Jeep Wrangler vs. Land Rover Defender
Hrastow
Land Rover Defender 90 Td5 (with ABS+ETC) especially in terms of Off-Road
capabilities (mud, snow, rain, water). Wrangler is much better On-Road, for
sure, but I want to know what are the most significant differences between
Wrangler part-time 4WD and Defender full-time 4WD (with central locking
differential) and how are both of them useable Off-Road.
Please, no "I own XYZ so XYZ is better" style comparisions :-)
Best regards.
John A. Mooney
"Hrastow" <hra...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:9cjh5a$5l10$1...@as121.tel.hr...
Jerry Bransford
similar offroad abilities. You'll find for more accessories and offroad
build-up items for the TJ though.
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL KC6TAY
The Zen Hotdog... make me one with everything!
Geezer Jeep: http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/
Land Rover
We have really got to appreciate the value of full time 4WD. You never know,
whilst onroad (or offroad) what awaits you around the next corner (water,
sand, mud etc.) that having full time 4WD would prevent a potential loss of
control.
Off road it may be down to driver ability. However having just done a
gruelling 4WD course in my LR with ETC I was truely amazed. The other
defender with no ETC got stuck intentionally with 2 wheels (fron left and
rear right)off the ground but with ETC my LR having been put into the same
stuck position climbed out once the ETC worked out which wheels to brake and
which to apply power to. Unless the Jeep has a rear diff lock it would also
get stuck in this situation. With ETC if only 1 wheel is touching the ground
the car will still drive.
Good luck with your decision.
"Jerry Bransford" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AED8014...@home.com...
Lennie Nelson
Real jeeps are built, not bought.
Hrastow wrote:
--
Lennie Nelson
lenn...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~lennie76
95 YJ 2.5L 5speed, 2.5" Pro Comp Lift, 31x10.5 Pro Comp MT's, Detroit EZ-Locker
rear, RE Quick Disco's and much much more to come.
Anytime someone in SoCal is going out, I'd love to tag along
If you want to reply to a message, lose the "."
Goat Crapp
:)
>Equip them similarly with lockers, same tires, etc. and they have very
>similar offroad abilities. You'll find for more accessories and offroad
>build-up items for the TJ though.
>
>Jerry
>
-Steve 98TJ 4.0L 31" a/t's swybar disc's (called a wrench lol)
infinity reference 4x6, 6.5, RF punch xlc 10", & xa6040lx amp
"When i find her, I'll make her immortal so i can screw her- and then KILL her
every hour of every day for eternity!" - fakk2
will
I'll be willing to bet for a lot less(here in the states anyway) you could
build a very capable
Wrangler and still pocket some cash.
"Land Rover" <worst4...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
news:3aed8a3d$0$2...@hades.is.co.za...
Hrastow
I have read many complaints about Defender (and other Land Rover cars)
regarding reliability. There is some guy out there who went to the service
every 2-3 weeks during the warranty period and there are some users with
much more disastereous experiences. After all I have read and heard I will
be very scary to buy and drive this car. I tried to find such kind of
problems with Jeep Wrangler and I cannot. From the users point of view this
vehicle is very reliable and durable and this is the first reason I'll go
for an Wrangler. Some guys have reported broken axles because they were
crawling over the large rocks but this is not what I have intention to do. I
want to drive about 60% on-road and 40% off-road.
The second reason is the price: both of them are expensive in my country but
I could buy the new black Wrangler 4.0 Sahara (with ABS, Dual Top, Full
Doors, Trac-Lok, etc.) for 46879 DM (21700 USD) after I deduct the tax
because I am buying it for my company. I think this is a very good deal. The
first Defender 90 Td5 County Station Wagon with similar equipment would cost
me 61319 DM (28400 USD) which is 30% more and I still haven't got air bags,
radio, 5 speakers, removable top and many other standard features on Sahara.
Not to speek for the power, speed and acceleration on Sahara. Yes, Defender
has got full-time 4WD and ETC but I think I could live without this.
So, my choice woud be Wrangler, definately. For now, it is 100% what I have
been looking for. Maybe I will make some upgrade on it one day, who knows. I
have been thinking about replacing Command-Trac part-time 4WD transfer case
with Selec-Trac full-time 4WD but I don't know if it is possible. Any
oppinions? Perhaps I should wait for a new Liberty?
Best regards.
Bri
> Thanks for all of you who gave your oppinions.
>
> I have read many complaints about Defender (and other Land Rover cars)
> regarding reliability. There is some guy out there who went to the service
> every 2-3 weeks during the warranty period and there are some users with
> much more disastereous experiences.
I have heard these "horror" stories too. They are exaggerated and an
extremely small fraction of land rover owners.
However... I would say that my 1995 Disco takes more maintenance then my
1993 Wrangler.
> After all I have read and heard I will
> be very scary to buy and drive this car. I tried to find such kind of
> problems with Jeep Wrangler and I cannot. From the users point of view
this
> vehicle is very reliable and durable and this is the first reason I'll go
> for an Wrangler. Some guys have reported broken axles because they were
> crawling over the large rocks but this is not what I have intention to do.
I
> want to drive about 60% on-road and 40% off-road.
How difficult are the 40%? Dirt roads? 40% is a ton! That means that in
the first 20k miles you are going to drive 8000 off road.
I doubt that you do this much unless you live in the sticks and/or are a
hard core wheeler/camper/rancher.
>
> The second reason is the price: both of them are expensive in my country
but
> I could buy the new black Wrangler 4.0 Sahara (with ABS, Dual Top, Full
> Doors, Trac-Lok, etc.) for 46879 DM (21700 USD) after I deduct the tax
> because I am buying it for my company. I think this is a very good deal.
The
> first Defender 90 Td5 County Station Wagon with similar equipment would
cost
> me 61319 DM (28400 USD) which is 30% more and I still haven't got air
bags,
> radio, 5 speakers, removable top and many other standard features on
Sahara.
Yep, but no need to add heavy axles or lift and many other things. The D90
has more than 30% more stuff.
> Not to speek for the power, speed and acceleration on Sahara. Yes,
Defender
> has got full-time 4WD and ETC but I think I could live without this.
Yep, the only reason to get D90 is if you are gonna really have fun in it.
>
> So, my choice woud be Wrangler, definately. For now, it is 100% what I
have
> been looking for. Maybe I will make some upgrade on it one day, who knows.
I
> have been thinking about replacing Command-Trac part-time 4WD transfer
case
> with Selec-Trac full-time 4WD but I don't know if it is possible. Any
> oppinions? Perhaps I should wait for a new Liberty?
My opinion is that if you are really going to add these things, get the D90
instead.
Bri
T01928837465
ever being in the shop. This is a superb offroad vehicle. Obviously alot more
expensive
here in the states, but if you're gonna pay 21k (lol)for a Wrangler, I'd go for
a Defender at 28K. Based on the amount of offroad driving you are planning on I
think you'll really get alot more enjoyment out of it.
Bryan
James Henry
wheel with a guy who has a 96 D90. On the road, my truck (76 FJ40) is in
the shop more often (though, I think it has more to do with my truck being
25 years old, with a line of previous owners who didn't do the proper
maintenance, and these things are jumping up and biting me in the ass)
However, off road, I have never experienced any breakage whatsoever.
He has a box of spare axle half shafts, and all tools necessary to swap
them, as he breaks them like no other (I still have the stock 76
birfields!). He has gotten so good at swapping them he can do it in under 30
minutes.
That's about the only problem I have seen with it. Also, he usually pulls
the fuse on the ECT because that has gotten him in more trouble with it than
without it.
Personally, if I lived outside of the US, I would look at the 70 series Land
Cruiser. Convertable, short wheel base, proven drivetrains, factory lockers,
etc.
Just my 2 pfennig
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
TLCA # 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
"You can have my Land Cruiser when you CUT my COLD DEAD fingers from the
steering wheel!"
"T01928837465" <t01928...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20010501044717...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Sean Conolly
> the car will still drive.
Drive it? Hell, just stand it on one wheel and I'll be impressed!
<bg> Sean
Robert W. Current
* Wranglers cost a lot less. 1 point for the Jeep
* Defenders have a larger payload, and towing capacity. 1 point for LR.
Result, Tie.
Not exactly, of course, but they are very similar vehicles for off road
ability. IMHO, it's only which of the two above features is more
important to you that matters.
Just my 2 cents...
Rob C.
http://rob.current.nu
Jaan Peets
the Defender wins. That being said, modifications to the Wrangler seem to be
easy and plentiful.
The major problem with stock Defenders is that when the opposite diagonal
wheels are in the air, you have no locomotion. This can be fixed with a
locker in one or both axles.
It all depends on what kind of off-roading you intend to do, and how much
customizing you are willing to do. If you are in North America, you're
probably better off with the Jeep, as Defender bits are scarce and
expensive. Particularly true if you want ot do extreme stuff. In terms of
bang for the buck, the Jeep wins hands down, considering the absurd prices
for US Defenders (i.e $30-60K). I own a 110 (early Defender, so to speak)
and am so far quite impressed with it, and felt that the Wrangler was
problematic primarily due to the absence of useful cargo space.
Jaan
"Hrastow" <hra...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:9cjh5a$5l10$1...@as121.tel.hr...
Goat Crapp
>How difficult are the 40%? Dirt roads? 40% is a ton! That means that in
>the first 20k miles you are going to drive 8000 off road.
maybe he means time-wise ? :) i mean then the 40% number becomes more
reasonable... i mean an offroading venture can take a whole day, time wise.
mar...@mtpi7115.kpn.com
> Thanks for all of you who gave your oppinions.
