FMX to C4 here it is
Jack Napier
can anyone confirm that off the top of thier head?
they quoted me $200 to swap in the C4 and install a transcooler.
opinions?
thanks,
Bill S.
Bill S.
Jack Napier
smaller converter and bell housing of the C4. so they suggested puting
the FMX belhousing on the C4, getting a bigger converter and using my
existing flywheel, they said they looked at 4 diff flywheels and
couldnt match it up. and the starter wouldnt even touch the flywheel
for a 302 setup(the C4 came from a 302 and ive got a 351W inthe car)
so now we're adding another 300 bucks for a different converter. no
offense but this is not turning out as easy as posts here made it
sound.
to sum up i had a rebuilt C4 from a 69- 302 with an aftermarket
converter
trying to get it onto a 69- 351W
Bill, does this sound right or are they trying to pad their pockets.?
thanks,
"Bill S." <bil...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<HSr8b.169120$Ay2.41...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Bill S.
351W...The starter is the same for a FMX and a C4 behind a 289/302/351W,
the 157 tooth stamped steel flywheel from Ford is part number M6375-F302
for the small C4 bell housing model , or the 167 tooth M6375G302 for
the larger C4 bell housing model. Which one do you have????? Both of
these items can be cross referenced to what ever local parts store your
using. As for the torque converter, this I am not sure of, best you call
a local Ford dealer, or transmission shop once you figure out which C4
bell housing configuration you have on your hands. Personally, if the
shop has no clue, your better off getting your car out of there as soon
as possible. Most shops would have made the calls already, and figured
things out, instead of coming back to you and making themselves look
incompetent......................
winze
> the shop just told me that they couldnt finda flywheel to match the
> smaller converter and bell housing of the C4. so they suggested puting
> the FMX belhousing on the C4, getting a bigger converter and using my
> existing flywheel, they said they looked at 4 diff flywheels and
> couldnt match it up. and the starter wouldnt even touch the flywheel
> for a 302 setup(the C4 came from a 302 and ive got a 351W inthe car)
> so now we're adding another 300 bucks for a different converter. no
> offense but this is not turning out as easy as posts here made it
> sound.
>
> to sum up i had a rebuilt C4 from a 69- 302 with an aftermarket
> converter
> trying to get it onto a 69- 351W
a fmx bell won't bolt to a c4 ,there are only 2 choices on the flywheel.
1. 164 tooth (big c4) 28 oz balance
2. 157 tooth (small c4) 28 oz balance.
both require the matching bellhousing, they should be available at any parts store.
winze
and the small convertor(157)the bolt patterns on the convertors are
11-7/16 on the big one(164) and 10-1/2 on the small one(157). there is
also 2 styles of bellhousings on c4's,on one type the bell meets the
trans at a sharp angle(looks almost like a manual bell) and the other
style bell meets the trans in one continuous arc(looks almost like
it's part of the trans).it may be possible to redrill the proper
flywheel so your convertor will bolt up to it. The big & small bells
will interchange without modification also. Which bell/trans do you
have?
Mustang_66
$45.00! They won't have it in stock, but can get it overnite, in most areas.
You can get for about $70.00 from Mustangs Unlimited and others...
If this shop can't figure it out, take the car to somebody who knows what a
C-4 looks like, because this place doesn't deserve your business. This swap
is just too easy.
Jack Napier
there and check the numbers
will let you guys know what happens
"Mustang_66" <pford...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<5KQbb.552322$o%2.242883@sccrnsc02>...
Jack Napier
the smaller converter wont fit my flywheel which is the bigger one,
when he said bigger bell i just assumed he ment using the FMX bell, he
was saying they have a bigger C4 bell on hand and will use that, so
needing a bigger converter makes sense now. but they did say they
tried 4 different flywheels, which is still a grey area for me that im
not an expert on. but if my motor has the big flywheel then a smaller
one wont reach the starter and so ill need a bigger converter to
match. The bell is no longer a suspicious issue.
next issue, i want to confirm what i have for a small converter, its
never been used been in my garage for 3 years. there are no stamped
numbers, just painted on numbers that have been repainted over(can
still make them out tho). whats the easiest way to find out what it
is? im going to start looking right now, but will probly need to know
where to look. it was either made by a co. called dragon or the model
is called dragon, dont know which.
thanks,
"Mustang_66" <pford...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<5KQbb.552322$o%2.242883@sccrnsc02>...
winze
> there and check the numbers
>
> will let you guys know what happens
actually there are 5 or more smallblock c4's
1. the original c4 in 64 to 69
2. 70 up big bell case fill
3. 70 up small bell case fill
4. trucks & cars pan fill
5. 75-78 V8 mustang II
theres probably a few more!
