Timing: How much will your car stand?
Dennis Smith
I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford set
up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK if
I set the timing to 10 BTDC and run 93 octane gas. I've tried 10 BTDC and
89 octane and it's ping-city. Ditto if I set the timing to 12 BTDC and run
93 octane. I read about people running 14 BTDC or more and others running
10 BTDC on 87 octane gas with no problems.
I also know that people will tend to post only good news, thus all the
reports of cars tolerating more advance or poorer gas. What about the rest
of you? Anyone else with a similar car that really wants to ping? It's got
me scared to add a Powerdyne blower (my planned for upgrade) for fear that
knock will make the car useless.
On a similar thought, I don't know whether I prefer Ford's "let her knock"
philosophy or the Chevy way of having the computer retard the timing to
match whatever gas you put in it. Hmmm, mystery lost power or annoying (and
possibly destructive) pinging? It's a tough call.
Dennis
James Delahanty
In article <01bb9e8e$5b244970$446180d0@eedgs2>, "Dennis Smith" <dsm...@eng.uab.edu> wrote:
>I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford set
>up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK if
>I set the timing to 10 BTDC and run 93 octane gas. I've tried 10 BTDC and
>89 octane and it's ping-city. Ditto if I set the timing to 12 BTDC and run
>93 octane. I read about people running 14 BTDC or more and others running
>10 BTDC on 87 octane gas with no problems.
<snip>
>
>Dennis
Hey, Dennis -
Do you live in an area which requires reformulated or oxygenated gasoline
year-round? I live in Houston, and set the timing to 13 BTDC on my Cobra with
93 octane -- it ran like a champ until we got the newfangled gas, then it was
back to 10.5 or so BTDC and 93 octane (and being picky about where I buy it!)
Not to mention the decreased mileage and increased cost of the RFG. Ugly
stuff, reformulated gasoline.
I'd like to see a *REAL* study comparing the emissions and exhaust components
of a newer (read Fuel Injected/Closed Loop Operating) vehicle using standard
unleaded gasoline, and the "new and improved" reformulated gasoline. Let's
pay special emphasis to the *aldehyde emissions and increased fuel usage due
to lower energy-per-unit and O2 sensor miscalibration.
I think that we've 1) substituted one known problem for a whole bunch of
relatively unknown and potentially nastier ones; 2) convinced ourselves into
thinking that the ecology is being helped when it really isn't; 3) fattened
the pocketbooks of the people in charge of bringing us this new wonderment --
and we're *all* the poorer for the change.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong. (DM)
Jim Delahanty
'94 Cobra #1981
Dennis Smith
> Do you live in an area which requires reformulated or oxygenated gasoline
> year-round? I live in Houston, and set the timing to 13 BTDC on my Cobra
with
> 93 octane -- it ran like a champ until we got the newfangled gas, then it
was
> back to 10.5 or so BTDC and 93 octane (and being picky about where I buy
it!)
> Not to mention the decreased mileage and increased cost of the RFG. Ugly
> stuff, reformulated gasoline.
>
I don't think so, since we don't even require vehicle inspections.
(Birmingham, AL)
> 3) fattened the pocketbooks of the people in charge of bringing us this
new
> wonderment --
Whether or not the other points are valid, this one certainly is.
Dennis
bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
Dennis Smith wrote:
>
> I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford set
> up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK if
89 COUPE. Even when it was brand new the best I could do was 12 degrees
btdc on Sunoco 94 octane.
--
Bruce Musgrove
bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
"Always reach for new heights. Use the drapes, that is what they are
there for."
from the musings of Master Meow
Michael Schurr
I have a 95 Cobra with a 9lb Powerdyne (only makes 6lbs) and I have my
initial timing at 7 deg and I still get a slight detonation at 5000 rpm
at the shift.
I'm going to a Boost /Retard to augment my Crane HI^/PS91 coil setup
and hopefully I can go to 10 or 11 deg initial as long as I pull it out
on the top end.
