Who Invented Variable Valve Timing (vtec)?
Philnita
David Malinovsky wrote:
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
Tezcatlipoca
-=Tezcatlipoca=-
nonsense
David Malinovsky wrote in message <7at4gb$f...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
David Malinovsky
Gambit
sorry for being confrontational, but what difference does it make if lada,
skoda or even the might of Yugo came up with vvt systems, Honda had to spend
100's of millions developing it and placing it on the market for us to
enjoy, in the crx and integra in 1989. no one else had the balls to do it -
did they????
Russell K. Lindberg
Kurt Tappe
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
There's a long, exhaustive report on variable valve timing on page 10
or so of the March 1999 Sport Compact Car. Not only does it talk about
the history of the idea, but about likely future incarnations,
including BMW's solenoid-based system.
-Kurt
Mike Kohlbrenner
>
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
Which question are we to answer -- the one in the subject line or
the one in the body?
Honda came up with VTEC (subject line...) and someone else
came up with the first VVT system.
How's that? ;^/
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
sama...@my-dejanews.com
late 50s by a company called DAF, they couldn't make it work very good so
they filed it away, Honda bought it a few years back and perfected it for use
in the Civic, it still can't be placed under high loads. As to the origins of
VVT I am not sure, I am sure that it has been on the minds of companies for a
long time prior to Honda, but Honda was the first to use Variable valve
Timing and Electronic lift Control on a production car. Since then only 2
companies have been able to come up with anything that has made it to the
market that changes the lift/duration of the valvetrain, BMW and Nissan. BMWs
will be coming to the usa at some point in the future and nissan's version is
apparently on the g20. Changing the valve timing is easy, but getting the
lift and duration to change too is harder and Honda was the first one to do
that on a production model. Read the article in the SCC for march of 99.
Actually someone ought to scan that shit and post it whenever someone says
that all of these other companies are using the same tech as vtec. It has
taken 8 years for other car companies to figure out how to change the
lift/duration while honda has been refining it and getting over 100hp/liter
on a NA engine and with the S2000 they will be getting over 120hp/liter and
still have a lev (low emissions vehicle) that is NA. -- Sam
"David Malinovsky" <dma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
sama...@my-dejanews.com
"David Malinovsky" <dma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
>
>
put the acronym VTEC. The full version of VTEC is 'Variable valve Timing and
Electronic lift Control' using the capitolised letters for the acronym. VVT is
just that variable valve timing, but VTEC is much more, read up.
--
Sam
Tezcatlipoca
David Malinovsky <dma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7avj4t$9...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
|Sorry about the confusion in the subject line. The answer is Alfa Romeo.
So what do I win? <G>
-=Tezcatlipoca=-
Jafir El-Kurd
> companies have been able to come up with anything that has made it to the
> market that changes the lift/duration of the valvetrain, BMW and Nissan. BMWs
Uhh....what about lexus?
nonsense
>
>-=Tezcatlipoca=-
a brownie button
David Malinovsky
believe on the 75 Twin Spark (1985) It might have been used on the earlier
Alfettas but the 75 is the earliest reference I could find.
Honda was the first to control the valve timing by electronics, and the
first to use it on a four valve per cylinder engine. The Alfa engine did
generate some impressive HP numbers at the time
2.0L L4 150HP most two liter engines at the time generated about 100-120
Somebody answered GM. No, but they did invent the airbag.
Lee Cao
Mike Kohlbrenner wrote:
>
> David Malinovsky wrote:
> >
> > A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> > manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> > answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
>
> Which question are we to answer -- the one in the subject line or
> the one in the body?
>
> Honda came up with VTEC (subject line...) and someone else
> came up with the first VVT system.
Yea... difference being that VTEC includes variable timing
*AND* lift. But yea, the original question leaves some
holes for debating. ;)
>
> How's that? ;^/
>
> --
> Mike Kohlbrenner
> <kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
Lee Cao
dhol...@hotmail.com
"David Malinovsky" <dma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
>
>
Toyota had TVIS in their '85 MR2s
Mike Kohlbrenner
>
> ...The full version of VTEC is 'Variable valve Timing and
> Electronic lift Control'
Sam,
You gotta' get it right if you are going to be a "REAL" Honda lover ;^/
Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control
I know it sounds stupid, but that is what Honda calls it. I always
thought a comma after "lift" would make sense, or the word "with"...
Mike Kohlbrenner
sama...@my-dejanews.com
lexus and toyota have what is called VVTi that is a system that only varies
the valve timing, and NOT the lift/duration of the valves. VTEC as a system
has been eunique on the market for some 8 years now. if you compair the 2
systems and have any knowledge about the workings of an internal combustion
engine it should be rather simple to understand. Variable Valve Timing (VVT)
only changes the valve timing, while Variable valve Timing and Electronic
lift Control (VTEC) varies not only the valve timing, but the lift and
duration of the valves. -- Sam
sama...@my-dejanews.com
--
Sam
"Tezcatlipoca" <iget...@hempseed.com> wrote:
>
> David Malinovsky <dma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:7avj4t$9...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> |Sorry about the confusion in the subject line. The answer is Alfa Romeo.
