LA 318 cooling prob has me fretting
OldieChrysler
air (or exhaust gas) into the cooling system, causing odd overheating
symptoms. Off came the whole top end, with judicious inspection of
the heads as well as deck and head surface flatness. All looked well,
and the valves were in pristine shape. After complete cleanup, new
Fel-Pro gasket set (along with the "one size fits all LAs" head gasket
that robs you of 5 lbs of compression!), figuring it was a pinhole
leak in one of the head gaskets. Back together, with the freshly
kitted carb, new RN12YCs, new wires/cap/rotor, new O2 sensor and
meticulous reassembly, the old LA ran SO smoothly and quietly it was
eerie. However, here comes the bubbles...again! Prior to the top end
job, I had fed 125 lb. air to each cylinder, and never did get
positive sighting of bubbles in the top tank of the radiator. But, a
firing cylinder under load, even in a low compression engine like
this, produces a lot more than 125 lbs. on the cylinder walls.
I can only think of two possibilities...lip seal in the water pump is
sucking in air, or...there's a pinhole in one of the cylinder walls
that's allowing exhaust gas to pass, but not water to pass the other
way. While glaze busting the cylinders, there WAS an odd little rust
spot in #5 that I attributed to water getting in there during head
removal (don't you LOVE they way they hid those drain plugs behind the
new style motor mounts????), but it went away with a single pass of
the hone, and nothing looked unusual. However, this engine, while in
great condition overall (.0002-3 taper in all cyls...barely a ring
mark to be seen) the original owner (the know-it-all father-in-law)
didn't seem to believe that you needed to change antifreeze regularly.
Thus, the jackets were FULL of rust flakes, necessitating me taking a
pressure washer nozzle down into the block to clean it up. After the
pressure washer treatment, the walls of the water jackets were grey
iron with ocassional dark rust spots here and there. However, if by
doing this, I knocked all the rust loose, the problem should've gotten
worse, and it didn't. Actually, it improved...slightly...but it is
still there.
Prior to this, this engine would NEVER get more than 5° above
thermostat in any condition except pulling a grade when 110° out with
the AC on. Now, it gets up to 210° just putting around town at 45
MPH.
Anyone heard of any bad block castings on this vintage LA engine?
Also, anyone had a water pump do exactly what this may be doing? No
bearing noise, and the weep hole is clean, but it's a two year old
"rebuild" (the original blew the seal right out the nose on a trip to
Vegas on the hottest day of the year).
The car, an '86 M-body 5th, is a cream puff, and I've grown to love
it, even with its various faults. Strengths: comfy "rich Corinthean
leather" seating all around; low noise level; excellent handling;
excellent AC; straightforward, honest design, no engineering
"gotchas," and it has Lee Iacocca in the trunk under the spare cover.
(Ricardo Montalban is a no-show.) Weaknesses: Choppy ride at times;
A-904 TF's lockup converter locks up at 36 MPH in 3rd gear...no matter
WHAT the load...no part throttle unlock...have to downshift to second
to knock it off; the usual headliner replacement (normal in any car
this old); jiggly front sheet metal on rough roads; rather ungainly
styling; and the standard MoPar feature...HARD to work on in places,
something I think that's been a MoPar standard since the '60s. You
need every wiggle and U-joint extension you may have in your
rollaround, but if you're smart, everything comes apart fine.
Hate to trash this car for a porous cylinder wall. My wife loves it,
too (it was her mom's when new) and it hasn't even hit 100K yet, and
the paint and interior are still quite nice and draw compliments
wherever we go.
Any opinions?
Caveat: If you have an old engine with low mileage where the original
owner ran long oil change intervals with mediocre oil, and you see
crusty sludge on the rockers (or wherever,) do yourself a
favor....strip the top end, clean it out BEFORE switching to
synthetic. I didn't, thinking the syn would sort of erode the
carbonized oil and slowly send it to the filter. I got away with it,
but after my clean up after dear Dad-In-Law, I'd never chance it
again. The amount of crap loosened up and laying in the pan was a bit
scary. Oddly enough, the pickup screen was clean, but every oil
change, that filter (Fram Double Guard) was HEAVY. I changed out the
oil pump just to feel safe, and later disassembly of the original
proved me right...there was a LOT of abrasive wear in it.
damnnickname
coolant before repairs? And did you get the intake manifold gaskets on
properly??? they will go on backwards and the only problem you will get is
an overheat condition if you close off the coolant passage from the head to
the intake.
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech
sqdancerLynn
that much rust have you checked the radiator flow, Maybe the fan clutch.
Did you have the heads maged or the valves done ??? I have some LA intake
gaskets in my hand don't see any difference in the water passages Take it
to the local radiator shop & have them do a block check. or if you have a
friendly smog man he could check for exhaust gases with his analizer
kmat...@sisna.com
Did you check the timing case? I had a 273. After 200,000 miles, some
pin holes developed in the casting right behind where the water pump
impeller sits. I didn't notice any bubbles, but coolant was getting
into the oil.
-KM
Bill Putney
> ...Caveat: If you have an old engine with low mileage where the original
> owner ran long oil change intervals with mediocre oil, and you see
> crusty sludge on the rockers (or wherever,) do yourself a
> favor....strip the top end, clean it out BEFORE switching to
> synthetic. I didn't, thinking the syn would sort of erode the
> carbonized oil and slowly send it to the filter. I got away with it,
> but after my clean up after dear Dad-In-Law, I'd never chance it
> again. The amount of crap loosened up and laying in the pan was a bit
> scary. Oddly enough, the pickup screen was clean, but every oil
> change, that filter (Fram Double Guard) was HEAVY. I changed out the
> oil pump just to feel safe, and later disassembly of the original
> proved me right...there was a LOT of abrasive wear in it.
