Mach 460 -- anyone have spec's?
rsewe...@amteva.com
appreciated. Thanks.
= Richard S =
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
94GT
>
>Does anyone have spec's on the Mach 460 sound system? Any help would be
>appreciated. Thanks.
>= Richard S =
This is what I've collected from the group:
---1---
The system consist of:
- Four 2.5" tweeters, two located in door pods and two in rear shelf or
speaker enclosures in cnvt.
- Two 5"x7" speakers, located in the doors.
- Two 6"x8" speakers, in rear shelf or speaker enclosures in cnvt.
- Two 80-watt mono amplifiers, in trunk or behind backseat in cnvt.
- One 65-watt stereo amplifier, in center console.
- One AM/FM cassette stereo, optional separate CD player - to be placed
underneath head unit.
The stereo amp powers the four tweeters while one mono amp powers the rear
woofers and one mono amp powers the door speakers.
----
(according to the 94 sales brochure, all four speakers are 5.25" x 7.25".
Dunno.)
---2---
The head unit is made by Sony (as everyone points out). The amps and
speakers are made by a company called Mach (Hence the name - Mach460)
-------
Don't know how correct the statement about the amps and speakers is, but Sony
did make the head unit.
--
Pony on!
-Jonathan
1994 5.0 Mustang Convertible, Triple Black
www.unf.edu/~jmaton/mustang
jma...@unf.edu
Joe Breitenbach
are peak ratings at something like 4% THD...
Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
http://www.tranquilitybase.com/joe
GARY L KIRKBRIDE
automatically mean I have the Mach 460 sound system?
Clint Law
Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373B7EB9...@bellsouth.net>...
>I wonder why they don't give the THD at the RMS power rating. Peak
>rating is virtually useless, since nobody listens to sine waves at full
>power for very long. (?)
>
>Still, I've got to admit 230 watts RMS isn't bad at all. THD at that
>rating is probably around 1.5%, considering the amps' eq curve and the
>speaker-level inputs (they do have them, right?).
Yep, those things are getting a crapload of power. The AMPS are also
*very*heavily eq'ed - not just a little. Try replacing the stock speakers
with some good, flat responce aftermarket ones and you will notice how much
they had to tweak the amps to make the system sound pretty good.
>Joe
>Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
>http://www.tranquilitybase.com/joe
>
>
>"JD, Mona & The Bear" wrote:
>> <*snip*>
>> Joe: THD in my '98 GT sales brochure, 2%.
>>
>> Amp configuration: MACH 460 features three external amps: a 60-watt
>> parametrically equalized amp (individual eq. in coupe and convertable
>> models) with two subwoofer amps rated at 85 watts each for 230 watts RMS
>> - for a total of 460 watts peak power (2% THD). Plus, 8 premium quality
>> speakers: 4 large low-distortion subwoofers and 4 midrange/tweeters.
>>
>> Kindly keep it Country,
>>
>> JD & Mona
JD, Mona & The Bear
>
> I have a 1998 Mustang V6 and have the tape player with CD Player. Does this
> automatically mean I have the Mach 460 sound system?
No. Mach460 systems have door pillar speakers that say "Mach460" on
them, as well as the rear deck speakers. The Mach460 system was an
option on both coupe and GT model in 1998.
Joe Breitenbach
rating is virtually useless, since nobody listens to sine waves at full
power for very long. (?)
Still, I've got to admit 230 watts RMS isn't bad at all. THD at that
rating is probably around 1.5%, considering the amps' eq curve and the
speaker-level inputs (they do have them, right?).
Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
http://www.tranquilitybase.com/joe
"JD, Mona & The Bear" wrote:
> <*snip*>
Joe Breitenbach
factory head/amp and installed a Kenwood (22 watts RMS x 4 @ < 1% THD). The
sound was _lots_ louder and cleaner, but I lost some tone due to the limited
frequency response of the factory speakers. Ford uses cheap speakers and
eq's the amp to compensate. That _has_ to increase distortion big time.
Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
http://www.tranquilitybase.com/joe
Clint Law <aw...@eosinc.com> wrote in message
news:92665758...@news.remarQ.com...
nytebyte
right with the Mach 460. It seems like it had the potential to sound
good, but something is holding it's true capabilities down. It has
way too much mid-range bass which causes it to sound "boomy" and it
has practically no low end bass, until you start to push up the volume
at which time it may distort.
I'm probably going to get an aftermarket system that sounds better
than the Mach 460. On my 99 GT (which as yet to arrive) I didn't get
the Mach 460. I think you can put 6x8 speakers in the door panels and
6x8 in the rear deck too. Not sure if there are any more mounting
points for speakers on the 99 with the stock stereo.
On Fri, 14 May 1999 00:16:45 GMT, "JD, Mona & The Bear"
<j...@encompass.net> wrote:
>Snipp
JD, Mona & The Bear
replacing some of the speakers in our Mach system. Any suggestions?
Crutchfield will probably be the supplier.
Will it/does it sound any better?
Clint Law
JD, Mona & The Bear wrote in message <373CA9...@encompass.net>...
>Which brings up a question I've had for a while, Clint. Considering
>replacing some of the speakers in our Mach system. Any suggestions?
>Crutchfield will probably be the supplier.
>
>Will it/does it sound any better?
First - you can do a lot better and normally cheaper than Cruthcfield. I
would try and find a good local car audio shop - depending on how big your
community is you should have at least one (Here in Jacksonville, IL Pop.
