Water Depth, SUVS and 4x4's?
Ryan Gerrish
Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
appreciated...
-G
No Brakes Drake
I've always heard that if you go deeper than your hubs, you're pushing
your luck.
NBD
Doccers
In <5g0f2g$a...@sun.lclark.edu> ger...@sun.lclark.edu (Ryan Gerrish)
writes:
>Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
>4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
>saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info
is
>appreciated...
>
> -G
A good rule of thumb is if the water is 3/4ths up to the top of
your wheel and getting deeper, its time to hit reverse.
(Friend of mine with a CJ-7 told me this, I dont know if its true
or not, but It always works for me)
linda luik
Ryan Gerrish wrote:
>
> Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
> 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
> saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
> appreciated...
>
> -G
This is from a Four Wheeler magazine insert "Four Wheeling 101".
Hummer : 20 inches (no snorkel)
Full-size GMC/Chevy trucks, Suburbans, Tahoe/Yukon: 20 inches measured
from front axle, speed not exceeding 5mph
ZR2/S-10/Jimmy/Blazer: 30 inches measured from rear axle vent
Wrangler/Cherokee/Grand Cherokee : 19 inches, speed not exceeding 5mph
Dodge Ram: 19 inches mearused at rear axle vent tube
Dodge Dakota: 19 inches measured from bottom of doorsill, speed not
exceeding 8mph
Ford: (1995 F-250 Diesel) door sill is 23 inches, bottom of hubs 13
inches, vent tubes 30 inches, air intake is 46 inches above ground
Isuzu Trooper,Rodeo: 22 inches, transfer case vent tube
Isuzu pickup: 16 inches, front diff vent tube
Kia Sportage: 11 inches measured from bottom of hubs
Land Rover Disco, Defenders, Ranger Rover: 20 inches measured from
engine computer
Defender: doorsill is 24 inches, axle vents 33 inches, air intake 44
inches
Range Rover: 21.6 inches from computer
Mitsu Montero: 23 inches, axle vent tubes,41 inches at air intake
Nissan Pathfinder: 17.75 inches at axle vent, air intake 33 inches
Suzuki Sanurai: 21 inches at doorsill, 33 inches air intake
Suzuki Sidekick: 16 inches at doorsill, axle vent tubes 34 and 36 inches
front and rear,
primary air intake is 32 inches.
Toyota Tacome SR5: 17 inches at front diff vent tube, air intake 24
inches
Toyota 4Runner SR5: 21 inches at tranfer case vent tube, primary air
intake 33 inches
Toyota T100 SR5: 17 inches at front diff vent tube, air intake at 34
inches
Toyota Land Cruiser: axle vents 26-27 inches, air intake at 40 inches.
Linda Luik
Motorola Dust Devils 4WD Club
AZ Lo-Rangers 4WD Club
ASA4WDC
1995 Geo Tracker
Michael Hagen
Very interesting! For those of us who aren't usually in flood areas,
how damaging is it to get water in the front differential vent tube?
Water in the air intake will stop you dead in the water, but how about
other problems like wet spark plugs or cold water on a hot engine block,
just for a few obvious hazards. Just how far can you really go even with
a snorkle? (Did you believe the river crossing in Dante's Peak?) I
thought most rigs start to float when the water is midway on the doors.
m...@sequent.com
Ryan Gerrish wrote:
>
> Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
> 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
> saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
> appreciated...
>
> -G
I read all the replies to date, and they all give good advice. From all
the offroading I've done, I've used the simple rule that you can safely
go as deep as the distance from the ground to the bottom of your fan.
This can only be done *if* you've taken otehr necessary precautions,
such as waterproof your distributor (silicon bead around the edge when
installing the cap), non conductive grease inside spark plug cable ends,
and diff vent tubes that terminate high enough (i.e. above the tope of
the engine). I also use nonconductive grease on various electrical
connections such as the battery, starter/solenoid, coil and alternator.
I've managed to do ok in water up to 3 feet as long as I took it slow
and didn't stall the engine.
Brian
No Brakes Drake wrote:
>
> Ryan Gerrish wrote:
> >
> > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
> > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
> > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
> > appreciated...
> >
> > -G
>
> your luck.
>
> NBD
i was told by jeep dealer that i could go to the center of the
headlights.
have fun...
Andre Maritz
Michael Hagen wrote:
>
> linda luik wrote:
> >
> > Ryan Gerrish wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
> > > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
> > > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
> > > appreciated...
> > >
> > > -G
> >
Very interesting indeed. In a properly insulated engine, the air intake
is surely level of danger. I can not believe that the axle vents
represents any problems for reasons:
1. They can be moved higher wit relative ease.
2. They are vents and not intakes.
3. If the axles are hot from use, even a broken vent can't allow any
water into the axle as the pressure inside will be too high.
4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
Andre
Ryan Thomas
: Ryan Gerrish wrote:
: >
: > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
: > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
: > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
: > appreciated...
: >
: > -G
I know that an 88 dakota can not go into 3 feet of water... it was
flowing through the cab. I know that a toyota will not go through a
lake. Both from experience...
Also in a hummer with a snorkle.. there was water inside the cab... feet
and legs were wet. We made it through before the electrical got hit.
Oh yeah, Dante's Peak. Whatever. The headlights in the caddy were also
still working as it drove down the river fully submerged and rammed the
burban.. what ever.
--
Ryan Thomas
"Why is it not okay for girls, but its okay for boys?"
"It's called the double-standard, Bobby. Don't knock it, we got the long
end of the stick on that one."--KOTH
No Brakes Drake
Andre Maritz wrote:
> 2. They are vents and not intakes.
intakes.
As I said before, once one gets in over the hubs, trouble begins.
Good Luck
NBD
Tom Fritz
linda luik (minih...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Ryan Gerrish wrote:
: >
: > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
: > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
: > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
: > appreciated...
