Hi-fi stereo VCR as audio-only recorder question
Chris Sullivan
>In article <3...@rama.UUCP>, j...@rama.UUCP (James D. Cronin) writes:
>>
>> deck? The machines are cheap (~$300), blank tapes are cheap
>> (say $3 or $4), and you get to use it for watching the tube, too.
>First, consider that you are buying a whole VCR with hi-fi circuitry for about
>the price of a good (not great) cassette deck. What does this tell you about
I think this is comparing technological apples and oranges.
The fact that it is more expensive to build a good or great cassette deck
IMHO has to do with the size of the tape and its speed over the head.
>Second... that wonderful signal-to-noise ratio is achieved by the use of a
>VERY aggressive compander (about 2.5 to 1). Like all companders, the effects
My VHS-Hi-Fi deck gives you the option of no compander if you don't want to
use it. It also has better meters than those described. I would like to
have better level controls though (they're small to fit on the front panel, and
I don't like sliders). And playback as you record is not offered.
>Third... dropouts. On video a dropout is a brief streak of odd-colored stuff.
>On audio the dropout is a horrible glitch.
Dropouts are always a possibilty, but use of a good tape will usually prevent
them. Also some decks detect them and cut the sound (it's pretty easy to detect
loss of carrier, so I wouldn't expect to pay a whole lot more for the feature).
These decks will also cut the burps that happen between recordings sometimes,
due to the sync changing too quickly. My solution for that is to press Record
while the tape is rolling (playback) so the sync stays constant.
If I were designing one, I would have it substitute a Dolby-coded longtitudinal
track signal in the event of a drop-out, instead of silence, as an option.
I just haven't had a significant problem with drop-outs. Maybe when my tapes
get really old, I will.
>Fourth... head-switching noise. New machines generally do not exhibit this
>problem. Old machines do.
>Fifth... speed drift. As the machine ages its speed changes. It is still
Cassette and 1/4 inch tape machines also age, with differing degrees of
problems depending on the design. Regular service can reduce the problems in
both types of technology. You might argue that casstte "fails soft" in
comparison to VHS-Hi-Fi, but if it's worn out, fix it or ditch it. Also, I
wonder how spectacular a DAT deck is when it goes off the rails... depends
if it has good error-detection I guess.
>In general... VHS HiFi is great for its intended purpose... which is providing
>good-quality soundtracks to accompany movies. But if you want a high-quality
>audio recorder, buy one. If you want long recording time, buy a DAT deck (4
>hours in LP mode) or a large-reel R-to-R machine with autoreverse (six hours
>with one-mil tape).
VHS-Hi-Fi gets 8 hours on a T-160 and the quality at the lower speed is the
same as the higher (in contrast to the video quality which is markedly lower).
I like my VHS-Hi-Fi deck and have many hours of audio-only tapes. The long
tape time is great for archiving old cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes, and
the convenience of the VHS cassette versus reel-threading should be mentioned
too. One tape holds quite a few CDs and my ears are not golden enough to hear
the difference.
If I could afford the money and living room space for more audio gear I would
buy a (professional - don't forget copy limiting) DAT deck. In the meantime,
I set the speed to EP and use my remote! (It is not my only recorder,
but if I had to choose, I'd probably pick the VHS deck because it's also my
VCR.)
Chris Sullivan
(ch...@gandalf.ca)
Daren McClearnon
On mine (a cheapo Emerson), I had to supply a dummy video signal so that the
VCR's craving for a sync would be satisfied. Since I have a camcorder, I just
tape the album cover or whatever. As for sound quality, it's good enough,
but not great; we're taking about the convenience of 6-8 hours of unattended
party music, not "fine audio." Tight editing is an oxymoron here. As for
signal-to-noise, my machine makes more mechanical noise than any hiss I can
amplify (unless I'm recording an album - a deliberate poke-in-the-eyes to all
you Analog-The-One-True-Medium types).
