Random Starting Problems
Jake
My daughter is away at school and once in a while her car
just won't start. I've bought her a new battery and had
the tech check her system out...everything ok. It is very
frustrating.
Seems when she turns the key, all accessories turn on, but
when she turns it more to start, the starter does not even
click. She will pull the key out and try again and it will
start. Other times it won't. She said a few times,
pulling the key out and rotating it before putting it back
in started the car. It is OK for a week or two, then it
will happen again. I told her to bring it to a Honda
dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
I'm afraid she will get stuck somewhere, but her being so
far away, I wish I could help. Could there be problems
with the ignition switch or some type of safety cut out on
the passive seat belt motors. Any other ideas?
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Kevin McMurtrie
<jsasurN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Vehicle: 1990 Interga LS -AUTO
>My daughter is away at school and once in a while her car
>just won't start. I've bought her a new battery and had
>the tech check her system out...everything ok. It is very
>frustrating.
>
>Seems when she turns the key, all accessories turn on, but
>when she turns it more to start, the starter does not even
>click. She will pull the key out and try again and it will
>start. Other times it won't. She said a few times,
>pulling the key out and rotating it before putting it back
>in started the car. It is OK for a week or two, then it
>will happen again. I told her to bring it to a Honda
>dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
>time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
>time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
>I'm afraid she will get stuck somewhere, but her being so
>far away, I wish I could help. Could there be problems
>with the ignition switch or some type of safety cut out on
>the passive seat belt motors. Any other ideas?
>
There are several electrical connections between the key switch and the
starter motor. There's usually a safety switch on the shifter (or
clutch), sometimes an aftermarket alarm relay, a relay to activate the
starter's solonoid, and then there's a relay on the starter's solonoid
that turns on the motor when the starter's gears are engaged.
A competant mechanic shouldn't have any trouble with this so try another
dealership.
J. Davis
> >I told her to bring it to a Honda
> >dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
> >time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
> >time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
<snip>
> A competant mechanic shouldn't have any trouble with this so try another
> dealership.
A competent mechanic can't diagnose a no-start condition on
a car that starts just fine. Your estimation of what is possibly
wrong with the car is spot-on, but your critiscism of the dealer
and independant garage is not valid.
Not trying to be a dick, but there are plenty of honest mechanics
out there trying to make a living who don't need the bad word
of mouth advertising that Jake could give them after reading your
post.
Joseph
--
Warning: reply-to address needs despamming,
remove irrelevant religious referrence for
speedy correspondence.
J. Davis
Robert Isbell wrote:
> > A competent mechanic can't diagnose a no-start condition on
> > a car that starts just fine. Your estimation of what is possibly
> > wrong with the car is spot-on, but your critiscism of the dealer
> > and independant garage is not valid.
> >
> > Not trying to be a dick, but there are plenty of honest mechanics
> > out there trying to make a living who don't need the bad word
> > of mouth advertising that Jake could give them after reading your
> > post.
> >
> > Joseph
>
> Very well put Joseph. I believe the assumption is that all "competent
> mechanics" have some way to tell what's wrong with a car regardless of
> weather or not it's acting up.
I really don't think that was what Kevin was implying *intentionally*
You don't have a good grasp of what could go wrong with the system
like he does without knowing "how it is"
I think he skimmed the (long) post and only paid attention to the
tech bit, and drew an incorrect conclusion - I've done it, and so
have the rest of us. I just didn't want anyone, Jake in particular,
to misunderstand what's going on here.
Robert Isbell
> A competent mechanic can't diagnose a no-start condition on
> a car that starts just fine. Your estimation of what is possibly
> wrong with the car is spot-on, but your critiscism of the dealer
> and independant garage is not valid.
>
> Not trying to be a dick, but there are plenty of honest mechanics
> out there trying to make a living who don't need the bad word
> of mouth advertising that Jake could give them after reading your
> post.