: >
: > -G
: This is from a Four Wheeler magazine insert "Four Wheeling 101".
: Hummer : 20 inches (no snorkel)
<snip>
Horse Hockey! I had mine in 4+ feet of water, and it would have
been fine... except I er... hit it hard, and this wall of water
hit the engine intake. If I had not hit it at 15+ mile per hour,
I would have been fine. :) I now have a PCV snorkle on it, that
places the intake about 6 foot high.
Also when the engine did inhale the 1/2 gallon of water, I just
had to remove the glow plugs, pump the water out, and it
started right up. Gosh, I love my Hummer!!!
The pictures are: http://www.isp.net/~t5150/
--tlf
1996 Turbo Diesel Wagon (Hummer)
Willem-Jan Markerink
In article <33255E...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za>, Andre Maritz
>Very interesting indeed. In a properly insulated engine, the air intake
>is surely level of danger. I can not believe that the axle vents
>represents any problems for reasons:
>
>1. They can be moved higher wit relative ease.
>water into the axle as the pressure inside will be too high.
It is the cooling that causes the problem if the intake is submerged.
The air will contract, and water will be sucked in. A )partly) clogged vent
is even worse, as it might pop the axle seals by the rapid air contraction.
Note that with this in mind, a slow water entering can prevent most of the
problem, as the vents should not let water in easily, since the diameter of
the tube is rather small.
>4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
>problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
Regular maintanance doesn't include replacing wheel bearings....things that
are at risk after water intrusions....
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
<w.j.ma...@a1.nl>
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
dirk
> > Very interesting! For those of us who aren't usually in flood areas,
> > how damaging is it to get water in the front differential vent tube?
> Very interesting indeed. In a properly insulated engine, the air intake
> is surely level of danger. I can not believe that the axle vents
> represents any problems for reasons:
>
> 1. They can be moved higher wit relative ease.
> 2. They are vents and not intakes.
> 3. If the axles are hot from use, even a broken vent can't allow any
> water into the axle as the pressure inside will be too high.
> 4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
> problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
>
> Andre
Actually, as the vents open to the outside air, they can release air from
inside the diff as it heats up, hence the pressure will be the same.
Actually, if the diff was hot then suddenly submerged, theoretically
(hehe, good way to start a flame war) the cooling effect would cause a
pressure drop inside the diff and atmospheric pressure (now higher than
inside the diff) would push water in.
But I do agree that vent tubes can be installed with ease, eliminating
this problem completely, and regularly changing the fluids (more often
that scheduled if you know you go through deep water) can prevent damage.
I guess I was lucky when the chicago suburbs flooded last year, I had to
take my Dodge ram-50 through deep water. Was about halfway across the
headlights, significantly up the door. Cruised through it perfectly, I
was amazed, but stalled 10 minutes later with water in the carb.
Interesting.
No .sig today.
No Brakes Drake
David Henley wrote:
>
> No Brakes Drake wrote:
> >
> > Andre Maritz wrote:
> > > 2. They are vents and not intakes.
> > intakes.
> >
> > As I said before, once one gets in over the hubs, trouble begins.
> >
> > Good Luck
> > NBD
> air intakes and have no trouble. They include MANY Jeeps and a few Land
> Cruisers. There was also Ford/Toyota P/U's here and there. I even did
> this in my Jeep. My problem came a month later after finding my vent
> tube fell off and salt water entered the diff in the rear. Your right
> about the pressure drop, but if you put the right vents on (mine 1/4"
> too large) no problems should occur. The problems are mostly interior
> damage, not mechanical if the rig is properly set up. I do realize that
> the original poster said stock, but others have already varied.
No argument here but see T.Jensen's reply. I still stand by my
statement. Most vehicles will handle 6-8" with no problems. Once you
get your hubs wet, the picture changes.
I don't doubt that a TJ could be driven in up to its headlights. But it
is a risk way beyond that encountered by mortal vehicles :)
Ever see the Jeep class at Orlando's Swamp Buggy Nationals? With
special prep they run in water OVER the hood. Of course, the occupants
do not remain dry. Sometimes, the passenger helps by paddling.
Good Luck
NBD
Jeff Gauvin
Andre Maritz <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> writes:
>In a properly insulated engine, the air intake is surely level of danger.
Very true. I've seen first-hand what can happen when an engine ingests
water. But often there are lower points that will cause an engine to
stall w/o causing damage (primarily electronics), and other points that
will cause eventual failure if not seen to immediately. For example: muddy
water in an alternator can destroy it in short order, same with starter
motors and solenoids.
And don't forget that radiator fans like to act like propellers in water,
propelling themselves into your radiator; this will stop you as surely as
ingesting water. Disconnect them!
>I can not believe that the axle vents represents any problems for reasons:
>
>1. They can be moved higher wit relative ease.
True.
>2. They are vents and not intakes.
False. They are just simple tubes, and will let air go either way. They
equalize pressure to keep the diffs from blowing seals.
>3. If the axles are hot from use, even a broken vent can't allow any
>water into the axle as the pressure inside will be too high.
Huh? A hot diff dropped into a cold stream will suck air/water in through
the vent.
>4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
>problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
False. Water in your diff can destroy bearings in less than a month. How
often do you check your diffs?
All fluids should be check ASAP after deep water crossings and all
grease-able points should be re-greased (prop-shafts, U-joints, etc.)
Most "modern" vehicles are not designed for deep water fording. The
Sub-mersible-burban in the movie Dante's peak was a riot (ROFLMAO); unless
it was a diesel (it wasn't) it couldn't wade like that. It takes more
than a snorkel to submerge a gasoline engine.
The owner's manual of my '94 Land Rover Defender 90 actually has a
section on deep water crossing -- very rare in this the era of lawyers.
