"Pushy" is when the salesperson...
Bergman
question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
buying experience.
Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
Please complete the sentence for me based on your experiences.
If you have time, you can tell me at which manufacturers you
experienced the pushiness. The answers (but not the dealership
or manufacturer names) will be communicated to hundreds of
salespeople this winter.
Thank you again,
E. Bergman
Ann Johnson
"What can I do to get you in this car today?!"
Duh...Give it to me FREE and leave me alone!
ap8...@cnsvax.albany.edu
...they jump on you once you hit the lot and don't go away when you
tell them you're just looking.
...they try and get you to buy a more expensive model than what you've
already said you wanted.
...they don't shut up when you're looking at cars or test-driving one.
Basically, a salesman is being courteous when they let you take your
time, look around, and answer questions when asked. A little small talk is no
big deal, but when you ask them to quiet down they should. After all, the
customer is the one spending a ton of money, a little common courtesy isn't
too much to ask for, is it?
I've experienced or heard these complaints about many car manufacturers
except Saturn (I haven't been to one, but I haven't heard anything bad yet).
======================
Anthony Podloski
University at Albany (SUNY) 1990 Pontiac Sunbird
ap8...@cnsvax.albany.edu "Cruzin90"
"Great spirits have always faced violent opposition from mediocre minds"
-Albert Einstein
======================
Doug
>Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
>question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
>auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
>buying experience.
>Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
>A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
...there is a $1500 rebate on the car and he/she tells you they can't
keep 'em on the lot.
...he/she won't quote a price unless you will give a deposit or make a
written offer.
eh...@fnalv.fnal.gov
My favorite, or worst, depending on how you look at it-
"Just how much are you willing to spend"? I hate that!!!
ed.
KFP10466
-refuses to answer direct questions about the availability of items on
certain models. ( A Chevy dealer hemmed and hawed when I asked about a
sunroof on the Monte Carlo. My Saturn dealer told mye point blank that a
sunroof was not available on the SW2 but he would check into after market
sunroofs if I'd really like one. I went with the SL2 w/ sunroof instead.)
-outright lies about features on cars. ( One saleswoman at a Toyota
dealer told me that an early model Paseo had an airbag. If it did, it
must pop out of the little logo in the middle of the stearring wheel and
be the size of a sandwich bag. )
-wants your S.S # so they can run a check on you before giving you any
help.
-keep you waiting when you want to test drive and bark out direction to
you when you are driving.
kfp1...@aol.com
"i coast, therefore i am"
While riding the Internet, please keep hands,arms and legs inside the car
at all times.
Iron Dragon- The "Diet Rite" of Rollercoasters ( lots fizzle but no fizz )
TIM_C...@um.cc.umich.edu
him I paid cash for the car and owed nothing, he then ask 5 time in a row how
much I paid for the car. Each time I refused to answer, so he then turned to
my wife and asked her. Needless to say I didn't buy from this person and will
never go back.
iji...@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us
> Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
> question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
> auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
> buying experience.
>
> Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
>
> A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
>
- the Honda salesman tries to show you that the '95 Civic did meet '97
side impact standards using the manual (with large numbers on the cover)
for the '96 model.
- the Subaru salesmanager tries to get you to pay more than the advertised
sales price of the car by "working out" the monthly payments "to suit your
budget".
- the same Subaru person can't take no for an answer, eg:
SP - it only comes out to $10 more a month
Me - No
SP - that only works out to $2.50 more a week
Me - No
SP - that only comes out to $0.35 more a day
Me - No
(I was dreading that he would have the numbers for minutes and seconds)
Hans Nygaard
>
> A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
>
...they won't leave you too look around the lot but drag you from one car
to the next.
...they don't assess the technical expertise of the buyer and treat you
like a moron.
I'm Danish but was in Texas a few months ago shopping for a classic
Mustang or Camaro and was shocked at the behavior of US-salespeople. At
first I was polite and went along but soon dicovered that the only thing
that works is "Go away!" - "Just looking" ins't enough.
My 2 cents..
Hans Nygaard
smith gregory m
A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
.....they repeatedly ask you the following question: "What can I do to
put you in this new car TODAY?"
jjt
>Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
>question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
>auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
>buying experience.
>
>Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
>
>
>
>
>If you have time, you can tell me at which manufacturers you
>experienced the pushiness. The answers (but not the dealership
>or manufacturer names) will be communicated to hundreds of
>salespeople this winter.
>
>Thank you again,
>
>E. Bergman
>
.. their lips start moving.
Toyota and Honda dealers are, IMHO, pretty obnoxious.
Jim Tuccillo
j...@randomc.com
Rick Colombo
>
>
> ...they jump on you once you hit the lot and don't go away when you
> tell them you're just looking.
>
> ...they try and get you to buy a more expensive model than what you've
> already said you wanted.
>
> ...they don't shut up when you're looking at cars or test-driving one.
>
... when you tell them what you're looking for and they sit you down
in their office and start writting up an order.
(this actually happened to my step-daughter)
Rick Col...@fnal.gov
John
>- the same Subaru person can't take no for an answer, eg:
>SP - it only comes out to $10 more a month
>Me - No
>SP - that only works out to $2.50 more a week
>Me - No
>SP - that only comes out to $0.35 more a day
>Me - No
>(I was dreading that he would have the numbers for minutes and seconds)
Old sales technique, mimimize the cost.
The comeback????? Look the salesman straight in the eye and say. . .
"Good, then YOU pay it!"
Having been in sales for many years (and abhorring the techniques that
salespeople have been taught to utilize) I have a very poor image of the
average automobile hacker. He has little or no product knowledge, runs
on a system (which is the only way he/she knows how to sell) and are
only looking for a fast buck.
The best defense is a good offense and others have said it here before.
Be prepared, know what you want, what the dealer cost is, what rebates
are available etc. And don't budge. If he asks a question, and then
stops talking, look he/she right in the eye and smile. Don't say ANYTHING
at all. A really good technician will not get nervous for a couple of
minutes. A pro will hold out for 5. The first one to speak loses. Using
this technique right back at them will shake the average salesperson
more than almost anything else a "suspect" (you) can do!!!!!!
John
Cat
>> ...when they block YOUR car in so you can't leave, and you have to
>> threaten to call the cops....
> It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
>above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
>I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
>publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
very bad about such things.
It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride in
their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to fight
to get their used car's keys back!
It is for this reason that
A) I plan on selling my Saturn on my own if I ever buy a new car
(as it stands I won't buy another Saturn until they make their newer
models more aesthetically pleasing)
B) I refuse to purchase anything from ANY Rosenthal dealership and
C) I am going to take a rather large, ominous wonderful friend of mine
with me when I go purchase any new car. Said wonderful friend will do
me just about any favor short of killing or maiming someone for the
price of a nice bottle of merlot or vodka. This includes helping me
haggle. He just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee for HIS price, and even
left the dealership over an $86 difference from what he offered and
what they wanted to give it to him for. They called him after the
weekend and offered it to him at his original asking price. :)
Cat
(91 Grey SL)
Cat ----------------------------------------- |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) ---------
c...@rumpleteazer.feline.org /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
c...@va.pubnix.com |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
http://www.feline.org/feline/ --------------'---''(_/--' (_/-' -----F.Lee----
Glenn Painter
>
>A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
> .....they repeatedly ask you the following question: "What can I do to
>put you in this new car TODAY?"
___
...when they block YOUR car in so you can't leave, and you have to
threaten to call the cops....
gep
Glenn Painter <gpai...@redstone.army.mil>
US ARMY MISSILE COMMAND (SESI)
Redstone Arsenal
Huntsville, AL
COMMANIA
Says "wait a minute," pulls up in different car than you asked about, and
takes you on a 45 minute test drive without even asking you. Meanwhile,
his mouth ran constantly about Mazda's safety features (Sorry, had to say
who), while he ran three red lighs and floored the car to redline at every
chance of acceleration.
Dave Hillman
> ...when they block YOUR car in so you can't leave, and you have to
> threaten to call the cops....
It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
So, to start, West Suburban Auto Group in Maywood, IL, has the
frustrating habit of making up imaginary used vehicles to sell you. If
you ask them ( on the phone ), for a specific make and model. They'll
take the best characteristics of *all* those models on the lot and pretend
it's one vehicle. ( eg, a '91 164S with 30K, leather, and a 5 speed, for
$9995... when they actually have *a* 91, *an* S, another with a 5 speed,
*a* '93 with 30K, and another '91 for $9995. )
They did this at least twice to me, and I'll never buy a car there
even if their prices were reasonable. They sell new SAAB/VW/and a few
others.
--
David Hillman
1991 alfa romeo 164l | aroc, nma
Ron Miller
: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Glenn Painter wrote:
: > ...when they block YOUR car in so you can't leave, and you have to
: > threaten to call the cops....
: It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
: above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
: I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
: publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
I don't think that the net is so good for this since our cumulative effect on
a given dealer is likely to be small.
But with that said, one of the really huge dealers in Denver (it changes
hands every few years) reportedly has a rule that the salesman is FIRED
if he does not get your car keys from you.
Some days I consider going car shopping just to be mean :-)))
(But I don't feel like going to Denver to do it.)
Ron Miller
Ft. Collins, Colo.
Christopher Wong
to do their auto styling? They should be fired and replaced with a
bunch of high school kids, who would do a better, more spirited job.
Pushy salespeople can be dealt with via various ways --e.g. respond with
anger, carry extra car keys, ignore them. However, indifferent or
ignorant salespeople are inexcusable. What do these idiots do with
their time when not harrassing potential customers? It would seem like
learning more about their own products might earn them some respect, not
to mention make them more effective salespeople.
chris
Neal Richa Hefferren
>*Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
>*A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
the salesman insisted on going along for a test-drive w/ me when I
repeatedly told him he wasn't welcome AND (this is the kicker b/c I
realize dealership policy may not have allowed him to let me go alone)
AND I was taking the drive w/ my longtime girlfriend, the daughter of the
dealership's OWNER!!!! *sigh*
Dave
*Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
*question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
*auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
*buying experience.
*Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
*A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
Say, can I have a copy of the final results forwarded to me?
val...@mordor.com
Jon N. Steiger
: I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
: of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
: very bad about such things.
: It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
: to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride in
: their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to fight
: to get their used car's keys back!
:-( How come this stuff never happens to me?
Not that its a fun thing to have happen to you, but it would be
interesting to "match wits" (if thats not being too generous) with
some of these clowns.
For example, carry an extra set of car keys with you... "Since you
don't want to give me back my keys, its a good thing I've got a spare
set here. I'm not going to drive off though. I'm going to start counting.
Every 10 seconds, I'm going to use *this* set on one of the cars on your
lot. I'll do this until I run out of cars. *Then*, I'll get my Bowie knife
from my car and start in on the interiors and maybe the glass. One, two,
three, four..." ;^)
I wonder how many cars it would take before you get your keys back? (if
any?) Of course, it gets really good if they try to physically stop you. Now
you get to excersise your right to defend yourself.
Unfortunately, the above is probably also a good way to get in trouble
with the law real fast too... Stupid lawyers... ;-) I guess it would
all depend on the salesman, the dealer, and the circumstances involved.
Kind of a "use at your own risk" sorta thing...
-Jon-
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Jon Steiger == DoD# 1038 == USUA# A46209 == NMA# 117376 == KotWitDoDFAQ |
| stei...@cs.fredonia.edu && http://www.cs.fredonia.edu/~stei0302/ |
| '96 Dakota SLT V-8, '91 FZR600R /* Just another mangy hacker */ |
`-------------------------------------------------------------------------'
Virtuanna
>
> It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
>above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
>I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
>publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
Point well taken. Avoid Templeton Dodge, in Northern Virginia,
for all the annoying traits you have mentioned. As well as
taking me for a DAMFOOL which I am not...and making up
fairy stories as to the prior history of the car, trade-in
reason...