20,000 we have two). You will want to get a 5 1/4" component set. You will
need some adapters to allow the 5.25" speakers to be put into the 6"x8"
holes though (Don't bother trying to find good accurate 6x8s - I don't think
they exist) - which is one place were a good car audio shop can make some
for your car, rather cheaply (or free). I really like the Alpine DDDrive
components (and the Coax's for that matter) - for a realitavely low power
setup. The are very, very accurate, and also very efficient. The 5.25"s
handle about 50W RMS each, if I recall correctly (They should run about $200
a pair for the woofers and tweeters - not bad at all for the quaility,
probably the best value out there). If you want something to handle more
power, the Diamond Hex and JL Audio evolutions are very, very nice (For
about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run 4x50w or so -
there you have tons of choices. Alpine, MTX and Sony are just a few
companies that make very good, clean amps. This is one place you definately
don't want to skimp on - the amp is just as important to overall sound
quality as the speakers. I would recomend an Apline MRV-F505 (I think,
whatever Alpine Pro series comes close to 50Wx4 at 14.4V) - extremely clean,
powerful, and they look real nice also. Expect to pay around $400 for an
amp to power the 4 component sets. The head unit is up to you. Alpine
makes the best head units out there (according to pretty much everyone), but
they aren't cheap. I have a Sony CDX-C460 and a CDX-C480 and I really like
them both - the C480 cost about $250 last Christmas.
If you do pretty much what I said, you system will sound a lot bette- more
accurate, more volume capability, and a lot cleaner sound. Low end Bass and
High treble will be *a lot* better. If you desire slightly more low end
Bass (but not earth shaking) I highly recomend a JL Audio Stealthbox that
will hold 1 JL Audio 10W4 subwoofer - it is pretty much undetectable in the
trunk - looks like it cam from the factory. The single 10" Woofer is by no
means overpowering - but it will add a good amount of low end bass. (Also,
you can keep the speakers inside the car from running quit as low frequency
and thus save some life on them - especially at high volumes - this is where
amps with built in cross overs (like the Apline Expert series) come in very
handy). You may think that country doesn't have a lot of Bass (I know a lot
of people don't), but listen to "Rodeo" sometime with a good system - and
you will apreciate the difference.
Greg Davis
the forward pod tweeters are mono (both playing same information) and
the woofers in the rear are also mono? That's what I read with
the 'mono-amp' statement. Pls let us know.
Also, are the pod spkrs really just tweeters, or are the midrange?
Thanks, greg
In article <7hf4dc$7pn$4...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Joe Breitenbach
> First - you can do a lot better and normally cheaper than Cruthcfield.
Probably right. Crutchfield is great for convenience and one-stop
shopping, although you'll pay for it (which I personally don't mind).
> I would try and find a good local car audio shop - depending on how big your
> community is you should have at least one (Here in Jacksonville, IL Pop.
> 20,000 we have two). You will want to get a 5 1/4" component set. You will
> need some adapters to allow the 5.25" speakers to be put into the 6"x8"
> holes though (Don't bother trying to find good accurate 6x8s - I don't think
> they exist)
Sorry to disagree, Clint, but there are plenty of decent 6x8s around.
Polk, Kenwood, Blaupunkt, etc. Any of those 6x8s will sound tons better
then the Ford crap.
> - which is one place were a good car audio shop can make some
> for your car, rather cheaply (or free). I really like the Alpine DDDrive
> components (and the Coax's for that matter) - for a realitavely low power
> setup. The are very, very accurate, and also very efficient. The 5.25"s
> handle about 50W RMS each, if I recall correctly (They should run about $200
> a pair for the woofers and tweeters - not bad at all for the quaility,
> probably the best value out there). If you want something to handle more
> power, the Diamond Hex and JL Audio evolutions are very, very nice (For
> about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run 4x50w or so -
> there you have tons of choices. Alpine, MTX and Sony are just a few
> companies that make very good, clean amps. This is one place you definately
> don't want to skimp on - the amp is just as important to overall sound
> quality as the speakers. I would recomend an Apline MRV-F505 (I think,
> whatever Alpine Pro series comes close to 50Wx4 at 14.4V) - extremely clean,
> powerful, and they look real nice also. Expect to pay around $400 for an
> amp to power the 4 component sets. The head unit is up to you. Alpine
> makes the best head units out there (according to pretty much everyone), but
> they aren't cheap. I have a Sony CDX-C460 and a CDX-C480 and I really like
> them both - the C480 cost about $250 last Christmas.
Way into big bucks here. If all JD's looking for is better speakers,
I'd think that the best bet is to buy some decent aftermarket ones in
the same size as the originals.
> If you do pretty much what I said, you system will sound a lot bette- more
> accurate, more volume capability, and a lot cleaner sound.
...and cost a lot more.
> Low end Bass and
> High treble will be *a lot* better. If you desire slightly more low end
> Bass (but not earth shaking) I highly recomend a JL Audio Stealthbox that
> will hold 1 JL Audio 10W4 subwoofer - it is pretty much undetectable in the
> trunk - looks like it cam from the factory. The single 10" Woofer is by no
> means overpowering - but it will add a good amount of low end bass. (Also,
> you can keep the speakers inside the car from running quit as low frequency
> and thus save some life on them - especially at high volumes - this is where
> amps with built in cross overs (like the Apline Expert series) come in very
> handy). You may think that country doesn't have a lot of Bass (I know a lot
> of people don't), but listen to "Rodeo" sometime with a good system - and
> you will apreciate the difference.
It all comes down to a balance between cost and listening quality. Of
course, you could always turn off the stereo and listen to the V-8...
Yella99GT
quaility,
<snip>
- (For>about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run 4x50w
<snip>
Expect to pay around $400 for an amp to power the 4 component sets.
>> The head unit ... cost about $250 last Christmas.
This is getting close to a Motorsport supercharger : ) Just kidding - I
appreciate awesome, accurate, clean sound too, but it will take 2nd priority to
performance.
-Ken
'99 Mustang GT (chrome yellow)
Steeda Triax shifter
K&N, Pro-M 77 MAF
Eibach Pro Kit
March ram-air kit
On the way:
ASP underdrive pulleys
Steeda timing adjuster
Future plans:
Bassani X pipe w/ cats
94GT
>
>What's the RMS power and THD on those amps? I'll bet the spec power ratings
>are peak ratings at something like 4% THD...