There are those here who will adamantly disagree about synthetic
dissolving and breaking loose deposits, but I agree with you that it
definitely does and that those that suddenly switched over without a
problem were just lucky.
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
DeserTBoB
<damnni...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>To much for me to read ths early. Just curious..was the vehicle loosen
>coolant before repairs? <snip>
No, but gas bubbles would be escaping into the reserve tank after
shutdown.
> And did you get the intake manifold gaskets on
>properly??? <snip>
Of course. The problem existed BEFORE the teardown.
>they will go on backwards and the only problem you will get is
>an overheat condition if you close off the coolant passage from the head to
>the intake. <snip>
Only an idiot would install LA intake gaskets backward. I'm not one
of those.
DeserTBoB
<sqdanc...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Since it was doing it before teardown I would look at the radiator. With
>that much rust have you checked the radiator flow <snip>
Backflushed core, got some particulate rust out, now flows fine,
minimal deposits.
>Maybe the fan clutch. <snip>
Negative...works as new.
>Did you have the heads maged or the valves done ??? <snip>
I personally magnefluxed those heads...no cracks anywhere. To
confirm, I took them to the local grinder shop and had them Zyglow
them....same thing, no cracks.
>I have some LA intake
>gaskets in my hand don't see any difference in the water passages <snip>
One this particular application, both sides are the same. However on
many earlier LAs (and As) the BACK water passage is active and has a
metering hole. If the numbnuts installed the gaskets backward, there
will be no flow to the thermostat.
>Take it
>to the local radiator shop & have them do a block check. or if you have a
>friendly smog man he could check for exhaust gases with his analizer <snip>
Checking for exhaust gases today with a NAPA tester I just picked up.
I'm fearful that there are these, because after running a couple of
days, the water/inhibitor takes on a "rainbow sheen" when exposed to
light. However, I've been told that also could be water pump bearing
grease being sucked into the system from the bearing, presaging a pump
failure. I'm putting a new Cardone pump on after checking for exhaust
gas presence. If there ARE exhaust gases, I'm afriad the block
porosity problem is real.
OldeChrysler
<desert...@rglobalSPAM.net> wrote:
>1986 LA roller cam 318 in an M-body <snip>
Update: Exhaust gas presence negative. Water pump goes on as soon as
it gets here, stay tuned.
Meanwhile, three wrenches I know have warned me about shops using
"cheapie" rebuilt pumps from schlock vendors like Poop Boys or Auto
Bone, and they ALWAYS have seal and/or bearing failure within two
years.
Looks like this might be the case, since the car had a "rebuilt" pump
installed when on a trip to Vegas. The original blew the lip seal
right out the nose on that one.
kmat...@sisna.com
When you remove the pump, inspect the condition of the pump housing in
timing case. Please see my earlier post.
-KM
OldeChrysler
<kmat...@sisna.com> wrote:
>When you remove the pump, inspect the condition of the pump housing in
>timing case. Please see my earlier post. <snip>
Will do. I've been told it could be possible that the front cover
suffered corrosion damage due to poor cooling system maintenance early
in its life, and if the perforation is near the center of the hub,
crankcase blowby could be getting sucked into the water stream.
However, one would think that if this were so, the hole would be big
enough to leak water into the pan, and I'm not seeing that.
More later, and thanks.
philthy
cooling systems so it can be charged with coolant and eliminate air in system
i have on occasion used mine to find a leak in the radiator that shows up under
a vac condition and not pressure and can allow air into radiator and the cooling
system under cool down cycles.
mighty vac makes one and so does airlift .as well as bluepoint and mactools
there is also a chemical check kit that can be had from the better parts stores
that can tell you if there is coolant in oil and oil in coolant and if head
gaskets are indeed leaking.come to think of it my mac guy keeps the kits on his
truck now
you should have had the heads checked for cracks since they were off
does the pump impellar spin in the correct direction ?i have seen a few put on
backwards
OldeChrysler
wrote:
>there is a tool that uses air power to pull a vacuum to purge air from a
>cooling systems so it can be charged with coolant and eliminate air in system <snip>
Already did that. When I pull a 15" Hg vacuum on the cooling system
(tested today) I get air incoming. I just used a standard
refrigeration vacuum pump and an isolation vessel to keep water out of
the pump intake. Worked like a charm. I had to change the oil in the
pump anyway, so I gave it a go, and it works better than a MiteyVac or
any hand held device like that.
>i have on occasion used mine to find a leak in the radiator that shows up under
>a vac condition and not pressure and can allow air into radiator and the cooling
>system under cool down cycles. <snip>
That's what this is doing. Negative for water/inhibitor in oil, but
I'm seeing a VERY slight "rainbow sheen" in the water/inhibitor that's
not normal, and usually is either grease or oil. I'm thinking a
micro-sized pore in the front cover is allowing crankcase gas to get
sucked through, but it's not big enough to pass water directly into
the timing chain area. I'm still stuck, though, on the idea that the
lip seal in the water pump isn't holding against a partial vacuum.
Since a new pump is on the way, I'm not going to repeat the vacuum
test and spritz heavy oil into the nose of the pump, but that'd prove
it.
Odd, in that I took the car out today, the partial heating up started,
and then BOOM...went back to 195° and stayed there! It never heated
up again on the rest of the trip, and I had the AC on as well. A 318
in these cars never gets more than a few degrees above thermostat
temperature in normal conditions, and I've never seen it get above
around 205° on the road, ever, even in hot summer desert trips. A
195° 'stat isn't even fully open until 215°.
