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Miata Not a Sports Car

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Alan K. Young

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to Expmiata

Ok, Webster's was no help this time.

Going way back to the first half of the century, any car meeting the
'roadster' definition I posted before was properly called a 'roadster'.
Therefore, a Model T Ford with 2 doors and a rumble seat was a roadster.
A Model T "speedster" was a very cool (IMO) modified car. Most of the
bodywork was removed, maybe a 'monocle' windscreen for the driver and
that was about it. It was lightweight and therefore faster than a
standard roadster.

Nowdays, a speedster is usually a modified roadster sports car with a
lower windshield and maybe modified bodywork to lighten it (like the
Miata speedster show car, and compare James Dean's Porsche Speedster vs
a 356 Roadster).

Expmiata wrote:
>
> Um......what's the difference betweeen a Speedster and a Roadster?....besides
> the spelling <for all you smart A's who thought of responding with that bit of
> wit <g> ;-D
> Cissy
> Krikkit
> 90A Crystal White/Stripes
> Borla Catback
> Air Scoops
> CATZ XLO's
> MOOO!!
> http://members.aol.com/expmiata/index.html

Izya Yagolnitser

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Kennedy wrote:
>
> IMHO the simple answer to this conundrum is that Izya has a different
> view of a sports car from the rest of us.
[snip of good history]
> Given that they were all that was available for a significant
> period - particularly in the USA - is it any wonder that Izya mis-
> associates the term 'sports-car' solely with that type of vehicle?
> Probably not, but that is less his fault than a quirk of fate, a
> technology lag that exaggerated the gap between the performance of the
> true sports car and what was acceptable.
[another snip of good history]
> Izya is just a quirk of motoring history, his views are those of a
> missing generation - a generation that never really knew what a sports
> car was. If things go well - and from his earlier post on the original
> thread it looks like its happening already - he will learn what he has
> been missing all these years he has admired and misnamed power machines.
> Like any sport, driving a Miata is fun and exhilarating if its done
> properly - in his time, Izya will come to learn that it is that
> sensational feeling that REALLY defines a sports car.
>
> As someone here used to add to their tag line - DO NOT RESIST, YOU WILL
> BE ASSIMILATED! ;-)

I must say you are entirely correct and right about me for once. I moved
to US in 1991, and you don't really want to know what I drove before
that ;-(
I did "miss" all the cars you are talking about aside from seeing those
rust buckets in people's garages. Perhaps my definition (or perception)
is a bit distorted, but as you said "it is less my fault than a quirk of
fate"

Red Major.

Nick Horianopoulos

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Tom Barnes wrote:

> Just struck me that the 'classic' British sports cars with their
> ahh...charming... reliability was produced by the same nation that gave
> birth to the entirely reliable Hurricane and Spitfire (and the
> Rolls-Royce Merlin that powered them as well as the Mustang). So how
> could this be? Did British cars suffer from some sort of mechanical
> karmic burden accumulated during the Battle of Britain?
>
> Tom
>
> P.S. No officer, I haven't had a drop.

Yes, in the early part of this century, during rise of industrialism, the
British had invented a concept known as "planned obsolescence," wherein
manufacturers would deliberately manufacture consumer products with low
life-spans, so that they would be assured of a volume of repeat business.
Now, when you are manufacturing fighter aircraft, and the welfare of a
nation is at stake, you have no motivation to produce something that's
designed to fail.

British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
US? THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
widely.

--
Niko

Remember, a Winner is a Loser with bad memory... He forgets to quit!

http://www.concentric.net/~Greek/

If you're gonna e-mail me, you gotta rip off the "K" in "Koncentric" and
change it to "c."

Enter Name Here

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Alan K. Young wrote:
>
> Ok, Webster's was no help this time.
>
> Going way back to the first half of the century, any car meeting the
> 'roadster' definition I posted before was properly called a 'roadster'.
> Therefore, a Model T Ford with 2 doors and a rumble seat was a roadster.

Actually, you had convertibles, which had fixed windshields, and
roadsters, which had removable windshields. To get really technical,
the Miata is a convertible. A Morgan is a roadster. But that's picking
nits, and I don't really care. :^)

S&W

Patz!

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

>British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>US?
Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?

>THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>widely.

>Niko
The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence, but
American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when was
the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?
Conversely, almost ALL the cars listed on the "annual worst used cars" lists
are American. This year, about 90% of those listed under the "Losers" side
of the "Winners and Losers" list are American. Similarly, last year, 100%
of those listed under the "Worst" side of the "Best and Worst Used Cars"
list are American!
Just because certain cars are exported widely doesn't necessarily mean that
it is of high quality. It could mean that they are priced cheaper than
most. Incidentally, American cars are not exported as widely as you think.
Japanese and German cars are everywhere, however. I'm sorry for saying
this, but if you're talking about quality, alot of American cars are
pathetic when compared to their Japanese counterparts. I can understand
your patriotism, but we need a dose of reality here!

Regards,
Patz!

Simon Brown

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Nick Horianopoulos wrote in message <3574A963...@concentric.net>...


>THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>widely.
>

Surely a typo here? Japanese and German yes, but American consumer goods
with high quality?

Not on this planet anyway.

Simon

Timothy Lee

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

> Surely a typo here? Japanese and German yes, but American consumer goods
> with high quality?
>
> Not on this planet anyway.

I beg to differ. Give us *some* credit. HP calculators and printers,
Motorola cell phones, California and Oregon wines, the Netscape browser and
Lotus spreadsheet . . .

--
Timothy Lee
University of Pennsylvania BSE '91 / MBA '98
Alumnus of the United States Navy "Respect all; fear none."
http://equity.wharton.upenn.edu/~timoth31/
timo...@wharton.upenn.edu

Timothy Lee

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

> >"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
> >product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
> >US?
> Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?

Technologically advanced? Perhaps; I don't know Jaguars very well. But even
I've heard the horror stories about their reliability - or should I say lack
thereof.

Derek Hendrickson

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

And Microsoft's many products, most computers ran by dos or windows,
computers, beer, and lots of technology.

--
Derek Hendrickson
Greenville, NC 27834
97' STO 328/1500


Timothy Lee wrote in message <357536CE...@wharton.upenn.edu>...


>> Surely a typo here? Japanese and German yes, but American consumer goods
>> with high quality?
>>
>> Not on this planet anyway.
>
>I beg to differ. Give us *some* credit. HP calculators and printers,
>Motorola cell phones, California and Oregon wines, the Netscape browser and
>Lotus spreadsheet . . .
>

Kennedy

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <6l24qv$p...@world1.bellatlantic.net>, Pedro A. Vera-Perez
<pv...@bellatlantic.net> writes
>Saw the movie. The statement is 100% on the money. No real sports car like
>the one you rent :-)
>
>Well, except a pathetic Fiat I rented during my last week in Germany,
>smaller than a Geo Metro!

Oh god - NOT THE CINQUECENTO!!

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition - our chief weapon is surprise!
(Even the comfy chair is better than the Cinquecento) :-)
--
Kennedy
First a 91 - Classic Red: Registration Plate - Jill RKM
Now a 98 Limited Edition Berkeley #397 of 400 on the same plate.
(to reply replace nospam with kennedym)


Eli Troychansky

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

Timothy Lee wrote:

> Technologically advanced? Perhaps; I don't know Jaguars very well. But even
> I've heard the horror stories about their reliability - or should I say lack
> thereof.

One reason why you can buy a reasonably new (circa '90) XJ-6 for around $5000.
Once the warranty runs out you are on your own..

--
Eli Troychansky
thirdrail at erols dot com

Check out my nifty and conveniently easy to use Witty-Quote-O'Matic
(tm):

"<insert quote of choice here>"
-<insert obscure author here>

Kennedy

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
<gr...@concentric.net> writes

>
>
>British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>US? THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only

>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>widely.
>
A bit out of touch aren't you Niko - UK exports have been outstripping
Germany's for years! As fot good of quality, I think that Rolls Royce
is still the luxury car benchmark, and you'll find that the US, Germany
and Japan have yet to manufacture a supersonic airliner, just to mention
a couple of items. :-)

Kennedy

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <3574AD...@swbell.net>, Tom Barnes <tw...@swbell.net>
writes

>Just struck me that the 'classic' British sports cars with their
>ahh...charming... reliability was produced by the same nation that gave
>birth to the entirely reliable Hurricane and Spitfire (and the
>Rolls-Royce Merlin that powered them as well as the Mustang). So how
>could this be? Did British cars suffer from some sort of mechanical
>karmic burden accumulated during the Battle of Britain?
>
>Tom
>
>P.S. No officer, I haven't had a drop.

Nah, they just had Eric's namesake do the electrics! :-)

And what makes you think the Spitfire or the Hurricane were any more
reliable than the sports cars? The average flying life of a WWII
fighter pilot was about 20hrs - somewhat higher than the 2minutes of WWI
flying aces, but about the same as a Lucas starter.

Kennedy

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <6l3pp6$qv$1...@news.campus.mci.net>, Derek Hendrickson
<dhendr...@ecu.campus.mci.net> writes

>And Microsoft's many products, most computers ran by dos or windows,
>computers, beer, and lots of technology.
>
Awe come on!! We were discussing quality goods, not overbloated bug
ridden software - lets not confuse good business acumen for product
quality. As for alcoholic beverages, the only bar in all the world that
I have been unable to buy a Scotch malt whisky from was in Utah!!

Johan Eriksson

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

>But but but but but.......what about Roadster?...that's how I think of my
>Miata....fer some reason...