RMS is 230, max of 460 (hence the name.) I'm sorry but I don't know what THD
is. My roommate is the one who's into stereos (a great deal, in fact, but
unfortunately, he's also into import SUVs.)
>Joe
>Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
>http://www.tranquilitybase.com/joe
>
>
Yella99GT
>Good info, can you please clarify something. Do you mean to say that
>the forward pod tweeters are mono (both playing same information) and
>the woofers in the rear are also mono? That's what I read with
>the 'mono-amp' statement. Pls let us know.
>
>Also, are the pod spkrs really just tweeters, or are the midrange?
>Thanks, greg
Greg - mono amps are dedicated to one channel of sound, as opposed to other
amps that power 2 or 4 channels. The tweeters are playing stereo signals, but
the left is amplified by a separate component than the right. The
amplification has nothing to do with the information on the signal, which
contains stereo separation. Put some juice into those mono amps so you don't
have to hear that damn hiss in your throttle body : ) Hope this helps...
Greg Davis
Wiring Diagrams Manual. Here is what I came up with (below). It appears
that the two front pod speakers are commoned (mono) and the rear
woofers are also commoned (mono). It's hard to believe that the pods
play mono (I can see the woofers doing that because low-freq audio does
not need seperation). Any comments?
- Two 2.5" midrange/ tweeters, located in the door pods and two in rear
shelf (or speaker enclosures in cnvt)
- Two 2.5" midrange/ tweeters, located in the rear shelf (or speaker
enclosures in cnvt)
- Two 5"x7" midrange speakers, located in the doors.
- Two 6"x8" woofer speakers, in rear shelf (or speaker enclosures in
cnvt)
- One dual-channel 65-watt amplifier, in center console.
- Two mono 80-watt amplifiers, in trunk (or behind backseat in cnvt)
- One AM/FM cassette stereo, optional separate CD player - to be placed
underneath head unit.
The dual-channel stereo amp powers the door midrange speakers
The dual-channel stereo amp powers the rear midrange/tweeter speakers
The left rear mono amplifier powers the door pod 'super-sound'
midrange/ tweeters (in mono)
The right rear mono amplifier powers the rear subwoofers (in mono)
rsewe...@amteva.com wrote:
> Does anyone have spec's on the Mach 460 sound system? Any help would
be
> appreciated. Thanks.
> = Richard S =
JD, Mona & The Bear
> It all comes down to a balance between cost and listening quality. Of
> course, you could always turn off the stereo and listen to the V-8...
You got that right! Thanks Clint, Joe; I'll make a hardcopy and take a
close look at everything you both have suggested. There aren't any
decent stores around this one-horse town, so I may have to take a road
trip to have a look at this stuff.
I remember putting in Pioneer componants into the 6-speaker OEM setup in
my 4-banger '89 LX Weeniemobile, with a Clarion head, and WOW, it
sounded outstanding...better than the Mach setup, I'm afraid. I truly
suspect the speakers are the biggest limitation.
Thanks, both of ya.
Bower Family
fact that Ford seems to use some sort of equalization to make up for
cheap speakers ruin the sound if good speakers are installed? Anyone
done this? Seems cheaper than replacing ALL of it!
Biggest complaint I have - while the subs are adequate, the mid range
and highs distort at only modest volume levels, just when the subs start
to rock. The pillar speakers - if they are for mid to high frequencies,
then they seem to be the first place to start. Comments, anyone?
- Dave
'99 Cobra Coupe (Rio Red, Charcoal) no mods yet
'93 Suburban (family taxi)
'84 Accord (driver's ed car)
Joe Breitenbach wrote:
>
good stuff.....
Clint Law
Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373CFAB9...@bellsouth.net>...
>Clint Law wrote:
>> First - you can do a lot better and normally cheaper than Cruthcfield.
>
>Probably right. Crutchfield is great for convenience and one-stop
>shopping, although you'll pay for it (which I personally don't mind).
>
>> I would try and find a good local car audio shop - depending on how big
your
>> community is you should have at least one (Here in Jacksonville, IL Pop.
>> 20,000 we have two). You will want to get a 5 1/4" component set. You
will
>> need some adapters to allow the 5.25" speakers to be put into the 6"x8"
>> holes though (Don't bother trying to find good accurate 6x8s - I don't
think
>> they exist)
>
>Sorry to disagree, Clint, but there are plenty of decent 6x8s around.
>Polk, Kenwood, Blaupunkt, etc. Any of those 6x8s will sound tons better
>then the Ford crap.
But tons worse (and generally more expensive) than a good 5.25" (Or 6.5", if
you don't mind a little cutting) Componenet set. Keep in mind that I'm only
considering component sets here, not coax speakers - components generally
sound much better.
>
>> - which is one place were a good car audio shop can make some
>> for your car, rather cheaply (or free). I really like the Alpine DDDrive
>> components (and the Coax's for that matter) - for a realitavely low power
>> setup. The are very, very accurate, and also very efficient. The 5.25"s
>> handle about 50W RMS each, if I recall correctly (They should run about
$200
>> a pair for the woofers and tweeters - not bad at all for the quaility,
>> probably the best value out there). If you want something to handle more
>> power, the Diamond Hex and JL Audio evolutions are very, very nice (For
>> about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run 4x50w or
so -
>> there you have tons of choices. Alpine, MTX and Sony are just a few
>> companies that make very good, clean amps. This is one place you
definately
>> don't want to skimp on - the amp is just as important to overall sound
>> quality as the speakers. I would recomend an Apline MRV-F505 (I think,
>> whatever Alpine Pro series comes close to 50Wx4 at 14.4V) - extremely
clean,
>> powerful, and they look real nice also. Expect to pay around $400 for an
>> amp to power the 4 component sets. The head unit is up to you. Alpine
>> makes the best head units out there (according to pretty much everyone),
but
>> they aren't cheap. I have a Sony CDX-C460 and a CDX-C480 and I really
like
>> them both - the C480 cost about $250 last Christmas.
