U.S. vs. Japanese engines
Merlin
Ok ok ok... enough talk about cams and brake fluid and torque size. The
reason why my friends and family buy Japanese car is because of their
track record. Not only are Japanese cars more reliable, they are more fun
to drive. Why are they more reliable? Well, just look at their track
record. Quite a few of the Japanese cars have really high resale value
(like civic and integra as compared to cars like Probes, Mustang, Rams,
etc.) We own a combined total of 6 Japanese cars and they still run with
minimal problems and worries. All my friends drive Japanese or euorpean
cars. Not a problem. A couple of us tried American cars, but it turned
out disasterous, granted there probably some good ones out there but why
take the chance. Also, look on the news. Chevy is recalling this or
recalling that for failing this or that. GM has problem with this or that
or exploding things. It just isn't worth it to take the risk.
Next, of all the cars I looked at, the GSR I got was the most fun to
drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past all
the other cars. I know that there probably is another car out there has
like more hp, more torque, better handling, but the Integra's total
package sold me.
You might be saying that "the engine noise is too loud" or "the door
dings easily." Well, stop crying like a baby and do something about it.
Look at other cars, dynomat it, who cares.
You can say all you want, but the above is why I chose my Integra over
all the other American cars. Don't even talk to me about Saturns. They
are hella ugly and can't perform. That's my view on it. I'm not trying to
bag on American cars. I felt that it is stupid to try to judge a car on a
few items. If you like it buy it. Isn't the point of buying a car about
weighing all the options? Now if there is an American car that has the
reliablity and feel of an Integra but with more hp, better steering, high
resale value, etc. I'd buy it.
Nevets
On 13 Aug 1997 21:25:58 GMT, mh...@taco.engr.ucdavis.edu (Merlin)
wrote:
>Ok ok ok... enough talk about cams and brake fluid and torque size. The
>reason why my friends and family buy Japanese car is because of their
>track record. Not only are Japanese cars more reliable, they are more fun
>to drive. Why are they more reliable? Well, just look at their track
Been a while since I've seen that claim of fun to drive.
>record. Quite a few of the Japanese cars have really high resale value
>(like civic and integra as compared to cars like Probes, Mustang, Rams,
>etc.) We own a combined total of 6 Japanese cars and they still run with
>minimal problems and worries. All my friends drive Japanese or euorpean
Perhaps since all your friends drive Japanese and European you don't
have much experience?
>cars. Not a problem. A couple of us tried American cars, but it turned
>out disasterous, granted there probably some good ones out there but why
>take the chance. Also, look on the news. Chevy is recalling this or
Because some of them are much more fun to drive? Or perhaps they
offer better value?
>recalling that for failing this or that. GM has problem with this or that
>or exploding things. It just isn't worth it to take the risk.
Some might feel the same way with Japanese cars.
>Next, of all the cars I looked at, the GSR I got was the most fun to
>drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past all
>the other cars. I know that there probably is another car out there has
>like more hp, more torque, better handling, but the Integra's total
>package sold me.
The Integra is a fine car.
However, while it is Acura's most popular car, it's still a niche
market car that doesn't appeal to all that many people.
Most people are going to be comparing the Accord with the Camry with
the Taurus with the Intrigue, whatever...
>You might be saying that "the engine noise is too loud" or "the door
>dings easily." Well, stop crying like a baby and do something about it.
>Look at other cars, dynomat it, who cares.
So it's not the perfect car?
Perhaps others have different buying decisions to make.
>You can say all you want, but the above is why I chose my Integra over
>all the other American cars. Don't even talk to me about Saturns. They
>are hella ugly and can't perform. That's my view on it. I'm not trying to
>bag on American cars. I felt that it is stupid to try to judge a car on a
>few items. If you like it buy it. Isn't the point of buying a car about
>weighing all the options? Now if there is an American car that has the
>reliablity and feel of an Integra but with more hp, better steering, high
>resale value, etc. I'd buy it.
Well, the way it sounds, you really didn't look at American cars all
that critically, instead just passed them over. I did the same thing
when I bought my first couple of cars, except with Japanese vehicles.
In the last 3-4 years I started looking at them more seriously, and
ended up buying an Integra back in '95.
Anyway, as per your last point. I agree totally. I like my Integra,
and it offered what I wanted... fun, comfort, styling, features, etc.
Except the steering... It's one of the weakest links in the Integra.
It's precise, but the numbness is rather unpleasant. The majority of
newer American cars, and pretty much all European, have much better
steering.