>there is also a chemical check kit that can be had from the better parts stores
>that can tell you if there is coolant in oil and oil in coolant and if head
>gaskets are indeed leaking <snip>
Got a NAPA combustion gas test kit. Negative for combustion gases in
the water.
>you should have had the heads checked for cracks since they were off <snip>
I Magnafluxed them myself in all the usual suspect places, with
negative results. Not trusting my old Magnefluxing ability, I had
them Zyglo'd at the local grinder shop...negative also. I also pulled
the valves while cleaning up the heads and looked above the exhaust
seats...nothing. No sign of incursion of antifreeze or rust anywhere
on them, and all 16 valves looked pristine. Those induction hardened
exhaust valves on Chryslers are TOUGH! Same goes for the chrome
plated stems. I've done a lot of various engines, and never seen one
with 85K with so little guide taper. Makes GM stuff look like the
junk that it really is.
>does the pump impellar spin in the correct direction ?i have seen a few put on
>backwards <snip>
The factory pump failed on a 113° day after shutting the engine off in
the desert on the way to Vegas...blew the lip seal right out the nose
of the casting. After a flatback ride to Vegas, a Sinclair station
installed a "rebuilt" pump, and it functioned perfectly for almost two
years, then this cropped up.
I'm also suspecting the front cover, because "Mr. Know-It-All" father
in law is notorious for BSing about car maintenance, and I don't think
he ever changed the antifreeze in at least 10 years, although the car
only got 28K miles in 15 years. An acetic condition in the cooling
system would attack aluminum parts first, so I think the other
poster's mention of his 273 with a porous front cover is quite valid.
Won't know until I pull the pump. Meanwhile, the wife's taking it to
work and reporting back tonight about temp issues.
I sure hope it isn't anything else. This car runs like a dream
(although with the usual low power) and gets pretty good economy...17
around town, up to 28 on the road. It was obvious when the O2 sensor
crapped out; I didn't even have to test it. The system went open loop
and around town mileage went down to 12-13 along with a fluffy black
exhaust pipe. When the feedback system's working right, though,
there's a little "surge" when under light power in lockup third gear.
Another thing: The AIS passages in the intake manifolds were
partially plugged with carbon, probably from running too rich due to a
failed O2 sensor. Now that everything's cleaned up (and I unstuck the
vanes in the air pump) the exhaust is medium gray and the mileage is
back up again.
People generally don't hold M-bodies like this in very high regard,
but I must tell you...it's a good, honest car that does everything
pretty well and some things really well. Just don't expect to go very
fast with 120 BHP!
Steve
I've read down this far, and it looks like you do NOT have a leak
between the cooling system and combustion chambers. Good news. If I read
right, what you DO have is an overheating condition with no evidence of
coolant being lost, correct?
That being the case, I'd look into a couple of areas. First- water pump
(but it sounds like you're onto that alread). Second would be the
radiator- you said it had been neglected, so have it rodded out (or
replace it). Third is the fan clutch. Yes, it may pass the "spin it by
hand and see if it stops" test, but still be inadequate. Been there,
done that. I would definitely invest in a new fan clutch on general
principle in a car this old (nevermind the miles- it may have lost some
of its fluid out the shaft seal or the thermostat seal in the front.)
If there IS coolant loss and I just missed the description, then those
who have pointed to the timing case are making a very good suggestion.
That, along with the fact that coolant flows through the intake
manifold, are the two big weaknesses of the LA cooling system compared
to the superior B/RB cooling system in my opinion. Mixing oil and water
in a B/RB v8 is a virtual impossibility (barring a blown head gasket or
cracked block).
OldeChrysler
>I've read down this far, and it looks like you do NOT have a leak
>between the cooling system and combustion chambers. Good news. If I read
>right, what you DO have is an overheating condition with no evidence of
>coolant being lost, correct? <snip>
That's it, Steve. Air/gas is being drawn or injected into the system
from somewhere.
>That being the case, I'd look into a couple of areas. First- water pump
>(but it sounds like you're onto that alread). <snip>
A new Cardone rebuild showed up in UPS today, but won't get to it
until at least tomorrow.
>Second would be the
>radiator- you said it had been neglected, so have it rodded out (or
>replace it).<snip>
The old "flow test" routine proved OK (especially considering it's a
single row core) but I think I'm going to pull the tanks off of it
anyway and give it a rod job, just to be on the safe side. Geez, I
haven't rodded a radiator in what...15 years???
>Third is the fan clutch. Yes, it may pass the "spin it by
>hand and see if it stops" test, but still be inadequate. Been there,
>done that. I would definitely invest in a new fan clutch on general
>principle in a car this old (nevermind the miles- it may have lost some
>of its fluid out the shaft seal or the thermostat seal in the front.) <snip>
I'm 99.9999% confident in the fan clutch. Starts up, fan at full
speed, once the silicone works its way to the outer edge of the body,
fan slows down. However, once hot water hits the core, and the AC is
on, and the bimetal coil heats up, I do get full fan again. I'll keep
that as the absolute last thing to replace.
I'm really thinking one of two things are going to wind up being the
resolution: 1.) corroded, "spongy" aluminum in the front cover,
causing crankcase gas to be drawn in around the back of the impeller,
or 2.) the lip seal on the front of the pump either got some crud in
it or failed completely. A NAPA combustion gas test again proved
negative, and I again see a slight oil or grease sheen on top of the
water. That would indicate to me that it's sucking crankcase vapors
(and oil mist) through a pinhole in the front cover. You'd figure
that a hole that big would also leak water into the timing chain
compartment, but so far, there's nothing to indicate any moisture at
all in there. I've seen that before on '60s Buicks, and you usually
get steam coming out of the breather if you pull the PCV out.