>
>Way into big bucks here. If all JD's looking for is better speakers,
>I'd think that the best bet is to buy some decent aftermarket ones in
>the same size as the originals.
The Mach system doesn't sound all that bad. Everything is eq'ed and
compensated for each other, and it does a fairly good job. If all your
doing is replacing them with some realitavely cheap amps and some 6"x8" Cox
speakers your system will not sound better - and you would have been a lot
better off just saving up your money for when you can do it right.
Keep in mind with the Mach system if you want it to sound any better after
you switch stuff out, you have to replace the amps with the speakers.
>> If you do pretty much what I said, you system will sound a lot bette-
more
>> accurate, more volume capability, and a lot cleaner sound.
>
>...and cost a lot more.
Well? No one said it was going to be cheap. IF you are going to do things
right, and end up with a decent sounding system (read: Better than stock)
you are going to have to invest some money.
Clint Law
Bower Family wrote in message <373D9854...@snospamonic.net>...
>Ok, the Mach can be improved. Let's say I replace the speakers. Will the
>fact that Ford seems to use some sort of equalization to make up for
>cheap speakers ruin the sound if good speakers are installed? Anyone
>done this? Seems cheaper than replacing ALL of it!
Yes, it will soound worse.
>Biggest complaint I have - while the subs are adequate, the mid range
>and highs distort at only modest volume levels, just when the subs start
>to rock. The pillar speakers - if they are for mid to high frequencies,
>then they seem to be the first place to start. Comments, anyone?
A lot of the distortion in the Mach system comes from the head unit
(especialy in the tweeters - also keep in mind the factory unit rolls off
bass at hgih volume levels, making it take longer for the subs to kick in).
The first place to start is the head unit - no question.
Clint Law
Yella99GT wrote in message <19990515092954...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>>> - $200 a pair for the woofers and tweeters - not bad at all for the
>quaility,
><snip>
> - (For>about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run
4x50w
><snip>
>Expect to pay around $400 for an amp to power the 4 component sets.
>>> The head unit ... cost about $250 last Christmas.
>
>This is getting close to a Motorsport supercharger : ) Just kidding - I
>appreciate awesome, accurate, clean sound too, but it will take 2nd
priority to
>performance.
Of course, diffferent people have different priorities. It is howver, just
as stupid or incompetant to do a half assed sound system as a half assed
engine mod. Either do it right - or wait till you can do it right. It will
save you headaches and money in the long run.
Joe Breitenbach
> >Polk, Kenwood, Blaupunkt, etc. Any of those 6x8s will sound tons better
> >then the Ford crap.
>
> But tons worse (and generally more expensive) than a good 5.25" (Or 6.5", if
> you don't mind a little cutting) Componenet set. Keep in mind that I'm only
> considering component sets here, not coax speakers - components generally
> sound much better.
Components are great sounding, but they're not as efficient as regular
coaxes. Again, it's a tradeoff. BTW, I've never seen a 6x8 component
woofer, only coaxes. The ultimate setup would be to have a four-way
system (tweeter, upper-mid, mid-bass, subwoofer) with each component
being run by a separate amp. Crossovers would all be at the preamp-out
level, so only the frequencies going to the particular speaker get
amplified. Obviously, the head unit and crossover/eq units would have
to be ultra-quiet with at least 4 volt outputs.
As far as a simple speaker upgrade, I still think the best thing to do
is to replace the factory units with better quality aftermarket coaxes
(or triaxes) of the same size. The sound will generally be louder,
brighter, and deeper due to the increased efficiency and frequency
response; if it's too much you can simply back off the treble and bass a
bit.
> The Mach system doesn't sound all that bad. Everything is eq'ed and
> compensated for each other, and it does a fairly good job. If all your
> doing is replacing them with some realitavely cheap amps and some 6"x8" Cox
> speakers your system will not sound better - and you would have been a lot
> better off just saving up your money for when you can do it right.
Definitely. However, replacing the stock speakers with decent ones can
be the start to building a real nice system.
> Keep in mind with the Mach system if you want it to sound any better after
> you switch stuff out, you have to replace the amps with the speakers.
Don't agree at all. I've never heard a system that didn't benefit from
better speakers. As I said above, all you have to do is back off the
treble, bass, and volume a bit. I'd bet the Mach's amp eq boosts the
bass at around 100-120hz and the treble at around 8-10khz.
> >> If you do pretty much what I said, you system will sound a lot bette-
> more
> >> accurate, more volume capability, and a lot cleaner sound.
> >
> >...and cost a lot more.
>
> Well? No one said it was going to be cheap. IF you are going to do things
> right, and end up with a decent sounding system (read: Better than stock)
> you are going to have to invest some money.
Agreed. But, there are various options available at different costs
resulting in different degrees of improved sound quality. Just like
engine mods.
Joe Breitenbach
> Of course, diffferent people have different priorities. It is howver, just
> as stupid or incompetant to do a half assed sound system as a half assed
> engine mod. Either do it right - or wait till you can do it right. It will
> save you headaches and money in the long run.
Yes, but like engine mods, things can be done in stages.
Roger Marino
Good luck in getting some interpretable specs, i.e.:
---"MACH 460 features three external amps: a 60-watt parametrically
equalized amp (individual eq. in coupe and convertable models) with two
subwoofer amps rated at 85 watts each for 230 watts RMS - for a total of 460
watts peak power (2% THD)"---
reads like a bunch of "baffle them with bullsheet". I believe JD is
quoting the above from a sales brochure (I'm not dogging JD, just the co
putting out the brochure). This is the first time I have ever seen any
company use a 2%THD measurement. Maybe 230w @ 2%THD with 460w max power
(max distortion as the speakers are being destroyed). I'm guessing 115w/ch
at 2%THD or about 95-100w/ch at .5%THD. Can anyone confirm or correct me on
this?
