'96 lifters tapping
TONY CHAMBERS
My '96 Miata with 63,000 miles has developed a disturbing problem. The valve
lifters make a LOT of noise. Not all the time, but mostly it seems when cold
or just warming up. Someone told me this is a common problem on these. Is
there a factory recall on this common problem? Or is there something I can
do to cure the problem? Does anyone recommend any chemical oil additive to
fix the problem?
Thanks in advance for your replies offline at tony.c...@erols.com
Tony C
--
"Every need 'got an ego to feed"
Bob Marley
Dan Lam
Herebelow are quotes from Mazda bulltins:
---------- Quote ----------
Mazda Tips October, 1998
VIN: JM1NB3532T0705037 Category: B Piston Engine
Repair information: Reference #: 940
Type Desc.: Bulletin
Svc bulletin #: B-005/95
Model All Year
1986-1996
Exc. RX-7 & Millenia S
HLA Noise after long storage
A primary cause of HLA noise is the result of oil drain back to the
crankcase during long periods of storage. Category B of the applicable
workshop manual contains diagnostic information to determine if the
HLA noise is normal or requires replacement. The repair procedure text
should be followed to determine if the HLA requires replacement. These
instructions will be added to the 1996 workshop manual.
Before performing the HLA inspection and replacement, verify the noise
is not the result of carbon accumulation in the combustion chamber.
1. Check engine oil and replenish if necessary.
Note: If the oil is dirty, replace the oil. Inform the customer
of the need to change oil and that it is not covered by normal vehicle
warranty.
2. Run the engine to normal operating temperature.
3. Increase the idle to 2,000 - 3,000 RPM and maintain this speed
until HLA noise stops or 20 minutes.
NOTE: Do not exceed 20 minutes. Currently the workshop manual states
10 minutes, this will be revised in the 1996 workshop manual. Watch
the engine temperature during this operation. If the temperature
exceeds normal range, reduce the engine speed to idle until the
temperature returns to normal.
If the above method does not eliminate the HLA noise, the following
may be the cause of the noise:
1. Low oil pressure due to clogged oil pump strainer
2. Oil pump internal problem.
3. faulty HLA
To locate a noisy HLA use the following procedures.
1. A .015 feeler gauge can be used to inspect HLA condition. Attempt
to insert the feeler gauge between the HLA and valve. If the HLA is
good, the feeler gauge will not fit between the cam and the HLA. If
the HLA is collapsed, the feeler gauge will fit between the cam and
HLA. Note: (929 only): During disassembly, when removing the
camshafts, wear and light scoring may be present at the third cam
journal. This is not a concern and does not result in noise. It is not
necessary to replace components for this concern.
2. After disassembly, the individual HLAs can be inspected by
squeezing each one between your fingers to determine if it collapses.
If it does move, it is defective, if not, it [original wording cut off
here]
3. For HLAs that fit into rocker arms, with the HLA removed, inspect
the tip of the HLA that contacts the valve. If the HLA is good, an
"hour glass" wear pattern will appear on the top. If the HLA is
collapsed, the HLA tip will have a round peened appearance or an "X"
pattern from tapping on the top of the valve stem.
4. With the HLA removed from the rocker arm, measure the HLA length.
If it is less than 20.5 mm k, it should be replaced.
These are tips which can be utilized during HLA inspection, use them
as guidelines when inspecting HLA noise concerns. Do NOT replace
complete sets of HLAS to cure one noisy HLA.
See service bulletin B-005/95 for illustrations and additional
information.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miata Technical Service Bulletin
Category Applicable Subject Bulletin
No.004/93
Model(s)
Issued
6/3/93
B Listed Below Engine noise due to carbon Revised
accumulation
Applicable Models/Vins
1990 - 93 Protege
1992 - 93 MX-3 (V-6)
1990 - 93 MX-5
1989 - 93 B2600
1989 - 93 MPV (4 cyl.)
Description
If engine noise is heard on initial start-up and decreases as the
vehicle achieves operating temperature, carbon may have
accumulated in the combustion chamber and on the piston tops.
NOTE: Additives in some fuels and continuous "short trips" may
contribute to carbon accumulation.
The noise that occurs is similar to Hydraulic Lash Adjusters
(HLA) noise. However, unlike HLA, the noise will peak and
decrease as the engine RMP increases. Before beginning HLA
diagnostics or replacement, perform the carbon cleaning process
described in this bulletin.