>
> Joseph
Very well put Joseph. I believe the assumption is that all "competent
mechanics" have some way to tell what's wrong with a car regardless of
weather or not it's acting up. At my dealer we spend too much time
trying to explain to customers that if it doesn't act up when a
Technician is looking at it, or at least on a consistent basis, we can't
fix it.
Robert.
Heigl
-Kevin is right, some mechanics are usually too hesitant to look into
problem that never exist when they aren't their, but some will allow two
hours to find it then give up and some will never give up.
-Kevin is right about the Intergra. There are at least four areas to check
in the ignition wiring system. It doesn't take much to clean or update these
areas without losing a dime for parts. A competent mechanic will at least go
ahead and make sure the wiring path is not blocked. Starting from the
battery, ignition key, fuse, and or relay, solenoid connection and clutch
park or switch. My niece had this similar problem two times and each time
I'd never gave up because it's my niece.
> > Very well put Joseph. I believe the assumption is that all "competent
> > mechanics" have some way to tell what's wrong with a car regardless of
> > weather or not it's acting up.
> You don't have a good grasp of what could go wrong with the system
> like he does without knowing "how it is"
> I think he ...drew an incorrect conclusion
Sean Dinh
key to on and start a few times when the car does not start next time.
On the 91 Civic, the switch hub is plastic. The switch key is metallic.
After so many cycles on the switch, the plastic hub wears out and barely
turn the actual switch.
Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <28b65d32...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com>, Jake
> <jsasurN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Vehicle: 1990 Interga LS -AUTO
> >My daughter is away at school and once in a while her car
> >just won't start. I've bought her a new battery and had
> >the tech check her system out...everything ok. It is very
> >frustrating.
> >
> >Seems when she turns the key, all accessories turn on, but
> >when she turns it more to start, the starter does not even
> >click. She will pull the key out and try again and it will
> >start. Other times it won't. She said a few times,
> >pulling the key out and rotating it before putting it back
> >in started the car. It is OK for a week or two, then it
> >will happen again. I told her to bring it to a Honda
> >dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
> >time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
> >time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
> >I'm afraid she will get stuck somewhere, but her being so
> >far away, I wish I could help. Could there be problems
> >with the ignition switch or some type of safety cut out on
> >the passive seat belt motors. Any other ideas?
> >
>
> There are several electrical connections between the key switch and the
> starter motor. There's usually a safety switch on the shifter (or
> clutch), sometimes an aftermarket alarm relay, a relay to activate the
> starter's solonoid, and then there's a relay on the starter's solonoid
> that turns on the motor when the starter's gears are engaged.
>
J. Davis
> And then, there is that key switch. Have your daughter repeatedly turn the
> key to on and start a few times when the car does not start next time.
> On the 91 Civic, the switch hub is plastic. The switch key is metallic.
> After so many cycles on the switch, the plastic hub wears out and barely
> turn the actual switch.
On that note, I've had to replace the metal ignition switch base on
two Honda products as they were worn and would no longer let
the switch turn all the way into the start position at times... it was
pretty noticeable that it was barely turning the switch into the start
range even when it did engage.
I'm talking about the inner rotating part of the ignition lock, once
you've removed the keyed lock cylinder & the plastic ignition
switch itself. I don't know the exact terminology for it, sorry.
Robert Isbell
wasn't pointing any fingers. I just thought you had brought up a good
point stated so in my post. I just wanted Jake to know that just because
the car wasn't fixed doesn't mean the Technicians were incompetent.
Robert.
> I really don't think that was what Kevin was implying *intentionally*
> You don't have a good grasp of what could go wrong with the system
> like he does without knowing "how it is"
>
> I think he skimmed the (long) post and only paid attention to the
> tech bit, and drew an incorrect conclusion - I've done it, and so
> have the rest of us. I just didn't want anyone, Jake in particular,
> to misunderstand what's going on here.
>
Robert Isbell
diagnosing an electrical problem than just looking until you find it.
