93 Dodge Caravan 4Spd In Limp Mode
warreny
Are there any sensors that I can replace. It has 140K on it, have
changed the fluid every year with the CC fluid. Was running great -
5M from the house it stopped working - pulled over put it in park -
back in drive - went home in limp mode.
Thanks
Warren
Graham Shortt
speed sensors, then move onto the solenoid pack, then valve body etc. A
more sensible approach would be to 1st determine the trouble code, then look
at the systems and sensors involved with that code. It could very well be a
faulty sensor, or wiring, or it could be genuine slippage in which case its
overhaul time.
<warreny> wrote in message news:3d13f8e5...@news.intrex.net...
Racer X
Get the codes from the transmission controller. Don't buy any parts
until you have that. The controller probably knows what the problem is
and has stored a fault code. If it miraculously starts working again,
take it in and get the codes read anyway. The problem might have gone
away temporarily, but it didn't fix itself properly.
If you take it to a dealer, get two things only on the first trip.
First, you want to know all of the fault codes stored in the
transmission computer. Second, you want to know what version of the
firmware is in the computer. It won't hurt to have it updated to the
latest version. I think yours should be flash upgradeable. The upgrade
should be free. Your actual price might vary (widely), though.
The most common problems are bad sensors, wiring problems to the
sensors, bad solenoid pack. I've heard that you can sometimes clean a
dirty solenoid pack, but the official protocol is to replace it.
The control computer itself can also fail, but this is more rare. If
that's the problem, a junkyard computer from a 1993 or newer van will
work. A new one will probably be more expensive.
At 140,000 miles, it's possible that it's just worn out and needs
rebuilding, but check the easier and cheaper stuff first.
Racer X
1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
1992 Mazda Miata
1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
1988 Mazda RX-7 (Soon to be ITS racer)
1994 Caravan (OK, maybe it's a keeper, but I still want a VW Caddy)
1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])
meirman
Shortt" <GSh...@shaw.ca> posted:
>If your going to throw parts at it you can replace the input and output
>speed sensors, then move onto the solenoid pack, then valve body etc. A
>more sensible approach would be to 1st determine the trouble code, then look
>at the systems and sensors involved with that code. It could very well be a
>faulty sensor, or wiring, or it could be genuine slippage in which case its
>overhaul time.
Please, how do you get out the transmission codes, for his van or my
'95 LeBaron.
I only know how to find engine codes.
If you email me, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
If necessary, change domain to erols.com.
Directions are given as if you know nothing.
There's a big range here but I don't know who knows what.
Graham Shortt
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:hn8ahuo7b32uohp06...@4ax.com...
warreny
The same day I started the van and drove it up the street, it
shifted from 1st to 2nd and not to 3rd but just went like to neutral.
The 93 manual refers to 41TE 4 speed automatic. Why does everyone call
this transmission the A604. The book also makes reference to and input
(turbine) sensor, what is the turbine sensor. It looks like the
sensible thing to do is limp to the CC dealer for the diag. (Tues.)
Thanks
Warren
meirman
Shortt" <GSh...@shaw.ca> posted:
>Only via a CCD bus capable scan tool. No key method that I know of.
>"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
I rarely take the bus, but I know where to find one. Thanks.
warreny
Got the transmission fault codes 36 - 53 - 54 - 38 . Didn't see a
code 36 . The dealer said that we needed a complete rebuild.
everyone call this transmission the A604.
Thanks
Warren
Racer X
> The same day I started the van and drove it up the street, it
> shifted from 1st to 2nd and not to 3rd but just went like to neutral.
That's not a good sign.
> The 93 manual refers to 41TE 4 speed automatic. Why does everyone call
> this transmission the A604.
The 41TE is the same transmission as the A604. It just got a new name
in 1992 or so. Consumer Reports was so impressed with the early A604's
that it issued a "don't buy the A604 transmission" recommendation in
1991 or 1992. Chrysler then renamed the transmission to be the 41TE,
along with a few minor design changes which were supposed to fix some
of the worst problems.