Well except for the Ford Aspire which I drove as a rental. That was
amazingly bad, but then it's an import. :)
Jack Ma
There is.......hey guys....just look at the SVT Contour by Ford,...or
Ford Contour Sport
give them a try..... Also....97 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
sincerely
JM
Merlin wrote:
> Ok ok ok... enough talk about cams and brake fluid and torque size.
> The
> reason why my friends and family buy Japanese car is because of their
> track record. Not only are Japanese cars more reliable, they are more
> fun
> to drive. Why are they more reliable? Well, just look at their track
> record. Quite a few of the Japanese cars have really high resale value
>
> (like civic and integra as compared to cars like Probes, Mustang,
> Rams,
> etc.) We own a combined total of 6 Japanese cars and they still run
> with
> minimal problems and worries. All my friends drive Japanese or
> euorpean
> cars. Not a problem. A couple of us tried American cars, but it turned
>
> out disasterous, granted there probably some good ones out there but
> why
> take the chance. Also, look on the news. Chevy is recalling this or
> recalling that for failing this or that. GM has problem with this or
> that
> or exploding things. It just isn't worth it to take the risk.
> Next, of all the cars I looked at, the GSR I got was the most fun to
> drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past
> all
> the other cars. I know that there probably is another car out there
> has
> like more hp, more torque, better handling, but the Integra's total
> package sold me.
> You might be saying that "the engine noise is too loud" or "the door
> dings easily." Well, stop crying like a baby and do something about
> it.
> Look at other cars, dynomat it, who cares.
>
Jack Ma
I wish all auto consumers can be like you.....
JM
Nevets wrote:
> On 13 Aug 1997 21:25:58 GMT, mh...@taco.engr.ucdavis.edu (Merlin)
> wrote:
>
> >Ok ok ok... enough talk about cams and brake fluid and torque size.
> The
> >reason why my friends and family buy Japanese car is because of their
>
> >track record. Not only are Japanese cars more reliable, they are more
> fun
> >to drive. Why are they more reliable? Well, just look at their track
>
> Been a while since I've seen that claim of fun to drive.
>
> >record. Quite a few of the Japanese cars have really high resale
> value
> >(like civic and integra as compared to cars like Probes, Mustang,
> Rams,
> >etc.) We own a combined total of 6 Japanese cars and they still run
> with
> >minimal problems and worries. All my friends drive Japanese or
> euorpean
>
> Perhaps since all your friends drive Japanese and European you don't
> have much experience?
>
> >cars. Not a problem. A couple of us tried American cars, but it
> turned
> >out disasterous, granted there probably some good ones out there but
> why
> >take the chance. Also, look on the news. Chevy is recalling this or
>
> Because some of them are much more fun to drive? Or perhaps they
> offer better value?
>
> >recalling that for failing this or that. GM has problem with this or
> that
> >or exploding things. It just isn't worth it to take the risk.
>
> Some might feel the same way with Japanese cars.
>
> >Next, of all the cars I looked at, the GSR I got was the most fun to
> >drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past
> all
> >the other cars. I know that there probably is another car out there
> has
> >like more hp, more torque, better handling, but the Integra's total
> >package sold me.
>
> The Integra is a fine car.
>
> However, while it is Acura's most popular car, it's still a niche
> market car that doesn't appeal to all that many people.
>
> Most people are going to be comparing the Accord with the Camry with
> the Taurus with the Intrigue, whatever...
>
> >You might be saying that "the engine noise is too loud" or "the door
> >dings easily." Well, stop crying like a baby and do something about
> it.
> >Look at other cars, dynomat it, who cares.
>
> So it's not the perfect car?
>
> Perhaps others have different buying decisions to make.
>
> >You can say all you want, but the above is why I chose my Integra
> over
> >all the other American cars. Don't even talk to me about Saturns.
> They
> >are hella ugly and can't perform. That's my view on it. I'm not
> trying to
> >bag on American cars. I felt that it is stupid to try to judge a car
> on a
> >few items. If you like it buy it. Isn't the point of buying a car
> about
> >weighing all the options? Now if there is an American car that has
> the
> >reliablity and feel of an Integra but with more hp, better steering,
> high
> >resale value, etc. I'd buy it.