Still not resolved. However, the engine (before it starts heating up,
anyway) runs easily as well as when it was new...no flat spots, EFC
computer seems to be working perfectly, idle is glassy smooth, exhaust
is a nice, clean light gray, and fuel economy seems back toward
excellent, although I still won't take it out on the road until this
cooling mess is cleared. Just driving around out and about, it turned
in 17 MPG today, although that's not really a valid test...too short.
>That, along with the fact that coolant flows through the intake
>manifold, are the two big weaknesses of the LA cooling system compared
>to the superior B/RB cooling system in my opinion. Mixing oil and water
>in a B/RB v8 is a virtual impossibility (barring a blown head gasket or
>cracked block). <snip>
Actually, I've seen comparatively few cooling problems on well
maintained LAs, but absolutely none on Bs or RBs. Chrysler easily had
the best stock cooling systems on the road during the V8 era. My
expereinces with FE Fords backs that statement up for certain!
OldeChrysler
<desert...@rglobalSPAM.net> wrote:
>I can only think of two possibilities...lip seal in the water pump is
>sucking in air, or...<snip>
Test idea: The LA aluminum water pump casting has a large weep hole
just forward of the lip seal. I'm going to temporarily plug it with
some cork/asphalt refrigeration insulation (sticky, air tight when
compressed) and see if it stops. The pump's getting changed out
anyway, but this should prove the lip seal good or bad...and be a
quick and easy test for same in the future.
Steve
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:45:23 -0500, Steve <n...@spam.thanks> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've read down this far, and it looks like you do NOT have a leak
>>between the cooling system and combustion chambers. Good news. If I read
>>right, what you DO have is an overheating condition with no evidence of
>>coolant being lost, correct? <snip>
>
>
> That's it, Steve. Air/gas is being drawn or injected into the system
> from somewhere.
>
>
>>That being the case, I'd look into a couple of areas. First- water pump
>>(but it sounds like you're onto that alread). <snip>
>
>
> A new Cardone rebuild showed up in UPS today, but won't get to it
> until at least tomorrow.
>
>
>>Second would be the
>>radiator- you said it had been neglected, so have it rodded out (or
>>replace it).<snip>
>
>
> The old "flow test" routine proved OK (especially considering it's a
> single row core) but I think I'm going to pull the tanks off of it
> anyway and give it a rod job, just to be on the safe side. Geez, I
> haven't rodded a radiator in what...15 years???
You know, I'd forgotten that this was the era of the 3/4-inch thick
single-core radiator at Chrysler (the last M-body left our family in
about 1998). Those things are pretty pathetic. I'll betcha you might
have a a fairly high percentage of plugged tubes, even though the total
flow is still OK.
Also, you might replace the radiator cap, just for grins. I've seen it
work miracles.
>
>>That, along with the fact that coolant flows through the intake
>>manifold, are the two big weaknesses of the LA cooling system compared
>>to the superior B/RB cooling system in my opinion. Mixing oil and water
>>in a B/RB v8 is a virtual impossibility (barring a blown head gasket or
>>cracked block). <snip>
>
>
> Actually, I've seen comparatively few cooling problems on well
> maintained LAs, but absolutely none on Bs or RBs. Chrysler easily had
> the best stock cooling systems on the road during the V8 era. My
> expereinces with FE Fords backs that statement up for certain!
I've got >400,000 miles on a 318, and its rarely had any issues. But the
thinness of that timing case coolant passage seal and the propensity for
it to corrode always worry me. I really like the big-block "no water
ever passes through the same gasket that oil passes through" approach.
Well, except for the head gasket- but then those 17 head bolts per head
do a good job of keeping it intact :-)
And Ford FEs aren't a fair comparison.. There's something about the blue
oval on the grille that makes cars overheat and catch fire :-) (I'm
actually a Ford fan, but sheesh they've had a long history of weak
cooling systems).
Steve
The forward bearing isn't air tight, so plugging the weep hole won't
stop air. The weep hole's really just there to let any water that gets
past the seal drain out before it gets to the front bearing.
DeserTBoB
>You know, I'd forgotten that this was the era of the 3/4-inch thick
>single-core radiator at Chrysler (the last M-body left our family in
>about 1998). Those things are pretty pathetic. I'll betcha you might
>have a a fairly high percentage of plugged tubes, even though the total
>flow is still OK. <snip>
I'm inclined to agree, but in defense of the old single row core, this
car, when things are working properly, never gets above about 205-210°
with a 195° stat, even on the hottest days. However, if only 10-15%
of the tubes are plugged, it would seriously impact capacity.
>
>Also, you might replace the radiator cap, just for grins. I've seen it
>work miracles. <snip>
New Stant, no help there.
>And Ford FEs aren't a fair comparison.. There's something about the blue
>oval on the grille that makes cars overheat and catch fire :-) (I'm
>actually a Ford fan, but sheesh they've had a long history of weak
>cooling systems). <snip>
The FE's cooling system is a joke in comparison even to a 318...small
passages to/from the pump, low pump capacity, overheat at the drop of
a hat in traffic...I've seen it all! Ford small blocks seem to be
better, but exhibit similar traits. The 335 engine (429/460, etc)
also seem to have their share of cooling problems.
DeserTBoB
>The forward bearing isn't air tight, so plugging the weep hole won't
>stop air. The weep hole's really just there to let any water that gets
>past the seal drain out before it gets to the front bearing. <snip.
Well, it DID slow it down...very little air in the system this
morning, never got much above thermostat temp. Pump
changeout...uh....soon...when it's below 105 outside!
