Marantz 7--Why so expensive??
David Anderson
Hi,
I don't want to start a price-flame war, but I'm simply curious as to why
Marantz 7 preamps command such high prices compared to other tube preamps
of their era.
I've looked at a schematic for the Marantz preamp, and it appears to me to
be a well-implemented, but fairly conventional, design. I have seen one
opened up for service, before, though I've never heard one in operation,
and the only unusual thing I noticed was the placement of the tubes. In
fact, it doesn't seem to differ too much in terms of circuit design from
the McIntosh C22 preamp, which I've seen offered at somewhat lower prices.
In fact, for $2-3K, it seems to me that you could build a really good
preamp--one that had far fewer switches in the signal path than the
Marantz 7 and one that had things like a stepped attenuator volume
control. For that matter, it wouldn't be hard to duplicate the Marantz
design. Power amps are harder to copy due to the output transformers, but
preamps are generally built from commonly available parts.
So, are the high prices just due to collectors value--the thrill one gets
from owning something with a certain name and number on it--or is there
something else that I'm missing?
Regards,
David Anderson
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Fred Whitlock
collector items as you say. The price for them was very inflated due a lot
of interest in them from collectors in Asia. With the economic crunch
there, the prices seem to have gone down a little but it's still a collector
marketplace, not an audiophile one. Good listening.
Fred
AudioNow!
http://www.audionow.com
Mjzuccaro
Thank God it's the Marantz stuff and some Mcintosh thats pricey and not the
Fisher,Scott,Dyna,Heath,HK,etc.This stuff is still affordable and usually very
well built.I say that if we Americans were stupid enough to sell this stuff out
of the country (dealers-you know who you are),we don't deserve to have it made
available to us cheaply anymore.So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially to
dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
Best,
Mike Zuccaro
Lennard Kong
Unless you live in a 3rd world country where there are people
who have tube eq ready to throw away as junk.
I picked up Marantz 7 for less than the equivalent of $800.00US
Naturally I don't plan on parting with it. I do need a new face plate
and knobs though.
Lennard Kong
Fredric J. Einstein
<len...@ns1.carib-link.net> wrote:
>Naturally I don't plan on parting with it. I do need a new face plate
>and knobs though.
>
>
>Lennard Kong
VAC still has faceplates and knobs from their reproduction Marantz
7C's. I'd check their web site and call their parts department.
KEVIN DEAL / UPSCALE AUDIO
Jpchleapas wrote in message <19981020213429...@ng144.aol.com>...
>>
>>Fred:
>>Thank God it's the Marantz stuff and some Mcintosh thats pricey and not
the
>>Fisher,Scott,Dyna,Heath,HK,etc.This stuff is still affordable and usually
>>very
>>well built.I say that if we Americans were stupid enough to sell this
stuff
>>out
>>of the country (dealers-you know who you are),we don't deserve to have it
>>made
>>available to us cheaply anymore.So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially
to
>>dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
>>Best,
>>Mike Zuccaro
>
>
> Sadly it is not _only_ stereo gear they want. They (Japanese) are also
buying
>out art, and our classic 60's and 70's muscle cars. To my horror there was
a
>post on the Corral which is a big web site for 5.0 and all Mustang owners
and
>enthusiasts. They were and are looking to buy our classic muscle cars like
>classic Shelby's and 427 Cobras. They load them onto containers and ship
them
>to Japan. Isn't that sad. I e-mailed that "American Pimp" who was acting as
the
>middleman for $$$ and told him to "bite-me
Eloquently put. Japs.
They also collect them in Holland and Belgium...but the buyers have round
eyes, so that's OK? How about the motorcycle buyers from Brazil? Very
active here in L.A.
Keep in mind that I'm importing most all the tubes I sell. For consumption
by American buyers. Americans also buy antiquities from all over the
world...taking "national treasures" that range from art (primitive to
whatever) to fossils to Ming Vases (What???? From Asia???)
One thing I can say is that the Asian guys I know that collect stuff respect
it, keep it original, and treasure it. And they love it, just like you do.