Have you driven(to find a Ford part) lately? LOL
winze
> there and check the numbers
here's a link that has some good c4 pics and information.
winze
pattern on the torque convertor is 10-1/2", or use the big bell,big
flywheel and your convertor if the convertor has a bolt pattern of
11-7/16",you'll also need the proper block/starter plate for each
combo,check ebay for the plates.
GEB
> actually there are 5 or more smallblock c4's
>
> 1. the original c4 in 64 to 69
> 2. 70 up big bell case fill
> 3. 70 up small bell case fill
> 4. trucks & cars pan fill
> 5. 75-78 V8 mustang II
>
> theres probably a few more!
Basically, there is actually 3 different small block C4's:
1. Early C4 case fill
2. Late C4 case fill
3. Late C4 pan fill (mainly used in trucks, but some made their way into
some cars)
The difference between the early and late case fill C4 is the type of pump
used. Do you know the difference Winze? The C4 in my Pinto race car is an
early C4 with late model internals. One simple modification was needed to be
done for the upgrade to work, only because of the differences in the front
pump. What was the modification? Anyway, to tell the difference in bell
housings, if you look at the back of the bell housing, if the ribs go from
the top to the bottom, you have a 157 tooth bell. If they only go part way
down (several inches), you have a 164 tooth bell. The Mustang II & Pinto's
used the same C4 tranny, but with a smaller bell housing with a 143 tooth
flex plate. They didn't use a different tranny. They later used the C5
tranny which used a lock up converter.
--
Gary
Drag Racers live by the code set down years ago:
"If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right".
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MadDAWG
Is it a bracket car or roundie round?
MadDAWG
GEB
"MadDAWG" wrote in a message:
> my Pinto race car ....
>
> Is it a bracket car or roundie round?
>
> MadDAWG
Bracket car. Right now I have a stock 84 302 in it, and this past weekend it
ran a 13.21. We still have some more tweaking to do to the suspension. Over
the winter, we're going to make a few changes that should get us down in the
low 12's maybe high 11's next year.
Buzz Haze
It sure doesn't look (or sound) like a 12-13 second car...it's got
BIG potential. I have seen a few other "race-ready" Pinto's &
Mavericks .....I love the look of those cars when they are built up.
Here is my buddy Bob Smith's Super-Pro Pinto
http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00070.JPG
http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00098.JPG
http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00076.JPG
My friend's Maverick (Len-Owner of Lentech Auto)
http://members.rogers.com/purphaze/show0006.JPG
They both run mid 9's "all motor" in the 1/4.
I think you're on the right track with the Pinto. It's a unique
car to race and it's also a crowd pleaser....Bob's Pinto always
attracts a small crowd.
--
Buzz Haze-Ottawa ON
87 5.0 LX Coupe
http://members.rogers.com/buzzhaze
"GEB" <n3...@NOSPAMepix.net> wrote in message >
GEB
> You guys should see the video of this little monster launching.
> It sure doesn't look (or sound) like a 12-13 second car...it's got
> BIG potential. I have seen a few other "race-ready" Pinto's &
> Mavericks .....I love the look of those cars when they are built up.
>
> Here is my buddy Bob Smith's Super-Pro Pinto
> http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00070.JPG
> http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00098.JPG
> http://avs.epix.net/buzzhaze/photos/aug00076.JPG
>
> My friend's Maverick (Len-Owner of Lentech Auto)
> http://members.rogers.com/purphaze/show0006.JPG
> They both run mid 9's "all motor" in the 1/4.
>
> I think you're on the right track with the Pinto. It's a unique
> car to race and it's also a crowd pleaser....Bob's Pinto always
> attracts a small crowd.
>
> --
> Buzz Haze-Ottawa ON
> 87 5.0 LX Coupe
> http://members.rogers.com/buzzhaze
Thanks Buzz for the kind words. Yea, it attracts quite a few people when I
have it to the track. Allot of people can't believe there are Pintos still
around. I chose it for it's size & weight, and for its potential. The last
time I had it to the track, I had quite a few Ford racers stop by to check
out my custom water pump delete setup, and one asked us to make them one.
For those who want to see the video that Buzz seen, can go to
http://avs.epix.net/geb/videos/warpig.mpg But be prepared, it's a pretty
big file. Your best bet is to right click on the link and select "Save
Target As" and download it to your computer, then view it. Now I can't wait
to get it to the body shop to get it painted!
MadDAWG
3rd pic).
MadDAWG
MadDAWG
> Thanks Buzz for the kind words. Yea, it attracts quite a few people when I
> have it to the track. Allot of people can't believe there are Pintos still
> around. I chose it for it's size & weight, and for its potential.