> So, my choice woud be Wrangler, definately. For now, it is 100% what I have
> been looking for. Maybe I will make some upgrade on it one day, who knows. I
> have been thinking about replacing Command-Trac part-time 4WD transfer case
> with Selec-Trac full-time 4WD but I don't know if it is possible. Any
> oppinions? Perhaps I should wait for a new Liberty?
The gearboxhange can be done. I just read in rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys that
someone had it done.
About the liberty; it replaces the Cherokee, not the Wrangler. Cherokee owners
are afraid that the Liberty is less of an offroader so for you the difference will
be even bigger.
I hope this helps,
Martin
> Best regards.
--
Tin will not rust or give in but melts directly when heated =B-)
Bri
spend 40% off road.
The absolute most I have done off road in one year is 5k miles.
Bri
Goat Crapp <goat...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010502005403...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Bri
Robert W. Current <r...@current.nu> wrote in message
news:3AEF5DEF...@current.nu...
> To be honest, I only see two large factors:
>
> * Wranglers cost a lot less. 1 point for the Jeep
> * Defenders have a larger payload, and towing capacity. 1 point for LR.
>
> Result, Tie.
>
> Not exactly, of course, but they are very similar vehicles for off road
> ability. IMHO, it's only which of the two above features is more
> important to you that matters.
They are similar, but not "very similar".
Cost is misleading since you need to do a lot to the jeep to make it on par
with the D90. However in the states a D90 is now about 40k USD. A HUGE
price and likely more then the upgrades would cost on the jeep. In other
countries where the D90 is still imported this problem does not exist.
D90 comes with larger tires, longer wheel base and heavier axles.
I am pretty sure that stock articulation is much better on the D90.
These things make a really big difference.
James Henry
Is the current iteration of the Jeep Wrangler (TJ? YJ? NJ? I can't keep up
with all these odd designations!) using leaf springs or coil springs?
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
TLCA # 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
"You can have my Land Cruiser when you CUT my COLD DEAD fingers from the
steering wheel!"
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:y1VH6.1740$Rm1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jerry Bransford
Nope, it doesn't stand for anything like the old CJ designation did.
Jerry
--
Frank Morris
The TJ has coils all around.
Frank X. Morris
James H.
with locking differentials.
--
-James B. Henry
-Salt Lake City, Utah
-76 FJ40
-TLCA# 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
_____________________________________________________________
"All your base are belong to us!"
"Jaan Peets" <jpe...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:R5KH6.24003$TW.1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Frank Morris
I thought TJ was in honor of that great city just south of the border
LOL (flame material?¿)
Frank X. Morris
James Henry
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
"Frank Morris" <Sulk...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26527-3A...@storefull-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Mike Romain
So if a MJ was a Military Jeep and a DJ was a Dispatch Jeep, and a CJ
was a Civilian Jeep...
Then maybe a YJ is a Yuppie Jeep and a TJ is a Trendy Jeep....
LOL!
Mike (running and ducking for cover)
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
88 Cherokee 235 AT's
Build and Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:
(Updated 04/03/01 with April Fools Day '01 Winter Run)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1161190
James Henry
*remembers the 2001 Wrangler Sahara with broken axle holding up the trail
last weekend *
And just to show I am a good sport
*goes back to repairing a busted birfield*
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
TLCA # 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
"You can have my Land Cruiser when you CUT my COLD DEAD fingers from the
steering wheel!"
"Mike Romain" <rom...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3AF17DF9...@sympatico.ca...
J5
range with 70k plus miles on it). Take a new TJ (with a 44 rear), throw in
lockers, coil spacers and 32" tires and pocket the extra 4k. Or buy a used
TJ with 70k plus miles, throw in the same equipment and pocket the extra 9k.
My .02
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"T01928837465" <t01928...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20010501044717...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Joe Schlatter
25,000, period. The Defender 90 would be my choice for capability if money was
no object, yes even over the Hummer because it is too big to go on serious
trails.
The Defender has a ton of aftermarket stuff available, and several hardcore
shops are devoted to nothing but Defenders. If you have the 35K plus to spend,
do it, you'll never regret it.
MKloepster
>25,000, period.
They are kind of an awful experience on the road (lived with a girl who had
one--several friends as well). They are squirrely as hell, bounce like crazy
because of the short wheelbase, are noisy, and the tops usually stink. They
are damn good on the trail though. My $.02
___________________________________________________________________
Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
___________________________________________________________________
Jerry Bransford
>
> >The Wrangler, and I do have one, is the best on and off-raod vehicle UNDER
> >25,000, period.
>
> They are kind of an awful experience on the road (lived with a girl who had
> one--several friends as well). They are squirrely as hell, bounce like crazy
> because of the short wheelbase, are noisy, and the tops usually stink. They
> are damn good on the trail though. My $.02
That's outdated info. 1997 and newer Wranglers ride much like a car
since going to the all coil-spring suspension.
Jerry
Leo Russ
Landcruiser). Otherwise, both of your options are pieces of junk from
dependability point of veiw, Rover being the worst there is (can be compared
with Jaguar). I've seen them 3-4 years old with 40-50k on the odometer with
as as many as 18(!) simultaneous breakdowns. As far as I am concerned,
potential abilities fade when a vehicle is being towed... There is a banner
at the repair shop of one of the Rover dealerships: "Rover's motto: "If it
ain't leaking, it's empty". At the same dealership, one of the mechanics
bought a used Rover and ordered custom plates "ITS JUNK". Anything else you
need to know?
Jeep is significantly cheaper and probably better only because it's hard to
get any worse. Also, it's cheaper (but by no means cheap) to fix which is
importatnt when needed on a weekly basis.
Good luck
"Hrastow" <hra...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:9cjh5a$5l10$1...@as121.tel.hr...
will
> ain't leaking, it's empty". At the same dealership, one of the mechanics
> bought a used Rover and ordered custom plates "ITS JUNK".
LMAO!!
MKloepster
>since going to the all coil-spring suspension.
>
I think the GF's was a 97. Coil springs or no, it sucked on the road.
Probably very good as compared to older jeeps though.
MKloepster
>get any worse. Also, it's cheaper (but by no means cheap) to fix which is
>importatnt when needed on a weekly basis.
>Good luck
>
I didn't know Rovers were seen as such POS. Jeep? Well, we've all heard them
called "Cheaps," "Heaps," and who can forget: "JEEP--just empty every pocket."
Last straw for me was when an acquaintance who worked at a Jeep dealer's
service department warned me off; that was the same day my own mechanics
suggested I look at a different make (went Japanese and love it). That said, a
lot of people are very happy with their jeeps. I just didn't want reliability
to even be a concern with my new vehicle. It isn't.
Jerry Bransford
and with 98,000 miles on it, it had a cracked exaust manifold taken care
of under warranty, but no other problems. You non-Jeep owners have no
idea what Jeeps are like, you just spread inuendos from what your Toyota
buddies say.
Jerry
--
Leo Russ
like "My grandfather had driven an olds (or a jeep or a caddy or a ford...)
for five hundred thousand miles with no problems whatsoever..." is an
outright lie - just an exaggeration based on "impression". When I ask "how
about transmissions?" "Ya, every now and then", "AC?" - "Ya, every summer
needed to be recharged while every couple of years or so needed compressor,
evaporator and condenser", "Starter, water pump, alternator, window motors
and switches, lock actuators?" "Ya... But all this is minor stuff". When I'm
forced to take a side, my own eyes win. I've worked with every single set of
wheels on the road for 13 years, about 1500 - 2000 per year went through my
hands, so I have some data to base my opinion on. Also, I have no personal
interest or ego to protect. Want a jeep - OK by me except it's not a
comforting feeling when you are driving next to me. Also, you burn three
times as much gas as I do (and pollute at the same proportion) which is a
midemeanor if not a crime. But again, if making someone else (dealer, for
example) rich is your vision of happiness...
"Jerry Bransford" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AF59AAB...@home.com...
Goat Crapp
:P
-Jeepin Goatcrapp
Goat Crapp
>Probably very good as compared to older jeeps though.
>
heh well ONE year can make a huge difference - if it was a year earlier (well
technically - no 96 wranglers, but the 95's were being sold into the 96 model
year as new while they set up for the release of the TJ (97 up)
i rode in a friend's 95, and theres a night and day difference compared to my
(then) 97
i have a 98 now (mechanically the same just a few small differnces between iyt
and a 97) and the ride is great - i mean dont get me wrong its not like my
dad's sedan, but the best riding truck i've been in.
Leo Russ
> > Thanks for all of you who gave your oppinions.
> >
> > regarding reliability. There is some guy out there who went to the
service
> > every 2-3 weeks during the warranty period and there are some users with
> > much more disastereous experiences.
>
> I have heard these "horror" stories too. They are exaggerated and an
> extremely small fraction of land rover owners.
No they are not!
>
> However... I would say that my 1995 Disco takes more maintenance then my
> 1993 Wrangler.
>
> > After all I have read and heard I will
> > be very scary to buy and drive this car. I tried to find such kind of
> > problems with Jeep Wrangler and I cannot. From the users point of view
> this
> > vehicle is very reliable and durable and this is the first reason I'll
go
> > for an Wrangler. Some guys have reported broken axles because they were
> > crawling over the large rocks but this is not what I have intention to
do.
> I
> > want to drive about 60% on-road and 40% off-road.
>
> How difficult are the 40%? Dirt roads? 40% is a ton! That means that in
> the first 20k miles you are going to drive 8000 off road.
>
> I doubt that you do this much unless you live in the sticks and/or are a
> hard core wheeler/camper/rancher.
>
> >
> > The second reason is the price: both of them are expensive in my country
> but
> > I could buy the new black Wrangler 4.0 Sahara (with ABS, Dual Top, Full
> > Doors, Trac-Lok, etc.) for 46879 DM (21700 USD) after I deduct the tax
> > because I am buying it for my company. I think this is a very good deal.
