a604 Limp, Rebuilt, Sensors replaced, solenoid replaced still Limps!
Richard Ahlquist
Hello,
I picked up a Dodge stratus (95) with 75,000 miles. I put about 5-6k
on it. Then one day (a very warm day) on the way home from work (40
mile commute) as i was nearing the house it shifted into what I
thought may be limp mode at about 45-50mph. The car nose dived and
started compression breaking after what felt like an inital total loss
of power. I took it the las mile home and tried it after it cooled
down, it went into limp after it warmed back up. So I took it to the
dealership. They told me the Input and output speed sensors were bad
and needed replacing as well as the Throttle Position Sensor. Not
having the $500+ they wanted to do it I took the car home and replaced
the input and outpust speed sensors myself.
I drove the car and all seemed fine, so I took it to work the
following day. On the way to work I was on the freeway and it was
doing fine about 65mph. Then it dropped into limp. I was able to get
the car the remainder of the way to work in limp. At lunch time the
car did fine, no problems. However after work it would not go into 2nd
gear so an expensive tow home.
I then called a local chain tranny shop, they said they could rebuild
the trans for about $1800, I had the car towed over and the problems
began. By thursday they said the car was ready. I asked if they test
drove it and they stated yes. I paid for the repair and left with the
car, and made it about 3 blocks before it went into limp. I took it
back.
To make a long story short;
They rebuilt the thranny for $1800
It still goes into limp when it reaches a hot operating temp.
They say the dropping into limp has again fried the 2nd gear clutches.
The have also replaced the shit solenoid and both input and output
speed sensors as I had.
They remain convinced of it being wiring, I'm not sure because it
seems heat related. The TCM sometime over the life of the car has been
replaced with a remanuf moapr unit.
After a brief wiat for their diagnostic computer he hooked it up, had
some problems getting any readings and finally got code 54 out of it.
Well they had just put new speed sensors in it and so had I before
them!!!!
So he left the diag computer hooked up and took it for a ride. He cam
back 15 mins later, pulled in and hollered for his partner to come
take a ride. He "had never seen anything act like this before".
They took it out after resetting the codes and about 35 mins later
came back. He said it was the damnedst thing, that what was happening
wasnt exactly limp mode. But more like a flat out stall and then a
drop into limp mode. Which pretty much describes it. To me it feels
like your crusing along at say 65, then all of the sudden the car nose
dives, has no power, and after about 1-3 seconds the RPMs kick way up
as the transmission catches its downshift. So to me its like coast
starting a car on a hill get coasting at a good speed and pop the
clutch.
They say the abuse it got test driving has fried the new clutches they
just put in it so it will need another rebuild(under warranty). But
they have no idea what the problem could be. They have now replaced
the solenoid pack and that didnt help. The TCM on the car is not the
factory one but a mopar reconditioned unit so I know that the previous
car owner had replaced that at least once too. They are currently
convinced that wiring is an issue and are trying to find the problem
now that they have a schematic. I've suggested they replace the TCM
and despite the fact I am willing to pay for the part they dont want
me to have to pay for that if it isnt the problem. I'm at a loss, my
wife wants me to dispute the charge with my credit card company and
try to get the car back and take it elsewhere but in light of the
problems I'm not sure anyone else would have any better luck. Are
there any suggestions you have? Some insight?
Help!
kmat...@sisna.com
Does your Stratus have the V6? There was a post on this newsgroop a few
weeks back about a hard-to-troubleshoot stalling problem on an early JA
car with a V6. Turned out to be a wiring problem that cause additional
problems. I would suggest searching the NG. I will try to find it too.
-KM
kmat...@sisna.com
"1995 Cirrus 2.5L stall condition"
It is a lot of reading, but it would not hurt to check.
-KM
Richard Ahlquist
<kmat...@sisna.com> wrote:
>I found it. Search for this:
>
>"1995 Cirrus 2.5L stall condition"
>
Thanks, I read through the thread and its not very reassuring and I
dont see a final resoloution either.
I have gotten one other tip that it could be the Zener Diode on the AC
Clutch going bad and allowing a spike to return through the harness
causing all the shift solenoids to actuate/activate at once. I passed
that information on to the transmission shop this morning. No word
from them yet on any progress.
My next car will be a 74 Dodge Dart, it was my first car and there
wasnt anything on it short of the rearend that I couldnt tackle in a
weekend.
Or maybe another 69 300 with aftermarket fuel injection installed on
its 440 again, 20MPG on that beast wasnt bad..
Richard Ahlquist
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I picked up a Dodge stratus (95) with 75,000 miles.
Well so much for that. I got tired of waiting for results so I called
the transmission shops corporate office and complained about 9 days
with no end in sight. They contacted the shop and within an hour they
called my house and told my wife that my car was ready. Flabergasted I
called them and asked if they fixed the limp mode problem. The guy
said "Your transmission is fixed." I said yea but will it go into
limp? he said "Your transmission is fixed, if you have a problem with
a sensor or a control thats not my area. I fix tranmissions. I dont
have diagnostic equipment for other parts of cars"
So tomorrow I get to go pickup my car with its twice rebuilt
tranmission and still existing limp mode problem that the shop refuses
to fix or accept resposibility for. So I have paid $1800+ for a repair
that wont last if the transmission screws up again and I am willing to
bet thats how they will weasel out of their warranty.
So now I am really looking for any last ditch ideas....
Thanks...
Ken Weitzel
Hi...
You have my sympathy...
Just one thought fwiw from an old retired electrical guy, if it
should be at all helpful?
How about using another car (trade with your wife, or child, or...)
for your highway speed trip to work - and let whichever of
the above use yours for in city slower trips while you work out
what's really going wrong.
That way if it does decide to shift to a lower gear (or all gears)
you'll (they'll) have a much better chance of not cooking the
clutches because of the lower speed.
Take care.
Ken
Richard Ahlquist
wrote:
>
>Hi...
>
>You have my sympathy...
>
>Just one thought fwiw from an old retired electrical guy, if it
>should be at all helpful?
>
>How about using another car (trade with your wife, or child, or...)
>for your highway speed trip to work - and let whichever of
>the above use yours for in city slower trips while you work out
>what's really going wrong.
>
>That way if it does decide to shift to a lower gear (or all gears)
>you'll (they'll) have a much better chance of not cooking the
>clutches because of the lower speed.
>
>Take care.
>
>Ken
Thank you Ken its good advice but unfortunately I am lucky enough to
own a house in the boonies. I live in a rural area where I have .5
mile to the left and right of my drive way thats 35mph after that its
45+ and to get to any town its all highway driving. My wife has a
Accord I have been using while mine was in the shop so I stranded her
at home with our 4yr old for the last 2 weeks.
I plan as soon as I recover from this nightmare on buying a 60's or
70's car for a spare. Mileage may not be as good but getting from
point a to point b will suffice.
Take it easy!
treeli...@yahoo.com
> Thank you Ken its good advice but unfortunately I am lucky enough to
> own a house in the boonies. I live in a rural area where I have .5
> mile to the left and right of my drive way thats 35mph after that its
> 45+ and to get to any town its all highway driving. My wife has a
> Accord I have been using while mine was in the shop so I stranded her
> at home with our 4yr old for the last 2 weeks.
>
> I plan as soon as I recover from this nightmare on buying a 60's or
> 70's car for a spare. Mileage may not be as good but getting from
> point a to point b will suffice.
>
> Take it easy!
As a last resort, take the car to the dealer and have the software
revision code on the TCM checked. Make sure the revision code is the
latest possible for this car. The dealer can flash the EEPROM as
needed. This is relatively inexpensive, from below $70 to $130 if they
charge for getting the revision number first. It's a long shot and it's
just a start. A bug or a bad byte in the EEPROM can do things that can
damage the car. The reman TCM that was put in might not have the latest
code. You would think this would be checked but it requires hooking the
TCM up to a reader which takes time and effort.
In my vehicle with the A604, the electronically controlled clutch
upshifted too slowly with the original code. So the torque converter
started to self-destruct, exhibiting a shudder around 37 to 45 mph. I
had ATF +3 put in after a simple drain and a new filter and a
reprogramming of the computer and all is well with the tranny. I stayed
away from ATF +4 on purpose since it might be too "slippery" for the
A604.
I'm not a mechanic and don't know much about this stuff but just
throwing out a wild suggestion for you.
Reman. Part No. Vehicle Application -
Software ID
Year
Body Type
Engine
R4686606AA 04686606 95 AJ,AS,A1,A3,A4,ES 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R5269726AA 05269726 95 FJ 2.0 & 2.5L
R4797708AA 04797708 95 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R4759066AA 04797708 93-94 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4761848AA 04796123 92 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L
R4761849AA 04796124 92 C,S,Y 3.3L & 3.8L
R4761847AA 04796122 90-91 C,S,Y 3.3 & 3.8L
R4761846AA 04796121 89-91 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L
nobody
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thanks! So in order to do the version check and re-flash does the TCM
have to be removed from the vehicle, or can it be rather? If my car
goes into limp tomorrow this may be my best resoloution for having the
TCM checked.
treeli...@yahoo.com
On my minivan, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that only a special cable
needed to be used, an expensive cable for pre-1996 vehicles. So that
leaves out a lot of independents who might not wish to bother with this
expense. The TCM sits plainly in site so I thought, aha, just unplug it
and plug in the harness for the EEPROM reader and writer. It did not
appear to me that the TCM had been unscrewed and taken out but I did
not see what took place at the dealership. Not sure if the details are
in the FSM. There is also a very inexpensive shop manual for this
transmission, available directly from DC online or by phone, maybe most
dealers' parts departments still can get it, for less than $20. A
superbook for this tranny. I don't have it but just throwing out ideas
for you. Also check, if not already, the TSB's on your car and tranny.
A literature review, if you will. What I mentioned above with software
revision numbers is directly from a TSB on this tranny.
1989-1998 41 TE/AE TRANSAXLE SUPERBOOK $17.00
http://www.techauthority.daimlerchrysler.com/ 800-890-4038
8am-8pm
With some luck, the reprogramming might sort out the TCM if it were the
TCM.
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Richard Ahlquist" <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote in message
news:hrv6725k5hr6tqifq...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:45:46 -0400, Richard Ahlquist
> <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >I picked up a Dodge stratus (95) with 75,000 miles.
>
> Well so much for that. I got tired of waiting for results so I called
> the transmission shops corporate office and complained about 9 days
> with no end in sight. They contacted the shop and within an hour they
> called my house and told my wife that my car was ready. Flabergasted I
> called them and asked if they fixed the limp mode problem. The guy
> said "Your transmission is fixed." I said yea but will it go into
> limp? he said "Your transmission is fixed, if you have a problem with
> a sensor or a control thats not my area. I fix tranmissions. I dont
> have diagnostic equipment for other parts of cars"
>
The transmission sensor or control is -not- an "other part of the car"
neither
is the TCM, those are part of the transmission.
> So tomorrow I get to go pickup my car with its twice rebuilt
> tranmission and still existing limp mode problem that the shop refuses
> to fix or accept resposibility for. So I have paid $1800+ for a repair
> that wont last if the transmission screws up again and I am willing to
> bet thats how they will weasel out of their warranty.
>
If it fails again then dispute the charge through your credit card company
and I will bet that you will win. Where did you take it? AAMCO?
I never heard of a "transmission shop's corporate office" unless it was
a national chain like AAMCO, and there's a reason that place is called
SCAMCO by a lot of people.
When you made the call to the corporate office, I am sure what happened
was a telephone call from the corporate office to the local transmission
shop that went something like this:
corporate office: "Hey Joe, we got a call from this Richard Ahlquist saying
you've been fooling with his car for 9 days what gives?"
trans shop: "Yeah, it's really a tough one we think it's bad wiring and are
trying to trace it out"
corporate office: "how much warranty time have you put into this so far"
trans shop: "about 5 hours over the last couple weeks"
corporate office: "Joe, give the car back to the customer"
trans shop: "but it's not fixed it will just break down again and the
customer
will bring it back"
corporate office: "tell them it's not a problem in the transmission and not
covered under warranty"
trans shop: "then they are just going to dispute it and we will lose $1800"
corporate office: "Joe, we have had this discussion before. Your cost to
rebuild that transmission is about $300 in parts, and about $500 in labor.
If they dispute the charge we lose $800, not $1800. And in the 5 hours
you have spent trying to fix this, you could have rebuilt another customers
car and made $1000. We lose less money by just accepting the $1800
chargeback and moving on then by you spending the time to try to fix it
under warranty. Once they get a successful chargeback then they cannot
make any further warranty claims and it will be someone else's problem"
> So now I am really looking for any last ditch ideas....
>
Quit using lowball car repair places and find a good local independent
transmission repair shop that has great ratings at the Better Business
Bureau, and take it there. It will cost more than $1800 to rebuild - but
it will get done properly. Your wife is right.
And additionally, it probably IS the input and output speed sensors,
or the connections to them.
You, and SCRAMCO, both went out and bought cheapie speed
sensors, didn't you, you didn't go get them from the dealer, right?
And, did you replace the TPS sensor? Probably not, you were told
that sensor was bad but you didn't mention replacing it.
Well, why do you think that these
sensors cost a lot more money at the dealer? Plenty of people have
had the experience of buying cheap low-grade replacement sensors
for this transmission and had the same experience as you, that has
been talked about on this forum before.
Ted
treeli...@yahoo.com
You make good points, Ted, which is usual for you.
But why not a remanufactured transmission? The most expensive would be
from DC and run now what, $1800? Labor would be additional. But that
would come with a warranty for 3/36 would it not, including labor if
the dealer put it in? There are cheaper reman or rebuilt trannies from
jobbers which shops use and run about $1600? I don't know much about
them.
I recall a friend who had Cottman try to repair by rebuilding her
tranny for $3000. At that time, a reman tranny from Chrysler was $1200,
so with labor, what, $1800? She was not aware that in this case the
dealer was far cheaper and probably far more competent. But in her
case, the problem was not fully resolved until the TCM was updated. In
any case, as a good mechanic told me, he would not rebuild his own. He
would just get one from Chrysler and put it in. Too many parts, seals,
and what not. But he was not a tranny guy but someone who specialized
in European vehicles.
Richard Ahlquist
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>The transmission sensor or control is -not- an "other part of the car"
>neither
>is the TCM, those are part of the transmission.
Preaching to the choir here! I agree.
>
>If it fails again then dispute the charge through your credit card company
>and I will bet that you will win. Where did you take it? AAMCO?
>I never heard of a "transmission shop's corporate office" unless it was
>a national chain like AAMCO, and there's a reason that place is called
>SCAMCO by a lot of people.
No its not AAMCO, its a smaller chain I will name after I get my car
back this morning.
>> So now I am really looking for any last ditch ideas....
