1997 Honda Civic Transmission problem
RedCivicGrrl
2002 I took my car to Jiffy Lube (I know, I shouldn't have taken it
there) to have an oil change. They then convinced my to have my
transmission fluid replaced. After I drove my car off the lot, I
could hardly get my manual transmission into ANY gear. Every time I
would shift, my gears would grind severly.
After that driving it around for 2 days because I couldn't take it to
a garage on a Sunday, I took it to my garage. He wasn't sure the
problem at first, it took 3 days to figure out exactly what happened.
He then decided to drain the fluid and test it - it was Gear Oil! I
asked him if that was going to ruin my transmission, and he said it
may, down the line.
January 2003 came and I took my car to a different garage because I
was having a lot of stuff done to it. I also had them checking out a
very odd and metallic sounding noise coming from underneath my hood.
They told my that my transmission was ruined and I needed a new one.
I told them the experience with Jiffy Lube and they said that was
definately the problem.
Now I have a court date set for May 9, 2003 to sue Jiffy Lube for the
problem. Jiffy Lube has already refused to pay several times. Now I
need help proving that it WAS actually them. I called Pennzoil who
was the manufacturer of the gear oil they put in and they said that
was the wrong thing to put in, and my 2nd garage said it ruined my
transmission as well. Jiffy Lube is claiming the garage that replaced
my transmission fluid the 2nd time was actually at fault, and they're
saying they put too little of fluid in. The are saying this because
my 2nd garage also said the fluid was a little low.
Now, my question is, could the gear oil have gotten in there and eaten
a small hole? Also, the garage said there were metal shavings in my
transmission... from grinding my gears. Since the metal shavings are
less dense than the oil, could they have floated to the top and caused
less displacement which looked like there wasn't enough oil in my
transmission? Please help!! I need all the information I can get
before May 9th.
Thanks,
Denelle
Jcsarp
The wrong fluid in your Honda will DEFINITELY cause serious damage. Honda
automobiles use fluids that are often specially formulated for Honda use only.
I'm sure that you will receive some replies that ... "Brand A is the same as
Honda, or Brand B makes it for Honda." The point is ... transmission fluid,
transmission gear oil, antifreeze, power steering fluid, etc., are relatively
inexpensive products. Why even take the chance to save a couple of bucks by
buying another brand that "might" be formulated for your Honda. Buy the
genuine Honda fluids from your Honda dealer where they can also perform the
service you need. If you have a problem with the dealers labor rate, then take
the Honda fluid(s) to your mechanic and pay him to do the work. Good luck.
John
>Subject: 1997 Honda Civic Transmission problem
>From: LiLAd...@suscom.net (RedCivicGrrl)
>Date: 3/30/03 9:09 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <678a0942.03033...@posting.google.com>
Nick
I have seen too many times where people get burnt for not either
A) not getting the job done by a Honda dealer or
B) not using Honda OEM parts and fluids.
Proving these types of cases are very hard thing to do and in most cases you need to come up with the proof that the place you took it to caused the
damage. Did you tell you mechanic to keep any of the gear oil that he claimed was the cause of the problem? If not it is going to be very difficult to
convince someone that Jiffy Lube was at fault.
I don't trust any dealerships except my local Honda dealers to work on my car (And even then 1 out of the 3 I would never go back to again). I may
only go to them for oil and transmission changes as I do most of the major work but that's who I would go to. The jack of all trades like Jiffy Lube
knows the basics, but doesn't know the specifics of every automobile manufacturer. It really isn't worth saving $3-10 to go to some retail chain like
Jiffy Lube and Pepboys to get the job done and chance it getting done the wrong way as is in your case.
Nick
RedCivicGrrl
but #1, my garage who drained the fluid tested it to find it was gear
oil, but the big one that will kill them is I wrote a letter to the
BBB and in response they even wrote that they put Pennzoil GL4
Synthetic Gear Oil in my transmission. They claimed to have called
Pennzoil and supposedly they said that that was okay for my
transmission. Now, I called Pennzoil myself and they said it will
KILL my transmission. I am going to try and find a local Pennzoil
representative to speak on my behalf. But as long as Jiffy Lube
admitted they put gear oil in my transmission (on Jiffy Lube
letterhead) I have their admission right there.
Denelle
Nick <npo...@NOSPAMMONKEYShotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0rge8vk0vbgb86r15...@4ax.com>...
Peter
stock it?
last time i checked a honda transmission basically uses motor oil...or motor
oil with extra additives.