> The book also makes reference to and input
> (turbine) sensor, what is the turbine sensor. It looks like the
> sensible thing to do is limp to the CC dealer for the diag. (Tues.)
>
> Thanks
>
> Warren
From your other message today, (this one hasn't made it to google.com
yet).
> Got the transmission fault codes 36 - 53 - 54 - 38 .
36 - "Code 36 is not stored alone. It is stored if a speed error
(codes 50 through 58) is detected immediatley after a shift. Look at
the possible causes associated with the speed error."
53 - Speed ratio fault in 3rd gear
54 - Speed ratio fault in 4th gear
38 - Partial torque converter clutch out of range.
> Didn't see a
> code 36 .
If the chart is the same in your 93 manual as it is in my 94 manual,
Code 36 is mentioned in the note on the left side of the page, above
the fault codes and below the possible causes if you turn the page 90
degrees to read the possible causes.
> The dealer said that we needed a complete rebuild.
The bad news is you might. The good news is you might not. The other
good news is that even if you do need a complete rebuild,
Daimler/Chrysler might pay half of the bill in the hopes that you'll
be happy with that and just go away for now and come back later and
buy more minivans and cars.
Did they do the pressure tests on your transmission? Also, did they
check the clutch volume indices (CVI's).
The symptom you reported of it going into neutral on the shift to 3rd
is an indication that the overdrive clutch is not engaging. It sounds
like it's not engaging at all, rather than just slipping a little. The
overdrive clutch must be engaged for both 3rd and 4th gear. The
question is why is the overdrive clutch not engaging. There are
several possible causes.
- the overdrive clutch is worn out or has failed. This will require a
complete rebuild to fix.
- snap ring failure on the overdrive drum. This is a known defect
covered by some TSB's. If this happened to yours, you'll want to
contact Chrysler. They might pick up half of your bill just for
asking, and some people have won full claims in small claims court.
- the valve body is leaking pressure for the overdrive clutch circuit.
Again, it will require a complete rebuild to fix this.
- inadequate pressure from the pump, or due to internal (or external)
leaks. Another rebuild candidate.
- the solenoid valve for the overdrive clutch is faulty (either
leaking or sticky). This can be fixed by replacing the solenoid pack.
(unofficially, you might be able to clean the solenoid pack and fix
this).
Have you had the fluid and filter changed regularly (at least every 3
years or every 30,000 miles). If not, nows a good time to change it
and also to see what's lurking in the bottom of the pan. If there's
bits and parts in the pan, skip the next 3 paragraphs. If you've been
good about changing the filter and the fluid, and the fluid looks
clean on the dipstick, you could go straight to the pressure tests.
Note, if you've had flushes, but never changed the filter, a clogged
filter could be part of the problem.
Have them do a pressure test on the transmission. The procedure is in
the factory service manual, and it sounds like you have a copy of
that.
If it fails the pressure test and there's no (or not enough) pressure
at the overdrive clutch pressure test port, but the pressures at the
other ports are good, I'd try a solenoid pack before I'd authorize a
complete rebuild. The solenoid pack is more likely to be the cause of
low/no pressure at the overdrive clutch port than the valve body or
any internal problems. Besides, if you get it rebuilt, the rebuild
should include a new solenoid pack anyway, so you're just buying that
part a little early.
If it passes the pressure test, or if it fails with low pressures
across the board, it will need a rebuild. Here's where it gets a
little complicated. You don't want the dealer to just pull your
transmission out and put a "rebuilt" unit in from God only knows
where. If the dealer just swaps transmissions, take it to another
dealer that rebuilds them in house, or find an independent shop that
rebuilds them in house and really knows the A604/41TE transmission.