>
DMR
I would REALLY, REALLY worry about reliability with the Pontiac...1st, GM
does not stand behind its products well ....2nd, the GTP uses a
Supercharger (decreased life of the engine) to achieve its HP. On another
note, neither car is 1/2 as much fun as an Integra. The SVT Contour, IMHO,
is too delicate a car for rough roads. (Yes, I have driven 1...actually
I've driven 3 ;-)
> There is.......hey guys....just look at the SVT Contour by Ford,...or
> Ford Contour Sport give them a try..... Also....97 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
>
> sincerely
> JM
>
>
> Merlin wrote:
>
> > Ok ok ok... enough talk about cams and brake fluid and torque size.
> > The
> > reason why my friends and family buy Japanese car is because of their
> > track record. Not only are Japanese cars more reliable, they are more
> > fun
> > to drive. Why are they more reliable? Well, just look at their track
> > record. Quite a few of the Japanese cars have really high resale value
> >
> > (like civic and integra as compared to cars like Probes, Mustang,
> > Rams,
> > etc.) We own a combined total of 6 Japanese cars and they still run
> > with
> > minimal problems and worries. All my friends drive Japanese or
> > euorpean
> > cars. Not a problem. A couple of us tried American cars, but it turned
> >
> > out disasterous, granted there probably some good ones out there but
> > why
> > take the chance. Also, look on the news. Chevy is recalling this or
> > recalling that for failing this or that. GM has problem with this or
> > that
> > or exploding things. It just isn't worth it to take the risk.
> > Next, of all the cars I looked at, the GSR I got was the most fun to
> > drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past
> > all
> > the other cars. I know that there probably is another car out there
> > has
> > like more hp, more torque, better handling, but the Integra's total
> > package sold me.
> > You might be saying that "the engine noise is too loud" or "the door
> > dings easily." Well, stop crying like a baby and do something about
> > it.
> > Look at other cars, dynomat it, who cares.
> >
DMR
> A supercharger doesn't have near the problems that turbocharging has.
> Now we've certainly all heard horror stories about turbo's, but I
> guess I can't remember any with regards to superchargers.
They still offer more problems than a NA engine.
> Anyway, the GTP uses a supercharged 3.8L V6, which is one of the best
> engines out on the market. It's been around for a long time, and has
> been through quite a bit of refinement over the years.
Drive one and see...it doesn't _FEEL_ like a 240Hp car...hardly feels any
stronger than my Maxima (and with 50 more HP I should KNOW that it's got
more HP)
> I haven't driven either car. Friend of mine bought a GTP, and I was
> fair impressed with the passenger seat, but...
Simply put, I don't think it has the finesse of ANY honda product.. i'd
rather be driving a Civic. I like Honda's interiors (except the Isuzu
prods and 97 Prelude) - they're really quite classy. The interior of my
Accord is 100000x better than that of my maxima (and it's rattle/squeak
free!)
>
> I think I need to drive an SVT Contour, though. I'll let you know if
> it's 1/2 as much fun as my Integra.
Not close. I prefer my Accord V6 (yeah, I know you can't compare
'em)...the Contour is a bit twitchy at high speeds...and they rattle/squeak
QUITE a bit. I don't see the European "tight" feeling that the press
claims these cars offer (guess Ford has been doing some good wining and
dining!). The one I drove was a friend's...now he's a finatic...kept the
car beneath 3500RPMs until the end of breakin, washes the car every other
day...need i go on? anyways, his car has developed several squeaks and
rattles, and he's been back to the dealer for engine work twice. That's
why I'd stick with an integra.
WB36ATL
>Subject: Re: U.S. vs. Japanese engines
>From: "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
>Date: 16 Aug 1997 16:23:05 GMT
>Message-ID: <01bcaa60$0edd55a0$2242accf@default>
>
>
>
>> A supercharger doesn't have near the problems that turbocharging has.
>> Now we've certainly all heard horror stories about turbo's, but I
>> guess I can't remember any with regards to superchargers.
>
>They still offer more problems than a NA engine.
>
>> Anyway, the GTP uses a supercharged 3.8L V6, which is one >>of the
best engines out on the market. It's been around for a >>long time, and
has been through quite a bit of refinement over >>the years.
Ooh, yeah, nice GM crap. Refinement? Like what? Still the same old noisy,
junk since the early 1980's. Even comes with the Alabama warranty:
guaranteed to work until it arrives on your property.
>
>Drive one and see...it doesn't _FEEL_ like a 240Hp car...hardly >feels
any stronger than my Maxima (and with 50 more HP I >should KNOW that it's
got more HP)
A Maxima is a fine car and blows away it's cheap Kmart car counterparts,
the Pontiac Grand Damn It, and the Dodge Intrepid (or entrapped).