>
> So, to start, West Suburban Auto Group in Maywood, IL, has the
>frustrating habit of making up imaginary used vehicles to sell you. If
>you ask them ( on the phone ), for a specific make and model.
I've heard horror stories, including that one, about Gary
Barbera Dodge north of Philadelphia.
The bad apples really spoil it for the good dealers, and as I
have been searching for that specific, special car for over
three months, and have driven over a thousand miles in my
travels trying to track down a good one, I have heard it all
and quite frankly, I am tired of it. The *only* bad thing
about a Saturn dealer, is that they don't sell Dodges. ;)
Virtuanna ;)
Tony Tsakiris
... you ask for a test drive and the first response is "Are you
going to buy one today?"
---
Anthony Tsakiris
The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.
Paul Stafford
>
> Cat (c...@va.pubnix.com) wrote:
> : I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
> : of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
> : very bad about such things.
>
> : It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
> : to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride in
> : their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to fight
> : to get their used car's keys back!
seems the best way to beat this is to carry a cellphone, and
report a stolen car right there.
David Mann
:... their lips start moving.
:
:Toyota and Honda dealers are, IMHO, pretty obnoxious.
Because they sell Hondas and Toyotas. Nose in the air and the we'll charge
what we want attitude. I told one that if he was that way in the showroom I
could just imagine how snotty his service dept would be when the car needed
warranty work. "Mr, Mann, Hondas do not blow head gaskets", etc.
Pushy is asking for a deposit before you are permitted a test drive.
Pushy is "that car may not be here tomorrow" (my reply is "Hey, schmuck, so
what? Ever heard of a factory order?")
*****************************************************************************
Kodiak Services Company - Energy Reduction Audits - Lighting Designs for
Commercial, Industrial, Government Properties. We do our work ANYWHERE.
EPA Green Lights Surveyor Ally. Call David "Bear" Mann (503) 240-1831
FAX (503) 289-7384 Internet: jac...@teleport.com -or- FurFa...@aol.com
*****************************************************************************
David Mann
col...@fndcd.fnal.gov (Rick Colombo) wrote:
:In article <4b739s$n...@rebecca.albany.edu>, ap8...@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU writes:
: ... when you tell them what you're looking for and they sit you down
: in their office and start writting up an order.
: (this actually happened to my step-daughter)
==Devil's Advocate mode <on> (hmmm....)
You mean she was lucky enough to find a salesman willing and intelligent
enough to place a factory order for what she wanted rather than selling her
inventory she didn't want?
(mmmmmmm click!)
That's not pushy, that's being a salesman.
David Mann
Christopher Wong <Wo...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
:I agree with Cat that the new Saturns are REALLY ugly. Who does GM hire
:bunch of high school kids, who would do a better, more spirited job.
I hear rumor: they did get fired! Ford picked them up to design the new
cross-eyed frog Taurus.
:Pushy salespeople can be dealt with via various ways --e.g. respond with
:anger, carry extra car keys, ignore them.
1. Park on the street. Tell them if they take a test drive and do not park
it on the street again, ALL possible deals are automatically off.
2. Put your registration IN YOUR POCKET.
3. TELL them you have spare keys, or find keys to their demos and if yoour
keys do not come back, drop THEIRS into a storm drain. THEN pull our your
spares and drive away.
4. Or, sell the old one private party and buy through a broker.
:ignorant salespeople are inexcusable. What do these idiots do with
:their time when not harrassing potential customers?
Drink. (seriously, who knows?)
David Mann
:
: For example, carry an extra set of car keys with you... "Since you
:don't want to give me back my keys, its a good thing I've got a spare
:set here. I'm not going to drive off though. I'm going to start counting.
:Every 10 seconds, I'm going to use *this* set on one of the cars on your
:lot. I'll do this until I run out of cars. *Then*, I'll get my Bowie knife
:from my car and start in on the interiors and maybe the glass. One, two,
:three, four..." ;^)
Bad strategy! They could get you arrested, after they SAY they offered your
keys back. Who is a cop going to believe? The car dealer that pays more tax
than you and who has an owner on the city council or the C of C, or you, Joe
Wageslave? Trust me, this has been tried.
: Unfortunately, the above is probably also a good way to get in trouble
:with the law real fast too... Stupid lawyers... ;-) I guess it would
:all depend on the salesman, the dealer, and the circumstances involved.
True 'nuff! The very best weapon is word of mouth, but then consider this: I
have NEVER met a happy customer of a Ron Tonkin car dealers, but they grow
like cancer year after year. Does the Portland area population ENJOY getting
robbed?
Frank Brock
>> : of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
>> : very bad about such things.
>>
>> : It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
>> : to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride in
>> : their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to fight
>> : to get their used car's keys back!
>
This sort of stall tactic is pretty common. I had the same thing happen to me
at Fizgerald's Auto Mall in Rockville, and another dealer in Fairfax. I guess
the theory is: the longer you stay, the more likely you are to buy.
The last time I went looking at cars, I told the salesman I had to pick up
my kid from daycare in 1 1/2 hours (a little white lie). They only stalled
for 5 or 6 minutes when I asked for my keys.
> seems the best way to beat this is to carry a cellphone, and
>report a stolen car right there.
...or carry an extra set of keys. When they ask to inspect your car, give them
JUST the car keys, not your whole key ring. Then, if they stall too long, you
can pull out your spare and say bye-bye -- as long as they haven't hidden the
car on some back lot.
Gary Black
>In article <4b5c5c$3...@news.nstn.ca>, Bergman <eber...@lawmilcon.ca> wrote:
>> Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
>> question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
>> auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
>> buying experience.
>>
>> Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
>>
>> A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
At 4 different dealerships the sales men tried the exact same pitch,
"well your going from a regular car to a 4 wheel drive, you cant
expect us to give you the market price for your car." FYI they
thought it was a good deal to give me $3,000 less then what my car was
worth a 91 VW GTI, and not take any $$ of the new car. So the final
outcome was that what should have been an even swap as far as prices
go, ended up being a difference of $3500 bucks!! Needless to say I
still have the GTI.
-----------------
Gary Black
Ga...@idirect.com
David W. Webb
>
> I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
> of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
> very bad about such things.
I would have one of two responses to this type of behavior, especially if
they didn't want to give my keys back:
1. Pull out my spare wallet key that Saturn provides and drive straight
to a police station to report theft and harrassment. Follow up with a
letter to the manufacturer.
2. When they required my keys, say "No thanks. I'll shop somewhere else
then."
After thinking about it, and with the number of dealerships in the Dallas
area, I'd probably go with option 2 any time. At the same time, I've
never had this happen to me so far when test-driving cars. They usually
just want a photocopy of my license and insurance or something like that.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
David W. Webb
dw...@ti.com
Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas
Instruments is purely coincidental. (I don't speak for
TI)
---------------------------------------------------------
Adam Szymczak
<TIM_C...@UM.CC.UMICH.EDU> wrote:
>How about durning a trade-in the sales man ask how much you owe. When I told
>him I paid cash for the car and owed nothing, he then ask 5 time in a row how
>much I paid for the car. Each time I refused to answer, so he then turned to
>my wife and asked her. Needless to say I didn't buy from this person and will
>never go back.
>
Should of turned this around and used it on the salesman. Ask him how
much the delear paid for the new car you are interested in. If he refuses
to tell you, then tell him he has the answer to his question about how
much you paid for your trade-in.
--
Yours truly,
Adam Szymczak, BA Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)
szy...@server.uwindsor.ca University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada
neil glick
> ...they jump on you once you hit the lot and don't go away when you
> tell them you're just looking.
> ...they try and get you to buy a more expensive model than what you've
> already said you wanted.
> ...they don't shut up when you're looking at cars or test-driving one.
> Basically, a salesman is being courteous when they let you take your
> time, look around, and answer questions when asked. A little small talk is no
> big deal, but when you ask them to quiet down they should. After all, the
> customer is the one spending a ton of money, a little common courtesy isn't
> too much to ask for, is it?
> I've experienced or heard these complaints about many car manufacturers
> except Saturn (I haven't been to one, but I haven't heard anything bad yet).
Speaking of Saturn... When I was in the market for a new car or truck I
wanted to test drive an SL2. The salesman was very calm, but pissed me
off in leaps. I kept asking him if I could test drive a car, he kept
saying, "Yes, we're trying to find one." Then he proceeded to draw up an
entire sale asking me exactly what I wanted and how I was going to pay for
this car. I couldn't believe this, the guy wanted to sell me the car
before I had even been inside on or test drove the thing. Finally I said,
"Look I don't even know if I LIKE the car!" So finally he got off his
butt, picked out any SL2 and we went for a drive. I was a bit disapointed
with the pickup and his only comment was, "I don't know, it seems plenty
fast for me!" At this point I wanted out of there. I did like the
Saturn, but it was just not what I wanted and I felt I could get better
for the same non-negotiable price. And when I asked him if the Saturns
were going to be changed, he had NO clue so we asked the sales manager,
"Nope, not to my knowledge." Yeah right. So I guess I just picked a bad
dealership because I've heard great things about other saturn dealer.
There whole attitude was, "Don't bother me." So I bought a Ram. :P~
Neil
Chris Mauritz
: In article <4bbu4e$l...@canyon.sr.hp.com>, staf...@sr.hp.com says...
: >> : I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
: >> : of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
: >> : very bad about such things.
: >> : It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
: >> : to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride in
: >> : their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to fight
: >> : to get their used car's keys back!
: >
: This sort of stall tactic is pretty common. I had the same thing happen to me
: at Fizgerald's Auto Mall in Rockville, and another dealer in Fairfax. I guess
: the theory is: the longer you stay, the more likely you are to buy.
: The last time I went looking at cars, I told the salesman I had to pick up
: my kid from daycare in 1 1/2 hours (a little white lie). They only stalled
: for 5 or 6 minutes when I asked for my keys.
: > seems the best way to beat this is to carry a cellphone, and
: >report a stolen car right there.
: ...or carry an extra set of keys. When they ask to inspect your car, give them
: JUST the car keys, not your whole key ring. Then, if they stall too long, you
: can pull out your spare and say bye-bye -- as long as they haven't hidden the
: car on some back lot.
It's amazing that you have to make ANY excuse to get YOUR keys for
YOUR vehicle. I'd dial 911 if I didn't have them the instant I asked
for them.
Chris
--
Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
Chris
rec.autos.4x4:
>A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
...you're "just looking", and he wants your phone number so he can help
you look and get back to you.
...he's the fourth salesdroid to come by and offer to help you out, when
you've made it abundantly clear to the last three salesdroids that you're
"just looking".
(As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY acceptable reply to "just looking" is
"I'll be over *there* if you have any questions.")
...he can't or won't stop his sales speech when I've already decided to
purchase. IE: "I'll take *this* one." "But wait, I haven't finished!"
Get a life!
...he won't take "no" for an answer when it comes to the extended
warrantee. When I bought my most recent TV, I said "no" about 5 times to
the salesman before he caught on. Then the sales manager came over and
*he* tried to sell me the extended warrantee. I said "no" again. Even at
the cash register, the cashiers are trained to catch the missing extended
warrantee, and she offered to call over another salesman to explain it to
me. At that point, I was ready to put away my wallet and leave. If any
product so bad that it *needs* an extended warrantee, I don't want that
product. (I did buy the TV-- the price was unbeatable. I also warned all
my friends not to go there.)
On a slightly different note, I hate it when any salesdroid (not just
cars) makes a snap judgement about whether or not I'm a qualified
customer. My career pays *very* well, but prefer to dress in jeans and a
T-shirt instead of expensive suits. Sometimes I don't shave for days.
I'll admit it-- sometimes I look like shit. That's no excuse for a
salesdroid to give me the cold shoulder when I have a real question about
a product just because I don't look like a typical customer. "What's the
final price with taxes?" certainly isn't a rhetorical question.
