problem?
Valve seals are part of the problem. The oil rings are seized , most likely by
now. The engine block needs to be PROPERLY honed, valve seals replaced and
reringed. I would just live with the 1 qt per 2K for now. But thats just me.
Wilf Lee
wrote:
> Ok, consider me warned...I am consuming a quart about every 2000 miles, which I
>consider high for nearly any engine. I got the car with 82K, it now has 102K.
Question comes down to economics. How long do you plan to keep the
car? With 102K miles on the car, I believe the body, chassis,
suspension and many other parts are beginning to show wear. Would be
great if engine and the rest of the car wore out at the same time.
But wouldn't it be a shame if you paid big $$$ to have the valve seals
and rings replaced only to have other major problems develop and you
had to scrap the car with a nearly new engine?
regards,
WL
My e-mail address is #chopstix@#idirect.#com.
Address is modified to prevent spamming.
Remove the 3 # signs from my address before sending.
Ron Pieper
No recommendation ever came from me to change the oil only once a year.
Changing one's oil every 3000 miles is foolproof. I don't feel that it will make
one's engine last significantly longer than changing it every 6000 miles (given my
conditions, which are 80% highway trips of 30 miles +, reflecting my own experiences).
Someone commented on a past posting of mine that my engines - several over 100K miles
with absolutely no problems, oil changes at 6K to 7.5K generally (don't hang me if I
am inaccurate here, I did not browse the archive to verify this) - are invalid; I
suppose this person felt that my experience was the exception rather than the rule.
This is BS.
I will restate my original opinion on this, and I know some disagree. *Most* [not
all] of those who recommend an oil change every 3000 miles are the ones who make money
off of your doing so.
Use the manufacturers recommended interval. Use a good grade of oil, keep it full and
prevent it from turning into tar and you will very likely be OK.
Blue: I know you disagree but am I right in concluding that Saturn engines are a) more
prone to consume oil than the average modern engine and b) less forgiving to those who
fail to keep it full of oil?
Ron
Jody Malinosky wrote:
Blue87T
>Blue: I know you disagree but am I right in concluding that Saturn engines
>are a) more
>prone to consume oil than the average modern engine and b) less forgiving to
>those who
>fail to keep it full of oil?
The newer Saturn engines consume ALOT less oil (96-up). I would say the older
ones sometimes are prone to gobbling oil, but not the new ones. But then again
the car company is still a baby, they will make mistakes. Certain GM engines
have been around forever and they still have problems.
The many issue with oil change/ engine longevity is the effects on the timing
chain guides. The guides seem to be very unforgiving of excessive oil intervals
since they are plastic and become brittle when exposed to corrosive , dirty
oil. So, yes they are sensitive to oil, but then again I saw a Grand Prix at
Pontiac die after leaving the oil in it for 13K.
mey...@my-dejanews.com
> Having worked in a refinery in Ontario for ten years ,I know that the crude
> that they derive gasoline from is a different crude than that which they
> make lubricating oil out of.Lubricating oil crude is definitely a different
> type of crude. And the "cracking "process doesn`t break down the different
> oils in the crude. What it does is work like a still. The lighter
> hydrocarbons come off first, eg. butane .propane, then naphtha, then
> gasoline , then fuel, diesel oil, (same)then the bunker oils and lastly
> pitch for paving roads. That`s all the cracker does.It does not create
> different products out of crude.It just distills them.
Thank you very much. I was going to post this information but you did it much
more clearly than I could have.
Bob
John Feiereisen
wrote:
>Having worked in a refinery in Ontario for ten years ,I know that the crude
>that they derive gasoline from is a different crude than that which they
>make lubricating oil out of.Lubricating oil crude is definitely a different
>type of crude.
Economics and/or logistics may result in different crudes being used
for producing fuels and lubes, due to differing proportions of heavy
and light components. But generally it's possible to refine the
entire spectrum of petroleum products from just about any crude.
>And the "cracking "process doesn`t break down the different
>oils in the crude. What it does is work like a still. The lighter
>hydrocarbons come off first, eg. butane .propane, then naphtha, then
>gasoline , then fuel, diesel oil, (same)then the bunker oils and lastly
>pitch for paving roads. That`s all the cracker does.It does not create
>different products out of crude.It just distills them.
Cracking and distillation are two fundamentally different processes.
Distillation merely separates components by exploiting differences in
boiling points. Cracking actually breaks long HC chains into shorter
ones.
A decent intro to what a refinery is can be found at:
http://www.chevron.com/explore/index.html
--
John
Note: Email address munged in an attempt (probably futile) to
foil spammers. There are no digits in the real address.
Nonnaho
>
> In <ZCga2.820$04....@news13.ispnews.com>, "Mr. Ed" <mr...@icom.ca>
> wrote:
snip
> >And the "cracking "process doesn`t break down the different
> >oils in the crude. What it does is work like a still. The lighter
> >hydrocarbons come off first, eg. butane .propane, then naphtha, then
> >gasoline , then fuel, diesel oil, (same)then the bunker oils and lastly
> >pitch for paving roads. That`s all the cracker does.It does not create
> >different products out of crude.It just distills them.
>
> Cracking and distillation are two fundamentally different processes.
> Distillation merely separates components by exploiting differences in
> boiling points. Cracking actually breaks long HC chains into shorter
> ones.
>
> A decent intro to what a refinery is can be found at:
>
> http://www.chevron.com/explore/index.html
>
> --
> John
Thanks John, I thought I saw something on TV about cracking, but
when someone says "Having worked in a refinery in Ontario for ten
years",
it's easy to believe that they know what they're talking about. I guess
the link to Chevron settles the matter. I also heard on TV that it
takes more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than it does to make
a gallon of gasoline. I would guess the cracking process is responsible
for this ( if it's true ).
Nonnaho
white...@my-dejanews.com
rapi...@one.netXXX.com wrote:
...
> Changing one's oil every 3000 miles is foolproof. I don't feel that it will
>make
> one's engine last significantly longer than changing it every 6000 miles
>(given my
> conditions, which are 80% highway trips of 30 miles +, reflecting my own
>experiences).
But those of us who live in medium size cities often end up driving short
trips ( < 5 miles ) and only 20% highway and have cold winters, end up being
told to use the severe (short term 3K/3 month schedule). I have a 12 year
old Olds Cutlass Cruiser (Ciera) wagon with 100K on the 2.5L 4 banger that
has been used in such a fashion and _always_ changed at 3 (once in a while
4) month intervals. Uses no oil and has had no problems other than a
crappy head gasket blowout in '90. My '94 Safari owner's manual recommends
the same schedule. I changed the oil in the Safari last time after exactly
3 months and 3100 miles. It looked like really really bad stuff..very black
and heavy. I'd rather get that corrosive stuff out early rather than
later thank you! Stop and go driving with short trips is hell on an engine
and its oil. But I too expect to keep a vehicle for more than 10 years and
more than 100 K miles. Learned the hard way that for the way that my family
uses cars in this midwest city that the 3K/3M oil change schedule is the
only one that lets us do this.