>> I haven't driven either car. Friend of mine bought a GTP, and >>I was
fair impressed with the passenger seat, but...
>
>Simply put, I don't think it has the finesse of ANY honda product..
>i'drather be driving a Civic. I like Honda's interiors (except the
>Isuzu prods and 97 Prelude) - they're really quite classy. The >interior
of my Accord is 100000x better than that of my maxima >(and it's
rattle/squeak free!)
>>
>> I think I need to drive an SVT Contour, though. I'll let you >>know
if it's 1/2 as much fun as my Integra.
>
>Not close. I prefer my Accord V6 (yeah, I know you can't >compare
'em)...the Contour is a bit twitchy at high speeds...and >they
rattle/squeak QUITE a bit. I don't see the European "tight" >feeling that
the press claims these cars offer (guess Ford has been >doing some good
wining and dining!). The one I drove was a >friend's...now he's a
finatic...kept the car beneath 3500RPMs until >the end of breakin, washes
the car every other day...need i go >on? anyways, his car has developed
several squeaks and
>rattles, and he's been back to the dealer for engine work twice.
Well, I'd like to say that's an isolated incident. As much as I despise
the cheesy imitations from Chrysler and GM, I must say that Ford is
building a halfway decent product. The Contour I drove last week was
pretty damn nice, and was as quiet a ride as my Accord, and I think it
gives Honda a run for the money, considering how well equipped it comes.
But I would not trade my 1992 Accord EX in for it- I love that damn car.
108K miles, not one problem. Still rides like a brand new car.
I love it when I toast these north Georgia high school dropouts in their
Camaros and Trans Ams on I-285- they get so f**kin' po'ed when some little
"rice grinder" blows their gas guzzling, loud, ugly, paint is four colors
of primer junkyard throwback that they " just dropped a new motor in" for
the XX time!
>That's why I'd stick with an integra.
Pretty good car, fun to drive!
Nevets
On 15 Aug 1997 16:53:25 GMT, "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
wrote:
>I would REALLY, REALLY worry about reliability with the Pontiac...1st, GM
>does not stand behind its products well ....2nd, the GTP uses a
>Supercharger (decreased life of the engine) to achieve its HP. On another
>note, neither car is 1/2 as much fun as an Integra. The SVT Contour, IMHO,
>is too delicate a car for rough roads. (Yes, I have driven 1...actually
>I've driven 3 ;-)
A supercharger doesn't have near the problems that turbocharging has.
Now we've certainly all heard horror stories about turbo's, but I
guess I can't remember any with regards to superchargers.
Anyway, the GTP uses a supercharged 3.8L V6, which is one of the best
engines out on the market. It's been around for a long time, and has
been through quite a bit of refinement over the years.
I haven't driven either car. Friend of mine bought a GTP, and I was
fair impressed with the passenger seat, but...
I think I need to drive an SVT Contour, though. I'll let you know if
Nevets
On 16 Aug 1997 16:23:05 GMT, "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
wrote:
>
>
>> A supercharger doesn't have near the problems that turbocharging has.
>> Now we've certainly all heard horror stories about turbo's, but I
>> guess I can't remember any with regards to superchargers.
>
>They still offer more problems than a NA engine.
Possibly. But would you be making the same claim about VTEC? It
does add great complexity to the engine, and offers more problems than
a non-variable system.
>> Anyway, the GTP uses a supercharged 3.8L V6, which is one of the best
>> engines out on the market. It's been around for a long time, and has
>> been through quite a bit of refinement over the years.
>
>Drive one and see...it doesn't _FEEL_ like a 240Hp car...hardly feels any
>stronger than my Maxima (and with 50 more HP I should KNOW that it's got
>more HP)
I just checked Edmunds web page, and they show the Grand Prix GT
doing 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. This is the normally aspirated 195 hp
model of the 3.8L, coupled to a 4 speed Auto.
The Nissan Maxima with it's V6, which is also a very nice V6, does
0-60 in 7.9 seconds, according to the edmunds page, and 6.9 when
coupled to a 5 speed.
Now, C/D shows the GTP doing 0-60 in 6.8 seconds.
So, I guess your creding Pontiacs refinement.
>> I haven't driven either car. Friend of mine bought a GTP, and I was
>> fair impressed with the passenger seat, but...
