Miata vs. MGF vs. Barchetta
Johannes Swartling
I realize that most people on this newsgroup are Americans, so
what I am about to write doesn't concern most of you. Unless, of
course, you have a general interest in sports cars, and in particular
'Miata-class' sports cars. And I guess that most of you have!
There was an extensive test of the Miata, the MGF and the Fiat Barchetta
in the latest issue of the Swedish magazine Teknikens Varld. All
cars tested were the 97 models. I can please you all by telling that
the Miata got the highest over all score, and was regarded the best
buy. But it wasn't in top when it comes to driving fun! Most testers
thought the Barchetta was most fun to drive, because of its vivid
engine and good road handling capabilities. The Barchetta is a front
engine, front drive design, but according to the test it behaves
almost like a rear drive car with the typical sports car oversteer
tendencies. The MGF has the lowest and stiffest suspension, and its
mid-mounted engine makes for a well balanced behavior, where the
oversteer/understeer can be controlled with the accelerator.
The Miata's suspension was regarded as the softest and least precise.
When it comes to performance, the three were almost exactly equal,
with 0 - 100 km/h (0 - 62 mph) at around 9 s, and a top speed of
a little less than 200 km/h. One downer though: Swedish law requires
daylight running lights, and the parking lights aren't bright
enough for this, so if you want to be legal in the Miata you have
to keep the pop-up lighs up all the time. This knocks off around
20 km/h on the top speed. Not that I've seen any Miatas driving
around with the pop-up lights up during daytime, so in reality
it shouldn't matter... Anyway, the Miata was the best car on
at least one point: the transmission. The MGF's was the worst.
The appearance of the cars is of course very much a matter of
personal taste, but the Miata was generally regarded as the 'cutest'
and most conventional. The Italians have worked hard on the style
of the Barchetta, almost to the point where they overdid it. The
Fiat isn't exactly a beautiful car, but it has cool retro-style
wheels, interesting door knobs (totally impractical though) and an
interior that is far better looking than the Miata's and the MGF's.
The MGF has the most 'aggressive' look, with its high rear and the
Ferrari-style air-intake holes.
The Miata won the competition mostly because it has the highest
quality. Both the MGF and the Barchetta had a lot of quirks and
noises, and a few parts actually fell off the the MGF during
a day of hard testing.
Summary: Miata -- Japanese quality in a sports car made for the
American market, and its demand for comfortable vehicles, i.e.
too soft suspension (prejudice???). Best buy.
Barchetta -- Best driving fun. Impractical. For enthusiasts
who don't mind the possibly lower quality.
MGF -- Best look. Sports car tradition. Stiffest suspension.
There was also a short comparison to the slightly more expensive
BMW Z3. In short, the verdict was Zzzzzzzzzzz3.
I was happy to read this test, since I've been thinking of buying
one of these cars. Although I still intend to test drive them all
before making a decision, I must say that there have to be very
strong arguments for me not to choose the Miata.
The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
-- Lowest price
-- Best quality
-- It can't be that much more fun driving an MGF or Barchetta, could it?
-- The suspension of the Miata can be lowered and stiffened
Any comments on this? (I'm sure there are...)
Johannes -- Mars Red '83 VW Golf
Pedro A. Vera-Perez
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------------F11C2A6E9D0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In my totally biased opinion, there was no match. Why they bothered in
comparing three cars with different drivetrain configurations? One FWD,
one RWD and one mid-engine. Three totally different cars. It would have
been easier to compare the Fiat to a Lotus Elan (FWD too). The Miata
should have been compared to other front engine, rwd cars. The MGB is
much on its own since MR2 departed (corrections, please!)
You already scored points with the ZZZZZZZZZZZ3 remark.
Don't base your decision just on the magazine test drives. But here's a
warning: Do NOT, I repeat, Do NOT, test drive a Miata unless you're
ready to buy it that day. If you drive it and you like it, its going to
be very frustrating if you cannot buy it on the spot!
It took me two months from my first test drive to the time I got to buy
one. Two VERY long months!
--
Pedro A. Vera-Perez
RF/Orbit Operations
American Mobile Satellite Corp.
'91 Red Miata A pkg
http://www.primenet.com/~pvera
------------F11C2A6E9D0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Pedro A. Vera-Perez
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nsmailMV.TMP"
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nsmailMV.TMP"
BEGIN:VCARD
FN:Pedro A. Vera-Perez
N:;Pedro A. Vera-Perez
EMAIL;INTERNET:pv...@primenet.com
X-MOZILLA-HTML:F
END:VCARD
------------F11C2A6E9D0--
Lanny Chambers
>I was happy to read this test, since I've been thinking of buying
>one of these cars. Although I still intend to test drive them all
>before making a decision, I must say that there have to be very
>strong arguments for me not to choose the Miata.
>The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
>-- Lowest price
>-- Best quality
>-- It can't be that much more fun driving an MGF or Barchetta, could it?
>-- The suspension of the Miata can be lowered and stiffened
The history of MGs and Fiats in the American market may differ from yours
in Sweden, but all Fiats--every model--have long had a reputation for being
great fun for 30,000 miles (50, 000 km)...then they fall apart: the
interior plastic rots, the valves need grinding, pieces literally fall off
the car. Of course, the less said about MG reliability the better. One very
important point in comparing these 3 cars is that you'd be out driving the
Miata, while the others were in the repair shop waiting for expensive
parts.
And yes, it seems the stock Miata is just a starting point for many owners.
For another US$5000 and a few days twisting wrenches, you could have an
outrageously high-performance sports car that will blow the doors off
almost anything on the road (at least below 200 kph). I don't suppose I'll
ever do that myself, but the fantasies are delicious... :-)
Lanny Chambers (la...@derived.com) St. Louis, USA
Visit the Hummingbird Page: <http://www.derived.com/hummers>
Casey Charlton
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:28:27 -0500, you wrote:
>>The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
>>-- Lowest price
Yep, it wins..