Detonation is also a function of altitude so depending on where you live
timing is different. Sealevel is best condition as air is more dense.
kuba...@acsu.buffalo.edu
I have a 94GT and the best I have been able to achieve is 13 degrees BTC.
I had one guy talk to me at the Custom Auto show two weeks ago and said he
was running 19 and Sunoco 94 gas. I'm not sure about that, but its great
if it really happens!
Ryan
Jim (cheater8) Stoltz
88 ragtop. Ran 14 degrees and 93 octane Hess for years w/ no
pinging. w/ the blower, I run 12-13 degrees w/ 2 degrees backed out
under boost. Not sure why some have problems and others don't,
maybe the quality of the gas is localized?
Jim
Jim McInnis
: >I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford set
: >up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK if
: >I set the timing to 10 BTDC and run 93 octane gas. I've tried 10 BTDC and
: >89 octane and it's ping-city. Ditto if I set the timing to 12 BTDC and run
: >93 octane. I read about people running 14 BTDC or more and others running
: >10 BTDC on 87 octane gas with no problems.
: >Dennis
'87 Coupe, 9 deg running 93 octane Mobil.
I still get a ping at the top of each gear (built AOD). I've tried
a new coil, wires, ignition module, egr valve, colder plugs
but just can't tolerate any kind of decent timing.
I have a friend who had a twin of my car: '87 Coupe AOD that would
tolerate 14 deg on 89 octane -- go figure. Same local area gas...same
altitude, etc. (each car had same bolt-on's too.)
I'm interested to see if anyone has explanations...
- Jim
HendrickKD
I have a lightly modified 95 GT and it pings at 12-degrees running premium
fuel (stock heads & intake). I've tried Chevron, Texaco, Exxon and Shell,
but no joy. Of course, I live in Houston where daytime temp's are always
above 90 degrees and it's really humid, but only 12-degrees? Sheesh!
Anyway, I have read that the SN-95's don't take timing advance very well.
Any ideas out there?
Keith H.
bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
Did you try new Injectors???? At that age maybe they do not spray real
good. Could also be , normal carbon buildup, carbon on the valves, or
its a friday built car like mine :)
HOKIEGT
My 95 GT pings at 9-10 degrees with anything buy Sunoco 94. I personally
think that this is unacceptable, but the Ford dealership I go to never
hears anything. I usually starts pinging at 4k rpms in 3rd gear (I would
assume that is where the engine really has to start working?). I will
probably try out another dealership in the area when I have a little bit
of spare time.
Dave Nuzzo
95 GT Conv.
GO HOKIES!!
>Dennis Smith wrote:
>>
>> I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford
set
>> up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK
if
>> I set the timing to 10 BTDC and run 93 octane gas. I've tried 10 BTDC
><SNIP>
>
>
Steve Unruh
In article <kubasiak-100...@mac-ara1.cit.buffalo.edu>,
My 1970 351C 4V has a very high compression ratio and requrires 94 octane
Premium gas. i have not been able to find it in 15 years. but i've had to
set my timing back to 8 to 10 degrees BTDC to run the best 93 octane here
in Austin, TX. the ARCO 93 i've used in Southern California would run
12 degrees as would the 93 Union 76 gas i've bought in Raliegh, NC.
it just depends on the area and the station.
ps. Derby 91 octane gasahol in the Kansas area allows 14 degrees timing.
--
He who laughs last thinks slowest!
Black holes are where God divides by zero.
Windows '95 has all of the properties of a virus, with the sole exception
being it hardly ever installs correctly or without intervention!
bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
HOKIEGT wrote:
>
> My 95 GT pings at 9-10 degrees with anything buy Sunoco 94. I personally
> think that this is unacceptable, but the Ford dealership I go to never
> hears anything. I usually starts pinging at 4k rpms in 3rd gear (I would
> assume that is where the engine really has to start working?). I will
> probably try out another dealership in the area when I have a little bit
> of spare time.