Same here. I have been looking at Pintos, Mustang II, and Mavericks myself.
Just gotta sell my car first which now means a new tranny since it just
crapped out drive. Maybe Buzz could get me a good deal on a new from the guy
with the Maverick lol
MadDAWG
MadDAWG
> have it to the track. Allot of people can't believe there are Pintos still
> around. I chose it for it's size & weight, and for its potential. The last
> time I had it to the track, I had quite a few Ford racers stop by to check
> out my custom water pump delete setup, and one asked us to make them one.
> For those who want to see the video that Buzz seen, can go to
> http://avs.epix.net/geb/videos/warpig.mpg But be prepared, it's a pretty
> big file. Your best bet is to right click on the link and select "Save
> Target As" and download it to your computer, then view it. Now I can't
wait
> to get it to the body shop to get it painted!
>
>
> --
> Gary
> Drag Racers live by the code set down years ago:
> "If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right".
Great work on the video.
What is the weight on your Pinto? One of the reasons I have been looking at
the "little" cars is I have a GMC Sonoma (dad works for GM so the discount
was to much to pass up) and I'd like to keep the towing weight to around
4000 lbs for car and trailer. How buitl up is the 302? I have a 342 short
block and would put a C4 behind it as well. What stall and gear are you
running? I'd think with the part I have avaible to me I should be in the mid
to low 12s once its all sorted out.
thanks
MadDAWG
GEB
>
> What is the weight on your Pinto? One of the reasons I have been looking
at
> the "little" cars is I have a GMC Sonoma (dad works for GM so the discount
> was to much to pass up) and I'd like to keep the towing weight to around
> 4000 lbs for car and trailer. How buitl up is the 302? I have a 342 short
> block and would put a C4 behind it as well. What stall and gear are you
> running? I'd think with the part I have avaible to me I should be in the
mid
> to low 12s once its all sorted out.
>
> thanks
> MadDAWG
Thanks! I haven't had it on the scales yet. I emailed the track owner and
asked about getting it weighed and he told me no problem, just remind him
when I tech it in next time. We're guessing it weighs somewhere between 2000
& 2500 pounds though. The motor in it now is basically a stock 84 302, with
a Torker II intake, with a 750 Holley double pumper carb with 4 corner
adjustment. The converter is a 3000 stall, and now I wish I would have
gotten at least a 4500 stall converter so I could launch it a little harder.
The rear end is an 8" with 4.62's with a full spool.
Yea, with good heads and a Victor Jr. intake on that 342, along with a 750
Holley, I'd bet you could get it into the 11's, provided you can get it to
hook up, and go straight. That's what I've been working on, and why I
started out with the stock 302. Now that I'm satisfied that it will launch
and go down the track straight, I'm about ready to build another motor for
it.
--
Gary
Drag Racers live by the code set down years ago:
"If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right".
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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MadDAWG
Who says drag racers don't have to drive. :)
The weight sounds great. Figuring around 1000 for a trailer I'd be under the
4000lbs.
What rpm are you running thru the traps? I didn't look like you had that
much tire and with 4.62 I bet its really turning.
My drive line would be the 342 with a fla tappet mechanical Comp Cam. Its
around 2...@0.050 with a 106 LCA. My buddies got a 3500 converter and C4
tranny that I could get real cheap. Not to mention his small block MSD
setup. I'd use a Victor jr for sure. Carb size would be based on what I
could come across, but I have never had good luck with a 750 dp for some
reason. I had a 700 and it ran like a rapped ape on my 302s and 351s so if I
have to buy a new one I'd be temped to go that way. I'm thinking it should
make some good power. There is a tubbed Chevette (yes a Chevy) with a 302
that runs high to mid 11s that I'd love to get lined up against. :)
MadDAWG
GEB
Mine red lines around 6200, and that's about what it goes through the traps
at. The slicks are 26 x 8.5 x 15's on 8 x 15 wheels with 4 1/4" back
spacing. That's about all I could get under the car without tubbing it out,
or cutting the fender wells. What is the advertised lift & duration for the
comp cam? You won't be happy unless it is over .500 lift and around .290
duration. Just remember, the bigger the cam, the more carburetion your going
to need. It's always better to go a little bigger than you need, cause you
can always jet it back. Besides, if you ever build up the motor further in
the future, you'll still have enough carb to handle it. But if you plan on
building a Pinto, before you do the V8 transplant, make sure you install
frame connectors first. Also, I installed a set of Traction Master bars for
a Mustang. Don't let anyone tell you that they will bend the frame! I got
proof that that isn't true. Plus I have a couple friends that have been
running them for years, and they haven't had any problems with them. If you
have any other questions, feel free to email me direct. Just remove NOSPAM
from the address.