> The
> > first Defender 90 Td5 County Station Wagon with similar equipment would
> cost
> > me 61319 DM (28400 USD) which is 30% more and I still haven't got air
> bags,
> > radio, 5 speakers, removable top and many other standard features on
> Sahara.
>
> Yep, but no need to add heavy axles or lift and many other things. The
D90
> has more than 30% more stuff.
>
> > Not to speek for the power, speed and acceleration on Sahara. Yes,
> Defender
> > has got full-time 4WD and ETC but I think I could live without this.
>
> Yep, the only reason to get D90 is if you are gonna really have fun in
it.
>
> >
> > So, my choice woud be Wrangler, definately. For now, it is 100% what I
> have
> > been looking for. Maybe I will make some upgrade on it one day, who
knows.
> I
> > have been thinking about replacing Command-Trac part-time 4WD transfer
> case
> > with Selec-Trac full-time 4WD but I don't know if it is possible. Any
> > oppinions? Perhaps I should wait for a new Liberty?
>
> My opinion is that if you are really going to add these things, get the
D90
> instead.
>
> Bri
>
>
Leo Russ
"John A. Mooney" <jamo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:%bfH6.48364$IJ1.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> In the final analysis, it is the driver's abilities that count most.
Excellent point!
>
>
> "Hrastow" <hra...@excite.com> wrote in message
will
They sold theirs. You know whats really said, is seeing all the Service
Techs at a
"Major" Seattle area dealer drive to work. Only 1 (ONE) drives a Jeep,
and its only half jeep at that, it's a CJ-8,(chev-V-8/9"rear/60front/Big 'ol
tires......
Will
> Jerry Bransford" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AF59AAB...@home.com...
J5
job and that's why they're there, not becuase of a certain love for a car.
It's a job. Everyone I've talked to (my jeep buddies) rave about their
rigs. Not sure who those buddies are. Maybe they just don't think you fit
into the Jeep "mold" would be my guess :)
j5 (who I guess only owns 1/3 a jeep)
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"will" <wil...@yahoo.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:ixoJ6.207$KV5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
William Moore
that my TJ uses (I get 18 mpg on the highway, 15 around town, and that
is in spite of the 3 inch lift and 33" tires). Not too many 4x4's that get
54 mpg highway and 45 mpg city. Pot calling the kettle black on the
exaggeration...
As far as repairs go, my TJ has had only one - a catalytic converter replaced
under warrantee (for a rattle) at 35K miles. The 92 Cherokee I used to have
had zero repairs in the 72K miles I drove it.
Regards,
Bill Moore
97 Jeep Wrangler (TJ) Sport
99 Dodge Durango SLT 4WD
01 Honda Sportrax 250EX
James H.
thefirst and the best'
However, I have been 4 wheeling with people in Jeeps (never a TJ, but pretty
much everything else, eg NJ, YJ, CJ etc)
I have also been 4 wheeling with friends in Land Cruisers. And I went into
all these experiences thinking that Jeeps were better. I don't think they
are any better any more.
I have never had to walk home when 4 wheeling with my Land Cruiser buddies.
I can not say that about the Jeeps, I have been stranded no less than 4
times by Jeeps that broke, and with the type of 4 wheeling I like to do,
walking home is simply not an option.
When the time came to buy my 4x4, I thought long and hard about my
experience with all the vehicles I have been in, and made my decision.
--
-James H.
-76 FJ40
-TLCA# 11233
"Jerry Bransford" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AF59AAB...@home.com...
Goat Crapp
James H.
The first iteration of the Wrangler, or was it YJ for a long time then TJ
???
I know that the first wrangler was a round headlight (don't quote me) then
came the square head lights, then the round ones again...
--
-James H.
-76 FJ40
comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010507160055...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
Jerry Bransford
war. CJ stood for Civilian Jeep and it was not a Wrangler, just a CJ
Jeep. Then came the first YJ Wrangler, which was square headlighted.
Then came the '97 TJ Wrangler with round headlights again.
--
No Way!
My 1989 90 County Station Wagon V8 has been totally reliable, is used
seriously off-road two or three times per month and as it is not fitted with
anti-roll (sway bars) it has amazing axle artic.
I can't understand why LR's seem to be so unreliable in the US, perhaps it's
because they are marketed as expensive toys rather than working vehicles and
so expectations are set too high.
Anyway, it makes me laugh when I hear them described as expensive when
decent usable Defenders start at about $3500 here in the UK. Early
Discoverys from around 1989 are $4500 or so and early two door Range Rovers
in reasonable condition from 1970 to 1975 start at about $400.
Julian.
"Jerry Bransford" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AF706B0...@home.com...
will
BUT even L$4500 is only US$6400...
MKloepster
>into the Jeep "mold" would be my guess
Ah yes, go to your nearest Jeep dealer and buy that "instant outdoor" image....
J5
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"MKloepster" <mkloe...@aol.compost.bin> wrote in message
news:20010509001512...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
MB
> Funny, my 97 TJ has taken more offroad abuse than any 1000 4x4 trucks
> and with 98,000 miles on it, it had a cracked exaust manifold taken care
> of under warranty, but no other problems. You non-Jeep owners have no
> idea what Jeeps are like, you just spread inuendos from what your Toyota
> buddies say.
Uhm, 100,000 miles isn't a lot, is it? Eg, not a single one of the
about 50 vehicles in the local Land Cruiser club over here is that
new or with that few miles behind it :). Not even near.
<http://www.slck.net/jasenet.html>
MB
Douglas Gavilanes
> > Maybe they just don't think you fit
> >into the Jeep "mold" would be my guess
>
> Ah yes, go to your nearest Jeep dealer and buy that "instant outdoor" image....
Isn't that what Land Rover is selling in their 30 minute national infomercial? The
"instant outdoor" image? Just because you buy a Jeep doesn't mean that everyone
who sees you behind the wheel will think you're a lumberjack, out to earn an honest
day's living, preventing someone from hugging a tree. Most Wranglers off the lot
don't seem capable of much more than a quick trip to the supermarket. Anyone
seriously considering using their vehicle in an off-road environment will usually
take measures to more adequately equip it to meet their requirements. Land Rover's
infomercial boasts that they invented 4WD, and that their assembly line Disco II
could run errands all day, back and forth, across the Rubicon. Funny though, most
folks driving Rovers here in Southern California never get dirt on their tires,
much less mud, and probably never shift into 4WD LO more than one in their
vehicle's lifetime. Most folks that you see in Jeeps that enjoy going off-road,
usually look like they've been off-road (trail trophies and the like on the
vehicle), their hair's a mess because the top is off (when they can, if they can),
and they're usually smiling. Rover drivers around here are usually dialing. Ever
wonder why you see Wrangler and CJ drivers waving at each other on the road? Keep
wondering, while you enjoy your finely laquered cherry wood dash, or as you let the
air out of your push-button hydraulic suspension at the Nordstroms parking lot, so
that you can get of your Disco without having to overstretch your atrophied leg
muscles.
Keep on Jeepin',
Doug Gavilanes
Garden Grove, CA.
Mike Romain
Up here in Canada, we see a lot of Discos out in the woods. Granted,
more in the city, but lots off road.
The local dealer even has organized trips out to our local sand pit and
mud hole 'playground'.
Some come along on our Jeep trips too.
Stock for stock the Jeep and the Disco are pretty evenly matched. The
driver makes the difference.
I even have a 'Disco Follies' section of my photo album, they do tend to
get high centered easy. ;-)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1161190&a=10940534&f=0
Don't have photos, but they can follow us through pretty deep water
too. One guy had a leak though... When he opened his doors, the water
just poured out.
He was Not impressed.
On the big hill climb at the sand pit, the stock Discos can make it, but
they have to be going hard enough at the 2/3 mark to set off all the
alarms. The headlights start flashing, the flashers go off and the horn
honks.
It is pretty funny to watch, but those folks are sure game!
Tons of folks can't run this climb, in my Jeep, it's a 3rd low to the
mats type one.
My $0.02,
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
88 Cherokee 235 AT's
Build and Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:
(Updated 04/03/01 with April Fools Day '01 Winter Run)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1161190
Goat Crapp
>don't seem capable of much more than a quick trip to the supermarket.
you would be amazed at what a stock wrangler can do. I dont know much about
earlier models, but as far as TJ's go - well. you would be amazed. The *only*
thing i would complain about re: stock wrangler are the really slippery GSA
tires... im not even talking about adding larger tires - just if - from the lot
the came with a better set of rubber (hell, keep it the same size as stock
rubber, just something that wont clog so easily with mud or water)
that said - for less than 500$ investment, a spacer lift and some 31" a/t or
mud tires can be had, (keeping the stock suspension) and this setup will keep
up with all but the hardest trails.
but anyways take a ride in a stock wrangler (assuming the loose nut behind the
wheel knows what they are doing offroad) and you would be amazed. thats all i
gotta say.
MKloepster
<<Ever wonder why you see Wrangler and CJ drivers waving at each other on the
road?>>
Nope, but then I've never seen it. Maybe it happens because one is broken down
and needs a tow?
<<Keep wondering, while you enjoy your finely laquered cherry wood dash, or as
you let the air out of your push-button hydraulic suspension at the Nordstroms
parking lot, so that you can get of your Disco without having to overstretch
your atrophied leg muscles.>>
Perhaps if I owned one . . . .and had "atrophied leg muscles." I don't know
man--it sounds as though you just resent those who can afford a rover. I
personally have no experience with rovers; just jeeps. In fact I almost
purchased a cherokee, and I remember two different jeep salesmen at different
dealerships talking about "that jeep image." Sounded pretty hokey to me. Hence
the crack about buying an image.