>>-- Best quality
Debatable, MG have pulled out all the stops in the quality dept. Most
remaining are minor niggles. Almost all get resolved at first/second
service.
>>-- It can't be that much more fun driving an MGF or Barchetta, could it?
Nope, having test driven the Miata and the F, I can tell you that the
Miata was too 'mickey mouse' for me (no flames please). I bought the F
after a 15 minute drive in it - haven't regretted it since.
>>-- The suspension of the Miata can be lowered and stiffened
The F is already there, plus it has a mid engine - giving it excellent
cornering, and the VVC engine is a dream come true.
>SNIP<
>Of course, the less said about MG reliability the better. One very
>important point in comparing these 3 cars is that you'd be out driving the
>Miata, while the others were in the repair shop waiting for expensive
>parts.
I think that's a bit unfair. Since I got my F I haven't stopped
driving it, and nobody else I know with an F (and that's a large
number) have had any major problems with it.
>And yes, it seems the stock Miata is just a starting point for many owners.
>For another US$5000 and a few days twisting wrenches, you could have an
>outrageously high-performance sports car that will blow the doors off
>almost anything on the road (at least below 200 kph). I don't suppose I'll
>ever do that myself, but the fantasies are delicious... :-)
Yes, the F is more expensive than the Miata - but for me it was more
than worth it.
Almost all reviews I've seen back up the view that while the Miata is
fun, the MG is just a better car all round (including fun).
In the UK check back issues of Car & What Car magazines (Roadster of
the Year last year, second to the Lotus Elise this year, rated top out
of the MGF, Miata and Z3 last month).
At the end of the day, go out and drive them all....it's personal
choice.
Sorry to all you US drivers, I know you can't drive the F, so you are
missing out, but at least you get second best with the Miata (duck
before flames hit ;-)
Casey
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Charlton ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henry Payne
Casey Charlton <ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<33652625...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:28:27 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >>The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
> >>-- Lowest price
> Yep, it wins..
>
> >>-- Best quality
> Debatable, MG have (sic) pulled out all the stops in the quality dept.
Most
> remaining are minor niggles. Almost all get resolved at first/second
> service.
>
Casey, if you really believe that line, than you will be willing to let us
know how things are going at the 100,000 mile mark and 200,000 mile mark.
I will give you 10 to 1 odds that the reliability index on the Miata will
blow away the MGF. I know you said they improved the quality...but they
started from such an abysmal low that it wouldn't take anything to get
"better". Voice of experience...I've had English cars since 1970
(currently own a motly fleet of 5 Spits and Healey's)...love em but ya
gotta work on them. Remember, it isn't just this or that, we're talking
about problems with the car...this includes the engine, trans, rear end,
brakes, wiring, a/c, power steering, wind leaks, water leaks etc. This to
me is where Mazda excelled...they brought to market a Complete Package for
a "low" price. Everything works. When new. When used. When used up.
The main difference is the level of expectations...you seem satisfied that
the minor "niggles" get resolved by the first or second service. I suppose
this is a big improvement over previous MG's, the fact that problems can
actually be fixed, but we've come to expect the thing to be right out of
the gate and get annoyed if it has to go in for service.
As far as mid engine...IMO this is a negative for anyone interested in
doing their own work. It sound good on paper, and may impress the
neighbors, but causes problems in the real world. Can you see the engine?
What problems do you have with access? Can you pull the engine with the
tranny in the car? Can you pull the tranny with the engine in the car?
Even if you don't do you own work it will cost more because time is money
and the mechanic ain't working free. Heck, even Ferrari has gone back to a
front engined car! The Miata is pretty easy to get to for most things.
From another perspective the front engine of the Miata is misleading as it
is really "mid" front engine layout, like an RX-7...it has nearly perfect
weight distribution. Obviously I haven't driven an MGF, but I can't
imagine how the fun factor could be any higher than a Miata.
Having both old British sports cars, and the Miata, I would say the MX-5 is
closer to the original vision of the old cars than what the new MGF is.
The Japanese cloned all the good points and fixed all the old problems to
make a nearly "perfect" sports car. I'm not that big a fan of Japanese
products, but danged if they haven't taught the rest of the world a thing
or two about making cars!... and I think the US manufacturers are better
today because of the competition.
FWIW, if you want "higher" performance than a Miata...for a comparable
price to the MGF we in the US of A do have an affordable alternative for
fun at a higher level...its called a C-5 Corvette... new for 97 and its
still front engine (but now with a transaxle for more even weight
distribution). For about 40,000 US$, it is a LOT of go for the dough. Care
to compete? My money is on the Vette for racing ...but the Miata wins my
vote for fun and practicality...and besides, we don't race (wink, wink) on
the highway, now do we?
Casey, I'm looking forward to your response as I am sure you have some
comeback (of course it will be invalid! you see, you have an MGF and I
have a Miata) or other! Just trying to get you fired up! Ya'll come back
now, ya hear?
HP hpa...@dpcmail.dukepower.com
"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
The Boxer, by P. Simon.
Kosta Phillos
ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk (Casey Charlton) wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:28:27 -0500, you wrote:
>>>The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
>>>-- Lowest price
>Yep, it wins.
Btw, if one looks at the "spy cyber photos" in the latest AUTOWEEK
mag. you can see quit a bit of the MGF's headlight work on the new 98
Miata. So far, I have read only on how much of a Honda look it has. I
guess due to the little amount of coverage of the MGF hear in the
states, the comparision was overlooked. Any comments?
Casey Charlton
"Henry Payne" <HPa...@dpcmail.dukepower.com> wrote:
>
>
>Casey Charlton <ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
><33652625...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:28:27 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >>The main reasons in favor of the Miata are:
>> >>-- Lowest price
>> Yep, it wins..