One local Korean guy just brought back a bunch of Mac from Korea.
Americans, on the other hand, buy fossils at mall stores just because they
are there then after they become boring put them in a landfill.
Regards,
Kevin Deal Voice: (909) 931-9686 Fax: (909) 985-6968 10-6 pst Mon-Sat
Upscale Audio 2504 Spring Terrace, Upland, California 91784
Precision Selected Rare Audio Tubes ***** Factory Authorized Dealer for:
Audible Illusions *** Balanced Audio Technology *** Sonic Frontiers *** B&K
Golden Tube Audio *** Anthem *** Presence *** Von Schweikert Research
Meadowlark *** PSB *** Eminent Technology *** Speakercraft *** Odyssey
Nordost Flatline *** Basis *** Benz *** Nitty Gritty *** Kimber Kable & more
David Anderson
Kevin,
Exceptionally well put. Americans have little moral high ground to stand
on when it comes to "acquiring" the treasures of other countries. At
least the foreign nationals who buy tube gear in the US aren't simply
stealing it--a practice subsidized by many art and antiquities collectors
in the US. I recently saw a program showing how the Cambodian temple of
Angkor Wat is being pillaged.
It was an ugly comment, and I think Mike should apologize, especially if
he is soliciting repair business from members of this newsgroup.
Who would have thought a straightforward question would lead to this?
David
macfa...@hotmail.com
dav...@humnet.ucla.edu (David Anderson) wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I don't want to start a price-flame war, but I'm simply curious as to why
> Marantz 7 preamps command such high prices compared to other tube preamps
> of their era.
>>snip>
> David Anderson
Hi David,
I agree with you completely.
Vintage preamps (including the overpriced model 7) are really NOT that great.
Most of them are quite noisy and less than transparent.
I used to own a McIntosh C20 a few years ago. It was not as "fantastic" as I
thought. It was very noisy I must say. I pulled out the Telefunken tubes and
sold it. I now run my CD player directly into my amp. The other preamps I own
are in the shelf.
Regards,
Nestor
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jpchleapas
>Fred:
>Thank God it's the Marantz stuff and some Mcintosh thats pricey and not the
>Fisher,Scott,Dyna,Heath,HK,etc.This stuff is still affordable and usually
>very
>well built.I say that if we Americans were stupid enough to sell this stuff
>out
>of the country (dealers-you know who you are),we don't deserve to have it
>made
>available to us cheaply anymore.So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially to
>dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
>Best,
>Mike Zuccaro
Mike,
Sadly it is not _only_ stereo gear they want. They (Japanese) are also buying
out art, and our classic 60's and 70's muscle cars. To my horror there was a
post on the Corral which is a big web site for 5.0 and all Mustang owners and
enthusiasts. They were and are looking to buy our classic muscle cars like
classic Shelby's and 427 Cobras. They load them onto containers and ship them
to Japan. Isn't that sad. I e-mailed that "American Pimp" who was acting as the
middleman for $$$ and told him to "bite-me." Please do not sell them our
treasures. I am new to this great tube audio but I hope and pray the '73 T/A I
sold to a collector in 1988 is still in this country. The thought of that car
being one of 254 built sitting in a rich Japanese industrialist's warehouse
sickens me. If they are so bloody creative why are they not merely content to
keep old toyotas and nissan's and Sony transistor stereo gear from the 1960's.
The answer is because the stuff they copy and clone $ucks. Hang onto the old
gear people..
John Chleapas
Maynard, MA
PAUL MACCA
>Thank God it's the Marantz stuff and some Mcintosh thats pricey and not the
>Fisher,Scott,Dyna,Heath,HK,etc.This stuff is still affordable and usually
>very
>well built.I say that if we Americans were stupid enough to sell this stuff
>out
>of the country (dealers-you know who you are),we don't deserve to have it
>made
>available to us cheaply anymore.So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially to
>dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
Say what?
Speaking as an American of part-Japanese ancestry, I find your use of the term
"Jap" to be highly offensive and is no more acceptable than referring to an
African-American as being a 6-letter word starting with the letter N.