--------------------------------
Jeff Gauvin
(firstname...@symbios.com)
*** opinions are my own ***
Paul W Harvey
On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:01:11 -0700, No Brakes Drake
<daryl...@asu.edu> wrote:
>Andre Maritz wrote:
> > 2. They are vents and not intakes.
>But when pressure drops as hot axle hits cold water, they become
>intakes.
>
>As I said before, once one gets in over the hubs, trouble begins.
>
True.
Things is this isn't catastophic. You'll be able to drive home and
change the fluids. If you get water in your air intake your hosed.
BIG PAIN in the butt to fix that, although do-able.
I found the posted 20" fording depth of the Hummer interesting. I've
seen it advertised as 30" for non-mil versions and was told it was 32"
for the mil version by a motor-hole guy.
Do the mils all get a snorkel?
--Paul
Trevor Jensen
SNIP!
> >4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
> >problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
>
> are at risk after water intrusions....
>
Okay, first let's define regular maintenance according to Chilton manual
(based on a mid/late '80s Ford, "Fix or Repair Daily"). They suggest
axle care about every 12,000 miles. However, even that dumb old Chilton
manual says that when submerging axles in water, or when used in deep
water, maintain every 8 hours of use. On the front axle this means tear
down to the steering knuckle on a Ford with the Dana 44-IFS front axle.
Roughly an hour per side, repack/replace bearings, inspect/replace
seals, and grease the hell out of the rest. Even CHILTON (worst book I
have ever owned) says this. I just replaced all joints in the above
listed axle, and can tell you that this is no party, but it should be
considered if you are planning to go stream crossing.
On a f**king environmental note, remeber that in certain states, to
forge a river with a non-aquatic vessel (your truck, 4x4) it is against
the stupid law.
The following is based on my own '84 Ford F-250 HD:
If you are planning on doing a bit of river interaction, I would first
grease the hell out of the front axles, from the hub to steering knuckle
with a tube of boat trailer axle grease. I would then take and seal my
rear floating axle ends with a little RTV (oil resistant of course).
After doing a bit of prolonged/multiple deep water (10" plus myself)
driving, I would drain and refill my diffies (sp?), and regrease the
axle. Get a good spindle socket if needed, and the correct tools to do
the job.
Remeber, I own a Ford and love it, but I am not certain if it would
always get me from point A to point B without proper maintainance, and I
know without maintainance my Chevy would giv me problems. Hope I have
helped, or at least confused the subject further.
David Henley
No Brakes Drake wrote:
>
> Andre Maritz wrote:
> > 2. They are vents and not intakes.
> But when pressure drops as hot axle hits cold water, they become
> intakes.
>
> As I said before, once one gets in over the hubs, trouble begins.
>
Eddie L. Runner
Tom Fritz wrote:
> I would have been fine. :) I now have a PCV snorkle on it, that
> places the intake about 6 foot high.
Mine To!
The PVC Snorkel has saved my truck numerous times.
here is a picture of it.
http://www.installer.com/pr10.jpg
or
http://www.installer.com/prerun.html
Eddie
====================================
Eddie Runner ed...@installer.com
http://www.installer.com/hummer.html
====================================
Robert
In <5g3631$5...@sun.lclark.edu>, rth...@sun.lclark.edu (Ryan Thomas) writes:
>: Ryan Gerrish wrote:
>: >
>: > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
>: > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
>: > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
>: > appreciated...
>: >
>: > -G
>
>flowing through the cab. I know that a toyota will not go through a
>lake. Both from experience...
>
>Also in a hummer with a snorkle.. there was water inside the cab... feet
>and legs were wet. We made it through before the electrical got hit.
>
>Oh yeah, Dante's Peak. Whatever. The headlights in the caddy were also
>still working as it drove down the river fully submerged and rammed the
>burban.. what ever.
>
>--
>Ryan Thomas
>"Why is it not okay for girls, but its okay for boys?"
>"It's called the double-standard, Bobby. Don't knock it, we got the long
>end of the stick on that one."--KOTH
My F350 4x4 made it through water deep enough to be halfway up the
seats (Texas flood of Dec 89) without stalling. I flushed all of the fluids
(had water in the differentials and the transmission). My mother's
Volkswagon bug floated long enough (about 10 seconds) for us to push it
back to shore when she accidentally drove it down the boat ramp into the
lake.
I made it through a flooded low water crossing in a Ford Courier and
watched the Toyota 4x4 behind me float downstream. He managed to point
it downstream and "drive" it to the inside of the curve - he went halfway
up his doors, but his engine died and he had to be towed out. I saw another
Toyota 4x4 accidentally reverse far enough down a boat ramp that the rear
end floated (they always backed it in untill the bed touched the water and
ran a JetSki into it). The woman was frantic (the owner wanted her out of
the truck) - but we helped her get it into 4x4 and she drove it right out. The
seat on that thing was completely under water.
Robert Det...@vnet.ibm.com
David Henley
No Brakes Drake wrote:
> statement. Most vehicles will handle 6-8" with no problems. Once you
> get your hubs wet, the picture changes.
>
> I don't doubt that a TJ could be driven in up to its headlights. But it
> is a risk way beyond that encountered by mortal vehicles :)
>
> Ever see the Jeep class at Orlando's Swamp Buggy Nationals? With
> special prep they run in water OVER the hood. Of course, the occupants
> do not remain dry. Sometimes, the passenger helps by paddling.
>
> Good Luck
> NBD
same words. I wouldn't hesitate to dunk my hubs, but before I go more
than an hour away with specific intentions to 4 wheel, I repack bearings
with new seals and check all other stuff. If I dunk 'em then I repack
when I get back, and if the diffs, tranny, or engine gets dunked, I
change the fluids, too. (Saltwater entering the diffs is sure hell,
though. No single fluid change'll cut it, they need a serious flush or
rebuild.)