"RedCivicGrrl" <LiLAd...@suscom.net> wrote in message
news:678a0942.03033...@posting.google.com...
mike
> but #1, my garage who drained the fluid tested it to find it was gear
> oil, but the big one that will kill them is I wrote a letter to the
> BBB and in response they even wrote that they put Pennzoil GL4
> Synthetic Gear Oil in my transmission. They claimed to have called
> Pennzoil and supposedly they said that that was okay for my
> transmission. Now, I called Pennzoil myself and they said it will
> KILL my transmission. I am going to try and find a local Pennzoil
> representative to speak on my behalf. But as long as Jiffy Lube
> admitted they put gear oil in my transmission (on Jiffy Lube
> letterhead) I have their admission right there.
yes, you do! good luck with that :)
mike
"Peter" <pe...@acranox.org> wrote in message
news:SBOha.312675$sf5.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> So I'm wondering, what is gear oil good for?
some older gearboxes, like the '75 MG i had, most rearends in RWD cars. even
then, there are different formulas, like hypoid, and multi-weight.
fluffy
reputable Honda Service Department and have them look at the transmission
and get a written estimate as well as a letter stating that putting Gear Oil
in the transmission caused the damage.
A small claims court is not going to automatically give you $ in the amount
of a new transmission but probably the cost for the repair of the damage...
if the damage requires a new transmission then you may get it but the court
may ask for several estimates as well.
From your recent information, it seems clear that they put the wrong type of
oil in your transmission. Perhaps the 2nd shop is convincing you that you
need a new transmission just like the first shop convinced you that you need
to replace your transmission fluid.
From the information you have posted you will have easy time proving they
used the wrong fluid in your transmission but you still have to work on
proving that the oil in your car for those xx days or xx miles caused the
damage... You have not stated the extent of the damage to the
transmission....what's "ruined transmission"?
Gear Oil will not eat small holes in your transmission. Though gear oil
were not ideal in this case, it could've been worst - NO Oil at all.
Metal shaving inside transmission is not uncommon. If you were to drain any
transmission, you'll find metal shaving.. how much is too much is something
else?
Metal shaving are not more dense than oil. Metal shavings are still metal
and will sink to the bottom when the vehicle comes to a rest and
transmission stops moving.
BTW - Good luck. I hope they take responsibility for their mistake and just
pay for the repair.
"RedCivicGrrl" <LiLAd...@suscom.net> wrote in message
news:678a0942.03033...@posting.google.com...
George Macdonald
>Let me breif you on my the story of my problem quickly. In June of
>2002 I took my car to Jiffy Lube (I know, I shouldn't have taken it
>there) to have an oil change. They then convinced my to have my
>transmission fluid replaced. After I drove my car off the lot, I
>could hardly get my manual transmission into ANY gear. Every time I
>would shift, my gears would grind severly.
>After that driving it around for 2 days because I couldn't take it to
>a garage on a Sunday, I took it to my garage. He wasn't sure the
>problem at first, it took 3 days to figure out exactly what happened.
>He then decided to drain the fluid and test it - it was Gear Oil! I
>asked him if that was going to ruin my transmission, and he said it
>may, down the line.
Most "garages" do not have oil testing equipment. What did he do to come
to that conclusion - smell it? I'm not being facetious here because that's
how I'd tell but it's hardly conclusive evidence without a lab test.
>January 2003 came and I took my car to a different garage because I
>was having a lot of stuff done to it. I also had them checking out a
>very odd and metallic sounding noise coming from underneath my hood.
>They told my that my transmission was ruined and I needed a new one.
>I told them the experience with Jiffy Lube and they said that was
>definately the problem.
>Now I have a court date set for May 9, 2003 to sue Jiffy Lube for the
>problem. Jiffy Lube has already refused to pay several times. Now I
>need help proving that it WAS actually them. I called Pennzoil who
>was the manufacturer of the gear oil they put in and they said that
>was the wrong thing to put in, and my 2nd garage said it ruined my
>transmission as well. Jiffy Lube is claiming the garage that replaced
>my transmission fluid the 2nd time was actually at fault, and they're
>saying they put too little of fluid in. The are saying this because
>my 2nd garage also said the fluid was a little low.
I'm no legal expert but if you can't get Pennzoil and the two mechanics to
testify on your behalf and get lab tests on the "gear oil", I'd think
you'll have a hard time getting a ruling in your favor.