>>
>> >>-- Best quality
>> Debatable, MG have (sic) pulled out all the stops in the quality dept.
>Most
>> remaining are minor niggles. Almost all get resolved at first/second
>> service.
>>
>Casey, if you really believe that line, than you will be willing to let us
>know how things are going at the 100,000 mile mark and 200,000 mile mark.
Sorry, I'll have traded in long before then.
>I will give you 10 to 1 odds that the reliability index on the Miata will
>blow away the MGF. I know you said they improved the quality...but they
>started from such an abysmal low that it wouldn't take anything to get
>"better".
The problem is that you are comparing the F to previous MG's. It's NOT
a successor to the B or the RV8. It's a modern sports car that
competes with the Elise, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR Chimera, etc.
etc. (p.s. the Miata doesn't fall into the 'Supercar' bracket, unlike
any of the above).
The F is made and supported by Rover, not the Rover of old, but a
Rover who is owned and heavily influenced by BMW. Anybody doubt BMW's
reliablility and customer service ? Didn't think so.
>Voice of experience...I've had English cars since 1970
>(currently own a motly fleet of 5 Spits and Healey's)...love em but ya
>gotta work on them.
You're obviously talking about old cars, not modern sports cars.
>Remember, it isn't just this or that, we're talking
>about problems with the car...this includes the engine, trans, rear end,
>brakes, wiring, a/c, power steering, wind leaks, water leaks etc. This to
>me is where Mazda excelled...they brought to market a Complete Package for
>a "low" price. Everything works. When new. When used. When used up.
Try modifying any of those things on a modern sports car.
>The main difference is the level of expectations...you seem satisfied that
>the minor "niggles" get resolved by the first or second service. I suppose
>this is a big improvement over previous MG's, the fact that problems can
>actually be fixed, but we've come to expect the thing to be right out of
>the gate and get annoyed if it has to go in for service.
It has a 3000, 6000, and 12000 mile service as standard. All F
problems I've heard of have been fixed at the 3K service.
>As far as mid engine...IMO this is a negative for anyone interested in
>doing their own work.
a) who wants to do their own work ??????
b) the fact that any modern engine owes more to computer technology
than it does to mechanics prevents most 'user' servicing /
modifications anyway.
>It sound good on paper, and may impress the
>neighbors, but causes problems in the real world. Can you see the engine?
Yes.
>What problems do you have with access?
I can get to the oil and water.
>Can you pull the engine with the
>tranny in the car? Can you pull the tranny with the engine in the car?
Who cares ?
>Even if you don't do you own work it will cost more because time is money
>and the mechanic ain't working free. Heck, even Ferrari has gone back to a
>front engined car! The Miata is pretty easy to get to for most things.
>From another perspective the front engine of the Miata is misleading as it
>is really "mid" front engine layout, like an RX-7...it has nearly perfect
>weight distribution. Obviously I haven't driven an MGF, but I can't
>imagine how the fun factor could be any higher than a Miata.
Oh believe me, it is. The engine is smooth, silent, and very powerful.
The ride is luxuriously soft in town, and firm and stable through the
corners. The seats are more comfortable than most saloons, and there's
more legroom than most BMW's. Oh yeh, did I mention, it's fun.
>Having both old British sports cars, and the Miata, I would say the MX-5 is
>closer to the original vision of the old cars than what the new MGF is.
Yes, the Miata is a beautiful recreation of the MG/Triumph tradition
of old.
>The Japanese cloned all the good points and fixed all the old problems to
>make a nearly "perfect" sports car. I'm not that big a fan of Japanese
>products, but danged if they haven't taught the rest of the world a thing
>or two about making cars!... and I think the US manufacturers are better
>today because of the competition.
Can't disagree, Japanese cars excel on points like reliability and
equipment levels. Of course they usually fall down in the character
department (Miata excepted).
>FWIW, if you want "higher" performance than a Miata...for a comparable
>price to the MGF we in the US of A do have an affordable alternative for
>fun at a higher level...its called a C-5 Corvette... new for 97 and its
>still front engine (but now with a transaxle for more even weight
>distribution).
Like I said, sorry to the US drivers, you can't have an F. I
personally dislike large engined American cars, though the old
Corvettes do look good.
>For about 40,000 US$, it is a LOT of go for the dough. Care
>to compete? My money is on the Vette for racing ...but the Miata wins my
>vote for fun and practicality...and besides, we don't race (wink, wink) on
>the highway, now do we?
MGF VVC is £20K give or take a bit, Miata is £16.5K give or take.
Lotus Elise is £20K give or take. Different price bracket, different
class.
>Casey, I'm looking forward to your response as I am sure you have some
>comeback (of course it will be invalid! you see, you have an MGF and I
>have a Miata) or other! Just trying to get you fired up! Ya'll come back
>now, ya hear?
Odd really, my original post was fairly unbiased, and based on
personal experience, and yet you think that any response would be
invalid.
I think you're missing the point.
The Miata is an excellent recreation of those bygone days of open
topped motoring. It neatly does what the Midget and B failed to do. It
provides fun, low cost, self maintainable, open topped motoring.
The F is generally classed in the 'Supercar' bracket - check any
Supercar Web Page. The Miata is not.
The F provides a different level of comfort, ride, handling, and
performance to the Miata. It doesn't have the direct feel the Miata
has, to some that's a negative, to some a bonus. It is also a
supremely practicle car, and most people have it as their everyday
car.
The original poster was in Sweden, so has a choice from the Miata, the
Elise, the F, the Barchetta, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR, and a whole
host of others (unlike you Americans). He should therefore be given
the whole argument, and allowed to make his own choices.
If I were him I would choose a Miata only if it was a second car, and
he liked messing around with the mechanics. Any of the other cars will
require dealer servicing and repairs, but ALL are superior cars to the
Miata in almost every respect - they are also ALL more expensive.