--
Chris Rasley, Moncton, NB, Canada <cpra...@nbnet.nb.ca>
ATC (Moncton ACC), Private Pilot, Computer Geek, Coffee Addict
Wheels: '95 Ducati 900SSCR, '91 Jeep Renegade
Scott Nichols
a plug in for the last Salesmen I delt with at the Jeep
delership in Cambell Calif.
I went into the delership with my wife, who was in a hurry to get
home for an appointment. I found a used 91 Wrangler that was in
great shape. I decided that I wanted it and told the salesman
that we were in a hurry and what my price was. I offered him
10k for it. He went in and got the paperwork. We filled it out
and bought the Jeep with no trouble at all. We were in and out
in 45min. I couldn't beleive it. My closest record to that was
about 3 hours. By the way all of the comperable Jeeps that I
found were in the 12.5 to 13k range. 4.0, 50k miles, bone stock.
I was a little afraid that there was something wrong with the
Jeep. I have had it for 7 months and 12k miles and the only
thing wrong was the thermostat and that wasn't even that bad.
So here here to the guys at Jeep in Campbell.
Scott N.
91 Wrangler
4.0L
Currie 231 Kit
Ford 9" rearend w/ Detroit and 4.56's
David E. Brown
>I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
>of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have been
>very bad about such things.
Funny how their reputation gets around. I've heard the same things from
several sources. Their tactics must work because they have these big
nice dealerships.
-Dave
iji...@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us
>
> > Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
> > question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
> > auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
> > buying experience.
> >
> >
> > A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
> >
- the Toyota salesperson who touted the $12K price on a '95 Corolla wagon
and we hemmed and hawed and he kept telling us, "$12K, its a good price,
etc." When we get into the showroom, he goes around asking out loud,
"Where's the ad with the wagon for $12K?" It was actually $12,999, which
if you ask me is $13K. But the kicker is that the manager, who brought
the ad, comes back after we fill out the paperwork and says, "I'm sorry,
the price in that ad is wrong, its actually $13,999." We walked out and
haven't been back since.
RHardiman
Mauritz) writes:
>It's amazing that you have to make ANY excuse to get YOUR keys for
>YOUR vehicle. I'd dial 911 if I didn't have them the instant I asked
>for them.
I'd pitch such a fit that it would run customers off for months and then
go directly into the general managers office. Maybe some idiot will try
this on me sometime!
Geoffrey Reynolds
Paul Stafford <staf...@sr.hp.com> wrote::>> : I have read on all of the DC groups that deal with such things that all
:>> : of the Rosenthal dealerships in Northern, Virginia near Tyson's have
been
:>> : very bad about such things.
:>> : It seems that everyone who had been to a Rosenthal dealership was forced
:>> : to turn over their keys to have their used car inspected, given a ride
in
:>> : their prospective new car during this process, and then most had to
fight
:>> : to get their used car's keys back!
:>
Or deal with a salesperson who is half your size :). This happened to me at a
Mazda dealership. I am 6'1", about 230lbs and the salesperson was about 5'6"
and about 130lbs. After I politely asked for my keys back (to no avail of
course) I stood up, walked over to him a VERY sternly demanded my keys back.
I had them back within seconds. YMMV though :)...
Jeff
Hans L'Orange
A true story that took place in a Toyota dealership in Boulder, Colorado (there
is only one). I was looking at a used Camery that had about 13,000 miles. It
had been 'donated' to the university basketball coach and was now being sold
after a year worth of use. It was on the used lot and we had a verbal price
that we were, after some consideration, happy with. We returned to the lot,
the junior salesman is "not available, one of our senior people will be happy
to assist you". He denied the first price and came back with another that
was the same as a new car price. He then tried to argue that the car had
not depreciated and pulled out "documentation by JC Powers". I pointed out
that what he was showing me was a Toyota ad. He then tried to shift the
discussion to our trade in. We should have left at that point but I'm glad
(in a perverse way that I didn't) becuase it gets better.
He claimed they had driven the car over to the Ford dealership and had
determined it was worth $900. I asked when they had done this since his
office had a window that looked out on the lot, our car was in the lot
right next to the window, we had been in his office the whole time and THE
CAR HAD NEVER MOVED! He was adament that the car had been delivered to Ford,
at the dealership across town and their mechanics had looked at it at 9:30pm
and we must not have noticed. At this point (3 hours worth), we left.
The kicker was we ended up stopped at a railroad crossing on the way home.
I looked over and the same salesman was in the car next to us. I waved,
to show there were no hard feelings. He glared at us, refused to
wave back, and stared straight ahead until the train passed and he tore out
of there.
Gotta love it.
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Hans L'Orange - Hans.L...@Colorado.Edu - (303)492-8631 / 492-0996 fax *
* Asst. Director - Planning and Inst. Research - Univ. of Colorado Boulder *
* * "Strangers stopping strangers, just to shake their hand" * *
Mike Ehlers
I've been out shopping for a car for about the past 4 months. Recently
when I was back in Wisconsin I test drove the Saturn SC1 -- and I loved
it. It was the best car I test drove in my price range. I was pretty
well set to purchase it and they said they would give me $2200 for my
1990 Ford Escort (college car...).
Anyway, I ended up not ordering the car because I wanted to finance it
through my credit union so I waited until I got back to Chicago and went
to another Saturn dealer, picked out the exact same car, same options, etc...
The difference is that they only offered me $1100 for my car!
Can anyone explain to me how they determine the trade in value for a car.
$1100 seems like a pretty big difference to me. I have yet to purchase the
car because I feel like I'm getting taking advantage of by the dealership
here in Chicago (and I haven't made it back to Milwaukee yet).
Thanks much!
Mike
David Mann
cpra...@nbnet.nb.ca (Chris) wrote:
:On 19 Dec 1995 03:39:23 GMT, Bergman <eber...@lawmilcon.ca> wrote in
:rec.autos.4x4:
:
:>A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
:
:
:....he's the fourth salesdroid to come by and offer to help you out, when
:you've made it abundantly clear to the last three salesdroids that you're
:"just looking".
:
:(As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY acceptable reply to "just looking" is
:"I'll be over *there* if you have any questions.")
A friend of mine TRIED to buy a new Ranger 4WD years ago. He always had
Fords, dad had Fords, Gramps had Fords, you know the drill. And, he LIKED
Fords. FIVE dealers stroked him. One tried an interesting tactic of "You're
a young man, just starting your family, etc, you really can't afford this
truck//" in an effort to get him to beg for it (and be screwed).
He walked out of all five dealers.
On his way home they saw a Toyota store. His wife said let's stop. His
answser was "I don't want a Jap truck!". They looked anyway. "May I help
you?" "Jyust looking". "My name is Dan, if you decide you want some
assistance, I'll be over there."
Long story shortened: he was treated like a gent, got a good deal(no trade),
and bought the first non-Ford in ths history of his family. His father had a
fit until Dale said, when asked why he didn't buy another Ford, "No one wanted
top sell me one."
My brother had plenty of experience with Ford service depts around the US when
he had a 1 tone dually diesel pickup. It was his last Ford. Why? The TRUCK
was fine, it was the service depts that treated him so shabbily, even on paid
work.
Bob Gilbert
>
> Speaking of Saturn... When I was in the market for a new car or truck I
> wanted to test drive an SL2. The salesman was very calm, but pissed me
> off in leaps. I kept asking him if I could test drive a car, he kept
> saying, "Yes, we're trying to find one." Then he proceeded to draw up an
> entire sale asking me exactly what I wanted and how I was going to pay for
> this car. I couldn't believe this, the guy wanted to sell me the car
> before I had even been inside on or test drove the thing. Finally I said,
> "Look I don't even know if I LIKE the car!" So finally he got off his
> butt, picked out any SL2 and we went for a drive. I was a bit disapointed
> with the pickup and his only comment was, "I don't know, it seems plenty
> fast for me!" At this point I wanted out of there. I did like the
> Saturn, but it was just not what I wanted and I felt I could get better
> for the same non-negotiable price. And when I asked him if the Saturns
> were going to be changed, he had NO clue so we asked the sales manager,
> "Nope, not to my knowledge." Yeah right. So I guess I just picked a bad
> dealership because I've heard great things about other saturn dealer.
> There whole attitude was, "Don't bother me." So I bought a Ram. :P~
Funny, I had just the opposite experience when I bought my MR2 ten years
ago. I walked in and got the usual "what will it take to for me to put
you in this car today" greeting and I replied "drop your sticker price
$500 and you've got a sale". I knew I wanted an MR2 and had searched around
central Florida and only found a couple available, this being one of them.
It was being sold for basically msrp plus the unnecessary "protection group"
stuff (paint sealant, scotchguard, etc.) that the distibutor puts on all
Toyota's sold through the Southeast Toyota dealers (independents can avoid
this, but they require special orders). Basically I was willing to pay
the msrp but refused to pay for additions that I did not want on the car.
The guy should have started the paperwork right away, but instead insisted
that I test drive the car (which I wanted to do anyway) and kept making
gross exagerations about the car ("see that speedo, it goes to 150mph, and
this baby will do every bit of it") in an obvious attempt to sell me on it.
He went on and on about how "race bred" the motor was, how Toyota's are
so reliable that I wouldn't even need the two year warranty (although he
attempted to sell me an extended warranty later??), etc. etc. He came
extremely close to talking his way right out of a sure sale as I was about
to walk. When he finally realized that I was serious about buying the car,
the price it would take to put me in it had now dropped another $500 (my
price to put up with his annoying sales pitch). After the mandatory numerous
trips to his boss (the manager) they finally agreed to my price ($500 below
msrp, or $1,000 below their sticker price). He could have saved both of us a
lot of time and sold the car for $500 more if he just turned off the sales
pitch early on. Go figure.
-Bob
Andy Smith
The sales guy, Sam Shaw, at Saturn of Santa Ana, CA was great. Not
pushy, not filled with BS. Sam lacks the bluster of other dealers that
I have comde to hate. But my experience with other dealers were not as
nice...
Honda...
Dealer: "What can I do to get you to buy a car TODAY?"
me: "Nothing. I won't buy a car without discussing it with my
wife. We will however buy a new car this month and pay cash for
it."
Dealer: "Well, this is the 1996 civic."
me: "Do you have any documnetation I can read?"
Dealer: Reluctantly gives me the documentation along with a lecture
about how much these color glossy things pamphlets cost.
There was no offer to test drive, not much talking at all
until he wandered away. Perhaps he spotted someone who
wanted to buy today.
The attitude that we will show you the car when you are prepared to
buy irks the hell out of me.
Dodge...
Dealer: "What can I do to get you to buy a car TODAY?"
Me: (laughing) "You don't even know what car I want to buy."
Dealer: "What car?"
Me: "I want to look at a 4dr manual Neon."
We search the lot. The only one they have is blocked in. 3 or 4 cars
would have to be moved to get it out. I sit in it. I show interest.
Me: "Can I test drive it?"
Dealer: "No, we don't have the time to move all these cars, But it
you want to buy it TODAY..."
Great they will let me drive the car if I buy it. What Pals.
--------------
BTW: I did have one complaint about Saturn. I ended up placing 10,000
down and financing the rest through GMAC. When we left the sales guy and
went into the office of the finance guy he had us start signing papers
immediatly. He didn't tell us the loan rate, or any of that stuff. If the
rate was high I would have gone through my bank or scraped up the extra
cash somewhere. It is something I care about. All he seemed to care
about was the close. Then the part that really irks me. He shows us that
we have good credit and that we qualify for the "A" rate of 9%. That is
good. My bank said 10.5%. OK, lets do it. Bla bla bla... 36 payments of
$191. He says: "We reccomend that you include the 6year/60000mile extended
warrenty. I have included it in the contract." We didn't request that. I
would imagine that he reccomends the SL2 with leather, did he include
that as well? He goes on to tell us that it IS a good deal. 94% of the
car is covered for an additional 3 years. I hate extended warrenties
they are, almost without exception, a bad investment. This is a
personal campaign of mine. Never! Never! Never insure someting that you
can afford to replace. He then asks "Well, then do you want me to take
it out?". Yes, I answered.