> I will restate my original opinion on this, and I know some disagree. *Most*
>[not
> all] of those who recommend an oil change every 3000 miles are the ones who
>make money
> off of your doing so.
Seems to me that rather, car manufacturers have gotten more realistic on
severe usage users and only allow the 6 month/6K schedule for the long
trippers with the easy, fully warmed up, mileage.
> Use the manufacturers recommended interval. Use a good grade of oil, keep it
>full and
> prevent it from turning into tar and you will very likely be OK.
And change it according to the usage schedule - mostly short use the
severe schedule, mostly highway and never cold - use the longer one.
> Blue: I know you disagree but am I right in concluding that Saturn engines are
>a) more prone to consume oil than the average modern engine and
Not (yet) on my 92 SL2 with 44 K.
>b) less forgiving to those who fail to keep it full of oil?
Dunno...never let it happen.
_____________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White
white...@my-dejanews.com
blu...@aol.com (Blue87T) wrote:
...
> The many issue with oil change/ engine longevity is the effects on the timing
> chain guides. The guides seem to be very unforgiving of excessive oil
>intervals
> since they are plastic and become brittle when exposed to corrosive , dirty
> oil.
Thanks Blue87T,
This is a very credible scenario and comes from a credible source!
No problem accepting "the Truth" from someone like you - a real
Saturn mechanic, unlike mindless ramblings from a dishonest troll with
no Saturn experience and a agenda to "save the world" from the Saturn
brainwashers and the "Dummy Corp." BTW this intuitively obvious, as
to identity individual is in fact seeming to try to sound much more
rational of late. Maybe as Jay has supposed, he is trying to clean
up his act and cover his tracks in order to survive Usenet
postings, employment investigations.
The Reynas
I've been following this thread closely as it developed and here is my
dime's worth. Changing your oil every 3/3K here in Central Texas costs
approximately (prices shlightly higher if you use synthetic):
-$24 at the retailer.
-$21 at most express oil change chains.
-$12 if you do it yourself.
This averages to be about $19 per oil change either way. Assuming you go
the 3 months before reaching 3K, that's about $6.33 per month or $1.58 per
week. What's the cost of a burger combo at the local grease pit? My point
being that for a relatively inexpensive procedure that yet plays such a
*vital* role in your engine's performance and ultimate longevity, why not
change it at 3/3K? I realize the debate will always be. All I ask is that
you look at the bottom figure and think of it as preventive maintenance
(like brushing your teeth).
Cheers,
Eugene
97 SW2 (changed faithfully at 3/3K, now with synthetic)
Nonnaho wrote in message <366C3C...@all.org>...
rmoburg
<ther...@balista.com> wrote:
>Eugene ther...@balista.com added:
>
>I've been following this thread closely as it developed and here is my
>dime's worth. Changing your oil every 3/3K here in Central Texas costs
>approximately (prices shlightly higher if you use synthetic):
>-$24 at the retailer.
>-$21 at most express oil change chains.
>-$12 if you do it yourself.
>This averages to be about $19 per oil change either way. Assuming you go
>the 3 months before reaching 3K, that's about $6.33 per month or $1.58 per
>week. What's the cost of a burger combo at the local grease pit? My point
>being that for a relatively inexpensive procedure that yet plays such a
>*vital* role in your engine's performance and ultimate longevity, why not
>change it at 3/3K? I realize the debate will always be. All I ask is that
>you look at the bottom figure and think of it as preventive maintenance
>(like brushing your teeth).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Eugene
>97 SW2 (changed faithfully at 3/3K, now with synthetic)
>
IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
Combustion control has come light years since the days of 3K changes,
we are no longer using leaded gas, machining tolerances and final
assembly changed a great deal, fuel injection is a 100 times more
precise than a carb was, and finally oil has come a long way. It
wouldn't surprise me to see the car manufacturers come out with a 15K
standard in the near future.
Frank Yang
rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com says...
>
>IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
>mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
>engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
>at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
>you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
>
>Combustion control has come light years since the days of 3K changes,
>we are no longer using leaded gas, machining tolerances and final
>assembly changed a great deal, fuel injection is a 100 times more
>precise than a carb was, and finally oil has come a long way. It
>wouldn't surprise me to see the car manufacturers come out with a 15K
>standard in the near future.
IMO, the 3k-mile/3-month oil change interval is typically desired for most
driving condition. Those who drive in smooth highway traffic can probably
get away with 6k miles.
Here's my personal example on how driving condition can affect oil change:
I usually have 2.5k-mile/3-month oil change during the last 4 years. I
now drive 6 miles stop-n-go each way to/from work during the week. It's
only been 1,100 miles since the last change. The oil looks like it's been
through 3k+ miles already. I'll have the oil changed on the 21st,
effectively a 1.3k-mile/2-month oil change.
I know it looks silly to change oil at mere 1,300 miles, but the oil just
does not look good.
- Frank ('95 SL1)
Johnson, J.
>
> I know it looks silly to change oil at mere 1,300 miles, but the oil just
> does not look good.
>
This is ridiculous. You dont have a race engine and even they
can run the synthetics thru a weekend unless something breaks.
I run my car at sustained high rpm very often. I get a lot of
high speed mileage on my car. Yet, I follow specified oil change
intervals. So do many other people I know who have high performance
cars [and some much higher performance than my car]. I can see changing
out a little early to have peace of mind, but 1300?
OTOH, I dont need an engine to last 500K mi. or more.
Hogan Whittall
: IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
: mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
: engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
: at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
: you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
You should've looked at your owner's manual before posting this.
Both of my vehicles, a '93 Probe and '98 Cherokee, get oil changes between
3k and 5k miles (Mobil 1). Why? They both fall into severe service,
which the manual says should have the oil changed at 3,000 miles.
non-severe service should be 7500 miles.
I don't see any "dramatic" difference in change intervals. Looks like it
hasn't changed in quite a while, actually. Who wrote the manual? The
manufacturer. Do we buy oil from the car manufacturer? No. So how can
you say 3000 mile intervals are a) old myths b) marketing ?
Next time, do a little reading and research on your own...you'd be
surprised at what you find and then you can save yourself from posting
opinion shot down by, hmmm, fact.