At the end of the day we obviously want different things in a car. I
want to drive mine, you like to play with engines. I would rather pay
somebody else to get under the bonnet (or seats), you look forward to
something going wrong.
p.s. The F has Snow Chains and a Ski Rack as options - ideal for
Sweden ;-)
Jon Stern
The BBC's Top Gear magazine seemed to think the MX-5 was better to drive
than the Barchetta. However, they preferred the look of the Fiat, feel-
ing that the MX-5 was looking a bit long in the tooth.
Their favourite car in the class was the Lotus Elise.
- Jon S.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Jon Stern
Electronic Systems Group, University of Sheffield, Sheffield S1 3JD. UK
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~eee/esg/staff/jms_prof.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lumumba
Casey Charlton wrote:
> The F is made and supported by Rover, not the Rover of old, but a
> Rover who is owned and heavily influenced by BMW. Anybody doubt BMW's
> reliablility and customer service ? Didn't think so.
Just a thought: from what I hear Rover makes a point of saying that
the MGF was completely developed before BMW entered the scene. Am
I wrong or right? Another thing, how much Honda is there in the
MGF's engine? (I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just
curious)
> >FWIW, if you want "higher" performance than a Miata...for a comparable=
> >price to the MGF we in the US of A do have an affordable alternative f=
or
> >fun at a higher level...its called a C-5 Corvette... new for 97 and it=
s
> >still front engine (but now with a transaxle for more even weight
> >distribution).
> Like I said, sorry to the US drivers, you can't have an F. I
> personally dislike large engined American cars, though the old
> Corvettes do look good.
> =
> >For about 40,000 US$, it is a LOT of go for the dough. Care
> >to compete? My money is on the Vette for racing ...but the Miata wins=
my
> >vote for fun and practicality...and besides, we don't race (wink, win=
k) on
> >the highway, now do we?
> MGF VVC is =A320K give or take a bit, Miata is =A316.5K give or take.
> Lotus Elise is =A320K give or take. Different price bracket, different
> class.
=
> The F is generally classed in the 'Supercar' bracket - check any
> Supercar Web Page. The Miata is not.
> =
> The F provides a different level of comfort, ride, handling, and
> performance to the Miata. It doesn't have the direct feel the Miata
> has, to some that's a negative, to some a bonus. It is also a
> supremely practicle car, and most people have it as their everyday
> car.
> =
> The original poster was in Sweden, so has a choice from the Miata, the
> Elise, the F, the Barchetta, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR, and a whole
> host of others (unlike you Americans). He should therefore be given
> the whole argument, and allowed to make his own choices.
> =
> If I were him I would choose a Miata only if it was a second car, and
> he liked messing around with the mechanics. Any of the other cars will
> require dealer servicing and repairs, but ALL are superior cars to the
> Miata in almost every respect - they are also ALL more expensive.
> =
> At the end of the day we obviously want different things in a car. I
> want to drive mine, you like to play with engines. I would rather pay
> somebody else to get under the bonnet (or seats), you look forward to
> something going wrong.
> =
> p.s. The F has Snow Chains and a Ski Rack as options - ideal for
> Sweden ;-)
> =
> Casey
First of all, it's nice to see a little debate over this subject!
The reason that these three cars were compared in the first place,
is the same that has me choosing between them: they are about =
equally priced (Miata SEK 190 000, Barchetta SEK 195 000, MGF
SEK 207 000). The Corvette would certainly be something else, but
it's a bit expensive at SEK 550 000. All the other cars mentioned
are also out of my financial range, with the Z3 starting at SEK 250 000
in Sweden. ($1 about SEK 7.50 , =A31 about SEK 12). The Elise seems
to be the ultimate car for driving fun, but it isn't your =
everyday car (which I intend to use mine as), and the waiting list
is something like, what, 1.5 years?
As to whether the MGF is a 'supercar', I'm not interested in that
definition, all I want is an affordable car with maximum quality
and driving fun! (I admit that it is way more cool to have 'MG'
on the front than 'Mazda', though).
My impression of the quality of the cars is based on =
1) The Miata is now a 7 year old model with a proven reliablity.
2) The article I referred to in the last posting.
3) What I've read on the Net, especially the miata.net-pages and
this newsgroup, and the MGF BBS and FAQ.
I admit that I have a lot more info on the Miata than on the MGF,
because the MGF is a newer car and the coverage on the Net isn't
very extensive (yet). However, from comparing this newsgroup and
the MGF BBS (OK, maybe not a fair comparison, but all the same)
my impression is this: There are very few, if any, complaints on
the Miata. There don't seem to be any major technical flaws on the
Miata, except for maybe the crankshaft problem on early models.
There are many more complaints on the (reliablity of) the MGF
on the MGF BBS. It's fine if Rover takes its responsibility =
and fixes the faults, but what if they keep occuring after the
warranty has run out? To me, quality is not that one person's
car is flawless, but that a very high percentage of all cars made
are flawless. This is obviously the case with the Miata, but the
question is, is it also true of the MGF? There are a number of
things indicating that it is not so, but it will probably take a
few years before we know for sure. Now you may say that I'm a =
boring person because I don't want buy a new car model only because
it might show up to have a bad reliability five years from now. =
You're right, I definitely wouldn't build my whole case on this!
Snow chains: can't they be fitted to any car? Anyway, I intend
to go for a set of winter wheels. Swedish regulations will require
that during the winter months starting from 1999. Regulations or
not, it makes sense to use them on Swedish winter roads in any case.
And Casey, I hope you don't feel I'm too much against you here,
you still have the chance of convincing me that the MGF is the =
right choice!