>Now, my question is, could the gear oil have gotten in there and eaten
>a small hole? Also, the garage said there were metal shavings in my
>transmission... from grinding my gears. Since the metal shavings are
>less dense than the oil, could they have floated to the top and caused
>less displacement which looked like there wasn't enough oil in my
>transmission? Please help!! I need all the information I can get
>before May 9th.
You need to be a bit more specific about the "gear oil". AFAIK, the
current Honda MTF is a gear oil - SAE 75W/80 API GL4. What is *not*
suitable for a Honda manual trans is API GL5. Apparently, according to the
Pennzoil advice, you know what oil type Jiffy Lube used... but you didn't
tell us???. Has Jiffy Lube specified this, say on the invoice? Did you
get a sample of the gear oil *and* the stuff with the metal shavings?
I'm surprised that 2/3 days of use of "gear oil" in a Honda manual trans
would wreck it. Many mfrs use such oil in their transmissions. I guess
it's possible that the EP additives in a GL5 might cause a bearing to
"pick-up" and sieze but that depends on the metals Honda uses - something
which would be good to know for your court case. It would certainly not
"eat a hole" anywhere. What happened to the broken manual trans?
Disassembly should reveal what exactly got damaged.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
RedCivicGrrl
oil should be put in - 10w30, 10w40, nothing higher. The gear oil,
like all other gear oils had a higher SAE... it was 80w90, or
something to that effect, I don't have all my paperwork right here.
Jiffy Lube is using the argument that this gear oil is okay for my
car, in which I have several statements saying it will ruin my
transmission, and it doesn't matter how long it's in there, it just
has to be in there long enough to run through my transmission and
those few days are enough. Also, someone had said about him testing
it. He sent the oil somewhere to be tested, I didn't ask, because I
didn't care right then, I didn't know anything was going to go wrong
with my transmission. When I specifically asked him, he said it may
or may not. I wasn't even thinking at first that Jiffy Lube did
anything wrong. I know that most manufacturers use their own
"transmission fluid," and the fluid they use is 10w40. My garage
already tore apart my transmission, but they said it can't be 100%
conclusive that the gear oil was the cause of my transmission failure
but that is what it is appearing happened. Blah, blah, blah... I was
not paying full attenting at the time that he told because I was too
upset that my bill was $1400 for everything. That's a used
transmission by the way. By the time a new transmission was in and
said and done they said it would be about $2600. I know I have to
talk to them, I'm going to do that on Saturday, I have an appointment.
But I'm asking around for all the help I can get. I'm asking for
help to prove this, or if anyone has any problems like this. I'm also
asking the effects the gear oil will have on my transmission - not for
everyone to act like the defense attorney for Jiffy Lube and try and
argue that they're not at fault. I've already been told they are, I
already have a lot of my case ready and the court date set... I just
now am looking for some closing arguements.
Denelle
fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3e87e1f9....@news.tellurian.com>...
fluffy
looking in so our mind is not as tainted and the comments you get are mostly
an unbiased assessment of the situation and help you out in areas that we
can.
You easily can prove that they put the wrong recommended type of oil in the
car but it's going to be much tougher to prove that it caused the damage in
the 2-3 days that it was in your transmission. I hope you had asked
whom-ever repaired your transmission to keep the carcass because if I was
Jiffy Lube I would want an independent test of the transmission to verify
that the oil they put in caused the damaged the required a brand new
transmission.
What exactly happened to the transmission anyway? There was a noise and a
new transmission was on order? Jiffy Lube did your wrong - The shop that
did your transmission might have as well.
Good Luck
"RedCivicGrrl" <LiLAd...@suscom.net> wrote in message
news:678a0942.03033...@posting.google.com...
TomP
in an expert witness, to testify to the facts of the case. The judge in
not a mechanic, therefore, likely has no interest in inspecting damaged
parts. It's also likely the judge does not have time to try to make sense
of damage reports written by "so called experts." What the judge will do
is choose to believe the most logical and credible evidence presented.
That means a paid "expert witness" who will take the stand and tell the
judge, their opinion.
I believe Honda has written Service News articles advising against using
"gear oil." Gear oil as defined by S.A.E.
RedCivicGrrl wrote:
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Freedom is not free; Free men are not equal; Equal men are not free.
George Macdonald
>When I called a Honda manufacturer, they told me just regular motor
>oil should be put in - 10w30, 10w40, nothing higher.
