VHS Hifi stereo quality?
Isaac Kuo
quality audio component (it is not my primary reason for purchasing a
stereo VCR). I am aware that some VCR's may require a video signal to
record the audio properly, but I have an NTSC Amiga output just in case.
Anyway, I read in the March Consumer Reports "Guide to the Gear" that
VHS Hifi stereo provides "near CD quality" audio, despite its analog
format. I'm no audiophile, but do the numbers really back up this claim?
In any case, the VCR I'm getting will have index search and an LED
time display, which is more than you get with most normal tape players...
and you won't get 6 continuous hours of high quality audio cheaper than
this!
P.S. This is _not_ an April Fools joke. Hifi VHS audio honestly does
have a very high bandwidth.
--
_____ Isaac Kuo (isaa...@math.berkeley.edu)
__|_>o<_|__
/___________\ Ranma: Kawaii!
\=\>-----</=/ Ukyou: Uso--<slap>
Michael Schuster
Isaac Kuo <isaa...@ragu.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>I am purchasing a stereo VCR, and wish to incidentally use it as a high
>quality audio component (it is not my primary reason for purchasing a
>stereo VCR). I am aware that some VCR's may require a video signal to
>record the audio properly, but I have an NTSC Amiga output just in case.
>
>Anyway, I read in the March Consumer Reports "Guide to the Gear" that
>VHS Hifi stereo provides "near CD quality" audio, despite its analog
>format. I'm no audiophile, but do the numbers really back up this claim?
>
> have a very high bandwidth.
Consumer Reports wouldn't know "CD quality" from a horse's ass. They shold
stick to cars and refrigerators, because on the tech stuff they simply
don't know what they're talking about!
This is simply another example of being misled by specs. Yes, the
bandwidth may be wide, and the S/N may be on the high side, but VHS HiFi
is nowhere near "CD quality".
Why? D-I-S-T-O-R-T-I-O-N
1. compander artifacts
VHS HiFi uses a dbx-like compander in in order to achieve noise
reduction. This introduces VERY obvious artifacts when played back,
especially when compounded with the problems in #2 and #3. Listen to
sibilants and you'll hear that roar surrounding each of them. Blecch.
2. head switching noise
The HiFi track is read discontinuously by two heads rotating 180
degrees apart. Half way into each rotation, the audio input stream is
switched from one head to another. Even if this head switching point is
adjusted precisely for the tape being played back (which may now be worn,
stretched, etc ... see #3) there will be a thud when the heads switch.
This translates into a 60 cycle "drumming" noise in the background, which
also gets pumped up and down in level by the dbx expander.
3. mistracking
VHS "HiFi" is much more sensitive to tracking than the video
portion of the signal. Normal wear and tear on the mechanism, stretching
of the tape from repeated use, and inter-machine differences can make
tapes unplayable ... or at least more prone to mistrack.
Summary: use some other medium to archive your precious audio.
--
Mike Schuster | schu...@panix.com | 70346...@CompuServe.COM
------------------- | schu...@shell.portal.com | GEnie: MSCHUSTER
Frank Hielscher
>>Anyway, I read in the March Consumer Reports "Guide to the Gear" that
>>VHS Hifi stereo provides "near CD quality" audio, despite its analog
>>format. I'm no audiophile, but do the numbers really back up this claim?
Then schu...@panix.com (Michael Schuster) writes:
> Consumer Reports ...... (derogatory comments deleted). This is simply
> another example of being misled by specs. Yes, the bandwidth may be
> wide, and the S/N may be on the high side, but VHS HiFi is nowhere near
> "CD quality".>Why? D-I-S-T-O-R-T-I-O-N .....(technical comments deleted).
It is not useful to make a direct comparison between analog and digital
recording procedures (apples versus oranges). Despite Michael's disparaging
remarks, VHS HiFi is indeed a very useful way of recording audio. The
technique is based on FM modulation (carrier frequency of 1MHz or so), and
has been used since the 1930's for the highest quality recording of lower
frequency signals (less than 1/10 of the carrier).
From a practical standpoint, VHS HiFi is far better (and cheaper!) than any
other analog tape recording process. Large dynamic range (80-some dB), very
large frequency response (down to DC, of the modulation circuit permits),
and very long recording times (up to 8 hours on a long tape, for less than $3).
No, VHS HiHi is not a digital technology. But as an analog medium it has
been totally unappreciated.
For those who have lots of old LP records which they want to "save", VHS HiFi
is a beautifully inexpensive way to do it. It's also a very acceptable way
to record many hours of continuous music compiled from different CDs.
Distortion? I am sure that people with "golden ears" can hear some, but I
have not heard any on my system.
Frank Hielscher, Lehigh University
AFL GeneS
writes:
> This is simply another example of being misled by specs. Yes, the
> bandwidth may be wide, and the S/N may be on the high side, but VHS
> HiFi is nowhere near "CD quality".
I'm not summarizing your entire message here because of its length. The points
you raise are given--they are the limitations of the VHS Hi-Fi technique. But
good quality decks and improvements in product design have largely minimized
and virtually eliminated the sonic effects of these shortcomings. I do not
experience them in my Sony SVHS deck, and very rarely in my older Zenith (JVC)
VHS Hi-Fi unit.