Vehicles exhibiting the above symptoms should be repaired
according to the instructions below. Inform the customer that the
noise does not contribute to engine deterioration and the use of
gas treatment to prevent carbon accumulation will prevent
reoccurrence of the noise.
Repair Information
Carbon accumulation can be removed using Mazda Top Engine Cleaner
(P/N 0000 77 2025) which is available through your parts
department. The cleaner should be induced through a throttle body
vacuum port with the vehicle idling. Diagrams are attached to
assist you in locating the correct port.
Carefully read and follow the instructions that come with the
cleaner. Recommended induction procedures are as follows:
1. Operate engine to normal operating temperature then turn
engine off.
2. To inject the cleaner into the engine, use the canister
purge vacuum port. This will allow even distribution of the
cleaner. Refer to pages 3 of 10 through 9 of 10 for the
vacuum port locations.
CAUTION: The Mazda Top Engine Cleaner must be fed into
the engine through the correct vacuum line and at a
feed rate not less than 1.5 minutes per half container
with an orifice (P/N E5B6 13 986) in the feeding hose.
A faster feed rate may result in liquid accumulation in
a cylinder resulting in hydraulic lock-up and engine
damage.
CAUTION:
* Do not use the pcv hose. Engine damage may occur
due to excessive cleaner entering the engine.
* Do not use a vehicle vacuum hose. Supply your own
feeding tube and install orifice (P/N E5B613 986).
* Attach a pair of locking pliers (Vise grips) to
the feeding tube to prevent suction while the
engine is cranking.
3. Place the other end of the hose in the container of top
engine cleaner.
4. Restart engine.
WARNING: An excessive amount of exhaust smoke will be produced in the
next
procedure. Use an exhaust hose to vent the smoke.
5. Allow idle to stabilize. Then feed the cleaner into the
engine by releasing the pliers while idling up and down
(between 1500 - 3000 rpm) a few times until 1/2 of the
cleaner is used. At this point, let the idle drop. The
engine should stall. If it doesn't, turn engine off.
6. Let the vehicle sit for at least one hour or up to 24 hours.
The chemical's cleaning ability increases the longer it is
allowed to saturate the carbon.
7. To flush the remaining carbon from the engine, repeat steps
2 to 5 using the remaining 1/2 of the cleaner. DO NOT let
the engine stall. Increase the idle up and down between
1500-2000 rpm.
8. Remove your feeding tube and reconnect the original line.
9. Take the vehicle on a 3 or 4 mile performance (i.e. full RPM
range) test drive to remove any remaining cleaner or carbon.
NOTE: After verifying the noise has been eliminated, change the
oil, oil filter and raise the engine RPM several times to
circulate new oil throughout the engine.
As a preventative measure, use a known gas treatment additive to
prevent repeat carbon accumulation (example: Chevron Techron).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is from the website:
URL: http://www.ergonite.demon.co.uk/ergonite/probefaq.htm
[Ford Probe, Mazda 626 & MX6 FAQ]
[Ford Probe, Mazda 626 & MX6 FAQ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[A) Problem & Maintenance areas]
HLAs - Hydraulic Lash Adjusters, Lifters
Pre-Emptive - Regular 3k-mile oil/filter changes, preferably with
synthetic.
Problem
HLA noise can affect most Mazda engines (Miata/MX5 I4, V6) at
any time. The noise is a tap-tap due to non zero-lash between
cam lobe & HLA.
Cause
If HLAs are subject to numerous cold stop-start driving or
garage-to-drive short trips they may not pump-up with oil
properly. This gives the tell-tale tick-tick/tap-tap from an
otherwise super-silent V6. More regular oil changes help. If
the sound stays after 20 mins for several consecutive days then
the cause is one or more collapsed HLAs/lifters due to
dirt/varnish.
If left long enough collapsed lifter(s) will eventually wear
through cam lobe hardening, making cam-lobes round, thus
losing engine power. Mazda HLAs are small compared to other
manufacturers and can take up to 20 minutes to pump up
properly.
Solutions
Change oil regularly, every 3k-miles and indeed use a
synthetic oil at the same 3k-miles if possible - extending
drain intervals is not a good idea in tackling a problem of
noise caused by dirt/varnish/sludge build-up. Use of dealer
oil-filters is strongly advised regarding drainback valve,
bypass pressure valve and warranty concerns (Roebuck Mazda
filters are 4.25$US).