Johannes
Lumumba
dj...@triode.net.au wrote:
>Don't they complain about MGF's seat? From almost all road testings
>people complained MGF's seat is CRAP! :) Well, I did test driving to
>satisfy my curiosity and yes, its seat is the far worse than MX-5. I
>replace my MX-5's seat with Sparco Rev competition seat with Bride's
>seat tuning kit. Also I lowered the seat height 40mm and with 330mm
>steering wheel the driving position is much better. In MGF I did the
>test driving I couldn't move the steering wheel as my lap is wedged
>firmly against the bottom of the steering wheel and every time I lift my
>left leg to depress the clutch pedal the whole car swore to the right as
>my left lap hit the steering wheel causing it to turn to the right hand.
>:) Doing toe-n-heel was simply impossible. BTW I'm 6"3 and has average
>leg length.
One test driver complained about the seat being too narrow. Otherwise,
all seats were regarded as good, and the Barchetta's the best.
All testers thought the Miata's seats were a little too short, but
that it didn't matter that much.
>> Barchetta -- Best driving fun. Impractical. For enthusiasts
>> who don't mind the possibly lower quality.
>> MGF -- Best look. Sports car tradition. Stiffest suspension.
>Huh? MGF - best look??? I though MGF is the most boring design in
>recent roadster crops. Yes, Barchetta is bit weird looking but it still
>has so much wecky details to keep its driver amused for long time. :)
... in the eye of the beholder...
>> There was also a short comparison to the slightly more expensive
>> BMW Z3. In short, the verdict was Zzzzzzzzzzz3.
>Nah! Give me M Roadster anytime.
Yes but this wasn't the M. With the 1.8 at $8000 more than the
Miata (in Sweden), I wouldn't even consider the M.
>> I was happy to read this test, since I've been thinking of buying
>> one of these cars. Although I still intend to test drive them all
>> before making a decision, I must say that there have to be very
>> strong arguments for me not to choose the Miata.
>I hate to admit but I'd love to have the Merc Benz SLK, especially in
>metallic silver with red tow tone leather interior - BTW ditch that ugly
>steering wheel with something more tasteful and please give us manual,
>Benz san. :)
That price tag thing again...
> dj
Johannes
Lumumba
Rikki Stevens wrote:
>
> What are some good web pages so I can see and read about these cars
> that are unavailable in the US?
>
> Rik
Check e.g.,
http://www.bighairy.demon.co.uk/MGFAQ/mgfindex.htm
The MGF BBS is at
http://www.ipl.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum18/MG/sub2/cmtlist.html
Johannes
Julian A F Bradbury
Casey Charlton <ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk> writes
>The F is made and supported by Rover, not the Rover of old, but a
>Rover who is owned and heavily influenced by BMW. Anybody doubt BMW's
>reliablility and customer service ? Didn't think so.
BMW had no input into the MGF.
They are about to have plenty input into the Land Rover etc.
Rover are currently implementing Just In Time management so
things may improve more, but there will be many fights to come
for any owners benefit which is of course all well and good.
--
Julian AF Bradbury
Henry Payne
Hey Casey, appreciate you replying - I got carried away with this one, but
read on.
> The problem is that you are comparing the F to previous MG's. It's NOT
> a successor to the B or the RV8. It's a modern sports car that
> competes with the Elise, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR Chimera, etc.
> etc. (p.s. the Miata doesn't fall into the 'Supercar' bracket, unlike
> any of the above).
Lets see, a Z3 a "supercar"? The Boxster? any TVR? We really must get
together on what a supercar is. First, IMHO, it must at a minimum do 300
kph. None of the above make it.
> The F is made and supported by Rover, not the Rover of old, but a
> Rover who is owned and heavily influenced by BMW. Anybody doubt BMW's
> reliablility and customer service ? Didn't think so.
Maybe in jolly old England BMW has no "reliability and customer service"
problems but that isn't the case here. Their OK maybe, but certainly not
at the top of the heap.
> It has a 3000, 6000, and 12000 mile service as standard. All F
> problems I've heard of have been fixed at the 3K service.
>
Right, but they still had problems. How many F's have gone over 100K?
200K? with no problems. Even if you trade the car, someone else is picking
it up right? A car with a reputation for longevity should be worth more.
> >As far as mid engine...IMO this is a negative for anyone interested in
> >doing their own work.
> a) who wants to do their own work ??????
Maybe I'm the only one left in the world, but I do for one. You see Casey,
there are some people in the world known as "car people" We don't like to
just look at the cars, or be seen in them, we like to "tinker" with them.
Get our hands on the parts. One with the machine. Its a Zen thing if you
get my drift. When I drive my machines its my machine. Now obviously
everyone doesn't fit in this category, but as I said, even if you don't do
your own work you will pay more for a vehicle that is difficult (i.e., MID
ENGINE DESIGN) to work on. Another reason I do my own work, is that I use
the money saved to waste on my race car team. From racing I have developed
many friends that own and run garages. Talk to them about difficult cars.
Believe me, you do pay more.
>> b) the fact that any modern engine owes more to computer technology
> than it does to mechanics prevents most 'user' servicing /
> modifications anyway
Oh Yeah? (hows that for a snappy comeback?) While computers do limit what
can be done, they also allow more to be done, i.e., EPROM chips you set up
with a laptop to reconfigure the fuel system mapping. On one hand this is
much easier than the days I had to set the twin SU's or dual DCOE 45 webers
and fiddle with all sorts of jets. The "computer" fuel injection makes it
easier to hop up a car today...you just have to get into the loop.
> >Can you pull the engine with the
> >tranny in the car? Can you pull the tranny with the engine in the car?
> Who cares ?
Well as I said above, you will if you have to pay for the work. If you
trade before the warranty is up, you pay with the decreased trade in value
of the car because the next guy (gal) in line will pick up the tab.