Supposedly the '99 is called "Mazda Roadster" in Japan (check it out
for yourself at www.mazda.co.jp, but beware - it's almost all in
Japanese ;-)) and the 90-97 model was also available as a Eunos
Roadster, again in Japan. So it's even officially a roadster! ;-)

>Krikkit
^^^^^^

I still love the name of your Roadster! :-D And tomorrow I'm going to
check out a red '90 that perhaps could be my own little Fenchurch!
:-DDDDDD Yeeeyy!

/Johan


Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

"Patz!" <ps...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>>British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>>"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>>product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>>US?

>Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?

Which is now Ford and until Ford stepped in had one of the worst
reliability records on the automotive market this side of a Yugo.

>>THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
>>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>>widely.

>>Niko
>The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence, but
>American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when was
>the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
>Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?

I'm wondering if the new Dodge Intrepid will go a long way towards
achieving that goal. I'm far from a patriotic person (no one can pick
where they are born and given the way this country has been going I'm
not sure I'm proud of it lately) but I do find that the Intrepid ES is
one of the few cars that has come along in a while that really grabbed
my attention. This is a car that *I* would consider buying. This car
also gives me thought as to why Mercedes merged.. their idea's and
record mixed with Chryco's computer power seems like a great match to
me. American designs are coming up very quickly though some still have
a long way to go.

...................
Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?


http://www.mindspring.com/~vdragon
Remove *nolamers* to e-mail.


Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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"Derek Hendrickson" <dhendr...@ecu.campus.mci.net> wrote:

>And Microsoft's many products, most computers ran by dos or windows,
>computers, beer, and lots of technology.

Hey now, I wouldn't put Microsoft on this list! After all..

<Fatal Error 69. Message lost. Please restart machine>

Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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expm...@aol.com (Expmiata) wrote:

>>
>>Roadsters are generally a 2-seat convertible. A Speedster generally
>>has a cut down windshield (less effective), smoothed out shape (or
>>canopy to cover the top ala Porsche 911 Speedster, Renault Sport
>>Spider, etc.) and higher performance than the typical Roadster

>Ya know Myk.....I knew you would have the answer...my winged friend :-D

Hey, this is one of the few that I knew! You just asked the right
question :)

Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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"Alan K. Young" <youn...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Nowdays, a speedster is usually a modified roadster sports car with a
>lower windshield and maybe modified bodywork to lighten it (like the
>Miata speedster show car, and compare James Dean's Porsche Speedster vs
>a 356 Roadster).

Correct, the '89 Porsche RS Speedster was a Cabrio with a cut down
windshield and a speedster canopy, very few options (power windows and
A/C were pretty much the list unless you special ordered) and as I
recall, the turbo's suspension. The latter might be innaccurate.

Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Enter Name Here <n...@my.homne> wrote:


>Actually, you had convertibles, which had fixed windshields, and
>roadsters, which had removable windshields. To get really technical,
>the Miata is a convertible. A Morgan is a roadster. But that's picking
>nits, and I don't really care. :^)

Does that mean I can go out and buy a Jeep Wrangler Roadster?
(ducking)

Henry Payne

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
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Patz, you asked for a REALITY CHECK in a post that offers JAGUAR as
something good, and all American cars as bad? Come on now. I love Jags,
but the darn things haven't been leading edge design wise or from a
reliability perspective. You may find this surprising, but the quality of
Jaguars has gone up noticeably in the past few years. Why the change you
may ask? Ford bought them ... thats right, Ford.

I would agree in general that American cars lag somewhat in quality behind
some others, but I would also contend that todays American cars are much
better than they were, and offer good value for the money, and the quality
gap is now small. An example, the most bang for the buck from a performace
perspective is the Camaro Z28 (& this comes from a Ford fan!). It has 320
HP & 6 speeds & is cheap! Cadillac Seville STS can go head to head with
any luxury/performance car made. My dads 91 Sable (a most average car) is
not unique in the 147,000 trouble free miles he has put on to date. The C5
Vette is a world class performance car, & is quite reliable.

You are correct in that no American car is listed in the Best category
based on reliability, and some are on the worst list, but the majority are
near the top end, call them "high average" Consumers Report in its
individual tests does have bunches of American cars it recommends to its
readers, so they must be doing something right. Also note that some other
brands inhabit the nether regions that are not made in the USA.

Henry - who loves his Japances, German, & American vehicles!
91 BRG, 77 Scirocco, 86 F-250 (w/460!)

Patz! <ps...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<6l3668$54h0$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...


> >British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
> >"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
> >product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
> >US?
> Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?
>

> >THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
> >nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
> >widely.
> >Niko
> The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence,
but
> American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when
was
> the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
> Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?

Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

Eli Troychansky <thir...@erols.SPAM> wrote:

>Timothy Lee wrote:

>> Technologically advanced? Perhaps; I don't know Jaguars very well. But even
>> I've heard the horror stories about their reliability - or should I say lack
>> thereof.

>One reason why you can buy a reasonably new (circa '90) XJ-6 for around $5000.
>Once the warranty runs out you are on your own..

Cost analysis for an XJS V12(no longer built.. wonder why)
New: about $80k
1 year old $58k
2 years old $38k
3 years old $28k
4 years old $18-20k if it's low milage
5 years old $10-12k ""
6 years old $6-12k.

Those are average actual sale prices (not advertised prices but more
in line with what they actually change hands for. Asking prices could
be as much as $5,000 more but they sat on them until they took the
lower offers). The car had very few changes over that time span and
the exception to the rule is the TRW version which was similar to
having a Saleen Mustang or a Callaway Camaro. Even then the prices
dropped like a rock.

I hope the XJ-8's fare better.

John Miller

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

Enter Name Here wrote in message <357517...@my.homne>...


>Actually, you had convertibles, which had fixed windshields, and
>roadsters, which had removable windshields. To get really technical,
>the Miata is a convertible. A Morgan is a roadster. But that's picking
>nits, and I don't really care. :^)


As long as we're picking nits . . . back in the '60s, the convertibles
were cars with tops you could raise and lower like the Miata, and
roll-up windows; the roadsters had side curtains and tops you had
to erect. Jaguar had both versions of the XK120 -- the roadster
and the drop-head coupe. (The roadster's windshield, BTW, was
fixed.)


Eli Troychansky

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

Rexven wrote:

> I don't know about the $120 an hour part. A top flight Ferrari mech
> gets about $75 an hour. A Lamborghini tech with proper credentials
> gets about $85 an hour. Jags are a good deal more common.. but finding
>
> a GOOD tech might just be worth that $120 an hour.

That's what the sign says, I don't know whether or not he actually has
any customers..

> My bad, I meant TWR, not TRW (TRW is a credit verification company..
> can we tell I was working a bit to much today?). TWR might be more
> familiar to you as Tom Walkinshaw Racing. If you haven't heard of
> them, you don't watch much in the realm of sports car racing ;)

Wasn't aware that TRW was in the car tuning business. :)

Not that I watch much in the realm of sports car racing, but I've heard
of the name.

> Considering that they buried the news that the car had a habit of
> catapulting when it debuted (much overshadowed by the C5 vette which
> just came out with its widely publicized suspension failures)... well,
>
> if anything else Ford is better at working the Media. Saw one report
> on it (CNN) and one brief newsclip but never saw it again.

What are the C5 suspension problem that you mentioned? That's news to
me..

Kennedy

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <F+DLmYAi...@kennedym.demon.co.uk>, Kennedy
<r...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
><gr...@concentric.net> writes
>>
>>
>>British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>>"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>>product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>>US? THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only

>>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>>widely.
>>
>A bit out of touch aren't you Niko - UK exports have been outstripping
>Germany's for years! As fot good of quality, I think that Rolls Royce
>is still the luxury car benchmark, and you'll find that the US, Germany
>and Japan have yet to manufacture a supersonic airliner, just to mention
>a couple of items. :-)


Hehehe - almost forgot a more personal example! Don't often find the
thread getting so far off topic on Usenet that I get a chance for some
self publicity, but here it is, and I almost missed it! :-)

Don't ever get caught in a fire Niko, because when the rescue unit
arrives with their breathing apparatus and fire suits you'll find they
need a thermal imaging camera to quickly locate you in the smoke and
save your life. That TI camera is virtually guaranteed to be "Made in
England" - over 90% of such units world-wide are.

Chances are that it will be one I designed and absolutely certain to be
one of mine if its small and light enough to clip on his safety helmet
so he can reach out and save you from being turned into kipper.

Quality British goods, made in the UK and saving lives in the US, Japan
and all over the world, because its simply the best! ;-)

--
Kennedy
(British designer of the only fire hardened, hands free, commercially available
thermal imaging camera in the world.)

MB CLK GTR

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

It seems to me that everyone has a favorite car or period when their favorite
sports cars were being built. All the standards and definitions they use and
accept are the ones that pertain to that period. The bottom line is that what
makes a sports car is largely subjective. Sure, there are a few guidelines as
to what a sports car is, but a lot is very personal--it's all up in the air.


However, if I want to look up a definition of sports car, I don't think that
Webster's is where I'd go. That's fine for laymen, but I think that it makes
more sense to try to find it in publications by and for enthusiasts. Looking
it up in a regular dictionary is like trying to rely on Consumer's Report
magazine to guide you on advice pertaining to buying a sports car. I prefer
Leon's definition, but even that is subject to personal opinions.