A synthetic is known to sludge far less and has better
detergents. Mobil1 seems to be the perennial favourite
regarding keeping things clean, however it can be £30/48$US
for 4 litres vs as little as 12$US in the USA. A cheaper UK
alternative is Castrol Syntec/Magnatec at £17 for 4.54/5.54
litres, however it has a high ash figure of 1.2% (deposits on
valves, sludge) (Mobil1, Amsoil etc are <<0.5%).
The benefit of using a synthetic for some time, is that a
flush may be used 10 mins prior to changing oil without risk
of freeing up sludge and instead effectively removes carbon &
varnish deposits.
The procedure for using a flush is often not followed, which
is why techs are often reluctant to use them unless an owner
will come back for oil changes. Neglecting several oil changes
shortly after a flush is a good way of dumping sludge/carbon
in every HLA. The procedure is also useful prior to putting
new HLAs in (so they don't become clogged shortly after).
1. Run synthetic for two oil changes (does not add to
sludge/varnish & gently removes that present).
2. Run a flush 10 mins at idle before a change, and then
change oil & filter.
3. After 250 miles change the oil & filter again (filter will
be full).
4. After 500 miles, put another can of flush through 10 mins
at idle, then change the oil & filter again.
5. After 1500 miles, change oil & filter again. Repeat 1-5 if
noise remains.
An alterative stateside is a machine flush, which pumps a
large quantity of powerful cleaner through a non-running
engine. They are an extremely effective and fast solution,
with brands from Bilstein to Wynns (around 100$US).
For more information on oils see
www.mustangworks.com/articles/faqs-n-tech/oil-notes.shtml.
If a HLA were to need replacing, they are £40/60$US each so
source them from Roebuck Mazda USA (£20/30-35$US) each.
Generally this is only required with neglect. The wear area in
Mazda piston engines is generally the top-end if oil changes
are not regular and HLAs left making noise, the bottom end for
example is a split block with four 4-bolt mains on the V6.
HLA Test Procedures
In Vehicle Test:
1. Remove all spark-plugs & jack up one wheel.
2. Remove the cam covers front & rear (including VRIS casting
etc).
3. Jack up one wheel and slowly rotate the cam whilst trying
to insert a 0.15mm feeler guage between HLA & cam lobe. Slowly
rotating to avoid introducing air into the HLA (which will
falsely increase clearance). If the guage can be inserted then
the HLA is collapsed and nearing max spec of 0.18mm.
Out of Vehicle Test:
1. With a HLA in your hand, squeeze it. If it compresses the
HLA is to be replaced.
2. Any scuffing of the HLA surface or the cam lobe suggests
both must be replaced.
3. In removing any HLA, it must be put back in the place from
which it was removed (otherwise the cam-lobe to HLA interface
will be different and point-loading will occur increasing
temperatures and wear rapidly.
In any assessment of HLAs, there is the remote possibility of
aerated oil being the cause of HLA noise - from a faulty
sump-pick-up, sump-to-block gasket in the oilpan, to a faulty
oilpump. These are discussed in the Ford TSB covering the
detailed & comprehensive assessment (detailed below, p1-10) of
noise problems in notably silent engines. The 2.0s and other
I4s can suffer the same HLA problems, it is easier on these to
check HLA-to-cam clearances.
For full TSB re Noise from Carbon-Knock/HLA/Friction Gear see:
p1 p2 p3 p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 p9 p10
Sourcing filters & filter wrenches
Roebuck Mazda stock 2.5 Factory oil filter-wrenches
(4G0-14-001, 7.49$US for US filters) and Oil filters
(JEY0-14-302-9A, 4.25$US) & Drain plug aluminium crush washer
(G6Y0-14-302A, 0.78$US don't reuse old).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Ford Probe, Mazda 626 & MX6 FAQ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page services by: ErgonITe Last Upload: 31st January, 1998. V1.40a
URL: http://www.ergonite.demon.co.uk/ergonite/p_p6.htm
johnp...@yahoo.com
> My '96 Miata with 63,000 miles has developed a disturbing problem. The
valve
> lifters make a LOT of noise. Not all the time, but mostly it seems when
cold
> or just warming up. Someone told me this is a common problem on these. Is
> there a factory recall on this common problem? Or is there something I
can
> do to cure the problem? Does anyone recommend any chemical oil additive
to
> fix the problem?