--
---
Hogan Whittall
ho...@primenet.com
'98 XJ
y_...@hotmail.com
us03...@mindspring.com.NOT.GOV (Frank Yang) wrote:
> In article <366d4616...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com says...
> >
> >mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
> >engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
> >at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
> >you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
> >
> >we are no longer using leaded gas, machining tolerances and final
> >assembly changed a great deal, fuel injection is a 100 times more
> >precise than a carb was, and finally oil has come a long way. It
> >wouldn't surprise me to see the car manufacturers come out with a 15K
> >standard in the near future.
>
> IMO, the 3k-mile/3-month oil change interval is typically desired for most
> driving condition. Those who drive in smooth highway traffic can probably
> get away with 6k miles.
Most manufacturers selling to the US market specify 7500 miles given so-called
"normal" service conditions. It's my feeling that if all you did was drive
200+ mile trips - and NOTHING else, 10K (perhaps more) mile oil changes on
conventional motor oil would probably be fine too.
> Here's my personal example on how driving condition can affect oil change:
> I usually have 2.5k-mile/3-month oil change during the last 4 years. I
> now drive 6 miles stop-n-go each way to/from work during the week. It's
> only been 1,100 miles since the last change. The oil looks like it's been
> through 3k+ miles already. I'll have the oil changed on the 21st,
> effectively a 1.3k-mile/2-month oil change.
Well - color isn't necessarily the best indication of whether a motor oil
still has useful life. Of course you could try the oil analysis route,
but an analysis costs about what 4 quarts of synthetic motor oil does. A
good deal of the color could be due to small particles that have no bearing
on the performance of the oil or engine wear. OTOH - oil changes are cheap -
especially if you do them yourself.
> I know it looks silly to change oil at mere 1,300 miles, but the oil just
> does not look good.
I've done it too. Don't really know what came over me.
As for the Europe vs US argument elsewhere in this thread, that is moot. I
understand that most Europeans don't keep their cars for very long, and their
minimum standards (and prices) for motor oil are higher. It doesn't seem that
ultimate engine durability is that important there. OTOH - a good many
Americans keep their cars for up to 20 years and drive 300,000+ miles on them.
Engine rebuilders tend to do a good business on ring and valve jobs - good
regular oil changes can reduce or perhaps eliminate the need for this.
Yu-Ping Wang
Santa Clara, California
Jeffrey J. Potoff
>
> In article <366d4616...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com says...
> >
> >IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
> >mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
> >engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
> >at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
> >you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
> >
> >Combustion control has come light years since the days of 3K changes,
> >we are no longer using leaded gas, machining tolerances and final
> >assembly changed a great deal, fuel injection is a 100 times more
> >precise than a carb was, and finally oil has come a long way. It
> >wouldn't surprise me to see the car manufacturers come out with a 15K
> >standard in the near future.
>
> IMO, the 3k-mile/3-month oil change interval is typically desired for most
> driving condition. Those who drive in smooth highway traffic can probably
> get away with 6k miles.
>
> I usually have 2.5k-mile/3-month oil change during the last 4 years. I
> now drive 6 miles stop-n-go each way to/from work during the week. It's
> only been 1,100 miles since the last change. The oil looks like it's been
> through 3k+ miles already. I'll have the oil changed on the 21st,
> effectively a 1.3k-mile/2-month oil change.
>
> does not look good.
How the oil "looks" has nothing to do with its ability to
lubricate. The only real way to know how often to change your
oil is to have an engine oil analysis performed. Most people,
however, seem to prefer mythology to science.
Jeff
Jeffrey J. Potoff
>
> rmoburg <rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com> wrote:
>
> : IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
> : mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
> : engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
> : at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
> : you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
>
>
> Both of my vehicles, a '93 Probe and '98 Cherokee, get oil changes between
> 3k and 5k miles (Mobil 1). Why? They both fall into severe service,
> which the manual says should have the oil changed at 3,000 miles.
>
> non-severe service should be 7500 miles.
>
> I don't see any "dramatic" difference in change intervals. Looks like it
> hasn't changed in quite a while, actually. Who wrote the manual? The
> manufacturer. Do we buy oil from the car manufacturer? No. So how can
> you say 3000 mile intervals are a) old myths b) marketing ?
>
> Next time, do a little reading and research on your own...you'd be
> surprised at what you find and then you can save yourself from posting
> opinion shot down by, hmmm, fact.
The only "fact" is that you can only really determine the proper
interval for oil changes by performing a periodic engine oil
analysis. Anything else and you're just grasping at straws.
Jeff
rmoburg
>rmoburg <rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com> wrote:
>
>: IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
>: mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
>: engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
>: at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
>: you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
>
>You should've looked at your owner's manual before posting this.
I have it states 7.5K for "normal" duty...
>Both of my vehicles, a '93 Probe and '98 Cherokee, get oil changes between
>3k and 5k miles (Mobil 1). Why? They both fall into severe service,
>which the manual says should have the oil changed at 3,000 miles.
GEE! What a surprise!
>non-severe service should be 7500 miles.
Exactly....
>I don't see any "dramatic" difference in change intervals. Looks like it
>hasn't changed in quite a while, actually. Who wrote the manual? The
>manufacturer. Do we buy oil from the car manufacturer? No. So how can
>you say 3000 mile intervals are a) old myths b) marketing ?
You want to try that again???????
>Next time, do a little reading and research on your own...you'd be
>surprised at what you find and then you can save yourself from posting
>opinion shot down by, hmmm, fact.
Even your own manual says 7.5K... What facts are you quoting? Care to
tell me what you think "severe" duty is? Do you see anywhere that I
said anything about severe duty? You are mixing apples and oranges.
"HMMM" "fact" is you proved my point. Care to see what is coming out
of Europe on changes? Want to bet on what way change intervals are
going?
Care to comment further? Your own manual says 7.5K for cripes sake?
What do you think it would of said 10 years back? 20? 30? Are you
noticing a trend?
Mr. Ed
have changed my oil at 4000klm intervals for the last 9 years on my `86
Accord.I now have 200,000 miles on it (320,000 klms and it still only uses
less than a half cup of oil between changes. Of course I change the filter
at the same time.
You can buy oil and filter at Walmart for less than $10.00 Can.(name brand
like Quaker State,etc.)
THE CAR STILL CRUISES AT 100+ MPH(MONTANA ) NO PROBLEMO.
Ed.Ontario.Canada
Robert Erck
rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com (rmoburg) wrote:
[...]
>
> IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
> mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
> engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
> at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
> you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
[...]
---------------
There was an interesting article on oil change intervals in the Sept 98
issue of "Lubes & Greases."