>>
>
>Quit using lowball car repair places and find a good local independent
>transmission repair shop that has great ratings at the Better Business
>Bureau, and take it there. It will cost more than $1800 to rebuild - but
>it will get done properly. Your wife is right.
>
>And additionally, it probably IS the input and output speed sensors,
>or the connections to them.
>You, and SCRAMCO, both went out and bought cheapie speed
>sensors, didn't you, you didn't go get them from the dealer, right?
>And, did you replace the TPS sensor? Probably not, you were told
>that sensor was bad but you didn't mention replacing it.
>
>Well, why do you think that these
>sensors cost a lot more money at the dealer? Plenty of people have
>had the experience of buying cheap low-grade replacement sensors
>for this transmission and had the same experience as you, that has
>been talked about on this forum before.
Thanks Ted. I'll keep this in mind, the sesnors I bought were Standard
Automotive I believe, no they didnt come from the dealer. As for the
TPS, no it hasnt been replaced, nor has the computer kicked another
error code for it. Besides if the TPS was truly bad would there not
likely be other throttle related symptoms?
Richard Ahlquist
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>You make good points, Ted, which is usual for you.
>
>But why not a remanufactured transmission? The most expensive would be
>from DC and run now what, $1800? Labor would be additional. But that
>would come with a warranty for 3/36 would it not, including labor if
>the dealer put it in? There are cheaper reman or rebuilt trannies from
>jobbers which shops use and run about $1600? I don't know much about
>them.
>
>I recall a friend who had Cottman try to repair by rebuilding her
>tranny for $3000. At that time, a reman tranny from Chrysler was $1200,
>so with labor, what, $1800? She was not aware that in this case the
>dealer was far cheaper and probably far more competent. But in her
>case, the problem was not fully resolved until the TCM was updated. In
>any case, as a good mechanic told me, he would not rebuild his own. He
>would just get one from Chrysler and put it in. Too many parts, seals,
>and what not. But he was not a tranny guy but someone who specialized
>in European vehicles.
Actually I wound up at this shop because of a nasty shock from the
dealer. I called them prior to getting the loan to fix the car, and
asked "How much would you charge me to put a new transmission in this
car?" Their reply, ballpark about $2200. So I got a loan for $2500.
After I got my loan and called the dealer for the final pricing it was
revealed the 2200 didnt inlclude labor. Final estimate was around
$2780. I was kinda pissed at the jerking around.
NewMan
the A604 for $1495 + Tax. That is a rebuild of the trans. Sensors and
other parts would be extra. And those prices are in Canadian Dollars.
But they are a reputable shop! When I took my GC to them, they did NOT
assume that it needed a rebuild, and as much as refused to do anything
until they had performed a "proper and complete diagnosis". Their
reasoning was that it could be many things, and they wanted to fix it
right the first time. Which they did - it was a solenoid pack. All my
wiring checked out OK.
So Teds advice is correct. You need a local independant shop. Such
shops live and die on reputation. They cannot aford to screw up and
get a bad name. Check the BBB. Check with local automotive places.
Often people "know" about the good, the bad, and the ugly of such
shops. Ask around. If you get a farily consistant answers, and a good
BBB rating, then that is your best bet.
And as for your existing shop, I would dispute the charge - period.
Start the process immediately. It takes time to get the paperwork, and
for the process to complete. In the mean time, drive it close to home
in your speare time to try and reproduce the problem. When you do (I
am fairly certain) then drive it home in limp mode at lower speed. It
should not damage the transmission. When mine went into limp mode my
wife actually drove it for a few days before I drove it and noticed
the limp mode! I then drove it over an hour away (at low speed on the
highway! ;) to the excellent shop that fixed it properly. NO DAMAGE.
GO kick some butt! I hate scaming auto shops! And, of course, once you
get the car back please DO publish the name of the shop for all to
see. Avoidence of such shops is a GOOD thing.
hth
treeli...@yahoo.com
Richard Ahlquist wrote:
> Actually I wound up at this shop because of a nasty shock from the
> dealer. I called them prior to getting the loan to fix the car, and
> asked "How much would you charge me to put a new transmission in this
> car?" Their reply, ballpark about $2200. So I got a loan for $2500.
>
> After I got my loan and called the dealer for the final pricing it was
> revealed the 2200 didnt inlclude labor. Final estimate was around
> $2780. I was kinda pissed at the jerking around.
You don't have another dealer near you? I have two dealers near me. The
one who got an outstanding signal at cartalk.com where they rate some
shops and dealers and mechanics, did turn out to be outstanding. At
least until they saw me as a chronic problem who would not dump money
on the desk. I wish I could fellows.
The other dealer was hit or miss. When I drove to them with a serious
problem, they could not be bothered. Get an appointment. At other
times, another service writer, would actually come out to the vehicle
in the lot for a quick look and free advice. So very uneven. I am not
surprised you got two quotes and messed around. That happens when you
have a good cop bad cop routine in the dealership. It's a pain to get
everything in writing, especially in the boonies where a word should be
good enough. In your case, a mechanic friend could have ordered the
tranny from the dealer at presumably reduced cost. I might have told
the dealer that to get the price down to the original estimate or
you'll purchase the tranny with the good customer 10% discount. In any
case, that is bad enough to warrant a complaint. That's like a bait and
switch fraud routine; it's along the same lines or just plain
incompetence or greed or all three.
Richard Ahlquist
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
Well I got the car back today from Speedy Transmission. The rebuild
itself seems to be fine.
I continue to work under the assumption that the advice someone
emailed me after seeing my post here is correct. That tip was that
they had in the past seen a similar problem to this and that it was
the A/C compressor cycling off and creating an inductive spike in the
electrical system. So after picking up the car i drove down the block
some and stopped the car, got out and pulled the A/C compressor relay
from under the hood. I then proceded to drive the car today without
incident. The folks at speedy were shocked with the information I
shared with them about the A/C and wanted to know where I got it so I
pointed them to Google Groups (no sense trying to spend hours
explaining newsgroups).
Today was quite hot, 91 when I got home. Since the A/C was unhooked
and will continue to be so until I get a zener diode to
replace/supplement the old one I should get some good testing in to
eliminate/validate the A/C being the source of the issue. All said and
done today I put 100+ Miles on the car since picking it up with no
further issue.
I'd like to thank everyone in the group who chimed in, and the person
who supplied what I hope is the answer to my issue!
Ted Mittelstaedt
"NewMan" <Cloaked...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:shq872lj49lhmil2k...@4ax.com...
> And as for your existing shop, I would dispute the charge - period.
> Start the process immediately. It takes time to get the paperwork, and
> for the process to complete. In the mean time, drive it close to home
> in your speare time to try and reproduce the problem. When you do (I
> am fairly certain) then drive it home in limp mode at lower speed. It
> should not damage the transmission.
It depends why it went into limp mode. If it's a sensor failure then it
will not hurt the transmission. I had one of mine drop into 2nd gear while
going 55Mph downhill on the freeway. The TCM had an input speed
sensor code failure and I replaced the sensor that evening with one
from NAPA.
>
> GO kick some butt! I hate scaming auto shops! And, of course, once you
> get the car back please DO publish the name of the shop for all to
> see.
Yes, definitely. As long as you stick exactly to the facts you cannot be
sued for libel.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
Richard, don't celebrate too quick, your tempting the daemons, you know.
You don't need a zener diode, any old diode will do, all it is for is
shorting
out the back EMF that is generated when the clutch releases and the
field in the clutch coil collapses. Any electrical supply house will have
it.
Just get the biggest wattage one you can fit in there.
But be aware that if it's a failing sensor that the way they usually fail if
they don't just go dead is to be very intermittent. You might have a limp
incident every 3-6 months, then over time the interval between incidents
becomes closer and closer.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
A bad TPS is easy to see with an analog ohmmeter, just connected the
ohmmeter to the TPS, move it slowly through the range of travel. The
ohmmeter needle should track the movement exactly, if the needle jumps
around particularly if it jumps when going back and forth over the same
spot, the TPS is bad.
What retailer did the sensors come from? Unfortunately these days you
can't really blindly trust the brands, since many brand name companies
manufacturer different levels of quality depending on the retailer that
orders
them.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1148456639....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Most independents just buy "remanufactured" TCM's which are, as you
probably can guess, nothing more than existing TCM's that have been
cleaned up a bit and reflashed.
> The TCM sits plainly in site so I thought, aha, just unplug it
> and plug in the harness for the EEPROM reader and writer. It did not
> appear to me that the TCM had been unscrewed and taken out but I did
> not see what took place at the dealership. Not sure if the details are
> in the FSM.
They are not. You need scan tools that are prohibitively expensive (even
used)
for the DIYer.
But in any case, his TCM is probably flashed already and if not, there's
plenty
of flashed ones in the wrecking yards. What's the part number on the side
of it?
Ted
Jetwrench777
Hi there, I have a 96 Sebring convertible 2.5l with an A604 trans. It
seems to have the exact same problem. I did a little on the road
diagnosis and found that at exactly 67mph the engine would drop down to
idle as if the cruise control was shutting it down. The car functions
completely normally from 0 to 67. Even if I speed up and coast to a
speed above 67 the engine returns to idle. As soon as the speed drops
below 65 the engine returns to normal. People telling you that the
transmission is fine may be on the right track. Because no matter what
I put my transmission through everything remains normal provided the
speed is kept under 67mph. Note the fact that if you keep the gas pedal
floored when the engine kicks off at 67 the car abruptly springs back to
life at the exact time the speed drops under 65. This is not recommended
due to the fact that you may hurt a perfectly good transmission. I have
a pretty good repair manual and it expressly implies not to intermix
computers with transmissions from different years, though specifics are
not mentioned. I have since parked the car and stripped it of all the
important parts for use on a 98 that I picked up. I understand the
frustration, I also live in a rural area and drive 35 miles to work
each way. For what it is worth you are not alone. At least you know
the problem has happened to someone else and is not a totally isolated
incident. One good benefit was that on more than one occasion the
problem saved me from getting caught in a speed trap....
--
Jetwrench777
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jetwrench777's Profile: http://www.autostalk.com/m22
View this thread: http://www.autostalk.com/t353873
Richard Ahlquist
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>A bad TPS is easy to see with an analog ohmmeter, just connected the
>ohmmeter to the TPS, move it slowly through the range of travel. The
>ohmmeter needle should track the movement exactly, if the needle jumps
>around particularly if it jumps when going back and forth over the same
>spot, the TPS is bad.
>
>What retailer did the sensors come from? Unfortunately these days you
>can't really blindly trust the brands, since many brand name companies
>manufacturer different levels of quality depending on the retailer that
>orders
>them.
>
>Ted
>
The sensors came from Advance auto parts. I hadnt thought to try an
analog meter on the TPS, the Haynes manual I have shows no info on how
to test it.
Richard Ahlquist
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>Richard, don't celebrate too quick, your tempting the daemons, you know.
>
>You don't need a zener diode, any old diode will do, all it is for is
>shorting
>out the back EMF that is generated when the clutch releases and the
>field in the clutch coil collapses. Any electrical supply house will have
>it.
>Just get the biggest wattage one you can fit in there.
>
>But be aware that if it's a failing sensor that the way they usually fail if
>they don't just go dead is to be very intermittent. You might have a limp
>incident every 3-6 months, then over time the interval between incidents
>becomes closer and closer.
>
>Ted
>
Oh trust me with it being an intermittient problem I wont celebrate
for a bit yet, I am just glad that its behaving.
The diode I'm looking at is part of a GM harness repair kit and is at
http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_id=44831&dept_id=1135
Other than the speed sensors are there any other sensors I need to be
concerned with?
I wish i still had my oscilliscope to watch for the spike but it went
bye bye about 6 years ago and I just cant justify buying another.
Phil T
know what transmission model it was. But I could have your post for you.
Car was under warranty. It spent 6 weeks on and off in the Chrysler
dealership - it's fixed; it's broken; it's fixed; it's broken.... I even
drove around for one weekend with the Chrysler "Co-Pilot" sitting on the
passenger seat. Chrysler replaced all kinds of parts.
In the end, the cause was high resistance on one pin in a multipin
connector. They replaced that portion of the wiring Harness (connector
and all) and that was the end of the problem.
Phil
Ken Weitzel
Hi Ted...
I'd respectfully suggest that you re-consider your suggestion to
replace the existing zener with "any old diode"
A zener <> any old diode.
Take care.
Ken
treeli...@yahoo.com
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > Richard, don't celebrate too quick, your tempting the daemons, you know.
> >
> > You don't need a zener diode, any old diode will do, all it is for is
> > shorting
> > out the back EMF that is generated when the clutch releases and the
> > field in the clutch coil collapses. Any electrical supply house will have
> > it.
> > Just get the biggest wattage one you can fit in there.
> >
> > But be aware that if it's a failing sensor that the way they usually fail if
> > they don't just go dead is to be very intermittent. You might have a limp
> > incident every 3-6 months, then over time the interval between incidents
> > becomes closer and closer.
> >
> > Ted
>
> Hi Ted...
>
> I'd respectfully suggest that you re-consider your suggestion to
> replace the existing zener with "any old diode"
>
> A zener <> any old diode.
>
> Take care.
>
> Ken
Good job of figuring this out. Really tricky. Good discussion. I would
like to ramble a little since we are now discussing analog and a touch
of digital engineering in the automotive newsgroup.
"Two (equivalent) Zeners in series and in reverse order, in the same
package, constitute a transient absorber (or Transorb, a registered
trademark). They are named for Dr. Clarence Melvin Zener of Southern
Illinois University, inventor of the device." = Wikipedia.
I vaguely remember this when I was building stuff and worried about
spikes and surges. I gather the question here is allowing the signal
through but not the spike or surge. How big is that signal? +5 volts? A
Light Emitting Diode or LED would light up but that's a bit fancy.
About the oscilloscopes, an analog might be fine here. I have seen even
100/200 MHz old Tektronix 'scopes going for very cheap and they will
get the spike, yes? Now a good digital scope might what, record over a
period so one could go eat supper and then come back. I'm wondering,
maybe a dirt cheap signal probe might get it? Guess it's back to a
good, fast digital 'scope because you might want to record and inspect
the bugger at leisure.
I guess if this signal or surge is that bad, then a small isolation
transformer inserted here? That would be overkill but they really do
the job. Nothing gets by a good isolation transformer, well, maybe a
big lightning strike. Can you put one on a signal line though?
Breadboard this to see if it works?
Where's a good analog design engineer when you need one for a car? Most
engineers are digital so look for the mature guys for the analog which
is far more complicated than digital on a byte for spike basis :)
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Ken Weitzel" <kwei...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:q%idg.188993$WI1.159587@pd7tw2no...
Yes, I know that. However there is really no need for a zener in this
circuit. Most likely some engineer specced something like a 20 or
so volt zener with the idea that it would be connected anode to positive
and cathod to negative, and when the EMF collapsed in the clutch
coil the zener would clip the hundred volt or so pulse. However, a
regular diode connected anode to negative, cathod to positive, does
the same job since when the EMF collapses it will flow backwards
and in that case the diode looks like a direct short. Diodes are used
in electronic circuits in parallel with relay coils all the time for exactly
the same reason.