Besides, you missed the main point I was making. Besides the snob appeal
of saying "my MGF is midengine" what is the advantage? The Miata is
essentially a front "midengine" design insofar as the engine is behind the
front axle. Your MGF just has the engine in front of the rear axle so it
is a rear "midengine" as it most certainly is not in the direct "middle" of
the car.
.> Like I said, sorry to the US drivers, you can't have an F. I
> personally dislike large engined American cars, though the old
> Corvettes do look good.
>
> >For about 40,000 US$, it is a LOT of go for the dough. Care
> >to compete?
> MGF VVC is £20K give or take a bit, Miata is £16.5K give or take.
> Lotus Elise is £20K give or take. Different price bracket, different
> class.
Checking the exchange rate today gave 1.62 US$ to the UK pound (sorry, I
can't get that neat L for pounds that you do). That makes a C-5 about
24K...um, 3.5K difference between the Miata and MGF, and 4K difference
between a MGF and a C-5. Oh I see, 500 lbs makes it a different bracket.
Yeah, right! Only from a performance perspective. The C-5 is as
comparable to the F as the F is to the Miata. Oddly enough, we both
agree that we really don't like the big engine Detroit mobiles, but the new
C-5 is really the best ever. Really a world class car. Just a bit
thirsty.
Taking a different approach, lets add a blower, (1.7K installed), Jackson
brakes,(say .75 installed) and we've got a MX-5 that flies for less than
19K so you have 1K to blow on a vacation over here! Since you don't do
your own work you can surely find a local mechanic to do it for you.
> Odd really, my original post was fairly unbiased, and based on
> personal experience, and yet you think that any response would be
> invalid.
Its a joke son, a joke. You need to get out more, see some foghorn
leghorn cartoons so you can tell when your leg is being pulled (yanked?).
I was being a bit brash to get your dander up. Seemed to work.
> The Miata is an excellent recreation of those bygone days of open
> topped motoring. It neatly does what the Midget and B failed to do. It
> provides fun, low cost, self maintainable, open topped motoring.
>
> The F is generally classed in the 'Supercar' bracket - check any
> Supercar Web Page. The Miata is not.
See above...with blower and brakes it will run with the F. Besides, a
webpage does not a "supercar Make" McLaren F1...now THATS a supercar. But
basically, you agree the MX-5 is a great car! Good for you.
>
>The F has Snow Chains and a Ski Rack as options - ideal for
> Sweden ;-)
Casey, you are really reaching now...must be getting desparate. The MX-5
has an optional torsen limited slip...a world class piece of equipment that
costs a lot more than chains. Ski Rack? Which one do you want to put on?
Pleanty available for the 5.
>Of course they (Japanese) cars fall down in the character department
(Miata excepted)
Just to name Mazdas with "character", ever hear of a Mazda Cosmo? The
Cosmo had a 1.0l twin rotor engine in 1967. Still in production today with
the worlds only triple rotor production engine (you know the triple
rotor...the one that Mazda used to win the 24 Hours of LeMans?) How about
the RX-7? 255 HP from 1.3 liters of engine along with a great body,
suspension etc. Nudging into my definition of "supercar"
> The F provides a different level of comfort, ride, handling, and
> performance to the Miata. It doesn't have the direct feel the Miata
> has, to some that's a negative, to some a bonus.
Mazda philosophy was "one with horse and rider"...thats the MX-5 "feel"
> The original poster was in Sweden, so has a choice from the Miata, the
> Elise, the F, the Barchetta, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR, and a whole
> host of others (unlike you Americans). He should therefore be given
> the whole argument, and allowed to make his own choices.
Sure, but its more fun discussing this with you! Seriously, we do have
Lotus here, the Z3 is made here, TVR is available as is the Boxster. Heck,
you can even get a Morgan here! So all we've lost is the F and the
Barchetta. But one must ask, as this is the largest automotive market in
the world, why isn't the F sent over? Afraid of the competion I bet! We
know why the Fiat won't come over. Americans won't buy them because we
know that the FIAT acronym stands for Fix It Again Tony.
>
> If I were him I would choose a Miata only if it was a second car, and
> he liked messing around with the mechanics. Any of the other cars will
> require dealer servicing and repairs, but ALL are superior cars to the
> Miata in almost every respect - they are also ALL more expensive.
>
> At the end of the day we obviously want different things in a car. I
> want to drive mine, you like to play with engines. I would rather pay
> somebody else to get under the bonnet (or seats), you look forward to
> something going wrong.
Now when did I say that? I like to get to my cars to enhance the power
that the factory put there. Its why they made wrenches and brains.
Factory cars are always comprimised to meet as large a target audience as
possible. I have 21 vehicles at house and shop (some are even stored in
the field along with the cattle) and they have one feature in common...I
like them and I work on them. With this number to play with, I don't WANT
any of them to break. But if they do, I would like some level of design
that I can cope with.
My family car is a Taurus SHO (has a 3.0liter 220 HP Yamaha engine)..my
daily driver is an RX-7...my blitzmobile is a rotary rocket, a 1974
Spitfire with a 300 HP rotary in the front and BMW suspension in the rear
(my homebrewed "supercar")...a Ford F250 truck with a 7.5 liter engine gets
me to the race track and at the track I have a Zink Z-10 Formula Ford and a
Zink C Sports Racer with a 12A rotary to race.
I mention this not to brag (actually, it must be a sickness)...but to say I
enjoy my cars and I drive the dickens out of them and to point out some
experience with a variety of machines.
With this smosgasborg of cars, I can frankly say that I get more driving
pleasure from the MX-5 than any of my other motely fleet...and most of them
will outperform the MX-5 in every category except the fun meter. My first
remorse is that I didn't buy one sooner. My second one is that I bought it
for my bride, and only get to play with it part time.
But I do agree with you on one point, and that is that everyone should buy
what best fits their needs as they see it. With the Miata, you have a VERY
large base of customers that just seem to LOVE their cars. I have never
seen this level of loyalty and devotion to what is just a machine after
all. .