Personally, I think that a Miata is definitely a sports car: it's small,
light, RWD, a two seater, a great handler, and a blast to drive. So who cares
if it's not really fast. If Izya or anyone else chooses to disagree, that's
fine; we're still friends. As far as the Boxster and the Vette being superior
to the Miata in every way, well... that's a matter of opinion, too. Sure, you
could look up the performance figures, but they can't tell you how a car feels.
I never drove the current Vette, but I had a lot more fun driving all the
Miatas that I drove than the Boxster. But that's open to discussion, too.
Others won't agree. As far as the Miata having a more powerful engine,
especially one like the the VTEC Integra, well let's just wait till the Honda
SSX comes out. That should be interesting.

To some, it can't be a sports car if it doesn't have at least 1000 hp (tongue
in cheek, but you get my drift). To others, anything with more weight from
equipment that a sports car doesn't need (their point of view, not mine), such
as glass windows, a top, spare tire, heater, etc. cannot possibly be a sports
car; hence the Lotus/Caterham 7 crowd. I guess that if you grew up with sports
cars from the 60s, 50s, or even earlier, it's hard to accept that a sports car
can have AC, power windows, power steering, anything other than a fully manual
transmission, etc. But to say that any car with any such equipment cannot
possibly be a sports car is absurd.


Is a current 911 a sports car? I certainly think so. Can't be, some say, it's
a 2+2, it has power steering, AC, power everything else for that matter, and an
automatic option. So what? Times change. But if someone else doesn't think
it's a sports car, they can think whatever they want. Like I said, it's a
personal thing. If anyone wants to argue that an F355 F1 is not a sports car
due to its power steering and semi-automatic transmission, they can go right
ahead. I don't have to agree with them, but I also don't feel that I have to
post a million messages saying how offended I am by that sacrilegious
statement.


Personally, I think that a new Vette is a sports car, even though I wish it
weighed about 400 lb less, and I think it's probably also a great grand tourer.
I also think that it works great with an automatic transmission due to its
abundance of torque (let's burn him at the stake and tar and feather him right
now ;-). I'd never want one in a Miata, though, it needs a manual tranny to
get the engine in its powerband. It's also a major blast to shift (one of the
best shifting trannies in the world), heel-and-toe downshift, etc.


I think that with today's technology, a car can be a lot more practical, have
more amenities, and still run rings around cars from the old days. It can also
be more fun to drive without scaring you half to death in the process. That
being the case, why not put AC, power steering, ABS, etc. in sports cars?


At one point, the best steering I had ever experienced in a car was the manual
one in a 1983 944. I then test drove a 1987 924S (mechanically almost
identical) and it reminded me of how incredible the steering was. Then after I
got home, I realized that since Porsche made power steering standard around 85,
the 924S I drove must've had it. I then remembered backing it out and putting
it back into a tight parking spot, which required far less steering effort than
I was used to. But in normal driving, you wouldn't even know the power
assistance was there. It was every bit as good as the manual steering I was
used to, only better for parking. Mazda could learn a thing or two here.


Now, to answer a couple of points made earlier: Although a lot of cars sold in
the US have electronic speed controllers, I've seen cars without them reach the
same speed in the top two gears--sometimes, less in top gear. That's because
the top gear of those cars is highly overdriven just to satisfy the feds'
mileage tests. When the speeds are exactly the same without electronic
assistance, it's just a coincidence. Usually, it's less in top gear.


As for Cissy's question, that's kinda like the sports car thing--it's pretty
subjective. A roadster used to be defined as a convertible without side glass
windows. They had side curtains instead. I think that it's pretty outdated
among today's cars. As such, it only applies to 7's, Morgans, Cobra replicas,
etc.; mainly cars originating yesteryear. But all the manufacturers of the
Miata and its competitors call their cars roadsters. Once again, times change,
and I think that some of these definitions should change, too. They're all
subject to different opinions.


I think that Speedster is a made up term used mainly for marketing purposes.
The original Porsche Speedster had a low top and side curtains, like Rexven Myk
said. It was actually a cheaper stripped model, but I think that the term
doesn't necessarily have a generic definition. AFAIK it's just Porsche's own
jargon. The one thing that isn't a matter of opinion is that Cissy's a total
knockout. :-D


Miguel


Leon van Dommelen

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

"Derek Hendrickson" <dhendr...@ecu.campus.mci.net> wrote
about "American consumer goods with high quality":

>And Microsoft's many products,

MICROSOFT???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You must only count
the high version numbers? :)

> most computers ran by dos or windows,

Computer longevity does not depend on the operating system.
No need to have computers break down anyway; they become
obsolete in a couple of years automatically.

>computers, beer,

To think that mass produced American beer is quality leaves
me speechless. :) Maybe you are thinking of the expensive
stuff?

> and lots of technology.

No problem here.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen I am not responsible for what I say
domm...@zmiata.net-->remove z! White 1996 PEP Sebring Miata: Bozo
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen See my list of goodies

Rexven

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Eli Troychansky <thir...@erols.SPAM> wrote:

>Rexven wrote:
>> Cost analysis for an XJS V12(no longer built.. wonder why)
>> New: about $80k
>> 1 year old $58k
>> 2 years old $38k
>> 3 years old $28k
>> 4 years old $18-20k if it's low milage
>> 5 years old $10-12k ""
>> 6 years old $6-12k.

>The depreciation on the (older) Jags really is quite amazing. Imagine
>buying a $80k car and having it lose 50% of its value within 2 years.
>Scary shit. Conversely, a Jag mechanic in the neighborhood charges
>around $120 per hour..

I don't know about the $120 an hour part. A top flight Ferrari mech
gets about $75 an hour. A Lamborghini tech with proper credentials
gets about $85 an hour. Jags are a good deal more common.. but finding
a GOOD tech might just be worth that $120 an hour.

>> Those are average actual sale prices (not advertised prices but more


>> in line with what they actually change hands for. Asking prices could
>> be as much as $5,000 more but they sat on them until they took the
>> lower offers). The car had very few changes over that time span and
>> the exception to the rule is the TRW version which was similar to
>> having a Saleen Mustang or a Callaway Camaro. Even then the prices
>> dropped like a rock.

>Haven't heard of the TRW, what was that about? Was it tuner- or
>factory-produced?


My bad, I meant TWR, not TRW (TRW is a credit verification company..
can we tell I was working a bit to much today?). TWR might be more
familiar to you as Tom Walkinshaw Racing. If you haven't heard of
them, you don't watch much in the realm of sports car racing ;)

>> I hope the XJ-8's fare better.
>I don't think things will get any easier until the new Jaguars get some
>good press reliability-wise..


Considering that they buried the news that the car had a habit of
catapulting when it debuted (much overshadowed by the C5 vette which
just came out with its widely publicized suspension failures)... well,
if anything else Ford is better at working the Media. Saw one report
on it (CNN) and one brief newsclip but never saw it again.

Rexven

unread,
Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Eli Troychansky <thir...@erols.SPAM> wrote:

>Rexven wrote:
>> I don't know about the $120 an hour part. A top flight Ferrari mech
>> gets about $75 an hour. A Lamborghini tech with proper credentials
>> gets about $85 an hour. Jags are a good deal more common.. but finding
>> a GOOD tech might just be worth that $120 an hour.

>That's what the sign says, I don't know whether or not he actually has
>any customers..

The best Jag place I have found is Crown Jaguar Ferrari. They charge
$57-65 an hour for Jaguar service ($75 an hour for Ferrari). They are
considered expensive in the area. Then again, $120 an hour might scare
away the rabble that can't afford the car in the first place.

>> My bad, I meant TWR, not TRW (TRW is a credit verification company..
>> can we tell I was working a bit to much today?). TWR might be more
>> familiar to you as Tom Walkinshaw Racing. If you haven't heard of
>> them, you don't watch much in the realm of sports car racing ;)

>Wasn't aware that TRW was in the car tuning business. :)
>Not that I watch much in the realm of sports car racing, but I've heard
>of the name.

TWR does a lot of things for a lot of people. They build/tune racing
cars. They do development for automakers. They campaign their own
racing equipment and supply others. They test items and do custom
fabrication. Pretty much one of those magical "if you need it done go
here" places. I think they are the ones that built the Jaguar XJR
racing cars or had a serious hand in the project.

>> Considering that they buried the news that the car had a habit of
>> catapulting when it debuted (much overshadowed by the C5 vette which
>> just came out with its widely publicized suspension failures)... well,
>> if anything else Ford is better at working the Media. Saw one report
>> on it (CNN) and one brief newsclip but never saw it again.

>What are the C5 suspension problem that you mentioned? That's news to
>me..

The C5 had some sort of suspension problem in the rear where a pin or
similar wasn't properly constructed and could result in failure
leaving the vehicle spinning all over the place. They came out and
actually towed the vehicles from the owners houses rather than risk
letting them drive it back. The Jaguar, on the other hand, had a
little problem of the front part of the drive shaft seperating and
turning into a catapult below the car. This was very quickly and very
quietly remedied. I wish I had more details on it but the story was
buried very fast.

Rexven

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Tom Barnes <tw...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Kennedy wrote:
>I forgot about the short combat life of WWII aircraft. Thess days we
>have to design for a 20+ year operational lifetime, and its not unusual
>for combat aircraft to be in service longer than that. (Current plans
>call for the last operational B-52's to be over FIFTY years old at
>retirement!)

And yet they are flown every day.. Talk about mechanics working
overtime!

>BTW, the Boeing 2707 SST that was cancelled would have flown higher,
>faster and farther than Concorde, but of course that was only a paper
>airplane. Considering the awful safety record of the Tu-144, Concorde
>is still the only successful SST ever built.