That sounds like typical carbon buildup. Try going to the Ford parts and
get a can of their Blue, foaming Carb cleaner. Follow the directions
exactly (read them, its different from any other one you have used) and
use it. DO not be surprised at the smoke and gunk that comes out. Its
normal.
On my 89, I found the best way to get the stuff into the system (since
there is no carb to spray it in) was to use the vacumn line going to the
charcoal cannister. It connects directly to the manifold.
David Brandt
'88 GT rag-top, 18 deg. initial on 93 octane Mobil.
I've got ported, milled (.015), oversized valve (1.94/1.60) stock heads,
ported stock intake, 73mm cobra conversion. split motorcraft plugs, MSD 6AL
ignition. I rev to 6500 with no pinging
but I've heard that the cobra computer rolls back timing???
Rosco
Mike Burress
Dennis Smith <dsm...@eng.uab.edu> wrote in article
<01bb9e8e$5b244970$446180d0@eedgs2>...
> of you? Anyone else with a similar car that really wants to ping? It's
got
Dennis-
Old, crapped out 88 GT (158k miles). Used to be able to run 12 degrees but
now it's down to 10 (on 93 octane) and it pings. I'll be dammed if i'll
back it
down to *less* than the factory spec of 10 degrees. Purely a matter of
principal
and a secret wish for an excuse to rebuild (ie: build) the engine. The
pinging is
probably a combo of engine deposits and clogged injectors at this
mileage. I'm going to try Bruce's idea of using Fords carb cleaner at the
next tuneup to see if that helps. Any maybe an FI cleaning, too.
Here are a few things that cause ping, in no particular order:
1. Bad gas (why did I even list that one - duh)
2. Engine deposits.
3. Vacuum leak leading to lean condition.
4. Non or low functioning EGR.
5. Weather - hot and dry conditions.
6. Wrong heat range plugs, or wrong type (extended vs. std, for example).
7. Low fuel pressure caused by regulator, pump or line obstruction.
8. Thermostat letting engine run too hot.
9. Clogged injectors/bad spray pattern.
10. Too much initial timing.
11. Timing variations caused by faulty/failing ignition.
12. Induction caused by Ford firing order (adjacent cylinders firing) and
bad plug wires routed alongside one another. This tends to cause more
of a miss but could ping as well.
13. Fault in engine control systems (O2 sensors/TAD/AIR) etc.
14. Car built on Monday or Friday <G>.
Here's another thought. If Ford's harmonic balancer is two piece like
a lot of GMs it is possible for the outer part to slip in relation to the
inner
part. This puts the timing marks in the wrong place. Does anyone know
if this happens with the 302 balancers? I'm not for sure.
Hope this helps.
Mike
HOKIEGT
Bruce,
I'm going at lunch tomorrow and buying a can. I will see if the 95's have
the same hose going from the carbon canister to the manifold that your 89
has. This weekend I'll report back on how the car is running.
Thanks,
Dave Nuzzo
Annandale, VA
GO HOKIES!!
In article <323828...@mednet.swmed.edu>, bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
writes:
HOKIEGT
To add to the continuing pinging saga, here is 1 E-mail from myself to
Bruce and 2 E-mails from Bruce to myself:
<<Dave Nuzzo wrote>>
Bruce,
I'm hoping this is the stuff, it was a blue can labeled Spray
Carb Tune-Up cleaner? The directions said spray in the
air intake while idling until the
"Entire Can" is empty, turn engine off and let sit for 5
minutes. The turn on and run throttle on and off up to
normal driving rpms for 2 minutes.
Does this sound like the same stuff (about $6.00 a can?)