When we first started looking at a new car back in 94, a determined sales
person insisted on demonstrating the MACH 460 system (even tho we told him
we weren't interested) in one of their 95 GT's. The other sales people &
some customers looked at him as he cranked up the volume on the showroom
floor. After listening to it, I looked at my wife, chuckled & we just
shook our heads. The salesperson seemed dumbfounded by our actions. He
asked why & we showed him our system in our 90LX. (I pulled the system out
of that LX & had it installed in our 95GT). I'll spare you the individual
model #'s, wattage etc., but ours would be a MACH 740 at .5%THD. I'll say
that I am very happy with Pioneer speakers (3ways, 4ways & tweeters),
Kenwood head unit & Kenwood amps (2 of them are 15 & 16 years old, that's
right 15 & 16 without a major breakdown), Kenwood Electronic Graphic
Equalizer/Analyzer (passive, 10 years old - no problem) and a 10" Kicker
Solobaric sub. Our system isn't designed to wake the neighborhood, but it
does eliminate the wind and road noise when we have our windows down (I just
have to keep a close eye on the gauges):-))
Basically, a good way of judging the MACH 460 is to bring in a cd (maybe a
tape or tune in to your favorite radio station if you listen to the radio a
lot) & play it the way you like to listen to it. If you are totally happy
with it, go for it. If not, there are plenty of other aftermarket options.
Crutchfield http://sony.crutchfield.com/S-OD1OPsn04Lp/index.html will give
you an idea on some prices. It's a nice catalog to browse thru and get
ideas from. The local Circuit City here will beat any local non-sale price.
Other stores will match or beat prices, too. For those in the military,
Circuit City will even try to match the px/bx/AAFES catalog price. Make
sure you let them know the total price so they can calculate in their sales
tax to match the AAFES (no tax) price. We got a good deal on a Kenwood cd
changer (AAFES catalog item) that way and we had it right then and there.
Sorry about the venting portion...Still, I hope you get a valid answer to
your question.
Bleifuss
95GT AODE
<rsewe...@amteva.com> wrote in message
news:7heu9p$eqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Clint Law
Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373E08B1...@bellsouth.net>...
>Clint Law wrote:
>>
>> Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373CFAB9...@bellsouth.net>...
>> >Sorry to disagree, Clint, but there are plenty of decent 6x8s around.
>> >Polk, Kenwood, Blaupunkt, etc. Any of those 6x8s will sound tons better
>> >then the Ford crap.
>>
>> But tons worse (and generally more expensive) than a good 5.25" (Or 6.5",
if
>> you don't mind a little cutting) Componenet set. Keep in mind that I'm
only
>> considering component sets here, not coax speakers - components generally
>> sound much better.
>
>Components are great sounding, but they're not as efficient as regular
>coaxes. Again, it's a tradeoff. BTW, I've never seen a 6x8 component
>woofer, only coaxes. The ultimate setup would be to have a four-way
>system (tweeter, upper-mid, mid-bass, subwoofer) with each component
>being run by a separate amp. Crossovers would all be at the preamp-out
>level, so only the frequencies going to the particular speaker get
>amplified. Obviously, the head unit and crossover/eq units would have
>to be ultra-quiet with at least 4 volt outputs.
The level of the Compenent set depends greatly on it's efficiency.
Components are inherently more expensive to make, so a similarly priced
comp. and cox speaker will have the coax with signifigantly better
materials/design and woolah better effieciency. The Alpine DDDrive C.S.
speakers are around 90% Efficient, and have a table flat frequency response
curve (From 40 HZ to 30,000HZ, +- 1db BTW).
>As far as a simple speaker upgrade, I still think the best thing to do
>is to replace the factory units with better quality aftermarket coaxes
>(or triaxes) of the same size. The sound will generally be louder,
>brighter, and deeper due to the increased efficiency and frequency
>response; if it's too much you can simply back off the treble and bass a
>bit.
But a simple speaker upgrade is out of the question with the Mach Amps.
Your system will simply sound much worse. the first apparent mod is a new
head unit (which greatly helps sound quality, BTW) -after that you pretty
much start from scratch.
>> The Mach system doesn't sound all that bad. Everything is eq'ed and
>> compensated for each other, and it does a fairly good job. If all your
>> doing is replacing them with some realitavely cheap amps and some 6"x8"
Cox
>> speakers your system will not sound better - and you would have been a
lot
>> better off just saving up your money for when you can do it right.
>
>Definitely. However, replacing the stock speakers with decent ones can
>be the start to building a real nice system.
But until you replace the Amps - it will sound worse (unless you hook up an
external EQ to make the curves realtively flat -and one that can do 8
channels with speaker level input will cost quite a bit).
>> Keep in mind with the Mach system if you want it to sound any better
after
>> you switch stuff out, you have to replace the amps with the speakers.
>
>Don't agree at all. I've never heard a system that didn't benefit from
>better speakers. As I said above, all you have to do is back off the
>treble, bass, and volume a bit. I'd bet the Mach's amp eq boosts the
>bass at around 100-120hz and the treble at around 8-10khz.
But it does it at about a 18 db/Octave curve. That is clean off most eq's
levels - and can make things sound real crappy (trust me on this one).
Joe Breitenbach
> The level of the Compenent set depends greatly on it's efficiency.
> Components are inherently more expensive to make, so a similarly priced
> comp. and cox speaker will have the coax with signifigantly better
> materials/design and woolah better effieciency. The Alpine DDDrive C.S.