In the good old days, 500 miles in winter and 1000 miles in summer. But
very few people changed that frequently. Maybe that's why cars only went
30,000 before an overhaul.
Into the 60s,you went 3000 or 4000, except for some oddball cars under
severe service; these wanted 500. In the 70s, up to 5000 or 6000. In the
80s you could get away with intervals from 3000 (severe service) to 10000
(easy driving). The 90s are almost identical. 7500 for most Mfgs
nowadays.
Dr. Bob
Greg
rmoburg wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:48:02 -0600, "The Reynas"
> <ther...@balista.com> wrote:
>
> >Eugene ther...@balista.com added:
> >
> >I've been following this thread closely as it developed and here is my
> >dime's worth. Changing your oil every 3/3K here in Central Texas costs
> >approximately (prices shlightly higher if you use synthetic):
> >-$24 at the retailer.
> >-$21 at most express oil change chains.
> >-$12 if you do it yourself.
> >This averages to be about $19 per oil change either way. Assuming you go
> >the 3 months before reaching 3K, that's about $6.33 per month or $1.58 per
> >week. What's the cost of a burger combo at the local grease pit? My point
> >being that for a relatively inexpensive procedure that yet plays such a
> >*vital* role in your engine's performance and ultimate longevity, why not
> >change it at 3/3K? I realize the debate will always be. All I ask is that
> >you look at the bottom figure and think of it as preventive maintenance
> >(like brushing your teeth).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Eugene
> >97 SW2 (changed faithfully at 3/3K, now with synthetic)
> >
>
> IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
> mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
> engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
> at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
> you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
>
Siddiq
1000kms (not miles). The oil would get really nasty. Currently, with the
Caravan and Tercel, 4k miles present no problem. MB, IIRC, and BMW, have
sensors that determine when to change the oil depending on conditions. So,
1. new engines need fewer changes, everthing else being equal;
2. more tolerant of longer changes (like the occasion overshoot by 1k
miles);
3. dependant on op. conditions (a xcountry drive, ~3600miles) won't
require a change while the same miles in commutes/stop/go would require a
change.
Bottom line, it all depends.
--
Siddiq's random thought for Tuesday, the 8th of December:
The Big Three D's sum up my musical tastes:
1. Def Leppard; 2. Depeche Mode and 3. Duran Duran
Siddiq
after ~3-4 months and I dunno, 4000 miles. What bugged me was that
initially I had grit in the oil, but the oil was so slick I had trouble
turning the filter off. That seems odd--oil is really slick /and/ grit.
Was it because I had added hald a quart a week ago and the filter was
bypassing or is there something else. Also, I noticed that there was some
sort of a sound as I took the new filter out of the box. Was that from the
bypass valve? Third, is oil filtered from the inside out or outside in
(which is better)?
Hogan Whittall
: I have it states 7.5K for "normal" duty...
: >Both of my vehicles, a '93 Probe and '98 Cherokee, get oil changes between
: >3k and 5k miles (Mobil 1). Why? They both fall into severe service,
: >which the manual says should have the oil changed at 3,000 miles.
: GEE! What a surprise!
: >non-severe service should be 7500 miles.
: Exactly....
: Even your own manual says 7.5K... What facts are you quoting? Care to
: tell me what you think "severe" duty is? Do you see anywhere that I
: said anything about severe duty? You are mixing apples and oranges.
You seem to think the 3000-mile service schedule is there for looks only
and can be ignored. Guess what? Probably 80%-90% of the cars on the road
fall into severe service.
Funny how you ignore the truth and only comment on what makes you look
more right. Too bad the issue isn't just black or white.
It's hard to discuss this issue with someone that has no clue what they're
talking about...come back when you can be more objective.
The 3000-mile interval is there for a reason. I doubt you've even read
your own manual to see if your car falls into that category. What if it
does? Are you going to shrug it off and think to yourself "Damn engineers
don't know what they're talking about" and continue to let your oil go for
too long between changes?
I see a person too stubborn to admit they're wrong about the majority of
cars and oil changes.
You can treat your car however you want. I'll change my oil when my
manual says so. Happy Holidays!
Blue87T
< Left out incorrect opinions>
If you let your Saturn go on 7500 mile oil changes on conventional oil you are
going to have problems.
rmoburg
>rmoburg <rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com> wrote:
>
>: I have it states 7.5K for "normal" duty...
>
>: >Both of my vehicles, a '93 Probe and '98 Cherokee, get oil changes between
>: >3k and 5k miles (Mobil 1). Why? They both fall into severe service,
>: >which the manual says should have the oil changed at 3,000 miles.
>
>: GEE! What a surprise!
>
>: >non-severe service should be 7500 miles.
>
>
>: Exactly....
>
>: Even your own manual says 7.5K... What facts are you quoting? Care to
>: tell me what you think "severe" duty is? Do you see anywhere that I
>: said anything about severe duty? You are mixing apples and oranges.
>
>You seem to think the 3000-mile service schedule is there for looks only
>and can be ignored. Guess what? Probably 80%-90% of the cars on the road
>fall into severe service.
>
And there is where your argument crumbles to the ground...
I would guess the ratio is exactly reversed...
Reinier
III) wrote:
>In article <74be5c$2ng$1...@news.iswest.net>,
>Steven M. Scharf <sch...@nospam.grin.net> wrote:
>>Reinier wrote in message <36689bdf...@news.impulsedata.net>...
>>
>>>into fuel INSTEAD of motoroil) Only two strokes I know of are
>>>lawnmowers and dirtbikes.
>>
>>
>>Outboard engines. There is a move in California to outlaw two
>>stroke outboard engines. Honda (and others?) make four stroke
>>outboards, so it isn't a big problem other than the expense.
>>The problem is that the gasoline additive MTBE is very toxic
>>and is getting into the water supply.
>
>I think that Yamaha came out with a 2-cycle outboard engine that had a
>direct injection of hte oil (i.e. you didn't mix them) that supposedly
>vastly cut down emissions.
>
Several two stroke engines have this, but they still burn the two
stroke oil. You can not get around that with two stroke. The injection
might make it more accurate at what is needed.
Reinier
rmoburg
wrote:
>15k oil changes ? never see it ! Greg.
>
Might not see it here but, I believe it's already happening in
Europe...
Steven M. Scharf
rmoburg wrote in message <366e0e15...@enews.newsguy.com>...
The guy in the next office from me is from Italy and he said
that oil is $8 per quart. At that price, people are less cavalier
about changing oil to make themselves feel good.
He keeps a car there for his vacations and
he also said tires are really expensive there, and when
he went back one time to visit he went to Costco first
and bought two tires to bring back with him in his luggage.