I think in the end that I could only buy a car from Saturn. If I went
to another dealer with a bag of cash and wanted to pay list. I think
they would drive me from the lot. I just can't take these people.
Someday there will be a way to buy cars mail order from the factory at
dealers cost. I can imagine it, a big UPS truck arrives at the house,
you sign one form and the car is yours. Everyone can have the
features and color they want. They just can't have it TODAY.
-Andy
-----------
Andy Smith (sm...@skid.ps.uci.edu)
My opinions are mine and mine alone.
You can imagine how that makes me feel.
J.T. Campbell
iji...@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
>> In article <4b5c5c$3...@news.nstn.ca>, Bergman <eber...@lawmilcon.ca>
wrote:
>>
>> > Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
>> > question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
>> > auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
>> > buying experience.
>> >
>> >
>> > A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
>> >
(GM..I was desperate.) for 10 min. and it dies at a stop light, because 3
injectors were bad, and he has to push-y the car to the side of the road.
BTW- desperate means you still buy the car after they fix it,
first, last, and only GM I'll ever own.
Name withheld by request
>
Asks you for the keys to your trade-in so they can have
it "evaluated" by their mechanic, and then REFUSES to give
you the keys back.
At one dealer (Cherry Creek Dodge in Aurora, CO) the
customer had to throw a chair through one of their plate
glass windows. The cops came (because the dealer called)
the customer told the cops the dealer refused to give him
his car back, the customer drove away in his car and the
cops did not arrest or ticket the customer.
Other Denver dealers have also been caught doing this
practice. The Dealer Licensing Board (which supposedly
regulates dealers, but is mostly dealers on the board
so they don't do squat) usually gives the dealers a slap
on the wrist.
Car dealers are scum. They deserve to be treated like
scum, and they respect you when you treat them this way.
I've had some problems with Saturn and Saturn dealers,
but nothing like this.
Bonehead
Bruce Metelerkamp
car just left the show-room floor and I'm considering the extended warrantee?
(Should there be an FAQ I should read, please forgive me).
Bruce Metelerkamp br...@icfr.unp.ac.za
Wheels: 95(6) Opel Astra Estate (Vauxhall wagon for you!)
This message prompted me to ask...
Jeff Beaver
>Please fill me in on what's so bad about extended warrantee - my *first* new
>car just left the show-room floor and I'm considering the extended warrantee?
>(Should there be an FAQ I should read, please forgive me).
>
<Snip>
The extended warranty is one of the most profit laden items that the
dealer sells - which explains why they work so hard at selling it.
Just on general principle you want to avoid lineing the dealer's
pockets. To aggravate the situation, the guarantor behind the
warranty is often an obscure insurance company who could be belly up
when you make your big claim. If not, chances are good there is an
escape clause which lets them off the hook. "Sir, we're very sorry
about that bent cam shaft, but what did you expect? You were seven
miles late with the fourth oil change!"
If you want an extended warranty, talk to the agent who handles your
liability and collision. Sometimes they can offer an "all risk"
policy which covers essentially the same things as the dealer's
extended warranty - with fewer loop holes. You'll at least be dealing
with an insurance company that's less anxious to piss you off -- and
you won't need to pay for extra coverage until the manufacturer's
warranty is getting ready to expire. Your own insurance agent will
also refrain from curseing you to the seventh generation if you don't
buy it.
Jeff
David Mann
:Bergman wrote:
:*Thank you to the many netters who responded to my last
:*question. I am continuing my research, on behalf of one of the
:*auto manufacturers, into how they can improve the new car
:*buying experience.
:
:*Today's question is a "fill in the blank" style:
:
:*A salesperson comes across as being "pushy" when.....
:
:
:Say, can I have a copy of the final results forwarded to me?
:val...@mordor.com
Same here!
jac...@teleport.com
Jonathan Amato
<d-hi...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
>above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
>I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
>publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
You wanna hear about PUSHY?!
KARS-YES, in Atlanta, GA is perhaps the worst used-car dealership I've
ever had the misfortune to encounter. After having seen their TV ads,
I called them and told the salesman what I was looking for: an
American-maker 4-cylinder 4-door with an automatic transmission, and
that I was looking to make payments of about 200.00 a month. When I
went to the dealership, before I was shown a car, I had to fill out a
credit application. (Suspicious point number 1) I was told, "After
we run the credit report, we'll know what cars on our lot are in your
range."
After the credit report came back, the first car I was shown was a '91
Mazda 929, burgundy exterior with a chocolate-brown leather interior,
in terrific shape. No mention of the price. I wanted to look at
more because that wasn't the kind of car I was looking for.
Next I was shown a '91 Pontiac Sunbird, which was in decent shape. I
asked for a test-drive, but before I was allowed to test-drive the
car, he asked me for my driver's license. Fair enough, I said, since
the car I drove out there was only worth about $300. So I test-drove
the car, liked what I saw, and the sales-droid and I went inside to
talk price. Their asking price for the Pontiac was $10,500!!!! The
book value on that car was about 4 grand. The payments on that car
came out to 174.00 bi-weekly. At this point I reminded the salesman
that I was looking for a car in the $200 a month range, and that the
payments he was showing me weren't even in the ballpark of what I
could afford. His response was "Well, your income is high enough to
be able to afford those payments." I told him that I will decide
what I can afford, and may I have my driver's license back so I can
get out of there. He balked at that, wanting to show me a car that
was more in my price range. Fine.
He then tried to sell me an '87 Chevy Nova with 111,000 miles on it,
that wouldn't even start when the salesgeek tried to show me how good
it ran. Their asking price on that car was $7,000. Book value:
$1,800. In ,the meanwhile, my girlfriend (a non-driver who wouldn't
know a Pontiac from a Jaguar) and daughter were inside, being told by
another 2 salesmen that I was being unreasonable by not buying the
Pontiac at the inflated price, that I couldn't find a better deal
elsewhere, and maybe she could "Talk some sense into" me. As the
salesman was struggling with the Nova, I went back into the showroom
and told my girlfriend to take my daughter out to the car, that we
were leaving. As soon as my 2-year-old was out of earshot, I *loudly*
demanded my driver's license back, using language that would have made
a Tourette's patient cringe. To keep from losing every sucker in the
showroom, they returned my license, and I went on my way.
My problems with them weren't over. The next day, they called my
girlfriend again, to let her know that the Pontiac was still on the
lot, and that maybe she could buy it *for* me (we have a joint bank
account, and they knew this from the credit application.) They also
called my parents, who's names were on the credit application as
personal references, and told them that I was "having some financial
difficulties", and asked if they could "help me out". My parents live
900 miles away, and were not even aware that I was buying a car. The
salesman also called my boss , and asked if there was anything HE
could do.
I then called the salesman back, and informed him that if they did not
stop, I was going to send a letter to every newspaper, television, and
radio consumer-advocate in the state of Georgia and every other state
where they do business, detailing how I was treated at Kars-Yes. This
worked, and I haven't heard from them since.
THAT'S pushy.
xopher
jac...@teleport.com (David Mann):
>:ignorant salespeople are inexcusable. What do these idiots do with
>:their time when not harrassing potential customers?
>Drink. (seriously, who knows?)
You got it! They hit the bar after work! Seriously!
--
This station is conducting a test of the email broadcast system.
This is only a test.
xopher
jac...@teleport.com (David Mann):
>My brother had plenty of experience with Ford service depts around the US when
>he had a 1 tone dually diesel pickup. It was his last Ford. Why? The TRUCK
>was fine, it was the service depts that treated him so shabbily, even on paid
>work.
I heard that Ford requires you to bring your vehicle back to the
dealership you purchased it at for service.
xopher
>BTW: I did have one complaint about Saturn. I ended up placing 10,000
>down and financing the rest through GMAC.
When my wife & I were looking for our first new car in '93, we went to
a Saturn dealership first. They were courteous but made no effort to
help us get financing. A Chevrolet salesman was able to let us take
delivery on a new Cavalier, before the loan was even finalized! It's
given us 60,000 miles with no major problems, just scheduled
maintenance items like tires, front brake pads, and shocks.
Adam Szymczak
Jonathan Amato <jam...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:10:29 GMT, Dave Hillman
><d-hi...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> It occurs to me that, perhaps, with specific examples such as the
>>above, posters could/should mention the dealership in question by name.
>>I'm a big proponent of discouraging inappropriate treatment with ( bad )
>>publicity. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
>
> You wanna hear about PUSHY?!
>
> KARS-YES, in Atlanta, GA is perhaps the worst used-car dealership I've
>ever had the misfortune to encounter. After having seen their TV ads,
>I called them and told the salesman what I was looking for: an
>American-maker 4-cylinder 4-door with an automatic transmission, and
>that I was looking to make payments of about 200.00 a month. When I
>went to the dealership, before I was shown a car, I had to fill out a
>credit application. (Suspicious point number 1) I was told, "After
>we run the credit report, we'll know what cars on our lot are in your
>range."
Fatal flaw number one: Never reveal what level of a car payment you are
willing to make. They will always tailor the deal to get as close as
possible to your magic monthly number. Of course this does not mean you
have received the best deal.
Fatal flaw number two: You should have said that you would fill out the
credit application once you have test driven some cars and only after you
have negotiated a price.
> Next I was shown a '91 Pontiac Sunbird, which was in decent shape. I
>asked for a test-drive, but before I was allowed to test-drive the
>car, he asked me for my driver's license. Fair enough, I said, since
>the car I drove out there was only worth about $300.
Fatal Flaw Number Three: Why would they need your driver's license before
you test-drove the car? Let me get this straight, while you were
test-driving the car, where exactly was your license? I can think of only
one possibility: that they ask you if you actually have a driver's
license, but there is no need for them to take the license
> My problems with them weren't over. The next day, they called my
>girlfriend again, to let her know that the Pontiac was still on the
>lot, and that maybe she could buy it *for* me (we have a joint bank
>account, and they knew this from the credit application.) They also
>called my parents, who's names were on the credit application as
>personal references, and told them that I was "having some financial
>difficulties", and asked if they could "help me out". My parents live
>900 miles away, and were not even aware that I was buying a car. The
>salesman also called my boss , and asked if there was anything HE
>could do.
Refer to Fatal Flaw number 2.
Adam Szymczak
>Bruce Metelerkamp <met...@gis1.icfrnet.unp.ac.za> wrote:
>
>>Please fill me in on what's so bad about extended warrantee - my *first* new
>>car just left the show-room floor and I'm considering the extended warrantee?
>>(Should there be an FAQ I should read, please forgive me).
>>
><Snip>
>The extended warranty is one of the most profit laden items that the
>dealer sells - which explains why they work so hard at selling it.
>Just on general principle you want to avoid lineing the dealer's
>pockets. To aggravate the situation, the guarantor behind the
>warranty is often an obscure insurance company who could be belly up
>when you make your big claim. If not, chances are good there is an
>escape clause which lets them off the hook. "Sir, we're very sorry
>about that bent cam shaft, but what did you expect? You were seven
>miles late with the fourth oil change!"
Dead on right. After my wife and I had negotiated a price on a Demo 1995
Pontiac Sunfire we had ran into some problems regarding the start date of
the warranty and such. The saleslady told us one thing while the sales
manager said another. I told them the deal was in jeopardy if they did
not do something. There solution was to SELL me an extended warranty at
cost. Cost was $305, Dealer List was $795. Pure profit of $490 to the
dealer. Not bad. I said I want the warranty for free because your
salesperson screwed up not me. They didn't budge. I even offered going
half way at $150, Nope. My wife and I said Bye Bye.