> speakers are around 90% Efficient, and have a table flat frequency response
> curve (From 40 HZ to 30,000HZ, +- 1db BTW).
Clint, where does the "efficiency" rating you mention come from, and how
is it measured? I always look at the sound pressure level to get a
measurement. 91 or 92 is pretty good; 88 or 89 is low efficiency.
> But a simple speaker upgrade is out of the question with the Mach Amps.
> Your system will simply sound much worse. the first apparent mod is a new
> head unit (which greatly helps sound quality, BTW) -after that you pretty
> much start from scratch.
You'll have to educate me as to why. I can't imagine why a more
efficient speaker with an improved frequency response will sound worse.
The speaker is probably the most inefficient link in the whole musical
reproduction chain. Replacing it with a better unit would make the most
audible difference, I'd think.
> But until you replace the Amps - it will sound worse (unless you hook up an
> external EQ to make the curves realtively flat -and one that can do 8
> channels with speaker level input will cost quite a bit).
Again, why?
> But it does it at about a 18 db/Octave curve. That is clean off most eq's
> levels - and can make things sound real crappy (trust me on this one).
Why does more tone sound crappy? In effect, putting in more efficient
speakers with an improved frequency response is sort of like turning the
volume, treble, and bass controls up. IOW, the perceived loudness
increases along with the upper and lower frequencies. Compensation is
possible by decreasing the volume and tone. Sure, the tone control
curve isn't the same as the speaker's response curve, but I seriously
doubt they'd be that much different to produce a bad sound. The
perceived frequency response of my factory speakers was diminished when
I put in my Kenwood, but I compensated by maxing out the tone controls.
Now, the perceived frequency response is almost back to where the stock
head unit was. Lose some here, push some there.
Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Yella99GT
>as stupid or incompetant to do a half assed sound system as a half assed
>engine mod. Either do it right - or wait till you can do it right. It will
>save you headaches and money in the long run.
>
Agreed. Couldn't have said it any better...
-Ken
'99 Mustang GT (chrome yellow)
Steeda Triax shifter
K&N, Pro-M 77 MAF
Eibach Pro Kit
On the way:
Clint Law
Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373EBFD6...@bellsouth.net>...
>Clint Law wrote:
>> The level of the Compenent set depends greatly on it's efficiency.
>> Components are inherently more expensive to make, so a similarly priced
>> comp. and cox speaker will have the coax with signifigantly better
>> materials/design and woolah better effieciency. The Alpine DDDrive C.S.
>> speakers are around 90% Efficient, and have a table flat frequency
response
>> curve (From 40 HZ to 30,000HZ, +- 1db BTW).
>
>Clint, where does the "efficiency" rating you mention come from, and how
>is it measured? I always look at the sound pressure level to get a
>measurement. 91 or 92 is pretty good; 88 or 89 is low efficiency.
The SPL is measued in %. According to Alpine the 5.25" C.S. are rated at
91, and the 6.5" are at 92. By comparison, the same materials in the same
size are 88 and 89 respectavely in Coax speakers.
It's not so much the added tone, most people like some boost several places
throughout the frequency range -but the placement and severity of the boost.
For example, low bass is not heavily boosted (the 6x8" woofers do a pretty
good job at that), but the frequency range many voices and instuments are in
is given a a very steep boost (neither the 6x8" or the 2.5" spoeakers are
ideal for making midrange sounds) - about 18 db/Octave - that is about
equivalent to the hghest DBass level on a Sony head unit (go to a store and
turn one all the way up and imagine if you want voices and certain
instruments magnified that much). Also, I take it you had simple 6x8"s
(with whizzer cones) andmaybe a premium sound system in your car? That
speaker actually will reproduce many sounds *much* better than the mach
6x8"s which are designed for lower bass, and the 2.5" tweeters are not
competant enough to make up the difference.
Trust, I know a few people with Mach460s who have tried to just replace the
speakers, and I have listened to their system afterwards and it *always*
sounds worse (In some cases much worse). About the cheapest and most
effective modification to the Mach system without tearing it out would be to
put in a good high end head unit (The factory one rolls off bass at volume,
and also doean't have real clean sound) - you will notice a good difference
in sound quality. After that, add a subwoofer if you like - then the only
other option is to tear it all out and start over.
Joe Breitenbach
Clint Law wrote:
> The SPL is measued in %. According to Alpine the 5.25" C.S. are rated at
> 91, and the 6.5" are at 92. By comparison, the same materials in the same
> size are 88 and 89 respectavely in Coax speakers.
I thought that the standard SPL measurement was the db level of a sine
wave at 1 watt. Never heard it expressed as a percentage.
> It's not so much the added tone, most people like some boost several places
> throughout the frequency range -but the placement and severity of the boost.
> For example, low bass is not heavily boosted (the 6x8" woofers do a pretty
> good job at that), but the frequency range many voices and instuments are in
> is given a a very steep boost (neither the 6x8" or the 2.5" spoeakers are
> ideal for making midrange sounds) - about 18 db/Octave - that is about
> equivalent to the hghest DBass level on a Sony head unit (go to a store and
> turn one all the way up and imagine if you want voices and certain
> instruments magnified that much). Also, I take it you had simple 6x8"s
> (with whizzer cones) andmaybe a premium sound system in your car? That
> speaker actually will reproduce many sounds *much* better than the mach
> 6x8"s which are designed for lower bass, and the 2.5" tweeters are not
> competant enough to make up the difference.
>
> Trust, I know a few people with Mach460s who have tried to just replace the
> speakers, and I have listened to their system afterwards and it *always*
> sounds worse (In some cases much worse). About the cheapest and most
> effective modification to the Mach system without tearing it out would be to
> put in a good high end head unit (The factory one rolls off bass at volume,
> and also doean't have real clean sound) - you will notice a good difference
> in sound quality. After that, add a subwoofer if you like - then the only
> other option is to tear it all out and start over.