>
>Simply put, I don't think it has the finesse of ANY honda product.. i'd
>rather be driving a Civic. I like Honda's interiors (except the Isuzu
>prods and 97 Prelude) - they're really quite classy. The interior of my
>Accord is 100000x better than that of my maxima (and it's rattle/squeak
>free!)
It's been a month or two since I last sat in that GTP, but I guess I
have to disagree. The interior was much nicer than my Integra.
This was a loaded model with leather seats, and they were really
quite nice.
Now if your talking the previous generation Grand Prix, you have no
argument from me, I thought the car sucked. I think perhaps your
getting confused a bit in model years?
>> I think I need to drive an SVT Contour, though. I'll let you know if
>> it's 1/2 as much fun as my Integra.
>
>Not close. I prefer my Accord V6 (yeah, I know you can't compare
>'em)...the Contour is a bit twitchy at high speeds...and they rattle/squeak
>QUITE a bit. I don't see the European "tight" feeling that the press
>claims these cars offer (guess Ford has been doing some good wining and
>dining!). The one I drove was a friend's...now he's a finatic...kept the
>car beneath 3500RPMs until the end of breakin, washes the car every other
>day...need i go on? anyways, his car has developed several squeaks and
>rattles, and he's been back to the dealer for engine work twice. That's
>why I'd stick with an integra.
I'm not much of a Ford fan, as I think they're the worst of the big
three in quality, personally speaking.
But I did really like the Ford Contour SE I test drove. The interior
and exterior refinement wasn't nearly as good as that of GM or
Chrysler, but the drivetrain and suspension seemed top notch.
That was almost two years ago, and Ford has done quite a bit of
restyling since then. Again, I should go and try a SVT and see how
it's been improved.
Anyway, if you want to talk about squeaks and rattles, we have no
further to go than my Integra. Although I don't notice them when the
radio is up.
DMR
Nevets <she...@yuck.net> wrote in article
<33fa2ac5....@news.visi.com>...
> On 16 Aug 1997 16:23:05 GMT, "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Possibly. But would you be making the same claim about VTEC? It
> does add great complexity to the engine, and offers more problems than
> a non-variable system.
Not really since it's not forcing induction...it's really just a
cam-profile change. As long as the engine management is designed to deal
with this cam change I don't think wear/tear will be a real issue.
> >Drive one and see...it doesn't _FEEL_ like a 240Hp car...hardly feels
any
> >stronger than my Maxima (and with 50 more HP I should KNOW that it's got
> >more HP)
>
> I just checked Edmunds web page, and they show the Grand Prix GT
> doing 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. This is the normally aspirated 195 hp
> model of the 3.8L, coupled to a 4 speed Auto.
I think Edmund's facts are wrong. C&D and Motortrend got 0-60s in the late
6s for the GTP model, which (if memory serves me correctly) came equipped
with a 240SAE NET HP 3800 Series II 24-valve engine.
>
> The Nissan Maxima with it's V6, which is also a very nice V6, does
> 0-60 in 7.9 seconds, according to the edmunds page, and 6.9 when
> coupled to a 5 speed.
Exactly: even though the GTP is somewhat hobbled by its auto, there's not
much of a "power rush"...I've driven BMWs that had HP in that proximity
(240HP) and believe me, I _KNEW_ they were more powerful than my Max
because of the way they glued me to the seat.
>
> Now, C/D shows the GTP doing 0-60 in 6.8 seconds.
>
> So, I guess your creding Pontiacs refinement.
Refinement? Where?
>
> >> I haven't driven either car. Friend of mine bought a GTP, and I was
> >> fair impressed with the passenger seat, but...
> >
> >Simply put, I don't think it has the finesse of ANY honda product.. i'd
> >rather be driving a Civic. I like Honda's interiors (except the Isuzu
> >prods and 97 Prelude) - they're really quite classy. The interior of my
> >Accord is 100000x better than that of my maxima (and it's rattle/squeak
> >free!)
>
> It's been a month or two since I last sat in that GTP, but I guess I
> have to disagree. The interior was much nicer than my Integra.
Well, you can't compare a leather-equipped vehicle to a non-leather
vehicle (really not fair) - but look at the stitching of the leather:
cheap. Dash materials: cheap. Gauges: cheap. They scream $16k
pontiac..not $25k pontiac.
>
> This was a loaded model with leather seats, and they were really
> quite nice.
I found them soft and lacking support.
>
> Now if your talking the previous generation Grand Prix, you have no
> argument from me, I thought the car sucked. I think perhaps your
> getting confused a bit in model years?