This is something I haven't done since I bought my multi-disc CD carousel.
dBm.
j...@cmkrnl.uucp
(Chris Sullivan) writes:
> In <1991Sep8....@cmkrnl.uucp> j...@cmkrnl.uucp writes:
>
>>First, consider that you are buying a whole VCR with hi-fi circuitry for about
>>the price of a good (not great) cassette deck. What does this tell you about
>
> I think this is comparing technological apples and oranges.
>
> The fact that it is more expensive to build a good or great cassette deck
> IMHO has to do with the size of the tape and its speed over the head.
The cassette mechanism in a typical cassette deck costs the manufacturer a
whopping five bucks or so. In an expensive unit with dual capstans and
separate reel motors, maybe fifteen bucks.
VHS tape speeds are about the same or slower than cassette speeds, and while
the tape is larger it must be positioned on the heads MUCH more accurately
than cassette tape does, or else the picture will tear up (and, shortly
afterward, the tape and/or the video heads will tear up).
>>Second... that wonderful signal-to-noise ratio is achieved by the use of a
>>VERY aggressive compander (about 2.5 to 1). Like all companders, the effects
>
> My VHS-Hi-Fi deck gives you the option of no compander if you don't want to
> use it.
No, it doesn't. It gives you the option of disabling the auto record level
circuit. The "compander" I am talking about is not the auto record level
circuit. Without the compander you would get an S/N of maybe 25 dB.
> It also has better meters than those described.
Fine, but many do not.
> I just haven't had a significant problem with drop-outs. Maybe when my tapes
> get really old, I will.
I too use VHS HiFi, for things like recording radio shows, and I haven't
had a significant problem with dropouts either. But the problem is there and
it is bad enough to preclude the use of these machines in applications that
require either high-quality reel-to-reel or some form of digital.
>>Fourth... head-switching noise.... Fifth... speed drift.
>
> Cassette and 1/4 inch tape machines also age, with differing degrees of
> problems depending on the design. Regular service can reduce the problems in
> both types of technology.
True. What happens when you buy a new one? If you're dealing with cassette
or r-to-r, and your previous machine was maintained "in spec", your new
machine will be able to play the tapes made on the old one. This is not
guaranteed with VHS HiFi! You may have to take your new deck in and have it
tweaked to be compatible with your old tapes.
> I like my VHS-Hi-Fi deck and have many hours of audio-only tapes. The long
> tape time is great for archiving old cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes, and
> the convenience of the VHS cassette versus reel-threading should be mentioned
> too. One tape holds quite a few CDs and my ears are not golden enough to hear
> the difference.
As I said...the compander effects are audible at *some* points on *some*
program material. You may never notice it. You may also never notice the
fact that VHS HiFi does a downright lousy job of rendering low-level musical
detail while there is high-level stuff going on at the same time. But that's
the way it is.
As for the "convenience" of putting eight hours' worth of cassettes or CDs on
one tape, I would much rather have them as discrete cassettes or CDs.
Tape loading, fast forward, and rewind on videocassettes just take too long;
winding through 5/6 or so of a videocassette just to play an album is far from
"convenient". For my taste.
But in general, if you are happy with the sound of cassette tapes, you will
probably be happy with the sound of VHS HiFi. They each have their faults,
but they have *different* faults, making a direct comparison difficult.
I'm not saying that VHS HiFi is bad. Nor am I saying that anyone "ought not to
like it". Nor am I saying that it doesn't have perfectly valid uses.
But I am saying that it is nowhere near as good as it is often claimed to be
(which is to say, usable as a replacement for a good reel-to-reel deck). It is
true that the frequency response and signal-to-noise ratio specs make it look
that good, but there's a lot more to sound quality than can be summed up by
those two specs.
--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego CA
Internet: j...@dcs.simpact.com, hanr...@eisner.decus.org, or j...@crash.cts.com
Uucp: ...{crash,eisner,uunet}!cmkrnl!jeh
Lon Stowell
>
>VHS tape speeds are about the same or slower than cassette speeds, and while
>the tape is larger it must be positioned on the heads MUCH more accurately
>than cassette tape does, or else the picture will tear up (and, shortly
>afterward, the tape and/or the video heads will tear up).
>
on a VCR is much higher...it has to be in order to record 2-3
MHz signals...on which the Hi-Fi tracks are FM'd.