He said that the airline wouldn't let him bring cases of oil
though.
Steve
Harry C. King III
>>and can be ignored. Guess what? Probably 80%-90% of the cars on the road
>>fall into severe service.
>
I would disagree. But, you are talking about guessing. Most of my
mileage comes on the highway. BUT, my city driving is such that I fall
into the severe category. I typically drive 300 highway miles a week, and
50 city miles a week. The thing of it is that my city driving constitutes
short trips, which is especially harsh on engines.
But aside from my experience, I would bet that the 80-90% severe duty is
closer to being right. Of course, I live in Atlanta, where traffic may be
worse than other places, but people commute back and forth everyday,
sitting in rush hour traffic. Here, that involves a LOT of stop and go
driving. Also, look at folks that live in the suburbs. They usually live
somewhat close to work. My Father lives about 1.5 miles from work, and my
mother lives about 2 miles from work. That would constitute severe
driving conditions. Most folks, from what I have seen, who live in the
same suburbs they work in, drive very short distances to work. And those
who commute often drive in horrible stop and go rush hour traffic.
Harry
But, as mentioned, these are all guesses, and I don't give a rat's rear
how often you change your oil, I'm going to take care of my cars.
--
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up on reading."
W.C. Fields
Frank Yang
M3-jo...@hft.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de-PROVOS says...
>
>Frank Yang wrote:
>>
>
>> I know it looks silly to change oil at mere 1,300 miles, but the oil just
>> does not look good.
>>
>
>
>can run the synthetics thru a weekend unless something breaks.
>
>I run my car at sustained high rpm very often. I get a lot of
>high speed mileage on my car. Yet, I follow specified oil change
>intervals. So do many other people I know who have high performance
>cars [and some much higher performance than my car]. I can see changing
>out a little early to have peace of mind, but 1300?
>
>OTOH, I dont need an engine to last 500K mi. or more.
Perhaps you didn't read my entire post. Those 1,300 miles are all in rush
hour stop-n-go traffic. No high rpms to clear the carbon. Thus the oil got
deterioated real quick. And no, I am not using synthetic.
Harry C. King III
>>15k oil changes ? never see it ! Greg.
>>
>
>
>Might not see it here but, I believe it's already happening in
>Europe...
I saw this not long ago. VW has one, don't they? BUT, there is only one
oil that is certified to do that. Many people have used Amsoil for
extended drain intervals (35,000 miles, I believe) and have gotten more
life out of their engines (mostly trucking companies). If you use the
right oil, then it is very possible.
But, many people don't change their oil at the proper intervals, either.
I drove a van the other day (doing some part time work) that had 21,000
miles on the oil. Pople just don't take care of their cars.
Harry
y_...@hotmail.com
Siddiq <sidd...@student.ucr.edu> wrote:
>Third, is oil filtered from the inside out or outside in
> (which is better)?
Outside in for most filters. The rubber or silicone check valve
on most filters will only let the oil flow freely through the little
(outside) holes found in most filters. The clean oil comes through the
inside threaded hole.
Stuart Hall
(rmoburg) wrote:
>On 8 Dec 1998 19:10:56 GMT, Hogan Whittall <ho...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>rmoburg <rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com> wrote:
>>
>>: IMO it is just not needed and is a waste of more than money. The 3,000
>>: mile interval is a relic of a different time in automotive
>>: engineering. It is only being clung to by people that sell oil. Look
>>: at current manufacturers requirements, and, I'm guessing, but I think
>>: you will see the change intervals go up dramatically from here.
>>
>>You should've looked at your owner's manual before posting this.
>
>snip
>
>"HMMM" "fact" is you proved my point. Care to see what is coming out
>of Europe on changes? Want to bet on what way change intervals are
>going?
>
>Care to comment further?
I only have one negative comment on this thread, and that is that lots
of us assume that the 3,000 mile change interval is Oil company
marketing, but no one has yet pointed out that high-manufacturer
specified drain intervals are *big* marketing tickets in Europe. That
is why lots of companies are going to 15,000 and even 20,000 mile
drain intervals. For the same reason so many cars made today are
marketed as not needing dealer tuneups until 100,000 miles.
I personally think 7500 miles is about right, since I doubt my filter
would last much longer, but since I don't have any evidence for or
against my theory, I will keep quiet about it.
Stuart
93 Passat GLX
- ratboy
aka stuar...@geocities.com
(don't be surprised if you email me and the response
comes back from here - earthling.net is just a
forwarding service)
mey...@my-dejanews.com
"Jeffrey J. Potoff" <jpo...@rhea.umd.edu> wrote:
> How the oil "looks" has nothing to do with its ability to
> lubricate. The only real way to know how often to change your
> oil is to have an engine oil analysis performed. Most people,
> however, seem to prefer mythology to science.
>
No. Most people figure its cheaper to change the oil more often than to pay
for periodic oil analyes. They're probably right.
mey...@my-dejanews.com
Never say never <g>. Fifty years ago, if you told car owners they'd someday
go 7500 miles between oil changes, 50,000 miles on a set of tires, and over
100K miles without a ring and valve job, they'd have laughed you off the
planet.
(FWIW, I come down slightly on the side of more frequent oil changes. Cheap
insurance).
mey...@my-dejanews.com
rmo...@sickofspam.interaccess.com (rmoburg) wrote:
> On 9 Dec 1998 01:50:57 GMT, Hogan Whittall <ho...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> And there is where your argument crumbles to the ground...
>
>
Guess? Guess?! This thread's been going on for what, a week now, and all
we're doing is guessing?
Geez, change you oil whenever you want. It's your engine and your money. If
you go broke buying oil and filters, I don't care. If your engine wears out
at 100K instead of 200K, I don't care.
Can we drop this now? Please?
Tim G
Stuart Hall wrote in message <366eac0c.13424540@news>...
i think this is a load of shit.... (not referring to the last author but to
this whole argument)
#1 you have to be only referring to new cars that operate efficiently .