America frowned on that sort of thing. They won't let anything fly
around super sonic speeds and the airlines are having a nightmare on
prices anyhow. There is no incentive to purchase such an aircraft with
nearly a hundred brand new airliners sitting mothballed in BFE. They
are still building to fulfill orders that no longer exist.. Go figure?


>Tom
>(yes, I work for Boeing)
What part? The guys that did all of my fabrication work on the MR2
worked in the machine shop and one in propulsion design. :)

BTW, anyone want to buy some airliners? We have 14 DC-9-30's on lease
to TWA and 6 B-727-200's (ex-Pan Am) on disassembly. I think there are
even some new hush-kits installed. :)

Leon van Dommelen

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
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mbcl...@aol.com (MB CLK GTR) wrote:

Actually, a language is a living thing. If general usage of
the term "Sports Car" would include a Miata, MGB, whatever
among them, then they *are* Sports Cars". The cited articles
in car magazines all seem to refer to the Miata as a sports car,
so this does seem to be standard usage of the term.

If essentially everybody refers to American muscle
cars as sports cars, then they too are sports cars,
regardless of what was understood to be a sports car in the
past. Some dictionaries apparently have panels of people
to figure oout what the current meaning of various terns
is.

And like you say, what is the picture perfect formal definition
of sportcar (roadster, speedster, ...), has little to do with
what *I* choose to call a sports car anyway.

>The one thing that isn't a matter of opinion is that Cissy's a total
>knockout. :-D

No argument here. :)

Doug Hagerman

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Beer? American beer? You must be kidding...

Derek Hendrickson <dhendr...@ecu.campus.mci.net> wrote in article
<6l3pp6$qv$1...@news.campus.mci.net>...


> And Microsoft's many products, most computers ran by dos or windows,
> computers, beer, and lots of technology.
>

> --
> Derek Hendrickson
> Greenville, NC 27834
> 97' STO 328/1500
>
>
> Timothy Lee wrote in message <357536CE...@wharton.upenn.edu>...

> >> Surely a typo here? Japanese and German yes, but American consumer
goods

Sonny

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

MB CLK GTR wrote in message
<199806040028...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>yada, yada, yada, SNIP

>The one thing that isn't a matter of opinion is that Cissy's a total
>knockout.

ABSITIVELY, POSOLUTELY!!! :-p.....
(ok, ok -- I'm drooling. But what's a dog to do?)

--
Later...
Sonny & "Baby" (STO #679)
Team E.R. (http://www.quicklink.com/~sonny)
(sonn...@Bigfoot.com - remove "2" when responding)

Ancient Earthling

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Can ANYBODY tell us what all this has to do with this NewsGroup? MIATA!!
There are lots of areas for this. NOT HERE! please?

>
>"Patz!" <ps...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>>>British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>>>"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>>>product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>>>US?

>>Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?
>

>Which is now Ford and until Ford stepped in had one of the worst
>reliability records on the automotive market this side of a Yugo.
>

>>>THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
>>>nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>>>widely.

>>>Niko
>>The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence, but
>>American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when was
>>the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
>>Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?
>

>I'm wondering if the new Dodge Intrepid will go a long way towards
>achieving that goal. I'm far from a patriotic person (no one can pick
>where they are born and given the way this country has been going I'm
>not sure I'm proud of it lately) but I do find that the Intrepid ES is
>one of the few cars that has come along in a while that really grabbed
>my attention. This is a car that *I* would consider buying. This car
>also gives me thought as to why Mercedes merged.. their idea's and
>record mixed with Chryco's computer power seems like a great match to
>me. American designs are coming up very quickly though some still have
>a long way to go.
>
>
>

Stephen A. Mills

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

In article <01bd8fbf$6ca4b120$1718...@hagermanu2000.shr.dec.com>,

Doug Hagerman <douglas....@digital.com> wrote:
>Beer? American beer? You must be kidding...
>

Absolutely not. The US has experienced such a rebirth of the microbrew in the
last 10 years that I almost never drink an import. There are so many great
small American breweries it's bordering on the ridiculous.

-Steve

Pedro A. Vera-Perez

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Anybody remember the Frank & Troise cartoon with the Porsche shop?

Porsche 356 coupe, up in the lift. Sign in the wall:
Work Rates:
Porsche: $55/hr
Porscha:$85/hr

Go figure :-0
(I had to makre up the figures, but the joke is the same)
--
Pedro & Esmeralda
1999 Emerald Green TP
Team MCA
Team Air Horns
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/6145

Pedro A. Vera-Perez

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Kennedy

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

In article <01bd8f2b$4a79bda0$ce45...@hrp4017.dukepower.com>, Henry
Payne <HPa...@dpcmail.dukepower.com> writes

>Patz, you asked for a REALITY CHECK in a post that offers JAGUAR as
>something good, and all American cars as bad? Come on now. I love Jags,
>but the darn things haven't been leading edge design wise or from a
>reliability perspective. You may find this surprising, but the quality of
>Jaguars has gone up noticeably in the past few years. Why the change you
>may ask? Ford bought them ... thats right, Ford.

Interesting that prior to Ford buying Jaguar it was Ford cars that had
the worse reputation over here.

Personally, living in the heart of Ford UK country, I would never be
seen dead owning one - but that's certainly influenced by most of my
neighbours working at their R&D plant and getting stupid money deals on
new cars every 6 months - which they can sell to a local dealer after
only a year at a profit! Ford almost discontinued their best selling
hot hatch here a couple of years ago when they discovered that more than
90% (!) of them were being sold to company employees at 0% profit.

Eli Troychansky

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Pedro A. Vera-Perez wrote:

> Anybody remember the Frank & Troise cartoon with the Porsche shop?
>
> Porsche 356 coupe, up in the lift. Sign in the wall:
> Work Rates:
> Porsche: $55/hr
> Porscha:$85/hr
>
> Go figure :-0
> (I had to makre up the figures, but the joke is the same)

I remember it, and it's still funny..

Rexven

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Kennedy <r...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Hehehe - almost forgot a more personal example! Don't often find the
>thread getting so far off topic on Usenet that I get a chance for some
>self publicity, but here it is, and I almost missed it! :-)

>Don't ever get caught in a fire Niko, because when the rescue unit
>arrives with their breathing apparatus and fire suits you'll find they
>need a thermal imaging camera to quickly locate you in the smoke and
>save your life. That TI camera is virtually guaranteed to be "Made in
>England" - over 90% of such units world-wide are.

>Chances are that it will be one I designed and absolutely certain to be
>one of mine if its small and light enough to clip on his safety helmet
>so he can reach out and save you from being turned into kipper.
>Quality British goods, made in the UK and saving lives in the US, Japan
>and all over the world, because its simply the best! ;-)

I've seen a few articles and shows dealing with this and other tech.
I'm glad to know someone who spends their life designing it. Hopefully
I will never have the need for such equipment but thank you for
working on it! A lot of fire equipment, however, is designed/built in
the US. If you want some of the best firefighting gear in the world
you have only to go to the airports.. too bad those things won't fit
on the street.. I think it was Jaguar (England, but may not be related
to the automaker) that has the best unit at the moment. That thing
accelerates and handles like a sports car, has every gadget in the
book, looks like a lunar rover and is realatively inexpensive!

Rexven

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

"Pedro A. Vera-Perez" <pv...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>Anybody remember the Frank & Troise cartoon with the Porsche shop?

>Porsche 356 coupe, up in the lift. Sign in the wall:
>Work Rates:
>Porsche: $55/hr
>Porscha:$85/hr

They had a poster at the old Yamaha shop where I took my YZ's..

If it's broke $10hr
If it's broke and you think you know what it is $15hr
If it's broke and you know what it is $25hr
If it's broke and you tried to fix it $50hr
If it's broke and you tried to fix it but made it worse $100hr

It was something pretty close to that. I wanted the thing for my
detailing shop.. Anyone finds it give me a call!

...................
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nNice doggie!" until you can find a rock...

Nick Horianopoulos

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Jun 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/4/98
to

Patz! wrote:

> >British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
> >"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
> >product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
> >US?
> Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?

Oh, CLEARLY, Jaguar comes to mind when I think of "technologically advanced,
reliable systems." Please! For years on end, Jaguar was regarded as the Great
Turd of the automotive industry, until Ford bought it out, and lots of
engineering expertise was devoted to making these vehicles into roadworthy
transportation. Now, Jaguar is a far better car than it once was -- but that
doesn't reflect that any sizable number of British consumer products are widely
distributed, or even liked in Great Britain. So, you though of Jaguar... that's
ONE. I could immediately list at least twenty US firms that manufacture
products of the highest quality, and a like number of Japanese and German
firms.

> >THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
> >nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
> >widely.
> >Niko
> The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence, but
> American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when was
> the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
> Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?

> Conversely, almost ALL the cars listed on the "annual worst used cars" lists
> are American. This year, about 90% of those listed under the "Losers" side
> of the "Winners and Losers" list are American. Similarly, last year, 100%
> of those listed under the "Worst" side of the "Best and Worst Used Cars"
> list are American!
> Just because certain cars are exported widely doesn't necessarily mean that
> it is of high quality. It could mean that they are priced cheaper than
> most. Incidentally, American cars are not exported as widely as you think.
> Japanese and German cars are everywhere, however. I'm sorry for saying
> this, but if you're talking about quality, alot of American cars are
> pathetic when compared to their Japanese counterparts. I can understand
> your patriotism, but we need a dose of reality here!
>
> Regards,
> Patz!