Adam Szymczak
>This appeared to have been posted from the account
>
>
>>My brother had plenty of experience with Ford service depts around the US when
>>he had a 1 tone dually diesel pickup. It was his last Ford. Why? The TRUCK
>>was fine, it was the service depts that treated him so shabbily, even on paid
>>work.
>
>I heard that Ford requires you to bring your vehicle back to the
>dealership you purchased it at for service.
I don't know about Ford, but GM "recommends" that regular
maintenance be performed at a GM dealer, however, you can get worked
performed whereever you want, you just have to retain a copy of the
receipt and work performed, in case of warranty problems.
Ford can only require you to bring your vehicle to a Ford dealer if it
says in the warranty that for the warranty to remain valid, all work must
be performed at an approved Ford dealer. Read the warranty that came with
your car.
David Mann
:This appeared to have been posted from the account
:jac...@teleport.com (David Mann):
:
:
:>My brother had plenty of experience with Ford service depts around the US
when
:>he had a 1 tone dually diesel pickup. It was his last Ford. Why? The
TRUCK
:>was fine, it was the service depts that treated him so shabbily, even on
paid
:>work.
:
:I heard that Ford requires you to bring your vehicle back to the
:dealership you purchased it at for service.
Even on warranty that is not necessarily true. I am talking about PAID work
where he was treated shabbily.
Ken Warner
>From: rhar...@aol.com (RHardiman)
>Subject: Re: bad dealerships keeping keys
>Date: 22 Dec 1995 09:44:04 -0500
you are all WRONG... You should call GM Directly or call Saturn Customer
Satisfaction line... bull shit like that will get a dealerships licence
yanked in a New York minute!!! After that I'd make a call to my local
better business bureau... Screw the General Manager he should know what his
salesmen are doing don't waste your quarter... After all this I'd then call
Saturn and or GM to find out what is being done... be a pest...
Cat
>you are all WRONG... You should call GM Directly or call Saturn Customer
>Satisfaction line... bull shit like that will get a dealerships licence
>Saturn and or GM to find out what is being done... be a pest...
Just to clarify this: I don't think ANY Saturn dealership ANYWHERE will keep
your keys on your trade-in to try to get a deal out of you. This article is
only in the Saturn newsgroup, as it's a car with dealerships like the rest of
them. The difference is that it's a dealership that doesn't seem peopled by
scum trying to take all your money.
Saturn has nothing to gain by holding on to your keys. Either you pay the
sticker price, or you don't. If you do, here's your new car. If you don't,
have a nice day.
This is why I currently own a Saturn. :-)
Cat ----------------------------------------- |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) ---------
c...@rumpleteazer.feline.org /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
c...@va.pubnix.com |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
http://www.feline.org/feline/ --------------'---''(_/--' (_/-' -----F.Lee----
Cory Woodrow
wev...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Robert T. Weverka) wrote:
> Bruce Metelerkamp <met...@gis1.icfrnet.unp.ac.za> writes:
>
> >Please fill me in on what's so bad about extended warrantee - my *first* new
> >car just left the show-room floor and I'm considering the extended warrantee?
>
> Most extended warrantees are so full of profit and leave so little
> "insurance" that you are better off insuring yourself.
>
> Insuring yourself means taking the money you would have paid for insurance
> and putting it in a bank account, and if a part of the car breaks you
> deny your own claim. Less paper work that way.
If I get an overly pushy warantee salesperson. Especially for electronics,
I just say :"Actually I'm a qualified <insert product or brand name> so,
if it broke i'd repair it myself." This works every time.
Cory Woodrow
cwoo...@sentex.net
Mark
Your experience sounds familiar to me. I had a similar thing happen to
me at a Chevy dealer in Maryland. I had to ask the guy to let me test
drive the car (most of the places I went offered before I could
ask...makes sense to me, if they want to sell you the car, the car is
what's going to have to sell me, not the salesman). When I asked to test
drive the car, the guy asked me, "are you here to buy or just test
drive?" Before it really hit me what he was saying, he was already on
his way for the keys. I was pissed and was going to leave while he was
in the store, but decided, "what the hell, he's getting the keys, so I'll
drive it, but I'll buy from another dealer if I like the car." After I
test drove it, he wanted to go inside and talk numbers.
He first gave me a figure and said, "now that's the best I can do." I
laughed at him and said, "no way am I paying that much." He asked me
what I was willing to pay. I told him there was no use because it wasn't
even close to what he was asking. He said, "I've been in this business a
long time, try me." Ohh, and before he said that, he said, "I can work
with you a little on the price." I thought he just told me he made his
best offer?!?! I told him my price and he said, "ohh, no way! We can't
even work with that figure. Come back after you look elsewhere and
you're serious."
I went elsewhere and bought another car. Mailed GM and the dealership a
letter telling them my experience and to tell Charlie (the salesman) that
I guess I was out to buy, just not from them with that kind of treatment.
((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((())
() mmc...@zeus.towson.edu () Mark () SPACE FOR RENT ()
() /\ /\ ()
() If at first you don't succeed, then sky diving is not for you. ()
((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((()))((())
Tom Mako
>
>After thinking about it, and with the number of dealerships in the Dallas
>area, I'd probably go with option 2 any time. At the same time, I've
>never had this happen to me so far when test-driving cars. They usually
>just want a photocopy of my license and insurance or something like that.
>
While I agree that any reputable dealership probably needs to make a copy
of your license for insurance purposes, I have heard of several cases where
the dealership won't give you the license back in much the same fashion as
the keys....
tom
Mario Nunez
victims.
My wife and I took the kids to the auto show here in Buffalo (NY) back in
'93 to look at all the dealers together in one place. It seemed easier
than driving all over the county to be insulted and harassed, when we
could be conveniently insulted and harassed in one place.
My wife had been driving a leased '89 Corolla, a wonderful little car
that had never given any kind of problem. I was driving a 16 year old
Volvo wagon.
So, the VW salesman told us that we were stupid for driving a Toyota.
How's that for trying to get our business. The Toyota salesman was too
busy to talk to us. And on and on, stupidity, cupidity and sloth.
The next day we wandered out to the Saturn dealership and bought our
first one, a '93 SL1, now joined in the driveway by a '95 SW1 which
replaced my old Volvo.
On a different twist to using size as an advantage, the local scum
dealership has a guy in "customer relations" who they call out when a
customer is very upset. He's close to seven feet tall and must go four
hundred pounds. I'm 5'5" and 140, but when they wanted to charge me $800
to do warranty work, I was not impressed by the gorilla and said so, loud
enough thatthey backed down very fast.
There's a special spot in hell reserved for those scum.
Mario
Paul W. Latour
Jonathan,
With respect, remenber you are the consumer and the potential source
of the dealer's income. Never agree to a credit check before getting
down to the actual purchase details. The dealer has no right to
personal info such as you disclosed. Also, why finance with the
dealer? Deal with your day-to-day financial institution where your
record is known. Dealers of used cars use high-risk, high-price
financing sources that are not a good credit buddy: one missed payment
and repo man arrives.
Re leaving your driver's license; forget it. A good salesman will
accompany you with the test drive. If he/she will not, walk.
Enough of this criticism! Have a nice Christmas. Hope you found a
decent car for your needs.
Louis Karnbach
A local Chevorlet dealership fired me up. I stopped in to look. I love cars but I
new I couldn't or shouldn't afford one. This salesman convinced me to take a vehicle
home. What can I say I love cars! I brought it back because it had a real bad
shimmy. He then showed me a newer and much nicer vehicle. The wife loved it, alot!
So I went back to find out what this thing costs. I don't like to haggle and they're
offer was too much. See ya later guys!
I had duty that night (US Navy) and the wife calls me 4 times. With each call the
salesman came closer to my offer. The 4th call was what I said I would pay. Great!
This is a good deal! I told the wife to have him get the paperwork together, that
I'll see him tomorrow.
Only then did the haggling start! I was angry! After 4 trips to the manager my offer
was approved. Now were off to the Finance guy. He prints out the agreement with
totally different numbers. Now I'm vocal, very vocal. I'm telling these people to
return my vehicle or I'll call the cops! The young sailors in the showroom are
whiching this Senior Chief Petty Officer (me) just freaking out! The finance guy
calls the boss (the dealer's son?). He apologizes that I've been treated this way
and ofcourse his dealership will honor my offer. I've got a headache, I'm fuming mad
but it's not over yet!
I'm home cleaning this vehicle. I pull out the receipt for the State Inspection. The
VIN numbers match. The odometer doesn't. Not even close. The vehicle had been
inspected very recently with a difference of 30K!
I know I could of had someone's a--. I was just exhausted from this episode. I wish
I had kept that receipt and went back to the dealership.
The dealership is in Va. Beach, VA. I will never go back.
Ken Bell
> I'm home cleaning this vehicle. I pull out the receipt for the State
> Inspection. The VIN numbers match. The odometer doesn't. Not even
> close. The vehicle had been inspected very recently with a difference
> of 30K!
> I know I could of had someone's a--. I was just exhausted from this
> episode. I wish I had kept that receipt and went back to the
> dealership.
> The dealership is in Va. Beach, VA. I will never go back.
You may not need the receipt, if you threw it out. I'd bet that the State
Inspection office has a record of the information! Ask for it, make copies,
and report it to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. They
have an Auto Safety Hotline that will permit you to talk with someone about
this ... 1-800-424-9393 (or, in D.C., 202-366-0123).
Odometer tampering is a FELONY! Don't get mad, get even ;-)
--
Ken Bell :: ken...@panix.com :: (212) 475-4976 (voice)
======== :: sy...@giss.nasa.gov :: (212) 678-5516 (voice), 678-5552 (fax)
David Mann
lo...@pinn.net (Louis Karnbach) wrote:
:whiching this Senior Chief Petty Officer (me) just freaking out! The finance
:calls the boss (the dealer's son?). He apologizes that I've been treated
this way
:and ofcourse his dealership will honor my offer. I've got a headache, I'm
fuming mad
:but it's not over yet!
:I'm home cleaning this vehicle. I pull out the receipt for the State
:VIN numbers match. The odometer doesn't. Not even close. The vehicle had
been
:inspected very recently with a difference of 30K!
Let's see, you're a Chief in the Navy. Surely you have access to the JAG at
your base or ship.. He'd have the dealer posted Off Limits in a heartbeat.,
and make the dealer really sweat.
When I was in Pensacola, we put several dealers out to dry for this kind of
crap.
David J. Mann
Ex-CTR3 USN (fired [weight control])
Chris
wrote in rec.autos.4x4:
>Fatal flaw number one: Never reveal what level of a car payment you are
>willing to make. They will always tailor the deal to get as close as
>possible to your magic monthly number. Of course this does not mean you
>have received the best deal.
As a rule, you should avoid financing through dealerships. If you have
any sort of decent credit rating, you can get a better deal from your
bank. Even the "0% down" sales pressure is just that- pressure to get you
to sign on the dotted line. There's nothing magical about 0%-down
financing. My last two vehicles were both purchased with equity-deficient
bank loans (the size of the loan was larger than the retail value of the
vehicle, so that I wouldn't even have to come up with the taxes), and for
the most recent loan I even managed to negotiate a loan rate that was a
full percentage point below the posted rates. Banks are a business, after
all, and many are adopting a more competitive way of thinking.
>Fatal flaw number two: You should have said that you would fill out the
>credit application once you have test driven some cars and only after you
>have negotiated a price.
Unfortunately, the first rule of effective salesmanship is that you have
to "qualify the customer". This means that the salesman has to figure out
not only if the customer is willing to be sold, but also if he is able to
afford being sold. In a worst-case scenario not only does the salesman
waste his time on a lost cause, but real customers with real money may
wander off while he's at it. A *good* salesman can use a variety of
observation skills and "innocent questions" to weed out the genuine
customers from the "tire kickers", but some dealers prefer a more direct
approach.