>
> So what do I win? <G>
>
> -=Tezcatlipoca=-
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Chris Matthaei
>sama...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> ...The full version of VTEC is 'Variable valve Timing and
>> Electronic lift Control'
>
>Sam,
>
>You gotta' get it right if you are going to be a "REAL" Honda lover ;^/
>
>Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control
>
>I know it sounds stupid, but that is what Honda calls it. I always
>thought a comma after "lift" would make sense, or the word "with"...
Where is "lift" in VTEC? Maybe it should be VTLEC. :)
Chris
Jafir El-Kurd
sama...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Jafir El-Kurd <hemi...@specent.com> wrote:
> > > Timing and Electronic lift Control on a production car. Since then only 2
> > > companies have been able to come up with anything that has made it to the
> > > market that changes the lift/duration of the valvetrain, BMW and Nissan.
> BMWs
> >
> > Uhh....what about lexus?
> >
>
> lexus and toyota have what is called VVTi that is a system that only varies
> the valve timing, and NOT the lift/duration of the valves. VTEC as a system
> has been eunique on the market for some 8 years now. if you compair the 2
> systems and have any knowledge about the workings of an internal combustion
> engine it should be rather simple to understand. Variable Valve Timing (VVT)
> only changes the valve timing, while Variable valve Timing and Electronic
> lift Control (VTEC) varies not only the valve timing, but the lift and
> duration of the valves. -- Sam
Yeah, but even so, it still allows toyota to get 300 horsepower out of
4.0 liters. (with out a blower)
Stilian Elenkov
Or BMW 321hp out of the 3.2L I6 (VTEC only gets you 290hp from the same
displacement engine in the NSX) and 440hp out of a 5.0L V8.
The first VVT (no lift, but with duration control) system was done by
Alfa Romeo and later Lancia in the late 70s.
Stilian
Mike Kohlbrenner
>
> "David Malinovsky" <dma...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> > A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> > manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> > answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
>
> or so of the March 1999 Sport Compact Car. Not only does it talk about
> the history of the idea,
I went out and bought this stupid magazine just to read this article.
The information they presented was good in that they described the
workings of a few systems in a fairly understandable manner.
However, it was hardly exhaustive -- I found it to be incomplete. It
was a totally U.S.-centric point of view, giving Honda credit for the
"first" production system. I don't know if the Italian versions made
it here, but they predated the Honda system by about a decade. No
mention was even made of these.
Also, no mention was made of Mitsubishi's MIVEC system, which is
similar to VTEC, presumably because it isn't available in the U.S.
I don't recall now if BMW's VANOS system was even mentioned. Being
similar to Porsche's Vario-Cam, I am not surprised, but I am still
waiting for a good description of how they pull off their Double
VANOS (both intake and exhaust variability).
Overall, it was a real "donut hole" situation -- the fat juicy part
of the donut was quite good, but there was the big hole missing in
the middle...
> but about likely future incarnations, including BMW's solenoid-based
> system.
That was pretty interesting -- I'll give them credit for that.
Mike Kohlbrenner
> ...
> The first VVT (no lift, but with duration control) system was done by
> Alfa Romeo and later Lancia in the late 70s.
Do you know anywhere I can get more info on the workings of these
systems?
Stilian Elenkov
I do not have the reference at hand, but remember that European Car
magazine had a few articles about these. I also remember a 2.0 DOHC I6
comparison with and w/o VVT. The VVT one managed to pump 230hp in 1977
while the non VVT one did 180hp - still pretty good though, but still @
fairly high rpms aned no emissions control. Also the UK mag Car and the
German MOT ( you need to know some German) had articles about VVT
development including most of the current systems and future
development. The BMW solenoid system looked pretty cool. Siemens is also
working on piezzo valves which are electrically actuated.
In a few years we might have electrically controlled lift and duration
systems making a lot of power and decent torque from small engines and
with almost no emissions.
Stilian
sama...@my-dejanews.com
Jafir El-Kurd <hemi...@specent.com> wrote:
>
>
> sama...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Jafir El-Kurd <hemi...@specent.com> wrote:
> > > > Timing and Electronic lift Control on a production car. Since then only
2
> > > > companies have been able to come up with anything that has made it to
the
> > > > market that changes the lift/duration of the valvetrain, BMW and Nissan.
> > BMWs
> > >
> > > Uhh....what about lexus?
> > >
> >
> > lexus and toyota have what is called VVTi that is a system that only varies
> > the valve timing, and NOT the lift/duration of the valves. VTEC as a system
> > has been eunique on the market for some 8 years now. if you compair the 2
> > systems and have any knowledge about the workings of an internal combustion
> > engine it should be rather simple to understand. Variable Valve Timing (VVT)
> > only changes the valve timing, while Variable valve Timing and Electronic
> > lift Control (VTEC) varies not only the valve timing, but the lift and
> > duration of the valves. -- Sam
>
> Yeah, but even so, it still allows toyota to get 300 horsepower out of
> 4.0 liters. (with out a blower)
>
no doubt, they are both very enginious (sp?) systems. From my limited reading
about the BMW solution that seems to be an awesome system too.