I've never heard a Mach460 with different speakers, so I don't have
first-hand knowledge of what it sounds like. But if what you say is
true - that the amps are _so_ heavily eq'd that the stock speakers have
special response curves, there's no way in hell that any modifcation to
that system save replacing the entire thing will sound good. I guess it
comes down to either keep it as is or swap the entire thing out.
BTW, most units that have a "loudness" boost roll off the effect
somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 volume. Most of the factory Ford units
have built-in loudness that you can't turn off.
Clint Law
Joe Breitenbach wrote in message <373F2D16...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>
>Clint Law wrote:
>> The SPL is measued in %. According to Alpine the 5.25" C.S. are rated at
>> 91, and the 6.5" are at 92. By comparison, the same materials in the
same
>> size are 88 and 89 respectavely in Coax speakers.
>
>I thought that the standard SPL measurement was the db level of a sine
>wave at 1 watt. Never heard it expressed as a percentage.
I thought the standard sensitivity measurement was the loudness (in db) of
the sine wave, divied by the wattage. That would yeild a percent, DB/Watt -
At least that's what I always thought. Either way it doesn't make much
difference - on the other hand though, I don't see how any speaker can make
90 or so DB out of a single watt.
Like I said, it doens't really matter in the long run, I guess.
>> It's not so much the added tone, most people like some boost several
places
<Snip>
>> and also doean't have real clean sound) - you will notice a good
difference
>> in sound quality. After that, add a subwoofer if you like - then the
only
>> other option is to tear it all out and start over.
>
>I've never heard a Mach460 with different speakers, so I don't have
>first-hand knowledge of what it sounds like. But if what you say is
>true - that the amps are _so_ heavily eq'd that the stock speakers have
>special response curves, there's no way in hell that any modifcation to
>that system save replacing the entire thing will sound good. I guess it
>comes down to either keep it as is or swap the entire thing out.
That's basically what I was saying. For this reason, whenever people ask me
whether to get the Mach460 or not I a say if their not an audiophile and
don't car that much about sound - get it. It isn't that expensive,a dn
sounds quite noticeable better than the normal system (which almost everyone
can appreciate in my experience). If you care more about sound, just get
the standard system because modifying the Mach system often means a complete
tearout - so why pay the extra money at the dealer?
>BTW, most units that have a "loudness" boost roll off the effect
>somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 volume. Most of the factory Ford units
>have built-in loudness that you can't turn off.
When I just swapped out my Ford head unit for a good Sony one, I immediately
noticed the added Bass at higher volume levels. The trebel was a lot cleaner
and everything was more accurate as well (I got a Sony CDX-C480 for the
stang, it is a pretty good unit, veyr accurate digital-audio (1 bit
regulated Burr/Brown if I remeber correctly) converter that is noticeably
cleaner than the Ford one - especialy in mid-upper frequencies).
Joe Breitenbach
> I thought the standard sensitivity measurement was the loudness (in db) of
> the sine wave, divied by the wattage. That would yeild a percent,
DB/Watt -
> At least that's what I always thought. Either way it doesn't make much
> difference - on the other hand though, I don't see how any speaker can
make
> 90 or so DB out of a single watt.
>
> Like I said, it doens't really matter in the long run, I guess.
Yup. As long as it's a "standard", then all you have to do is look at the
number. Higher SPL is louder. Simple.
> That's basically what I was saying. For this reason, whenever people ask
me
> whether to get the Mach460 or not I a say if their not an audiophile and
> don't car that much about sound - get it. It isn't that expensive,a dn
> sounds quite noticeable better than the normal system (which almost
everyone
> can appreciate in my experience). If you care more about sound, just get
> the standard system because modifying the Mach system often means a
complete
> tearout - so why pay the extra money at the dealer?
IOW, the Mach is a take-it-or-leave-it thing, I guess. You can't upgrade it
in stages because you'd be hard pressed to find "compatible" components?
> When I just swapped out my Ford head unit for a good Sony one, I
immediately
> noticed the added Bass at higher volume levels. The trebel was a lot
cleaner
> and everything was more accurate as well (I got a Sony CDX-C480 for the
> stang, it is a pretty good unit, veyr accurate digital-audio (1 bit
> regulated Burr/Brown if I remeber correctly) converter that is noticeably
> cleaner than the Ford one - especialy in mid-upper frequencies).
That Sony you bought is a nice unit - very clean. Undoubtedly, it's way
better then the factory head. Now, I'll bet any distortion you hear comes
from the Mach amp/speakers.
Puck
Clint Law <aw...@eosinc.com> wrote
> Joe Breitenbach wrote
> >
> >I thought that the standard SPL measurement was the db level of a sine
> >wave at 1 watt. Never heard it expressed as a percentage.
>
>
> the sine wave, divied by the wattage. That would yeild a percent,
DB/Watt -
> At least that's what I always thought. Either way it doesn't make much
> difference - on the other hand though, I don't see how any speaker can
make
> 90 or so DB out of a single watt.
Joe is correct. Efficiency is measured in db, with 1 watt input, at 1 meter
distance. It is not a percentage.
Some speakers can do better than 100db@1W/1M, but you probably won't find
them in a car. Because they need to be more rugged than comparable home
gear, car speakers tend to carry more cone mass. Heavier cone = less
efficient.
Carry on...
RG
nytebyte
(I didn't get the Mach 460 due to it's lackluster sound). I've seen
some pretty decent ones by reputable manufacturers (like blaupunkt,
Infiniti, Polk, etc..). Why would the 5.25's sound better than the
6x8's? I've seen some 3 way 6x8's and their larger woofer cone would
suggest that I'd get better, lower bass response.
On Fri, 14 May 1999 20:58:51 -0500, "Clint Law" <aw...@eosinc.com>
wrote:
>
>JD, Mona & The Bear wrote in message <373CA9...@encompass.net>...