Thanks,
Dave Nuzzo
<<and the 2 from Bruce:>>
BINGO! Thats it. I hate to say this about a ford product,
but it really works. I have made it part of my regular
maintenance schedule (my mechanic reccomended about
every 10,000 miles). Do not be surpirsed to get a lot
smoke out of it when you first try it. That's normal. I had
to use two cans the first time around. It made a big
difference in the driveability of the car, especially since
mine suffers from a a major carbon problem in a couple of
cylinders (leaky injectors I need to replace)
As a followup (post these to the newsgroup if you want,
this email client will not let me do that), I use the vaCUMN
LINE THAT RUNS FROM THE INTAKE
MANIFIOLD TO THE CARBON CANISTER TO
INJECT MINE. (sorry about the caps, I'm in a big hurry)
That line is easy to get to for me. Inject it anywhere as
long as it goes straight into the manifold so it can be
distributed to all of the cylinders.. Trying to spray it on the
TB would usally kill the car on me.
>>> <HOK...@aol.com> 09/13/96 10:17am >>>
Annandale, VA
GO HOKIES!!
HOKIEGT
Now must be the time when I start to lose it, I'm replying to myself (Is
this worse than talking to yourself?)
I couldn't find the carbon canister on my 95, I thought it would have been
in the same place as that it was in my 91. I thought it should have been
up front either under the aircleaner, or under the battery, but definitely
up in the nose. Did they move it, or can I not remember where it was
(havn't had the 91 in 2.5 years)?
I used the vacuum line that goes to the manifold from the block of 4 lines
on the drivers side fender, next to the "big black brake thing". Please
excuse the technical terminology, I'm an accountant not a mechanic.
Thanks,
Dave Nuzzo
GO HOKIES!!
In article <51bkvk$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, hok...@aol.com (HOKIEGT)
writes:
Duane Allred
"Dennis Smith" <dsm...@eng.uab.edu> wrote:
>I feel like I must have the "worst case" car on the basis of which Ford set
>up the timing specs. It's a '95 GT with AODE and no mods. Things are OK if
>I set the timing to 10 BTDC and run 93 octane gas. I've tried 10 BTDC and
>89 octane and it's ping-city. Ditto if I set the timing to 12 BTDC and run
My 1988 5.0LX was unable to go past about 10 BTDC with 92 octane. A
guy from a performance center said to unplug the battery, wait about
15 minutes and start the car back up. Then set the timing to 12-14
BTDC and take it out onto the freeway. I've got it set at 12 right
now, and I don't hear any pinging.
>93 octane. I read about people running 14 BTDC or more and others running
>10 BTDC on 87 octane gas with no problems.
>I also know that people will tend to post only good news, thus all the
>reports of cars tolerating more advance or poorer gas. What about the rest
>of you? Anyone else with a similar car that really wants to ping? It's got
PRP
"Jim (cheater8) Stoltz" <jst...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>88 ragtop. Ran 14 degrees and 93 octane Hess for years w/ no
>pinging. w/ the blower, I run 12-13 degrees w/ 2 degrees backed out
>under boost. Not sure why some have problems and others don't,
>maybe the quality of the gas is localized?
>Jim
Jim,
That's 2 degrees per pound of boost backed out. That's quite a bit of
timing retard. Seems like your not taking full advantage of your
blower. Get some bigger injectors, a calibrated mass air, and the
right FMU and turn that baby down to zero. You'll survive with only
12 degrees of initial timing.
bmu...@mednet.swmed.edu
Mike Burress wrote:
>
> Dennis Smith <dsm...@eng.uab.edu> wrote in article
> <01bb9e8e$5b244970$446180d0@eedgs2>...
>
> got
>
lets not forget deposit buildup on the valves.
HOKIEGT
I ran a can of carb cleaner through the manifold like Bruce suggested and
the car still knocks slightly with 87 octane and 10degrees timing, and
ONLY the driver in the car. The car knocks horrendously with the driver,
passenger, 1/4 keg of Dominion Lager in back seat (seat belted in for
safety of course), and 90 lbs. of bowling balls in the trunk. Is this
normal?