J5
bought a jeep. Is that your experience? At least in the states, if dollar
amounts were equal, you'd have a much more capable rig for the money with a
jeep than a rover. Now the brits have the fortune of being able to pick up
defenders (my personal choice if I were to choose a rover) for about 9K US -
according to someone's previous post. That's a different story and might
get me leaning in another direction. As far as I'm concerned, bang for the
buck you can't beat a jeep. And what did you expect a car salesman to pitch
to you? Lame gas mileage? Noisy? Larger than average roll-over risk? I'm
sure he wouldn't sell many cars that way.
j5
(who's convinced "you wouldn't understand")
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"MKloepster" <mkloe...@aol.compost.bin> wrote in message
news:20010510010254...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
Jerry Bransford
MKloepster wrote:
>
> <<Ever wonder why you see Wrangler and CJ drivers waving at each other on the
> road?>>
>
> Nope, but then I've never seen it. Maybe it happens because one is broken down
> and needs a tow?
You don't understand and you wouldn't understand, it's plain to see.
>
> <<Keep wondering, while you enjoy your finely laquered cherry wood dash, or as
> you let the air out of your push-button hydraulic suspension at the Nordstroms
> parking lot, so that you can get of your Disco without having to overstretch
> your atrophied leg muscles.>>
>
> Perhaps if I owned one . . . .and had "atrophied leg muscles." I don't know
> man--it sounds as though you just resent those who can afford a rover. I
> personally have no experience with rovers; just jeeps. In fact I almost
> purchased a cherokee, and I remember two different jeep salesmen at different
> dealerships talking about "that jeep image." Sounded pretty hokey to me. Hence
> the crack about buying an image.
What a joke. You "almost" purchased a Cherokee, you don't own a Land
Rover, and you pretend to know what either is about?
Douglas Gavilanes
Sorry if I get defensive about my passion, but I can't get passionate about a
Defender. Unless someone gives me one for free, that is. :-) They sell used
around here starting at @ $40K... I'll keep my YJ...
I realize that the inhabitants here in Southern California (especially in L.A.,
Beverly Hills, and south Orange County) are know to be a bit 'different" from folks
in the Midwest or other more "normal" areas of the U.S., so what we see here as the
Yuppification of SUV's may not be noticeable in other areas. Some vehicles are
targeted to the Yuppie market. That's obvious, and around here, the Range Rover
and Disco certainly are. Jeeps aren't that Yuppified. Except now DC is
disrespecting the brand name and customer base by rolling out the Liberty (I call
it the K-Y, because DC wants to lube us up and cram it up our ass). In my earlier
comment, I didn't mean to say that the stock Wrangler is capable of trips to the
supermarket (if I even did). I meant to write that the stock Wrangler doesn't look
capable (but it is, despite the crappy Goodyears DC ships). Oh, well. Not trying
to offend anyone here, anyway.
Regards,
Doug
MKloepster
>bought a jeep. Is that your experience?
Nope. I was responding to a remark about someone not "being worthy" of joining
the jeep crowd. I suggested that many try to buy an image, and gave an example
of two dealers who tried to use that as a sales ploy. That's all the
experience I need to support my comment (and yes I have more but it's not
relevant to my comment). I mentioned that I almost bought one simply to
demonstrate that I have no particular pro-rover feeling (butt-ugly compared to
a cherokee). Then a guy made several remarks about what supposed rover owners
are like, apparently assuming that I was one. He seemed to have a need to
deride ownership of a vehicle with luxury features, which lead me to believe
that he might be a bit resentful. He, like you, did not comprehend the
substance of my post. I won't respond to the rest of your post because it is
wholly irrelevant to the comment that I made.
MKloepster
>Rover, and you pretend to know what either is about?
I test drove several cherokees of different years--one for a full week of on
and off road driving. I have also ended up with them as rental cars about
twice a month for about four months. I also researched them pretty seriously
before that. So yes, I know precisely what the cherokee is about. I never
claimed knowledge about the rover. If you had understood the substance of my
post, you would have seen that *any* knowledge about the rover is irrelevant to
an opinion about marketers trying to sell a "jeep image."
Jerry Bransford
significant experience with it "offroad" aside from maybe a dirt road.
--
Bri
No Way! <F...@Wayout.com> wrote in message
news:6cZJ6.31471$aE1.1...@nnrp4.clara.net...
> Interesting for a Brit to see the US attitudes to Land Rovers.
>
> My 1989 90 County Station Wagon V8 has been totally reliable, is used
> seriously off-road two or three times per month and as it is not fitted
with
> anti-roll (sway bars) it has amazing axle artic.
>
> I can't understand why LR's seem to be so unreliable in the US, perhaps
it's
> because they are marketed as expensive toys rather than working vehicles
and
> so expectations are set too high.
Expensive vs working has nothing to do with reliability.
>
> Anyway, it makes me laugh when I hear them described as expensive when
> decent usable Defenders start at about $3500 here in the UK. Early
> Discoverys from around 1989 are $4500 or so and early two door Range
Rovers
> in reasonable condition from 1970 to 1975 start at about $400.
The prices on Discos (not SeriesII) are coming down quickly. A '95 being
about 13-15k USD.
However... Defenders are no longer imported, so they are worth more then
they were new (at least many D90s are).
The last D90 was 1997 and if you have one with low miles (< 10k/year), then
you could as 45-50k USD.
Plus service on Rovers is a bit more expensive (engine main seal on '95
disco is about $2k USD).
With that said, they still rock.
Bri
Bri
Mike Romain <rom...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3AF9DF9D...@sympatico.ca...
> Douglas Gavilanes wrote:
> >
> > MKloepster wrote:
> >
> > > > Maybe they just don't think you fit
> > > >into the Jeep "mold" would be my guess
> > >
> > > Ah yes, go to your nearest Jeep dealer and buy that "instant outdoor"
image....
> >
> > Isn't that what Land Rover is selling in their 30 minute national
infomercial?
Never seen a 30 minute infomercial in CO and there is a big market for LR
here. Must not me national, or maybe you are just making it up?
> > The
> > "instant outdoor" image? Just because you buy a Jeep doesn't mean that
everyone
> > who sees you behind the wheel will think you're a lumberjack, out to
earn an honest
> > day's living, preventing someone from hugging a tree. Most Wranglers
off the lot
> > don't seem capable of much more than a quick trip to the supermarket.
Anyone
> > seriously considering using their vehicle in an off-road environment
will usually
> > take measures to more adequately equip it to meet their requirements.
Land Rover's
> > infomercial boasts that they invented 4WD, and that their assembly line
Disco II
> > could run errands all day, back and forth, across the Rubicon.
Not with the stock tires though.
> > Funny though, most
> > folks driving Rovers here in Southern California never get dirt on their
tires,
> > much less mud, and probably never shift into 4WD LO more than one in
their
> > vehicle's lifetime.
But the same goes for jeeps. And if you compare the % of total LR that have
been off road and the total % of jeeps that have been off road I bet the LR
would be higher.
> > Most folks that you see in Jeeps that enjoy going off-road,
> > usually look like they've been off-road (trail trophies and the like on
the
> > vehicle), their hair's a mess because the top is off (when they can, if
they can),
> > and they're usually smiling.
Really it is my impression that it is the Jeep owners that typically put on
a 10" left, 45" swampers, lockers and drive around So Cal highways stuck in
traffic. :-)
The one time they take it off road they wonder why they broke an axel <--
true Moab story BTW.
Give me a break. The fact is the majority of SUV regardless of make do not
make it off road. Jeep's, LR and the like.
> >Rover drivers around here are usually dialing. Ever
> > wonder why you see Wrangler and CJ drivers waving at each other on the
road? Keep
> > wondering, while you enjoy your finely laquered cherry wood dash, or as
you let the
> > air out of your push-button hydraulic suspension at the Nordstroms
parking lot, so
> > that you can get of your Disco without having to overstretch your
atrophied leg
> > muscles.
You're stereotyping and generalizing your foot very deep into your mouth.
Bri
PS: No cheerywood here and the onlything I let the air out of is my tires.
Bri
J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:CWpK6.4559$Ak7.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> So you're just trolling? You don't own a rover and it appears you
"almost"
> bought a jeep. Is that your experience? At least in the states, if
dollar
> amounts were equal, you'd have a much more capable rig for the money with
a
> jeep than a rover.
I'll choose to agree and disagree with this statement. If you are talking
about a D90 well yes, you can pay a hefty $ for one now since they are
basically a collectors item (they stopped importing in '97).
However you can get a nice 95-99 disco for great prices. Here in CO you can
get a 96 for under 15k. Add some 31" tires, OME shocks/springs ($400) and
you will be able to easily keep up or outperform a similarly configured jeep
and driver.
Bri
Bri
MB <*@*.*> wrote in message news:7uvpudj...@possu.research.nokia.com...
> Jerry Bransford >
> > Funny, my 97 TJ has taken more offroad abuse than any 1000 4x4 trucks
> > and with 98,000 miles on it, it had a cracked exaust manifold taken care
> > of under warranty, but no other problems.
Extended warranty that is.
J5
might.
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:f0TK6.917$N23.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
J5
> You're stereotyping and generalizing your foot very deep into your mouth.
>
But yet you say:
> Never seen a 30 minute infomercial in CO and there is a big market for LR
> here. Must not me national, or maybe you are just making it up?