Nope. 97 Grand Prix GTP, 240HP 0-60 in 6.8...same car ;-) Trust me, your
teg is way better.
> >Not close. I prefer my Accord V6 (yeah, I know you can't compare
> >'em)...the Contour is a bit twitchy at high speeds...and they
rattle/squeak
> >QUITE a bit. I don't see the European "tight" feeling that the press
> >claims these cars offer (guess Ford has been doing some good wining and
> >dining!). The one I drove was a friend's...now he's a finatic...kept
the
> >car beneath 3500RPMs until the end of breakin, washes the car every
other
> >day...need i go on? anyways, his car has developed several squeaks and
> >rattles, and he's been back to the dealer for engine work twice. That's
> >why I'd stick with an integra.
>
> I'm not much of a Ford fan, as I think they're the worst of the big
> three in quality, personally speaking.
Really? I'd put 'em above GM and Chrystler...but I haven't owned ANY in a
while, so I really have no grounds to compare.
>
> But I did really like the Ford Contour SE I test drove. The interior
> and exterior refinement wasn't nearly as good as that of GM or
> Chrysler, but the drivetrain and suspension seemed top notch.
I've got no complaints about the Contour's drivetrain: even the 4-banger is
quite nice. It's the little interior refinements that are needed.
> That was almost two years ago, and Ford has done quite a bit of
> restyling since then. Again, I should go and try a SVT and see how
> it's been improved.
It's a much sportier car than the SE, but it's not a very good daily
driver...it has a harsher ride (not important to some, but important to me
;-) and I think it is more prone to problems.
>
> Anyway, if you want to talk about squeaks and rattles, we have no
> further to go than my Integra. Although I don't notice them when the
> radio is up.
I'm really _VERY_ surprised. Integras are known for being tight, and
rattle/squeak free. My Accord has been spiritedly driven ;-) for over 40k
worth of miles, and it's as good as new: not a rattle or squeak is
perceptible..even when I'm blasting down the highway at 120+. To me, the
faster it goes, the better the driving experience gets: the car feels
secure at 120 MPH...I don't think I could say the same for many other cars
in its class (lord knows not my maxima! ;-)
Nevets
On 17 Aug 1997 01:59:46 GMT, "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
wrote:
>
>
>Nevets <she...@yuck.net> wrote in article
>> On 16 Aug 1997 16:23:05 GMT, "DMR" <**Remove_This_Part**oh...@usa.net>
>> wrote:
>> Possibly. But would you be making the same claim about VTEC? It
>> does add great complexity to the engine, and offers more problems than
>> a non-variable system.
>
>Not really since it's not forcing induction...it's really just a
>cam-profile change. As long as the engine management is designed to deal
>with this cam change I don't think wear/tear will be a real issue.
But couldn't the same be said about supercharging?
>> >Drive one and see...it doesn't _FEEL_ like a 240Hp car...hardly feels
>any
>> >stronger than my Maxima (and with 50 more HP I should KNOW that it's got
>> >more HP)
>>
>> I just checked Edmunds web page, and they show the Grand Prix GT
>> doing 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. This is the normally aspirated 195 hp
>> model of the 3.8L, coupled to a 4 speed Auto.
>
>I think Edmund's facts are wrong. C&D and Motortrend got 0-60s in the late
>6s for the GTP model, which (if memory serves me correctly) came equipped
>with a 240SAE NET HP 3800 Series II 24-valve engine.
That could be. I don't know where Edmunds got the result. The only
reason I went looking there was because C/D had not figures for the
Maxima.
>> The Nissan Maxima with it's V6, which is also a very nice V6, does
>> 0-60 in 7.9 seconds, according to the edmunds page, and 6.9 when
>> coupled to a 5 speed.
>
>Exactly: even though the GTP is somewhat hobbled by its auto, there's not
>much of a "power rush"...I've driven BMWs that had HP in that proximity
>(240HP) and believe me, I _KNEW_ they were more powerful than my Max
>because of the way they glued me to the seat.
Ok, so we're using a buttometer in our measurements.
>>
>> Now, C/D shows the GTP doing 0-60 in 6.8 seconds.
>>
>> So, I guess your crediting Pontiacs refinement.
>
>Refinement? Where?
Well, you're saying that Pontiac has built a car with outstanding
performance, that doesn't make you feel like your in a rocket sled.
This is the type of refinement that people in this luxury market
segment are looking for.
>> It's been a month or two since I last sat in that GTP, but I guess I
>> have to disagree. The interior was much nicer than my Integra.