C R Wright
In article <3329D8...@flnet.com>, sg...@flnet.com wrote:
> m...@sequent.com wrote:
> >
> > I read all the replies to date, and they all give good advice.
snip
> > the engine). I also use nonconductive grease on various electrical
> > connections such as the battery, starter/solenoid, coil and alternator.
> > I've managed to do ok in water up to 3 feet as long as I took it slow
> > and didn't stall the engine.
> You can go deeper than your fan without too much hassle as long as your
> fan in electric and you hook up a manual switch to turn it off.
The electric fan option works well for me, and with my ancient diesel
engine, the electrical system is optional anyway...
With axle and transmission vents routed up to the intake manifold, I can go
about as deep as the air-breather... which isn't yet on a snorkel...
I suppose with a snorkle and vertical exhaust pipe - I could go until I
started to float off the seat... or drown... ;-O glub glub...
-cw
My apologies for the invalid return address, I was losing the war against
the auto-mailers and SPAM junkies. Mail should be addressed to user:
cw028212 "at" bcm.tmc.edu
Sheldon
m...@sequent.com wrote:
>
> Ryan Gerrish wrote:
> >
> > Hey, anyone know the stock fording (sp?) depth for ANY SUVS, such as
> > 4-runner, explorer, tahoe, ect? Is there a way to estimate, such as
> > saying ant water above a certain part of the engine is bad? Any info is
> > appreciated...
> >
> > -G
>
> the offroading I've done, I've used the simple rule that you can safely
> go as deep as the distance from the ground to the bottom of your fan.
> This can only be done *if* you've taken otehr necessary precautions,
> such as waterproof your distributor (silicon bead around the edge when
> installing the cap), non conductive grease inside spark plug cable ends,
> and diff vent tubes that terminate high enough (i.e. above the tope of
> connections such as the battery, starter/solenoid, coil and alternator.
> I've managed to do ok in water up to 3 feet as long as I took it slow
> and didn't stall the engine.
You can go deeper than your fan without too much hassle as long as your
fan in electric and you hook up a manual switch to turn it off.
I have used this on my truck for a few years and the only thing that
throws water is th pulleys.
Sheldon
Yes also adding grease (wd-40 nudge nudge wink wink) and sealing up
things go a long ways.
Andre Maritz
Jeff Gauvin wrote:
>
> Andre Maritz <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> writes:
> >In a properly insulated engine, the air intake is surely level of danger.
>
> Very true. I've seen first-hand what can happen when an engine ingests
> water. But often there are lower points that will cause an engine to
> stall w/o causing damage (primarily electronics), and other points that
> will cause eventual failure if not seen to immediately. For example: muddy
> water in an alternator can destroy it in short order, same with starter
> motors and solenoids.
>
> And don't forget that radiator fans like to act like propellers in water,
> propelling themselves into your radiator; this will stop you as surely as
> ingesting water. Disconnect them!
Definately, the electrical fan is a special culprit here as it usually
come on at great speed. My vehicle uses a viscious fan so at least I am
safe with regard to that.
>
> >I can not believe that the axle vents represents any problems for reasons:
> >
> >1. They can be moved higher wit relative ease.
>
> True.
>
> >2. They are vents and not intakes.
>
> False. They are just simple tubes, and will let air go either way. They
> equalize pressure to keep the diffs from blowing seals.
OK, my mistake.
>
> >3. If the axles are hot from use, even a broken vent can't allow any
> >water into the axle as the pressure inside will be too high.
>
> Huh? A hot diff dropped into a cold stream will suck air/water in through
> the vent.
Not if you enter slowly, bit like I said, just move them higher to
totally solve the problem. My rear vent is next to my fuel filler cap
and the front one next to the aircleaner intake.
>
> >4. Even if water gets into the axle, this will not present a major
> >problem on a vehicle that undergoes regular maintenance.
>
> False. Water in your diff can destroy bearings in less than a month. How
> often do you check your diffs?
It should be checked directly after submersion. I always check my
diffs, gearboxes, etc within the first two to three days after an
off-road excursion, especially where deep water crossings was neccesary.
>
> All fluids should be check ASAP after deep water crossings and all
> grease-able points should be re-greased (prop-shafts, U-joints, etc.)
True.
>
> Most "modern" vehicles are not designed for deep water fording. The
> Sub-mersible-burban in the movie Dante's peak was a riot (ROFLMAO); unless
> it was a diesel (it wasn't) it couldn't wade like that. It takes more
> than a snorkel to submerge a gasoline engine.
True. Fortunately my Toyota's engine is extremely well insulted, but it
can still not be totally submersed, or rather, I have never tried.
>
> The owner's manual of my '94 Land Rover Defender 90 actually has a
> section on deep water crossing -- very rare in this the era of lawyers.
Mmmm, they are brave!!!
Andre
PS
David Henley wrote:
>
> No Brakes Drake wrote:
> >
> > David Henley wrote:
> > >
> > > No Brakes Drake wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Andre Maritz wrote:
In several other markets (Australia & most African & Central American
nations) Toyota offers factory snorkles on diesel 4x4's. I drove a 4wd
toyota crew cab like this (2.4l. diesel) in Oz. We had hood-height
crossings several times, and never missed a beat. I am curious how the
diffs are vented with these snorkle kits, i.e. does anything vary in
factory setup? Anyone know? I wish they would bring some of those over
here (4dr trucks). One of my favorite vehicles.
Joseph Lukas
> Do the mils all get a snorkel?
snorkeled and had a cut off switch for an electric fan. While keeping
water out of the intake is important let's not forget about keeping the
fan out of the radiator.
--
SIGNED:: Joseph Anthony Lukas
still shopping
born in Pheonix
raised by wolves
dropped on head as a child
Mark Tener
> No they didn't. Most of the Marine and Special Forces units got
> snorkeled and had a cut off switch for an electric fan. While keeping
> water out of the intake is important let's not forget about keeping the
> fan out of the radiator.