So since you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist? I gather you watch every
show on TV?
and:
> Really it is my impression that it is the Jeep owners that typically put
on
> a 10" left, 45" swampers, lockers and drive around So Cal highways stuck
in
> traffic. :-)
and you live in CO but yet you've followed these socal guys around? You
know what they do on the weekends? My guess (generalization) is that more
than less of them with the 10" (that's a lot in case you don't know or were
you just making another generalization?) of left (lift) and 45" swampers
(Can you even fit a 45" swamper on a jeep with 10" of left (lift)) have
set-up those rigs for a reason. Which is to take them offroad and save some
money over buying a rover while at the same time having a much more capable
rig. Now I have yet to run into a jeep in socal with 10" of lift and 45"
swampers, but I've talked to some with 5" of lift and 38's and everyone I've
spoken with use their rig off-road. Regardless of whether or not they're
stuck in socal traffic. My .02.
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3USK6.911$N23....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jerry Bransford
little dirt road or a local fire access road. I'd just let him stay in
his own world since it's also apparent he's not the type that is going
to do any real offroading.
Jerry
--
Bri
> Interesting comment:
>
> > You're stereotyping and generalizing your foot very deep into your
mouth.
> >
>
> But yet you say:
>
> > Never seen a 30 minute infomercial in CO and there is a big market for
LR
> > here. Must not me national, or maybe you are just making it up?
>
> So since you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist? I gather you watch every
> show on TV?
Nope, just intimate with Land Rover ads and marketing and I have not heard
of it.
>
> and:
>
> > Really it is my impression that it is the Jeep owners that typically put
> on
> > a 10" left, 45" swampers, lockers and drive around So Cal highways stuck
> in
> > traffic. :-)
Well first of all the smiley means it was a joke AND exaggeration to make a
point that apparently you did not get, sorry.
>
> and you live in CO but yet you've followed these socal guys around? You
> know what they do on the weekends?
Absolutely, just moved from NoCal and continue to work in NoCal and SoCal
and did LR events in both.
> My guess (generalization) is that more
> than less of them with the 10" (that's a lot in case you don't know or
were
> you just making another generalization?) of left (lift) and 45" swampers
> (Can you even fit a 45" swamper on a jeep with 10" of left (lift)) have
> set-up those rigs for a reason. Which is to take them offroad and save
some
> money over buying a rover while at the same time having a much more
capable
> rig.
Depending on the Rover you might be better off buying a capable vehicle,
then doing the mods.
Bri
Actually the TJ is the only jeep with better stock approach and departure
then a disco and I question the approach if you remove the air dam from the
disco. The Cherokee and GC are worse.
I have been over some 4+ and 5+ trails in moab and have only one minor ding
in the bent over part of the bottom of my rear quarter panel. Most people
never even see it. I saw a jeep with 36" and locker thrashing on something
that I got up easily (with the aid of an excellent spotter). The vehicle
many times has very little to do with it.
Besides... all you need to do is add sliders and no worries about keeping
the body guy ready. Even jeepers do this.
Bri
J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:%hTK6.953$N23.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
J5
book intimate is working for them (parent company, not dealer). Knowing
what's really going on with the marketing and advertising that's out there.
Or do you mean intimate as in you're a fan and watch every commercial you
see? And you've got a t-shirt and cap you wear on the weekends :) And I
forgot to mention that for the 15k you claim you can get for your 95 rover,
you could pick up a 95 YJ already lifted, locked with 35's and still clean
the rovers clock - or buy one for 8 grand and put your own choice of tires,
rims, lockers and the like on and throw a party with the leftover money. So
I stand by my statement that bang for the buck, you can't beat a jeep in the
US if your really going to be offroad. And Jerry, I think you're probably
correct.
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:fwTK6.837$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
J5
or a CJ? Just not the TJ? Do you know sliders on an XJ work just as well
as sliders on a rover? I followed two XJ's a month ago - 30" tires or less
on both, nothing more than stock axles/limited slip over Hole in the rock
trail (3+ I believe since your into that) (notice no generalizations about
4+ or 5+ trails (btw, which 5+ trail did you run in moab with your rig?))
and not a single ding on either. We even took a new grand back to camp with
us which was just purchased and that came away without a hitch or scratch.
And neither had sliders/rocker/r.quarter protection. And I don't have the
data but I believe the new grands have better approach and departure angles
than any current rover you can get in the states. And you don't need to
remove the airdams.
j5
Which 5+ trail?
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hCTK6.861$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Bri
> My bad, did miss the smiley. Intimate? Could you be less general? In
my
> book intimate is working for them (parent company, not dealer).
promotional material, never once has LR told me about a 30 minute
infomercial. Nor have I read about one anywhere.
> Knowing
> what's really going on with the marketing and advertising that's out
there.
> Or do you mean intimate as in you're a fan and watch every commercial you
> see? And you've got a t-shirt and cap you wear on the weekends :) And I
> forgot to mention that for the 15k you claim you can get for your 95
rover,
> you could pick up a 95 YJ already lifted, locked with 35's and still clean
> the rovers clock
I wouldn't bet on that. Like I said I had my stock Disco doing stuff a YJ
couldn't depends on an aweful lot of stuff.
FYI, I have also owned a YJ and taken them on identical trails. Stock for
Stock the disco kicked its butt. Especially in articulation. Way too easy
to lift a wheel on a stock jeep.
> or buy one for 8 grand and put your own choice of tires,
> rims, lockers and the like on and throw a party with the leftover money.
But without changing the drive line and axles all you are going to do is
break something. The Disco comes with heavy axles that articulate very
well. I do not need all the crud that you mention although REAR lockers
would be nice.
> So
> I stand by my statement that bang for the buck, you can't beat a jeep in
the
> US if your really going to be offroad.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on if you like to continually upgrade and tweak
your vehicle. I just like to buy one and be done with it.
Bri
some hardcore stuff off and on with the assistance of friends and
professional guides (I do not yet have the confidenceor equipment to attempt
hardcore stuff on my own). By hardcore I typically mean 5+ in Moab ratings
and 9+ in CO ratings.
I've done many trails in Moab in a Wrangler, Bronco and Disco,
Uintahs(primarily wrangler), Wasatch(primarily wrangler), Death Valley
(Disco), Mendocino (Disco) and now I will be doing some hardcore stuff in
CO. I cannot wait to do Blanca Peak and Redcone here in OC am adding a few
items to help, but still need a trail partner with a winch, just in case.
Just for starters look into Poison Spider Mesa (Bronco/Wrangler/LR), Cliff
Hangar (LR), Hole in the rock(LR) that's the kind of stuff I have done and
more.
Bri
Nadir Elfarra
----------
In article <20010430221032...@ng-de1.aol.com>,
goat...@aol.comnospam (Goat Crapp) wrote:
> but you can equip a TJ for a lot less $$ <g>
>
> :)
True - jeep parts abound, but the Rover market is growing. Over the past
three years the number of suppliers has increased markedly (Nationwide as
well as internationally). If you're used to the jeep market, though, the
Rover market will seem anemic to you.
>>Equip them similarly with lockers, same tires, etc. and they have very
>>similar offroad abilities. You'll find for more accessories and offroad
>>build-up items for the TJ though.
>>
>>Jerry
As someone stated earlier, it has more to do with the driver's skill, even
if the vehicles are heavily modified (and once you start modifying lifts,
drive shafts, lockers, trailing arms, etc. the differences blur to almost
nothing).
I own a '94 D-90 (yes, it was expensive, and yes it's been off-road a number
of times). I've also owned an '88 XJ a '79 CJ-7 (AMC V8, AMC 20 Xfer, 3"
lift, 33" tires, just about replaced every component under the hood).
Recognizing that I'm NOT talking about a TJ, the CJ was much less stable at
high speed than the D-90.
Given the very slight difference in wheel base and track width and that both
rigs use coils all around, I would expect ride comfort to be very similar.
The full-time four wheel drive is a nice advantage.
Someone wondered in an earlier post if all Defenders came with lockers -
they do not - they come with a center differential lock which simply turns
their full time 4WD into part time 4WD to use jeep parlance (think of it as
the NP242 vs. the NP231). You can still get cross axled and need a Detroit
or ARB locker in a D-90.
With the right mod's, the D-90 is just as capable as any other hard core
rig. Do we pay a premium for looks? Yes, but IMHO so do a lot of other
wheelers (can you say Hummer?). I know that back when I was buying that 79
CJ I considered FJ40's but couldn't afford the premium on those (relatively
speaking, of course). Don't slam a guy for paying for looks - if it
motivates us to join the hobby, get outdoors, support trail access, etc.
it's all to everyone's benefit.
One day I hope to own another CJ, an FJ, an early Bronco, a Series II Land
Rover, etc. etc. etc. One rig will never be enough! :-)
-Nadir
Los Angeles, CA
J5
before you spout your 5+ trails as there are none. Pritchet is a 5 (which I
don't see you listed). And if you don't believe me I've cut and pasted
below. The red rocks guys are a club in moab in case you weren't familiar.
It's the standard by which trails are judged in moab. Now, since you don't
know the rating system and don't even own a winch, I'd like to see a few
pics of your rover on poison spider before we continue this discussion.
j5
Red Rock 4-Wheelers
Trail Difficulty Ratings
1 All weather road; 4WD not needed.
1 1/2 Graded road; 4WD may be needed in poor weather.
2 Unimproved or rarely graded road. 4WD or extra clearance needed at times,
with no special driving skills required.
2 1/2 Road rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance, low gears often needed,
with some extra care and a bit of driving experience useful.
3 Road in difficult terrain, rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance, and low
gears essential, with some driving skill and daring required.
3 1/2 Road in difficult terrain, probably maintained only by occasional
users. Excellent stock truck or utility vehicle required, with considerable
driving skill and daring needed.
4 Trail either never bladed or badly eroded. Stock vehicles are in jeopardy.
Modifications for improved off-road performance and top driving skills
needed.