>
>Well, you can't compare a leather-equipped vehicle to a non-leather
>vehicle (really not fair) - but look at the stitching of the leather:
>cheap. Dash materials: cheap. Gauges: cheap. They scream $16k
>pontiac..not $25k pontiac.
I guess I wasn't talking about the seat fabric, obviously that's
different. I was referring to the dash and other interior components.
Now, granted, I was comparing this to my Integra. The Integra has a
notoriously poor quality interior. Well, except for the seat fabric.
>> This was a loaded model with leather seats, and they were really
>> quite nice.
>
>I found them soft and lacking support.
I didn't. I did find the previous generation Grand Prix that way.
That was one of the first things I noticed in this new GTP... Wow,
this isn't at all like the previous generation.
>> I'm not much of a Ford fan, as I think they're the worst of the big
>> three in quality, personally speaking.
>
>Really? I'd put 'em above GM and Chrystler...but I haven't owned ANY in a
>while, so I really have no grounds to compare.
I've owned one, a '78 Mustang. Worst car I've ever owned, but then,
that was over 10 years ago, and that car is 20 years out of date by
today's standards. i.e. it was before quality was even in the top 100
list at Ford. :)
It could be I'm still holding biases based on that model, along with
the variety of Escorts and Tempo's I've driven along the years.
>> But I did really like the Ford Contour SE I test drove. The interior
>> and exterior refinement wasn't nearly as good as that of GM or
>> Chrysler, but the drivetrain and suspension seemed top notch.
>
>I've got no complaints about the Contour's drivetrain: even the 4-banger is
>quite nice. It's the little interior refinements that are needed.
Agreed. I thought the fit and finish of the Contour was poor, not at
all up to the standards of GM and Chrysler, or most of the imports.
But I think a lot of that was from the poor choices of interior
colors... Red, Blue? Huh?
Again, this was two years ago I looked at them.
>> That was almost two years ago, and Ford has done quite a bit of
>> restyling since then. Again, I should go and try a SVT and see how
>> it's been improved.
>
>It's a much sportier car than the SE, but it's not a very good daily
>driver...it has a harsher ride (not important to some, but important to me
>;-) and I think it is more prone to problems.
I don't think it's really intended as a daily driver.
>> Anyway, if you want to talk about squeaks and rattles, we have no
>> further to go than my Integra. Although I don't notice them when the
>> radio is up.
>
>I'm really _VERY_ surprised. Integras are known for being tight, and
>rattle/squeak free. My Accord has been spiritedly driven ;-) for over 40k
>worth of miles, and it's as good as new: not a rattle or squeak is
>perceptible..even when I'm blasting down the highway at 120+. To me, the
>faster it goes, the better the driving experience gets: the car feels
>secure at 120 MPH...I don't think I could say the same for many other cars
>in its class (lord knows not my maxima! ;-)
Trust me, I'm very surprised as well. It wasn't at all this bad
during the test drive.
I've ridden in a *LOT* of '90-93 model Accords, and they have been
very tight. It saddens me to ride in an Accord, and then have to go
back to my rattletrap.
But then the Accord is built in America, whereas the Integra comes
from Japan. That probably explains the lack of build quality. :)
Although, I have seriously been giving consideration to trading in my
Integra and buying a new one. I want to see what the '98 has to
offer, if it's as ugly as the Japanese model I might get a '97.
But if the '98's offer fixed airbag systems, it might be worth
considering just from a safety standpoint.
Of course part of that depends on how much my current Integra is
worth. It recently suffered a lot of body work. :( Although, the
body work did seem to fix a few squeaks in the front suspension! :)
Anyway, I think saying I would considering buying another Integra to
replace the current one, does say quite a bit.
satyr
On Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:51:31 GMT, she...@yuck.net (Nevets) wrote:
>>They still offer more problems than a NA engine.
>
> Possibly. But would you be making the same claim about VTEC? It
>does add great complexity to the engine, and offers more problems than
>a non-variable system.
I have never heard of anyone having a problem with the VTEC. And the
Consumer Reports survey indicates that the Honda cars commonly
equipped with VTEC engines have top notch engine reliability, better
than any Pontiac.
>
> I'm not much of a Ford fan, as I think they're the worst of the big
>three in quality, personally speaking.
Pay your money and take your choice. All three have models ranging
from mediocre to dreadful. Only exceptions are the Le Sabre and the
Saturn which are slightly better than mediocre.