A dose of reality? Here's a dose: The Buick Regal was chief in quality in 1994
(I believe that it was a J.D. POwer & Associates study), and Buick ROUTINELY
scores high on quality control. I owned a Chevy Tahoe, and it was built as
solidly and competently as any Mercedes Benz I've ever seen. Wonder why Light
Truck sales finally have outpaced passenger car sales? One of the reasons is
because the American auto manufacturers tend to build them better than they
build their passenger cars, because they are making so much more money on each
truck they sell. American cars are INDEED widely distributed, all over the
planet. I've owned many Japanese cars, and both of my passenger vehicles are
now of Japanese manufacture -- but I wish the truck I was driving was the Ford
F-250 I sprayed a bedliner in today, or the 1999 Chevy. Why? My Toyota Tacoma
is a tinny piece of shit that will surely kill me if I should run into an
errant small bug. It is underpowered, undersized, and, for the money, short on
features.

In a recent Car and Driver test, the Oldsmobile Intrigue scored higher than the
Toyota Camry in many areas, including quality. Many, many cars, and consumer
products made in this country, are without peer anywhere else in the world.

Do me a favor: don't accuse me of allowing mindless patriotism to get in the
way of logic and reality.
--
Niko

Remember, a Winner is a Loser with bad memory... He forgets to quit!

http://www.concentric.net/~Greek/

If you're gonna e-mail me, you gotta rip off the "K" in "Koncentric" and change
it to "c."

Nick Horianopoulos

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Jun 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/5/98
to

Kennedy wrote:

> In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
> >
> >

> >British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
> >"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
> >product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the

> >US? THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only


> >nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
> >widely.
> >

> A bit out of touch aren't you Niko -

No I'm not.


> UK exports have been outstripping
> Germany's for years!

Funny... I haven't seen a new British car, airliner, computer, telephone, or
refrigerator in years... or ever, for that matter. Germany, however, makes
great cars, razors, coffee makers, telephone equipment, and in a consortium,
great airliners. fighter aircraft, and superb helicopters.

> As fot good of quality, I think that Rolls Royce
> is still the luxury car benchmark,

I doubt that it exceeds Mercedes, Lexus, or Acura in quality -- and the most
expensive of these makes are but a tiny fraction of the cheapest Rolls.

> and you'll find that the US, Germany
> and Japan have yet to manufacture a supersonic airliner, just to mention
> a couple of items. :-)

> --
> Kennedy
> First a 91 - Classic Red: Registration Plate - Jill RKM
> Now a 98 Limited Edition Berkeley #397 of 400 on the same plate.
> (to reply replace nospam with kennedym)

A supersonic airliner? Who cares? Now, the United States is producing a
HYPERSONIC airliner (the National Space Plane project) -- and you can be
sure that the 30 minute US - Tokyo trip will be well-liked by executives and
travelers alike.

Patz!

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Jun 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/5/98
to

Nick Horianopoulos wrote in message <3577146C...@concentric.net>...

>Patz! wrote:
>> Hmm...I believe the word JAGUAR comes to mind?
>Oh, CLEARLY, Jaguar comes to mind when I think of "technologically
advanced,
>reliable systems." Please! For years on end, Jaguar was regarded as the
Great
>Turd of the automotive industry, until Ford bought it out, and lots of
>engineering expertise was devoted to making these vehicles into roadworthy
>transportation. Now, Jaguar is a far better car than it once was -- but
that
>doesn't reflect that any sizable number of British consumer products are
widely
>distributed, or even liked in Great Britain. So, you though of Jaguar...
that's
>ONE. I could immediately list at least twenty US firms that manufacture
>products of the highest quality, and a like number of Japanese and German
>firms.
Granted I don't know much about British products, but I'm not even British,
and all the while, I've been talking about CARS. I KNOW Japanese and German
cars are great, so maybe you should try to convince me about American cars
instead.

>> >THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only
>> >nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>> >widely.

>> The Japanese and German cars are synonymous with quality and excellence,
but
>> American cars? Geez, who are you kidding?! Let's put it this way: when
was
>> the last time ANY American car made it to the "most reliable" lists in
>> Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue?
>> Conversely, almost ALL the cars listed on the "annual worst used cars"
lists
>> are American. This year, about 90% of those listed under the "Losers"
side
>> of the "Winners and Losers" list are American. Similarly, last year,
100%
>> of those listed under the "Worst" side of the "Best and Worst Used Cars"
>> list are American!
>> Just because certain cars are exported widely doesn't necessarily mean
that
>> it is of high quality. It could mean that they are priced cheaper than
>> most. Incidentally, American cars are not exported as widely as you
think.
>> Japanese and German cars are everywhere, however. I'm sorry for saying
>> this, but if you're talking about quality, alot of American cars are
>> pathetic when compared to their Japanese counterparts. I can understand
>> your patriotism, but we need a dose of reality here!

>A dose of reality? Here's a dose: The Buick Regal was chief in quality in
1994
>(I believe that it was a J.D. POwer & Associates study), and Buick
ROUTINELY
>scores high on quality control.

Oh, I see. Big deal. Really great and everything. They just never made it
to the list, right? NEXT!
Oh, btw, you have not addressed the issues I pointed out yet.

>I owned a Chevy Tahoe, and it was built as
>solidly and competently as any Mercedes Benz I've ever seen.

Now you're talking about trucks. Mercedes? How long have they been in the
SUV business?

>Wonder why Light
>Truck sales finally have outpaced passenger car sales? One of the reasons
is
>because the American auto manufacturers tend to build them better than they
>build their passenger cars, because they are making so much more money on
each
>truck they sell.

Is that another excuse for lousy American cars? Okay. What about BEFORE
truck sales outpaced passenger car sales? What was the story then? What's
the excuse? Or perhaps it's because they were consistently making lousy
cars that they decided to quit while they could and venture into an area
that the foreign car-makers haven't looked into yet?

>American cars are INDEED widely distributed, all over the
>planet.

Yeah, and what percentage of the world's market share?

>I've owned many Japanese cars, and both of my passenger vehicles are
>now of Japanese manufacture -- but I wish the truck I was driving was the
Ford
>F-250 I sprayed a bedliner in today, or the 1999 Chevy. Why? My Toyota
Tacoma
>is a tinny piece of shit that will surely kill me if I should run into an
>errant small bug. It is underpowered, undersized, and, for the money, short
on
>features.

That's your problem, you chose the wrong vehicle for the job. Maybe you
should have done your share of research before you bought it? The same
reason why I wouldn't count on the Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Dodge
Intrepid, Ford Bronco, Dodge Dakota 4WD, Chevvy Blazer, Chevy S-10 Blazer,
GMC Jimmy, GMC S-15 Jimmy, Chrysler Cirrus, Dodge Stratus, Chevvy S-10 4WD,
GMC S-15 Sonoma 4WD, Chevvy Camaro V8, Pontiac Firebird V8, Chrysler Town
and Country, Dodge Grand Caravan, Plymouth Grand Voyager, Ford F-150 4WD,
Eagle Vision, Ford Taurus SHO, Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais, Ford Tempo,
Mercury Topaz, Dodge Ram 1500 4WD, Dodge Neon, Plymouth Neon, Chrysler
LeBaron coupe, Chrysler Lebaron Convertible, Jeep Wrangler, Chevvy Monte
Carlo, GMC Yukon, Chevvy K-Blazer and GMC Yukon for reliability.

>In a recent Car and Driver test, the Oldsmobile Intrigue scored higher than
the
>Toyota Camry in many areas, including quality.

Yeah, and I bet it'll outsell the Camry anyday now.

>Many, many cars, and consumer products made in this country, are without
peer anywhere else in the world.
>Do me a favor: don't accuse me of allowing mindless patriotism to get in
the
>way of logic and reality.

Sure, Niko. Sure thing.

>Niko
>Remember, a Winner is a Loser with bad memory... He forgets to quit!

Does that make you a winner then?
Look, I wouldn't have said anything about American cars at all, but I have
absolutely no tolerance for people who adopt an elitist attitude towards
themselves and bad-mouth about other countries.

Regards,
Patz!


Eric Lucas

unread,
Jun 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/5/98
to

> Nick Horianopoulos wrote in message <3577146C...@concentric.net>...
>
> >Wonder why Light
> >Truck sales finally have outpaced passenger car sales? One of the reasons
> is
> >because the American auto manufacturers tend to build them better than they
> >build their passenger cars, because they are making so much more money on
> each
> >truck they sell.

That's crap. Trucks and SUVs are, according to every report I've seen, considerably less safe than
cars. The reason for this is that trucks and SUVs are subject to far less stringent safety
standards than cars. And this is one reason they make so much money on them--they don't have to
spend all their profit putting safety features on them.

The reason sales are so high on trucks and SUVs is that the auto companies have hired Madison Ave.
to convince you that you are *so* un-manly if you don't drive a truck or SUV. And as usual, what
Madison Ave. puts out, the American public swallows whole.

Eric Lucas

Patz!

unread,
Jun 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/5/98
to

Kennedy wrote in message ...
>In article <6l82ps$aj78$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>, Patz!
><ps...@prodigy.net> writes

>>Nick Horianopoulos wrote in message <3577146C...@concentric.net>...
>>
>>>American cars are INDEED widely distributed, all over the
>>>planet.
>>Yeah, and what percentage of the world's market share?
>In fairness to Nick, I would certainly hope that the American cars took
>a large percentage of the world market - after all around 40% of the
>world market for cars is in the US. If they don't dominate on their
>home turf there's little point considering the figures for export.
>Perhaps you should be considering the EXPORT market,

Actually, I was referring to the export market, because Nick claims that


American cars are INDEED widely distributed, "all over the planet".