>Fatal Flaw Number Three: Why would they need your driver's license before
>you test-drove the car? Let me get this straight, while you were
>test-driving the car, where exactly was your license? I can think of only
>one possibility: that they ask you if you actually have a driver's
>license, but there is no need for them to take the license
When I went to the motorcycle dealership to test-drive my bike, they asked
for my license. The salesman said that he needed to make a photocopy of
it for their insurance. This sounds reasonable for a motorcycle, since I
obviously didn't test drive the bike with a salesman on the back. :-P
They also need to protect themselves against both theft and the risk of
someone without a license having an accident, which would probably
invalidate their insurance coverage.
--
Chris Rasley, Moncton, NB, Canada <cpra...@nbnet.nb.ca>
ATC (Moncton ACC), Private Pilot, Computer Geek, Coffee Addict
Wheels: '95 Ducati 900SSCR, '91 Jeep Renegade
Chris
rec.autos.4x4:
>When my wife & I were looking for our first new car in '93, we went to
>a Saturn dealership first. They were courteous but made no effort to
>help us get financing. A Chevrolet salesman was able to let us take
>delivery on a new Cavalier, before the loan was even finalized! It's
>given us 60,000 miles with no major problems, just scheduled
>maintenance items like tires, front brake pads, and shocks.
You're *NOT* going to believe this, but.... I had travelled 180 miles to
another city to test drive a Ducati motorcycle. I had already been to the
bank and discussed getting a loan in the most general of terms, but hadn't
signed anything. I had also talked to an insurance company in yet another
city 130 miles in the *opposite direction* about insurance. I sat at home
and made up my mind. Finally I decided to go for it (which hardly needs
explaining if you've ever driven a Ducati, but that's another newsgroup
entirely). Unfortunately, scheduling all the required trips in the right
order turned out to be a nightmare and the only reasonable pick-up date
ended up ahead of all of the paperwork. I managed to get over-the-phone
authorization for the loan ("go buy the bike and drop by the bank later to
fill out the loan application, and we'll hold the cheque for you so it
doesn't bounce") *and* over-the-phone insurance ("call us with the VIN and
we'll insure you on an unsigned policy until you can come up and take care
of the paperwork"), and managed to convince the dealership to accept an
uncertified cheque drawn on a personal account that we all knew had
insufficient funds! The sales manager admitted that my methods were a bit
unusual (!), but let me have the bike anyway. I'm not sure who was the
better salesman here, me or the motorcycle dealer.... :-P
tar...@wam.umd.edu
Hahahahah Reading that brings some good memories back to my own
experience for august :>
I also drove 180 miles to a dealership for my ducati, but I had a
check for 7700 with me, and my insurance co was aware of the switch.
360 miles later I was home, my GF who was driving the car behind me
was mad, and my grin was permenantly affixed to my face ;> :> :>
God I love my bike!
Scot - Ducati 900SS/CR '95
Getting new pipes, Jetkit, and maybe a corbin seat?!
Brenda Moran
>
>In article <kenw.43....@erinet.com>, Ken Warner <ke...@erinet.com> wrote:
>>you are all WRONG... You should call GM Directly or call Saturn Customer
>>Satisfaction line... bull shit like that will get a dealerships licence
When I visited Saturn of N Olmsted to check out the Saturns, we were left
alone to borwse the lot. We were waved at by a curious gentleman who
yelled he was Mike & if we needed him just to come inside. No breathing
down our back.
When we went in to meet with Mike, and test drove many models & falling
in love with my '95 blue/black SW1 (never guessing I'd drive a station
wagon!). Mike never went with us on the test drives. Then when I went
to give him the keys to my '89 Civic for a trade in evaluation, he told
me to give him just THE KEY and not my ring full.
Then when we picked up "Buffer" (my name for my guardian angel of a car,
like the ring announcer in his Armani tuxes) we were give 2 keys (one for
me & one for my husband). We requested a 3rd for the safe at home & it
was made pronto & FREE. Then a credit card key shows up within a month.
A free tank of gas after our Bon Voyage party at the dealership & now
you know why I currently own a Saturn. &:-)
Brenda
'95 SW1 Blue/Black "Buffer"
Ross A. Jacobs
headed up to a Dodge dealership in Salisbury, MA. Why? Got a flyer that
said "New 1996 Intrepid...$14,999!!!". As Intrepids usually list for
about $18.5K, I drove up there. Of course the ad was a "misprint". They
had documentation from the company that produced the flyers that "proved" it.
That's a dealer issue, though, not a salesperson. At that same
dealership they pulled the "I lost your car key" trick...I was suspicious
about it but didn't realize it was a ploy until just now. What are they
trying to prove? Am I going to change my mind while they're "looking"
for the car keys?
Another dealership: salesman tells me he's not going to make any money
at the price I offered him. "What about the $540 in holdback?" I ask.
"What we make for our holdback is none of your business", he says. AMF.
Third place--the one I ended up buying from, reluctantly--salesperson
tells me about the speed-sensitive steering and 8-speaker stereo on the
base model Intrepid. I thumb through the glossy and point out that those
were available only on the ES model; he said "I dunno about the stereo,
but I'm pretty sure you get the speed sensitive steering". THEN he
misspells my name AND writes the wrong VIN on the bill of sale. We shake
hands on an offer of $17,006, including a full-size spare; his sales
manager nixes it. Why give him the power to deal if he's going to get
overridden?
So, Mr. Bergman: Pushy is when a salesman uses BS to cover up a lack of
product knowledge. Pushy is when they start getting snide at an educated
customer with a pricing summary. Pushy is when they use the sales
manager (the "restrictive third party") as an excuse for not getting you
your price.
And--one more horror story--pushy is when they deliver a different car
than the one you thought you bought, with a different set of options, and
try to get you to "take it the way it is" or pay extra money!!
I love the car; I hated all three Dodge dealerships I went to. I slammed
them on the Chrysler survey. Besides that and whining up on the
Internet, what can you do?
-Ross
ro...@shore.net
Bill Heck
Some years ago, at local Toyota dealer, we had our first and so far only instance of a
salesperson calling us "stupid." My wife and I were looking for a car, told the salesperson we
were looking and weren't prepared to buy that day, etc. The salesperson (saleskid would be more
like it) couldn't really show us a car that we were interested in at that point anyway, although
he was nice enough. But before we left, he wanted to introduce us to his manager, who proceeded
to point out what a wonderful sale they were having and, conincidentally, it would be over at
midnight so we really ought to just buy a car right away. It was after we said that we really
were going to look around that he declared that we were stupid for doing so.
The salesperson called me a few days later to see how we were doing. I felt rather sorry for
him as I explained that we weren't going to do business with an establishment whose sales
managers insulted us to our faces. Could it be that they considered insulting potential
customers a good sales tactic?
We ended up buying a Toyota at another dealership. This time we negotaited a trade in and
price and the saleperson went off to get the obligatory "manager's approval." Of course, he
came back telling us that the manager just wouldn't go for the deal. Having been warned about
this one, I simply asked him directly what his function was in this disucssion if he couldn't do
the deal. He must have been tired of the game, as he replied that his function was to extract
as much money from me as possible. After laughing for awhile and congratulating him on his
honesty, we told him to tell his manager that if we didn't have a deal, we were off to look at
Hondas. Naturally, he returned a moment later to announce that we were all set.
This sort of thing helps explain why we are driving Saturns rather than Toyotas!
Wayne Marsh
> While I agree that any reputable dealership probably needs to make a copy
> of your license for insurance purposes, I have heard of several cases where
> the dealership won't give you the license back in much the same fashion as
> the keys....
Maybe the prudent car shoppper arms himself with a couple photocopies of
his license BEFORE he goes to the dealer's, then hands the salesman a copy
instead of the original license, if asked.
--
Wayne....@cdev.com Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Gayle Snedecor
> you know why I currently own a Saturn. &:-)
>
> Brenda
> '95 SW1 Blue/Black "Buffer"
They'll treat you just as well at any other dealership if you walk in
and plunk down the full manufacturers suggested retail price! Saturns
have one of the highest markups of any manufacturer (according to
Edmunds) and since they won't dicker, you end up "paying" for that
little bon voyage party (about 17%).
I got treated well at a Chrysler dealership in Angleton, TX, and I paid
22,000 for a 32,000 list price customized van. They would have given me
one HECK of a party had I given the full list price.
Brad A. Willet
>> While I agree that any reputable dealership probably needs to make a
> copy
>> of your license for insurance purposes, I have heard of several cases
> where
>> the dealership won't give you the license back in much the same fashion
> as
>> the keys....
>
>Maybe the prudent car shoppper arms himself with a couple photocopies of
>his license BEFORE he goes to the dealer's, then hands the salesman a copy
>instead of the original license, if asked.
>
Ah, but if one does this, then one never finds out that the dealership in
question is foul, and might actually end up buying a vehicle from the
schmucks! I'd rather have to get angry and demand my license back and then
leave, than never know...
Anne Brink
pairs. Most salescritters started selling my hubby the car, and maybe
mentioned to me, Oh, by the way, it has this nice stereo. This means that
my poor hubby had to listen to the guy's spiel, so I took advantage of this
and did uninterrupted information gathering of the cars on the lot.
We had one thing going for us: We decided that no matter how long we had to
wait for the car, we would, even if that meant bussing all over the universe.
I conveniently totalled the last one at the end of the calendar year.
The Mazda dealers were downright funny, it was so blatant. I belong to
a credit union that lets us use a buying service with a prenegotiated price.
So the theater moved to a different scene. They had many high end 323's on
their lot, in beige and white.
"No, UBS does not /have/ drop off charges. We can wait for one in green. I
thought you were the UBS rep here, you should know that."
"No, you put in 'floormats' twice there, it's in that package. Take that
line item out."
"I don't care if Mazda makes only *3* of the low end package model per year,
we can wait for some other dealer to ship one. We don't *want* the high
end package models on your lot."
"Why does it take 2 of you and 30 minutes to add up 15 numbers?"
"No, we don't want a free phone if we take the one off of your lot, I don't
care if you're knocking $100 of the UBS price. We don't *want* white or
beige."
"Let's call Chuck to give us a lift to the Saturn dealership, I want you to
see this other car, and maybe you'll have more leg room."
(Dealer: >groan< If you go to Saturn, you'll never be back.)
"That confident, are we? And NO, I said we don't WANT a carphone."
Much to our amazement, the local Saturn had been open about a week or two,
and had all these cars on the lot, and we didn't have to wait. And it
did have more legroom for my hubby. The only thing the Mazda would have
given us was a stiffer trunk for a trunk bike rack, to be honest.
The Saturn dealer also let us *leave* the dealership, even his LOT, when
we told him we were not going to make a decision on any car dealer's premises.
-A.
Chris Mauritz
: > A free tank of gas after our Bon Voyage party at the dealership & now
I personally don't care what the markup is. What's important is
that the buyer feels like they're getting what they paid for. I
also resent having to dick around with a smarmy salesman over the
cost of every little line item on the invoice. Why should cars
be any different than buying any other consumer product? I've
owned Fords, Nissans, and Saturns. My current car is a Saturn (as
were my last 2 cars) and I feel it's one of the best bangs for the
buck you can find. Anyone doing a bit of research also soon finds
that Saturn has one of the highest reliability records, safety
records, and is behind only Lexus and Infinity in the JD Power
owner satisfaction survey.
Happy motoring...
Chris
--
Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
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jjt
I have been reading this thread for a while and I am surprised at the number
of people who have had problems with dealers. Unless you tell them otherwise,
the salespersons will assume that you are planning to buy a car today and
will do anything to keep you at the dealership. When I shop for a car I set
the ground rules in the first 10 seconds and then I dont have any problems.
When I am interested in a test drive only, I tell them that I am not going
to purchase a car today and I am interested in a brochure and test drive only.
I indicate that I have several more cars to test drive before I will make
a decision. Occasionally someone will start in with the line about "what will
it take to get you to purchase today". I simply ask them if they have a hearing
problem. Regarding getting your drivers license back, follow them over to the
copy machine and after they make a copy get your original back.