--
Sam
sama...@my-dejanews.com
bad Honda lover...
--
Sam
Mike Kohlbrenner <No.Ju...@My.Mailbox> wrote:
> sama...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > ...The full version of VTEC is 'Variable valve Timing and
> > Electronic lift Control'
>
> Sam,
>
> You gotta' get it right if you are going to be a "REAL" Honda lover ;^/
>
> Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control
>
> I know it sounds stupid, but that is what Honda calls it. I always
> thought a comma after "lift" would make sense, or the word "with"...
>
> --
> Mike Kohlbrenner
> <kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
sama...@my-dejanews.com
>
>
> Mike Kohlbrenner wrote:
> >
> > Stilian Elenkov wrote:
> > > ...
> > > The first VVT (no lift, but with duration control) system was done by
> > > Alfa Romeo and later Lancia in the late 70s.
> >
> > Do you know anywhere I can get more info on the workings of these
> > systems?
> >
> > Mike Kohlbrenner
> > <kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
>
> magazine had a few articles about these. I also remember a 2.0 DOHC I6
> comparison with and w/o VVT. The VVT one managed to pump 230hp in 1977
> while the non VVT one did 180hp - still pretty good though, but still @
> fairly high rpms aned no emissions control. Also the UK mag Car and the
> German MOT ( you need to know some German) had articles about VVT
> development including most of the current systems and future
> development. The BMW solenoid system looked pretty cool. Siemens is also
> working on piezzo valves which are electrically actuated.
> In a few years we might have electrically controlled lift and duration
> systems making a lot of power and decent torque from small engines and
> with almost no emissions.
>
> Stilian
>
the biggest problem with the whole solenoid thing (and I supose you know this,
but there are probably a few that don't) the solenoid is real hard on the
valves and valve seats. there are 2 positions with the solenoids right now,
open and closed, they use a electo magnet to open and a spring to close, the
problem here is that you don't have anyway to dampen the decent of the valve
back down on the head, so it slams really hard and wears out very quickly. If
they can make a system that alows the valve to act like it is riding on a cam
and close slower it would be a great system, but alas it is smoke break time.
laters :)
--
Sam
sama...@my-dejanews.com
Stilian Elenkov
> > I do not have the reference at hand, but remember that European Car
> > magazine had a few articles about these. I also remember a 2.0 DOHC I6
> > comparison with and w/o VVT. The VVT one managed to pump 230hp in 1977
> > while the non VVT one did 180hp - still pretty good though, but still @
> > fairly high rpms aned no emissions control. Also the UK mag Car and the
> > German MOT ( you need to know some German) had articles about VVT
> > development including most of the current systems and future
> > development. The BMW solenoid system looked pretty cool. Siemens is also
> > working on piezzo valves which are electrically actuated.
> > In a few years we might have electrically controlled lift and duration
> > systems making a lot of power and decent torque from small engines and
> > with almost no emissions.
> >
> > Stilian
> >
>
> the biggest problem with the whole solenoid thing (and I supose you know this,
> but there are probably a few that don't) the solenoid is real hard on the
> valves and valve seats. there are 2 positions with the solenoids right now,
> open and closed, they use a electo magnet to open and a spring to close, the
> problem here is that you don't have anyway to dampen the decent of the valve
> back down on the head, so it slams really hard and wears out very quickly. If
> they can make a system that alows the valve to act like it is riding on a cam
> and close slower it would be a great system, but alas it is smoke break time.
> laters :)
> --
> Sam
... and the obscene amount of current needed to actuate these and many
other things, but they are working on it and sooner than later we will
have it available...
Stilian
C. Patterson
have to be very well designed and nearly bullet proof, but it just might
work.
sama...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7b6vln$ql9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>the biggest problem with the whole solenoid thing (and I supose you know
this,
>but there are probably a few that don't) the solenoid is real hard on the
>valves and valve seats. there are 2 positions with the solenoids right now,
>open and closed, they use a electo magnet to open and a spring to close,
the
>problem here is that you don't have anyway to dampen the decent of the
valve
>back down on the head, so it slams really hard and wears out very quickly.
If
>they can make a system that alows the valve to act like it is riding on a
cam
>and close slower it would be a great system, but alas it is smoke break
time.
>laters :)
>--
> Sam
>
JJons50850
>manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
>answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
81 alfa romeo in the US
JJ
master...@gmail.com
> Probably General Motors.
> David Malinovsky wrote:
>
> > A Trivia question, Honda lovers are so hot on VTEC. Who was the first
> > manufacturer to have variable valve timing on a production car? post your
> > answers and I'll tell you in a couple days
Fiat was the first auto manufacturer to patent a functional automotive variable valve timing system which included variable lift. Developed by Giovanni Torazza in the late 1960s, the system used hydraulic pressure to vary the fulcrum of the cam followers (US Patent 3,641,988).[5] The hydraulic pressure changed according to engine speed and intake pressure. The typical opening variation was 37%.
Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars (US Patent 4,231,330).[5] The fuel injected models of the 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 had a mechanical VVT system. The system was engineered by Ing Giampaolo Garcea in the 1970s.[6]