On a side note, I pulled 2 plugs on my car (95GT) the number 5&6. They
were a greyish to very light tan. Is this the proper color? I know I saw
something in an old issue of MM&FF but can't find it right now. I'm going
to change the plugs and put Autolite 24s in when I get a free weekend
(probably just need a day). I still don't see how to get my hand down
there for the #8 plug. I'll probably go and start some serious stretching
excercises before the attempt. I know for the passenger side plugs I need
to take apart the air intake up to the TB.
One other question for you 95 & 95 5.0 owners. What kind of wrench do you
use to loosen the distributor bolt to change the timing? I know it is a
1/2 inch but I can't fit a socket in there, and I can't find a box, or
open end wrench that will fit down there. Has anyone seen a specially
bent wrench made for this?
Thanks,
Dave Nuzzo
95 Yellow Conv. GT
GO HOKIES!! 2-0 (2nd longest active winning streak in college at 12)
Jim (cheater8) Stoltz
I recently put 24 lb injectors in it, but am still
running a small (110) fuel pump. I have a calibrated MAF, and
a bleeder on the FMU. BUT, I have a Jacobs retard unit, so I'm
not backing out per pound of boost (like an MSD - I wish I had
bought one of those). It has an on/off switch that activates
at 1.5 psi, and then backs out 2 degrees - period. No mo'.
I got the Jacobs 'cause I had a Nitrous Mastermind and Energy
Team ignition and like their stuff. It's got an adjustable
rev limiter, shift light, and I can set the off-boost timing
as well as the boost timing from the dash (two separate controls).
Anyhow, it's really running at 11-12 degrees under boost with
no pinging - except for a split second between shifts when I
get back on it. I suspect a slow-reacting FMU. Every cylinder
pings for maybe half a second when I stomp on it, and then I
get a cloud of black smoke. Still have some bugs to work out...
Thanks for you concern, though.
Jim
James Delahanty
In article <51r6n7$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, hok...@aol.com (HOKIEGT) wrote:
>
>One other question for you 95 & 95 5.0 owners. What kind of wrench do you
>use to loosen the distributor bolt to change the timing? I know it is a
>1/2 inch but I can't fit a socket in there, and I can't find a box, or
>open end wrench that will fit down there. Has anyone seen a specially
>bent wrench made for this?
>
>Thanks,
>Dave Nuzzo
>95 Yellow Conv. GT
>GO HOKIES!! 2-0 (2nd longest active winning streak in college at 12)
Go to Sears and pick up a "Distributor Hold Down Wrench", they have a part
that's for Ford distributors. It's a 12pt box wrench "foot" with about 15"
of bent steel bar welded to it, sorta looks like the character "7" with the
foot at the bottom. The thing looks _really_ odd, but is the best (possibly
only) way to get to the bolt. I don't recall the price, but it wasn't too
expensive, or I wouldn't have picked one up myself. Just used it yesterday,
in fact.
Malice
HendrickKD
<<One other question for you 95 & 95 5.0 owners. What kind of wrench do
you
use to loosen the distributor bolt to change the timing? I know it is a
1/2 inch but I can't fit a socket in there, and I can't find a box, or
open end wrench that will fit down there. Has anyone seen a specially
bent wrench made for this?>>
I also have a 95 GT convertible and mine knocks at 12 during the heat of
the day (Houston 90-96 degrees). It does much better in the evening when
the temp's here are a chilly 85. I'm going to move my timing back down to
10-11. The knocking (marbles in a coffee can) sound drives me crazy and
my wife insists that "there's something loose and rattling around in your
engine". BTW, I bought a (very) small open/box end wrench at Sears and it
does the trick. The key is to find a wrench that is short and with a
relatively small head. As you found out, long wrenches (and sockets)
will not work. Also, when you tighten the distributor bolt, us a big
screw dirver or something to hold the distributor in place. I found that
just by tightening the anchor bolt, it would cause the distributor to turn
slightly, thereby increasing timing beyond what I wanted (on my first try
it bumped it to nearly 20 degrees!).