Johannes will obviously do what he thinks is best for him...everyone is
different (thank goodness or we'd all think like Casey (Hey...that was
another joke!)). I would ask the question though...how many Miata owners
were sorry they purchased their car? This car is the most dependable and
practical sports car I have ever seen. Conversely, I have NEVER seen a
PRACTICAL mid engine car. The MX-5 is a bit underpowered in stock form,
(IMNSHO) but that can be modified as the funds allow.
It is practical, doesn't leak water, air, or oil and has something magical
that makes it FUN!
Hey Johannes, you be sure to let us know which one (or none of the above)
you ended up with...and both of you come see us some time. We can carry
this discussion on much better with some fruit of the barley in a frosted
mug. With enough bending of elbows it might get real interesting.
Henry Payne - HP Motors (High Performance for the Street or Track)
Clemson, South Carolina USA
hpa...@dpcmail.dukepower.com
"He who dies with the most toys wins"
Klaus Kreider
> The problem is that you are comparing the F to previous MG's. It's NOT
> a successor to the B or the RV8. It's a modern sports car that
> competes with the Elise, the Z3, the Boxster, the TVR Chimera, etc.
> etc. (p.s. the Miata doesn't fall into the 'Supercar' bracket, unlike
> any of the above).
cylinder 5l 240-340hp TVR.
Klaus
Casey Charlton
On the TV show the MGF came top, with the TVR winning if you can put
up with reliability problems. The Elise came third, the Miata way down
the list, and the Boxster came 5th.
Casey
Jon Stern <J.S...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Charlton ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Charlton
Try
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/
http://www.wheels.ca/wow/dec95/mgf.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/drive/content/970228/cover/cover1.html
http://www.carsource.co.uk/rvw/rover2
(Rikki Stevens) wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:33:40 +0100, Lumumba
><cie9...@lustudat.student.lu.se> wrote:
>
>
>>And Casey, I hope you don't feel I'm too much against you here,
>>you still have the chance of convincing me that the MGF is the
>>right choice!
>>
>
>What are some good web pages so I can see and read about these cars
>that are unavailable in the US?
>
>Rik
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Charlton ca...@caseyc.demon.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Charlton
Lumumba <cie9...@lustudat.student.lu.se> wrote:
>Casey Charlton wrote:
>
>> The F is made and supported by Rover, not the Rover of old, but a
>> Rover who is owned and heavily influenced by BMW. Anybody doubt BMW's
>> reliablility and customer service ? Didn't think so.
>
>Just a thought: from what I hear Rover makes a point of saying that
>the MGF was completely developed before BMW entered the scene. Am
>I wrong or right? Another thing, how much Honda is there in the
>MGF's engine? (I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just
>curious)
Honda had no influence on the F, the VVC engine may have been inspired
by them, but not designed by them.
>BIG SNIP>
>First of all, it's nice to see a little debate over this subject!
>The reason that these three cars were compared in the first place,
>is the same that has me choosing between them: they are about
>equally priced (Miata SEK 190 000, Barchetta SEK 195 000, MGF
>SEK 207 000). The Corvette would certainly be something else, but
>it's a bit expensive at SEK 550 000. All the other cars mentioned
>are also out of my financial range, with the Z3 starting at SEK 250 000
>in Sweden. ($1 about SEK 7.50 , £1 about SEK 12). The Elise seems
>to be the ultimate car for driving fun, but it isn't your
>everyday car (which I intend to use mine as), and the waiting list
>is something like, what, 1.5 years?
In the UK the waiting list is less, the cost the same as an F, and
it's still not practicle (but great fun to drive)
>As to whether the MGF is a 'supercar', I'm not interested in that
>definition, all I want is an affordable car with maximum quality
>and driving fun! (I admit that it is way more cool to have 'MG'
>on the front than 'Mazda', though).
>
>My impression of the quality of the cars is based on
>1) The Miata is now a 7 year old model with a proven reliablity.
>2) The article I referred to in the last posting.
>3) What I've read on the Net, especially the miata.net-pages and
>this newsgroup, and the MGF BBS and FAQ.
Get opinions on the F from:
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/
http://www.wheels.ca/wow/dec95/mgf.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/drive/content/970228/cover/cover1.html
http://www.carsource.co.uk/rvw/rover2
>I admit that I have a lot more info on the Miata than on the MGF,
>because the MGF is a newer car and the coverage on the Net isn't
>very extensive (yet). However, from comparing this newsgroup and
>the MGF BBS (OK, maybe not a fair comparison, but all the same)
>my impression is this: There are very few, if any, complaints on
>the Miata. There don't seem to be any major technical flaws on the
>Miata, except for maybe the crankshaft problem on early models.
>There are many more complaints on the (reliablity of) the MGF
>on the MGF BBS.
Actually they tend to be fairly minor, but interactive discussion
makes them more visible. Ask how many people there have had major
problems.
>It's fine if Rover takes its responsibility
>and fixes the faults, but what if they keep occuring after the
>warranty has run out?
Guy Pigounakis (head of MG) will deal with customers personally if
neccessary, and has a very good reputation for making happy customers.
>To me, quality is not that one person's
>car is flawless, but that a very high percentage of all cars made
>are flawless. This is obviously the case with the Miata, but the
>question is, is it also true of the MGF? There are a number of
>things indicating that it is not so, but it will probably take a
>few years before we know for sure.
You don't have too long, the F is to be produced for only 6 years (two
are coming up), and generally speaking they are flawless (my dealer
has just been served a writ by a customer because Rover's QA
department refused to release the F they had just built for
her...sounds like customer concern to me, but she didn't want to wait
another two weeks till the problem had been rectified!)
>Now you may say that I'm a
>boring person because I don't want buy a new car model only because
>it might show up to have a bad reliability five years from now.