#2 you must think that all cars are driven properly, and the engine internal
environment is ideal.
for ex. no short trips, proper warm up, and maintained ideal engine
temperatures.
how about some real facts, not personal accounts of intervals, or what "lots
of companies" say, i liked that quote, based on what "lots of companies" say
i'm sure you're going to convince what you're talking about is correct.
find specific testing, etc, i'm quite sure that the oil breaks down quite
adequately to require changing after 3000 miles. oil contamination, sludge
are only complements of oil. contamination of oil can be and may be always
acidic, or corrosive anyway to the bearings of the engine. not selectively
to the bearings of course but to the engine internals. sludge buildup can
inhibit the proper functioning of the engine. Oil viscosity also breaks
down over time, (due to driving, not to time) providing insufficient
protection during the highway trips and cold startups.
now you may say "ha, look he complains of lack of factual information but
here he is doing the same" sorry, 3000 mile is quite accepted by many
motorists, (especially ones that have figured out its quite more economical
to do it themselves) and therefore i don't have to prove my standings since
its already believed. I'm not trying to change anyones opinion of oil
change intervals, except the few, and to those few who choose to gamble with
proper change times, i suggest you look at a specific publication "Nutz and
Boltz" and visit there webpage....
do a search.. i can't think of the exact page address.. maybe
www.motorminute.com... ahh thats it..
this is however void if said above failed to mention they use synthetic, in
which case, its up in the air as to when it should be changed.
the 3000 mile/ 3 month is a whichever comes first. so the highway drivers,
although its not the toughest driving on the oil, don't push it.
even this website indicates an issue, that talks of newer cars and oil. i
don't have the publication sent to where i'm living so i may have missed
something. but maybe a fellow NG reader can fill us in.
-to us that drive older cars and like it
Jeffrey J. Potoff
>
> In article <366DA39A...@rhea.umd.edu>,
> "Jeffrey J. Potoff" <jpo...@rhea.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> > How the oil "looks" has nothing to do with its ability to
> > lubricate. The only real way to know how often to change your
> > oil is to have an engine oil analysis performed. Most people,
> > however, seem to prefer mythology to science.
> >
>
> No. Most people figure its cheaper to change the oil more often than to pay
> for periodic oil analyes. They're probably right.
Once again someone has missed the point. People are making statements
without one shred of evidence. This nonsense could be rectified
once and for all with a simple experiment. Have the oil analyzed
at specific milage intervals. Plot the "quality" of the oil versus
milage. Extrapolate to determine what the optimum oil change
interval should be for your driving conditions. It's simple, it's
cheap and it's based on fact, not old wive's tales.
As for the actual cost of the oil analysis, you show that you don't
know what you're talking about by the use of the word "probably".
This implies you don't really know what the cost of the oil analysis
is, but somehow feel qualified to speculate.
Jeff
y_...@hotmail.com
> >>and can be ignored. Guess what? Probably 80%-90% of the cars on the road
> >>fall into severe service.
> >
>
> mileage comes on the highway. BUT, my city driving is such that I fall
> into the severe category. I typically drive 300 highway miles a week, and
> 50 city miles a week. The thing of it is that my city driving constitutes
> short trips, which is especially harsh on engines.
I'm in the same boat. Most of my mileage comes from gentle freeway driving
(except when the Nimitz Freeway slows down), but most of may cold starts
involve short trips to work or just shopping. I end up idling for 1-2 min
spurts at expressway intersections, etc. I also have a tendency rev it up
to 8K RPM every now and then. I try to make it a happy medium by changing
at 4K miles or 4 months - the manufacturer says every 3750 miles for severe
service.
> But aside from my experience, I would bet that the 80-90% severe duty is
> closer to being right. Of course, I live in Atlanta, where traffic may be
> worse than other places, but people commute back and forth everyday,
> sitting in rush hour traffic. Here, that involves a LOT of stop and go
> driving. Also, look at folks that live in the suburbs. They usually live
> somewhat close to work. My Father lives about 1.5 miles from work, and my
> mother lives about 2 miles from work. That would constitute severe
> driving conditions. Most folks, from what I have seen, who live in the
> same suburbs they work in, drive very short distances to work. And those
> who commute often drive in horrible stop and go rush hour traffic.
Well the tricky part is that most drivers are like me - most miles come
from freeways driving and most starts come from short trip-rush hour driving.
Unfortunately, the manufacturers aren't going to give some sort of
complicated formula based on ambient conditions, length or trip, idle time,
etc. I'd guess that many folks change their oil somewhere in between
3K and 7.5K miles - as most drivers drive somewhere between "normal" and
"severe" conditions. The manufacturers are left recommending only two
change intervals, as it would only complicate matters to give a whole lot
of qualifications. Owner's manuals are also vague when they say driving
occasionally under "severe" conditions means following the "normal" schedule.
It's easy to simplify to 3K,4K,5K miles - especially since changing more often
doesn't hurt the vehicle.
The ideal solution may be what Porsche and BMW have in some of their cars.
They program their trip computers to take in several variables and recommends
when to change the oil. It monitors how the car is driven, and perhaps
ambient temperatures. Of course it's not perfect. They're not going to find
certain severe conditions such as dusty air, etc. OTOH - maybe this is a
right step. What I think might be better is for the computer to produce
a number between 0 (reset after a change) and 100 (change now) - with possible
additional variables that the owner could input. Of course if the car goes
through a dusty construction site every day........
Yu-Ping Wang
Santa Clara, California
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
BetRTimes
>From: "Steven M. Scharf"
>The guy in the next office from me is from Italy and he said
<snip>
> when
>he went back one time to visit he went to Costco first
>and bought two tires to bring back with him in his luggage.
>He said that the airline wouldn't let him bring cases of oil
>though.
Gee,,, I hope the airline let him bring jelly donuts..
y_...@hotmail.com
> >Europe...
>
> I saw this not long ago. VW has one, don't they? BUT, there is only one
> oil that is certified to do that. Many people have used Amsoil for
> extended drain intervals (35,000 miles, I believe) and have gotten more
> life out of their engines (mostly trucking companies). If you use the
> right oil, then it is very possible.
The right oil doesn't have to be a synthetic. Trucking companies often
do extended drains using conventional oils too. Of course there's usually
oil analysis involved - but it costs the same to analyze a sample from a
20 gallon truck crankcase as from a 5 quart auto crankcase. It would make
far more sense given the amount of oil and time involved with a tractor.
Many of the conventional (as well as synthetic) diesel oils also advertise
superior soot-control additives, etc that can boost drain periods. Regardless,
it's my understanding that many truck manufacturers were recommending ~20K
mile oil drains even BEFORE extending them further.
BTW - Mobil has their own oil analysis programs to go with their extended
drain diesel oils.
And don't forget that we're also talking HUGE amounts of motor oil. I don't
have the exact numbers, but don't these big 'ol trucks have a higher ratio
of motor oil to engine displacement than passenger cars?
> But, many people don't change their oil at the proper intervals, either.
> I drove a van the other day (doing some part time work) that had 21,000
> miles on the oil. Pople just don't take care of their cars.
Well - the occasional lapse might not be THAT crucial, but 21K miles?