Good luck,
Keith H.
PS: Hokies? Are you talking about Virginia Tech? I'm originally from
Roanoke (my folks live right on the Blue Ridge Parkway...gosh that part of
the country is BEAUTIFUL) and although I went to William & Mary in
Williamsburg, I always pulled for the boys from Blacksburg.
HendrickKD
HOKIEGT
I went during lunch today, they are a bargain at $8.99. I've never seen
them at Trak Auto or Pep Boys, but man do I love Sears! I can finally
adjust my timing and start spending money on 93 octane.
Dave Nuzzo
GO HOKIES!! Beat Rutgers!
95 Big East and Sugar Bowl Champs!
Dennis Smith
> On a side note, I pulled 2 plugs on my car (95GT) the number 5&6. They
> were a greyish to very light tan. Is this the proper color?
Yep. That's spot on.
RocketJohn
HendrickKD <hendr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<51rneh$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> Good luck,
> Keith H.
>
> PS: Hokies? Are you talking about Virginia Tech? I'm originally from
> Roanoke (my folks live right on the Blue Ridge Parkway...gosh that part
of
> the country is BEAUTIFUL) and although I went to William & Mary in
> Williamsburg, I always pulled for the boys from Blacksburg.
they sure had our # in the Sugar Bowl last year...
--
>>----->>
RocketJohn
96 Mustang GT
>
HOKIEGT
<< they sure had our # in the Sugar Bowl last year...
--
>>----->>
RocketJohn >>
I did enjoy that game, while sitting (Standing the 2nd half) amongst a
bunch of rowdy and loud (In the 1st half) Longhorns. I just wish I was
able to take the Mustang down there from Virginia instead of the Suburban,
but 4 people and luggage and a 20 hour drive is tough in a Stang.
Dave Nuzzo (Looking forward to going back to Bourbon Street for the Sugar
Bowl this year)
GO HOKIES!!
HOKIEGT
That is what I used on my 91, but I can't seem to make it work on my 95.
Dave Nuzzo
GO HOKIES!!
Josh Pinkert
On 12-Sep-96 02:29:25, HOKIEGT <hok...@aol.com> wrote :
>My 95 GT pings at 9-10 degrees with anything buy Sunoco 94. I personally
>think that this is unacceptable, but the Ford dealership I go to never
>hears anything. I usually starts pinging at 4k rpms in 3rd gear (I would
>assume that is where the engine really has to start working?). I will
>probably try out another dealership in the area when I have a little bit
>of spare time.
My '94 GT does the same. It starts to ping as low as 3500 rpm, even running
93 octane gas. I've had it at the dealer 4 or 5 times for this, and I even
paid THEM to do a 30,000 mile service (selectively, though) so that they would
go after the problem a little more aggressively. The service rep said that
they could not reproduce the problem. When I took the car home, I had it
pinging in less than 5 minutes. A subsequent call only got me "Bring it by
next time you get it pinging." So, one day I stopped by. The service rep was
not there...but I asked to talk to my technician. He said he'd heard the
ping, and that he's checked EVERYTHING over...and all was OK. He also stated
the term for my 'problem' was a performance ping. I said bullshit...it
shouldn't do it...what about all the pre-94 5.0 Mustangs that don't ping at
13+ degrees. He stated that with the intake changes...it's a little more
restrictive. Additionally, the '94+s tend to experience fuel starvation. He
thought it would respond well to fuel system upgrades...ie, stronger fuel pump
w/ 24 lb/hr injectors. Also MAF, TB, and intake. I would love to do those
things...but I don't know if they are REALLY going to cure the problem.
--
fl...@Radix.Net
Josh Pinkert
--
HOKIEGT
Keith,
Are you running 93 Octane gas? I'm planning on adjusting my timing this
evening after work since I picked up the wrench at lunch today. I wish I
would have thought of Sears months ago. Silly me, I was looking at
autoparts stores :).