Regards,
Jim Tuccillo
j...@randomc.com
Shyamal Prasad
>> A free tank of gas after our Bon Voyage party at the dealership
>> & now you know why I currently own a Saturn. &:-)
>>
>> Brenda '95 SW1 Blue/Black "Buffer"
Gayle> They'll treat you just as well at any other dealership if
Gayle> you walk in and plunk down the full manufacturers suggested
Gayle> retail price!
I am sure that is perfectly true. The difference is that Saturn offers
you a retail price that is good value up front.
For $13.5K (*all* inclusive) I got my 94 SL, delivered the next day
with the passenger side mirror I requested. I could not find a better
value at that time.
I had walked into the Saturn place because I had lunch across it while
shopping for a small car at the usual Honda/Toyata/Nissan places. If
I'd known better I'd just have gone to the Saturn place and not wasted
my time and energy arguing with salepersons who insisted I did not
need ABS because "it never rains in Texas". Yeah, sure. They must all
go to Florida or some place over winter with all the money they
make........
The only thing about Saturn that really pissed me off was the $75
floor mats. Can't believe they tried to do that.
I will admit that Saturn is probably losing ground to the newer models
from it's competitors. I probably will never buy a Saturn again seeing
how other makes have really caught up, but I will certainly *never*
complain about paying Saturn's sticker price.
Cheers
Shyamal
--
"Washing and Bathing in the crocodile infested river is prohibited.
Survivors will be prosecuted."
- Sign in the Mudumalai Wildlife Sanctuary, Tamil Nadu, India.
I speak for me, only me, and just me......
Christopher Lawson
When to Rosenthal Nissan in VA. The salewomen insisted that before
we could even talk pricing that I had to give her a deposit of $20 that
would be refundable if we couldn't agree on a price.
I told her that I didn't have $20 on me and she immediately said that
couldn't get the invoice without at least some deposit and asked what
I did have on me. She claimed it was the dealerships policy. Obviously
you wouldn't want to leave if they had your $20 and they wanted to control
when you left.
I pulled out a quarter, said "Here's my deposit, go get the stinking
invoice. Anymore bullshit, and I'm leaving and you can keep the quarter."
I ended up walking out without the quartser when she would talk in total
price but keep babbling about monthly payments. Damn confusing when
you have to keep translating payments into a total price.
############################
# Chris Lawson #
# law...@oasys.dt.navy.mil #
############################
Wayne Marsh
> I love the car; I hated all three Dodge dealerships I went to. I slammed
> them on the Chrysler survey. Besides that and whining up on the
> Internet, what can you do?
Sorry, but I think that's the wrong attitude. You bought the car anyhow,
thereby making them think that that's the way they should do business.
What you can do is vote with your money. Don't buy from the schlock
dealers, and tell the owners of the offending dealerships, and Chrysler
Corp., WHY you didn't buy from them, and where you spent your money
elsewhere.
Jon N. Steiger
: Gayle Snedecor (gs...@sat.net) wrote:
: : > A free tank of gas after our Bon Voyage party at the dealership & now
: : > you know why I currently own a Saturn. &:-)
: : >
: : > Brenda
: : > '95 SW1 Blue/Black "Buffer"
: : They'll treat you just as well at any other dealership if you walk in
: : and plunk down the full manufacturers suggested retail price! Saturns
: : have one of the highest markups of any manufacturer (according to
: : Edmunds) and since they won't dicker, you end up "paying" for that
: : little bon voyage party (about 17%).
: : I got treated well at a Chrysler dealership in Angleton, TX, and I paid
: : 22,000 for a 32,000 list price customized van. They would have given me
: : one HECK of a party had I given the full list price.
: I personally don't care what the markup is. What's important is
: that the buyer feels like they're getting what they paid for. I
: also resent having to dick around with a smarmy salesman over the
: cost of every little line item on the invoice. Why should cars
: be any different than buying any other consumer product? I've
They aren't. You don't have to negotiate price at all if you
don't want to. Walk into a dealership, and plunk MSRP down into
the hand of the salesman with the HUGE grin on his face. Its as
easy as that. The reason people negotiate is because they *can*.
Its just that it is traditionally much more common to negotiate over a
car than a toaster, so people take advantage of the oportunity to save
some money when buying an automobile. You're perfectly welcome to shop at
Saturn of course, but please don't think that the lack of negotiation
over price is a selling point. ANY dealership would be more than happy
to accept MSRP for a car. However, when a dealership *forces* you to pay
MSRP, its time to cry "foul".
: owned Fords, Nissans, and Saturns. My current car is a Saturn (as
: were my last 2 cars) and I feel it's one of the best bangs for the
: buck you can find. Anyone doing a bit of research also soon finds
: that Saturn has one of the highest reliability records, safety
: records, and is behind only Lexus and Infinity in the JD Power
: owner satisfaction survey.
Those are selling points. An inflated, non-negotiable price tag isn't.
-Jon-
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Jon Steiger == DoD# 1038 == USUA# A46209 == NMA# 117376 == KotWitDoDFAQ |
| stei...@cs.fredonia.edu && http://www.cs.fredonia.edu/~stei0302/ |
| '96 Dakota SLT V-8, '91 FZR600R /* Just another mangy hacker */ |
`-------------------------------------------------------------------------'
Adam Szymczak
>I have been reading this thread for a while and I am surprised at the number
>of people who have had problems with dealers. Unless you tell them otherwise,
>the salespersons will assume that you are planning to buy a car today and
>will do anything to keep you at the dealership. When I shop for a car I set
>the ground rules in the first 10 seconds and then I dont have any problems.
>When I am interested in a test drive only, I tell them that I am not going
>to purchase a car today and I am interested in a brochure and test drive only.
>I indicate that I have several more cars to test drive before I will make
>a decision. Occasionally someone will start in with the line about "what will
>it take to get you to purchase today". I simply ask them if they have a hearing
>problem. Regarding getting your drivers license back, follow them over to the
>copy machine and after they make a copy get your original back.
>
>Regards,
> Jim Tuccillo
> j...@randomc.com
I agree. My wife and I went browsing at cars to see what is available,
prices, get brochures, etc. The first place we went to, the salesperson
if we were interested in buying a car. We said we are looking to buy a
car but are just looking around and getting information. Went for a test
drive, gave us a brochure and took our name and number, that was it, no
hard sell, no hassle.
Lay down the ground rules. Don't fork over your licence, your keys,
anything. If it gets out of hand, LEAVE!
--
Yours truly,
Adam Szymczak, BA Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)
szy...@server.uwindsor.ca University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Carl Bowman
Bruce Metelerkamp <met...@gis1.icfrnet.unp.ac.za> wrote:
>Please fill me in on what's so bad about extended warrantee - my *first* new
>car just left the show-room floor and I'm considering the extended warrantee?
>
>Bruce Metelerkamp br...@icfr.unp.ac.za
>Wheels: 95(6) Opel Astra Estate (Vauxhall wagon for you!)
>
>This message prompted me to ask...
>
>>...he won't take "no" for an answer when it comes to the extended
>>warrantee. When I bought my most recent TV, I said "no" about 5 times to
>>the salesman before he caught on. Then the sales manager came over and
>>*he* tried to sell me the extended warrantee. I said "no" again. Even at
>>the cash register, the cashiers are trained to catch the missing extended
>>warrantee, and she offered to call over another salesman to explain it to
>>me. At that point, I was ready to put away my wallet and leave. If any
>>product so bad that it *needs* an extended warrantee, I don't want that
>>product. (I did buy the TV-- the price was unbeatable. I also warned all
>>my friends not to go there.)
>
It all depends on perspective. Some people don't want to pay extra
for any option, even potentially beneficial items.
Here's my perspective and opinion:
I hate replacing worn out or damaged items. I feel it's my way of
conserving resources by not adding to the world's junkpile. I also
have a knack for getting superb deals on merchandise. If it's a
throwaway item like an office stereo or small TV or one that will
become obsolete then I won't get a warantee. I will probably lose or
get tired of the item before it needs warantee work. However, if it's
an item that I spent considerable time researching, like a large TV or
an auto, I'll consider an extended warantee. My bacon has been saved
several times by such warantees. I had an engine replaced right
before the extended warantee ran out and LONG after the original
warantee. My first VCR (over 15 years old) still works nicely because
I kept renewing the extended warantee. ... Just wish I had the
extended warantee on the dead radio sitting next to me. :(
Now, as for auto salesmen, I solved that problem YEARS ago. I buy
from one salesman. Period. I trust him and he trusts me. When I'm
looking for something, I call him and he calls me when it's in.
I look at cars on Sundays when the lots are closed. By the time I am
ready to buy, I already know what I want. (My salesman is so attuned
to my tastes now that I was able to buy my last car sight unseen on
his recommendation and it was PERFECT and an unbelievable deal!)
When I used to go into an unfamiliar dealership, I would look for the
salesman I thought acted the most like me, and I would always dress
for business and carry a briefcase. I would often walk right in the
door and straight up to a salesman without stopping at any car and
say, "I'm just looking. I'm definitely not buying today, but I'm
serious. I tend to take a long time. If you're busy, can you direct
me to another salesman?" They snap right in line when you make your
game plan perfectly clear.
I'm a pushy buyer!
Carl Bowman
Dan Melinger
Not quite, Jon.
When the Mazda Miatas were first shipping to the U.S, the MSRP ($13,000) was NOT
enough. The supply was low and demand so great that dealers weren't selling them
for less than $18,000 (much to Mazda's chagrin). MSRP really is irrelevant,
customers are expected to bargain the dealer down to true market value.
Saturn's attitude is "this is what we believe to be the market value, take it
or leave it". If you believe the market value is that amount or greater, buy it.
If you believe the market value is less, don't buy it.
Would you spend $20,000 for a Yugo because a company sets the MSRP to $30,000?
Of course not. Would you buy a Mercedes for $10,000 if the MSRP was $8000?
Probably.
MSRP, MSRP+dealer markup, or Saturn's fixed price doesn't say ANYTHING about
whether it's a good buy or not.
--
These pearls of wisdom are my own views and do not reflect on the opinions
of any organization or sane human being.
AngelaHarper
until I went to a Chevrolet dealer which is purported to be the biggest
in Texas, (if not the biggest, period.) The only salesperson I could
find to talk to was a used car salesman (I was shopping for a NEW car)
and he automatically assumed I was underaged (I'm 22) and a waste of
time. He wouldn't even show me any cars until he ran a credit check on
me. When he did, he took me out and showed me a line of about six
pre-owned cars and told me to pick one. I wandered among them and eyed a
'95 Pontiac. When I asked him the price, he couldn't tell me. Test
drive? Let him run the financing through first. That was going to take
a couple of days....When I started moseying towards the door, he just
about fell all over himself running after me and telling me in broken
English how great my credit was...I don't know; I've bought a couple of
cars from bigger dealerships before, and I've never gotten a run around
like that. They always showed me the car, let me drive it, told me the
price and what they could try to do with my trade in, and then we started
on paperwork. The last car I bought, I bought late in the evening on a
Saturday and they late me take it home for the weekend while they waited
for the financing details to come back from GMAC so I could decide if I
really liked it.
-B.DICKMAN
a huge auto sales dealership in central NJ that told of a mother and
daughter who went in to look at cars. The salescreep invited them into
a room to talk. They weren't giving him positive vibes, so he went
out, and kept the door locked, telling them they could leave when they
agreed to buy. They called the police from the desk phone, and
when the cops rolled up, the good times began. Hey, you can't make
this stuff up.
Ben Dickman
Robert W Current
for me in 1993 when I wanted a new Jeep.
