Electric Spark noise from under dash when turning ignition key
Pszemol
Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay under
the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
I took it to the dealership today and they told me (without hearing, just
based on description) that that is normal and all hondas do that.
If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out from all
this sparking?
Tegger
news:gssvh9...@poczta.onet.pl:
> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>
> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
> under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light
comes on and goes off?
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Pszemol
news:Xns9BF7C546...@208.90.168.18...
>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>>
>> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
>> under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
>
>
>
> Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light
> comes on and goes off?
No, "check engine" light stays solid on when sparking can be heard.
It seems to me that this is not fully engaged starter relay.
When I am moving the key slowly to the start position first I hear
one subtle relay click which blanks off the radio panel, when I do
continue slowly turning the key I hear second subtle relay click
which turns off the blower motor and then, when I continue to
turn the key slowly I hear the fountain of electric sparks sounds
and then the starter engages and the motor starts with no problem.
Is there a starter motor relay under my dash on the left side of
the steering column? Is it possible that this is what I hear?
Tegger
news:gst168...@poczta.onet.pl:
Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz.
The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the
switch to each position fairly quickly.
What happens if you
1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
Any "sparking" noise now? Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light
comes on and goes off?
--
Pszemol
> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
>
> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz.
Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place?
It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition
contacts!
Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent current
flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger current and now
much more audible buzzing sound.
This arcing over time would cause relays to burn...
> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the
> switch to each position fairly quickly.
Hm...
I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in my
other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or
sparks... At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue starting.
Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...
Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?
> What happens if you
> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>
> Any "sparking" noise now?
> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?
No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
*quickly*.
Just starter engages and the engine starts.
Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be there
when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms instead of
500ms).
Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature failure...
Tegger
news:gst44s...@poczta.onet.pl:
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9BF7CA7C...@208.90.168.18...
>> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
>>
>> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to
>> buzz.
>
> Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place?
Because you're forcing the relay's contacts to just barely make contact
for too long. It's possible to do this with ANY relay if you do things
"just so".
> It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition
> contacts!
No, you're simply turning the key too slowly.
Why are you doing this? Are you /trying/ to find trouble where there is
none?
>
> Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent
> current flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger
> current and now much more audible buzzing sound.
>
> This arcing over time would cause relays to burn...
Well sure, if you insist on being silly about it.
In normal use most drivers simply twist the ignition switch right around
from "0" to "III" without any pauses at all. (That in itself is bad, but
for different reasons.)
>
>> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
>> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn
>> the switch to each position fairly quickly.
>
> Hm...
>
> I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in
> my other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or
> sparks...
Different setup. Toyota only engages the fuel pump once the engine is
turning, so no current will flow until the engine cranks.
> At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
> about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
> the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue
> starting.
Of course. At some point you will complete the circuit to the starter
solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to
find problems where none exist.
>
> Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
> the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...
You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world.
Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what
you do.
>
> Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?
In the days when Honda combined two relays into one, yes. But that was
due to the sheer mass of that combination, which mass caused the famous
Honda PGM-FI Main Relay problems for so many years. That problem and its
solution remains one of the most popular pages on my site.
But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like
everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good.
>
>> What happens if you
>> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
>> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
>> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>>
>> Any "sparking" noise now?
>> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?
>
> No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
> *quickly*.
> Just starter engages and the engine starts.
Then everything's just dandy.
Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do
you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you
want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming?
>
> Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
> The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be
> there when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms
> instead of 500ms).
> Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature
> failure...
>
It doesn't work that way, sorry.
Pszemol
Well, not sure if this is the fuel pump problem... it does not consume
so much current as the starter motor does. I suspect this to be the 'starter
cut relay' which is buzzing in my car.
In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram
which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which
is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also
the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the
starter switch into the ON position.
When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota
camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point
of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered
from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing
power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery
and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing
through the ignition switch in toyota.
>> At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
>> about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
>> the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue
>> starting.
>
>
>
> Of course. At some point you will complete the circuit to the starter
> solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to
> find problems where none exist.
I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat
the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact
and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and
it is turning.
But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key
the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak
ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay coil
AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS!
This should not happen!
I wonder how this wiring diagram looks like in the newer models.
Tegger, do you have any newer Accord service manual? 2008 maybe?
Would you mind scanning this one manual page for me, please?
>> Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
>> the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...
>
>
>
>
> You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world.
> Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what
> you do.
If the problem was non existent than I could not find it...
I would not find it with my toyota - because there is no problem there.
>> Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?
>
>
>
> In the days when Honda combined two relays into one, yes. But that was
> due to the sheer mass of that combination, which mass caused the famous
> Honda PGM-FI Main Relay problems for so many years. That problem and its
> solution remains one of the most popular pages on my site.
>
> But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like
> everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good.
My car is registered April 2004.
It must have been made earlier than that...
>>> What happens if you
>>> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
>>> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
>>> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>>>
>>> Any "sparking" noise now?
>>> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?
>>
>> No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
>> *quickly*.
>> Just starter engages and the engine starts.
>
>
>
> Then everything's just dandy.
:-)) I wish it was just dandy.
It would be dandy if I could not hear this arcing...
> Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do
> you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you
> want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming?
Well, my "relationship" with the dealer is not really my big concern :)
>> Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
>> The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be
>> there when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms
>> instead of 500ms).
>> Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature
>> failure...
>
>
> It doesn't work that way, sorry.
:-)) and yet honda has the famous relay problems but toyota does not...
What a concidinky ;-)
Pszemol
news:gstbqu...@poczta.onet.pl...
> In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram
> which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which
> is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also
> the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the
> starter switch into the ON position.
>
> When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota
> camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point
> of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered
> from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing
> power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery
> and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing
> through the ignition switch in toyota.
Here is the illustration, may be a helpful aid to the text above:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37558759@N06/sets/72157617280874226/
I am still interested if this part of the wiring diagram changed in 2008.
Pszemol
Similar circuit in an old generation toyota camry (pages ST-3, ST-24):
http://www.turboninjas.com/camry/st.pdf
Tegger
news:gstbqu...@poczta.onet.pl:
>
> I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat
> the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact
> and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and
> it is turning.
>
> But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key
> the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak
> ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay
> coil AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS!
> This should not happen!
If you're so concerned, why don't you just sell this car and buy another
Toyota?
There are no TSBs or other known issues with your model's ignition system,
so whatever you're seeing isn't the problem you think it is. Maybe that's
why the dealership told you nothing was wrong.
Pszemol
> "Pszemol" <Psz...@PolBox.com> wrote in
> news:gstbqu...@poczta.onet.pl:
>
>
>>
>> I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat
>> the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact
>> and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and
>> it is turning.
>>
>> But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key
>> the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak
>> ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay
>> coil AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS!
>> This should not happen!
>
>
>
> If you're so concerned, why don't you just sell this car and buy another
> Toyota?
Well, my 2-door accord looks more pretty than toyota ;-)
> There are no TSBs or other known issues with your model's ignition system,
> so whatever you're seeing isn't the problem you think it is. Maybe that's
> why the dealership told you nothing was wrong.
The mechanic should not tell me nothing is wrong without seeing the car
and hearing the noise himself. That was in my opinion not very professional.
jim beam
<snip for clarity>
> The mechanic should not tell me nothing is wrong without seeing the car
> and hearing the noise himself. That was in my opinion not very
> professional.
ygtbfsm.
in our next segment, "professional" psychic vehicle diagnostics!!! more
news at 11.
TomP
Pszemol,
Here is what Honda has to say about the subject:
From Honda ServiceNews October 2001
Starter Relay Buzzes
If you turn the ignition switch very slowly to start
the engine, all Honda models except Passport
have this little quirk: the starter relay buzzes. If
your customer complains about it, don’t spend
your time trying to fix it; there’s really nothing
wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition
switch a little faster, and the relay won’t buzz.
--
Tp,
-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------
No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...
Tegger
news:49F32153...@socal.rr.com:
> Pszemol wrote:
>
>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>>
>> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
>> under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
>>
>> I took it to the dealership today and they told me (without hearing,
>> just based on description) that that is normal and all hondas do
>> that.
>>
>> If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out
>> from all this sparking?
>
> Pszemol,
> Here is what Honda has to say about the subject:
>
> From Honda ServiceNews October 2001
>
> Starter Relay Buzzes
> If you turn the ignition switch very slowly to start
> the engine, all Honda models except Passport
> have this little quirk: the starter relay buzzes. If
> your customer complains about it, don’t spend
> your time trying to fix it; there’s really nothing
> wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition
> switch a little faster, and the relay won’t buzz.