Regarding this fan business...ok so find some way to not have the
electric fan going when fording (I can think of several ways...switch,
unplug, fuse) but does anyone know if the belt driven clutch type fan
will plow through the radiator or will the clutch stop it from doing so?
TIA
Mark
Mark Tener
John P Norman wrote:
>
> : Regarding this fan business...ok so find some way to not have the
> : electric fan going when fording (I can think of several ways...switch,
> : unplug, fuse) but does anyone know if the belt driven clutch type fan
> : will plow through the radiator or will the clutch stop it from doing so?
>
> will blow water all over the engine compartment or something else?
>
> John
So am I...I read things saying that supposedly if the fan goes under
water that it will somehow propel its way into the radiator or some such
disaster. I'm not sure how this is possible when the fan is firmly
attached to the engine and the radiator is firmly attached to the front
but there it is...I've read about this being a possibility and thus the
question asking whether a clutch type fan will do this or not. I can
certainly well imagine that the fan would blow water all over everything
but it's the propelling into the radiator that has me concerned.
Thanks
Mark
John P Norman
No Brakes Drake
Mark Tener wrote:
> water that it will somehow propel its way into the radiator or some such
> disaster. I'm not sure how this is possible when the fan is firmly
> attached to the engine and the radiator is firmly attached to the front
> but there it is...I've read about this being a possibility and thus the
> question asking whether a clutch type fan will do this or not. I can
> certainly well imagine that the fan would blow water all over everything
> but it's the propelling into the radiator that has me concerned.
> Thanks
> Mark
Fan blades hitting water can bend/flex into radiator. I don't think a
fan clutch will save you. I've always heard one should loosen fan belt
before entering deep water.
Good Luck
NBD
John P Norman
: So am I...I read things saying that supposedly if the fan goes under
: water that it will somehow propel its way into the radiator or some such
: disaster. I'm not sure how this is possible when the fan is firmly
: attached to the engine and the radiator is firmly attached to the front
: but there it is...I've read about this being a possibility and thus the
: question asking whether a clutch type fan will do this or not. I can
: certainly well imagine that the fan would blow water all over everything
: but it's the propelling into the radiator that has me concerned.
The only thing I could think of would be a lot of resistance to
pulling water through the radiator. I would think your average
radiator would not be ripped apart by a swift flow of water pulling
through it. Ditto for a fan. Anyone care to comment here?
John
Mike Korzeniowski
In article <332CE3...@buysell.com>, ma...@buysell.com wrote:
>John P Norman wrote:
>>
>> : Regarding this fan business...ok so find some way to not have the
>> : electric fan going when fording (I can think of several ways...switch,
>> : unplug, fuse) but does anyone know if the belt driven clutch type fan
>> : will plow through the radiator or will the clutch stop it from doing so?
>>
>> I'm having trouble visualizing this. Are you concerned that the fan
>> will blow water all over the engine compartment or something else?
>>
>> John
>
>water that it will somehow propel its way into the radiator or some such
>disaster. I'm not sure how this is possible when the fan is firmly
>attached to the engine and the radiator is firmly attached to the front
Yes, the fan is attached but the blades are very flexible.
Remember that the blades are curved to move air (or water)
towards the back of the car. If there is enough water, the
fan tries to act like a propeller in a boat. Since the blades
are usually plastic or thin metal, their outside ends will
flex forward towards the radiator. I have seen the results of
this and it's not pretty...
If you have a clutch on your fan you should be OK since the
clutch is supposed to give before the blades start flexing.
Mike
>but there it is...I've read about this being a possibility and thus the
>question asking whether a clutch type fan will do this or not. I can
>certainly well imagine that the fan would blow water all over everything
>but it's the propelling into the radiator that has me concerned.
>Thanks
>Mark
___________________________________________________________________
Mike Korzeniowski Phone: 1-812-378-0281
President / Software Engineer email: ko...@iquest.net
Software Engineering & Technology, Inc.
Columbus, IN USA
Willem-Jan Markerink
In article <5gjjpa$3f1$1...@news.iquest.net>,
ko...@iquest.net (Mike Korzeniowski) wrote:
>Yes, the fan is attached but the blades are very flexible.
>Remember that the blades are curved to move air (or water)
>towards the back of the car. If there is enough water, the
>fan tries to act like a propeller in a boat. Since the blades
>are usually plastic or thin metal, their outside ends will
>flex forward towards the radiator. I have seen the results of
>this and it's not pretty...
>If you have a clutch on your fan you should be OK since the
>clutch is supposed to give before the blades start flexing.
A nice solution to solve this is mounting a circular strip/rod of metal to
the inside of your radiator, so that the tips of the fan have a sliding
surface instead of digging into the radiator.
Tom Fritz
Willem-Jan Markerink (w.j.ma...@a1.nl) wrote:
: In article <5gjjpa$3f1$1...@news.iquest.net>,
: ko...@iquest.net (Mike Korzeniowski) wrote:
<snip>
: >flex forward towards the radiator. I have seen the results of
: >If you have a clutch on your fan you should be OK since the
: >clutch is supposed to give before the blades start flexing.
: A nice solution to solve this is mounting a circular strip/rod of metal to
: the inside of your radiator, so that the tips of the fan have a sliding
: surface instead of digging into the radiator.
Hummers have another solution, our radiator / AC / transmission / transfer
case oil, and power steering are mounted about about 30% angle. The fan
is mounted behind a air box - triangle shape. The fan does not come
close to reaching radiator etc.. parts.
I believe this was done for:
reduce risk of the radiator (and etc) being shot in battle.
reduce the front "foot print", giving the Hummer the wild
steep approach angles.
Looks cool too
--tlf
Andy Dingley
The moving finger of No Brakes Drake <daryl...@asu.edu> having
written:
>Fan blades hitting water can bend/flex into radiator.