Steve
The fact that it CAN pull air in past a seal at all worries me- it would
seem to indicate that the cooling system is never pressurizing, or is
pressurizing late. Are you running a "partial pressure" type rad cap
(the kind where the metal disk in the center of the gasket dangles
freely) or a full-pressure cap (where the metal disk has a spring to
keep it tight)? Older Chrysler service manuals recommend a
partial-pressure cap, but I've found that (at least in my climate-
central Texas) a full-pressure cap is the only way to go. With a partial
pressure cap, I steadily lose coolant and often the cars will "burp"
coolant out the overflow tube when you shut them down hot. Never happens
with a full-pressure cap.
OldeChrysler
>The fact that it CAN pull air in past a seal at all worries me- it would
>seem to indicate that the cooling system is never pressurizing, or is
>pressurizing late. <snip>
Oh, it pressurized alright...trust me...especially after sucking some
air in there and then warming up. Gets right up to 12 lbs in a hurry.
>Are you running a "partial pressure" type rad cap
>(the kind where the metal disk in the center of the gasket dangles
>freely) or a full-pressure cap (where the metal disk has a spring to
>keep it tight)? Older Chrysler service manuals recommend a
>partial-pressure cap, but I've found that (at least in my climate-
>central Texas) a full-pressure cap is the only way to go. With a partial
>pressure cap, I steadily lose coolant and often the cars will "burp"
>coolant out the overflow tube when you shut them down hot. Never happens
>with a full-pressure cap. <snip>
True. The Stant is a partial pressure cap, but they do make a full
pressure version. If this continues, I'll try one. I never had a
problem with the partial pressure cap prior to this incident.'
Although the plugged weep hole did slow down the sucking of air into
the pump, it didn't stop it completely, as tugging on the "safety"
vent lever proved after doing some errands...there was SOME air (NOT
steam) in there, for certain, but not nearly as much, and there wasn't
enough air in the system to prevent the heater from getting hot water.
Maybe pump changeout tomorrow...THEN we'll know more.
OldeChrysler
<desert...@rglobalSPAM.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:04:29 -0500, Steve <n...@spam.thanks> wrote:
>
>>The fact that it CAN pull air in past a seal at all worries me- it would
>>seem to indicate that the cooling system is never pressurizing, or is
>>pressurizing late. <snip>
Front end came off this afternoon, and the "el cheapo" pump was
installed properly...but a cheapo. I'm suspicious of the lip seal
indeed, as it appears to be cocked somewhat. It's a crappy little
affair compaired to the Cardone rebuild I got. Interesting also is
that the "el cheapo" has 7 small vanes that are set too shallow, while
the Cardone pump has 6 big vanes that go all the way back to the end
of the shaft. The lip seal arrangement also looked a LOT beefier on
the Cardone; the "el cheapo" spring for the lip seal was so weak, I
could press it down with my finger easily. Also, there were tell-tale
signs of leakage around the weep hole once I got the pump off...even
more evidence of early seal failure. The "el cheapo" is only two
years old.
The front cover, amazingly, shows no real signs of corrosion at all,
but I'm going to ScotchBrite the surface to take a better look, just
to be sure.
Looks like I found the problem, but won't know until I make everything
"pretty" (I'm nuts about keeping things clean and painted) and
properly installed and then do a test run. But, it wouldn't surprise
me. I lot of service station operators are using bottom-barrel parts
suppliers like Poop Boys and AutoBone of late to save money, and this
may be an example. From the looks of things, I'd recommend this
A-1/Cardone rebuild to any pro. They have a couple of plants in
Pennsylvania and customer service/shipping is lightning fast, even
through a reseller. They also have smog pumps...something I may have
to do as well, since I note only two of the three vanes in mine are
really moving a lot of air! Another thing to inspect/fix/replace.
Oh the joy of old cars. Keeps guys like me out of trouble with the
local girls, though! Thanks to Steve for all his helpful tips.
DeserTBoB
<desert...@rglobalSPAM.net> wrote:
>Front end came off this afternoon, <snip>
...and is now back together and cooling as new! I just backflushed
the radiator core, as it was flowing too well to really indicate a
rodding, and there wasn't much header scale in the top tank.
Cause: Defective lip seal in cheaply rebuilt water pump.
Thanks to all for their ideas.
kmat...@sisna.com
Is the Cardonne only available by mail, or are they sold by any
retailers? Do you have any experience with water pumps sold by NAPA?
Just curious.
-KM
OldeChrysler
<kmat...@sisna.com> wrote:
>Is the Cardonne only available by mail, or are they sold by any
>retailers? Do you have any experience with water pumps sold by NAPA?
>Just curious. <snip>
A-1/Cardone is a rebuilder/manufacturer. They do not sell direct, but
their porducts are available at retailers, including rockauto.com,
probably one of the better online parts stores. Most of their
retailing is on the east coast, however, but their rebuild quality is
excellent from what I've seen.
I've never had many problems with NAPA parts, as a rule, and they're
always preferrable over "bonehead" retailers like Poop Boys and
AutoBone. It's best to avoid those two places in particular...bad
parts, worse counter help, sneaky corporate pricing games. Most all
NAPA stores I've ever dealt with (for 30+ years) are pretty good,
although I notice lately that they're sort of "morphing" in to a
better Poop Boys, as they're feeling the competition.
For locally bought parts, I still trade with local independents. The
big chain stores aren't even good for simple items like oil and
filters anymore. AutoBone doesn't even carry straight weight oil
anymore from the big producers, only their house brand garbage oil!
Reason? More profit mark-up in "cachet" multi-weights, especially the
syns and syn blends. Do some pricing...AutoBone is usually more
expensive on these items than most others.