4 + We can hardly improve on the original description written a few years
ago by Jack Bickers: "with driving by World Class Yahoo Jeepers not much
concerned with vehicle durability or personal safety." It is common to have
as many as 10 percent of the vehicles experience major mechanical failures
(gears, axles, driveshafts) on these trails.
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:pbUK6.955$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Mike Romain
Mike
J5
see all the commercials or ads that are placed so suggestioning that someone
is lying when in fact it is you, doesn't lend and credence to any further
spouts from your trap.
Since when have we been talking stock for stock? We've been discussing bang
for the buck, lifted rigs and the people who use them and the people who
don't. Stick to the subject matter at hand. And btw, a 97 tj with a 44
(an option available in case you didn't know and a fairly stout axle) and a
rear locker used with 33's or 35's could still be had for less than your
used 95 rover and you'd still have a much better rig (since you're concerned
about the axles). But you wouldn't have your party money. I guess you
could just celebrate the fact that you were still lunching stock 95 rovers
on the trail and didn't spend any more money than them to get a much more
capable vehicle.
As far as a stock YJ goes, when's the last time you've seen a stock one on
the trails? I can't recall myself it's been so long. They suck flex wise
unless modified but I could most certainly (and have) fix up a YJ for a
whole lot less money (or an XJ for that matter) and have it be a much better
trail vehicle than any rover and still have money to burn. Even a 2.5 inch
spring lift, revolver shackles, 33's and front and rear lockers, sye kit can
be had for a YJ (which will flex your heart out) for under 10 grand. At
10K, your just starting to look at rovers made in the past 10 years. And
guess what, when you got this far, you wouldn't have to keep "tweeking" your
vehicle. You could be "done with it". But what's the fun in that for a
true offroader? I'll tell you since you don't already know but you have to
ask nicely :)
j5
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:G0UK6.930$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
J5
j5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Nadir Elfarra" <nad...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dfpna$rnt$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Bri
I used 1997 information because I am not a big proponent of the DiscoII (too
much electrically controlled stuff).
It is absolutely not true that new grands have better approach angles then
rovers available in the states, see above. The GC has gotten worse since 97
and rover hs increase angles since 97. I can look them up of you need
absolute proof, but I have had my Disco side by side to my nieghbors GC and
both my approach and depart kick its ass and would even with stupid
worthless plastic parts, AND even if he removed his plastic too (note
however that this would mean that he would have to remove/replace the entire
bumper if he wanted to keep any aesthetics.
J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:dTTK6.1050$N23.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> So you're saying you have a better approach and departure angle than my YJ
> or a CJ? Just not the TJ?
I will generalize and say cherokee or grand cherokee and wrangler is
debatable (IMHO).
> Do you know sliders on an XJ work just as well
> as sliders on a rover?
Yep
> I followed two XJ's a month ago - 30" tires or less
> on both, nothing more than stock axles/limited slip over Hole in the rock
> trail (3+ I believe since your into that) (notice no generalizations about
> 4+ or 5+ trails (btw, which 5+ trail did you run in moab with your rig?))
> and not a single ding on either.
Yep me too. I new that I had done some of the toughest common trails in
Moab and that these were 5+. However in review, there are no 5+ only 4+
sorry for the mistake.
I did the following trails in my stock 95 disco only minus air dams, no
lift, 235/65 /15 tires. I can't wait to do it again with larger tires.
Poison Spider Mesa
Golden Spike
Behind the Rocks (Disco)
Cliff Hangar (Dicso)
Hole in the rock (Disco/Wrangler) Note this is a 4 not a 3 as you
mentioned
Pritchet Canyon.
I think I have done Moab Rim and Top of the World, but am not sure.
I was winched once on cliff hanger on the return route, up a nasty obstacle.
The D90s made it easier on the one ledge since they had a short wheel base.
I thrashed a bit gave up when I came to rest on the rocker guard, but no
damage :-).
> We even took a new grand back to camp with
> us which was just purchased and that came away without a hitch or scratch.
That is desireable after all.
I guarantee that a GC would be scratched on Cliff Hanger, Poison Spider Mesa
and possibly loose all of the fron/rear plastic. Another obstacle called
Rocker Knocker on Pritchet Canyon trail would definitely kiss the airdams
goodby and that trail is only a 4+. I got up on rocker knocker, but only
one D90 made it with open diffs all other D90s locked in, one or two locked
front and rear. There were some really good drivers in the group I was with
and we had a professional ex-camel trophy guide.
The guide I was with did not allow any vehicles with plastic in the front,
back could have lived but was questionable. Most rovers have little plastic
in the rear and it is pretty high.
> And neither had sliders/rocker/r.quarter protection. And I don't have the
> data but I believe the new grands have better approach and departure
angles
> than any current rover you can get in the states.
I believe you are wrong, but years and a whole bunch of other crap would be
important, so you may be only partially wrong. If you compare 1997 you are
definitely wrong... here you go:
Disco (SeriesI-1997): approach: 40, departure: 32.5, ramp break over: 151
Grand Cherokee (1997) Approach 37, Departure 30, break over 20.5
Wrangler (1998) Approach Angle 44.3° Departure 32.1° Breakover 25.4°
Note that I do not understand the difference in breakover angle measurement
but suspect that you could use 29 for the rover. These are only specs that
I could find quickly. I suspect that the model years to not drasticlly
change any of the models. However I have heard rumors that of the 2
manufactures (Chysler and Landrover) that landrover was the only one to
improve approach and departure. I have not however looked into this rumor
and from the looks of the Disco SII, it appears to be worse with the chosen
"street" tires that come as standard equipments (note however, the tires do
result in more power applied to the pavement).
I suspect that by removing the airdams +31"ers on the Disco I guess mine is
about 53 approach and 40 departure, but have not measured.
> And you don't need to
> remove the airdams.
Then the trails will remove them for you!
> j5
>
> Which 5+ trail?
Bri
I used 1997 information because I am not a big proponent of the DiscoII (too
much electrically controlled stuff).
It is absolutely not true that new grands have better approach angles then
rovers available in the states, see above. The GC has gotten worse since 97
and rover hs increase angles since 97. I can look them up of you need
absolute proof, but I have had my Disco side by side to my nieghbors GC and
both my approach and depart kick its ass and would even with stupid
worthless plastic parts, AND even if he removed his plastic too (note
however that this would mean that he would have to remove/replace the entire
bumper if he wanted to keep any aesthetics.
J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:dTTK6.1050$N23.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> So you're saying you have a better approach and departure angle than my YJ
> or a CJ? Just not the TJ?
I will generalize and say cherokee or grand cherokee and wrangler is
debatable (IMHO).
> Do you know sliders on an XJ work just as well
> as sliders on a rover?
Yep
> I followed two XJ's a month ago - 30" tires or less
> on both, nothing more than stock axles/limited slip over Hole in the rock
> trail (3+ I believe since your into that) (notice no generalizations about
> 4+ or 5+ trails (btw, which 5+ trail did you run in moab with your rig?))
> and not a single ding on either.
Yep me too. I new that I had done some of the toughest common trails in
Moab and that these were 5+. However in review, there are no 5+ only 4+
sorry for the mistake.
I did the following trails in my stock 95 disco only minus air dams, no
lift, 235/65 /15 tires. I can't wait to do it again with larger tires.
Poison Spider Mesa
Golden Spike
Behind the Rocks (Disco)
Cliff Hangar (Dicso)
Hole in the rock (Disco/Wrangler) Note this is a 4 not a 3 as you
mentioned
Pritchet Canyon.
I think I have done Moab Rim and Top of the World, but am not sure.
I was winched once on cliff hanger on the return route, up a nasty obstacle.
The D90s made it easier on the one ledge since they had a short wheel base.
I thrashed a bit gave up when I came to rest on the rocker guard, but no
damage :-).
> We even took a new grand back to camp with
> us which was just purchased and that came away without a hitch or scratch.
That is desireable after all.
I guarantee that a GC would be scratched on Cliff Hanger, Poison Spider Mesa
and possibly loose all of the fron/rear plastic. Another obstacle called
Rocker Knocker on Pritchet Canyon trail would definitely kiss the airdams
goodby and that trail is only a 4+. I got up on rocker knocker, but only
one D90 made it with open diffs all other D90s locked in, one or two locked
front and rear. There were some really good drivers in the group I was with
and we had a professional ex-camel trophy guide.
The guide I was with did not allow any vehicles with plastic in the front,
back could have lived but was questionable. Most rovers have little plastic
in the rear and it is pretty high.
> And neither had sliders/rocker/r.quarter protection. And I don't have the
> data but I believe the new grands have better approach and departure
angles
> than any current rover you can get in the states.
I believe you are wrong, but years and a whole bunch of other crap would be
important, so you may be only partially wrong. If you compare 1997 you are
definitely wrong... here you go:
Disco (SeriesI-1997): approach: 40, departure: 32.5, ramp break over: 151
Grand Cherokee (1997) Approach 37, Departure 30, break over 20.5
Wrangler (1998) Approach Angle 44.3° Departure 32.1° Breakover 25.4°
Note that I do not understand the difference in breakover angle measurement
but suspect that you could use 29 for the rover. These are only specs that
I could find quickly. I suspect that the model years to not drasticlly
change any of the models. However I have heard rumors that of the 2
manufactures (Chysler and Landrover) that landrover was the only one to
improve approach and departure. I have not however looked into this rumor
and from the looks of the Disco SII, it appears to be worse with the chosen
"street" tires that come as standard equipments (note however, the tires do
result in more power applied to the pavement).
I suspect that by removing the airdams +31"ers on the Disco I guess mine is
about 53 approach and 40 departure, but have not measured.
> And you don't need to
> remove the airdams.
Then the trails will remove them for you!
> j5
>
> Which 5+ trail?