This is a common problem. There is a service bulletin pertaining to this
(at least for early cars), but not a factory recall to my knowledge. The
best solution I have found is to use 5W30 Mobil 1 oil. This seems to quiet
things up a lot, until it's time for the next oil change. Give it a try --
it'll only cost you the difference between dino oil and synthetic to see if
it helps with the noise.
I'd be interested, myself, in hearing other suggestions from the group.
Regards.
Colin
For me, it happens after around 2500 miles (of hard driving =) )
I don't use synthetic BTW...
...Colin
TONY CHAMBERS <tony.c...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:8b44lg$34j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Hey there Miata experts
>
> My '96 Miata with 63,000 miles has developed a disturbing problem. The
valve
> lifters make a LOT of noise. Not all the time, but mostly it seems when
cold
> or just warming up. Someone told me this is a common problem on these. Is
> there a factory recall on this common problem? Or is there something I can
> do to cure the problem? Does anyone recommend any chemical oil additive to
> fix the problem?
>
Jim Carr
} valve lifters make a LOT of noise. Not all the time, but mostly it seems
} when cold or just warming up. Someone told me this is a common problem on
} these. Is there a factory recall on this common problem? Or is there
} something I can do to cure the problem? Does anyone recommend any chemical
} oil additive to fix the problem?
In article <01bf928a$a8173aa0$5851f7a5@ac1002885>
<johnp...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>This is a common problem. There is a service bulletin pertaining to this
>(at least for early cars), ...
Someone posted it, giving all of the usual advice. You can look it
up on miata.net and verify if it applies to a particular car.
> ... but not a factory recall to my knowledge.
There is a fine distinction here. A factory recall is only done for
items that affect either safety (viz. the airbag sensor problem on
some model cars) or emissions (viz. the recall on a friend's Mustang
Cobra that amounted to a significant power upgrade, new chip and new
induction, to fix and "emissions" problem).
A technical service bulletin (TSB) can result in free work done
under warranty, but only when the customer complains of the problem.
The HLA falls in this category, which is why the posted TSB makes
a big deal out of diagnosing it correctly and only replacing the
ones that had failed prematurely. [However, I am sure that when I
had mine done, they were all replaced with a set that met a newer
or different spec for some key dimension.]
Unfortunately, that '96 has too many miles on it to be under warranty,
but it would probably benefit from an oil change.
--
James A. Carr <j...@scri.fsu.edu> | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/ | desired to this or any address
Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | that resolves to my account
Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | for any reason at any time.
garth libre
start. Just recently I tried changing the oil after a hard run, within 5
minutes after shut off. This is hard because it is almost impossible not to
burn your forearm. Usually I let things cool for an hour or I only run the
car for about 5 minutes at idle before draining. This time I wrapped my
forearm in fabric and tape and drained the oil and removed the filter within
5 minutes. The difference was amazing: no tappet noise at all, even on cold
start up. I used the same oil, Castrol 10-30 Syntec and the same filter,
Mazda OEM, and the same interval, 3,000 miles. For the first time, my car is
lifter noise free!!!
Colin <Co...@yourmiata.com> wrote in message
news:8b5lje$cr1$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> I find the solution is to change the oil as soon as it starts.
> For me, it happens after around 2500 miles (of hard driving =) )
> I don't use synthetic BTW...
> ...Colin
>
> TONY CHAMBERS <tony.c...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:8b44lg$34j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > Hey there Miata experts
> >
> valve
> > lifters make a LOT of noise. Not all the time, but mostly it seems when
> cold
> > or just warming up. Someone told me this is a common problem on these.
Is
> > there a factory recall on this common problem? Or is there something I
can
> > do to cure the problem? Does anyone recommend any chemical oil additive
to
> > fix the problem?
> >
me
winter months. then switch to 10w30 in the summer months. That seems quite
it down alot. I use synthetic oil. And don't let anyone tell you its the oil
filters as i've tried um all.
ERIC LUCAS
sludgy oil that is causing the problem, you might want to run a can of
oil-flush through the crankcase when you change the oil. This is probably
easier than trying to change the scalding hot oil right after a hard ride.
Oh, and if you can't change the oil right away, I've found an oil thinner
like Marvel Mystery Oil helps as a temporary fix. Don't let it be your
permanent solution, tho.
Eric Lucas