Another bone to pick with the big chains...poor quality belts and
hoses. AutoBone carries Mexican belts and molded hoses with
predictably poor quality. PoopBoys seems more interested in selling
illegal "pocket bikes," go-karts, refrigerators and DVD players than
auto parts. Shame, since I remember when the old, pre-corporate Pep
Boys was a pretty decent and cheap place for old car fans to get
stuff. Now, if your car is more than 10 years old, forget it....they
won't carry it at all. Their counter help is de rigeur for corporate
retailers these days...meaning minimum wage, off-the-street dummies.
Most wouldn't know the business end of a wrench from a ball peen!
DeserTBoB
<winches...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>DESERTBOB (not its real name) is a troll. <snip>
See alt.collecting.8-track-tapes for the skinny on this troll. He's
trying to "trollshift," a trick he thinks that works, which he got off
of flayme.com. His real name is Charles M. Nudo, Jr., of Drums, PA, a
well known eBay fraudster and crook as 66fourdoor.
Kill file? YES! But beware...he used to use at least 14 different
pseudonyms over the years, but thanks to having many accounts banned
for bad behavior, is now down to about 3 or 4.
DeserTBoB
<winches...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>DESERTBOB aka OLDECHRYSLER aka OLDIECHRYSLER (not its real name) is a
>troll.
>It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups, <snip>
Lie. He's "trollshifting"...or at least trying to do so. See him get
outed as a Usenet moron (on Goo Goo Groopz...where else?) in
alt.collecting.8-track-tapes. He's also a known criminal who uses
extortion and bribes to get "good" feedback on eBay as 66fourdoor.
Solution: Kill File
maxpower
"duty-honor-country" <winches...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156715001....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
OldieChrysler wrote:
> 1986 LA roller cam 318 in an M-body, 85K, mysteriously started sucking
> air (or exhaust gas) into the cooling system, causing odd overheating
> symptoms. Off came the whole top end, with judicious inspection of
> the heads as well as deck and head surface flatness. All looked well,
> and the valves were in pristine shape. After complete cleanup, new
> Fel-Pro gasket set (along with the "one size fits all LAs" head gasket
> that robs you of 5 lbs of compression!), figuring it was a pinhole
> leak in one of the head gaskets. Back together, with the freshly
> kitted carb, new RN12YCs, new wires/cap/rotor, new O2 sensor and
> meticulous reassembly, the old LA ran SO smoothly and quietly it was
> eerie. However, here comes the bubbles...again! Prior to the top end
> job, I had fed 125 lb. air to each cylinder, and never did get
> positive sighting of bubbles in the top tank of the radiator. But, a
> firing cylinder under load, even in a low compression engine like
> this, produces a lot more than 125 lbs. on the cylinder walls.
>
> I can only think of two possibilities...lip seal in the water pump is
> sucking in air, or...there's a pinhole in one of the cylinder walls
> that's allowing exhaust gas to pass, but not water to pass the other
> way. While glaze busting the cylinders, there WAS an odd little rust
> spot in #5 that I attributed to water getting in there during head
> removal (don't you LOVE they way they hid those drain plugs behind the
> new style motor mounts????), but it went away with a single pass of
> the hone, and nothing looked unusual. However, this engine, while in
> great condition overall (.0002-3 taper in all cyls...barely a ring
> mark to be seen) the original owner (the know-it-all father-in-law)
> didn't seem to believe that you needed to change antifreeze regularly.
> Thus, the jackets were FULL of rust flakes, necessitating me taking a
> pressure washer nozzle down into the block to clean it up. After the
> pressure washer treatment, the walls of the water jackets were grey
> iron with ocassional dark rust spots here and there. However, if by
> doing this, I knocked all the rust loose, the problem should've gotten
> worse, and it didn't. Actually, it improved...slightly...but it is
> still there.
>
> Prior to this, this engine would NEVER get more than 5° above
> thermostat in any condition except pulling a grade when 110° out with
> the AC on. Now, it gets up to 210° just putting around town at 45
> MPH.
>
> Anyone heard of any bad block castings on this vintage LA engine?
> Also, anyone had a water pump do exactly what this may be doing? No
> bearing noise, and the weep hole is clean, but it's a two year old
> "rebuild" (the original blew the seal right out the nose on a trip to
> Vegas on the hottest day of the year).
>
> The car, an '86 M-body 5th, is a cream puff, and I've grown to love
> it, even with its various faults. Strengths: comfy "rich Corinthean
> leather" seating all around; low noise level; excellent handling;
> excellent AC; straightforward, honest design, no engineering
> "gotchas," and it has Lee Iacocca in the trunk under the spare cover.
> (Ricardo Montalban is a no-show.) Weaknesses: Choppy ride at times;
> A-904 TF's lockup converter locks up at 36 MPH in 3rd gear...no matter
> WHAT the load...no part throttle unlock...have to downshift to second
> to knock it off; the usual headliner replacement (normal in any car
> this old); jiggly front sheet metal on rough roads; rather ungainly
> styling; and the standard MoPar feature...HARD to work on in places,
> something I think that's been a MoPar standard since the '60s. You
> need every wiggle and U-joint extension you may have in your
> rollaround, but if you're smart, everything comes apart fine.
>
> Hate to trash this car for a porous cylinder wall. My wife loves it,
> too (it was her mom's when new) and it hasn't even hit 100K yet, and
> the paint and interior are still quite nice and draw compliments
> wherever we go.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Caveat: If you have an old engine with low mileage where the original
> owner ran long oil change intervals with mediocre oil, and you see
> crusty sludge on the rockers (or wherever,) do yourself a
> favor....strip the top end, clean it out BEFORE switching to
> synthetic. I didn't, thinking the syn would sort of erode the
> carbonized oil and slowly send it to the filter. I got away with it,
> but after my clean up after dear Dad-In-Law, I'd never chance it
> again. The amount of crap loosened up and laying in the pan was a bit
> scary. Oddly enough, the pickup screen was clean, but every oil
> change, that filter (Fram Double Guard) was HEAVY. I changed out the
> oil pump just to feel safe, and later disassembly of the original
> proved me right...there was a LOT of abrasive wear in it.