Honda hasn't recommended engine oil for transmissions for a number of years
- not sure about your '97. In the U.S. Honda recommends only their own
MTF, for which they give no SAE or API classification. The Honda Australia
site used to specify the Honda MTF as SAE 75W/80 API GL4 but I'm not
confident enough in that comparison that I'd actually use a non-Honda oil
in my gearbox. Unfortunately we get few subscribers in this NG from
Australia to get a better handle on this.
> The gear oil,
>like all other gear oils had a higher SAE... it was 80w90, or
>something to that effect, I don't have all my paperwork right here.
The high temp viscosity spec for gear oil is measured at a different
temperature - 150F vs. 210F - so the numbers are not directly comparable.
A 95 weight gear oil is equivalent to about a 40 weight engine oil in high
temperature viscosity.
>Jiffy Lube is using the argument that this gear oil is okay for my
>car, in which I have several statements saying it will ruin my
>transmission, and it doesn't matter how long it's in there, it just
>has to be in there long enough to run through my transmission and
>those few days are enough. Also, someone had said about him testing
>it. He sent the oil somewhere to be tested, I didn't ask, because I
>didn't care right then, I didn't know anything was going to go wrong
>with my transmission.
If that testing data is still available you absolutely need to get a hard
copy of it as evidence. In particular it would be good to know if it had
any sulfur in it - a common gear oil extreme pressure additive which may
react badly with some metals.
> When I specifically asked him, he said it may
>or may not. I wasn't even thinking at first that Jiffy Lube did
>anything wrong. I know that most manufacturers use their own
>"transmission fluid," and the fluid they use is 10w40. My garage
>already tore apart my transmission, but they said it can't be 100%
>conclusive that the gear oil was the cause of my transmission failure
>but that is what it is appearing happened. Blah, blah, blah... I was
>not paying full attenting at the time that he told because I was too
>upset that my bill was $1400 for everything. That's a used
>transmission by the way. By the time a new transmission was in and
>said and done they said it would be about $2600. I know I have to
>talk to them, I'm going to do that on Saturday, I have an appointment.
> But I'm asking around for all the help I can get. I'm asking for
>help to prove this, or if anyone has any problems like this. I'm also
>asking the effects the gear oil will have on my transmission - not for
>everyone to act like the defense attorney for Jiffy Lube and try and
>argue that they're not at fault. I've already been told they are, I
>already have a lot of my case ready and the court date set... I just
>now am looking for some closing arguements.
I'm sorry if you got the impression that we are acting like Jiffy Lube
attorneys but I believe that's how you have to approach the problem.... so
that you can have answers to at least their obvious arguments against your
position. I believe that anticipating the opponents case is a common
approach used by attorneys. I'm sure we'd all hate to see Jiffy Lube win
here.:-)
As for the gear oil damaging your transmission, I'm not 100% sure but I
have doubts that the viscosity of the gear oil alone would be the cause.
It's more likely that the gear oil has an additive which damaged one or
more bearings, through "pick-up" of the metal - possibly the sulfur
mentioned above - or which badly impaired the synchromesh mechanism of your
gears. The proof would be in the condition of the various components
observed when your gearbox was disassembled.
RedCivicGrrl
message not thinking to direct it to certain people who are emailing
my at my email address less than helpful comments.
I already have their admission, Pennzoil's admission and my garage's
admission that this was the wrong fluid. I know that the garage kept
the transmission and they said they will pinpoint the exact problem
for me considering I'm not a mechanic.
What happened to my transmission... originally I thought it was my
throw out bearing in my clutch because when I would let my clutch out
it would make a horrendous noise. I couldn't even hear people talk
over the noise. Then it continuously got worse until January I
decided to take it to my garage. The reason I took it to this garage
is because the owner is a good friend of the families, and the service
manager, and the co-owner are also good friends. The guys were
already making tons of money off of me they definately weren't trying
to screw me. The garage then replaced my clutch but the noise didn't
go away. They agreed, it did sound like my throw out bearing. They
then started tearing everything apart and found out that it was my
transmission that was bad. This was a HONDA civc, with about 95,000
miles on. This wasn't a ford here... Honda transmissions just don't
go bad for no reason. They asked me if I had been anywhere to replace
the fluid and I told them the Jiffy Lube story. They told me that
there were a few teeth off of the gears in my transmission and metal
shavings. They said my transmission wouldn't last much longer and it
would just continue to get worse until I replaced it... so I did.
They said the fluid in it also was a tad below what it should have
been at, but they said it didn't ruin the transmission because there
was enough to splash around.