And yes, the Hokies, are the Virginia Tech Hokies. I spent 5 great years
down in Blacksburg, then bought my first Mustang in 1991. :)
Dave Nuzzo
GO HOKIES!!
In article <51rn62$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, hendr...@aol.com
(HendrickKD) writes:
>I also have a 95 GT convertible and mine knocks at 12 during the heat of
>the day (Houston 90-96 degrees). It does much better in the evening when
>the temp's here are a chilly 85.
HOKIEGT
Josh,
You are in the same boat I'm in. I'd hate to spend money on the other
things and find out I really can't utilize them to their full potential
because the car is pinging while it is stock. If I can't get this sorted
out by the dealer soon, I think I'm going to buy a larger fuel pump and
probably a Fuel Pressure gauge. I would think this might be able to tell
me if it really is fuel starvation or not?
Good Luck,
Dave Nuzzo
95 GT
------- He stated that with the intake changes...it's a little more
restrictive. Additionally, the '94+s tend to experience fuel starvation.
He
thought it would respond well to fuel system upgrades...ie, stronger fuel
pump
w/ 24 lb/hr injectors. Also MAF, TB, and intake. I would love to do
those
things...but I don't know if they are REALLY going to cure the problem.
--
fl...@Radix.Net
Josh Pinkert --------
Robert Whitehill
fl...@radix.net (Josh Pinkert) wrote:
>On 12-Sep-96 02:29:25, HOKIEGT <hok...@aol.com> wrote :
>>My 95 GT pings at 9-10 degrees with anything buy Sunoco 94. I personally
>>think that this is unacceptable, but the Ford dealership I go to never
>>hears anything. I usually starts pinging at 4k rpms in 3rd gear (I would
>>assume that is where the engine really has to start working?). I will
>>probably try out another dealership in the area when I have a little bit
>>of spare time.
>My '94 GT does the same. It starts to ping as low as 3500 rpm, even running
>93 octane gas. I've had it at the dealer 4 or 5 times for this, and I even
>paid THEM to do a 30,000 mile service (selectively, though) so that they would
>go after the problem a little more aggressively. The service rep said that
>they could not reproduce the problem. When I took the car home, I had it
>pinging in less than 5 minutes. A subsequent call only got me "Bring it by
>next time you get it pinging." So, one day I stopped by. The service rep was
>not there...but I asked to talk to my technician. He said he'd heard the
>ping, and that he's checked EVERYTHING over...and all was OK. He also stated
>the term for my 'problem' was a performance ping. I said bullshit...it
>shouldn't do it...what about all the pre-94 5.0 Mustangs that don't ping at
>13+ degrees. He stated that with the intake changes...it's a little more
>restrictive. Additionally, the '94+s tend to experience fuel starvation. He
>thought it would respond well to fuel system upgrades...ie, stronger fuel pump
>w/ 24 lb/hr injectors. Also MAF, TB, and intake. I would love to do those
>things...but I don't know if they are REALLY going to cure the problem.
No pinging here!
14 degrees and 87 octane gas... Must be lucky I guess. <grin>
Robert Whitehill
1993 Bright Blue GT Conv.
Patrick Gattafoni
I have been reading this thread and finally decided to put my 2 cents
worth in. There are some cars that can run more timing than others, but
if you want to improve your situation there are things that you can do.
If you run a plug that is one step colder you will detonate less,
although you will have to change the plugs more because they will foul
up quicker (because they aren't burning hot enough to remove most
deposits on them). You can also run less coolant in the car and use
water wetter, by this I mean use maybe 10% coolant/90% water and add a
bottle of ww. It will lower the cylinder head temperature meaning your
car can stand more timing. Also running a 160 thermostat allows the
engine to run more timing also because it is cooler.