Hit deep water with a plastic fan on a viscous clutch and you can rip
the thing clean off !
I don't wade without an electric fan and a cutout switch. The cutout
also puts a warning light on, right next to the temperature gauge.
TXPakRat
How would ford and fan flex affect Toyota's. In Toy's, the fan is a pull
mounted behind the radiator, not a push in front!
TXPakRat
b
True story.
A guy with a Land Rover tried to ford the Platte River (Colorado). Vehicle
was a total loss (it was recovered). Get this, the guy collected on his auto
insurance!
Paul W Harvey
That is the problem. The fan is designed to pull air through the
radiator just like many other trucks. Remember the fan forces
designed to pull air through the radiator also wants to push the fan
blades forward, but since the fan is attached to the motor is can't.
Air, being pretty easy to move compared to bending the plastic or
metal fan, won't cause the fan blades to bend when the fan tries to go
forward. Water, OTOH, being not so easy to move, causes the fan to
want to move forward more than with air. Thing is center axis of the
fan is stall attached to the engine so it can't move, so only the
blades end up flexing forward.
--Paul
Jeff Pethybridge
John P Norman wrote:
>
> : So am I...I read things saying that supposedly if the fan goes under
...snip....
> : certainly well imagine that the fan would blow water all over everything
> : but it's the propelling into the radiator that has me concerned.
>
> The only thing I could think of would be a lot of resistance to
> pulling water through the radiator. I would think your average
> radiator would not be ripped apart by a swift flow of water pulling
> through it. Ditto for a fan. Anyone care to comment here?
>
> John
The fan would try to swim / pull the motor forward, and because the
motor
will not move the blade tips will...... right through the radiator.
Even with the viscous fans if you move slowley into water they will
splash
for some time untill half of the fan is under water.
I got an old viscous fan and pulled the oil drain plug out and drillrd
a
hole for a pin into the inner and outer clutch rings ( ..though the
guts...).
When i get to grill depth water i pull the screw out an the thing free
wheels.
--
_______/\%__________ <-- My Suzuki Sierra (samurai)
Jeff Pethybridge going up a hill from afar.
Technical Consultant,
Desktop System Support, Phone :61 3 54447971
La Trobe University. Bendigo. Mobile: 019 189 195
PO Box 199, Bendigo 3550. Fax :61 3 54447975
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert
In <19970317190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, txpa...@aol.com (TXPakRat) writes:
>How would ford and fan flex affect Toyota's. In Toy's, the fan is a pull
>mounted behind the radiator, not a push in front!
>
>TXPakRat
They all have the fan behind the radiator. The fan blades flex out when
they begin stiking the water. They flex forward into the radiator and/or
backward into the pulleys/belts.
Robert Det...@vnet.ibm.com
Willem-Jan Markerink
In article <19970317190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
txpa...@aol.com (TXPakRat) wrote:
>How would ford and fan flex affect Toyota's. In Toy's, the fan is a pull
>mounted behind the radiator, not a push in front!
>
>TXPakRat
Yep, but water will very quickly flow behind the radiator.
It wants to screw itself forwards, just like an airplane propellor. Give it
enough resistance, and the tips of the blades will bend forward, into the
radiator....
David Henley
fan. I've had good luck with slowly going in causing the fluid clutch
to slow way down and not hit the radiator.
--
--Dave Henley
1988 Chevrolet Sprint 3cyl 4 door
1979 Jeep CJ-7 6cyl 0/2 door soft and hard top
1972 Glastron V-156 Boat w/1965 Mercury 650 4cyl outboard
Deron Hartman
I got a couple of questions maybe someone here can answer for me.
1. I'm thinking of having a snorkel put on my '95 Toyota 4Runner. Will it
increase my fording capabilities or does it just make it safer to enter
deep water?
2. I would like to have an electric fan put on also so I can disconnect it
when entering water. Does anyone here have a Flex-A-Lite Toyota 4x4 Fan on
their truck? If so can it be disconnected easily(without getting out of
the truck) when entering water. They are sold by Performance Products in
California.
3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and gasoline ones
can't?
Jeff Gauvin
Must've been an *OLD* Land Rover! Even completely destroying the engine
on a new LR wouldn't total it (a new "stroker" short block like the JE 4.5
goes for $6500, Genuine Parts engines slightly less).
Had a friend that hydro-locked his 1-day old Jeep Cherokee in Medano Creek
(Great Sand Dunes Nat'l Monument). Cost him $3000 for a new short block and
labor. His insurance did pay, though they typically won't if they *KNOW*
the accident happened while off roading (read into that what you will...)
BTW - I've forded the Platte in my LR (Hackett Gulch). No problems at all,
though admittedly I didn't do it during spring run-off in the deepest
hole I could find. Good way to wash out your frame :-)
--------------------------------
Jeff Gauvin
(firstname...@symbios.com)
*** opinions are my own ***
Willem-Jan Markerink
In article <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>,
"Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> wrote:
>3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and gasoline
>ones can't?
Because diesels have very few electric components, some even none at all.
Disconnect the battery and it still runs happily....8-))
The main problem with diesels is that any water intake is catastrophical. A
gasoline might just stall, you pull it on shore, drain the water out and
could possible drive on. A diesel engine is trash by then, because of the
much higher compression, which will wreck the piston, perhaps even
catapulting it through the cylinder wall.
Once you have a snorkel on a diesel, you can practially go submarining. I
know a guy with a snorkeled TLC HDJ-80 who had his rear end go floating,
with only his front wheels grabbing. And this was with a heavily modified
Cruiser, empty weight 3000kg (don't ask, only crazy Aussies
understand....;-))
Another benefit of diesels is the higher exhaust pressure; you can stall a
gasoline by closing the exhaust, but you'll never succeed doing this with a
diesel. Not sure at what depths this is going to be a critical difference
though. Might only apply when starting in water.