Regards,
Patz!

Eli Troychansky

unread,
Jun 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/5/98
to

Eric Lucas wrote:

> The reason sales are so high on trucks and SUVs is that the auto
> companies have hired Madison Ave.
> to convince you that you are *so* un-manly if you don't drive a truck
> or SUV. And as usual, what
> Madison Ave. puts out, the American public swallows whole.

Eric,

Have you by any chance witnessed the latest Mitsubishi advertising
masterpiece? No, not the one where the Eclipse RS is called a sports
car..

We are shown a gym with people working out. All of a sudden, there is a
page saying something to the effect of "The guy with the purple van --
your lights are on". Then we see a guy peddling on a bike, looking
sheepish. Cut to a "rugged road" shot of a Montero.

Like that "purple van" can't do everything that a Montero can.

Kennedy

unread,
Jun 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/6/98
to

In article <3577146C...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
<gr...@concentric.net> writes

>So, you though of Jaguar... that's
>ONE. I could immediately list at least twenty US firms that manufacture
>products of the highest quality,

Think you have a biased opinion - you are comparing products exported
with those of the home market.


>
>A dose of reality? Here's a dose: The Buick Regal was chief in quality in 1994
>(I believe that it was a J.D. POwer & Associates study), and Buick ROUTINELY
>scores high on quality control.

And Buick export where exactly? Not into Europe, that's for sure while
there are one or two US cars that are exported to the other side of the
pond - Cherokee Jeeps etc. - they do tend to be low down the quality
range when compared to the home products.

Strange that you experience the opposite - hence my query about whether
your views are biased. From the opposite standpoint I notice exactly
the opposite point of view - US cars over here are unreliable hunks of
crap that can't really compete with the home products for reliability
and support.

> American cars are INDEED widely distributed, all over the
>planet.

Not in my experience they're not - they are almost non-existent in
Europe apart from the one or two SUV's like I mentioned earlier and I
see those a lot less on European roads than I see European cars -
including British cars like MG's, Jag's and Rollers - on US roads.

Like I said - don't forget your viewpoint is pretty biased.

Kennedy

unread,
Jun 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/6/98
to

In article <6l82ps$aj78$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>, Patz!
<ps...@prodigy.net> writes
>Nick Horianopoulos wrote in message <3577146C...@concentric.net>...
>
>>American cars are INDEED widely distributed, all over the
>>planet.
>Yeah, and what percentage of the world's market share?
>
In fairness to Nick, I would certainly hope that the American cars took
a large percentage of the world market - after all around 40% of the
world market for cars is in the US. If they don't dominate on their
home turf there's little point considering the figures for export.

Perhaps you should be considering the EXPORT market, but there is little
point really since your all squabbling around in the noise levels
compared to Japan and Korea.

Kennedy

unread,
Jun 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/6/98
to

In article <357719DE...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
<gr...@concentric.net> writes
>Kennedy wrote:
>
>> In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
>> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
>> >
>> >

>> >British cars, and many British consumer products, have carried on this
>> >"proud" tradition for years on end... When was the last British consumer
>> >product that had any technologically advanced systems distributed in the
>> >US? THe Japanese, the Germans, and the Americans are chiefly the only

>> >nations which produce goods of such high quality that they are exported
>> >widely.
>> >
>> A bit out of touch aren't you Niko -
>
>No I'm not.
>
>
>> UK exports have been outstripping
>> Germany's for years!
>
>Funny... I haven't seen a new British car, airliner, computer, telephone, or
>refrigerator in years...

Plenty of them around - perhaps we don't export them to the US die to
the strength of the pound, but they are common enough in Europe and
other parts of the world.

>or ever, for that matter. Germany, however, makes
>great cars, razors, coffee makers, telephone equipment, and in a consortium,
>great airliners. fighter aircraft, and superb helicopters.

Now Nico - tell me exactly which significant part of any airliner the
Germans make? The major aircraft manufacturer in Europe is Airbus
Industrie, of which the dominant partners are British Aerospace (UK) and
Aerospatiale (F). Similarly fighter aircraft - the major current
fighter aircraft production is Panavia, producing the Tornado and whilst
German industry plays a bigger, though secondary role, in that they do
so because France preferred to develop their much more successful Mirage
line and therefore took no part in Panavia. In the Eurofighter
consortium, developing EFA it was touch and go as to whether Germany
even took any role at all, with the major part of this programme being
conducted at British Aerospace, Warton! All of this probably goes a
long way to explain why I have had a team of Boeing engineers camped
outside of my office for the last 6 months - putting our technology onto
US civil and fighter aircraft.

Telephone equipment? GPT are about as large as it gets in the business,
exporting to over half the countries in the world - once again, the
Germans are the minor partner. And should you ever venture out of the
US and wish to make a private phone call or send a fax or post to ramm
from the aircraft, don't expect to use a US made telephone that only
works over the US mainland, chances are you'll be using GEC equipment to
do so!

In short Nico, quit blowing wind up your own ass and get more of a
balanced view of the economic world. Sure, Germany plays a significant
role - but your view that somehow it is the only European country to do
so is ludicrous.


>
>> As fot good of quality, I think that Rolls Royce
>> is still the luxury car benchmark,
>
>I doubt that it exceeds Mercedes, Lexus, or Acura in quality -- and the most
>expensive of these makes are but a tiny fraction of the cheapest Rolls.

Strange that its the Rollers that the rich and powerful aspire to.


>
>> and you'll find that the US, Germany
>> and Japan have yet to manufacture a supersonic airliner, just to mention
>> a couple of items. :-)
>

>A supersonic airliner? Who cares? Now, the United States is producing a
>HYPERSONIC airliner (the National Space Plane project) -

Paper studies don't count - Concorde has been flying supersonic for over
20 years - Boeing's SST didn't get off the ground, though I hear that
some parts did get off the drawing board!

If you want to get into a pissing contest about cars and speed, ask
yourself what happened to the two teams competing for the land speed
record on Black Rock Desert last year. Just exactly why was the over-
funded US attempt running at HALF the speed of the team that could only
afford ONE bottle of champagne to celebrate their breaking of the sound
barrier? Care to tell us where THAT team came from?

>- and you can be
>sure that the 30 minute US - Tokyo trip will be well-liked by executives and
>travelers alike.
>

And we all expect to be alive when THAT finally takes to the air - keep
taking the tablets Nico, they MIGHT make you live long enough!

Personally I preferred it when the subject was Miata's - you had
something to contribute to the discussion then!

Eric Lucas

unread,
Jun 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/6/98
to

Eli Troychansky wrote:

> Have you by any chance witnessed the latest Mitsubishi advertising
> masterpiece? No, not the one where the Eclipse RS is called a sports
> car..
>
> We are shown a gym with people working out. All of a sudden, there is a
> page saying something to the effect of "The guy with the purple van --
> your lights are on". Then we see a guy peddling on a bike, looking
> sheepish. Cut to a "rugged road" shot of a Montero.
>
> Like that "purple van" can't do everything that a Montero can.

LOL! 8^D Haven't seen it yet, will be looking for it.

Eric Lucas

One of the Clarks

unread,
Jun 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/7/98
to

My sister just got an XJ6 that sold new for $42,000, but this year sold for $9,000
(those are US prices). I think it's a '90 but not too sure. That's some serious
depriciation there.

--
Brian Clark
(Remove "SPAMICIDE" to contact.)

Jim Carr

unread,
Jun 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/8/98
to

Izya Yagolnitser <vi...@netcom.com> writes:
>
>There is also an article in SF Chronicle, but that's another story...

Well, tell it!

Please.

--
James A. Carr <j...@scri.fsu.edu> | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/ | desired to this or any address
Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | that resolves to my account
Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | for any reason at any time.

Johan Eriksson

unread,
Jun 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/9/98
to

>And Buick export where exactly? Not into Europe, that's for sure while
>there are one or two US cars that are exported to the other side of the
>pond - Cherokee Jeeps etc. - they do tend to be low down the quality
>range when compared to the home products.

Ahem...a few years ago they actually did just that. :-) Only the Park
Avenue model and only of r ayear or two, but... :-)

Neither GM nor Chrysler export more than one brand each, although for
GM the preferred brand has changed over the last few years. For a
couple of years it was Pontiac and only Trans Am and Trans Sport; now
it's only Corvette (C5) and Camaro, plus Chevrolet Trans Sport (which
I believe is called Pontiac Trans Sport in the US). Oh, and trucks and
vans have always been of the Chevy brand here. On top of that I'm
pretty sure they've decided to also sell the new Cadillac Seville
here.

Chrysler has adopted another standpoint - they import a number of
different models, but they're all called Chrysler. So we have the
Chrysler Vision (Eagle), Chrysler Viper (Dodge) and Chrysler Voyager
(Plymouth, I think).



>Strange that you experience the opposite - hence my query about whether
>your views are biased. From the opposite standpoint I notice exactly
>the opposite point of view - US cars over here are unreliable hunks of
>crap that can't really compete with the home products for reliability
>and support.

That's the common standpoint in European auto magazines. As far as I'm
concernedI haven't checked out enough American cars to form an
opinion. :-)

/Johan

Pedro A. Vera-Perez

unread,
Jun 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/9/98
to

The hell you say. I lived for 3 years in Germany and wherever I was the
Germans drooled over my Dodge Neon. They were modifying the hell out of it
way before Mopar even started adding stuff apart from the ACR components.
The Chrysler dealer in Homburg, Rheinland Pfalz was more professional and
competent than any car dealer I ever had to do business with. The military
dealer and the on-base service center were scum.