A more specific explanation is here:
http://experts.about.com/q/Electrical-Engineering-1356/Protection-Diode.htm
I guess the Chrysler engineer that specced it was the same guy that wrote
the question in the the electrical expert. ;-)
Ted
Richard Ahlquist
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ahh my electronics coursework was over 15 years ago so I dont problaim
to be not rusty ;)
Basically the tip I got mentioned a plymouth breze that had the same
issue. The dealer mechanic in question didnt post to the group so I am
assuming he had his reasons. Basically he stated something to the
effect that the collapse of the A/C compressor circuit could produce a
spike as high as 600 volts. That in the case he saw it was literally
spiking all the way back to the solenoids and activating them all.
I'm going to err on the side of caution and get the zener since thats
what was originally in the cicuit apparently. It all plays out very
sensible to me that the zener could have been going bad through all of
my limp incidents. Each time the car was hot, if the zener was going
bad and opening while hot all it would have needed was one time for
the A/C to cycle off and poof.
So I guess I will go with the zener I mentioned earlier in the thread
and for giggles I am replacing the AC relay in case this relay has its
own zener (a lot of older bosch relays did I know). For less than $10
its cheap insurance.
The car today did just fine again, not proof positive but it is
encouraging especailly considering it was hotter today.
treeli...@yahoo.com
That's a good discussion but let me ask something here. I think I
understand some of your comments [it's been a while since I used zeners
or regular diodes] in regards to the OP's problem involved. The OP
fellow is looking at $2000 and possibly unable to get to work. Now a
zener diode is what? It's been a while since I bought them, but from
Digi-Key, I could buy 10 or 20 for a few dollars? Diodes are probably
cheaper and simpler to understand. But when looking at thousands of
dollars and the specter of not getting to work, why mess with a part
that can be purchased often for loose change, like a quarter or now 50
cents, even at Radio Shlack? Nothing in my car costs that little except
maybe a cap to the tire's air valve! I know, it's the challenge
involved. Is there any condition under which a regular diode would be
better than the zener diode? In this case, the zener is reversed to the
regular diode if I followed your cathode/anode comment but the
schematic or original usage calls for a zener, does it not?
Bill Putney
> ...Most likely some engineer specced something like a 20 or
> so volt zener with the idea that it would be connected anode to positive
> and cathod to negative, and when the EMF collapsed in the clutch
> coil the zener would clip the hundred volt or so pulse. However, a
> regular diode connected anode to negative, cathod to positive, does
> the same job since when the EMF collapses it will flow backwards
No. You're half right. Whether a zener or non-zener is used, it would
be placed anode to negative, cathode to positive (keep in mind that the
terminology for the zener terminals is for the forward - non-zener mode
- conduction - same as a regular diode). Either diode would clamp
negative spikes generated by the coil turning off - either the regular
(non-zener) or the zener would be with anode to negative and cathode to
positive - when the positive wire tries to go negative, the diode goes
into foward conduction mode and clamps at just below the ground wire
(around -1 volt depending on the current it is absorbing).
With the zener reversed like you said, the positive wire voltage would
be clamped to the forward conducting voltage (around +1 volt) when it
was attempted to turn the coil on thus blowing the fuse for the driver
circuit and/or damaging the driver.
In reality, the Zener would never go into zener (reverse conduction)
mode in this application. It does have the secondary benefit of
clamping the positive wire to whatever the zener voltage rating is if a
*positive* spike were to come in from elsewhere (but it won't come from
this coil). But that's not why it was designed in for this application.
The technical rationale for using a zener for a back-emf snubbing
application is that they are, by design, optimized for *short*
*duration* *high* *current* situations in a small package (internally
mechanically and thermally designed for high *local* heating and
electrical stresses), whereas a regular diode is rated for current under
steady state conditions (high watts absorbed by thermal mass), and so if
it were to have the same (short-duration) current capability as the
zener's (short-duration) rating, it's package would be much larger, and
more expensive. IOW - to get the same high current rating in a regular
diode as what the zener can handle on a short-term basis, the regular
diode would be larger (and for the high volume manufacturer)
significantly more expensive.
If you get a 600 volt 1 amp regular diode, it should work, but a 20 volt
.5 or 1 watt zener would be preferred (and smaller).
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Richard Ahlquist
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
Well #@$#$#@!$#@!!@#$
I left my house to come to work this morning and made it about 1 mile
and it went into limp. It went into limp while i was coming to a stop
at a stop sign. I stopped, shut the car off and restarted. It never
went back into limp and I drove it all the way to wrok mostly on back
roads.
I tried the key trick for retrieving error codes (on-off-on ....etc)
and got nothing at all.
So as it sits its more intermittient than it was before but its still
limping.
The only thing totally different today than any other time was it was
cool, in the 60's and there was heavy dew this morning.
Is there any way to 100% find out what caused it to go into limp? Last
time the computer didnt show any codes.
If it were youre car what would you start with replacing at this
point? The TCM? Wiring? The A/C is still disabled so i guess that
wasnt the whole problem.
NewMan
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:45:46 -0400, Richard Ahlquist
><tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
>
>Well #@$#$#@!$#@!!@#$
>
>I left my house to come to work this morning and made it about 1 mile
>and it went into limp. It went into limp while i was coming to a stop
>at a stop sign. I stopped, shut the car off and restarted. It never
>went back into limp and I drove it all the way to wrok mostly on back
>roads.
>
>I tried the key trick for retrieving error codes (on-off-on ....etc)
>and got nothing at all.
>
The "key trick" only allows you to read codes from the ENGINE
computer. The transmission computer is completely different.
>So as it sits its more intermittient than it was before but its still
>limping.
>
>The only thing totally different today than any other time was it was
>cool, in the 60's and there was heavy dew this morning.
>
>Is there any way to 100% find out what caused it to go into limp? Last
>time the computer didnt show any codes.
>
>If it were youre car what would you start with replacing at this
>point? The TCM? Wiring? The A/C is still disabled so i guess that
>wasnt the whole problem.
I would not start replacing ANYTHING. What you need to do is find a
competent shop that actually knows what it is doing. Looks like this
is a wiring harness problem. But the problem needs to be properly
diagnosed.
Find a good shop, and just drop the car off to them. Tell them you do
not expect to get soaked for the work, but by the same token they can
have the car as long as they need to find the problem (within reason).
Give them a month if yo have to. They can use your car as back-fill
for times when things are slow.
On the plus side, if the problem is becoming more frequent, then it
should by the same token be easier to find.
If all else fails, then find a Five Star Dealer and drop it off to
them. A friend of mine had a weird problem with his Firefly stalling
on the highway at 80kmh! Just driving along fine, and sudden
"flame-out". Three shops did not do the trick! So I told him to take
it to GM. The catch??? If you schedule your repair far enough in
advance, then tell the dealer that you need a loaner car! My friend
needed the car to get to work. So called GM, and sure enough, he had
to wait a month, but they gave hime a loaner car. GM was able to
reproduce the problem - but it took them almost 4 weeks to fix! The
final computer print-out was over 5 pages long of the work performed.
They were so embarased that they only charged him for about 1/4 of the
work done - about $800. That $800 bill was much less than it would
have cost him to rent the loaner car for a month. He got the car back,
and it was indeed fixed - not to mention largely rebuild! lol.
So find a DC 5 Star dealer, and talk to the service manager. See if
they can do the same kind of deal for you! Book in advance, get a
loaner, and let them clunk away. Just make sure that you set a limit
with the manager - say $800? and tell them that if the bill will be
more than the agreed amount, that they MUST get your permission to
proceed. A lot of service forms acutally have a section for this right
on them. If you fill it out, it covers your butt.
Good luck with it my man.
I had a 1988 Olds Cutlass that had in intermittent flame-out. Never
did get it fixed, just traded it in. Fortunately for me it did not
flame-out while they were test-driving it! :))))))
@nowhere.com me!
spikes in any circuit of this type are enormous and will usually "smoke" a
diode or zener in very short order. Something that will clamp the surge at
the level the semiconductor can handle.. these spikes are VERY short and
the "ring" fades fast so I would suspect 1 watt resistor would be enough..
Been many years since I have been involved in this stuff so.. YMMV.
Ted
Homer Simpson
Where is this zener located in the A/C harness? I have a 94 Caravan
that has the 41TE in it (A604) that is acting kinda funny. It's not to
the extent of your problem, but for a few dollars (I probably have a
few zeners in my parts box), it's one step to get past.
Richard Ahlquist
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
Ok called AutoZone, they said they would be happy to hook an ODB II up
and read the codes for me. I went down there and the tranny went into
limp 2 times on the way. When I got there he brought out their store
Acctron ODB II scanner hooked it up, turned on the key and got link
errors the 3 times he tried it. So he sent me off saying I need to
find an electrician. They also balked initally when i told them it was
a 95 saying it needed to be ODB II...
Drove it back and it went into limp. Neurtal, killed engine, restart
and it was fine the remainder of the way back. I am at a loss here.
Could it be something else electrical like battery/alternator? Should
I just replace the blasted TCM or is the engine computer also likely
having issues since both times my car has been scanned for codes in my
presense it had communication issues?
nobody
wrote:
>Where is this zener located in the A/C harness? I have a 94 Caravan
>that has the 41TE in it (A604) that is acting kinda funny. It's not to
>the extent of your problem, but for a few dollars (I probably have a
>few zeners in my parts box), it's one step to get past.
The one mechanic who has replied to me about this question indicates
its either on the A/C compressor or actually in the cluth coil. One
place I found this;
havent had a chance to look at my compressor yet to see if that would
work. Note that link is for a 95 stratus you will need to see if they
have one for your van.
Ken Weitzel
Hi Richard...
Can you tolerate yet one more suggestion from an old retired
electrical guy? If so, I think I have what may be a good one,
but please don't try it unless and until you hear a blessing
from one of the mechanics here. I'd hate to contribute to your
problems...
If so, here goes :)
We know that limp mode forces the transmission to downshift to
second. Can we also safely assume that limp mode will force
an UPshift from first to second?
If that's a safe bet, then how 'bout parking your machine about
a half inch away from something immovable and un-damagable.
Only a half inch or so, so nobody can possibly get between
the car and the "thing" (bridge abutment?)
Take off your tie, no long sleeves, put the 4 year old safely
indoors. Chock the wheels firmly - even backwards, in case
the foolish car decides reverse gear is a good idea. Parking
brake on firmly.
Start the motor, put it in drive, and with a long stick or
handle end of a screwdriver poke, push, prod, and twist a
bit each of the cables, connectors, sensors, etc. Do a
little bit of percussion on each of the sensors. Do the
same with the tcm. (Remember that if you get near to the
knock sensors a reaction from the engine is expected and a
good thing)
If you don't get finished within 3 or 4 minutes, shut her
down, let it cool, and start again from where you left off.
Obviously what you're looking for is something that will
cause it to shift... I'm sure you'll hear it if and when it
does :)
If and when you find something reliably repeatable, you'll
be awful close to the solution methinks :)
Now hopefully one or more of the mechs will either bless
or condemn this idea.
Take care.
Ken
NewMan
Electricity plays such a big part in things these days...
My 94 Acclaim acted really weird once. I was scared to crap that the
thing was going to need a major repair by the behviour.
But when I took it to my local shop, they found an intermittent short
in one of the battery cells!
$100 and I was on my way, my problems never came back!
Considering they could have soaked me something terrible... they now
get almost all my business.
Have you taken a close look at the battery? Over time crap drops off
the plates - CONDUCTIVE CRAP. It builds up in the bottom of each cell.
If the height of the crap reaches the bottom of the plates, then you
get a short. If you are lucky, it just shorts and you can easily find
the problem. If you are not lucky, it is an intermittent short!
Such a short can wreak havoc with any and all electronics - including
your ECM and TCM!
Hey, keep it simple! This should be easy to check. But even if you
just wanted to swap in another battery temporarily, that would tell
the tale!
Just a thought. Wouldn't it be a kicker if that was the problem after
all your agony to date?
Good luck.
On Fri, 26 May 2006 13:50:20 -0400, Richard Ahlquist
Homer Simpson
wrote:
>Hi Richard...
>
>Can you tolerate yet one more suggestion from an old retired
>electrical guy? If so, I think I have what may be a good one,
>but please don't try it unless and until you hear a blessing
>from one of the mechanics here. I'd hate to contribute to your
>problems...
>
>If so, here goes :)
>
>We know that limp mode forces the transmission to downshift to
>second. Can we also safely assume that limp mode will force
>an UPshift from first to second?
Yes. These transmissions are electronically shifted. The only "true"
hydraulic gears are 2nd and Reverse.
>
>If that's a safe bet, then how 'bout parking your machine about
>a half inch away from something immovable and un-damagable.
>Only a half inch or so, so nobody can possibly get between
>the car and the "thing" (bridge abutment?)
>
>Take off your tie, no long sleeves, put the 4 year old safely
>indoors. Chock the wheels firmly - even backwards, in case
>the foolish car decides reverse gear is a good idea. Parking
>brake on firmly.
If the parking brake is properly adjusted, it should hold the vehicle
in place if it is at idle and in gear. There is also the option of
putting the vehicle up on jackstands....
>
>Start the motor, put it in drive, and with a long stick or
>handle end of a screwdriver poke, push, prod, and twist a
>bit each of the cables, connectors, sensors, etc. Do a
>little bit of percussion on each of the sensors. Do the
>same with the tcm. (Remember that if you get near to the
>knock sensors a reaction from the engine is expected and a
>good thing)
>
>If you don't get finished within 3 or 4 minutes, shut her
>down, let it cool, and start again from where you left off.
>
>Obviously what you're looking for is something that will
>cause it to shift... I'm sure you'll hear it if and when it
>does :)
>
>If and when you find something reliably repeatable, you'll
>be awful close to the solution methinks :)
>
>Now hopefully one or more of the mechs will either bless
>or condemn this idea.
>
>Take care.
>
>Ken
>
Hope this helped.....
hart...@hartless.com
don't think so! You see the problem is this guy has not taken it to the
Dealership, so effectively he is not " a good customer" So why is the
dealership going to bend over backwards and give a loaner for a month, and
only charge him $800?
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NewMan
Dealers charge PREMIUM DOLLAR. Basically, it was their fault that they
could not find the problem quickly. They were sure they would have had
the guys car working in a day or two. But the agreement was to provide
him a loaner car until his was fixed!
My friend did NOT just walkin and say give me a car for a month.
Techincally, it is not what he wanted. All he wanted was 1) wheels to
get to work, and 2) his car fixed right.