Harry C. King III
>spurts at expressway intersections, etc. I also have a tendency rev it up
>to 8K RPM every now and then. I try to make it a happy medium by changing
I know this is off topic, but 8000RPM? What kind of car do you drive? I
would assume that most engines that can turn those kind of RPM would be
more along the high performance/high maintenance line, and would mandate
3000 mile changes.
Sorry I'm so nosy.
Jeffrey J. Potoff
What makes you so sure ? Was it the engine oil analysis you ran or
was it the little voices in your head ?
> oil contamination, sludge are only complements of oil.
What exactly is a "complement" of oil ?
> contamination of oil can be and may be always
> acidic, or corrosive anyway to the bearings of the engine. not selectively
> to the bearings of course but to the engine internals. sludge buildup can
> inhibit the proper functioning of the engine.
I've seen plenty of engines with loads of sludge buildup that ran
well beyond 120K miles with no oil consumption.
> Oil viscosity also breaks
> down over time, (due to driving, not to time) providing insufficient
> protection during the highway trips and cold startups.
At what rate ?
>
> now you may say "ha, look he complains of lack of factual information but
> here he is doing the same" sorry, 3000 mile is quite accepted by many
> motorists, (especially ones that have figured out its quite more economical
> to do it themselves) and therefore i don't have to prove my standings since
> its already believed.
You specifically say early that "what lots of companies say" isn't
good enough proof. Now "what lots of people say" *is* good enough
proof ? Why don't you just say you really don't know what you're
talking about, but were bored this afternoon and decided to
fall victim to male answer syndrome.
So you're saying that because lots of people belive a myth that
was built on little, if any scientific evidence, that makes it true ?
This is ridiculous ! You might as well be telling us all the
world is flat or the sun revolves around the earth. A lot of
people used to believe that, too.
Jeff
Xiao-Long Li
>In article <74m7g3$p...@acmey.gatech.edu>,
>And don't forget that we're also talking HUGE amounts of motor oil. I don't
>have the exact numbers, but don't these big 'ol trucks have a higher ratio
>of motor oil to engine displacement than passenger cars?
Don't those trucks have oil coolers as well? Or am I mistaking them for
something else?
>Well - the occasional lapse might not be THAT crucial, but 21K miles?
Actually, one of my friend "forgot" to change his oil for about 34k miles.
Eventually he finds his car's mpg goes way down and he only got about 2
quart of oil left in his Chevy Blazer. Once he got the oil changed. The
Blazer ran fine after that. The car has about 86k miles now and it still
runs fine. Speaking of those bullet-proofed Pushrods, that is a good
example. But he wished he did not "forget"... I am sure that it is not
good thing despite that the engine still runs fine.
--
Xiao-Long Li (Shaw) :)
Graduate EE, School of Electrical Engineering & Computer Engineering
E-mail: gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Mailbox: 336374, Georgia Tech Station
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332-1675
Wilf Lee
III) wrote:
>In article <74moab$ohc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>spurts at expressway intersections, etc. I also have a tendency rev it up
>>to 8K RPM every now and then. I try to make it a happy medium by changing
>
>I know this is off topic, but 8000RPM? What kind of car do you drive? I
>would assume that most engines that can turn those kind of RPM would be
>more along the high performance/high maintenance line, and would mandate
>3000 mile changes.
My '95 motorcycle engine revs up to 10,500 RPM red line. And I
believe newer motorcycles go even higher.
Recommended oil change is 5,000KM or 3,000 miles with synthetic oil.
I follow this religeously.
I regularly drive the bike on highways at normal speeds (75mph or 5000
RPM) to and from work during the summer. Lots of quick accelerations
and stops at certain spots. Typical engine rev stays below 7000 RPM
except for 3 to 4 times a week I rev it up to redline to accelerate.
The bike now has 50,000+ Km on it with no engine problems at all (went
through two front tires and 3 rear tires though).
What does this say for Saturn's relatively low rev engine? 3000 mile
changes should be just fine.
regards,
WL
My e-mail address is #chopstix@#idirect.#com.
Address is modified to prevent spamming.
Remove the 3 # signs from my address before sending.
Tim G
Jeffrey J. Potoff wrote in message <366EF331...@rhea.umd.edu>...
>Tim G wrote:
>> i think this is a load of shit.... (not referring to the last author but
to
>> this whole argument)
>> #1 you have to be only referring to new cars that operate efficiently .
>> #2 you must think that all cars are driven properly, and the engine
internal
>> environment is ideal.
>> for ex. no short trips, proper warm up, and maintained ideal engine
>> temperatures.
>>
>> how about some real facts, not personal accounts of intervals, or what
"lots
>> of companies" say, i liked that quote, based on what "lots of companies"
say
>> i'm sure you're going to convince what you're talking about is correct.
>> find specific testing, etc, i'm quite sure that the oil breaks down quite
>> adequately to require changing after 3000 miles.
>
>What makes you so sure ? Was it the engine oil analysis you ran or
>was it the little voices in your head ?
>
i look at it, feel it, smell it. if that doesn't make any sense to you then
don't worry, someday i might have it analyzed. i have never seen oil come
out of a car, looking/feeling/smelling the same as it was put in. my
assumption is that the oil is not better than before, or do you think that
needs some justification.
what little voices? who said that? not me! hey! ahahahhaa
>> oil contamination, sludge are only complements of oil V .
sorry a little typo, missing word "degradation"
>
>What exactly is a "complement" of oil ?
>
>> contamination of oil can be and may be always
>> acidic, or corrosive anyway to the bearings of the engine. not
selectively
>> to the bearings of course but to the engine internals. sludge buildup
can
>> inhibit the proper functioning of the engine.
>
>I've seen plenty of engines with loads of sludge buildup that ran
>well beyond 120K miles with no oil consumption.
>
yes and i believe it too based on my 190k + golf gti. i was only referring
to the fact that noisy hydro lifters can sometimes be caused by
sludge.......thats why there's the remarkable word "can" in there....always
exceptions to the rule. always.
>> Oil viscosity also breaks
>> down over time, (due to driving, not to time) providing insufficient
>> protection during the highway trips and cold startups.
>
>At what rate ?
its a fact... do you think that oil doesn't break down? Rates differ between
cars and type of driving done.
>
>>
>> now you may say "ha, look he complains of lack of factual information but
>> here he is doing the same" sorry, 3000 mile is quite accepted by many
>> motorists, (especially ones that have figured out its quite more
economical
>> to do it themselves) and therefore i don't have to prove my standings
since
>> its already believed.