Aluminum cylinder heads will also stand more timing as well, because
the aluminum dissapates heat faster. Keep in mind also that a lot of
aftermarket heads also have larger combustion chambers so that will also
lower the compression slightly which also allows you to run more timing.
The stock compression chamber size is 58cc, where most alumn. heads seem
to be in the 62-64cc range. By milling them down you can get back to
stock compression though if you like, or if you have a supercharged car
that little bit less compression could be helpful in allowing you to run
more boost.
Now, here's a little bit about my situation. I have a completely stock,
untouched 302 with an 8psi Paxton supercharger on it. I am currently
running 12 degrees of timing with no boost retard module whatsoever
(actually I still have the stock ignition box, only with an MSD blaster
2 coil added). I absolutely MUST have at least 97 octane or higher in my
car in order to avoid detonation. I have ended up using Performance
Unleaded race fuel which is 98 octane and run that in the car all the
time (I only drive the Mustang on nice days, so I have only put about
2000 miles on it this year). I have one step colder plugs gapped to
.040" and have almost no coolant in the car, probably 5%coolant/95%water
and Redline water wetter was added. I also have the 160 thermo as well.
I could run a boost retard module and then get by on 94 octane, but I
like having the absolute most power I can get all the time, so I suffer
with having to spend more for the good stuff (a full tank of 98 octane
costs me almost $60 Canadian!). I am lucky because the place that sells
the race fuel is only 5 min from my house and will actually pump the
stuff directly into my car! When I am going to the strip, I like to make
sure I have even more octane-somewhere around 99 octane-so I mix 94
octane Sunoco with 110 octane Mark 2 racing fuel. The Mark 2 is actually
104 pump octane so when mixed at a 50/50 ratio it gives me 99 pump
octane. Anyone who owns a supercharged car should try running more
timing with less or no boost retard and mix in some race fuel, I found
lots of horsepower by doing this!
Patrick Gattafoni
87 Mustang GT (stock motor/Paxton)
12.16 at 112 mph
95 Trans Am (bone stock/2.73 auto)
14.16 at 97.5 mph
HendrickKD
<<14 degrees and 87 octane gas... Must be lucky I guess. <grin> >>
It seems that pre-SN95 mustangs can take more timing advance than the
94-95 models. Why is that? While the cars are vastly different, I
thought the engines and electronics were identical. I have a 95 GT and it
WILL NOT go above 12 degrees running 93 octane. In fact, even at 12 it
pings on real hot days, which in Houston, is almost every day.
Looking forward to the fall...
Keith H.
mbu...@access.k12.wv.us
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> ..040" and have almost no coolant in the car, probably
5%coolant/95%water
> and Redline water wetter was added. I also have the 160 thermo as well.
> I could run a boost retard module and then get by on 94 octane, but I
> like having the absolute most power I can get all the time, so I suffer
> with having to spend more for the good stuff (a full tank of 98 octane
> costs me almost $60 Canadian!). I am lucky because the place that sells
> the race fuel is only 5 min from my house and will actually pump the
> stuff directly into my car! When I am going to the strip, I like to make
> sure I have even more octane-somewhere around 99 octane-so I mix 94
> octane Sunoco with 110 octane Mark 2 racing fuel. The Mark 2 is actually
> 104 pump octane so when mixed at a 50/50 ratio it gives me 99 pump
> octane. Anyone who owns a supercharged car should try running more
> timing with less or no boost retard and mix in some race fuel, I found
> lots of horsepower by doing this!
>
>
> Patrick Gattafoni
> 87 Mustang GT (stock motor/Paxton)
> 12.16 at 112 mph
> 95 Trans Am (bone stock/2.73 auto)
> 14.16 at 97.5 mph
Just don't put any 'leaded' racing fuel into your fuel-
injected pony... kinda' has a way of killing oxygen sensors!
Mike Burch
66 mustang
302 4-speed 150hp nitrous
factory heads, 3100lbs w/o
driver, pump-gas
6.841 @ 100.5 mph 1/8 mile