>You're right, I definitely wouldn't build my whole case on this!
>
>Snow chains: can't they be fitted to any car? Anyway, I intend
>to go for a set of winter wheels. Swedish regulations will require
>that during the winter months starting from 1999. Regulations or
>not, it makes sense to use them on Swedish winter roads in any case.
Hey, I was joking......
>And Casey, I hope you don't feel I'm too much against you here,
>you still have the chance of convincing me that the MGF is the
>right choice!
It's your choice, and it is a very personal choice.
It just so happened that the mail I read was so biased I thought it
had to be balanced.
What made the difference for me was that the Miata (and the Elise
oddly) both felt like toy cars, the F felt like a solid car.
Read the reviews on all of the cars, drive them all, then make up your
own mind. Those Web pages should give all the info you need on the F..
Casey Charlton
As I'm not one for continuing flames there's only one point I'll
respond to.....
>Lets see, a Z3 a "supercar"? The Boxster? any TVR? We really must get
>together on what a supercar is. First, IMHO, it must at a minimum do 300
>kph. None of the above make it.
Z3 - nope, it's too slow, right image though (the Z3 + M3 engine is a
different matter though)
The Boxster - 0-60 - 6.7 secs, right image, right badge.
TVR Cerbera - 0-60 - 4.2 secs, 170mph, right image, little known
badge.
The F - 0-60 - 7 secs, right image, almost right badge.
The point was not that these cars are a 'substantial' leap from the
Miata in performance (though they all are - Z3 excepted).
The point was they have a different image.
Driving round London Miata's are 10 a penny, and nobody even glances.
Since having the F I have had people drive up along side and comment
on how good the car looks - no Mazda will ever give you that. I have
even watched other drivers nearly crash as they spend too much time
admiring the F, and not enough looking at the road.
p.s. I drive cars, I pay other people to repair/upgrade them. Note,
the only cars listed above that anybody would ever do their own work
on is the Miata and a few older TVR's.
Rick Hunter
In article <336110...@primenet.com>, pv...@primenet.com says...
I guess as a new Z3 owner, & never having owned a Miata (or as we call it
here in Australia - Mx5), I'm a stranger in a strange land. But I do like
cars and I drive a convertible, & hell ain't that the reason we're here?
> In my totally biased opinion, there was no match. Why they bothered in
> comparing three cars with different drivetrain configurations? One FWD,
> one RWD and one mid-engine. Three totally different cars. It would have
> been easier to compare the Fiat to a Lotus Elan (FWD too). The Miata
> should have been compared to other front engine, rwd cars. The MGB is
> much on its own since MR2 departed (corrections, please!)
Each car has it's own character, thus each it's own strengths &
weaknesses. You're right it would have been easier, but in the real world
these cars are all competing against the each other.
> You already scored points with the ZZZZZZZZZZZ3 remark.
tsk tsk
> Don't base your decision just on the magazine test drives. But here's a
> warning: Do NOT, I repeat, Do NOT, test drive a Miata unless you're
> ready to buy it that day. If you drive it and you like it, its going to
> be very frustrating if you cannot buy it on the spot!
>
> It took me two months from my first test drive to the time I got to buy
> one. Two VERY long months!
Not as long as the year I had to wait for my Z3 from the time I put my
deposit on her.
R
dj...@triode.net.au
Lumumba <cie9...@lustudat.student.lu.se> wrote:
> dj...@triode.net.au wrote:
>
> >Don't they complain about MGF's seat? From almost all road testings
> >people complained MGF's seat is CRAP! :) Well, I did test driving to
> >satisfy my curiosity and yes, its seat is the far worse than MX-5. I
> >replace my MX-5's seat with Sparco Rev competition seat with Bride's
> >seat tuning kit. Also I lowered the seat height 40mm and with 330mm
> >steering wheel the driving position is much better. In MGF I did the
> >test driving I couldn't move the steering wheel as my lap is wedged
> >firmly against the bottom of the steering wheel and every time I lift my
> >left leg to depress the clutch pedal the whole car swore to the right as
> >my left lap hit the steering wheel causing it to turn to the right hand.
> >:) Doing toe-n-heel was simply impossible. BTW I'm 6"3 and has average
> >leg length.
>
> One test driver complained about the seat being too narrow. Otherwise,
> all seats were regarded as good, and the Barchetta's the best.
> All testers thought the Miata's seats were a little too short, but
> that it didn't matter that much.
I was referring to the seat height. I didn't like MX-5's seat and I
replaced it with Sparco Rev and lowered the height around 40mm to fix
the problem. When I tried MGF I couldn't shift at all as my lap was
firmly wedged against the bottom of steering wheel. I felt like I was
sitting on the car, not in the car. :)
> >I hate to admit but I'd love to have the Merc Benz SLK, especially in
> >metallic silver with red tow tone leather interior - BTW ditch that ugly
> >steering wheel with something more tasteful and please give us manual,
> >Benz san. :)
>
> That price tag thing again...
Hmm... My dad thinks its price is ok as he was considering 500SL for
some time. :)
dj
--
*** remove the "xxx" from reply-to address before replying ***
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx
Casey Charlton
Klaus Kreider <Klaus....@s4.ffm2.x400.sni.de> wrote:
>Please do not compare a MGF with a 6 cylinder 210hp Porsche or 8
>cylinder 5l 240-340hp TVR.
>
>Klaus
MGF to TVR, nope, not a fair comparison. They are two different cars,
for two different types of driver. They are both still British Sports
cars.
MGF to Porsche Boxster, pretty fair comparison.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
They are both open top roadsters.
Their performance is within fractions of a second of each other (in
fact the F is faster from 50mph to 70mph - overtaking speed)..
They both use Variable Valve Control systems.
They both compete in the same marketplace.
The Boxster is NOT a 911 or a 928.