>>Which brings up a question I've had for a while, Clint. Considering
>>replacing some of the speakers in our Mach system. Any suggestions?
>>Crutchfield will probably be the supplier.
>>
>>Will it/does it sound any better?
>
>
>First - you can do a lot better and normally cheaper than Cruthcfield. I
>would try and find a good local car audio shop - depending on how big your
>community is you should have at least one (Here in Jacksonville, IL Pop.
>20,000 we have two). You will want to get a 5 1/4" component set. You will
>need some adapters to allow the 5.25" speakers to be put into the 6"x8"
>holes though (Don't bother trying to find good accurate 6x8s - I don't think
>they exist) - which is one place were a good car audio shop can make some
>for your car, rather cheaply (or free). I really like the Alpine DDDrive
>components (and the Coax's for that matter) - for a realitavely low power
>setup. The are very, very accurate, and also very efficient. The 5.25"s
>handle about 50W RMS each, if I recall correctly (They should run about $200
>a pair for the woofers and tweeters - not bad at all for the quaility,
>probably the best value out there). If you want something to handle more
>power, the Diamond Hex and JL Audio evolutions are very, very nice (For
>about $400-$800 a pair). You will want a nice clean amp to run 4x50w or so -
>there you have tons of choices. Alpine, MTX and Sony are just a few
>companies that make very good, clean amps. This is one place you definately
>don't want to skimp on - the amp is just as important to overall sound
>quality as the speakers. I would recomend an Apline MRV-F505 (I think,
>whatever Alpine Pro series comes close to 50Wx4 at 14.4V) - extremely clean,
>powerful, and they look real nice also. Expect to pay around $400 for an
>amp to power the 4 component sets. The head unit is up to you. Alpine
>makes the best head units out there (according to pretty much everyone), but
>they aren't cheap. I have a Sony CDX-C460 and a CDX-C480 and I really like
>them both - the C480 cost about $250 last Christmas.
>
>If you do pretty much what I said, you system will sound a lot bette- more
>accurate, more volume capability, and a lot cleaner sound. Low end Bass and
Spreadman
<< On my 99 GT (when it gets here) I was planning on putting in 4 6x8's (I
didn't get the Mach 460 due to it's lackluster sound). >>
What are you planning on doing? Replacing the head units? What is it you want
to accomplish? (accurate sound? A bass-mobile? Just something that sounds
better than stock?)
<< I've seen some pretty decent ones by reputable manufacturers (like
blaupunkt, Infiniti, Polk, etc..). >>
True, they are reputable.
<< Why would the 5.25's sound better than the 6x8's? I've seen some 3 way
6x8's and their larger woofer cone would suggest that I'd get better, lower
bass response. >>
True, due to the larger cone area. But typically, 5.25 components (as well as
6.5") are MUCH more efficient, and are MUCH more accurate than a 6x8 (5x7). If
you are planning on adding a sub, go with the 5.25" coaxes or seperates. If
not, look into some REALLY nice 6x8's. More importantly, you should go to as
many car stereo shops, with your favorite music, and listen to every speaker
combination in the building. THEN make your decision based on YOUR field
research. We can only tell you what WE like. We can can give installation
advice and reliability reports....everything else....is up to you. So get
crackin'!!!!! =)
Scott
1999 Chrome Yellow GT (K&N, that's it so far)
http://members.aol.com/spreadman/index.html
"Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stops that hurt."
Greg
the Muck460 system. I put a 5 channel Alpine amp., an Alpine head unit
(that does not have an internal amp.) 6 1/2 components in the rear, 5 1/4
components in the front, and a 10" sub in the trunk. (go with Boston
Acoustics, or a nice set of DEI neo's.)
The 460 system has a small amp. behind the head unit which powers all 4
tweets. And, in the convertible, an amp. to run the left channel woofers,
and another amp. to run the right side woofers for a total of three
external amplifiers. (2 of these are located under where the top fold
down)
I got sick of having to adjust the bass input every time I touched the
volume control.
Also, for you who are going to add an alarm system to your Cobra... You
cannot use any of the existing wiring for the new alarm. For instance, you
have to run a completely seperate wire and pin to the trunk, if you tap
into the existing wires, it will trip your new alarm every 31 minutes when
your car does a self diagnostic. Alarm manufacturers have had this problem
with the '99 Mustangs, and the '99 Chevy suburbans apparently.
Good luck! Greg
FOR SALE: Mach460 sound system. Make any offer.
Joe Breitenbach <jeb...@bellsouth.net> wrote in
<373F2D16...@bellsouth.net>:
>Clint Law wrote:
>> The SPL is measued in %. According to Alpine the 5.25" C.S. are rated
at
>> 91, and the 6.5" are at 92. By comparison, the same materials in the
same
>> size are 88 and 89 respectavely in Coax speakers.
>
>I thought that the standard SPL measurement was the db level of a sine
>wave at 1 watt. Never heard it expressed as a percentage.
>
>> It's not so much the added tone, most people like some boost several
places
>> and also doean't have real clean sound) - you will notice a good
difference
>> in sound quality. After that, add a subwoofer if you like - then the
only
>> other option is to tear it all out and start over.
>
>I've never heard a Mach460 with different speakers, so I don't have
>first-hand knowledge of what it sounds like. But if what you say is
>true - that the amps are _so_ heavily eq'd that the stock speakers have
>special response curves, there's no way in hell that any modifcation to
>that system save replacing the entire thing will sound good. I guess it
>comes down to either keep it as is or swap the entire thing out.
>
>BTW, most units that have a "loudness" boost roll off the effect
>somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 volume. Most of the factory Ford units
>have built-in loudness that you can't turn off.
>
emz
Greg <porte...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:lAC33.29$Wj1....@news.uswest.net...