He did go to the dealership at my suggestion after seveal shops could
not find the problem. And I hear this more and more from independant
shops. I was having a problem with the ABS on my 94 Acclaim. And my #1
shop told me that there was ONE thing they would try to fix it, and if
that did not work they were refering me to the dealer because the DC
ABS system on the car was "a piece of crap".
Be that as it may, the dealers are the experts (supposedly). 5 star
dealers are supposed to get that rating for superior customer service.
So, if you are willing to pay the dealer service rate, and give them
the time required to properly service the car, then why would they not
welcome you and attempt to accomodate your needs???
After all, if they fix the car quickly and correctly, would you not
tend to become a return / repeat customer????
Dealers usually have a fleet of cars that are offered to customers as
loaners. It is a pure marketing write-off for them! They claim the
depreciation as a write-off, and sell the cars as "new" "used"
vehicles with full warranty for less, but they are not losing money!
The theory is that if you are getting your OLD car fixed (again) and
they give you this nice NEW car, some people are going to say "WOW, I
really like these new cars! Better gas mileage, nicer creature
comforts, easy to drive! I am tired of getting that old clunker fixed,
I'm going to trade it in on one of these!"
Lo and behold, if the new car is good, it can actually sell itself. It
is a salesmans dream! A satisified customer just walks in out of the
blue and says "I want it, now!". Sale is signed, sealed, and car
delivered with minimum work required. (ANother9one bites the dust! ;)
Dealerships exist for two reasons: 1) to sell cars, and 2) to provide
service. It seems logical to me that is the service is good, then I
would tend to want to reward the good service with future business
either as repeast service, or when looking at new cars. A GOOD
dealership should not only know this, but should practice this. If a
dealer does not, then it is time to find a new dealer.
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:4do4j4F...@individual.net...
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > ...Most likely some engineer specced something like a 20 or
> > so volt zener with the idea that it would be connected anode to positive
> > and cathod to negative, and when the EMF collapsed in the clutch
> > coil the zener would clip the hundred volt or so pulse. However, a
> > regular diode connected anode to negative, cathod to positive, does
> > the same job since when the EMF collapses it will flow backwards
> > and in that case the diode looks like a direct short...
>
> No. You're half right. Whether a zener or non-zener is used, it would
> be placed anode to negative, cathode to positive (keep in mind that the
> terminology for the zener terminals is for the forward - non-zener mode
Damn, Bill, I suspected I had that screwed up. I could never remember
current flow direction in a diode.
>
> The technical rationale for using a zener for a back-emf snubbing
> application is that they are, by design, optimized for *short*
> *duration* *high* *current* situations in a small package (internally
> mechanically and thermally designed for high *local* heating and
> electrical stresses), whereas a regular diode is rated for current under
> steady state conditions (high watts absorbed by thermal mass), and so if
> it were to have the same (short-duration) current capability as the
> zener's (short-duration) rating, it's package would be much larger, and
> more expensive. IOW - to get the same high current rating in a regular
> diode as what the zener can handle on a short-term basis, the regular
> diode would be larger (and for the high volume manufacturer)
> significantly more expensive.
>
That one I did remember, which is why I said to get the biggest wattage
you could fit in there.
I think the cost difference is under $5 between the two, and I've always
leaned toward massively derating replacement components that have
failed on the assumption that if they had been properly sized in the
beginning
they wouldn't have failed.
> If you get a 600 volt 1 amp regular diode, it should work, but a 20 volt
> .5 or 1 watt zener would be preferred (and smaller).
>
Only preferred if your manufacturing, where saving a buck or so on a
component means a huge amount.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> On Fri, 26 May 2006 07:59:54 -0400, Richard Ahlquist
> <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
>
> Ok called AutoZone, they said they would be happy to hook an ODB II up
> and read the codes for me.
Richard,
This is a 1995 car which is an OBD-1 not an OBD-II car. Autozone
was correct, (surprising) As the other
poster said you cannot get trans codes from the key on-off method
on this car.
Please review picture # 78 on the following pictorial that I created
last year:
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/94tcpics/project.html
See that scanner there, that OTC 4000E? That's an OBD-1 scanner.
Autozone does not sell these because when new they cost $2K and
it's been 11 years since a production vehicle used OBD-1 Nor do they
have them behind the counter.
Now, on the above pictorial please review pic #57. See the sensors
above that shiny box in the center? Those are the input and output
speed sensors. Notice how the input speed sensor is right under the
input and output lines for the tranny oil? That is a common leak point,
what happens is the rubber tranny lines soften and start weeping fluid,
the fluid wicks down to the input speed sensor and softens the
rubber, thus making the connections in the sensor become intermittent.
Get yourself some spray contact cleaner from an electronics store,
unplug those connectors and spray down each side really good to drive all
the oil out. Then use a small paperclip and insert it into each hole in the
plug to make sure that each contact has enough "grab" left to make a good
connection.
Now, follow the wires from those sensors up to the trans computer. There
are a couple places they pass very close to the exhaust manifold, make sure
they haven't come in contact and got burnt.
Now at the TCM take the big connector off and soak it and the plug down
with your spray contact cleaner.
When you first went to the dealer, they said the TPS, and the two sensors
were bad. They got that info by using a Chrysler scanner that can read
those codes. Have you done the analog voltmeter test on the TPS that I
told you to do yet?
> and it was fine the remainder of the way back. I am at a loss here.
>
Why are you at a loss? People have told you it's probably an intermittent
contact and to check the wiring harness and sensor connections, but at
no point have you said that you did so. You said you replaced the input
and output speed sensors and the problem didn't go away. Thus, the
old sensors were most likely not bad. Yet - the dealership told you they
got codes for failed sensors. So if the sensors wern't bad (as proved by
the substitution) and the TCM is saying they are bad, then the problem is
most likely between the TCM and the sensors, and that means all of the
wiring and contacts.
> Could it be something else electrical like battery/alternator? Should
> I just replace the blasted TCM or is the engine computer also likely
> having issues since both times my car has been scanned for codes in my
> presense it had communication issues?
The TCM talks on the CCD bus and the engine computer in your car
does not, that is why there are 2 separate connectors for a scanner, one
for the CCD bus to read the TCM (and other devices that plug into the CCD
bus) and the other connector to talk to the engine computer.
Richard, I have spent probably close to $400 on my used OTC scanner,
plus about another $100 on a literal pile of factory service manuals for my
vehicles. With the labor I've put into my vehicles, those tools have paid
for themselves many times over, if I had paid a mechanic to do the amount
of work I've done.
Being able to do your own work diagnosing computerized vehicles means you
have to get the right tools to do it, it means you have to do some reading
and
learning. You so far aren't doing any of this, you are just trying to get a
lot of
people to make guesses for you. When people have suggested to you things to
do that appear to be difficult - like researching, getting a manual,
checking wiring,
and so on, you ignore those suggestions. When people have suggested
easy-to-do
things like replacing the TCM, replacing the alternator or battery, you have
jumped
at those ideas. It is no wonder your having problems, your whole approach
to troubleshooting is massively fucked in the head.
Ted
Phil T
Your symptoms are identical to mine : goes into limp; shut it down;
start it up and it's fine; might stay fine for a few minutes or even a
day; then it comes back, etc etc.
In my case the problem was fixed by replacing a wiring harness. The
dealer went through thousands of dollars of mechanical parts with no
effect before they finally nailed it as an electrical problem. This was
all 7 or 8 years ago so I no longer have the details about which harness.
The work was done at this dealer :
http://www.taylor.fivestardealers.ca/
Perhaps your dealer can get in touch with them for advice. The
Technical Dept for Chrysler Canada got involved with this one because it
was a warranty job and the car was Leased by G.E. Capital - and G.E.
carries a big stick.
nobody
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>Why are you at a loss? People have told you it's probably an intermittent
>contact and to check the wiring harness and sensor connections, but at
>no point have you said that you did so. You said you replaced the input
>and output speed sensors and the problem didn't go away. Thus, the
>old sensors were most likely not bad. Yet - the dealership told you they
>got codes for failed sensors. So if the sensors wern't bad (as proved by
>the substitution) and the TCM is saying they are bad, then the problem is
>most likely between the TCM and the sensors, and that means all of the
>wiring and contacts.
Ted I have checked the contacts, and did so again last night. The
tranny shop allegedly did as well, I went as far last night as
removing the computer and burnishing the contact pins with a
scotchbrite pad.
I'm doing my best within my means however the best option for a quick
diagnosis may be purchasing a $4k scanner and trying to see the
problem happen however I cant do that. Maybe the following will make
you understand.
Hi Ted, my name is Richard. Just an average Joe trying to make ends
meet. I and my family live paycheck to paycheck so when something
catastrophic like this happens its devestating. Thus why I havent just
dropped it at a dealer and said 'fix it'. I cant afford that, I had to
get a loan to pay for the botched rebuild. Now my cash reserves are at
a minimum, every decision I make here counts. So far my car problems
have stranded my wife and kid at home for nearly two weeks and through
that cost my daughter the ability to get signed up for the dance
clases she wanted.
So again I say I am taking every possible suggestion that I can
afford. However so far I have had dodge dealer pull what to me nearly
amounts to bait and switch, a tranny shop pull some bullshit outta
their hat that they 'only fix transmission not the controls' despite
their assurance that if the rebuild didnt fix the issue they would
find it.
As for the cheap suggestions like TCM, Alternator, Battery the reason
I jumped on those is its very obviously either one of those or wiring.
Last night I tested the charging system on the way home. While idling
along at 35mph I Turned on every eletrical accessory in the car. I
also loaded the systm by running all 4 power windows are the same
moment, holding their switches in the close position while they were
fully closed. Nothing happened so to me this really leaves alternator
and battery out. So i am left with wiring and computer. If there is
something I am missing someone may correct me or they may not.
My approach to troublshooting is fairly logical, Ive done a lot of my
own automotive work over the past 20 years(the first serious piece of
work I did was rebuild an a904 tranny on my Dart that my dad gave me
so i could drive it), however I am in a position now where I dont have
the tools or equipment I used to have access to so its much harder to
accomplish tasks.
I'm sorry if my spit and bailingwire approach is pissing you off but I
am doing the best I can with the little time and money I have.
hart...@hartless.com
write-offs. And they do cost the dealership money. Do you know what the
insurance rates are for Loaner cars? Garage policies are over $30 a day per
car. And since they are a vehicle that is also for resale, it is not a Write
off! Why do you think the loaners have miles on them? Main reason is because
they are Used cars bought at Auction (ex-rental / ex-company cars) DC even
recommendsdealers not use new cars, to begin with, and if it was a new car
put into service the dealer would lose there shirt. And it is that reason
that MOST dealers do not even give Demos to sales people anymore because
they are money losers. And the fact is depending on the size of the
dealership they can see over 100 Service customers a day. And the dealership
will not have 100 loaner cars for them. So they have three maybe 5 max. And
they will not give one to someone who comes in for the first time with a
used car that was never purchased from them. They keep them available for
there customers, and repeat customers.
hart...@hartless.com
the dealer replacing all the parts without a solution. As a matter of Fact
DC more then likely ended up getting charged back every penny they spent
replacing parts on the car, that did not fix the problem. GE does not wield
a big stick with Chrysler. DC Canada actually does not look highly with GE
as Ge Fleet services does not properly insure that there fleet vehicles are
maintained, and DC refuses to take back any GE fleet vehicle back because of
it.
Richard Ahlquist
Went for a drive to get gas, went into limp very soon after that. So I
took it over to Advance Auto parts to see if their code scanner could
have any better luck. It was able to read it. Here is what it dumped.
ENG: 24/P0123
TPS Voltage High
ENG: 33/-----
A/C Clutch Relay CKT
Not much help there, the 33 code according to the code list I have
says it could also be the following;
A/C pressure sensor volts too high
A/C pressure sensor volts too lo
Speed control switch always low
Speed control switch always high
Speed control solenoid circuits
High speed condenser fan control relay circuit
High fan and high fan ground control relay circuit
So nothing for the transmission or why it went into limp because
according to the tranny manual the TPS cant force the tranny into
limp.
I did notice today that the tranny is exhibiting two other odd
symptoms. Sometimes when at a stop, it takes time for it to go into
1st gear and shift rather hard. Other times when coming to a stop it
will downshift roughly at 28mph as I am stopping.
I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
special ordered.
So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
$90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.
NewMan
>Obviously you know nothing about service loaner cars. They are not
>write-offs.
I said they were a TAX write off, not a collission write off.
> And they do cost the dealership money.
All of which is written off by accountants as a "cost of doing
business".
> Do you know what the
>insurance rates are for Loaner cars? Garage policies are over $30 a day per
>car. And since they are a vehicle that is also for resale, it is not a Write
>off!
They write down the value of the car at an accellerate depreciation
rate. Then, they sell the car off for much less than "new", but for
higher than the depreciated value on the "books". So it IS still
profitable for them to do this.
> Why do you think the loaners have miles on them? Main reason is because
>they are Used cars bought at Auction (ex-rental / ex-company cars)
Not sure how it is now, but this never used to be the case. Loaner
cars from DEALERSHIPS around here used to be cars that were at most 2
model years old. Now independant service garages... mostly had the
most aweful beaters umaginable.
> DC even
>recommendsdealers not use new cars, to begin with, and if it was a new car
>put into service the dealer would lose there shirt. And it is that reason
>that MOST dealers do not even give Demos to sales people anymore because
>they are money losers.
You lose the value, but get a tax credit in return. Like I said, cost
of doing business.
> And the fact is depending on the size of the
>dealership they can see over 100 Service customers a day. And the dealership
>will not have 100 loaner cars for them.
No shit Sherlock. (pardon the sarcasm)
> So they have three maybe 5 max. And
>they will not give one to someone who comes in for the first time with a
>used car that was never purchased from them. They keep them available for
>there customers, and repeat customers.
>
Like I said, you have to book a loaner car in advance! This is because
the dealer only has a limited number of service loaner cars. I think
this dealer had 5 or maybe 10 MAXIMUM, and they did NOT advertise the
fact either.
Fact still remains, business is built - or lost - one customer at a
time. Of course the longstanding customers are going to get "dibs" on
loaner cars. But if the OP books far enough in advance, and discusses
the matter with the Service Manager first, then there really should
not be a problem! If there is, don't go to that dealer.
Most dealres I have dealt with are at least approachable as long as
you are not being demanding or an asshole. You approach, and it is a
business propsition. You are looking for service, and good quality
work at a fair price. In return you are offering customer loyalty, and
a lonstanding, mutually benficial, business relationship.
Surely a competant service manager could see the advantage in gaining
such a customer, yes???
Besides, at this point what has the OP got to loose??? The worst the
dealership could say is "No", in which case they loose the business,
and the OP is no further behind than before!
To the OP, Go for it! No guts, no glory!
NewMan
Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III
trans fluid?
My A604 used to downshift exactly as you described after being
rebuilt. It was not until I had the fluid and filter replaced a couple
of years later that the problem went away. I discovered that most
trans shops used Dexron III with an additional addtion of "LubeGuard".