Up until now, I have never encountered such an ignorant and insensitive
attitude among tube lovers, whether it be in person or on the net. I am just
grateful that the vast majority of them have a much more open-minded and
enlightened attitude toward minorities.
Mike Wolfe
was way out of line. Please be careful with posts, especially when something
has got you charged up. Complete your message, then sit back, take a deep
breath and read it to yourself. At that point remove the garbage then post
it. This concludes this session of Internet etiquette 101.
Regards,
Michael Wolfe
Field Engineer
Vanstar Corporation
A Technology Services Company
Mjzuccaro
Sorry if I offended anyone by saying "japs" instead of Japanese regarding the
loss of our stuff-not just hifi,but cars,records,etc. Years ago (1983) I
worked for Sony and was surprised at what I overheard the Japanese employees
saying about Americans I can tell you the average Japanese Sony employee worked
a 10 hour day,6 day week.Regularly.And a half day on Sunday was not uncommon.
So their perception of us as lazy was not unwarranted. .I recall clearly that
our department (consumer electronics-tv and hifi) got a fantastic monthly
Japanese hifi publication of eye-popping systems made up almost entirely of
Western Electric,Mcintosh and Marantz gear.It was all written in Japanese which
I couldnt read but the construction artciles (schematics) were all for vintage
American gear.Even then my Japanese co-workers were surprised that we Americans
would ever let this stuff go.They often commented on the easy availability of
this stuff and how cheaply it could be had.I don't remember any worry on their
part about ancient Japanese art being pillaged,just that they wanted everything
they could find to send home.Once they found out what I had I had,in the space
of ONE week,thirty phone calls and Faxes (some from Sony HQ in Japan!) asking
me not if I wanted to sell,but "you have-whats the price?" .Finally had to make
it clear to one and all that nothing was for sale or trade and they finally
quit.These guys were not so much interested in the stuff themselves-they wanted
it,primarily but not exclusively,to resell it. That much was clear since they
told me! I learned a LOT on that job,and not just about Sony products.History
teaches lessons which ought not be forgotten.A year at Sony reenforced
this.Amazing what I learned by just listening.Much later I got into collecting
and restoring jukeboxes and found that containerloads were going overseas to
various asian lands,Japan mostly.Also slot machines,pinballs,and records .And
whatever musclecars and 50's classics could be found.Lots of other
countries,too.Personally I think it would be a fair trade if we all gave back
everything we bought from each other and called it
square.Furniture,vases,paintings,flowerpots,books,whatever .I just
really,really hate to see the stuff I love,well made heavy,solid,built-to-last
forever gear,being exported (to anywhere-not just Japan)-to be replaced with
plastic,disposable junk. Which,like fools,we buy since there are no American
owned and operated companies making better stuff.Which we probably STILL
wouldnt buy because it would be more expensive that stuff made in (now 3rd
world) countries. Which is what put Fisher,Scott,Marantz and now
(sadly)Mcintosh into foreign hands..Sorry especially if I offended any Japanese
guys on RAT.I just think it's our fault for selling it. Those of you who know
your history better than I need no more ellucidation on this stuff,I'm sure.
Best,
Mike Zuccaro
tom brennan
Japanese. Many Americans still hate the Japanese on account of WWII.
Just because the economic and political leaders of the U.S. decided we
should be friends with the Japanese doesn't mean that those who fought
them or suffered at their hands have to go along with the program. On
the other hand calling a Japanese-American a "Jap" is unacceptable
behavior towards a fellow countryman.
Regards Tom Brennan
Vince Rhea
just bought such and such, how can I change it" ? They haven't even listened
to it stock yet and they are ready to tear it apart.
Vince
AMitch9448
design. It has appreciated in value on the international marketplace for that
reason.Everything in the Marantz equipment of the time was of the best quality
that they could source, and the workmanship was consistantly 1st rate. They
also happen to sound quite good, even by today's standards.
I believe this is why collecectors worldwide
seek to buy them.