Another point:
Although Consumer Reports doesn't not address much beyond mainstream
audio/video, they do use listening panels in their testing process. Assuming
these folks aren't deaf, and I have little doubt that some care is made in
choosing such listeners, the sound characteristics you describe would be
clearly audible if they were prevalent to any marked degree.
Peace,
Gene Steinberg
Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Systems
> I'm not summarizing your entire message here because of its length. The points
> you raise are given--they are the limitations of the VHS Hi-Fi technique. But
> good quality decks and improvements in product design have largely minimized
> and virtually eliminated the sonic effects of these shortcomings. I do not
> experience them in my Sony SVHS deck, and very rarely in my older Zenith (JVC)
> VHS Hi-Fi unit.
Maybe not now. But don't commit anything you really care about to VHS HiFi.
Those decks just may not be in the same alignment the next time you play them.
> Another point:
>
> Although Consumer Reports doesn't not address much beyond mainstream
> audio/video, they do use listening panels in their testing process. Assuming
> these folks aren't deaf, and I have little doubt that some care is made in
> choosing such listeners, the sound characteristics you describe would be
> clearly audible if they were prevalent to any marked degree.
I've yet to see them claim that they used listening tests to verify their claim
that VHS HiFi yields CD-quality audio. I'll bet they just ran the basic freq
response and S/N tests (which provide no clue as to compander artifacts,
head-switching noise when moving tapes between decks, the truly horrible
effects of video tape dropouts on the HiFi audio track, etc.), looked at the
numbers, said "yep, those are like the numbers for Compact Disc", and printed
the claim.
--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Systems, San Diego CA
Internet: j...@cmkrnl.com (JH645) Uucp: uunet!cmkrnl!jeh CompuServe: 74140,2055
Bill Vermillion
Frank Hielscher <hiel...@aragorn.CSEE.Lehigh.Edu> wrote:
>>Isaac Kuo <isaa...@ragu.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>Anyway, I read in the March Consumer Reports "Guide to the Gear" that
>>>VHS Hifi stereo provides "near CD quality" audio, despite its analog
>>>format.
>Then schu...@panix.com (Michael Schuster) writes:
>> Consumer Reports ...... (derogatory comments deleted). This is simply
>> another example of being misled by specs.
>It is not useful to make a direct comparison between analog and digital
>recording procedures (apples versus oranges). Despite Michael's disparaging
>remarks, VHS HiFi is indeed a very useful way of recording audio.
However the problem remains that a VCR is designed for video
with audio as the secondary thought.
The analog stages of audio are quite critical for really good
recordings - whether it is cassette, reel-reel, digital, etc.
VHS HiFi (or Beta HiFi) may be good methods to get decent audio
recorded. But one mans 'near CD quality' may be anothers 'boy
that really sucks'.
>For those who have lots of old LP records which they want to "save", VHS HiFi
>is a beautifully inexpensive way to do it. It's also a very acceptable way
>to record many hours of continuous music compiled from different CDs.
>
>Distortion? I am sure that people with "golden ears" can hear some, but I
>have not heard any on my system.
If you have a really good turntable and/or system - you might
hear the difference. It doesn't really take 'golden ears' to
tell that.
I used to work in the recording industry. I have (had) well
trained ears - but by no means 'golden'. The one person whom
I truly regarded as having 'golden ears' - said he didn't have
them. While the few that I have met claiming to have 'golden
ears' demonstrated that they really couldn't hear what those of
us with ordinary but trained ears heard.
VCR's are okay for good recording but they certainly don't hold
a candle to good devices that are designed primarily for audio
which optimize their audio circuits.
--
Bill Vermillion - bi...@bilver.oau.org | bill.ve...@oau.org
Scott Fisher
>Then schu...@panix.com (Michael Schuster) writes:
>> Consumer Reports ...... (derogatory comments deleted). This is simply
>> another example of being misled by specs. Yes, the bandwidth may be
>> wide, and the S/N may be on the high side, but VHS HiFi is nowhere near
>> "CD quality".>Why? D-I-S-T-O-R-T-I-O-N .....(technical comments deleted).
[deleted...]
>Distortion? I am sure that people with "golden ears" can hear some, but I
>have not heard any on my system.
I have a Panasonic N66a Hi-Fi Vid. I have had quite a few years experience
with recording LP, CD and Live sounds to Multi-track recorders, DAT, Compact
Cassette and Samplers. This topic pops up reguarly here, the short of it is
Yes some video recorders sound woeful
Yes some video recorders are superb and exibit none of the artifacts described
above. My Panasonic is one such recorder...used as a backup for CD, LP, DAT,
and other master recordings.
Regards Scott.
PS. Don't judge all Hi-Fi video sound on a sample of 1 and a few bad reviews
that are 10 years old.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Scott Fisher [sc...@psy.uwa.oz.au] PH: Aus [61] Perth (09) Local (380 3272).
_--_|\ N
Department of Psychology / \ W + E
University of Western Australia. Perth [32S, 116E]--> *_.--._/ S
Nedlands, 6009. PERTH, W.A. v
Joy is a Jaguar XJ6 with a flat battery, a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic
wife, 9km outside of a small remote town, 3:15am on a cold wet winters morning.
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