Avalon Ascent impressions (long)
Bob Schneider
Well, I finally got a chance to hear some Avalon speakers. After
reading Kurt S. raving about them for so long, I was very curious
to hear how they sounded to me. So, a trip to Listen Up (Denver,
Colorado) was in order.
Before I get too far, let me start off by saying that I am a BIG
planer speaker fan. I owned Acoustat 2+2's electrostatics (ES) for
4 years. I currently own the original Apogee's (called the "Full
Range") which I still believe to be the best sounding speaker
that Apogee has ever made. In fact, I believe that, properly set
up, the Apogee full range is the best speaker system I've ever
heard! *With that in mind*, let me continue with my impressions of
the Avalon Ascent.
The Avalon Ascent speaker system I listened to was driven by Mark
Levinson Electronics (amp and pre-amp). The CD player was a Wadia
transport and a Wadia D/A converter.
The Ascents are an unusual shaped (sculpted) pair of speakers that
have a strange shaped (sculpted) box behind them (housing the
crossover). The wood was beautiful. Enough hype, on to the sound.
I listened to some jazz, pop, female vocals, and some stringed
orchestral arrangements.
I had a couple of immediate impressions with the Avalons. First,
I was very impressed with their imaging. A piece that I listened
to had a flute solo and the flutist was clearly dead center
between the two speakers. I could look at one speaker, then look
at the other, concentrate on hearing the flute from either
speaker, but I was unable to shake the impressive imaging of these
speakers. Second, I thought that they produced a very well
integrated, balanced sound.
Soon I began to notice things I didn't like. I haven't owned a
speaker system under 6'6" tall in over 5 years, and I've gotten
used to a tall soundstange. I was bothered a little by the short
soundstage of the Ascents. In the flute solo I discussed above,
although the flutist was in the center, (s)he was about 3 feet
tall. I found this very strange and somewhat unnatural. It made
the music seem a little compressed to me. I was also surprised by
the fact that the Ascents seemed somewhat bass shy in comparison
with some of the competition in these style speakers. I think the
bass pales in comparison with, say, the Vandersteen 4's, or the
no longer available B&W 808's, etc. The bass sounds good and well
integrated, but I've heard much deeper and more powerful bass
from B&W 802's (which cost a lot less).
The next thing I didn't like was the sound of stringed
instruments. To be fair, I believe that the Ascents do a better
job on violins than most other "cone" style speaker system than
I'm aware of. However, I believe that they fall far short of
electrostatics on producing proper timbre for violins. Again, to
be fair, even my Apogee's fall a little short of good
electrostatics on violins. I do feel my Apogee's are well
beyond the Ascents in this area. The Ascents handled cello's
better than violins, but, the timbre still sounded a little
unnatural in comparison with good ES and ribbon speakers.
I was also a little disappointed with the Ascents abilities to
handle female vocals. I LOVE female vocals. I do some of my most
serious listening to female vocals. Female vocals on the ascents
just don't have the sparkle that is so apparent with ES and
ribbon systems. They don't sound and feel as airy as with ES ad
ribbons. Finally, they don't carry as well as they do with ES and
ribbon speakers. Female vocals sounded good on the ascents, but
not fantastic (as they do on my Apogee's and as they did on my
Acoustats).
In conclusion, clearly my preference for planar speakers is still
strong. Clearly, the Ascents don't sound like planar speakers. I
believe the Avalons to be step forward in many directions for
cone speaker systems. They have fantastic imaging and excellent
balance. They had almost ES like attack on sharp transients (which
surprised me!). Kick drums had a much quicker attack than any other
cone speaker that I've heard. However, I remain disappointed with
their (and all cone speakers) ability to handle strings and
female vocals (although I've heard a few KEF's do fairly well on
female vocals).
Bob Schneider rjs%hpf...@hplabs.HP.COM
Kurt Strain
> Well, I finally got a chance to hear some Avalon speakers. After
> reading Kurt S. raving about them for so long, I was very curious
> to hear how they sounded to me. So, a trip to Listen Up (Denver,
> Colorado) was in order.
Oh, no, I feel I'm about to eat my words :-)
> Before I get too far, let me start off by saying that I am a BIG
> planer speaker fan. I owned Acoustat 2+2's electrostatics (ES) for
> 4 years. I currently own the original Apogee's (called the "Full
> Range") which I still believe to be the best sounding speaker
> that Apogee has ever made. In fact, I believe that, properly set
> up, the Apogee full range is the best speaker system I've ever
> heard! *With that in mind*, let me continue with my impressions of
> the Avalon Ascent.
I never heard the Full Range or the Diva. Those were out of my price range
and out of my size range and out of my amp size range. I'm sure they're
excellent. The Ascent I heard briefly out of curiosity. I could only
afford the lesser Eclipse, which I overraved about (just in order
to talk about the need for records.)
> The Avalon Ascent speaker system I listened to was driven by Mark
> Levinson Electronics (amp and pre-amp). The CD player was a Wadia
> transport and a Wadia D/A converter.