Also, you have to see them going nuts with ANY muscle car. I had a work mate
that just paid-off his Z-28 and he had a German begging for him to sell it
to him. He cried all the way to the bank.

--
Pedro & Esmeralda
1999 Emerald Green TP
Team MCA
Team Air Horns
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/6145>

Jim Carr

unread,
Jun 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/11/98
to

Eric Lucas <eal...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>Trucks and SUVs are, according to every report I've seen, considerably
>less safe than cars.

And, for your amusement, one of those ubiquitous TV "newsmagazines"
is rerunning their story about how to roll an SUV this week. I only
saw the teaser so I don't know the day or network. Might even be
next week, but it has some great video.

>The reason for this is that trucks and SUVs are subject to far less
>stringent safety standards than cars.

And then there is the ride height...

Alan K. Young

unread,
Jun 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/1/98
to

FWIW, Webster's Seventh Collegiate Dictionary (1965):

sports car n: a low fast usu. two-seat open automobile


-- unless you want to debate 'fast', sounds like a Miata to me!

Alan


Mark Petry

unread,
Jun 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/1/98
to

But you forgot to mention REAL sports cars:

RENTAL Cars !

Yeeehaa.


================================================
Mark Petry Page/Voicemail: 800.401.3451
San Jose, CA mpe...@pacbell.net
================================================

Alan K. Young

unread,
Jun 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/1/98
to expm...@aol.com

Webster's Seventh Collegiate Dictionary (1965):

roadster n: ...2(b) an automobile with an open body and one cross seat
with a luggage compartment or rumble seat in the rear.

... also sounds like a Miata qualifies!

Alan

Expmiata wrote:

> But but but but but.......what about Roadster?...that's how I think of my
> Miata....fer some reason...
>
> Cissy
> Krikkit
> 90A Crystal White/Stripes
> Borla Catback
> Air Scoops
> CATZ XLO's
> MOOO!!
> http://members.aol.com/expmiata/index.html

TeamEuroMeko

unread,
Jun 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/1/98
to

Here is my 2 cents worth. I believe there is a terminology dubbed "Super
Sports Car", no?. Since the words sports car is now flung around like a
(fill in the expletive) let's just do this:

Super Sports Car:
Corvette, NSX, Diablo, e.t.c

Regular Sports Car:
MR2, Miata,

Vintage Regular Sports Cars
507, Bugeye, TR7,240Z,e.t.c.

Sporty Type Cars:
CRX, Integra, and other wrong wheel drive cars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Sydney's RCXchange
We Buy/Sell/Trade Remote Controlled Hobby Equipments
http://home1.gte.net/euromeko - euro...@gte.net

Henry Payne wrote in message
<01bd8d97$70439fa0$ce45...@hrp4017.dukepower.com>...>Miata was not a sports
car.
>

Henry Payne

unread,
Jun 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/1/98
to

Izya Yagolnitser (is that a real name or what?) wrote that in his NSHO the

Miata was not a sports car.

A voice to the contrary.

My 1959 Austin Healey Sprite (a "Bugeye") has been called a lot of things,
cute, unreliable, piece of @#*&% etc, but there has been 100% agreement on
what it was, and that is a sports car. It weighs about 1152 pounds, had 48
hp stock, tiny 155-80-13 tires, ox cart suspension, but it was a sports
car. Yet, by every performance measure the Miata blows it away.

Top goes down on both.

glued to the road feel - Bugeye ties with Miata on smooth roads, but hit a
bump & its oh shit!, you suddenly jumped sideways a car width in the
Sprite. (The Sprite quarter eliptic standard rear springs has 15 leaves in
it! Can you say STIFF?) The Miata IRS takes most bumps in stride. Miata
wins this one.

Brakes? Bugeye has 4 wheel drum with oh, I don't know , 1/2" wide brake
shoes? (my mower has bigger brakes) - Miata by big margin although the
Sprite did stop well, due to the light weight I guess.

Steering is close, bit more direct with no power for the Sprite

Shifting is close with nod to Sprite.

Intermittent wipers? The Lucas system on the Sprite is always
intermittent! Wasn't designed that way, just happened!

0 - 60 in the Sprite? got a sundial? 60 is too close to the top speed of
80 something. Miata all the way.

The only way some purist could object to the Miata as a Sports Car
contrasted with a Bugeye, is that it is too civilized. Its is too
reliable, too comfortable, hell, the heater actually puts out hot air & has
a/c available, as are leather seats, power windows, power steering, cruise
control not to mention an actual sound system w/cd available.

The above features are part and parcel of modern cars, and the Miata is
still a sports car. I have one 59 Sprite, 4 various Spitfires, and 3
Miatas in the family, and all are sports cars, its just that the newer cars
are better than the old ones.

Compared to the Miata, my 1980 RX-7 is much quicker & faster. It does not
stop as well, nor does it corner as well. Is the RX-7 a sports car? IMO,
only if you broaden the definition to include hard tops.

As poor a car as the 59 Sprite is/was, it was better than a 48 MG, which in
turn was better than its predecessors. They were all sports cars. Try
telling the MG-TD owner otherwise!

Bottom line, "a man hears what he wants to hear, & disregards the rest"
(Paul Simon, The Boxer).

It doesn't really matter what it is called, we all know why we own Miatas
.. they are great, fun little cars. But they ARE sports cars!

Henry
91 BRG

Pedro A. Vera-Perez

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

Saw the movie. The statement is 100% on the money. No real sports car like
the one you rent :-)

Well, except a pathetic Fiat I rented during my last week in Germany,
smaller than a Geo Metro!

Izya Yagolnitser

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

Henry Payne wrote:
>
> Izya Yagolnitser (is that a real name or what?)
>
I have a tough time believing it myself, but it is my real name, you
could find me in 411 and in the US Chess Federation listing. There is

Simon Brown

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

Derek,

Microsoft - well, maybe, but most countries have developed high-quality
software / hardware, and I will not nit-pick on this point. Microsoft's
strength was originally Bill Gate's marketing, not product quality. The
British are superbly good at designing products and being incapable of
selling / applying quality control.

But, I must say, the improvement in American beer over the last 10 - 15
years is staggering. I always used equate US beer with the very worst
available, but the quality available from the micro (and not so micro)
breweries is now excellent. I always look forward to a visit to the US if
only to drink the beer (I'm not a wine person).

The beer challenge is to ship it in the cask, but I guess that the warm US
climate may put paid to that - the bottles is good enough.

Oh - you missed out US high-end stereo. I just imported $45k-worth from the
US to Switzerland, although the Brits design good stuff as well.

Simon (+ Marvin, '99 Orange / Bronze colour)

PS: For other replies - the first calculator was British, don't you know!
Guy called Sinclair I think, who design innovative products and went bust
more times than can be believed.

PPS: Isn't the Miata a British-designed car?

Derek Hendrickson wrote in message <6l3pp6$qv$1...@news.campus.mci.net>...
>And Microsoft's many products, most computers ran by dos or windows,
>computers, beer, and lots of technology.
>
>--
>Derek Hendrickson
>Greenville, NC 27834
>97' STO 328/1500
>
>
>Timothy Lee wrote in message <357536CE...@wharton.upenn.edu>...
>>> Surely a typo here? Japanese and German yes, but American consumer goods
>>> with high quality?
>>>
>>> Not on this planet anyway.
>>
>>I beg to differ. Give us *some* credit. HP calculators and printers,
>>Motorola cell phones, California and Oregon wines, the Netscape browser
and
>>Lotus spreadsheet . . .
>>
>>--
>>Timothy Lee
>>University of Pennsylvania BSE '91 / MBA '98
>>Alumnus of the United States Navy "Respect all; fear none."
>>http://equity.wharton.upenn.edu/~timoth31/
>>timo...@wharton.upenn.edu
>>
>>
>
>

Rexven

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

"Mark Petry" <mpe...@pacbell.net> wrote:

>But you forgot to mention REAL sports cars:
> RENTAL Cars !
>Yeeehaa.

Nah, those fall under Rally Cars and Dedicated Off-Roaders!

...................
My Miata! 0-Mach .16 in 90 seconds!

Jim Carr

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

"Mark Petry" <mpe...@pacbell.net> writes:
>
>But you forgot to mention REAL sports cars:
> RENTAL Cars !

A concept first immortalized in "Fear and loathing". Haven't seen
the movie so I don't know if the lawyers left it in. (Have seen
Bulworth, which I highly recommend.)

Doug Hagerman

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

Not to beat a dead horse, but obviously there were a whole bunch of pre-war
MGs that were clearly sports cars but that could put out only something
like 30-40 HP. The Miata is a sports car, and a very good one...


John Miller

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

Doug Hagerman wrote in message
<01bd8e69$01474480$1718...@hagermanu2000.shr.dec.com>...

>Not to beat a dead horse, but obviously there were a whole bunch of pre-war
>MGs that were clearly sports cars but that could put out only something
>like 30-40 HP. The Miata is a sports car, and a very good one...


And reading in the June Road and Track, we find that the
original Porsche 356 had 55 h.p., and Porsche considered
the coupe version to be a GT car.