>>
>> My VHS-Hi-Fi deck gives you the option of no compander if you don't want to
>> use it.
>
>No, it doesn't. It gives you the option of disabling the auto record level
>circuit. The "compander" I am talking about is not the auto record level
>circuit. Without the compander you would get an S/N of maybe 25 dB.
>
This is true of VHS Hi-Fi. Those OF's with Beta Hi-Fi
don't have companders in the record/playback chain.
As noted by several posters though, in practice a Hi-Fi deck
just doesn't provide the quality of a GOOD cassette and
certainly not a decent open reel. It wasn't designed to...ir
was designed for decent sound where the presence of the video
tends to make the listener ignore some of the unpleasant audio
artifacts. Some find the audio quality adequate...some
don't.
IMHO if you want decent sound from a VCR, use a PCM unit.
John W. Kale
In a previous article, quinn@ascutney (Jerry Quinn) says:
>
>All of the talk so far has been about making hi-fi vcr's use the
>stereo-track portion of the tape. Is there a reasonable method of
>making the vcr use the whole tape for audio-only? I would think that
>being able to use the whole tape would result in very high quality of
>signal.
The Hi-Fi audio tracks in a Hi-Fi VCR do use the entire extent
of the tape. A Hi-Fi VCR is equipped with an extra pair of rotating
heads, which record the audio as a frequnecy moduated signal along with
the video. The carrier frequency is chosen so as not to interfere with
the video information recorded in the same place. The principles are
much the same as for FM radio, but the wide bandwidth of the VCR allows
the audio quality to be much higher than for FM radio.
There was (and I presume, still is) one system whereby the video
tracks could be used to record audio information: A PCM unit was
attatched to the VCR's "video in" jacks, and the VCR became a great big
DAT deck, recording and playing back fully digital, CD quality sound.
This system was often quite expensive, however, ($800-$1500) and the
arrival of DAT has likely reduced the market to the canishing point.
-John
--
"Life is a God-damned, stinking, treacherous game and nine hundred
and ninety-nine out of a thousand men are bastards." -Theodore Dreiser
"The meaning of life is that it stops." -Franz Kofka
Brendan Jones
audio. People have talked about head-switching noise, bad companding, etc.
Has it occurred to you that either:
* You have a lousy Hi-Fi VCR
* NTSC VCRs are inherently crummy because of the lousy standard :-)
In Australia, we use the PAL TV standard. My Hi-Fi VCR (Panasonic H-70) gives
SUPERB sound. No head switching noise (confirmed by recording nothing at
minus infinity dB record level and playing it back LOUD), no noticeable
compander problems, and only a slight loss of high-end compared to CD.
My Hi-Fi VCR walks all over my Vector Research cassette deck (which is one of
the better cassette decks I've heard) and IMO is as good if not better than
any reel-to-reel deck I've heard.
Tape hiss is non-existant on my Hi-Fi deck, but I can hear tape hiss on a
reel-to-reel. Remember that the head-to-tape speed on a Hi-Fi VCR is of the
order of 4 *metres* per second!! This is two orders of magnitude better than
a reel-to-reel deck!
Complaints about the portability, loading time etc of VHS tapes are recognised,
but if you're only talking audio, methinks only CD, DAT and PCM beats Hi-Fi
video.
I don't have problems with it - why does everyone else??
--
Brendan Jones | ACSnet: bre...@otc.otca.oz.au | What does
R&D Contractor | UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!otc.otca.oz.au!brendan | your
Services R&D | Phone: (02)2873128 Fax: (02)2873299 | company
|||| OTC || | Snail: GPO Box 7000 Sydney 2001, AUSTRALIA | export?
S.S.Sturrock
>I don't understand why so many people here think that Hi-Fi VCRs have lousy
>audio. People have talked about head-switching noise, bad companding, etc.
>
>Has it occurred to you that either:
> * You have a lousy Hi-Fi VCR
> * NTSC VCRs are inherently crummy because of the lousy standard :-)
>
>In Australia, we use the PAL TV standard. My Hi-Fi VCR (Panasonic H-70) gives
>SUPERB sound. No head switching noise (confirmed by recording nothing at
>minus infinity dB record level and playing it back LOUD), no noticeable
>compander problems, and only a slight loss of high-end compared to CD.