The shop that dis the fuild & filter change used ATF+4!
Double check with the shop that rebuilt your trans several times. My
bet is that they used the wrong fluid to save money (their money) and
which if left in your trans will lead to premature failure and repeat
business for them!
>I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
>wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
>Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
>special ordered.
>
>So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
>Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
>$90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
>up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.
You know something, this is STILL a "shotgun" approach! No matter how
logical your approach, you do NOT know if ANY of the above will solve
your problem without a definitave diagnosis!
From where I sit, you simply cannot aford NOT to go and get the
problem diagnosed! Until you have a diagnosis, you could just keep
pouring money into the thing!
I am sure you realize at this point that your transmission may have
been just fine to begin with! How much was that? $1800????
I think that the dealer could spend 2 hours on this, so $180, and then
tell you what the F&ck is wrong. THEN, rather than replace a whole
bunch of parts and pray you got "the one", you could spend exactly
what you HAVE to spend and get the car fixed properly.
By avoiding spending money for a proper diagnosis, you are being penny
wise, and pound foolish.
Hey it is your dime, but YOU are the one who said you were trying to
save money. I don't see how spending $1800, plus how much for a tow,
and then throwing another - what - $700 at this problem with NO IDEA
of whether or not this will fix the problem is "saving money".
How are you going to feel if you spend the extra $700 (plus tax), and
the problem persists????
How much is this car worth anyways???
Just my $0.02
hart...@hartless.com
Legally he cannot write of the losses of a loaner then resale the car.
That's fraud. He has to eat those losses. They can only write down the value
of depreciation on vehicles not licensed, not on vehicles being used as
loaners. Those have to be licensed to the dealership, and all losses on "of
use" vehicles are the dealerships responsibility. So he buys a car with
12,000 km's at the auction for $15,000, licenses it, insures it and uses it
as a dealership loaner, after one year, it has 30,000 km's and has a value
of $10,000. Guess what, he lost $5,000 in depreciation, license and
insurance fees. He cannot write it off as he is reselling it as a used car
on his lot. So he just ate over $5000, per car! That is why some dealerships
get tight giving out loaners especially slow periods like winter. They are
not selling cars, not getting service work, and are loosing money. So they
clamp up extra's. Did you know most dealerships actually lose money in
January and February.
I really love how you guys think dealerships are all rolling in the dough.
Do you even know how much it costs the average dealership a day, just to
turn on the lights?
I used to work with DC and called on many dealers. Did you know that one
dealer actually had a Honda Motorcycle shop, and made more money selling a
Honda lawnmower, then on a car? Made more then double selling a $26,000
goldwing then two Fully loaded Gr. Cherokke limiteds?
Richard Ahlquist
<cloaked...@NOSPAM.yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III
>trans fluid?
>
You are probably right, it wouldnt suprise me in the least hell I dont
even think thats my tranny in the car anymore. The one that was in
there when I took it to the shop had writing on top in that yellow
paint pen wrecking yards use and had a dar dirty bellhousing. This one
is shiny and clean. No I dont think they cleaned mine because at the
place where the writing was is a factory sticker of some sort that
looks like its been on there for years. In addition when they replaced
the #$@$@ solenoid pack they didnt put the sount suppressor back over
it so not the solenoids are much louder. Maybe I will have the DC Shop
just flush the fluid just in case the old tranny shop lies...
>
>>I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
>>wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
>>Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
>>special ordered.
>>
>>So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
>>Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
>>$90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
>>up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.
>
>You know something, this is STILL a "shotgun" approach! No matter how
>logical your approach, you do NOT know if ANY of the above will solve
>your problem without a definitave diagnosis!
>
>From where I sit, you simply cannot aford NOT to go and get the
>problem diagnosed! Until you have a diagnosis, you could just keep
>pouring money into the thing!
Here is my problem, I took it to Dodge once, and they offierd to 'fix'
my problem by replacing the two speed sensors and the TPS for $510. I
replaced the speed sensors and it had no effect. I am now dealing with
a different dealership though.
What I want isnt too much to ask, I want to walk in and drop off my
car. Have them fix the damn limp mode issue and have it BE FIXED. The
problem is its so damn incosistiently going into limp mode that no
dealership is going to agree to this. They can change out 100 things
and it may still go into limp a week later. Since none of the local
dealerships is giving loaners I cant afford to have my car in the shop
every other week while they figure out wth is wrong. Thats why I am
moving to the shotgun approach. Yes its stupid to buy an engine when
the only thing that needs to be changed is a leaky valve cover gasket,
however, when you cant find the bloody leak and dont have the luxury
of spare vehicles to drive while someone figures out your problem you
may just have to go BAM.
>I am sure you realize at this point that your transmission may have
>been just fine to begin with! How much was that? $1800????
Initally my transmission was fine, when I took it to Dodge. I replaced
the sensors took it to work and it dropped into limp on the freeway.
That evening when I went to leave work there was no 2nd gear left.
>I think that the dealer could spend 2 hours on this, so $180, and then
>tell you what the F&ck is wrong. THEN, rather than replace a whole
>bunch of parts and pray you got "the one", you could spend exactly
>what you HAVE to spend and get the car fixed properly.
Thats assuming in those 2 hours it goes into limp. Since the computer
isnt returning any codes how are they to guess it? Seriously I'm not
being a piss ass here.
>By avoiding spending money for a proper diagnosis, you are being penny
>wise, and pound foolish.
>
>Hey it is your dime, but YOU are the one who said you were trying to
>save money. I don't see how spending $1800, plus how much for a tow,
>and then throwing another - what - $700 at this problem with NO IDEA
>of whether or not this will fix the problem is "saving money".
>
>How are you going to feel if you spend the extra $700 (plus tax), and
>the problem persists????
The tow was $155 of which my insurance will reimbusre $50. I am trying
to save money but I have other costs to weigh too such as the impact
at home of not having the car for a month.
>How much is this car worth anyways???
I paid $3800+tax for the car on 2/23/06
>Just my $0.02
Always welcome!!
Ken Weitzel
Richard Ahlquist wrote:
Hi Richard...
Just thinking out of the box...
Your original message had the dealer wanting to change the
in/out speed sensors AND the tps. You changed the sensors,
but left the tps alone.
Now your read-out indicates a tps fault.
Is it at all possible that you're not going into limp mode
at all, but rather that the faulty tps is telling the ecu
that you've have it completely floored, and the ecu is in turn
telling the tcu to go into "passing" (2nd) gear?
Running away now :)
Take care.
Ken
Richard Ahlquist
wrote:
>Is it at all possible that you're not going into limp mode
>at all, but rather that the faulty tps is telling the ecu
>that you've have it completely floored, and the ecu is in turn
>telling the tcu to go into "passing" (2nd) gear?
>
>Running away now :)
>
ROTFLMAO
Cute idea and not entirely impossible. Since when it happens the car
stumbles significantly I imagine it could be happening this way. Heck
at this point I'm nto ruling anything out.
treeli...@yahoo.com
I had piped up about the ATF +3. Someone here used AT +4, but the
non-synthetic ATF +3 is closest to what the A604 was designed for. I
also had the TCM flashed but my problem had been spelled out, a
shifting problem with tell-tale shuddering around 37 mph. Common enough
that it had a nickname, the 37 mph shudder :)
Now about the harness. Expensive. From computers and electronics, there
can be very strange problems caused by connectors. Here's some ideas.
Reseating of course. Cleaning up with alcohol of course, maybe a fine
screwdriver, Q-tips, maybe a very fine file but be careful not to scrap
away any metal coatings. Using an eraser and more alcohol. And then
there used to be a very expensive, not expensive by car standards, but
a chemical that ran around $22 for a very small bottle that could be
applied to connectors, like computer boards, when all else seemed to
fail. They must still make stuff like that? Gets rid of gremlins, as
these unknown, bad connectored, signals were called. Maybe have new
names now.
I guess if all else failed, then I get out the ohmmeter and very
carefully, usually with straight pins, not pretty but somewhat
effective, I would take readings on all the wires that I suspected of
problems. I don't know if this is possible in your harness. Maybe the
harness is round so you can't pin prick the wires easily as in a ribbon
or straight harness. In any case, from tip to stern, I would want to
see a reading similar to the ohmmeter with the leads touching
themselves directly, usually around 0.6 ohms for my good but cheap 4
digits multimeter.
Just some more thoughts, but from a signal processing viewpoint, not an
automobile since I also don't do cars any more. You might also try
Allpar.com and other places where there might be other DC people who
are expert mechanics or trouble-shooters. I got a lot of advice from
Allpar.com and from this newsgroup. A lot of very technical stuff came
from Allpar.com.
A long time ago, when Chrysler was owned by the Americans and not the
Germans, there used to be a "zone representative" who would intercede.
Usually in case of money disputes but also bring access to technical
expertise. That was really nice to do. But then the cars had room to
work on the engines and I could follow the FSM a lot easier too. In any
case, or this case, does this still exist? A special place to call in
Chrysler when having really bad problems? Sometimes the I would
complain and complain again and the zone rep would come down to the
dealer.
What happened with the zener diode, did you replace it? Maybe throw a
toroidal choke around the harness? Don't laugh. On back of CRT
monitors, they still have those on the signal cables, it's a round
thingee, metallic, looks like a tubular magnet. Anything to keep the
signals flowing and true.
NewMan
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The stuff used to be called "Cramolin". It came in a RED and a BLUE
formula. The RED was a contact cleaner, and the Blue was a contact
preservative.
I used these both on audio connections, and in automotive
applications. They worked great.
Here is a link to the manufacturer:
http://www.itwcp.de/en/index.html
It is now called "ContaClean"
"CONTACLEAN"
"Oil-based Powerful Contact Cleaner dissolving Oxide and Sulphide
Layers.
"CONTACLEAN efficiently removes oxide and sulphide layers from
metallic contact surfaces of any kind. Simultaneously, special
inhibitors ensure long-lasting lubrication and corrosion protection.
Reduces contact resistance that leads to failures, and eliminates
voltage drops. Durable preservation of the perfect operational
reliability of all electro-mechanical contacts. CONTACLEAN has been a
well-proven agent in radio and television engineering as well as in
laboratory and after-sales service for a long time.
Unfortunately, I have no idea where the heck you buy the stuff. A
quickie Google shows that it is supposedly available in the USA, but
there is NO reference I could find to a store you might locate the
stuff at. If you can find it, it IS the best.
Failing that, there is also DeOXit from http://www.caig.com/
This may be more available.
>I guess if all else failed, then I get out the ohmmeter and very
>carefully, usually with straight pins, not pretty but somewhat
>effective, I would take readings on all the wires that I suspected of
>problems. I don't know if this is possible in your harness. Maybe the
>harness is round so you can't pin prick the wires easily as in a ribbon
>or straight harness. In any case, from tip to stern, I would want to
>see a reading similar to the ohmmeter with the leads touching
>themselves directly, usually around 0.6 ohms for my good but cheap 4
>digits multimeter.
>
Yeah, but the problem in intermittent! Make sure you use a fairly
sensitive ANALOG meter. If you use a digital meter, the display wont
even flicker. At least with an ANALOG meter movement, an instantaneous
pulse will case the needle to deflect a bit, and you have a chance of
seeing it.
Ted Mittelstaedt
<hart...@hartless.com> wrote in message
news:11487706...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
The other thing about this loaner car issue is that the idea that someone
bringing
in an "old clunker" to a dealership to get it fixed is going to come back
from
the loaner car and immediately buy a new car is a fantasy, it almost never
happens.
New car buyers typically aren't the kind of people that wring every last
mile out
of their car. A few of them are, but most are the folks that trade in their
2-4 year
old car for a new one. They aren't driving old clunkers, if anything they
are turning
the car in the second the warranty runs out.
The old clunker drivers are the folks on the bottom of the economic scale
who
cannot afford to depreciation loss of buying a new car. And they hardly
ever
go to a dealership, if the old clunker breaks down to the amount that an
independent cannot fix it, then off it goes to the wrecker, there's plenty
more
old clunkers where it came from.
The folks that could be enticed to go to a dealership for repairs who
normally frequent
independents are the folks that are first generation used car buyers, these
are
the folks that buy cars that the new car buyers have traded in. Thie cars
still have
a high enough blue book that the owners would seriously contemplate throwing
$1500
in repair costs at a dealership into them. They aren't going to want to buy
a new
car for replacement, and they aren't going to be that interested in buying a
used car
because they know that any used car they buy will probably be in no better
shape
than the one that they have.
The argument that NewMan is making is the sort of thing that sounds like
someone
who has no intention of buying a new car would be trying to use on a car
dealership
to con them out of a loaner car. It does not pass the sniff test. And also
I am always
suspicious of "tax write off" arguments anyway. In order for any business
to take advantage
of a "big tax write off" they have to have profit to write it off against.
What the hell good is
a $50,000 tax write off when the dealership has only declared a profit of
$20K for
the year?
And before anyone starts in with the dealership owners are rolling in dough
argument,
let me point out that just about all dealership owners pay themselves a
salary that gets
pulled out BEFORE profit is declared. If I owned a dealership that would
normally
declare a profit of $1,000,000 for the year, I'd pay myself a salary of
$990,000
and send most of it into a tax sheleter, and make for damn sure that the
dealership
only realized a very small profit. Thus any tax write offs would really be
coming off
my salary, since I'd have to reduce my salary to increase the dealership
profit so
they could then take the larger tax write off. Get it?
Ted
Ken Weitzel
Hi Richard...
If it's of any interest at all, I can tell you that your
tps is directly connected to your tcu.
The center connector pin (the slider on the pot - OR/DB) is connected
to both the pcm AND to pin 12 on your tcu.
The ground connector (BK/LB) is connected to both the pcm AND
to pin 51 on your tcu as well as other sensors.
The remaining connector (VT/WT) is the 5 volt supply to the tps
as well as other sensors.
Take care.
Ken
Ted Mittelstaedt
"nobody" <ju...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pcig729r2m891clh3...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 02:36:54 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Why are you at a loss? People have told you it's probably an
intermittent
> >contact and to check the wiring harness and sensor connections, but at
> >no point have you said that you did so. You said you replaced the input
> >and output speed sensors and the problem didn't go away. Thus, the
> >old sensors were most likely not bad. Yet - the dealership told you they
> >got codes for failed sensors. So if the sensors wern't bad (as proved by
> >the substitution) and the TCM is saying they are bad, then the problem is
> >most likely between the TCM and the sensors, and that means all of the
> >wiring and contacts.
>
> Ted I have checked the contacts, and did so again last night. The
> tranny shop allegedly did as well, I went as far last night as
> removing the computer and burnishing the contact pins with a
> scotchbrite pad.
>
Ok, well then let's look at it this way, we have to start making
some assumptions here.