DMR
> >Not really since it's not forcing induction...it's really just a
> >cam-profile change. As long as the engine management is designed to
deal
> >with this cam change I don't think wear/tear will be a real issue.
>
> But couldn't the same be said about supercharging?
>
Not really, SCing is forced-induction...it's a different principle
entirely.
> >Exactly: even though the GTP is somewhat hobbled by its auto, there's
not
> >much of a "power rush"...I've driven BMWs that had HP in that proximity
> >(240HP) and believe me, I _KNEW_ they were more powerful than my Max
> >because of the way they glued me to the seat.
>
> Ok, so we're using a buttometer in our measurements.
Well, let's face it: how a car feels is just as important as its actual
performance. If that weren't the case, people wouldn't buy miatas, CRXs,
etc. - what I'm saying is that I expected a much better driving experience
from a 240HP car.
> >Refinement? Where?
>
> Well, you're saying that Pontiac has built a car with outstanding
> performance, that doesn't make you feel like your in a rocket sled.
> This is the type of refinement that people in this luxury market
> segment are looking for.
I suppose...but the GTP is really supposed to be an enthusiasts car: it has
an even firmer suspension than the GT.
> I guess I wasn't talking about the seat fabric, obviously that's
> different. I was referring to the dash and other interior components.
I wasn't really that impressed with them.
> Now, granted, I was comparing this to my Integra. The Integra has a
> notoriously poor quality interior. Well, except for the seat fabric.
Funny, I've never really heard any complaints about the interior (aside
from some door-panel probs).
> I didn't. I did find the previous generation Grand Prix that way.
> That was one of the first things I noticed in this new GTP... Wow,
> this isn't at all like the previous generation.
It's definitely 10000x better than the previous gen, but I still don't
think it's up to the Japanese standard.
> >Really? I'd put 'em above GM and Chrystler...but I haven't owned ANY in
a
> >while, so I really have no grounds to compare.
> I've owned one, a '78 Mustang. Worst car I've ever owned, but then,
> that was over 10 years ago, and that car is 20 years out of date by
> today's standards. i.e. it was before quality was even in the top 100
> list at Ford. :)
Yeah, a bad experience can ruin a car for you: I'll never buy a Volvo
because my 760GLE was a time-bomb...sad, because Volvo had a damn good
name.
> Agreed. I thought the fit and finish of the Contour was poor, not at
> all up to the standards of GM and Chrysler, or most of the imports.
I would say the fit-and-finish are better than in a Cirrus...but nowhere
near accord/camry levels.
> But I think a lot of that was from the poor choices of interior
> colors... Red, Blue? Huh?
I've never understood that either: why do so many of the domestic firms
make those DAMN UGLY interior colors...ugh...I could never drive a car with
a red interior (save a Porsche 911 Turbo...on those cars, it doesn't matter
WHAT the interior looks like. ;-)
> >It's a much sportier car than the SE, but it's not a very good daily
> >driver...it has a harsher ride (not important to some, but important to
me
> >;-) and I think it is more prone to problems.
>
> I don't think it's really intended as a daily driver.
Well, it should be: most people that are going to buy it are going to use
it as a DD...
> Trust me, I'm very surprised as well. It wasn't at all this bad
> during the test drive.
I believe you.
> I've ridden in a *LOT* of '90-93 model Accords, and they have been
> very tight. It saddens me to ride in an Accord, and then have to go
> back to my rattletrap.
Hmm...did you buy yours used? Was it in accidents? I don't have TOO much
experience with Integras, but the ones I've driven were nicely built.
> But then the Accord is built in America, whereas the Integra comes
> from Japan. That probably explains the lack of build quality. :)
HAHAHAHA
> Anyway, I think saying I would considering buying another Integra to
> replace the current one, does say quite a bit.
>
Says that those cars are DAMN fun to drive. ;-) And they are.
FiveptO 89
>> Merlin wrote:
>the GSR I got was the most fun to
>> > drive. It was fun to whip it around corners and downshift to zip past
>> > all
>> > the other cars.
hehehe...try downshifting in that jap crap and passing my in my 5.0...i
dare ya! guy i know has a brand new Integra GSR...puts all kinds of stuff
into it, new intake, wheels, lowering kit, all kinds of goodies...still
only runs high 14s at the track...with the kind of money he put into that
car, i could by a 93 Cobra, and blow him away...either that, or keep my
car, and REALLY blow him away : )
FiveptO 89
>I love it when I toast these north Georgia high school dropouts in their
>Camaros and Trans Ams
people live in North Georgia?