Bri
> So you're saying you have a better approach and departure angle than my YJ
> or a CJ? Just not the TJ?
debatable (IMHO).
> Do you know sliders on an XJ work just as well
> as sliders on a rover?
Yep
> I followed two XJ's a month ago - 30" tires or less
> on both, nothing more than stock axles/limited slip over Hole in the rock
> trail (3+ I believe since your into that) (notice no generalizations about
> 4+ or 5+ trails (btw, which 5+ trail did you run in moab with your rig?))
> and not a single ding on either.
Yep me too. I new that I had done some of the toughest common trails in
Moab and that these were 5+. However in review, there are no 5+ only 4+
sorry for the mistake.
I did the following trails in my stock 95 disco only minus air dams, no
lift, 235/65 /15 tires. I can't wait to do it again with larger tires.
Poison Spider Mesa
Golden Spike
Behind the Rocks (Disco)
Cliff Hangar (Dicso)
Hole in the rock (Disco/Wrangler) Note this is a 4 not a 3 as you
mentioned
Pritchet Canyon.
I think I have done Moab Rim and Top of the World, but am not sure.
I was winched once on cliff hanger on the return route, up a nasty obstacle.
The D90s made it easier on the one ledge since they had a short wheel base.
I thrashed a bit gave up when I came to rest on the rocker guard, but no
damage :-).
> We even took a new grand back to camp with
> us which was just purchased and that came away without a hitch or scratch.
That is desireable after all.
I guarantee that a GC would be scratched on Cliff Hanger, Poison Spider Mesa
and possibly loose all of the fron/rear plastic. Another obstacle called
Rocker Knocker on Pritchet Canyon trail would definitely kiss the airdams
goodby and that trail is only a 4+. I got up on rocker knocker, but only
one D90 made it with open diffs all other D90s locked in, one or two locked
front and rear. There were some really good drivers in the group I was with
and we had a professional ex-camel trophy guide.
The guide I was with did not allow any vehicles with plastic in the front,
back could have lived but was questionable. Most rovers have little plastic
in the rear and it is pretty high.
> And neither had sliders/rocker/r.quarter protection. And I don't have the
> data but I believe the new grands have better approach and departure
angles
> than any current rover you can get in the states.
I believe you are wrong, but years and a whole bunch of other crap would be
important, so you may be only partially wrong. If you compare 1997 you are
definitely wrong... here you go:
Disco (SeriesI-1997): approach: 40, departure: 32.5, ramp break over: 151
Grand Cherokee (1997) Approach 37, Departure 30, break over 20.5
Wrangler (1998) Approach Angle 44.3° Departure 32.1° Breakover 25.4°
Note that I do not understand the difference in breakover angle measurement
but suspect that you could use 29 for the rover. These are only specs that
I could find quickly. I suspect that the model years to not drasticlly
change any of the models. However I have heard rumors that of the 2
manufactures (Chysler and Landrover) that landrover was the only one to
improve approach and departure. I have not however looked into this rumor
and from the looks of the Disco SII, it appears to be worse with the chosen
"street" tires that come as standard equipments (note however, the tires do
result in more power applied to the pavement).
I suspect that by removing the airdams +31"ers on the Disco I guess mine is
about 53 approach and 40 departure, but have not measured.
> And you don't need to
> remove the airdams.
Then the trails will remove them for you!
> j5
>
> Which 5+ trail?
Bri
Pritchet.
I only have hard copies of the pictures, maybe we could meat in Moab
sometime, but I'll need a weekend+2-3 days and at least a months notice.
I'll likely go down in October.
I think I have a picture being winched up rocker knocker and another on a
nasty ledge on cliff hangar that I mentioned in the other email.
You don't talk about vehicles and capabilities without someone supplying you
pictures?? Sounds silly to me, maybe you should lighten up.
BTW Bill Burke http://www.bb4wa.com takes stock discos and many other
vehicles over these trails all the time. No requirement for a winch if
others are willing to help. It's a team thing. I even got to operate the
winch for one of my vehicles "winchings". Great fun.
Bri
J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:8YUK6.1130$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Bri
> Then you're not "intimate" with them. I keep up with jeeps but yet don't
> see all the commercials or ads that are placed so suggestioning that
someone
> is lying when in fact it is you, doesn't lend and credence to any further
> spouts from your trap.
Never suggested anyone was lying and I most certainly am not. Apparently
you are just arguing for the sake of it. Intimate is relative. I consider
myself intimate with everything about rovers, especially the marketing
stuff.
Lets see a reference to the infomercial you mentioned in your spout. I am
sure you can find one somewhere afterall of LR is doing some serious
national infomercials, they would mention it somewhere right?
>
> Since when have we been talking stock for stock?
Its the only way to compare, otherwise its apples and oranges. Otherwise I
can build a Samurai that kicks ass on anything. Ever seen a scorpion.
> We've been discussing bang
> for the buck, lifted rigs and the people who use them and the people who
> don't. Stick to the subject matter at hand. And btw, a 97 tj with a 44
> (an option available in case you didn't know and a fairly stout axle) and
a
> rear locker used with 33's or 35's could still be had for less than your
> used 95 rover and you'd still have a much better rig (since you're
concerned
> about the axles). But you wouldn't have your party money.
Depends on how much money you have!
>I guess you
> could just celebrate the fact that you were still lunching stock 95 rovers
> on the trail and didn't spend any more money than them to get a much more
> capable vehicle.
>
> As far as a stock YJ goes, when's the last time you've seen a stock one on
> the trails? I can't recall myself it's been so long. They suck flex wise
> unless modified but I could most certainly (and have) fix up a YJ for a
> whole lot less money (or an XJ for that matter) and have it be a much
better
> trail vehicle than any rover and still have money to burn.
Now we're talking. Thing is a stock 1995 disco doesn't suck.
> Even a 2.5 inch
> spring lift, revolver shackles, 33's and front and rear lockers, sye kit
can
> be had for a YJ (which will flex your heart out) for under 10 grand.
Yep might flex as good as my stock disco.
> At
> 10K, your just starting to look at rovers made in the past 10 years. And
> guess what, when you got this far, you wouldn't have to keep "tweeking"
your
> vehicle. You could be "done with it". But what's the fun in that for a
> true offroader?
More time and money spent getting to and being on the trail! (IMHO)
> I'll tell you since you don't already know but you have to
> ask nicely :)
Pretty please?
:-)
Cheers,
Bri
J5
--
J5's Jeep Page is at:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~j5/
Last Updated 1/8/01
___________________________
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:_KVK6.1458$N23.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> J5 <J...@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:FaVK6.1192$xO1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Then you're not "intimate" with them. I keep up with jeeps but yet
don't
> > see all the commercials or ads that are placed so suggestioning that
> someone
> > is lying when in fact it is you, doesn't lend and credence to any
further
> > spouts from your trap.
>
> Never suggested anyone was lying and I most certainly am not. Apparently
> you are just arguing for the sake of it. Intimate is relative. I
consider
> myself intimate with everything about rovers, especially the marketing
> stuff.
>
> Lets see a reference to the infomercial you mentioned in your spout. I am
> sure you can find one somewhere afterall of LR is doing some serious
> national infomercials, they would mention it somewhere right?
****Never said I saw it. Just said since you hadn't doesn't mean it isn't
there. Why would I want to look for it, I have no use for additional
information on overpriced trail rigs :) And as far as terminology goes, I
hope you're never caught saying your intimate with your neighbors wife when
you really just meant you'd chatted with her and know her perhaps better
than the guy a few blocks away. The term you need would be familiar.
>
> >
> > Since when have we been talking stock for stock?
>
> Its the only way to compare, otherwise its apples and oranges. Otherwise
I
> can build a Samurai that kicks ass on anything. Ever seen a scorpion.
****And you could build a sammy that kicks a stock rovers butt (for a lot
less money still). The sammy's have a better bang for the buck as well than
a rover in the US. The apples and oranges you refer to is the amount of
jack you need to dump into a vehicle to get a top notch trail rig not what
comes stock for a rig - That was the discussion. If the d90 was, as I
stated earlier, 9k here in the states, it would be a different ballgame as
far as mods go. But it's not. And no I haven't seen the tube framed zuke
other than pics in a mag but the real rigs that Avalanche builds (you know
who I mean, no? They're in CO...I'll give you a hint....
http://www.avalancheengr.com/ I've been fortunate enough to witness and
poke around their shop. And that has what to do with the price of your
apples and oranges?
>
> > We've been discussing bang
> > for the buck, lifted rigs and the people who use them and the people who
> > don't. Stick to the subject matter at hand. And btw, a 97 tj with a
44
> > (an option available in case you didn't know and a fairly stout axle)
and
> a
> > rear locker used with 33's or 35's could still be had for less than your
> > used 95 rover and you'd still have a much better rig (since you're
> concerned
> > about the axles). But you wouldn't have your party money.
>
> Depends on how much money you have!
****Not if as stated, you only had 15 grand, Einstein. That's a finite
term.
>
> >I guess you
> > could just celebrate the fact that you were still lunching stock 95
rovers
> > on the trail and didn't spend any more money than them to get a much
more
> > capable vehicle.
> >
> > As far as a stock YJ goes, when's the last time you've seen a stock one
on
> > the trails? I can't recall myself it's been so long. They suck flex
wise
> > unless modified but I could most certainly (and have) fix up a YJ for a
> > whole lot less money (or an XJ for that matter) and have it be a much
> better
> > trail vehicle than any rover and still have money to burn.
>
> Now we're talking. Thing is a stock 1995 disco doesn't suck.
****And it's still 5k more than a set-up YJ which would be better on the
trail. You're just not getting this are you?