The best would be to get it scanned again and see if the bad sensor
codes are still present. But, failing that, let's make some logical
deductions.
We start with a trans that's throwing itself into limp mode intermittently,
and dealership scan results that said the input and output speed sensors
are bad. I'll ignore the TPS for a moment, because as I mentioned already
you can independently test for that with an analog ohmmeter. (and you
should do this, to either eliminate it or to put the blame on it)
Occam's razor dictates that the most likely problem is in fact bad
speed sensors. So the first thing we do (after eliminating the TPS)
is replace the sensors.
But the problem does not go away. Now, the set of possibilities are:
1) internal trans problem that causes the input and output shaft speeds
to actually change speed to the illogical speeds that triggers the TCM to
set
a code. This is the least likely scenario since if it was the case this
would
be very repeatable, in fact it would probably be permanently in limp mode,
or at least go into it much more commonly.
2) Interference of the sensors from an outside agent - ie: A/C clutch or
surge -
easily checked by disconnecting all known outside agents.
3) New sensors are bad.
4) Wiring from TCM to the sensors is bad
5) TCM itself is bad.
Now, so far you have eliminated #1 (since you had the trans rebuilt) #2
(since
you disconnected the A/C) #4 (since you checked the wiring and
connections)
What is left is #3 and #5. (or possibly both)
A professional mechanic who had replaced #3 would test for #3 by simply
extracting both -new- sensors, and sending them back to his supplier and
claim both are bad. The supplier would replace them with new ones, and
the mechanic would install both new ones, send you on your way. If you came
back a second time, the professional mechanic would then be 99.9% sure
that the sensors were not the problem.
You could try this - assuming your new sensors are still under warranty.
I deplore this kind of thing though since it's shotgunning of the worst
kind,
I am only saying this because I know it goes on a lot in the business.
If that didn't work (most likely it would NOT work) the professional would
would probably then move to recommending replacement of the TCM itself.
If that didn't work then if the professional mechanic was -very- well versed
on auto electrical, he would start checking power supplied to the TCM
itself,
wiring, and so on. Of course, if he was doing his job he should do this
before
recommending TCM replacement but that is another story.
This is why you pay someone with that $4K scanner to do the diagnosis.
Where you got screwed over was that you didn't know before you got into
this that it would in fact require a $4K scanner to do diagnosis. That is
why I told you that it would, so that at least you would know.
> Maybe the following will make
> you understand.
>
> Hi Ted, my name is Richard. Just an average Joe trying to make ends
> meet. I and my family live paycheck to paycheck so when something
> catastrophic like this happens its devestating. Thus why I havent just
> dropped it at a dealer and said 'fix it'. I cant afford that, I had to
> get a loan to pay for the botched rebuild.
What about charging back the failed rebuild as some folks recommended
already? After all the trans shop was paid to fix your trans, they didn't
do it,
and you gave them a chance to honor their warranty and they have decided
not to do it. Why then do they deserve to get paid?
It isn't pissing me off, not really. It's frustrating me that people come
to
this group after they have got themselves stuck in a hole and then ask
for advice, rather than asking for advice before doing anything. In a
way I guess I do take it a bit personally, since I've spent a lot of time
documenting my own trans issues so that people can learn, and
I've also contributed to the Allpar website as have other people. Yet
people aren't reading those sites or Googling them before running
out and doing things.
It is also frustrating when people come to this group with NO
factory service manual, or with a Chiltons manual, and ignore the
advice from the group to either get a FSM or get a subscription to
Alldata DIY for their vehicle. Not that you are in this group of
people, I don't recall that anyone has told you to get a FSM.
Anyway, good luck with it, I think I've laid out for you how I would
go about fixing it. You are not in a good situation because until
you get that chargeback upheld by the credit card company, you are
going to have to hold on to a vehicle that isn't reliable enough to
use as a daily driver. You no longer have the option to just sell it
and cross your fingers and hope that the thing does not go into limp
mode while demonstrating it to a buyer. The only advice I can really
add to the above is the following: this is a mechanical system, it has
no intelligence, and something is causing it to behave this way. In
other words, there is definitely a fault somewhere, and if you or
someone else works with it for a long enough time, checking and
rechecking, your going to find it. Just keep that in mind and don't
give up.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 15:38:25 -0700, NewMan
> <cloaked...@NOSPAM.yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III
> >trans fluid?
> >
> You are probably right, it wouldnt suprise me in the least hell I dont
> even think thats my tranny in the car anymore. The one that was in
> there when I took it to the shop had writing on top in that yellow
> paint pen wrecking yards use and had a dar dirty bellhousing. This one
> is shiny and clean. No I dont think they cleaned mine because at the
> place where the writing was is a factory sticker of some sort that
> looks like its been on there for years. In addition when they replaced
> the #$@$@ solenoid pack they didnt put the sount suppressor back over
> it so not the solenoids are much louder.
The NEW selonoid packs do NOT come with a sound suppressor, they
redesigned them so that wasn't needed.
I already gave you a link here:
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/94tcpics/project.html
which had a nice picture of a freshly rebuilt trans with a selonoid pack on
it - did you see any sound suppressor? Did you even bother looking and
reading through the God-damned site?
> Maybe I will have the DC Shop
> just flush the fluid just in case the old tranny shop lies...
>
> >
> >>I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
> >>wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
> >>Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
> >>special ordered.
> >>
> >>So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
> >>Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
> >>$90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
> >>up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.
> >
> >You know something, this is STILL a "shotgun" approach! No matter how
> >logical your approach, you do NOT know if ANY of the above will solve
> >your problem without a definitave diagnosis!
> >
> >From where I sit, you simply cannot aford NOT to go and get the
> >problem diagnosed! Until you have a diagnosis, you could just keep
> >pouring money into the thing!
>
> Here is my problem, I took it to Dodge once, and they offierd to 'fix'
> my problem by replacing the two speed sensors and the TPS for $510. I
> replaced the speed sensors and it had no effect. I am now dealing with
> a different dealership though.
>
And, if you had paid the $510 you would have got genuine Mopar
sensors in there, and if it kept having problems then Dodge would be
eating the cost of further replacements.
> What I want isnt too much to ask, I want to walk in and drop off my
> car. Have them fix the damn limp mode issue and have it BE FIXED. The
> problem is its so damn incosistiently going into limp mode that no
> dealership is going to agree to this.
Why do you say that? The trans goes into limp mode because the
computer tells it to - and every time the computer puts it into limp mode
it sets a code.
You have them fix it and take the car away and bring it back a day
later claiming it went into limp mode - well they can scan it and see
what the problem is.
> They can change out 100 things
> and it may still go into limp a week later. Since none of the local
> dealerships is giving loaners I cant afford to have my car in the shop
> every other week while they figure out wth is wrong. Thats why I am
> moving to the shotgun approach. Yes its stupid to buy an engine when
> the only thing that needs to be changed is a leaky valve cover gasket,
> however, when you cant find the bloody leak and dont have the luxury
> of spare vehicles to drive while someone figures out your problem you
> may just have to go BAM.
>
> >I am sure you realize at this point that your transmission may have
> >been just fine to begin with! How much was that? $1800????
>
> Initally my transmission was fine, when I took it to Dodge. I replaced
> the sensors took it to work and it dropped into limp on the freeway.
> That evening when I went to leave work there was no 2nd gear left.
>
Richard, your transmission was NOT fine. A good solid transmission
won't shred itself going into limp mode on the freeway - I've had it happen
to me before and the trans didn't lose 2nd gear, so have a lot of people.
You already said you had a wrecking yard trans in that vehicle. It
was very likely near the end of it's lifespan.
> >I think that the dealer could spend 2 hours on this, so $180, and then
> >tell you what the F&ck is wrong. THEN, rather than replace a whole
> >bunch of parts and pray you got "the one", you could spend exactly
> >what you HAVE to spend and get the car fixed properly.
>
> Thats assuming in those 2 hours it goes into limp. Since the computer
> isnt returning any codes how are they to guess it? Seriously I'm not
> being a piss ass here.
>
IF IT GOES INTO LIMP MODE THE TCM WILL HAVE STORED
CODES, PERIOD!!!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt
> Ok so today here is what I have.
>
> Went for a drive to get gas, went into limp very soon after that. So I
> took it over to Advance Auto parts to see if their code scanner could
> have any better luck. It was able to read it.
NO IT WAS NOT ABLE TO READ IT!!!
Here is what it dumped.
>
> ENG: 24/P0123
> TPS Voltage High
>
> ENG: 33/-----
> A/C Clutch Relay CKT
>
> Not much help there, the 33 code according to the code list I have
> says it could also be the following;
>
> A/C pressure sensor volts too high
> A/C pressure sensor volts too lo
> Speed control switch always low
> Speed control switch always high
> Speed control solenoid circuits
> High speed condenser fan control relay circuit
> High fan and high fan ground control relay circuit
>
> So nothing for the transmission or why it went into limp
THAT IS BECAUSE THE ADVANCE AUTO SCANNER WAS NOT
READING TRANS CODES
Richard, I ALREADY TOLD YOU that there are TWO separate connectors in
your vehicle for a scanner to plug into. One is connected to the CCD bus
that
the TCM is connected to. The other is connected to the engine computer.
The
Advance Auto scanner was connected to the engine computer not to the CCD
bus so it cannot pull codes from the TCM.
I already told you that the only scanner that will pull trans codes is
something like
the OTC Monitor 4000 that was listed in my pictorial that you obviously
didn't
read, or a dealership scanner. The OTC does it because that scanner can
plug
into BOTH scan ports if the correct cable is used.
And I already told you that you will not find these scanners behind the
counter
of an auto parts store.
> because
> according to the tranny manual the TPS cant force the tranny into
> limp.
>
> I did notice today that the tranny is exhibiting two other odd
> symptoms. Sometimes when at a stop, it takes time for it to go into
> 1st gear and shift rather hard. Other times when coming to a stop it
> will downshift roughly at 28mph as I am stopping.
>
> I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
> wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
> Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
> special ordered.
>
Any wrecking yard that has one of these can provide one. Go visit a
u-pull-it
yard.
> So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
> Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
> $90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
> up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.
No, not if the problem is the sensors.
Ted
Richard Ahlquist
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Richard Ahlquist" <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote in message
>news:3fbh72hipjkcb035s...@4ax.com...
>> Ok so today here is what I have.
>>
>> Went for a drive to get gas, went into limp very soon after that. So I
>> took it over to Advance Auto parts to see if their code scanner could
>> have any better luck. It was able to read it.
>
>NO IT WAS NOT ABLE TO READ IT!!!
Where is this connector at? Since the car does have an ODB-II
connector I thought it would be the point to get into the CCD bus?
Richard Ahlquist
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Richard Ahlquist" <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote in message
>news:c0rh725bu4v8kkhrs...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 27 May 2006 15:38:25 -0700, NewMan
>> <cloaked...@NOSPAM.yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III
>> >trans fluid?
>> >
>> You are probably right, it wouldnt suprise me in the least hell I dont
>> even think thats my tranny in the car anymore. The one that was in
>> there when I took it to the shop had writing on top in that yellow
>> paint pen wrecking yards use and had a dar dirty bellhousing. This one
>> is shiny and clean. No I dont think they cleaned mine because at the
>> place where the writing was is a factory sticker of some sort that
>> looks like its been on there for years. In addition when they replaced
>> the #$@$@ solenoid pack they didnt put the sount suppressor back over
>> it so not the solenoids are much louder.
>
>The NEW selonoid packs do NOT come with a sound suppressor, they
>redesigned them so that wasn't needed.
>
>I already gave you a link here:
>
>http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/94tcpics/project.html
>
>which had a nice picture of a freshly rebuilt trans with a selonoid pack on
>it - did you see any sound suppressor? Did you even bother looking and
>reading through the God-damned site?
Actually I did read through your site and it was quite a good outline.
The Solenoid pack on the car now is MUCH louder.
>
>IF IT GOES INTO LIMP MODE THE TCM WILL HAVE STORED
>CODES, PERIOD!!!!!
We'll see its going to DC shop today. I will be out of town this week
so hoepfully they can get to it(they dont think so).
>
treeli...@yahoo.com
The following is from an Amazon listing.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JMDX6/102-5604235-0952104?v=glance&n=228013
Equus OBD II Code Reader, around $100
The 3100 Code Reader is designed to work on all OBD II compliant
vehicles. (NOTE: The 3100 OBD Code Reader is NOT compatible with
vehicles using the CAN protocol. Go to
http://iequus.com/assets/code_readers/CAN_vehicles.htm to view the list
of vehicles not compatible with the 3100). Most 1996 and newer vehicles
(cars and light trucks) sold in the U.S. are OBD II compliant. Some
1994 and 1995 vehicles are OBD II compliant.
To find out if a 1994 or 1995 vehicle is OBD II compliant, check the
following:
1. The Vehicle Emissions Control Information (VECI) Label. This label
is located under the hood or by the radiator of most vehicles. If the
vehicle is OBD II compliant, the label will state OBD II Certified.
2. Government Regulations require that all OBD II compliant vehicles
must have a common sixteen-pin Data Link Connector (DLC). NOTE: Some
1994 and 1995 vehicles have 16-pin connectors but are not OBD II
compliant, only the ones where the Vehicle Emissions Control Label
states that, they are OBD II Certified.
Tester provides information of:
1) Monitor Status / I/M Readiness.
2) MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) status.
3) Current Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs). 4) Alerts of any Pending
Codes. Manual provides Manufacturer Specific (P1) emissions code
definitions for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and Toyota. Auto-Monitoring
function periodically retrieves the latest code and I/M readiness
status from a vehicles computer. Includes 6-foot Data Link Connector
(DLC) cable and a detailed instruction manual in English, French and
Spanish with in-depth information on OBD II systems and codes. For more
information, additional codes and vehicle compatibility, please visit
codereader.com.
Just checking in with my potshot for the day. You're pretty sure that
your vehicle is OBD II compliant then? And you should be able to read
the scans of the TCM?
My vague memory is that pre-1996, don't know if this was cast in stone,
required a very special harness to read the codes from the
TCM/Transmission Control Module [tranny computer] according to a
TSB/Technical Service(s) Bulletin from Chrysler that I read. Or maybe
misread. I'm not a mechanic and have not read codes other than simple
engine codes. I don't know if third-party people made codereaders that
bypassed this cable jiggernaut. I also vaguely recall that the harness
was $5000. That seemed a bit steep so it must have been a very
complicated cable. Am I kind of on the money here or completely out of
my whatever? Any Chrysler tech care to correct any mistakes? Glenn?
Richard Ahlquist
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Just checking in with my potshot for the day. You're pretty sure that
>your vehicle is OBD II compliant then? And you should be able to read
>the scans of the TCM?