2] Marantz products are not only the only "icons" of Americian design that
have value
to collectors. Anything made designed with imagination and originality and
quality have merit: New York School paintings, Dusenberg
automobiles, Eames furniture, the list could go on forever. All that any of us
have to do is go
to a museum and visit the "Americian Wing".
We are an intelegent, sensitive,inventive nation.
Our Artifacts prove this.
3] To critisize the Japanese for being among the first to realize the
significance of Americian industrial design in audio equipment is unfair and
ignorant. To refer to the Japanese as "japs" is moronic.
4] Justifying stupid language by claiming continued anger about the second
world war
is pretty hollow. The Japanese allowed themselves it be caught up, over a
period of decades into a military frame of mind that perverted many of their
own beliefs. They acted like beasts for 20 years. They slaughtered us, we
slaughtered them. The U.S.
was on the side of the angels in the second world war.But its over.Japan has
evolved into
a nation that is as decent as any other since that time. So let the "jap" stuff
go.
5]That people recognize Americian industrial /
artistic efforts internationaly should be somthing Americians should take pride
in.
Getting hissy about it is chicken-shit.
Albert Mitchell
NYC
Neil Jendon
I'd like to second Kevin Deal's comments and add my own:
As much as you would like to see the stereos, cars,
motorcycles, other icons of our culture remain in the
driveways and living rooms of red-blooded 'Mericans like
you and me, that's price of doing business. Sorry.
Take a trip to anywhere else in the world and check the
TV listings in the newspaper; I guarantee you Baywatch
and a dozen other crappy American TV progarams dominate
the airwaves. We exported our TV, our rock, our cigarettes,
our toxic waste, and our blue jeans, so hell yeah, they want
our stereos, our motorcycles, our bitchin' Camaros, and they'll
pay high coin for them.
So you want to keep these things in American hands? Well,
turnabout is fair play. We can start by emptying out the
museums and returning all the mummies to Egypt and all the
above-mentioned Ming vases to China. While we're at it we
should return Texas to Mexico, Everything west of the
Mississippi to the French, and then all of the Americas to
the Lakota, Navajo, Cherokee, Aztec, Incas, Olmec, and all
of the other nations that fall under the blanket term of
"Native American."
The desirability of American products didn't come without a
cost; but that cost wasn't paid by us.
Sincerely,
Neil
Jordan Singer
>So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially to
>dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
Mike -- The war ended a while ago, if I recall. Do you use the words
"spick", "kike", "nigger", "dago" or "kraut" in your posts as well?
What is it with a few people in this group and the Japanese? You'd
think from the tone that every piece of Marantz or GE equipment that
is sent to Japan winds up being ground up into little pieces, then
formed into incendiary bombs to be dropped onto the houses of U.S.
audio nuts.
-- Jordan Singer
<jpsi...@mindREMOVEspring.com> -- Cut "REMOVE" to reply --
Jordan Singer
>>
>>Fred:
>>Thank God it's the Marantz stuff and some Mcintosh thats pricey and not the
>>Fisher,Scott,Dyna,Heath,HK,etc.This stuff is still affordable and usually
>>very
>>well built.I say that if we Americans were stupid enough to sell this stuff
>>out
>>of the country (dealers-you know who you are),we don't deserve to have it
>>made
>>available to us cheaply anymore.So never,ever sell your stuff.Especially to
>>dealers.Especially to the Japs.IMHO,of course.
>>Best,
>>Mike Zuccaro
>
>Mike,
>
> Sadly it is not _only_ stereo gear they want. They (Japanese) are also buying
>out art, and our classic 60's and 70's muscle cars.
You sure this is up-to-date information? The economic go-go days in
Japan are definitely over.
>To my horror there was a
>post on the Corral which is a big web site for 5.0 and all Mustang owners and
>enthusiasts. They were and are looking to buy our classic muscle cars like
>classic Shelby's and 427 Cobras. They load them onto containers and ship them
>to Japan. Isn't that sad.
Why? Don't they take good care of them? Does a Japanese
industrialist paying an outrageous price for one of these cars jack
the price up more than an American industrialist paying an outrageous
price? Or a European?