Expmiata

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

>Super Sports Car:
>Corvette, NSX, Diablo, e.t.c
>
>Regular Sports Car:
>MR2, Miata,
>
>Vintage Regular Sports Cars
>507, Bugeye, TR7,240Z,e.t.c.
>
>Sporty Type Cars:
>CRX, Integra, and other wrong wheel drive cars.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------
>Sydney's RCXchange
>We Buy/Sell/Trade Remote Controlled Hobby Equipments
>http://home1.gte.net/euromeko - euro...@gte.net
>
>Henry Payne wrote in message
><01bd8d97$70439fa0$ce45...@hrp4017.dukepower.com>...>Miata was not a sports
>car.
>>

Tom Barnes

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to Kennedy

Just struck me that the 'classic' British sports cars with their
ahh...charming... reliability was produced by the same nation that gave
birth to the entirely reliable Hurricane and Spitfire (and the
Rolls-Royce Merlin that powered them as well as the Mustang). So how
could this be? Did British cars suffer from some sort of mechanical
karmic burden accumulated during the Battle of Britain?

Tom

P.S. No officer, I haven't had a drop.

Izya Yagolnitser

unread,
Jun 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/2/98
to

I have to agree with that. If you put it that way, it all makes sense.

TeamEuroMeko wrote:
>
> Here is my 2 cents worth. I believe there is a terminology dubbed "Super
> Sports Car", no?. Since the words sports car is now flung around like a
> (fill in the expletive) let's just do this:
>

Kennedy

unread,
Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

In article <01bd8d97$70439fa0$ce45...@hrp4017.dukepower.com>, Henry
Payne <HPa...@dpcmail.dukepower.com> writes

>Izya Yagolnitser (is that a real name or what?) wrote that in his NSHO the
>Miata was not a sports car.
>
>A voice to the contrary.
>
>My 1959 Austin Healey Sprite (a "Bugeye") has been called a lot of things,
>cute, unreliable, piece of @#*&% etc, but there has been 100% agreement on
>what it was, and that is a sports car. It weighs about 1152 pounds, had 48
>hp stock, tiny 155-80-13 tires, ox cart suspension, but it was a sports
>car. Yet, by every performance measure the Miata blows it away.
>

IMHO the simple answer to this conundrum is that Izya has a different
view of a sports car from the rest of us. IIRC, the term 'sports car'
was first applied to the small lightweight open-top part-time racing
cars epitomised by the British and Italian motor industries in the pre-
war era. A few enlightened US servicemen fell in love with the concept
while 'enjoying' active service in Europe from '41 onwards. When not
dogfighting Messerschmitts in Spitfires and Hurricanes, almost every
senior RAF pilot got his kicks driving MGs, Rileys, Triumphs, Morgan or
something close, and the US servicemen soon caught on to the pastime!
Some of your parents, or perhaps even grandparents, took these and
similar cars back to the US after 1945.

Then, the sports car evolved into several forms, with the original
perfectly balanced light weight sportscar developing alongside its more
power crazed offspring. The US market was and is by far the most
significant and, as Eric Lucas says, with Detroit pushing the power fix
into the US public, the traditional LWS lost mass appeal. This was
further exacerbated by increasing emission restrictions which meant that
the small, low powered engines necessary to fit in those light cars
could no longer supply enough power to provide their traditional fun
factor. The result was inevitable. Most of the British and Italian
manufacturers ceased exporting to that market and, without the
significant US sales, many of these manufacturers ceased production
completely. Where can you buy a new TR or Spitfire these days, and the
MG of today is no more a product of Lord Nuffield's Morris Garages than
the Suzuki Cappuccino is. In fact, there is more Japanese design and
build heritage in the MG-F, via Rover's Honda collaboration, than there
is in the Miata!

So the vehicles that really spawned the true sports car heritage
virtually died during the seventies - and all that was left to carry the
name on was the power and super cars that evolved from that initial
concept. Given that they were all that was available for a significant
period - particularly in the USA - is it any wonder that Izya mis-
associates the term 'sports-car' solely with that type of vehicle?
Probably not, but that is less his fault than a quirk of fate, a
technology lag that exaggerated the gap between the performance of the
true sports car and what was acceptable.

Anyone who has read anything about the development of the Miata knows
just how off-the-wall the entire idea was at concept and how difficult
it was to have it accepted as a real product. Popular mythology said
the US public would never buy another low power, lightweight sports car
at all - no matter zippy it seemed or how good it handled. If it
couldn't sell in the US, the Brits and Eyeties had shown it couldn't be
profitable in Europe alone, and the soulless Japanese had no sports car
heritage so why build it at all? Added to that, Mazda needed another
'sports-car' like they needed a hole in the head - they already had the
RX-7 which met all the new criteria that the term 'sports-car' had
evolved to become. Even with hindsight it is still hard to believe that
Bob Hall and his team managed to persuade the Mazda management that the
car should be built at all - but its fair to say that, of the major
manufacturers, Mazda was probably the only one with the balls to let
them try. The rest is history.

The Miata took the sports car back to its roots - true, in many ways it
doesn't meet the criteria of the name that those interloping muscle cars
stole, the criteria that people like Izya believe actually defines a
sports car, but it has more right to the name 'sports car' than any of
them. The Miata is not A sports car at all. The Miata is THE sports
car - because at its introduction it was, and still is, the closest mass
produced car to those original pre-war innovators of the ideal - the
British, Italian - and even a few German - cars that the GI's took back
to the States after their tour of duty.

Izya is just a quirk of motoring history, his views are those of a
missing generation - a generation that never really knew what a sports
car was. If things go well - and from his earlier post on the original
thread it looks like its happening already - he will learn what he has
been missing all these years he has admired and misnamed power machines.
Like any sport, driving a Miata is fun and exhilarating if its done
properly - in his time, Izya will come to learn that it is that
sensational feeling that REALLY defines a sports car.

As someone here used to add to their tag line - DO NOT RESIST, YOU WILL
BE ASSIMILATED! ;-)

Leon van Dommelen

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

The American Heritage Dictionary (1994 CD edition, after
the 1992 hardcopy):

Sports Car:
An automobile equipped for racing, especially an aerodynamically
shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of
gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at
high speeds

Roadster:
An open automobile having a single seat in the front for two or three
people and a rumble seat or luggage compartment in the back.

Leon, who does not care what name any accountant or linguist wants to
give to the best little sports car the world has ever produced.
--
Leon van Dommelen I am not responsible for what I say
domm...@zmiata.net-->remove z! White 1996 PEP Sebring Miata: Bozo
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen See my list of goodies


Expmiata

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

Um......what's the difference betweeen a Speedster and a Roadster?....besides
the spelling <for all you smart A's who thought of responding with that bit of
wit <g> ;-D

Rexven

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

expm...@aol.com (Expmiata) wrote:

>Um......what's the difference betweeen a Speedster and a Roadster?....besides
>the spelling <for all you smart A's who thought of responding with that bit of
>wit <g> ;-D

Roadsters are generally a 2-seat convertible. A Speedster generally
has a cut down windshield (less effective), smoothed out shape (or
canopy to cover the top ala Porsche 911 Speedster, Renault Sport
Spider, etc.) and higher performance than the typical Roadster. They
are also normally lighter versions of the car with less options
available. Most of the windshields are of little use and some are low
enough to require a helmet for legal use.


...................
Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?

Expmiata

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Jun 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM6/3/98
to

>
>Roadsters are generally a 2-seat convertible. A Speedster generally
>has a cut down windshield (less effective), smoothed out shape (or
>canopy to cover the top ala Porsche 911 Speedster, Renault Sport
>Spider, etc.) and higher performance than the typical Roadster

Ya know Myk.....I knew you would have the answer...my winged friend :-D

kennedym...@gmail.com

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Dec 11, 2018, 2:34:12 PM12/11/18
to
On Saturday, 6 June 1998 08:00:00 UTC+1, Kennedy wrote:
> In article <357719DE...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
> >Kennedy wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
> >> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
> >> >
> >A supersonic airliner? Who cares? Now, the United States is producing a
> >HYPERSONIC airliner (the National Space Plane project) -
>
> And we all expect to be alive when THAT finally takes to the air - keep
> taking the tablets Nico, they MIGHT make you live long enough!
>
Hahaha. Just found this old thread when searching for something on Google so I had to point out that, 20 years on, your Hypersonic airliner still hasn't got off the drawing board. ;-)

Leon van Dommelen

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Dec 15, 2018, 12:52:18 AM12/15/18
to
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 11:34:11 -0800, kennedymcewen1958 wrote:

> On Saturday, 6 June 1998 08:00:00 UTC+1, Kennedy wrote:
>> In article <357719DE...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
>> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
>> >Kennedy wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <3574A963...@concentric.net>, Nick Horianopoulos
>> >> <gr...@concentric.net> writes
>> >> >
>> >A supersonic airliner? Who cares? Now, the United States is producing a
>> >HYPERSONIC airliner (the National Space Plane project) -
>>
>> And we all expect to be alive when THAT finally takes to the air - keep
>> taking the tablets Nico, they MIGHT make you live long enough!
>>
> Hahaha. Just found this old thread when searching for something on Google so I had to point out that, 20 years on, your Hypersonic airliner still hasn't got off the drawing board. ;-)

Hope springs eternal. Maybe new technology may achieve where previous
efforts faltered. But the basic idea is not new at all, just the "catamaran"
idea dating back at least half a millennium. By having a dual body/wing, the
two bodies can reflect each other's wave energy back to each other, rather
than letting it escape to infinity. This can in principle kill the supersonic
boom problem, as well as the large power requirements to replenish all that
lost energy.

Of course this is only for supersonic flow. I did not check the actual dates,
but I would be pretty sure the hypersonic airliner idea dated from the time
that crack cocaine was introduced. ;)

Leon
Now in a 2016 Miata and eyeing a 2018.
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