>
>You specifically say early that "what lots of companies say" isn't
>good enough proof. Now "what lots of people say" *is* good enough
>proof ? Why don't you just say you really don't know what you're
>talking about, but were bored this afternoon and decided to
>fall victim to male answer syndrome.
ahhhhh, same as you, except i have read, and would research if i had the
resources closer than 300 miles. I could spout the scientific evaluations of
the top oil brands, using the ball bearing test, etc.
that part about "what lots of people say" isn't a quote from me. my point
was from a debating standpoint. since (unless i'm mistaken) a lot of us
believe in the 3000mile oil change interval. it would require factual
evidence and hard facts to make us think otherwise. Therefore it isn't
necessary (though it would be nice and i apologize) that i present a
complete report supporting me. The majority already think its right. I'm
not saying that its 100% true, I even referred to a reliable publication.
and i said i haven't been up to date on everything so if i was mistaken
someone correct me.
>
>So you're saying that because lots of people belive a myth that
>was built on little, if any scientific evidence, that makes it true ?
>This is ridiculous ! You might as well be telling us all the
>world is flat or the sun revolves around the earth. A lot of
>people used to believe that, too.
look at that jeff, you support my whole argument!......
-------- until there was factual evidence nobody thought
ifferent. ------------
(ahh, you see, that was my point from the beginning!! aha!) so unless
someone comes up with the facts, and not a bunch of heresay, most people
will remain loyal to the 3000 mile interval.
Ron Pieper
changes: I gather it is something like this (correct me if I'm wrong):
-Valve seals prone to fail, allowing excess oil into combustion chamber
-excess oil blows by, and gums up oil scraper rings, rendering them ineffective,
further increasing oil consumption, and making valve seal replacement alone
ineffective at curing the consumption damage
-if owner is not careful, oil gets low and timing chain suffers the brunt of the
damage.
Blue is this correct?
I have heard the warnings, and I will complain at nobody but me if my engine dies as
a result of my lack of attention. WIll I change my ways (on my Saturn)...(gulp)...
probably.
"Every man is my better in that I may learn from him"
Thanks Blue
Ron
Steven M. Scharf
rmoburg wrote in message <366e0e15...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:10:30 -0700, Greg <djf...@sprintmail.com>
>
>>15k oil changes ? never see it ! Greg.
>Might not see it here but, I believe it's already happening in
>Europe...
The guy in the next office from me is from Italy and he said
that oil is $8 per quart. At that price, people are less cavalier
about changing oil to make themselves feel good.
He keeps a car there for his vacations and
he also said tires are really expensive there, and when
he went back one time to visit he went to Costco first
and bought two tires to bring back with him in his luggage.
He said that the airline wouldn't let him bring cases of oil
though.
Steve
Steven M. Scharf
>You seem to think the 3000-mile service schedule is there for looks only
>and can be ignored. Guess what? Probably 80%-90% of the cars on the road
>fall into severe service.
Hmm, do you work for Jiffy Lube? The ratio is probably more like 20% severe
in urban areas where people use expressways and freeways for the majority
of their driving.
Steve
----------------------------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages.
First it is ridiculed,
second it is violently opposed,
third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Schopehnauer
----------------------------------------------
Steven M. Scharf
>how about some real facts, not personal accounts of intervals, or what
"lots
>of companies" say, i liked that quote, based on what "lots of companies"
say
The 'real facts' are based on measuring engine wear after different
oil change intervals, and the testimony of expert mechanics. Neither
support the 3K change interval for most cars.
>i'm sure you're going to convince what you're talking about is correct.
>find specific testing, etc, i'm quite sure that the oil breaks down quite
>adequately to require changing after 3000 miles.
What makes you sure of this? There is no evidence to support this.
And why 3K miles. Hasn't it broken down adequately at 1500, 2000, or
2500 miles? If 3K changes are 'cheap insurance,' aren't 1500 mile
changes more insurance at a miniscule cost? This argument breaks
down like the '55 saves lives' argument. Wow, let's all drive 25MPH
and save even more lives, or 5MPH and have almost no traffic
deaths. Let's change our oil every 1K miles and have our engine
last forever.
>oil contamination, sludge
>are only complements of oil. contamination of oil can be and may be always
>acidic, or corrosive anyway to the bearings of the engine. not selectively
>to the bearings of course but to the engine internals. sludge buildup can
>inhibit the proper functioning of the engine.
All this is true, and part of the reason why you shouldn't extend
change intervals excessively as advocated by some proponents of
synthetic oil, even when the viscosity is fine. However you need
to look at the scientific testing which shows that at 3K the oil
is not contaminated.
>Oil viscosity also breaks
>down over time, (due to driving, not to time) providing insufficient
>protection during the highway trips and cold startups.
True, but look at the studies of oil viscosity. At 3K it has not
broken down except in certain high performance engines. I remember a
while back someone was trying to promote synthetic oil and quoted
a study of motorcycle engines where the synthetic retained far more
viscosity, and tried to extrapolate this onto normal automobile
engines (even though the same study showed that the petroleum based
oil didn't lose much viscosity in an automobile engine). The fact
is that non-high performance engines don't lose oil much viscosity
after 3K. Even the few engines that do need 3K oil changes, such
as Saturn engines, don't need it because of viscosity breakdown,
it's other reasons that it's necessary.
>now you may say "ha, look he complains of lack of factual information but
>here he is doing the same" sorry, 3000 mile is quite accepted by many
>motorists, (especially ones that have figured out its quite more economical
>to do it themselves) and therefore i don't have to prove my standings
since
>its already believed.
It _is_ accepted by many motorists. Unfortunately this does not make
it true, necessary, or beneficial. Many believe it because in the past
it was true on older cars. Many believe it because the ads for the oil
change places say it. Many motorists still believe in using high
octane gasoline in engines that don't benefit from it. Many motorists
believe in revving the engine prior to shutting it off to give the
battery an extra charge even though this damages the engine. Many PC
users believe in turning off their systems from a power strip even
though this is bad for the PC. Just because people accept something,
does not make it true.
Jay Millikan
I was stationed in Aviano Italy for 3 years. Tires are comparable to
American prices, and oil is cheaper. Quit lying. Your bullshit is
wearing me slick, loserboy.
Jay Millikan
Jay Millikan
and give you the "pleasure" you so desprately need!
jame...@my-dejanews.com
I ask because I haven't changed oil for about 7 months, but still
have not clocked up 3,000 miles. I know you'd say why not just
change it for the peace of mind. The problem is that it's a little
complicated: I have a car already with 100K on it; from what I've
heard, it may not be advisable to switch to pure synthetic. So
what I do is having the shop change the oil with regular dyno
juice; then after the car comes back, I siphon a quart out through the
dip stick tube, and put one quart of Mobil 1 in there. So you see
it's a rather complicated process, which I'd prefer not to engage
in too often if I can get away with it.