BICYCLE (not its real name) is a troll.
It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups,
including many rabid/sex/racist groups.
Normally, it starts off with reasonable, even witty lines,
but rapidly drifts into lies, abuse and stupidity.
Check its details at Google Groups at this URLs- it has recently been
"branded" as a troll with its previous username, and has just created a
new Google Groups name to post here as "OldeChrysler"- read its post
history at these links for an eye-opening expose'- if you look at the
email addresses for each epiphany will strike- check its recent posts
on alt.collecting.8tracktapes where it shows its true nature.
It is a sad creature, deserving of pity, not anger.
Any direct response simply feeds it,
but it will go away if you ignore it.
Ok children, go to the corner for a time out
DeserTBoB
cycling...never got above thermostat temperature, ever. Who says
those single row core radiators were "weak?"
Being curious (and having too much time on my hands sometimes) I took
the old one and pressed off the impeller to get a look at the
condition of the cheapie lip seal used in it. The failure cause was a
poor quality rubber used as the sealing agent...even with distilled
water/polypropylene glycol, the seal was severely abraded and the
rubber appeared "checked." The bearing was still good, but didn't
look to be of very good quality. This, in combination with a really
weak (no rust) seal spring, and all hell broke loose in the cooling
system.
Another object lesson in "you get what you pay for!"
duty-honor-country
OldeChrysler wrote:
.
>
> Oh the joy of old cars. Keeps guys like me out of trouble with the
> local girls, though! Thanks to Steve for all his helpful tips.
Att: Chrysler fans- "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" is a poser- he
drives a 1979 Honda and has been flaming American cars on Usenet now
for 5 years. See his previous threads below:
duty-honor-country
> OldeChrysler wrote:
> .
> >
> > Oh the joy of old cars. Keeps guys like me out of trouble with the
> > local girls, though! Thanks to Steve for all his helpful tips.
ATT: "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" is a ricer, read his previous
pro-rice post below:
1 From: DeserTBoB - view profile
Date: Fri, Dec 16 2005 6:30 pm
Email: DeserTBoB <dese...@rglobal.net>
Groups: alt.collecting.8-track-tapes
Not yet ratedRating:
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One BIG reason? Long term support. I just ordered some miscellaneous
OEM gasket and small parts for my Accord, and Honda still provides
them, along with internet ordering! Try THAT with GM or Ford! This
car is 27 years old, and I can still get most all critical parts to
keep it running as it should. Trim and interior parts are spotty, but
still available sometimes, and in the right color! I remember my '70
Ford...after five years, you couldn't order dash pads for it
anymore...five years! I put a new dash in that Accord in 1997, fresh
from the factory, and in the CORRECT color.
Another story on this. For reasons never fully explained, my
grandmother bought one of 199 Toyota Crowns sold in the US that year.
This was truly a "japmobile"...4.11 gears with 14" rims which would
give about 4500 RPM at freeway speeds, archiac power steering stolen
from GM's Saginaw design used from 1951-'55, a direct and smaller copy
of Moraine's power brake unit, a downsided copy of the
Borg-Warner/Ford FMX transmission, dash design stolen from the 1969-70
Oldsmobile...just a patchwork of mismatched, badly engineered parts
that didn't work well. Add the then-common "jap" styling, and you had
a real novelty...and one that would have people stop and gawk every
time you drove it. In Japan, these cars were considered to be
limousines, and all high government and industry officials of the late
'60s and early '70s were chauffeured around in them. True to form of
the era, it was too small for most any American, unless you were a
woman. It also had the horrid 4M straight 6 cylinder engine, which,
like many Toyotas of the era, would burn exhaust valves regularly due
to bad cooling design. The 4M also had siamesed cylinders, which gave
uneven piston skirt and ring wear. Chevrolet also had siamesed
cylinders on its dreadful small block 400", which didn't last very
long.
Anyway, Grandma gave the Crown to my Mom to use as a "grocery getter"
so she wouldn't have to use the Cadillac around town, and Grandma went
to a Buick X body, which lasted her until she died in it in an
accident. Not that it mattered much to my mom...the Crown got worse
gas mileage than did the Cadillac...around 11 MPG around town, MAYBE
14 on the road. Anyway, since it was such a curiousity to people on
the street, and in mint condition, we kept it in the fleet.
One day many years later, a tell tale puddle of green under the front
of the engine foretold a failing water pump seal. Getting a water
pump for Toyopet 4M in the US was nigh impossible through most parts
sources, but one call to a local Toyota dealer had a new pump, with
its captive viscous fan drive clutch, air freighted to him the next
day! $104, which for a water pump in those days was outrageous, but
they had the parts. Other very obscure oddball parts for this
particular car, such as the retro-50s power steering gearbox, were
also similarly available for years afterward, even though only 199 of
these things were sold in the US in 1971!
Try that on GM or Ford...FAHGEDDABOUDIT! However, Chrysler has bucked
that trend, and you can still get many minor parts for the old M-body
RWD Fifth Avenues today, even though most M-bodies are more than 20
years old. I bet Noodles can't get a lot of parts for his Grand Prick
now, either! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh...the Crown? My sister wound up with it, and sold it to an
interested collector. Despite her inability to keep a car running for
more than a year at a time, the Crown carried her around for two.
Reason she got rid of it? Bad fuel economy!
duty-honor-country
duty-honor-country wrote:
> OldeChrysler wrote:
> .