I never heard this combo. I would have preferred hearing the Ascents with
records, as you probably guessed. That's where their forte becomes more
apparent. Avalons have a way of being highly unforgiving with bad CD.
> Soon I began to notice things I didn't like. I haven't owned a
> speaker system under 6'6" tall in over 5 years, and I've gotten
> used to a tall soundstange. I was bothered a little by the short
> soundstage of the Ascents.
I've heard that the number one complaint from planar devotees is that this
speaker has too short an image height. I know why. I heard maggies and
thought they were too tall. It's what you get used to.
> I think the
> bass pales in comparison with, say, the Vandersteen 4's, or the
> no longer available B&W 808's, etc. The bass sounds good and well
> integrated, but I've heard much deeper and more powerful bass
> from B&W 802's (which cost a lot less).
You don't need to think it, it is shy in comparison to these.
> The next thing I didn't like was the sound of stringed
> instruments. To be fair, I believe that the Ascents do a better
> job on violins than most other "cone" style speaker system than
> I'm aware of. However, I believe that they fall far short of
> electrostatics on producing proper timbre for violins. Again, to
> be fair, even my Apogee's fall a little short of good
> electrostatics on violins. I do feel my Apogee's are well
> beyond the Ascents in this area.
You're right again, I'm sure. But be cautious about the effects of the
Wadia and the Mark Levinson. Those were not the reference equipment used
to design those speakers. More like Jadis amps and Koetsu cartridges.
Proper timbre is much a system match problem. But I'll go along
with the theory that ES and ribbons are better. I've heard good ES
speakers and they are probably unequalled in these areas still.
> In conclusion, clearly my preference for planar speakers is still
> strong. Clearly, the Ascents don't sound like planar speakers. I
> believe the Avalons to be step forward in many directions for
> cone speaker systems. They have fantastic imaging and excellent
> balance. They had almost ES like attack on sharp transients (which
> surprised me!). Kick drums had a much quicker attack than any other
> cone speaker that I've heard. However, I remain disappointed with
> their (and all cone speakers) ability to handle strings and
> female vocals (although I've heard a few KEF's do fairly well on
> female vocals).
Bob, thanks for taking out the time to offer an opinion. It's disappointing
to find out that a $15000 speaker system is still a set of compromises,
but physics is physics. Nirvana cannot be achieved, so you have to pick
the parts you like best.
Bob Schneider
>Oh, no, I feel I'm about to eat my words :-)
Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I only meant
that I was even more "tweaked" to hear some Avalons due to your
discussions. I always like checkout new equipment.
>I never heard the Full Range or the Diva. Those were out of my price range
>and out of my size range and out of my amp size range. I'm sure they're
Yes. They are well out of my price range too. I found a pair of
used Full Range Apogees for less than a new pair of Avalon Eclipse
speakers. I should point out that (IMHO) the new Apogee's sound
different than the original Apogee's (the Full Range and the
Scintilla's). I feel that the newer Apogee's have a much more
laid back upper-mid and high end. They still have the
characteristic Apogee sound, but, I prefer my Full Range to the
Diva's under all conditions.
Your comment about the electronics is well taken. The full range
speakers *require* two amps (not recommended, required!). They
are inefficient and require lots of watts and lots of amperes. I
currently have a (used) Thre$hold S500 to handle the hungry
woofer panels and an Aragon 4004 on the mid and tweeter panels
(the "$" in the Threshold was an intentional typo). When I bought
my Apogee's, I immediately had to go out and buy a new amp (the
Aragon). So, given the cost of the Aragon 4004, and the cost of
the used Apogee's, I spent about what one would have to spend
to purchase a new set of Eclipses.
>I never heard this combo. I would have preferred hearing the Ascents with
>records, as you probably guessed. That's where their forte becomes more
>apparent. Avalons have a way of being highly unforgiving with bad CD.
Perhaps I'll lock down my SOTA and haul it down there for a
second listen if I get a chance. I do have a good idea what the
Wadia equip sounds like, so, for me it was a relatively fair
comparison. In all fairness, I'm not a Levinson fan. I'm not sure
if I'm too excited about hauling my 80lbs. S500 down to Denver to
listen to the Ascents! I considered it as good as bolted to the
floor.
>I've heard that the number one complaint from planar devotees is that this
>speaker has too short an image height. I know why. I heard maggies and
>thought they were too tall. It's what you get used to.
Perhaps. Most concerts I go to, the performer is up on a stage
and presents a soundstage height very similar to what I hear at
home (maybe a little taller). I suppose that's what I'm most
used to. Also, growing up in the "Rock" area, I still remember
lots of shows using the Hendrix "wall of amps" sound approach.
This always gave a tall sound stange as well.
I have also heard cone style speakers produce "higher" images than
the Ascents as well. I would probably put both the B&W 802's and
Vandersteen 4's in this category. However, neither of those speakers
image (left to right) as well as the Ascents, nor are they as well
balanced in their sound.
>but physics is physics. Nirvana cannot be achieved, so you have to pick
>the parts you like best.