You need to find a shop that can at least read the codes and CVI's out
of your computer and can run the pressure tests. Don't tell them you
already know the codes. You can use your information from the dealer
as a cross check/second opinion. Whoever rebuilds it, tell them in
writing on the repair order that you want a written report of what
failed, and a list of any "hard parts" that had to be replaced, no
matter how small or insignificant. If anything failed that's covered
by a TSB, I'd contact Chrysler. Just because it lasted this long
doesn't mean that they have no responsibility if it had defective
parts in it from the factory. The TSB's cover some known defects. In
some cases, Chrysler has basically admitted some responsibility for
these defects. Complain about the defects. It doesn't cost you much,
and they might pay half (or if you're really lucky or a real PITA to
them, all) of the repair bill just to get you to go away.
> The 93 manual refers to 41TE 4 speed automatic. Why does
> everyone call this transmission the A604.
See above.
Good luck with your transmission.
warreny
Dropped the pan and found alot of gray fiber silt in the pan, no
parts. Changed fluid and filter, no change. Looks like a rebuild.
Thanks to all for help, I'll keep you posted.
Thanks
Warren
warreny
The codes set were 36 / 53 / 54 / 38 . There was alot of gray fiber
silt in the pan and filter. I'm sure that the clutches are in need of
replacement. I changed the filter and fluid and it did the same.
Warren
warreny
36 - speed error associated with (50 - 58) codes and is to be
considered a mechanical problem.
38 - lockup control. internal transaxle problem.
53 - gear ratio in 3rd. internal transzxle problem.
54 - gear ratio in 4th. internal transaxle problem.
All this makes sence because of the large amount of gray fiber silt
that was found in the pan. We were able to get 140K out of this
tranmission so I think we did okay.
Warren
Racer X
First, these transmissions tend to drop a lot of clutch silt in the
pan. That's normal. If your used to looking in the pan of older RWD 3
speed units, what you see in the pan of a 41TE(A604) will look scary.
It might be entirely normal, though. There's 5 clutches in the
transmission itself, and there's a larger clutch on the torque
converter. By design, the torque converter clutch is partially engaged
(slipping) at times. So, in normal use, these things generate
something like 2 to 3 times (maybe more) clutch debris than the older
units. This is entirely normal.
Also, your symptoms don't exactly match excessive wear, either.
Usually, excessive wear failures are gradual. There's usually bad
shifting, and possibly shuddering in gear, before it totally fails.
The CVI's in the computer will go higher over time, too. This happens
becuase, to some extent, the computer will try to adjust itself to the
worn parts. You didn't say what the CVI's were on yours.
But yours sounds like it just lost the overdrive clutch altogether,
suddenly and all at once. That's not usually what "worn out"
transmissions do.
Your symptoms are a closer match to either
1) Snap ring failure on the overdrive clutch (an acknowledged defect
in these units, and Chrysler will usually pay for part of the repair)
2) Blockage in the solenoid valve hydraulic circuit between the valve
and the overdrive clutch actuator piston.
#2 might not require a rebuild, so I'd test for that first. A pressure
test will tell you whether there's a problem here. If there's low
pressure in the overdrive clutch pressure tap only, clean or replace
the solenoid pack first. That might solve the problem.
#1 will require a rebuild, but again, you should contact Chrysler
about it. They will probably pay for part of the repair. If they
don't, consider taking them to small claims court. People have won
full payment from them, even after taking the "we'll pay half" deal.
Good luck with it.
wood E
poorly made transmission's
get the fault codes and go from there! 7 out of ten times it's a sensor
or a wire problem and not a failed trans that causes it to go into limp
in mode
these trans controllers can be reprogramed but takes some special tools
from athe drb2 and there is a charge for reflashing and it is the cost
of a new controller since that is essentially what you get with a
reflash
i have repaired a lot of limp in mode trans issues do to a red wire with
a white tracer
that corriods and the computer loses it source of power
warreny
Where is the red wire so I can check it. I changed the fluid and
there was no change. Took the trans. out today to bring it in for a
bench rebuild. Drained the fluid and ther was alot more of the gray
fiber silt. Anyone know how long it should take a transmission
shop to do a bench build. I'm going to furnish all the rebuild parts.