>
Now why didn't I look that one up myself? I have that issue, too.
I wonder if the Chev Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire do this also? They have a
similar "pump run" period at KOEO.
Pszemol
news:49F32153...@socal.rr.com...
> Pszemol wrote:
>
>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>>
>> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
>> under
>> the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
>>
>> I took it to the dealership today and they told me (without hearing, just
>> based on description) that that is normal and all hondas do that.
>>
>> If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out from
>> all
>> this sparking?
>
> Pszemol,
> Here is what Honda has to say about the subject:
>
> From Honda ServiceNews October 2001
>
> Starter Relay Buzzes
> If you turn the ignition switch very slowly to start
> the engine, all Honda models except Passport
> have this little quirk: the starter relay buzzes. If
> your customer complains about it, don't spend
> your time trying to fix it; there's really nothing
> wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition
> switch a little faster, and the relay won't buzz.
Interesting, thank you...
So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
jim beam
give it up dipshit. the only problem with your vehicle is the loose
screw behind the steering wheel.
Pszemol
news:KICdneqC-NRudW7U...@speakeasy.net...
>> Interesting, thank you...
>>
>> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
>> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
>> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
>
> give it up dipshit. the only problem with your vehicle
> is the loose screw behind the steering wheel.
Don't be such a cave man, jim... where are you manners?
Tegger
news:gt045i...@poczta.onet.pl:
>
> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
The fuel pump relay.
> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
>
The Toyota setup passes no current to the fuel pump until the engine is
turning (when key is turned to "start"). The Honda setup passes current to
the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE
the key is turned to "start").
If no current is passed, no relay activity is possible.
jim beam
> "Pszemol" <Psz...@PolBox.com> wrote in
> news:gt045i...@poczta.onet.pl:
>
>
>> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
>
>
>
> The fuel pump relay.
>
>
>
>> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
>> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
>>
>
>
> The Toyota setup passes no current to the fuel pump until the engine is
> turning (when key is turned to "start"). The Honda setup passes current to
> the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE
> the key is turned to "start").
and the honda way is the /right/ way.
Pszemol
>> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
>
> The fuel pump relay.
As you probably noticed, I was refering to the text written by honda
titled "Starter Relay Buzzes". Is honda wrong claiming it is starter relay?
>> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
>> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
>
> The Toyota setup passes no current to the fuel pump until the engine is
> turning (when key is turned to "start"). The Honda setup passes current to
> the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE
> the key is turned to "start").
I understand the statement you make about the differences between
the honda and toyota designs in respect to powering fuel pump.
What I have found comparing STARTER wiring diagrams between
these two cars has nothing to do with the fuel pump. Honda service
buileting also references STARTER relay, not fuel pump relay...
Yet you still are talking about the fuel pump relay... why is that?
> If no current is passed, no relay activity is possible.
This statement is of course true, but which relay are we talking about?
If the relay is energized already in the ON position (II) than it cannot
be buzzing any way when I am turning the key from II to III position.
Is the state of the fuel pump relay changing when I turn the key from
II to III or does it stay energized?
Tegger
news:gt1h4n...@poczta.onet.pl:
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9BF96A8E...@208.90.168.18...
>>> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger?
>>
>> The fuel pump relay.
>
> As you probably noticed, I was refering to the text written by honda
> titled "Starter Relay Buzzes". Is honda wrong claiming it is starter
> relay?
>
>>> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something
>>> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain...
>>
>> The Toyota setup passes no current to the fuel pump until the engine
>> is turning (when key is turned to "start"). The Honda setup passes
>> current to the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned
>> to "II" (BEFORE the key is turned to "start").
>
> I understand the statement you make about the differences between
> the honda and toyota designs in respect to powering fuel pump.
>
> What I have found comparing STARTER wiring diagrams between
> these two cars has nothing to do with the fuel pump. Honda service
> buileting also references STARTER relay, not fuel pump relay...
> Yet you still are talking about the fuel pump relay... why is that?
Because I'm wrong. The HSN article clearly states it's the starter relay,
not the fuel pump relay. I somehow missed that on the first read.
Pszemol
> Because I'm wrong.
Thank you, now I do understand ;-)