You have to keep in mind that the Technician is probably getting paid by
the job, and has a time limit on how long he can spend doing it. Then
there is always the dilemma of giving the customer good value. Spending
an hour to inspect, clean and adjust parts is OK, but if what you do
doesn't fix the problem then you haven't given a good value for the
customers dollar. At our dealer if we don't find a problem then we don't
charge the customer. The Technician will get paid up to a certain point
then after that it's free. All of the Technicians at my dealer have
given away free time to try to find problems. Sometimes it pays off
sometimes not.
The truth is that we don't know the facts. We weren't there when the
Technician looked at the Integra so we don't really know what was done.
Nothing could have been done, or time could have been spent checking
everything. Only the Technician that worked on it knows for sure.
Robert.
Heigl wrote:
>
> I think Kevin drew some correct conclusions:
> -Kevin is right, some mechanics are usually too hesitant to look into
> problem that never exist when they aren't their, but some will allow two
> hours to find it then give up and some will never give up.
> -Kevin is right about the Intergra. There are at least four areas to check
> in the ignition wiring system. It doesn't take much to clean or update these
> areas without losing a dime for parts. A competent mechanic will at least go
> ahead and make sure the wiring path is not blocked. Starting from the
> battery, ignition key, fuse, and or relay, solenoid connection and clutch
> park or switch. My niece had this similar problem two times and each time
> I'd never gave up because it's my niece.
>
> > > Very well put Joseph. I believe the assumption is that all "competent
> > > mechanics" have some way to tell what's wrong with a car regardless of
> > > weather or not it's acting up.
>
> > You don't have a good grasp of what could go wrong with the system
> > like he does without knowing "how it is"
> > I think he ...drew an incorrect conclusion
Kevin McMurtrie
wrote:
>Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>
>> >I told her to bring it to a Honda
>> >dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
>> >time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
>> >time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
>
><snip>
>
>> A competant mechanic shouldn't have any trouble with this so try another
>> dealership.
>
>A competent mechanic can't diagnose a no-start condition on
>a car that starts just fine. Your estimation of what is possibly
>wrong with the car is spot-on, but your critiscism of the dealer
>and independant garage is not valid.
>
>Not trying to be a dick, but there are plenty of honest mechanics
>out there trying to make a living who don't need the bad word
>of mouth advertising that Jake could give them after reading your
>post.
>
>Joseph
>
Understood, but it seems like this problem is getting bad enough that
there should be some visible signs like a loose wire, worn key contacts,
worn relay, or sticky starter solenoid. When somebody starts getting
stranded they shouldn't just say "Works now."
I admit I'm a bit biased against dealership mechanics. I've seen so
many that were not capable of repairing a car, didn't care, or were
fraudulent.
My favorite for incompetence: Freeman Toyota in Santa Rosa, CA.
I wanted an emissions warranty repair for stuck air intake thermostat
that was causing severe pinging. The "certified" mechanic working on my
88 Tercel was putting jumper wires into empty holes of a diagnostics
jack and checking the AC light. He said the AC light would blink if
there was engine trouble. The car didn't have a diagnostics computer!
When I gave him the repair manual, he admitted he couldn't read. He
badly burned his fingers while repeatedly trying to use a digital
thermometer to see if the air intake was above 100F. I explained that
100F wouldn't burn his fingers but he was very determined to get a
digital reading. I was then escorted out of the repair area. My car
came back with an exhaust hose and vacuum line left disconnected.
Runner up: Same dealership gave me a passing smog test showing 20% O2,
0.01% C02, 0.00% CO, 0.00% HC. The local Bureau of Automotive Repair
was no better because they rejected my claim of fraud, saying the test
looked OK.
My favorite for unwillingness to work: Stevens Creek Honda in San Jose,
CA.
A coolant hose exploded underneath the throttle body on my 20 day old
Civic, which I had purchased there. The service manager refused repairs
saying it could not possibly be a Honda problem and somebody must have
taken my keys, opened the car, and cut up the hose as a joke. They also
refused to fix my sticking gas pedal because the sticking gas pedal
recall didn't apply to my model of car, therefore it wasn't having a
problem. I was extremely angry and yelling at the service manager
before he even agreed to look at my car. (They fixed the throttle cable
wrong.)