That trans. is very hard to get hold of, kinda wants to tip forward
untile the final drive gets past the frame and then it tips backwards.
Its alot like a sneaker full of shit, real hard to handle.
Warren
warreny
Racer X
Not sure how long that should take. A few days seems reasonable, but
if they find additional parts problems, it could take longer,
especially if they have to call you and you have to provide the
additional parts.
Now, what do you plan to do once you get the rebuilt transmission back
from the shop?
Racer X
1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
1992 Mazda Miata
1994 Caravan (OK, maybe it's a keeper, but I still want a VW Caddy)
1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
1988 Mazda RX-7 (Soon to be ITS racer)
1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])
http://racer-x.freeservers.com
PS. Now would be a good time to look at your transmission controller.
If it doesn't have the heat sinks on the outside, you've got time to
go to a junkyard and find one that does. IIRC, the ones with the heat
sinks are flash upgradeable, the ones without the heat sinks aren't.
It's better to have the upgradeable kind.
warreny
Found a small shop that has very good references that will do the
bench rebuild for $450. I'm furnishing all the parts. Not to bad, the
labor book says it take 8 1/2 hrs. I'm sure that a person with
experience will not take that long. Most other shops wanted $650 to
$1050 for the same bench build. Anyway when I get it back I'll instal
it with great care. Its not going to be easy but I'll manage. I will
keep you all posted. ( this realy isn't a back yard job ) The new
parts include 2-sensors - master kit w/new metals - torque
converter w/ bushing - solenoid pack - filter - CC fluid.
Warren
warreny
I thought about doing the rebuild. And the what ifs came over me.
Didn't want to take the chance of making 1 small mistake and have to
drop it out again. I also thought, what if the shop makes the mistake,
They said if the rebuild failure was there fault that they would
remove and replace the transmission. I hate the thoughts of R&Ring
this trans. again.
Warren
Chris Mauritz
>
> Question: If you can get it out, buy the rebuild kit, why not do it
> yourself? At least you can be certain it will be done correctly.
>
> Most of the special tools can be fabricated (ie:sockets make great
> seal installers) and so forth.
>
> I'm just curious because for most of us the worst part is dropping th
> tranny.
I agree with Steve. You already did the hardest part. Also, I find
it a bit shocking that anyone would agree to bench rebuild a tranny
with customer supplied parts (unless it was a "hotrodding" situation
where higher performance parts were being added).
Cheers,
Chris
--
Chris Mauritz
ri...@mordor.net
warreny
When they took the tranmission apart they found that it needed all
new planatarys, not sure what planetarys are. They suggested that I
buy a reman. trans from the dealer. Got one from the dealer for $1200
- 3/36 warranty. Didn't want to buy one from CC but had no choice. It
is in the van and I'm going to finish hooking up a few things and road
test it on Monday. I'll keep you all posted.
Warren
Racer X
I guess my attempt at posting last week didn't work.
I hope that after you installed the new transmission, you used a DRB
scan tool to run through the "quick learn" procedure.
Also, if you replaced the torque converter, you need to use the DRB
scan tool to start the "torque converter clutch break in" procedure.
Both of these steps are necessary. Your computer doesn't know it has a
new transmission and a new torque converter clutch.
Actually, if you disconnected the power to the TCM for a while, it
will forget some of the settings for the old transmission. But it
won't start a torque converter clutch break in unless the DRB scan
tool sets it up to do that.
Without running these procedures, you can expect poor shifting, poor
TCC performance and possibly excessive wear on your brand new parts.
warreny
RacerX,
It is going in today to be reset. Thanks for the info.
Warren
Justin Masters - remove at to reply
> warreny wrote in message news:<3d3b5ad...@news.intrex.net>...