>
>My vague memory is that pre-1996, don't know if this was cast in stone,
>required a very special harness to read the codes from the
>TCM/Transmission Control Module [tranny computer] according to a
>TSB/Technical Service(s) Bulletin from Chrysler that I read. Or maybe
>misread. I'm not a mechanic and have not read codes other than simple
>engine codes. I don't know if third-party people made codereaders that
>bypassed this cable jiggernaut. I also vaguely recall that the harness
>was $5000. That seemed a bit steep so it must have been a very
>complicated cable. Am I kind of on the money here or completely out of
>my whatever? Any Chrysler tech care to correct any mistakes? Glenn?
The 95 stratus has an ODB II connector however I have been told that
it uses ODB I communication over this connection. Ted has told me that
there is another connection somewhere hoever I have yet to find it.
Regardless I dropped it off at a 5 star DC shop today. If they cant
figure out wth is going on with it then I will probably unload the car
somehow. It will be an expensive lesson for me in what NOT to buy.
treeli...@yahoo.com
I feel your pain, brother, on today, Memorial Day. But let us not grow
bitter and remember our comrades who have fallen before the Chrysler
Corporation with integrity, truthfulness, and vehicles that would not
cooperate.
Your comment reminded me of the last Chrysler vehicle I purchased. One
day it just would not start. No matter what I did, that Plymouth would
not start up. So I took it to a good local shop. A nice independent.
That car sat there for one solid year and no one could get it to start!
What happened in the end? The shop got sold to a chain and for all I
know my beloved Plymouth is buried in the great beyond, gathering dust
on its metal panels.
My current Plymouth I did not purchase. It was given to me by someone
who could not ethically sell such a problematic vehicle to another
person. So now I am developing intimate relationships with all kinds of
people trying to solve its problems. And there is always a problem.
I'll leave you with one thought. Maybe I should not but what the heck.
Some of my later Chrysler products were like beautiful women who have
"problems." I just could never afford a beauty who came without
problems.
Richard Ahlquist
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'll leave you with one thought. Maybe I should not but what the heck.
>Some of my later Chrysler products were like beautiful women who have
>"problems." I just could never afford a beauty who came without
>problems.
Amen! I wish I had my 1969 Chrysler 300 with 84K miles on its back. I
bought it when I was 21 years old and working at a self service auto
dismantler in California. I paid $293 for it. IT had been sitting for
nearly a decade as its owner was too old to drive it. I took it,
babied it, and put Holle 4bbl Pro-Jection on it. It set me back many
hours of work routing return fuel lines and wiring. Not to mention the
100amp alternator to handle the injection, the MSD 6AL ignition system
and the 600 Watt Kenwood stero system.
Oh it was a thing of beauty though, to pull along side of a punk kid
in a new convertible Mustang at a light, blaring his stereo and
hearing mine he would want to race off to show his woman that his car
was better than mine even though my stereo was louder. Woe is him when
I would burry it and walk away... Many a Mustan and Camaro's ego fell
to my 300. But perhaps the biggest trimumph was the fact that with an
open loop after market fuel injection system I could get 20MPG on the
freeway... Ahh those were the good ol days.....
Steve
On my 1999 Plymouth Grand Voyager, the OBD-II (ALDL) data port is the
only one used for engine, transmission & ABS communication. But you DO
need a scanner capable of reading Manufacturer ENHANCED codes. A generic
code reader won't do this for you. I just went out and read the codes on
mine to make sure it works like I'm telling you, and it does. I'm using
an OTC Monitor Elite, with a OTC System Smart Insert 25 pin Chryslers
Motors 2.0 chip, a Deuce '01 cartridge, and the standard OBD-II cable. I
would recommended a similar setup to anyone who's a serious
Do-it-yourselfer. I have about $350 invested in it from Ebay. If you
only need OBD-I capability, you can purchase a used OTC Monitor 4000E or
(or equivalent), with cartridge on Ebay for under $100. The Chrysler
A-604 Transmission and Chassis (CCD) Adapter needed to pull A-604 tranny
codes is also available on Ebay. I paid about $35 for mine.
Richard Ahlquist
DC 5 star dealer said that they pulled the codes and the only codes
were for the TPS. They replaced the TPS. They also said that the
computer needed a flash update and did that. Total cost $470 approx.
They performed the repairs, took the car for a drive and it went into
limp, NO CODES REPORTED.
So they say the problem must be that the tranny shop botched the
rebuild. They want $3300+ to replace the tranny. Keep in mind the car
cost $3800....
I called the tranny shop and they stood behind their rebuild. The told
me that Myself or A Dodges technician can come down and watch them
pull and disassemble the tranny to make sure that nothing is wrong.
WTF? Any bright ideas? I am currently on hold with DC 5 Star waiting
to tell them this.
treeli...@yahoo.com
A dim bulb went off deep inside me. I had one bright idea which was
flashing the trans computer which the dealer did. I assume there is ATF
+3 in the beast?
You know this sounds like the problem when a fuse keeps blowing because
of a surge that is not dangerous and could be disregarded. The
situation sounds quite bad with you caught in the middle. Can someone
disconnect the line or the whatever that put the transmission into limp
mode? If it's a spurious warning, what danger can result? And would the
danger be worse than what it is now, which is a vehicle that is quickly
becoming useless to you.
About the dealer, can they test the TPS which they took out? This is
the Throttle Position Sensor? It has to be testable. If it's okay, then
what accepts the TPS signals is not okay. If it's not malfunctioning,
they could put back the old one and refund your money. It's a wild shot
there. And do they have some kind of super Chrysler engineer expert on
call that you can discuss this with? If I recall, the vehicle was in
limp mode before. The Factory Shop Manual and/or the tranny Superbook
might have how to test the TPS in regards to the tranny.
I also do not understand the $3300 to replace the tranny since the last
time I asked Chrysler, the cost was for me, $1800 for a remanufactured
one. They want $1500 labor to put in a transmission? I don't think they
want to really help you out. Maybe you need to swallow your pride and
whine and plead and scream like a very frustrated customer. Make up a
sign. The Chrysler Dealer Ripped Me Off and picket and picket. Okay,
that's a little extreme, but jumping up and down might work. When
various dealers ripped me off, slinking off embarrassed and defeated
did not do anything except get me out of there for the next victim.
They must have spare computers and harnesses they could use to check
out yours. Either your tranny is giving spurious signals which cannot
be detected or your computers are not reading the signals properly or
the cable has a crimp in it.
Fortunately I know so little that I cannot keep quite quiet :)
If the shop screwed up, then what did the shop screw up? Put it in
writing or fix the beast. This is like the old hardware software
run-around in computers. Not my problem, it's the hardware. No, that's
not my problem, it's a software bug. Whatever it is, you are not
getting any specific information.
Make sure the next mechanic who works on your car has gray hair and is
going to retire in a few years. This is not a problem for anyone less
than 55 years of age. You need a very experienced and thoughtful MASTER
mechanic.
Richard Ahlquist
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>A dim bulb went off deep inside me. I had one bright idea which was
>flashing the trans computer which the dealer did. I assume there is ATF
>+3 in the beast?
It should be ATF +3 but hopefully the dealer and the trans shop work
that out tomorrow.
>You know this sounds like the problem when a fuse keeps blowing because
>of a surge that is not dangerous and could be disregarded. The
>situation sounds quite bad with you caught in the middle. Can someone
>disconnect the line or the whatever that put the transmission into limp
>mode? If it's a spurious warning, what danger can result? And would the
>danger be worse than what it is now, which is a vehicle that is quickly
>becoming useless to you.
If the solenoid or speed sensors dropped off line it should gen a code
I'd think.
>About the dealer, can they test the TPS which they took out? This is
>the Throttle Position Sensor? It has to be testable. If it's okay, then
>what accepts the TPS signals is not okay. If it's not malfunctioning,
>they could put back the old one and refund your money. It's a wild shot
>there. And do they have some kind of super Chrysler engineer expert on
>call that you can discuss this with? If I recall, the vehicle was in
>limp mode before. The Factory Shop Manual and/or the tranny Superbook
>might have how to test the TPS in regards to the tranny.
I could ask them about testing the TPS but since both computers
supposedly were fussing about it I would bet its bad. I never found my
analog VOM to test it before I took it in. According to the ATSG
manual for this trans the TPS failing can not put it into limp but who
knows who is right at this point.
>I also do not understand the $3300 to replace the tranny since the last
>time I asked Chrysler, the cost was for me, $1800 for a remanufactured
>one. They want $1500 labor to put in a transmission? I don't think they
>want to really help you out. Maybe you need to swallow your pride and
>whine and plead and scream like a very frustrated customer. Make up a
>sign. The Chrysler Dealer Ripped Me Off and picket and picket. Okay,
>that's a little extreme, but jumping up and down might work. When
>various dealers ripped me off, slinking off embarrassed and defeated
>did not do anything except get me out of there for the next victim.
Dont ask me on the pricing the previous DC dealer before the tran
shop told me 2800, 2200 for the trans and the rest labor.
>They must have spare computers and harnesses they could use to check
>out yours. Either your tranny is giving spurious signals which cannot
>be detected or your computers are not reading the signals properly or
>the cable has a crimp in it.
I called their parts dept last week to price the harness and they
didnt have one in stock. I dont know about the computer but you would
think they should want to try it.
>Fortunately I know so little that I cannot keep quite quiet :)
>
>If the shop screwed up, then what did the shop screw up? Put it in
>writing or fix the beast. This is like the old hardware software
>run-around in computers. Not my problem, it's the hardware. No, that's
>not my problem, it's a software bug. Whatever it is, you are not
>getting any specific information.
I asked the DC dealer this. Their answer was "I dont know what they
might of made a mistake on but thats what our trans tech thinks it is"
I said well can you put that in writing for me? So I can contest the
rebuild with the other shop. Their answer was "since we havent opened
the trans and our tech isnt really willing to (their tech doesnt want
to open the trans and doesnt want to rebuild it because he doesnt know
what the trans shop may have done to it) we cant put that in writing"
>Make sure the next mechanic who works on your car has gray hair and is
>going to retire in a few years. This is not a problem for anyone less
>than 55 years of age. You need a very experienced and thoughtful MASTER
>mechanic.
Thats part of the problem I think,. some of the ones you describe are
set in their ways. I wish to go I could find one mechanic with the
scruples to want to troubleshoot the problem till its 100% fixed. To
have the balls to say I tried this and it didnt fix it so I'm not
charging you because it was my lack of knowledge that meant I had to
try to fix it willy nilly. Such a creature doesnt seem to exist near
me.
treeli...@yahoo.com
> Dont ask me on the pricing the previous DC dealer before the tran
> shop told me 2800, 2200 for the trans and the rest labor.
This would make 600 for labor? 2800 - 2200 = 600.
But the other dealer now wants 1500 for labor or 2.5 x 600?
Two and half times what the previous quote was?
That strikes me as slightly curious, yes?
> I asked the DC dealer this. Their answer was "I dont know what they
> might of made a mistake on but thats what our trans tech thinks it is"
> I said well can you put that in writing for me? So I can contest the
> rebuild with the other shop. Their answer was "since we havent opened
> the trans and our tech isnt really willing to (their tech doesnt want
> to open the trans and doesnt want to rebuild it because he doesnt know
> what the trans shop may have done to it) we cant put that in writing"
What is a trans tech? Is he certified by DaimlerChrysler? I have not
heard of that but I do not know. Is he Gold Certified Chrysler trained?
On what basis other than the ubiquitous of Cover Your Ass by blaming
the other guy?
Let me suggest what I have done in dilemmas like this:
1. Allpar.com is a good place to ask. Rather tech type people are
there. Their answers are sometimes quite detailed. Sometimes wrong. But
that is where I learned about flashing the TCM and my 37 mph
self-destruct shudder. Or so I think. Damn, I'll have to look in my
notes. That's a qualified probability :)
2. To find a master mechanic with white hair who is not set in his ways
and researches, you might want to do what I did:
a. Although universally reviled in this newsgroup, the Click and Clack
Tappet Brothers at www.cartalk.com have a mechanics locator with
reviews on their web site. I called up about six shops that were
listed. I went to two shops and they were very pleasant and very open.
One was a master mechanic. I went to see him. Very professional. Used a
dental mirror to look inside things. He seemed like a master mechanic.
And I have never seen so many diplomas on a wall. This gent had over 20
auotmobile certifications and I kid you not. And he was very kind and
gentlemanly, quite unlike most monosyllabic mechanics who just don't
like to chit and chat.
b. Float an email to the Tappet brothers. Shhhh, don't tell anyone I
told you this.
Homer Simpson
You can smell the difference between ATF+3 and Dexron/Mercon.
As for the harness.. I dont think it is just something that can
replaced on a whim.. It is integrated into the rest of the harness in
the van.
If you can get your hands on a wiring diagram or a pinout of the
tranny harnesses, you could test the harness to see if there is any
problems.... I have the 1994 FSM for my Caravan. If need be, I can
scan the pinouts of the tranny controller harness and solenoid pack
harness so you can try to check some of the wiring.....
I could prolly do a complete copy of the wiring diagrams, but it would
take some time... (about 120 pagess)
On 30 May 2006 20:41:03 -0700, "treeli...@yahoo.com"
Bill Putney
> ...If you can get your hands on a wiring diagram or a pinout of the
> tranny harnesses, you could test the harness to see if there is any
> problems.... I have the 1994 FSM for my Caravan. If need be, I can
> scan the pinouts of the tranny controller harness and solenoid pack
> harness so you can try to check some of the wiring.....
>
> I could prolly do a complete copy of the wiring diagrams, but it would
> take some time... (about 120 pagess)
For $25 he could get an on-line alldata subscription and have access to
all schematics for the one vehilce. To me, for the time involved, I'd
rather pay his $25 than manually scan 120 pages.
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Richard Ahlquist
>Richard Ahlquist wrote:
>> Dont ask me on the pricing the previous DC dealer before the tran
>> shop told me 2800, 2200 for the trans and the rest labor.
>
>This would make 600 for labor? 2800 - 2200 = 600.
>
>But the other dealer now wants 1500 for labor or 2.5 x 600?
>Two and half times what the previous quote was?
>That strikes me as slightly curious, yes?
Me too but thats what they said. Dunno why the difference and dont
much care at this point as I'm not getting the trans replaced.
>> I asked the DC dealer this. Their answer was "I dont know what they
>> might of made a mistake on but thats what our trans tech thinks it is"
>> I said well can you put that in writing for me? So I can contest the
>> rebuild with the other shop. Their answer was "since we havent opened
>> the trans and our tech isnt really willing to (their tech doesnt want
>> to open the trans and doesnt want to rebuild it because he doesnt know
>> what the trans shop may have done to it) we cant put that in writing"
>
>What is a trans tech? Is he certified by DaimlerChrysler? I have not
>heard of that but I do not know. Is he Gold Certified Chrysler trained?
>On what basis other than the ubiquitous of Cover Your Ass by blaming
>the other guy?
His in shop transmission technician, or trans tech as the dealer
service manager likes to refer to him as. He is supposed to be a
certirfied master technician...