>
> > Even a 2.5 inch
> > spring lift, revolver shackles, 33's and front and rear lockers, sye kit
> can
> > be had for a YJ (which will flex your heart out) for under 10 grand.
>
> Yep might flex as good as my stock disco.
****I guarantee it would flex a lot better than a stock disco and STILL be 5
THOUSAND DOLLARS less. If you could get the disco on an RTI ramp (after
removing the air dam), they ramp at 750. I've seen it (they didn't remove
the dam and had a hell of a time even getting it up on the ramp). They
don't flex like you think they do. I've also seen a YJ with revolvers and a
spring over come in at 1100. Now we're talking flex. What's your rig ramp
and how much did you spend on it? I bet I've spent about as much as you
have on your disco but I know mine flexes better, has better gearing, better
lockers, axles, tranny, motor, radiator, clutch, etc. etc. etc. See the
point? Probably not. :)
>
> > At
> > 10K, your just starting to look at rovers made in the past 10 years.
And
> > guess what, when you got this far, you wouldn't have to keep "tweeking"
> your
> > vehicle. You could be "done with it". But what's the fun in that for a
> > true offroader?
>
> More time and money spent getting to and being on the trail! (IMHO)
****How much money does it take you to get to the trail? I never seem to
spend much money being on the trails (maybe your trails have a McDonalds
drive-through in the middle of them which is why you can get your stock
rover on them LOL :)
>
> > I'll tell you since you don't already know but you have to
> > ask nicely :)
>
> Pretty please?
****OK, I'll tell you. Half the fun of having a rig is building it. It's
like hotrodding a car, in the case (which I don't understand the purpose but
do understand the goal) of lowriders it's barely touching the ground. It's
the journey of slowly evolving your rig to where you want it. To customize
it to suit your specific trail/road needs. Not just being happy with some
out of the box frilly burlewood dashed yuppiemobile that a thousand other
people have modified the exact same way. It's personal taste, uniqueness
and differing needs. If I lived in Bama, I wouldn't have the tires/motor I
have now. If I was in WA I'd probably have my rig tweaked a different way.
Ask any yoda owner who's done any work, or a zuki guy, or any rover guy
who's actually done some serious modifications to his rig (I'm guessing
you'd have to ask someone ;) ...it's the same reasoning for them all. It's
a tool to do a job and half the fun is polishing the tool.
cya,
****j5 (who needs to end this now and modify my house with some doggy doors
because I couldn't find a stock house in the neighborhood I liked with which
they came as standard equipment or the ones that had the doors standard
where just cheap imitiations of the doggy door I really wanted and I didn't
want to pay too much).
>
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bri
>
>
>
>
James H.
buttons on the console next to the Auto tranny shifter.
--
-James B. Henry
-Salt Lake City, Utah
-76 FJ40
-TLCA# 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
_____________________________________________________________
"All your base are belong to us!"
"Nadir Elfarra" <nad...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dfpna$rnt$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
MKloepster
>significant experience with it "offroad" aside from maybe a dirt road.
Based on...what? You followed me where I drove it? I took it up into the
mountains while there was still quite a bit of snow up high and quite a bit of
nasty stuff down low. The thing didn't start to bog until the wheel-ruts were
about 9 inches in the snow. All in all, I thought it very good off road. But
that wasn't enough to compensate for its shortcomings elsewhere. I guess you
think that a week plus several one to two-day experiences just isn't enough to
understand the mystical qualities of a jeep vehicle. It's a (competent) small
4wd station wagon--nothing more. Get over it.
___________________________________________________________________
Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
___________________________________________________________________
Bri
>
> ****How much money does it take you to get to the trail? I never seem to
> spend much money being on the trails (maybe your trails have a McDonalds
> drive-through in the middle of them which is why you can get your stock
> rover on them LOL :)
Meals, gas and time can be substantial for some people. I do day runs
throughout the course of a year that can be done on minimal budget, but
believe that extended runs is where I really learn. Many times these are
not in my back yard and take a bit of planning. Since I get very limited
vacation time, this time is like money to me. I have done 2 off-road trips
in the past 5 years that were > 4 weeks, the only thing keepinng _me_ from
doing more is time and money. Maube your situation is different.
> >
> > > I'll tell you since you don't already know but you have to
> > > ask nicely :)
> >
> > Pretty please?
>
> ****OK, I'll tell you. Half the fun of having a rig is building it. It's
> like hotrodding a car, in the case (which I don't understand the purpose
but
> do understand the goal) of lowriders it's barely touching the ground.
It's
> the journey of slowly evolving your rig to where you want it. To
customize
> it to suit your specific trail/road needs. Not just being happy with some
> out of the box frilly burlewood dashed yuppiemobile that a thousand other
> people have modified the exact same way. It's personal taste, uniqueness
> and differing needs. If I lived in Bama, I wouldn't have the tires/motor
I
> have now. If I was in WA I'd probably have my rig tweaked a different
way.
> Ask any yoda owner who's done any work, or a zuki guy, or any rover guy
> who's actually done some serious modifications to his rig (I'm guessing
> you'd have to ask someone ;) ...it's the same reasoning for them all.
It's
> a tool to do a job and half the fun is polishing the tool.
There is no doubt that we all enjoy some form of modifying our vehicle, but
I do not consider this the primary goal in owning a vehicle. To me nearly
all of the fun in having a rig is being on the trail.
I chose a vehicle that does not need heavy modification necessary to tackle
the most difficult trails (not that the vehicles that you choose do not,
that is not my point). Nor do I wish to do extreme wheeling. I do not wish
to be constantly tweaking a vehicle (time and money) in order to be on the
trail. Rather _I_ want to be ready to tackle any trail that I choose,
regardless of my vehicle.
Further I do not wish to have a rig with some of the things that you have
mentioned (i.e. 35" tires) or to deal with the cascade of endless upgrades
in order to avoid your vehicles weakest link. For example really big tires
usually means lifts, gears, axles, and driveline mods. I like to go by the
philosphy that you use a vehicle as it was designed, and not try to
re-engineer the vehicle, kinda like stock car racing. The real challenge is
to get though a trail safely, without harm to you, the vehicle or the
environment-- regardless of the vehicle. My vehicle must also serve many
other purposes other than trail running.
So I'll give you the win on our argument and unless someone is an expert
wheeler go buy a $1500 jeep, it'll do just as good for you as a brand new
rover.
I also will agree with you the avalanche products are really awesome, but I
really do not have the desire to own a Sniper-- cool though.
Cheers,
Bri
Bri
lockers from the factory, that I know of.
I believe the most common diff-lock on rover products is ARB.
Bri
James H. <hce...@aros.net> wrote in message
news:9dhgrk$2kdj$1...@news.aros.net...
James Henry
The third members looked just like the Land Cruiser electric locker third
members, as a matter of fact, almost the entire drivetrain looked like an 80
series land crusiers, now that I think of it.
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
TLCA # 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
"You can have my Land Cruiser when you CUT my COLD DEAD fingers from the
steering wheel!"
"Bri" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kt6L6.3632$N23.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
will
mem.) :-D
but $1200 is outa my price range. :-(
Bri
D90 with a small block in in once. Very nice.
James Henry <hce...@aros.net> wrote in message
news:9djiui$151i$1...@news.aros.net...
Frank Genovese
capablites of the jeep rovers r to top heavy there rally isnt a perfect
4x4 if there is tell me i want it
Frank Morris
Boy!¡ Sounds like I'm talking to myself:-)
You mentioned the perfect 4x4. What kind of off road activity do you
do?¿ What do you want from your 4x4?¿ (Do you need to carry a lot of
gear or people or tow a trailer). Just so many choices:-)
Frank X. Morris
James H.
installation, the LC Electric locker is a pretty good deal.
You also get a new third member, new 4.11 R&p gears, and everything set up.
--
-James B. Henry
-Salt Lake City, Utah
-76 FJ40
-TLCA# 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
_____________________________________________________________
"All your base are belong to us!"
"will" <wil...@yahoo.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:HogL6.853$ox5....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
will
oh no, this one's USED. I don't even want to think what the Dealer
wants for it. yikes!!
OO Heretic
Indeed my TJ 3 year old TJ (http://the-threshold.org/gallery/Jeep )has
been to the dealer for warrenty claims for something like 8 weeks over
that period. Its done 40k miles and probably 10k of that is offroad.
Jap Crap has a much better build quality than Yank built vehicles but
thats more on work ethic and process than the design.
That said, the 2000 version of the TJ appears to have none of the
typical problems of the early TJ's (Exhaust manifold). And even the
hardest Land Rover fan has to admit that the Early Land Rovers build
quality was pretty naff.
Just my two cents...
<Wave>
Regards Simon
MKloepster wrote:
>> Jeep is significantly cheaper and probably better only because it's hard to
>> get any worse. Also, it's cheaper (but by no means cheap) to fix which is
>> importatnt when needed on a weekly basis.
>> Good luck
>>
>
>
> I didn't know Rovers were seen as such POS. Jeep? Well, we've all heard them
> called "Cheaps," "Heaps," and who can forget: "JEEP--just empty every pocket."
> Last straw for me was when an acquaintance who worked at a Jeep dealer's
> service department warned me off; that was the same day my own mechanics
> suggested I look at a different make (went Japanese and love it). That said, a
> lot of people are very happy with their jeeps. I just didn't want reliability
> to even be a concern with my new vehicle. It isn't.
James Henry
ride.
With my TLCA discount, the part new, from the dealership is less than that
($1020).
--
-James H
-76 FJ40
TLCA # 11233
http://www.aros.net/~hceline
"You can have my Land Cruiser when you CUT my COLD DEAD fingers from the
steering wheel!"
"will" <wil...@yahoo.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:85lM6.6588$Az.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...