> >
> > Oh the joy of old cars. Keeps guys like me out of trouble with the
> > local girls, though! Thanks to Steve for all his helpful tips.
AttL Chrysler fans- "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" is a ricer posing as
an old car buff- read his pro-rice post below:
33 From: DeserTBoB - view profile
Date: Sat, Dec 18 2004 7:56 pm
Email: DeserTBoB <dese...@rglobal.net>
Sounds about right. American Honda frowned on dealers tacking on a
big markup due to the cars' popularity, but many did anyway, sometimes
up to $500, putting the Honda into the Big 3's price territory...and
they'd STILL outsell 'em. The Datsun store I worked at briefly was
tacking on $750 onto 280Zs and $500 on longbed pickups using the old
"LustreGlaze" scam...$750 for a cheapie wax job...just to make up for
the lousy sales on everything else. They couldn't get rid of 710s no
matter how high the spiff or how hard the ad campaign. One weekend,
the snails manager offered a $500 spiff on ANY 710 sold that weekend,
regardless of how many. As luck would have it, I managed to get four
"ups" looking for wagons, and we had 4 710 wagons, two in that ugly
pumpkin orange, one in a nasty "rubber red", but one in a really nice
dark metallic green. I was quite happy, and so was the store owner,
just to get rid of 'em. The F&I guys were really pissed off, since
three were cash deals. F&I guys would try to rip off the salesman,
even on cash deals, by throwing a "pad" in on the rear end of the
deal, but I'd always catch them. Chuckie Noodles would've made a
GREAT F&I guy; they were all crooks and frauders.
Meanwhile, down the street at Honda, people couldn't get enough of the
Accord and Civic hatchbacks...they were literally selling them off the
trucks as they arrived, and they were taking two and three deliveries
a DAY. They had to have 2 shifts of prep guys just to set 'em up
right off the trucks and drive 'em to the front to make delivery. A
guy who sold over there told me there was no selling involved...just
order taking, and they got full commish on each one. They sold
themselves. Things were a little better over at the Toyota store,
Celicas being the big movers over there, as well as the tinny
Corrolas, but nothing like what Honda had going. Over at the
Chrysler-Plymouth store, the only thing that was selling out were
Aspens and Cordobas. I remember one weekend I drove by, and they had
all their "Space Duster" hatchbacks backed up to the street with the
hatches open, and they sold 'em all out in one Saturday. Hatches were
hot in the '70s. People liked the Cordoba, too...until they checked
the gas mileage.
In the Clarion display most Datsun dealers had, there was the "el
cheapo" AM/FM mono (not a too bad radio, actually), a really lousy
AM/FM stereo (bad noise problems) with shitty 4" speakers, an
AM/FM/cassette (actually by Fujitsu) and...TADA...one AM/FM/8 track
from...RCA! This was back before the days of lots of aftermarket
in-dash radios, so selling radios was a profitable business. Most
opted for the stock AM/FM mono, which I believe tacked on $39.95. The
second most popular was the RCA 8 track, and I remember that set had
some balls to it. I seem to remember it was more expensive than the
Fujistu-Ten cassette, which was ALWAYS coming back for warranty
repair. The RCAs were so popular, they'd "recycle" them as 1 or 2
year old cars would come back on trade-in, clean the heads, and sell
them as "demonstrator" units on new cars. Over at Honda, the Panasonc
AM/FM/8 track was their biggest seller by far...the one with the
fold-away radio scale. No power, but clean sounding until you pushed
it too far. The Honda stock AM Fujitsu-Ten radios were really awful,
so they made a lot of money on 8 tracks back in those years.
I seem to remember GM being VERY pissed off at longtime franchise
holders who'd add Japanese lines. I know this Datsun dealer had to
build a separate facility away from his B-O-P outlet, or GM threatened
to start screwing with his inventory, which was their perogative,
since he was an independent operator using factory provided stock.
Factory outlet stores, which still existed in those days, were
especially vulnerable to this, since GM was paying the flooring costs
on the cars and the dealer had no money up front on any of them.
Franchisees had more latitude, since they had to pay all flooring
costs. If an outlet operator pissed off Woodward Avenue enough,
though, they'd wind up with crap like 4 cylinder stick shift Pontiac
Venturas they couldn't sell. You remember those...the rebadged Novas
with the "engine flavor of the day" which started that big GM engine
fraud lawsuit. I remember going to an Olds store and finding three V8
Omegas on the line...one with an Olds 350, one with a Chevy 305, and
one with a Buick 301! I remember asking the "up" guy, "Since when do
you sell all three BOP cars here?" His reply, "Just go to parts,
stick whatever badge you want on 'em." What a nudofraud deal THAT
was....
They should've given you a free new Delco 8 track every time you'd
blow a rear end...which'd be about 4 times a year, as I remember them.
'66s were THE worst for that. Go around a corner, the spider gears
would crack in half. I heard the early '67s were the same, but a
production change in that model run fixed the problem.
dB
DeserTBoB
<winches...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Att: Chrysler fans- "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" is <snip>
...kicking you to the curb.
Kill file list:
winches...@hotmail.com
bb...@epix.net
dyn...@hotmail.com
....and a couple of others of which he's probably forgotten the
passwords. Most of his other Google troll accounts have already been
shut down.
duty-honor-country
Looks like "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" has been outed again. Both
as a troll, and as a dumb ass, who tore down an entire 318 motor for a
"cooling problem", when in fact the problem was a stuck thermostat.
DeserTBoB
of Drums, PA, who never served a day of his worthless life in a
military, <winches...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Att: Chrysler fans- "OldeChrysler" aka "DeserTBob" is <snip>
...putting Charlie Nudo of Drums, PA into the crusher...again.