>Let me suggest what I have done in dilemmas like this:
>
>1. Allpar.com is a good place to ask. Rather tech type people are
>there. Their answers are sometimes quite detailed. Sometimes wrong. But
>that is where I learned about flashing the TCM and my 37 mph
>self-destruct shudder. Or so I think. Damn, I'll have to look in my
>notes. That's a qualified probability :)
There is nearly a complete echo of my conversation here up there. No
answers forthcoming there either.
>2. To find a master mechanic with white hair who is not set in his ways
>and researches, you might want to do what I did:
>
>a. Although universally reviled in this newsgroup, the Click and Clack
>Tappet Brothers at www.cartalk.com have a mechanics locator with
>reviews on their web site. I called up about six shops that were
>listed. I went to two shops and they were very pleasant and very open.
>One was a master mechanic. I went to see him. Very professional. Used a
>dental mirror to look inside things. He seemed like a master mechanic.
>And I have never seen so many diplomas on a wall. This gent had over 20
>auotmobile certifications and I kid you not. And he was very kind and
>gentlemanly, quite unlike most monosyllabic mechanics who just don't
>like to chit and chat.
>
>b. Float an email to the Tappet brothers. Shhhh, don't tell anyone I
>told you this.
Ok I may do this...
Richard Ahlquist
<tra...@pcsites.com> wrote:
Latest update.
Dodge never had their tech call the trans shop, didnt figure they
would. The DC service manager did call the trans shop and tried to get
the trans shop to pay DC to put in a new factory rebuilt transmission.
Since the trans shop stands behind their product they refused the
rediculous price.
The trans shop called me and told me what they want to do.
They are purchasing another transmission, rebuilding it and when its
ready they will call me and do a one day swap on it. After that if it
goes into limp then I get to take it back to DC and they will start
charging me $85/hour to diagnose the problem again..
WHAT THE #@$@#.
So today I go pay $502 to pick up the damn car with its new TPS and
flash upgrade.
So this will be the trans shops 3rd rebuild. I have to say they are
sersiously standing by their warranty on this even to the point of
justt rying to prove to DC that there is nothing wrong with their
rebuild.
So we are back to the point of if I get it back and it limps again
what would any of yall do if it were your car? Would you take it back
to DC who has proven they cant troublshoot the damn issue? I mean hell
their philosophy seems to be if tis broke and the computer doesnt
throw a code to tell them why, then replace the whole trans, remind me
not to go there with a spark plug misfiring.
Hennie
"Richard Ahlquist" <tra...@pcsites.com> schreef in bericht
news:rm3182lhvcokq9bh1...@4ax.com...
Sorry I did not read your hole story but I had the same problem with my
Dodge Stratus (in Holland Chrysler Stratus) It goes in Limp in mode when it
was very warm outside. I did not get any faultcodes. At last I bought a
secondhand TCM at the junkyard for 50 Euro's and the problem was gone!
Succes Hennie.
NewMan
problems related to the tranmission! Why the hell can't the trans shop
look at the cable harnesses?
And yeah, at this point I would try to get a TCM from a junk yard.
What have you got to lose?
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:30:17 -0400, Richard Ahlquist
Homer Simpson
has the latest flash on it I would let you borrow to check and see if
that fixes the problem.
Is that pcsites address a valid address? If so, I am going to scan and
send you a copy of the TCM pinout and the tranny harness pinout. They
will be in Adobe PDF format.
ralfa604
helt klart är det fel inne i lådan..sitter en kona som är
fjäderbelastad med gummitätning som gått åt helsike ..ta ned lådan
själv..och öppna den..är skitlätt!! vill du ha steg för steg
hjälp så hör av dig på detta forum
Richard Ahlquist
wrote:
>It's too bad your not close to me here in FL. I have a spare TCM that
>has the latest flash on it I would let you borrow to check and see if
>that fixes the problem.
>
>Is that pcsites address a valid address? If so, I am going to scan and
>send you a copy of the TCM pinout and the tranny harness pinout. They
> will be in Adobe PDF format.
>
>
Yes the address is valid. I own the domain so I setup this temporary
address so I could post with a valid email addy to the newsgroups.
Well if the DC dealer can be believed my current TCM is flashed up to
latest now. Since I got the car back from them it has tried to go into
limp on me but only when I put it in drive and when its in overdrive.
If I drive th car in 3rd on the gearshift indicator it will not go
into limp.
Waiting on the trans shop now to finish prepping a new tranny as soon
as its ready they get the car for a day.
Phil T
I doubt that another transmission will fix this. The whole thing smells
like a control problem, just like the one I had. I'll say it again -
it's either in the wiring harness connectors, or in one of the control
modules. You might change the TCM or whatever and find the problem
gone. While it could have been the module, it also could be the
connectors on the module. Sometimes the very act of removing the
connector and then re-installing it will make a problem disappear (which
tells you where the problem is).
In the line of work I'm in , we see it frequently enough : a $500K UPS
stops working properly because of one bad crimp on one pin in one
connector on a ribbon cable (and there nearly 20 ribbon cables).
Phil
Homer Simpson
that is safe for plastics. Disconnect the TCM (I believe it is an 8mm
socket) harness. Pull the harness off, and spray the harness down to
remove any debris. Take a few minutes to let the harness dry, and
inspect the connections. If possible, remove the cover that covers the
back of the harness, and look for a possible pinched or broken wire.
I will try to get a copy of those two pages for you ASAP. I am waiting
for a part to fix my server so I can print and scan again.
Homer Simpson
TCM and Solenoid pinous....
Richard Ahlquist
while i was laid up with surgery. It had been perfoming 100% normal in
3 but if i put it in D it would go into limp. The trans shop worked on
it and when I went to pick it up (free of charge as its under
warranty) they smiled and said drive it a few weeks and let us know
how it goes and we will tell you what we did. Well I drove it for 3
weeks and no problems and no limp! I was amazed so I called back and
they told me that all they had done was unhook the computer and spray
a ton of contact cleaner on the cable contacts. I was floored but
happy, until yesterday, it went into limp again. So now I'm trying to
decide what to do next. I may order the harness from Dodge or I may
try some contact enhancer like DeOxIt Gold or
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=ECH&PartNumber=CE1&Description=Contact+Enhancer+Fluid
which gets great reccomendations.
ron
Hate to jump in so late, but did you try changing the "saftey shut down
relay" AKA the "EATX relay"?
Worn or corroded contacts on this relay will cause intermittent limp in
as was told to me by a Dodge service tech when I had the same problem
you have. He said that's the first thing he would change in a "Mystery
Scenario" and there's a fair chance it would fix the problem. They cost
about 20 bucks.
treeli...@yahoo.com
Aha, so that's the stuff. When I wrote my last post above I mentioned
something that cost $22. Well, that stuff from Napa is Stabilant 22A,
so I probably confused the 22 with the numbers in the title for the
cost. About the cost, it's now $72.
20 years ago, when I ran across this stuff, it was around $25. Must be
good stuff to last all these years, that's a lot of years and no name
change. According to the web site, www.stabilant.com, it was product of
the year in Jerry Pournelle's column for Byte magazine, in 1985.
I guess the price was too high. I do use isopropyl alcohol a lot and
Stabilant 22A is 80% alcohol and 20% their special chemical. It's
spelled out in their MSDS sheet.
Did the tranny shop say what specifically they used to clean the
contact cleaners? The above expensive stuff or Radio Shack or what?
Did they try what the next post suggested?
What do you think? A marginal connection or component or resistor that
meets specs when you lower the connectivity resistance. Have you tried
the suggestion from the next post about the safety limp mode system?
shaq...@aol.com
works so much better.
Plus there are many convenient applicators to use. Many of the auto
companies spec it in - as the ONLY thing to use.
Good enough for me. I don't use anything else. Another plus - cost
much less than Stabilant.
www.caig.com
Mike
Richard Ahlquist
the car.
In October the shop rebuilt the transmission for the 4th time and then
they put their foot down and told me they wanted to find the problem
and didnt want to release the car to me till they did so. After a few
days they called and said it needed a new TCU so I went and picked the
core up from them and took it to Dodge and obtained a replacement.
After the trans shop installed the new TCU the car was fine until
yesterday.
Yesterday I am on my way home on the freeway and the speedometer
starts dropping speed and then jumping back up while I was maintaining
a constant speed. When I took my normal offramp to come home it
dropped into limp and stayed there despite shutting the car off and
trying to drive it and also trying to drive it in 3rd which had worked
prior to the last in shop repair.
So I took a guess that the output speed sensor had crapped out and got
a new Bosch unit and put it in, no change. When you drive it the
speedometer needle is all over the map and it stays in limp.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Steve
Did you pull the trouble codes from the TCM? That's the first thing you do
when troubleshooting an A-604. Could even be a bad wire.
Ted Mittelstaedt
Did Dodge keep the core of the TCU? Maybe you can swap it back in
as a test?
Sounds like a bad electrical connector somewhere to me. Take apart all the
connectors
and if there's water in any of them then spray WD40 in them. Go to Lowes
and
they sella bottle of electrical conductive grease, put a tiny dab of this on
each contact
and reassemble the connectors. Do this with every electrical contact on the
transmission and harness to the TCU.
On this transmission the fluid lines are above the sensors and fluid leaks
will
come down right on the sensors, and soften the rubber that holds the
contacts.
The contact design itself in the sensor also sucks rocks.
Also make sure your body grounds are good, the TCU is grounded, etc.
Ted
Bob Shuman
I've never used Bosch sensors since I had trouble with Bosch plugs once so
stay away from their components unless there is no other alternative. You
say the trans has been rebuilt 4 times, but did it actually require this
action each time or is this just showing the limitations of the shop you
have chosen?
Some suggestions to consider:
Weak/dying battery, resistive electrical connections, bad/poor ground to
TCU, bad connector at the output speed sensor, defective wiring to the
sensor, etc.
Good luck.
Bob
"Richard Ahlquist" <tra...@pcsites.com> wrote in message
news:oa3dp2p4n2pb69i61...@4ax.com...
Richard Ahlquist
>
> Did you pull the trouble codes from the TCM? That's the first thing you do
> when troubleshooting an A-604. Could even be a bad wire.
The codes have been worthless in the past always pointing to a bad speed
sensor and there were both replaced several times and their harness gone
over. That said I would normally have gotten the codes pulled in short
order but the car crudded out on me on friday on the way home from work
and I never had a chance to get it to the shop before they closed for the
weekend.
Richard Ahlquist
>
> Did Dodge keep the core of the TCU? Maybe you can swap it back in
> as a test?
Yep, was something like a $85 core charge besides the chip directly under
the inspection plug on the cover was cooked as was all the potting
material over the chip.
> Sounds like a bad electrical connector somewhere to me. Take apart all the
> connectors
> and if there's water in any of them then spray WD40 in them. Go to Lowes
> and
> they sella bottle of electrical conductive grease, put a tiny dab of this on
> each contact
> and reassemble the connectors. Do this with every electrical contact on the
> transmission and harness to the TCU.
I may try this again, its been done numerous times, the last time I used
DeOxIt and their gold contact enhancer. Didnt help at all.
>
> On this transmission the fluid lines are above the sensors and fluid leaks
> will
> come down right on the sensors, and soften the rubber that holds the
> contacts.
> The contact design itself in the sensor also sucks rocks.
>
> Also make sure your body grounds are good, the TCU is grounded, etc.
Thanks Ted, this transmission is an example of how not to design a
transmission from the cruddy sensors, to the sheer number of TSB's to the
very sub par electronics...
Grounds are good, and there is a ground directly from the bellhousing
directly to the "Jump Start" negative terminal.
Richard Ahlquist
> I agree with your diagnosis of the output speed sensor this time around.
> I've never used Bosch sensors since I had trouble with Bosch plugs once so
> stay away from their components unless there is no other alternative. You
> say the trans has been rebuilt 4 times, but did it actually require this
> action each time or is this just showing the limitations of the shop you
> have chosen?
Not sure if its their limitation or just the fact that the bloody thing is
so intermittent when it fails and the computer diag is worthless well....
I dunno the shop has tried I will give them that.
> Some suggestions to consider:
>
> Weak/dying battery, resistive electrical connections, bad/poor ground to
> TCU, bad connector at the output speed sensor, defective wiring to the
> sensor, etc.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Bob
All I can think is a wiring gremlin, but Dodge wasnt ever able to find it
either. All said and done this transmission failure has cost me more than
the car did. I filed a NHTSA report on this last night. Here is the body
of it.
Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is: 10177406
Complaint Information
Description : Purchased vehicle with clean CARFAX record in Feb 06
with 75k Miles. At 81K miles transmission started going into limp
mode(slams into second gear regardless of vehicle speed). Took car to
dealership for diagnostic. They stated the input and output speed
sensors were failing according to the computer. I replaced them. A week
later the transmission fully failed. Towed to a reputable transmission
chain store. They fully rebuilt the mechanicals of transmission and
replaced the speed sensors again. As I drove home the transmission
returned to limp mode. Returned to shop. They test drove it and second
gear clutches burned up. They rebuilt it again and also replaced valve
body and solenoid pack. I drove the car for a month before it again
started limping. Took the car to another dealership for diagnosis. They
blamed the shop and stated they couldn't do anything for me but upgrade
the flash in the transmission computer. The computer diagnostics could
not reveal why the computer was putting the car in limp. Returned car to
previous transmission shop for yet another rebuild. Drove car 2 months
before it again started limping. Returned car to trans shop, they
rebuilt it again. Still couldn't find concrete cause, replaced valve
body again, had me buy replacement transmission computer from Dodge,
this fixed it for another 2 months. yesterday it again started going
into limp. There is 200 miles remaining in the 12,000 mile rebuild
warranty from the first rebuild so it will be in the shop for the 5th
time in less than a year.
Ted Mittelstaedt
If the computer keeps throwing a code for the speed sensors you are going to
have to put a oscilloscope on the speed sensor output and check it to see
that your getting a solid signal. Then run the vehicle on the highway for
an hour and come back to the garage and let it idle for 20-30 minutes to
get it really good and hot, and then recheck both input and output speed
sensors output with the scope.
Ted
Bill Putney
An oscilloscope!!What's that!!??
More horse and buggy thinking. :)
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:4vskd1F...@mid.individual.net...
I think it's function F9 on the $5K chrysler scanner but since few of the
techs know how to use one anymore, I couldn't tell you. ;-)
> More horse and buggy thinking. :)
>
Sigh. I know. Just too hard for me to give up methods that work, you know.
;-)
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
Heh,
It's not just the design, it's the implementation. For example, take the
input speed sensors. The original ones were brass. Later the vendor that
made then switched to plastic. Lots more sensor failure complaints then.
The theory is the plastic does not conduct heat into the body of the
transmission
as readily, so the chip inside the sensor fails due to overheating.
Ted