I also have a PAL hifi Video, it does not give superb sound, it is
acceptable, there is no noticible head switch noise when I record silence,
it is with the changing dynamics of music that it all falls apart. I no
longer use the hifi sound through my hifi because of the infernal flapping
which drives me up the wall, something I have noticed with ALL hifi VHS
machines. I do not notice much loss of high end but I do notice a loss
over low level, quiet information, the sound stage is sterilised.
>
>My Hi-Fi VCR walks all over my Vector Research cassette deck (which is one of
>the better cassette decks I've heard) and IMO is as good if not better than
>any reel-to-reel deck I've heard.
There is no way that a hifi video could touch a reel-to-reel. Also, mine
does not get close to my NAD monitor cassette machine.
>
>Tape hiss is non-existant on my Hi-Fi deck, but I can hear tape hiss on a
>reel-to-reel. Remember that the head-to-tape speed on a Hi-Fi VCR is of the
>order of 4 *metres* per second!! This is two orders of magnitude better than
>a reel-to-reel deck!
Also remember that a hifi deck is frequency modulated and companded or else
you would get nowhere due to 25db S/N
>
>Complaints about the portability, loading time etc of VHS tapes are recognised,
>but if you're only talking audio, methinks only CD, DAT and PCM beats Hi-Fi
>video.
And LP beats the lot!
>I don't have problems with it - why does everyone else??
>
Because you are obviously not very fussy about sound quality.
Shane Sturrock, BioComputing, Biological Laboratory,
University of Kent, \
Canterbury, (}:-( That is Biological Captain.
Great Britain. /
--------------------------------------------------------
Would you like some toast?
No, no! No toast, baps, bagels, croissants,
and definitely no smegging flapjacks!
Ah, so you're a waffle man!
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Chris Christensen
>In article <32...@otc.otca.oz> bre...@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones) writes:
>>I don't understand why so many people here think that Hi-Fi VCRs have lousy
>>audio. People have talked about head-switching noise, bad companding, etc.
(Misc text deleted)
S.S. Sturrock bristles up and says:
>I also have a PAL hifi Video, it does not give superb sound, it is
>acceptable, there is no noticible head switch noise when I record silence,
>it is with the changing dynamics of music that it all falls apart. I no
>longer use the hifi sound through my hifi because of the infernal flapping
>which drives me up the wall, something I have noticed with ALL hifi VHS
>machines. I do not notice much loss of high end but I do notice a loss
>over low level, quiet information, the sound stage is sterilised.
Through some strong opinions come fact and fallacies!
You will not hear any head switch noise when you record silence
because the companding will "close down" and effectivley squelch out
any head switch noise. What you heed to do is to record a 20 kHz tone
on the tape and play it back. The tone will "open" the companding and
let the head switch come through. On a properly functioning unit I
think you will find the head switch noise about 40 dB below 0vu.
By the way the head switch will be at 59.94/2 for NTSC and 50/2 for
PAL. The head switch noise is a narrow spike at the rep rate. The
spike contains harmonic energy that gives it it's characteristic
sound.
I have done a good deal of live recording to VHS Hi-Fi (we're talking a
couple of hundred hours) What I have heard and measured is head switch
noise and modulated head switch noise.
The head switch is effected by the dynamics of the recorded sound. By
the way of the companding feature.
Most of the recordings I have done are live classical works that have
the normal room noise and 50+ dB of dynamic range in the music. I do
find it discerning that their is noise modulation at the low level
passages but I don't hear any collapse of the sound stage (I attribute
part of this to having a mental image of the actual sound stage as
I recorded it).
NOTE: I am clearly able to hear the head switch noise artifacts however I
can't allow my life to be upset by it (see below).
I have recently "switched" to DAT for my recording. It has it's own
audible problems.
I have also found that unless an artifact is clearly pointed out to
someone that most people can't hear the little things that make up the
FAQ's of audio.