--
Gary
Drag Racers live by the code set down years ago:
"If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right".
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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MadDAWG
> comp cam? You won't be happy unless it is over .500 lift and around .290
> duration.
IIRC its 2...@0.050 with 560 lift on a 106 lobe center. My buddy was running
it in a 302 and it was a mutt out of the whole, but would MPH like a mofo.
I'm thinking the extra 40 cubes would help a bunch in the bottom end with
out killing to much top end. It was running to 7200 in his 302 with 2.02
Dart iron heads.
I'm hoping to sell my Stang in the spring and take the money and buy
something all ready setup to drop my drive line into. I found a Mustang II
trunk that is tubbed and caged. It looked pretty sharp as well which is a
plus too. Good thing it was a trunk and not a hatch. I'd be trying to buy it
now and the woman would have me by the short hairs. lol
MadDAWG
GEB
running
> it in a 302 and it was a mutt out of the whole, but would MPH like a mofo.
> I'm thinking the extra 40 cubes would help a bunch in the bottom end with
> out killing to much top end. It was running to 7200 in his 302 with 2.02
> Dart iron heads.
What rear gear was he running? Was he running the stock gears that came in
the car? That would explain why it was a dog out of the hole, but run like a
raped ape on top end. .560 lift should work good for you. but I would look
for something more in the lines of a 109 degree lobe center. Do you remember
what the advertised duration is? I would try for something with 290 or
higher. What all was done to your short block? Is it together or is it
apart right now. If it's apart, there's one thing you can do to gain an
additional 20 - 30 HP. It requires a little more machine work to the crank,
and then rebalance it. As for low end torque, you don't want to start
building massive amounts of torque too far below where you intend to launch
the car at. If you do, your going to have problems getting the car to hook
up, regardless of how much slick you put under the car. If your going to
launch the car at, let's say, 3500 rpms, I'd look to start building torque
around 3000 rpms. This way you'll still have some in then upper rpm range,
and when you shift to the next gear, you'd be dropping the rpms back into
the power range of the cam. I generally try to find a cam that starts
working around the same RPM as the stall RPM as the torque converter.
> I'm hoping to sell my Stang in the spring and take the money and buy
> something all ready setup to drop my drive line into. I found a Mustang II
> trunk that is tubbed and caged. It looked pretty sharp as well which is a
> plus too. Good thing it was a trunk and not a hatch. I'd be trying to buy
it
> now and the woman would have me by the short hairs. lol
>
> MadDAWG
Too bad you weren't looking about two years ago. I had a 78 Mustang Cobra II
that I left go real cheap. Actually, I treaded it for some motor parts that
I needed at the time. Actually, the trunk model is better for drag racing.
It allows you to relocate the battery to the rear of the car without allot
of fabrication. That is where mine is, along with a fuel cell, and the
transmission cooler. When I moved the tranny cooler to the trunk, several
people told me I was going to burn up my tranny, but actually, it has been
running cooler. Remember, there is more metal fluid line running to the back
that is getting hit with the air moving under the car, which aids in the
cooling of the fluid before it even gets to the cooler. Plus, I added 2
computer case fans on the cooler to move some air over the cooler. It
actually worked out very good.
So where are you located and which track will you be racing at? I'm in
Central Pa, and have been going to Beaver Springs Dragway, and might go to
Numidia Raceway next year, from time to time.
MadDAWG
> the car? That would explain why it was a dog out of the hole, but run like
a
> raped ape on top end
He had a 4.10 gear with a 26 inch tire. It would run around a 1.9 60 ft. So
calling it a dog may be a little off, but with my 89 lx I was pulling a 1.6
so it sure looked that way. :)
>. Do you remember what the advertised duration is? I would try for
something with 290 or higher.
Its in the 290 range. The 106 lca makes it a pretty peaky.
The short block is a stock block with a Coast 347, but is a 342 due to a
stock bore. I also have a main girdle as well, but its on my stangs 302
right now. I have been kicking around how much stuff I want to take off the
Stang before I sell it, so I may have to pickup another.
> Actually, the trunk model is better for drag racing.
Very ture. I don't mind them once they are tubbed, but on their own they are
much to look at. lol I found a Maverick here in town on auto trader online
last night.
> So where are you located and which track will you be racing at? I'm in
> Central Pa, and have been going to Beaver Springs Dragway, and might go to
> Numidia Raceway next year, from time to time.
I'm in Michigan. I'm not really sure where I'll go. I ran at Central
Michigan Dragway which is now known as Mid Michigan Motorplex. I moved last
winter so I'm actualy closer to Martin US 131, but most of my friends go to
MMM so thats probably end up.
MadDAWG