Mike
it is located under the dash, left hand side. The failure mode was that the
engine would sometimes not start when warm. After a few minutes (during
which I normally fiddled with the key), the car would start fine. When the
relay would act up, the fuel pump would not start and that lack of noise can
be noticed if listened for carefully. There have been a number of posts on
this subject. Apparently, the solder on the joints cracks after a while and
opens up when it is warmed, hence resulting in an open switch. Of course,
this may not be the problem in this case, but it has occurred before...
As an aside, there are no frayed wires or sign of failure as it is a closed
module and works perfectly most of the time.
Mike
"Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmu...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:mcmurtri-D7273B...@news.sonic.net...
> In article <28b65d32...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com>, Jake
> <jsasurN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Vehicle: 1990 Interga LS -AUTO
> >My daughter is away at school and once in a while her car
> >just won't start. I've bought her a new battery and had
> >the tech check her system out...everything ok. It is very
> >frustrating.
> >
> >Seems when she turns the key, all accessories turn on, but
> >when she turns it more to start, the starter does not even
> >click. She will pull the key out and try again and it will
> >start. Other times it won't. She said a few times,
> >pulling the key out and rotating it before putting it back
> >in started the car. It is OK for a week or two, then it
> >will happen again. I told her to bring it to a Honda
> >dealership, but because everything was working OK at the
> >time, they found no problems. She had the car towed one
> >time and when they got it to a local garage, it started.
> >I'm afraid she will get stuck somewhere, but her being so
> >far away, I wish I could help. Could there be problems
> >with the ignition switch or some type of safety cut out on
> >the passive seat belt motors. Any other ideas?
> >
>
> There are several electrical connections between the key switch and the
> starter motor. There's usually a safety switch on the shifter (or
> clutch), sometimes an aftermarket alarm relay, a relay to activate the
> starter's solonoid, and then there's a relay on the starter's solonoid
> that turns on the motor when the starter's gears are engaged.
>
J. Davis
> I admit I'm a bit biased against dealership mechanics. I've seen so
> many that were not capable of repairing a car, didn't care, or were
> fraudulent.
We could swap stories for hours. There's only one dealer
around here that has a better setup than one lead mechanic
babysitting a full complement of parts changers. It's sad
when the dealer's repair ability is summed up by the one
or two good mechanics ability to diaper their coworkers.
I have more certifications than 80% of the local dealer
boys (sans the Merc or BMW crews) and I quit the auto
trade to go back to school. Says a lot, doesn't it?
Joseph.
S. Heigl
much as I can.
The #1 reason why we buy Hondas. They never break if we maintain them. I own
an old honda with 500,000 miles with original motors & tranny and I zip pass
motorist on steep climb. As long as it's own by us & care for it, then it'll
last forever. Not a single time in my life that my nifty little car has
been under the shade of a repair shop. (except for recalls, smogs and
warrantee repairs) my honda will never see a mechanic in a shop. Keep
preventative maintanence and prevent the mechanics. "An apple a day keeps
the doctor away." Actually I sold the car and purchassed it back from the
person I sold it to for twice as much. The new owner began neglecting it. I
love my Honda like a living being. It's part of a happy family. (Knock on
wood.)
> Understood, but it seems like this problem is getting bad enough that
> there should be some visible signs like a loose wire, worn key contacts,
> worn relay, or sticky starter solenoid. When somebody starts getting
> stranded they shouldn't just say "Works now.">
> I admit I'm a bit biased against dealership mechanics. I've seen so
> many that were not capable of repairing a car, didn't care, or were
> fraudulent.
Captain Nemo
months. As others have said, it's easy to diagnose when it
fails consistently but difficult when it's not failing. On
my Honda, the first time in they just cleaned and checked
wiring connections, since it wouldn't fail for them. The
question, of course, was whether when I turned the key
there was power getting to the solenoid.