> > When they took the tranmission apart they found that it needed all
> > new planatarys, not sure what planetarys are. They suggested that I
> > buy a reman. trans from the dealer. Got one from the dealer for $1200
> > - 3/36 warranty. Didn't want to buy one from CC but had no choice. It
> > is in the van and I'm going to finish hooking up a few things and road
> > test it on Monday. I'll keep you all posted.
> >
> > Warren
>
> I guess my attempt at posting last week didn't work.
>
> I hope that after you installed the new transmission, you used a DRB
> scan tool to run through the "quick learn" procedure.
>
Does this DRB tool need to be used if he has a non-programmable unit?
Where does one get this DRB tool, btw? (I do my own work, and haven't
had to crack into the tranny - yet. '93 Gr. Caravan w/non-programmable
unit who has pulled power to reset Quick Learn settings and gone through
the list of stops/starts to get it running smoothly again.
Justin (remove at to reply)
> Also, if you replaced the torque converter, you need to use the DRB
> scan tool to start the "torque converter clutch break in" procedure.
>
> Both of these steps are necessary. Your computer doesn't know it has a
> new transmission and a new torque converter clutch.
>
> Actually, if you disconnected the power to the TCM for a while, it
> will forget some of the settings for the old transmission. But it
> won't start a torque converter clutch break in unless the DRB scan
> tool sets it up to do that.
>
> Without running these procedures, you can expect poor shifting, poor
> TCC performance and possibly excessive wear on your brand new parts.
>
> Racer X
>
> 1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
> 1992 Mazda Miata
> 1994 Caravan (OK, maybe it's a keeper, but I still want a VW Caddy)
> 1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
> 1988 Mazda RX-7 (Soon to be ITS racer)
> 1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])
>
> http://racer-x.freeservers.com
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Justin Masters (Systems Programmer) PH: 916 356-6735
Intel Corp. FM6-17 FAX: 916 377-2288
1900 Prairie City Rd, Folsom, CA 95630 jmas...@pcocd2.intelat.com
warreny
The transmission job was a complete success. There is a new
problem. Idles rough and while driving the car seems to ( electricly )
skip, the speedometer goes down and then it takes off again. Seems to
be a skip and only the speedometer does this on the instrument panel.
Checked and cleaned all the connectors I could see. Cleaned all the
connectors to the control boxes. Cleaned all the grounds I could find.
No change. Could I have damaged something when the motor was droped
down to remove the transmission, The throttle body was very close to
the brake master cylender. I checked for stored codes - none.
Warren
Racer X
> rac...@winning.com (Racer X) writes:
> >
> > I hope that after you installed the new transmission, you used a DRB
> > scan tool to run through the "quick learn" procedure.
> >
>
> Does this DRB tool need to be used if he has a non-programmable unit?
>
procedure and torque converter clutch break in procedure. The factory
service manual would definitely say whether these procedures need to
be run on the older units. When in doubt, RTFM. I only have a factory
service manual for our 1994, so I can't give you a definite answer,
though.
> Where does one get this DRB tool, btw? (I do my own work, and haven't
> had to crack into the tranny - yet. '93 Gr. Caravan w/non-programmable
> unit who has pulled power to reset Quick Learn settings and gone through
> the list of stops/starts to get it running smoothly again.
>
The dealerships definitely have the proper scan tools. I think most of
the major tool vendors (Snapon, Mac, etc) sell scan tools, too, and
some of those will work in Chrysler products that use the DRB scan
tool. None of these scan tools is cheap, though. They are much more
expensive than the OBD-II scanners that are available, and some are
specific to Chrysler vehicles.
If you watch eBay, you might see one pop up on there once in a while.
Also, I've been told that some Autozone stores have them available,
and you can take your car there and they will scan it for you or let
you use the tool. I haven't verified this information yet. I suspect
that all of the Autozones probably have the OBD-II scanner, and some
of the larger stores in big cities might have the Chrysler specific
DRB tool for use with pre-1996 Chrysler vehicles. But that's
speculation on my part and I haven't done any research on this.