Interesting theory. Just out of curiousity, did it apply well when
you chose your wife? :-) :-) :-) (just kidding!, just kidding!!!)
On a more serious note, I suppose this is exacty why there are so
many speaker systems on the market. I also suppose that this is
why a speaker is the most difficult component to recommend to
someone (without have a strong idea of what they enjoy hearing
the best).
Bob Schneider
Kurt Strain
ku...@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Kurt Strain) writes:
> Yes. They are well out of my price range too. I found a pair of
> used Full Range Apogees for less than a new pair of Avalon Eclipse
> speakers.
Yeah? Congratulations. Any more where they came from?
> I should point out that (IMHO) the new Apogee's sound
> different than the original Apogee's (the Full Range and the
> Scintilla's). I feel that the newer Apogee's have a much more
> laid back upper-mid and high end. They still have the
> characteristic Apogee sound, but, I prefer my Full Range to the
> Diva's under all conditions.
I'll bet the reasoning for this softening is the advent of CD's. They
are trying to be more CD compatible. Other speakers like Martin-Login
CLS's did the same.
> Perhaps I'll lock down my SOTA and haul it down there for a
> second listen if I get a chance. I do have a good idea what the
> Wadia equip sounds like, so, for me it was a relatively fair
> comparison. In all fairness, I'm not a Levinson fan. I'm not sure
> if I'm too excited about hauling my 80lbs. S500 down to Denver to
> listen to the Ascents! I considered it as good as bolted to the
> floor.
The store that sells Avalon Ascents doesn't have a turntable. What is the
world coming to?
> Most concerts I go to, the performer is up on a stage
> and presents a soundstage height very similar to what I hear at
> home (maybe a little taller). I suppose that's what I'm most
> used to. Also, growing up in the "Rock" area, I still remember
> lots of shows using the Hendrix "wall of amps" sound approach.
> This always gave a tall sound stange as well.
Yeah, but a barber shop quartet with mouths six feet high is a little
out of wack, too.
> Interesting theory. Just out of curiousity, did it apply well when
> you chose your wife? :-) :-) :-) (just kidding!, just kidding!!!)
You are now on thin ice. I see the smileys. I'll be looking out for you
now. :-)
Brian Boutel
I was lucky enough to hear the Ascents, too. As a visitor to the USA I was touristing around Berkeley, and called in to db Audio, just to have a look at what they had. A very friendly shop. I made it quite clear that I was just there to drool at the expensive stuff, and not to buy, but they gave me a lot of their time, and invited me to listen to the Ascents, driven by Jeff Rowland electronics. I chose to use cd rather than vinyl, because I was interested in hearing various external DACs.
The imaging was fantastic. I got a completely new understanding of what it means for the speakers to disappear. There was this string quartet sitting in a circle between and behind those elegant boxes. Sure they were a bit close to the floor, but I usually listen to 6ft high panels too.
One factor that contributed to the quality of the sound was the room. It had been carefully treated. Tube traps, carefully positioned hangings, but most important, no extraneous equipment. How can anyone listen properly to high-end equipment in a room full of other speakers, all passively radiating?
Fortunately, the custom followed by the better British dealers, of only having one pair of speakers in a listening room for a serious demonstration, is also followed by dealers at home in New Zealand, but so far in the USA, I have only seen one room set up like this. Are there any others?
--brian
--
Brian Boutel,
Usually br...@comp.vuw.ac.nz, but currently boutel...@cs.yale.edu
Phone (203) 432 6493
Bob Schneider
>> Scintilla's). I feel that the newer Apogee's have a much more
>> laid back upper-mid and high end. They still have the
>> characteristic Apogee sound, but, I prefer my Full Range to the
>
>I'll bet the reasoning for this softening is the advent of CD's. They
>are trying to be more CD compatible. Other speakers like Martin-Login
>CLS's did the same.
Could be. I thought that it was part of the process of producing a
more mainstream product. The original Apogee's were just too damn
heavy and too damn inefficient for the general public. They
reduced the size of the ribbons reducing the weight of the
magnets required for the speakers, etc.
>The store that sells Avalon Ascents doesn't have a turntable. What is the
>world coming to?
They used to be a Linn dealer. They may have had one hidden
somewhere, but I'm not a Linn fan anyway. (No flames please, I
just prefer the sound of a SOTA to the Linn's. That's a personal
preference).
Interestingly, I just returned to that dealer this week and they
are now powering the Ascents with VTL (tube) amps and preamp! I
didn't get a chance to listen as the Meridian factory rep was
setting up a pair of "digital speakers" and they were pretty tied
up. I also noticed that they were just uncrating a pair of
Eclipses in the back. I'll have to go back down to Denver again
and check out the Eclipses, and the Ascents powered with tube
gear.
>> Most concerts I go to, the performer is up on a stage
>> and presents a soundstage height very similar to what I hear at
>> home (maybe a little taller). I suppose that's what I'm most
>
>Yeah, but a barber shop quartet with mouths six feet high is a little
>out of wack, too.
Depends on how tall they are. :-)