Another very important issue in case of a manual transmission: avoid using
your clutch by all means. It is in direct contact with water, and if dirty
water is allowed inbetween flywheel and clutch, it will slip badly.
One of the few advantages of an auto....;-))
(I have been pondering about pressurizing the bell housing....Unimog's even
have pressurized headlights(!))
Tom Fritz
Willem-Jan Markerink (w.j.ma...@a1.nl) wrote:
: In article <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>,
: "Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> wrote:
: >3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and gasoline
: >ones can't?
: Because diesels have very few electric components, some even none at all.
: Disconnect the battery and it still runs happily....8-))
: The main problem with diesels is that any water intake is catastrophical. A
: gasoline might just stall, you pull it on shore, drain the water out and
: could possible drive on. A diesel engine is trash by then, because of the
: much higher compression, which will wreck the piston, perhaps even
: catapulting it through the cylinder wall.
Horse Hockey! I drowned my 1996 Turbo Diesel Hummer Wagon
(http://www.isp.net/~t5150/home.html) and a few nice people
helped me drag it to shore (2 toys and 1 Int. Scout). I drained
the engine of the 1/2 gallon of water. Put it back together,
and it fired right up. The Park Ranger said it was the first
time that he is ever seen someone drive home from that water
trap. Now I have an Air Intake "snorkle" but still the to add
the Central Vent System's "Snorkle tube" and other minor items.
Just because you have a fresh air intake tube for your engine, does
not mean you can handle deep water. (Even on a Hummer)
The exhaust gas should also have a "snorkle" even though the
Hummer has one large loop to help protect from the water
going up the pipe.
Most of the Electronics are water proof on a Hummer, but I
don't think that is true for your average Truck - Jeep.
--tlf
Jeff Gauvin
In <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>, "Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> writes:
>I got a couple of questions maybe someone here can answer for me.
>1. I'm thinking of having a snorkel put on my '95 Toyota 4Runner. Will it
>increase my fording capabilities or does it just make it safer to enter
>deep water?
Yes and no. The Toyota's air intake is behind the left headlight (at least it
was on my '92), a little too low for my tastes -- a good bow wave and you'll
drown the engine (I moistened the air cleaner on my '88 Toy P.U. once, stalled
the engine but didn't hydro-lock). A snorkel will definitely help here. But
"technically" the max fording depth is lower than your headlights for other
reasons. So for careful fording a snorkel probably won't help much, but it
*will* save your engine during slighly more exuberant deep water crossings.
>2. I would like to have an electric fan put on also so I can disconnect it
>when entering water. Does anyone here have a Flex-A-Lite Toyota 4x4 Fan on
>their truck? If so can it be disconnected easily(without getting out of
>the truck) when entering water. They are sold by Performance Products in
>California.
Can't help here.
>3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and gasoline ones
>can't?
Primarily ignition system differences. High voltages and water don't mix.
Willem-Jan Markerink
Yes, Toyota does offer factory snorkels.
But the ones I saw on 80 and 75 series were darn close to a chimney.
Not a round cyclone filter, but a squarish one.
Gadawful ugly....8-))
Aftermarket looks much nicer, Safari snorkels (Oz) is the main brand AFAIK.
George Shepherd
Actually gasoline engines can run under water just fine-wwII jeeps had an
underwater kit.
Willem-Jan Markerink <w.j.ma...@a1.nl> wrote in article
<5gonrg$6rr$1...@news.a1.nl>...
> In article <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>,
Tom Fritz
George Shepherd (te...@iamerica.net) wrote:
: Actually gasoline engines can run under water just fine-wwII jeeps had an
: underwater kit.
Yes they did have one... and they poured heavy rubber over the electronics
and other parts. The problem is, if he was to do that with his coil
and alt. it might cook from getting too hot.
--tlf
Torsten Hoff
That may be, but today's engines have far more electrical components than
that old Willy's did. You are correct, of course, in telling us not to
generalize...
Regards,
Torsten Hoff
th...@symantec.com
(The views and opinions expressed are my own, and
should not be construed as representing those of
Symantec Corporation)
George Shepherd <te...@iamerica.net> wrote in article
<01bc3535$a0c90a40$11fdadcd@brittany>...
> Actually gasoline engines can run under water just fine-wwII jeeps had an
> underwater kit.
>
Doccers
In <01bc3535$a0c90a40$11fdadcd@brittany> "George Shepherd"
<te...@iamerica.net> writes:
>
>Actually gasoline engines can run under water just fine-wwII jeeps had
an
>underwater kit.
>
>Willem-Jan Markerink <w.j.ma...@a1.nl> wrote in article
><5gonrg$6rr$1...@news.a1.nl>...
>> In article <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>,
>> "Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> wrote:
>>
>> >3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and
gasoline
>> >ones can't?
>>
>
Diesel's probobly fare worse than gas underwater....
If water gets into a Gas engine, it will probobly stall, in which
case you have to dry the engine. (a bit complex to do)
If water gets into a Diesel engine, it will be destroyed, In which
case you have to buy a new engine. (Not complex, but if your wallet's
that fat, I envy you.)
Jerry Bransford
Jeff Gauvin wrote:
>
> In <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>, "Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> writes:
> >I got a couple of questions maybe someone here can answer for me.
> >1. I'm thinking of having a snorkel put on my '95 Toyota 4Runner. Will it
> >increase my fording capabilities or does it just make it safer to enter
> >deep water?
>
> Yes and no. The Toyota's air intake is behind the left headlight (at least it
> was on my '92), a little too low for my tastes -- a good bow wave and you'll
> drown the engine (I moistened the air cleaner on my '88 Toy P.U. once, stalled
> the engine but didn't hydro-lock). A snorkel will definitely help here. But
> "technically" the max fording depth is lower than your headlights for other
> reasons. So for careful fording a snorkel probably won't help much, but it
> *will* save your engine during slighly more exuberant deep water crossings.