I'm glad they didn't just replace the starter without
knowing the problem. But sometimes the technicians are not
very imaginative. If I had been the tech, I would have
wired up a little temporary light to the solenoid terminal,
and I would have told the customer (me) to note whether or
not the light came on when the starter failed to spin.
That would quickly rule out all the wiring between the
ignition key and the solenoid. Why couldn't THEY think of
that? I was about to do it myself, but then it failed
consistently and they knew to replace the starter.
J. Davis
> If I had been the tech, I would have
> wired up a little temporary light to the solenoid terminal,
> and I would have told the customer (me) to note whether or
> not the light came on when the starter failed to spin.
> That would quickly rule out all the wiring between the
> ignition key and the solenoid. Why couldn't THEY think of
> that?
That is standard procedure, bud. I don't know what
the shop you took it to's problem was, but....
Joseph
Robert Isbell
that stuff like that costs money to wire up. Most customers won't pay
for that kind of work.
Robert
S. Heigl
figure out whether the computer or the ignitor is dead on 92 or later
models. The problem were figuring out what the currents are suppose to be.
It seems that I've found schematics for many JVC's Yamaha's, Sony and Rotel
but none for the Honda ECU. What a waste of time trying to figure out what
the voltages are suppose to be by using logic and reasoning.
In other words, some people might not think of the light bulb at the
solenoid because they don't know what electronic is. They're mechanics,
otherwise they should be called mechanectricians. A car has four or more
major components, mechanical, electrical, chemical, and upholstery.
MechanectricaianChemiphosery sort to speak. Generally it's not the
mechanic's job to be a super mechanic. Just old-fashioned
learn-from-experience is fine.
-Susan
"I want to build cars, not fix them"
> I've had the same problem on TWO cars in the last six
> months. As others have said, it's easy to diagnose when it
> fails consistently but difficult when it's not failing. On
> my Honda, the first time in they just cleaned and checked
> wiring connections, since it wouldn't fail for them. The
> question, of course, was whether when I turned the key
> there was power getting to the solenoid.
> I'm glad they didn't just replace the starter without
> knowing the problem. But sometimes the technicians are not
> very imaginative. If I had been the tech, I would have
> wired up a little temporary light to the solenoid terminal,
> and I would have told the customer (me) to note whether or
> not the light came on when the starter failed to spin.
> That would quickly rule out all the wiring between the
> ignition key and the solenoid. Why couldn't THEY think of
J. Davis
> It's not that the Technicians don't think of things like that, it's just
> that stuff like that costs money to wire up. Most customers won't pay
> for that kind of work.
Er, clip test light (you can't afford one?) to solenoid, stick end
in (-) battery terminal, crank engine (crane head to peer thru
gap between top of firewall and hood, so you can see the light).
The only way any customer is going to be charged for that
much diagnosis is if they just wanted a diagnosis so they can
fix it themselves... and in such a situation I'd feel bad charging
$10 (but would if they're in there wasting my time with such
a simple diagnosis).
J. Davis
"S. Heigl" wrote:
> I'd tried to be a little imaginative when it comes times when I needed to
> figure out whether the computer or the ignitor is dead on 92 or later
> models. The problem were figuring out what the currents are suppose to be.
> It seems that I've found schematics for many JVC's Yamaha's, Sony and Rotel
> but none for the Honda ECU. What a waste of time trying to figure out what
> the voltages are suppose to be by using logic and reasoning.
Current is largely irrelevant in (automotive) electronic diagnosis,
and the voltages utilized are the standard in electronics the world
over - 5 or 12 volts.
Captain Nemo
chemical, and upholstery. "
Upholstery???
S. Heigl
I made that up. Please ignore. : )
Mike
cassidy...@gte.net says...
> > Upholstery???
>
> I made that up. Please ignore. : )
Don't forget a radio / sunroof if installed. :)