>>My Hi-Fi VCR walks all over my Vector Research cassette deck (which is one of
>>the better cassette decks I've heard) and IMO is as good if not better than
>>any reel-to-reel deck I've heard.
>There is no way that a hifi video could touch a reel-to-reel. Also, mine
>does not get close to my NAD monitor cassette machine.
Each recording medium has it's own specific drawbacks. Your opinion
is yous, the posters is his, and mine is mine. I like the three mediums
mentioned (Hi-Fi-, R-R and Cassette) equally for their specific uses.
>Also remember that a hifi deck is frequency modulated and companded or else
>you would get nowhere due to 25db S/N
I don't know where you are comming from with this comment. The fact
that it is FM probably nets 50 dB S+N/R and is effected by the
discriminator. The companding "adds" the next 30 dB S+N/R.
>>Complaints about the portability, loading time etc of VHS tapes are recognised
>>but if you're only talking audio, methinks only CD, DAT and PCM beats Hi-Fi
>>video.
>And LP beats the lot!
I was wondering when you would deal the death blow! I hope that this
doesn't kick off another mindless discussion on LP vs the world!
Remember that most LP's started from R-R tape!
(For the humor impared- the above comment is sincere and ment to be
presented lightly).
>>I don't have problems with it - why does everyone else??
>Because you are obviously not very fussy about sound quality.
I will bet you he is just as fussy, he probably doesn't let minor
flaws in sound effect his enjoyment of it. And please don't take this
as a put down to you Mr. Sturrock. I have trained myself to be as
fussy as I need to be. If I am watching a movie I won't let bad
sound effect my enjoyment (it is a real plus if the sound is good,
though).
I don't listen to sound seriously unless I am in the studio or doing a
live sound job where I am mixing. Then I pull out the stops.
The psychology of the thing is this, (and It's not my statement, I'm
just relaying the facts) Most people can not hear more than three
things at once. Everyone is effected by the additional information
and you can switch the thought process to acquire different sets of
the three. The trained ear (good live/recording engineer, orchestra
conductor and most musicians) can hear four or more things at a time.
My point is that if you waste "bandwith" by listening for the defects
you may miss something you like!
Happy Listening to you (you too Shane!).
--
Chris Christensen The opinions I express are my own,
chr...@gold.gvg.tek.com and sometimes they are wrong!
916-478-3419 I am only human.
Bill Vermillion
>In Australia, we use the PAL TV standard. My Hi-Fi VCR (Panasonic H-70) gives
>SUPERB sound. No head switching noise (confirmed by recording nothing at
>minus infinity dB record level and playing it back LOUD), no noticeable
>compander problems, and only a slight loss of high-end compared to CD.
Well all that will show you is the residual noise. In order for the
compansion circuitry to be effective you will need to record something.
This had been born out by experinces with other comansion type circuitry.
You wan't to hear something really strange. Listen (if you can find one)
to the dbx encoded disks. Absolute silence when there is no music, and
then the strangest noise pumping when the music starts.
Try it again with a low level signal, and turn the signal on an off, and
then report back. I'd be interested to know if they have overcome this
artifact of most of the compansion circuitry I have heard.
--
Bill Vermillion - UUCP: ...!tarpit!bilver!bill
: bi...@bilver.UUCP
Norm Strong
}In article <1991Sep10....@cmkrnl.uucp> j...@cmkrnl.uucp writes:
}>
}>VHS tape speeds are about the same or slower than cassette speeds, and while
}>the tape is larger it must be positioned on the heads MUCH more accurately
}>than cassette tape does, or else the picture will tear up (and, shortly
}>afterward, the tape and/or the video heads will tear up).
}>
} The LINEAR speed might be, but the effective scanning speed
} on a VCR is much higher...it has to be in order to record 2-3
} MHz signals...on which the Hi-Fi tracks are FM'd.
Specifically, 1.3Mhz for the left channel, and 1.8Mhz for the right.
That's why troubles usually show up first on the right channel.
--
Norm Strong (str...@tc.fluke.com)
2528 31st S. Seattle WA 98144 USA