>
> >2. I would like to have an electric fan put on also so I can disconnect it
> >when entering water. Does anyone here have a Flex-A-Lite Toyota 4x4 Fan on
> >their truck? If so can it be disconnected easily(without getting out of
> >the truck) when entering water. They are sold by Performance Products in
> >California.
>
> Can't help here.
>
> >can't?
>
That's for sure. Actually, a diesel engine has no ignition system at
all, other than the extremely high compression in the combustion chamber
that a diesel engine uses to ignite the diesel fuel. They do have a
'glow-plug' that is used to initially ignite the diesel air-fuel mixture
when the engine is cold and first started but once started, the
glow-plug is not used any more. A diesel doesn't have a carburetor
either, all diesel engines (that I'm aware of) are fuel injected.
--
NOTE: To reply, remove the "NOSPAM" from my email address.
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, C.A.P., KC6TAY
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
Hmsmoke
go look up the mitaryly speck on dep water fast answer is don't get the
alt wet or water in the engine s spark plugs are next ther wet you dont
run how tight is the tranmission water kills aotu fast same for any
parts that run in oil as it mixes it makes nasty stuff
Mark Whatley
John P Norman wrote:
>
> : Regarding this fan business...ok so find some way to not have the
> : electric fan going when fording (I can think of several ways...switch,
> : unplug, fuse) but does anyone know if the belt driven clutch type fan
> : will plow through the radiator or will the clutch stop it from doing so?
>
> I'm having trouble visualizing this. Are you concerned that the fan
> will blow water all over the engine compartment or something else?
Unless you have one of the OLD heavy steel plate fans like found on
early Land Cruisers and '50s vintage american rigs, a belt driven fan
will flex and deform when it is run in water. The water is of course
haevier and denser than air, and therefore harder to move. The fan bends
forward at the ouside edge as it attempts to pull the water by it. This
often results in the fan impacting the radiator, with less than fun
results.
A clutch fan is less prone to this syndrone, but since they are
usually of lighter construcion, they will flex easier, and may still
flex enough to cause damage, even though the clutch limits the amount of
toeque that can be trasfered to'through the fan.
Mark...
Mark Whatley
Willem-Jan Markerink wrote:
>
> In article <01bc33f7$9768d5a0$9143...@Dhartman.brooksdata.net>,
> "Deron Hartman" <alt...@brooksdata.net> wrote:
>
> >3. Can somone tell why diesel engines can run under water and gasoline
> >ones can't?
Gasoline engines can do so also. You just have to waterproof the
ignition systems.
Gas or deisel, it still has to have a way to breath air.
> The main problem with diesels is that any water intake is catastrophical. A
> gasoline might just stall, you pull it on shore, drain the water out and
> could possible drive on. A diesel engine is trash by then, because of the
> much higher compression, which will wreck the piston, perhaps even
> catapulting it through the cylinder wall.
Unless it is a very slow engine speed incident, and you manage to
shut things down quickly, a gasoline engine has the same weakness. Water
in the cylinder will berak things. Gas or deisel.
> Once you have a snorkel on a diesel, you can practially go submarining. I
> know a guy with a snorkeled TLC HDJ-80 who had his rear end go floating,
> with only his front wheels grabbing.
Been there, done it, gas or deisel, makes no difference.
> Another benefit of diesels is the higher exhaust pressure; you can stall a
> gasoline by closing the exhaust, but you'll never succeed doing this with a
> diesel. Not sure at what depths this is going to be a critical difference
> though. Might only apply when starting in water.
Unless you are going to submerge the rig under a few meters of water,
this won't matter. Either design can allow water up the tailpie and into
the engine is you shut it off or stall it in deep water (higher than the
combustion chambers). A submerged tailpie will not of itself prevent a
gas engine from starting.
Mark...
---------
Modern society is the bane of evolution... Stupidity is no longer fatal.
Tread lightly always, but never Run Scared.
Willem-Jan Markerink
In article <33457A...@akcache.com>,
Mark Whatley <cru...@akcache.com> wrote:
>> The main problem with diesels is that any water intake is
catastrophical. A
>> gasoline might just stall, you pull it on shore, drain the water out and
>> could possible drive on. A diesel engine is trash by then, because of
the
>> much higher compression, which will wreck the piston, perhaps even
>> catapulting it through the cylinder wall.
>
> Unless it is a very slow engine speed incident, and you manage to
>shut things down quickly, a gasoline engine has the same weakness. Water
>in the cylinder will berak things. Gas or deisel.
But given a minor blurp of water, the higher compression ratio of diesel is
more likely to wreck things beyond repair than gasoline.
Only 100% water instead of air will cause a *similar* catastrophe.
The higher idle torque of diesel might also aggrevate things. It does take
more to stall a diesel than a gasoline....
>> Once you have a snorkel on a diesel, you can practially go submarining.
I
>> know a guy with a snorkeled TLC HDJ-80 who had his rear end go floating,
>> with only his front wheels grabbing.
>
> Been there, done it, gas or deisel, makes no difference.
You need a snorkel on both, but the gasoline will require more waterproof
measurements....
>> Another benefit of diesels is the higher exhaust pressure; you can stall
a
>> gasoline by closing the exhaust, but you'll never succeed doing this
with a
>> diesel. Not sure at what depths this is going to be a critical
difference
>> though. Might only apply when starting in water.
>
> Unless you are going to submerge the rig under a few meters of water,
>this won't matter. Either design can allow water up the tailpie and into
>the engine is you shut it off or stall it in deep water (higher than the
>combustion chambers). A submerged tailpie will not of itself prevent a
>gas engine from starting.
Not sure where this argument comes from....perhaps older gasoline cars had
problems with it, where similar diesels didn't.
Might make a difference backing up into a wall of thick mud....8-))