I lived in the Los Ang. Area, and I knew EXACTLY what I wanted, so after
a few test drives to make sure I knew what I wanted, I got the fax
numbers for every Jeep lot in a 75 mile radius, and I wrote out a sheet
that specified the EXACT jeep I wanted, all the options I wanted, and the
colors i would buy it in, with my prefrence Then I faxed it to every
dealership adressed to teh FLEET MANAGER with a note that I would be
requesting a quote from MANY dealerships, and the lowest bid would get my
buiness.
The results? Well, out of about 30 dealerships, only half quoted at all,
and only About 7 quoted something I really wanted, but the good news was,
I had the price, in writing, from the 7 dealers, and it was for the exact
one I wanted, but the lowest price was from one that was going to do a
"factory order" for my Jeep. I ended up getting it for well under
sticker price, even after tax and licence (which were high in California,
and I had to take a 1 hour drive the day I picked it up. BUT, I never
even had to go to the dealership before that day, i never even knew where
it was, and they had all the paperwork filled out before hand and I just
had to sign it. I was on the road with my new Jeep 5 minutes after
walking on the car lot, and I knew I had exactly what I wanted, at the
best price possable.
It worked pretty well, I will do it again next time I ever buy a new car,
but I did have one other advantage, I had a pre approved car loan from a
credit union, so I didn't have to deal with anything other than the cash
price for the Jeep, and that helps a lot, because $5 or $10 more or less
a month can be confusing as heck when they are juggleing the intrest rate
and the length of the loan at the same time, especially when you are
sitting in the showroom.
If anyone tries this, I would be very interested in hearing you results.
You can write me at
cur...@plains.nodak.edu
Hope I can help someone, I hate car salesmen too... :)
Rob
Gsg900
>Now, as for auto salesmen, I solved that problem YEARS ago. I buy
>from one salesman. Period. I trust him and he trusts me. When I'm
>looking for something, I call him and he calls me when it's in.
>I look at cars on Sundays when the lots are closed. By the time I am
>ready to buy, I already know what I want.
I sold cars for a brieft bit and it taught me a few things. For one people
are buying Saturns because they don't have to deal with the b.s. this
thread has been griping about. Secondly-with such intense competition out
there-dealers will try anything...and unfortunately they are using
techniques that have become outdated in our service oriented world.
Finally, perusing the lots on the closed day (usually Sunday) is a great
tip.
IMHO-some tips. When you say you'll be back to a dealer, 9 out of 10 do
not return. They want to sell you the car. When you're ready walk in with
as much cash as readily available-sit down and tell them what YOU want.
They'll snap to. And if they don't they won't be in the business long.
Plus-find a dealer you're comfortable with. I walked out of one Saab
dealer who was offering me the car for $100 less because he was being a
condescending jerk. (I'm a young guy-dealers think they can push me
around). I drove back later to show him the car.
Extended warranties? what can you do? Even the local appliance guys are
finding out its the only way to up margin. Unless they asked about it-we
didn't push it. Thats true most places. Its SHOULD be a one time question.
Call the manufacturer if it becomes a big problem.
If you sound like a broken record about what you want it will work...but
make sure you like the service dept as well-unfortunately one of my cars
was bought as a place I will NEVER return for service.
Its a scummy business but it is going to change rapidly in the coming
years.
-Gabe
Gregory S. Youngblood
> "Gayle" == Gayle Snedecor <gs...@sat.net> writes:
> >> A free tank of gas after our Bon Voyage party at the dealership
> >> & now you know why I currently own a Saturn. &:-)
> >>
> >> Brenda '95 SW1 Blue/Black "Buffer"
> Gayle> They'll treat you just as well at any other dealership if
> Gayle> you walk in and plunk down the full manufacturers suggested
> Gayle> retail price!
>I am sure that is perfectly true. The difference is that Saturn offers
>you a retail price that is good value up front.
>For $13.5K (*all* inclusive) I got my 94 SL, delivered the next day
>with the passenger side mirror I requested. I could not find a better
>value at that time.
My father needed a nice commuter car. He paid something like 10 or
11k for his Hyundai (yes Hyundai). It's the middle car, elantra I
think. It's very much like my wifes Honda Civic (actually I think it
is better). His is loaded, power everything. And then I get a look at
those people that buy the saturns and "how proud they all are" for
buying that car, when they pay 12 to 15 for cars with just the basics.
The Hyundai is roomy enough, good driving, peppy and good handling
little car. I was quite impressed. Which is more than I can say about
when I drove other small cars. I've looked at the saturns, and my
friend test drove one. He had the same reaction (more so than I)
afterwards. It is no better than bottom of the line cheap imports.
Quite disappointing.
For comparison, my wife's old honda was a 90 civic LX, also loaded.
My personal preferences are still to go with trucks. I'd love to get a
small car with a stick though. :)
Cathi Madden
fitness club membership. Is there a connection?
hmmmmm. . .
Cathi Madden
cmma...@usa.pipeline.com
Cathi Madden
work. He had found a '92 Corolla (new at the time) with 11 miles on it and
a '91 Escort with 11,000 miles. The asking price for the Corolla was
about 12,000 -- the Escort, 9,300. He went to the Toyota salesperson,
saying, "I'm looking at an Escort down the street that is asking for 9,300.
If you can't beat that, I'll just buy the Escort. He ended up getting the
Corolla.
Cathi Madden
cmma...@usa.pipeline.com
simon
<deleted>
> I rather shop around and be able to bargain for a good deal on a good car
> (be it American, Japanese, or German) than be stuck with
> "highly-rated-by-someone" car with a humongous profit margin. There are
> at least 10 small cars in Saturn's league, and I can count at least 5 that
> measure up to its reliability and customer service records.
Just curious as to those 5 cars you count...
Simon Crawshaw
Nevin Cheung
Andy Smith <sm...@skid.ps.uci.edu> wrote:
>In 20 short hours I will take delivery of my new 1996 SL1. Yeah!
>
>The sales guy, Sam Shaw, at Saturn of Santa Ana, CA was great. Not
>pushy, not filled with BS. Sam lacks the bluster of other dealers that
>I have comde to hate. But my experience with other dealers were not as
>nice...
>
Yeah... I was looking at Saturns too, until... I found out that the SL1's
selling price was $1050 above invoice, excluding the options' markups!
Hell, I thought $500 was excessive on a $20,000 car my dad bought. A 10%
markup on a car is pathetic.
I rather shop around and be able to bargain for a good deal on a good car
(be it American, Japanese, or German) than be stuck with
"highly-rated-by-someone" car with a humongous profit margin. There are
at least 10 small cars in Saturn's league, and I can count at least 5 that
measure up to its reliability and customer service records.
$0.02.
-nev
--
Nevin Cheung________________________...@netcom.com
UC Berkeley SIMS System Administrator nev...@sims.Berkeley.EDU
UC Berkeley Open Computing Facility Staff Member nev...@ocf.Berkeley.EDU
UCB Computer Science Undergraduate Association nev...@csua.Berkeley.EDU
Jacques Mc Donough
writes:
>In article <smith.8...@skid.ps.uci.edu>,
>Andy Smith <sm...@skid.ps.uci.edu> wrote:
>>In 20 short hours I will take delivery of my new 1996 SL1. Yeah!
>>
>>The sales guy, Sam Shaw, at Saturn of Santa Ana, CA was great. Not
>>pushy, not filled with BS. Sam lacks the bluster of other dealers
that
>>I have comde to hate. But my experience with other dealers were not
as
>>nice...
>>
>
>Yeah... I was looking at Saturns too, until... I found out that the
SL1's
>selling price was $1050 above invoice, excluding the options' markups!
>Hell, I thought $500 was excessive on a $20,000 car my dad bought. A
10%
>markup on a car is pathetic.
>
>I rather shop around and be able to bargain for a good deal on a good
car
>(be it American, Japanese, or German) than be stuck with
>"highly-rated-by-someone" car with a humongous profit margin. There
are
>at least 10 small cars in Saturn's league, and I can count at least 5
that
>measure up to its reliability and customer service records.
>
>$0.02.
>
I find these 2 cents to be worth full face value based on my own
experiences.One price selling is a new gimmick,excuse me,GIMMICK.
Jacques(thank you, Nev)
>-nev
>--
>Nevin
Cheung________________________...@netcom.co
D.Black
>Yeah... I was looking at Saturns too, until... I found out that the SL1's
>selling price was $1050 above invoice, excluding the options' markups!
>Hell, I thought $500 was excessive on a $20,000 car my dad bought. A 10%
>markup on a car is pathetic.
>
In my opinion, dealer profit on a car is only ONE of the things that
needs to be considered. How about resale value as another, or total
bottom line cost of the car compared to the competition? An example may
illustrate my point:
Which car would you choose (assume both are equal in quality and
desirabilty to the buyer, and assume you will probably trade/sell in
three years): Car A, out the door price $18,000, dealer
profit $2000, value 3 years from now $13,000. Car B, out the door price
$16,500, dealer profit $500, value in 3 years $9,000. MSRP on both cars
was $18,000. Many people would not even consider Car A because of the
high dealer profit. But depreciation on car A is $5,000 and depreciation
on car B is $7,500. With this example, you had to pay an extra $1,500 up
front to gain that extra $2,500 in 3 years. So Car A would probably make
sense to buy, even with that outrageous profit.
If you are going to keep the car forever, then used car value doesn't
matter, only bottom line original cost and cost of upkeep. So, in this
case car B would be best.
There are lots of real world examples of cars in the Car A/Car B
depreciation types. Car A: Saturn, Honda, many Toyotas, sport utility
vehicles. Car B: Taurus, Lumina, and most vehicles commonly sold for
rental fleet use. (With the resulting market glut caused by sales of
used rentals being a main cause of low market value, in my opinion).
And why be fixated on profit at the dealer level? What about profit to
the manufacturer? I'm sure that this varies a lot also. But it isn't
published for the world to see. If you knew that a manufacturer made
a profit of $3,000 on a car, would you reject it over another car where the
manufacturer was losing money, even if they cost you the same amount?
Why is profit considered evil? It is what makes the country run and is
what pays your salary (if you work for private business).
Having said all that, I do think that you should negotiate the best deal
possible on a given vehicle. I'm just saying that there are more factors
to consider than profit at the dealer level and maybe buyers should look
at all the factors before making a decision.
Dale Black
(not a Saturn owner, not a dealer, salesman, etc.)
Nevin Cheung
>Nevin Cheung wrote:
><deleted>
>> I rather shop around and be able to bargain for a good deal on a good car
>> (be it American, Japanese, or German) than be stuck with
>> "highly-rated-by-someone" car with a humongous profit margin. There are
>> at least 10 small cars in Saturn's league, and I can count at least 5 that
>> measure up to its reliability and customer service records.
>
Hrm. Neon, Civic, Corolla, Prizm, Sentra. Not in any particular order.
Probably should add the Mirage, Protege, and maybe even Golf, too. Cars
such as the Elantra, the Kia whatchamecallit, and the Escort better be
left off that list.
Look, I love Saturns, too. I test drove one and _almost_ fell in love
with a 95 SL2. If Saturn's MSRP is about 5% above the invoice, I think I
would run and buy one, too. The gripes that I had about that car are the
common things people point out -- the buzzy engine noise problem, etc.
Note that the car that I drive now that I got in 1991 (a Dodge Spirit V6)
was purchased at invoice price, and still got a $1500 rebate on top of
that. (So, all the dealer got was the 2% holdback...) _*That*_'s a good
deal. And, the car is still humming at 65K miles without any real
problems...
I know that people now live and die by the Saturns -- there's like a cult
following. GM *loves* that. I went back to my old Consumer Guides from
1991, and I see that the Saturn wasn't marked up as much as it is now.
GM and its dealers are taking advantage of you now, folks. And people
are willingly being GM's prey to up its revenues.
Now, why can't cars be sold at a reasonable markup (like 3-5%) the Saturn
way? Lots of other industries have slim profit margins now. Why can't
car dealerships?
-nev
--
Nevin Cheung________________________...@netcom.com