There's no Autozone in our little town, so it doesn't help me much. I
could probably call around the Autozone stores in the Atlanta area (70
miles away from me) and find out what they have, but I haven't
absolutely needed the scan tool yet.
Racer X
The speedo problem sounds like a speed sensor problem. It's pretty
easy to mess up the wiring on that one taking the transmission out and
putting it in. Check for breaks or bad kinks in the wires (that might
indicate the conductor is broken). If there are no obvious problems
with the wire, a new sensor might be in order.
Eventually, this will probably set a code in either the engine
computer or the TCM. There might already be a code in the TCM. Or did
you check that with a scan tool?
The speed sensor shouldn't cause any problems with idling, though. I'm
assuming you mean idling at a dead stop, even in Park. This was a 3.0
liter Chrysler/Mitsubishi engine, right? Check all the vacuum hoses
for vacuum leaks, especially the ones around the EGR and around the
MAP sensor. Also check the wiring to the throttle body sensors.
You might also clean the throttle body and idle air bypass passage in
the throttle body. The little electric idle valve (AIS?) is famous for
getting gunked up, causing idle problems and engine dieing when
throttle is closed completely at speed (coasting). You might have
dislodged some carbon gunk and it might have fallen into the idle
bypass passage.
If it sounds like I'm just guessing here, it's because I am. But those
are some of the most common problems I've seen on our 3.0 engine.
Justin Masters - remove at to reply
Hmmm... Well, there is a sensor for speed, I think there's one connected to
a spot near one of the front brake systems. But I'm wondering if you replaced
the paper-type washer (literally a VERY thin - almost paper thin) at a sensor
(name escapes me right now) that is used for timing of the engine/firing of
plugs. If you took the sensor out and didn't put the paper "shim" back in, the
sensor would literally have it's tip ripped off.
The idle rough part could be part of the same sensor, but is most likely
to be seen at the throttle plate area. See if there's additional play in
the throttle cable at idle, and also clean the throttle plate really well,
especially the back side with a toothbrush & throttle body cleaner. Better
to take it off. Also just make sure all those vacuum hoses are attached
behind the intake manifold by the throttle body. I think there are 3-4 of them
and it's easy to forget one or more...
Justin - remove at to reply
warreny
The motor is a 3.3. The last time I road tested it, just after one
of the skips the motor just stopped working. coasted as close to the
drive way as possible. Waited about 30sec. and it restarted. I
replaced the plugs and wires about 2months ago, also cleaned the
throttle body. The idle motor dosen't seem to adjust fast enough to
keep the idle going, I'd better clean the throttle and passage again.
I did want to say that the transmission controler on this 93 - 3.3
was not flashable or programable. The new trans. shifted rough, the
manager at the trans. shop at the dealer was real nice about helping.
He tried to set the controler for the converter and to set it so it
would shift better and it would not work. He said the new controler
for this car would be programable. I got the new controler from parts,
he poped it on and programed it and the trans. shifted like new. He
also told me to come directly the trans. shop and not to go through
the service department.
Warren
warreny
New info. - Cleaned the throttle body, removed the idle air motor
and cleaned it out. The road test was from a cold start. The car
seemed to run like its old self. As soon as it came up to temp. the
skip and the rough idle were back. When I instaled the new trans. new
TC - bolts and a crankshaft sensor spacer came with the new trans.
Also the codes from the ignition key are 12 and 55 - seems ok. One
other thing that I noticed - when the car got to temp. - when I put a
med. to light heavy load on the motor - it seemed to be holding back
and constantly missing, almost like a vibration. All this happens when
the car gets up to temp. I have not changed the fuel filter for a
while so I'm going to do it today.
Warren
warreny
Was - Dodge Caravan 4sd Limp Mode 3.3 - 4sd
Changed the crank sensor and fuel filter, no change.
Warren
warreny
Must go out of town today, be back thursday to find out what the
problem is with the engine.
Warren