You ever notice the amount of priceless Japanese antiques (swords,
ceramics, religious objects -- one-of-a-kind artifacts, not industrial
products) owned by collectors and museums in this country?
It seems like the repeated indictment of the Japanese I keep hearing
all comes down to this:
a). There are a certain number of wealthy individuals in Japan with
some money to spend.
b). They appreciate good stuff from other countries, including the
U.S.
Now, I don't think anyone could gripe about the latter (just shows
good taste). As far as the former, well, Japan's probably #2 in the
world. Guess which country is #1?
This is the world's richest country. full of million- and
billionaires who think nothing of buying-up the best the world has to
offer and having it shipped home. I'll bet the amount of "good stuff"
flowing into the U.S. and out of the rest of the world makes Japanese
purchases look like a nit. But that's not "our" stuff being bought,
so I guess it doesn't matter...
>I e-mailed that "American Pimp" who was acting as the
>middleman for $$$ and told him to "bite-me." Please do not sell them our
>treasures.
Welcome to global capitalism. I hate it too, but I'll bet you're not
willing to call yourself a socialist. If you don't like the rules,
then work to change them. Pleading with a dealer who's getting rich
won't get you too far, I'd guess.
>I am new to this great tube audio but I hope and pray the '73 T/A I
>sold to a collector in 1988 is still in this country.
I appreciate your sentiment, but if you really wanted to keep it in
this country, you know the solution -- don't sell it.
>The thought of that car
>being one of 254 built sitting in a rich Japanese industrialist's warehouse
>sickens me.
What sickens you? Is it the rich part, the industrialist part, the
warehouse part (probably not true if you're talking Japan), or the
Japanese part (I notice you didn't use the words "foreign
industrialist").
Would you feel better if it were in Australia or Germany?
>If they are so bloody creative why are they not merely content to
>keep old toyotas and nissan's and Sony transistor stereo gear from the 1960's.
Because at the particular time period you mention, Japan was like a
3rd-world country. Generally speaking, they didn't have the economic
resources to make great stuff, so most of it was cheap junk. It's
like asking why India doesn't treasure its industrial output from the
'60s.
OTOH, you can go to any number of U.S. museums and see
examples of Japanese metallurgy, ceramics, and religious art from the
14th and 15th centuries that makes European equivalents from the same
period look completely stone age. -- And I'll bet there are any
number of Japanese nationalists who become red-in-the-face furious
that this stuff ever left the country.
>The answer is because the stuff they copy and clone $ucks.
Really? I've got a cheap mid-'70s Tokai (J'se) copy of a Stratocaster
(that's an electric guitar -- but I'd guess that anyone into old cars
and tube audio would already know that). I'm consistantly told that
the quality is better than Fenders made during the same period (Well,
OK, the pickups were junk...but that's just one part and easy to
replace).
I'm more concerned about the stuff *we* copy and clone. Some
of the reissued tube gear (guitar and hi-fi) seems pretty dubious.
And wait a minute -- are we supposed to hate Japan because
they don't copy well enough, or because they copy too well? I guess
it depends on the day of the week....
>Hang onto the old gear people..
Right. And if you sell it, don't complain because the buyer (who
apparently appreciates it more than you did when you sold it), happens
to be from another country.
With you to some extent in sentiment if not in argument....
Jordan Singer
How about unacceptable behavior towards a fellow human being? Are you
saying that it's OK to use "Jap" in Tokyo, but not in Seattle?
Anybody has the right to hate anybody for any reason, but I think most
people in this NG would agree that as far as the use of racist terms,
you should keep it to yourself. That's not the U.S. program, that's
the N.G. program.
PAUL MACCA
>> Sadly it is not _only_ stereo gear they want. They (Japanese) are also
>buying
>>out art, and our classic 60's and 70's muscle cars.
>
>You sure this is up-to-date information? The economic go-go days in
>Japan are definitely over.
Japan's bubble economy bursting has definitely put a damper on spending when it
comes to purchasing foreign property, real estate, luxury goods, and collector
items like classic Marantzes. Even those whose fortunes have not been
negatively impacted in the economic crises have cut back on their purchases of
goods overseas. Apparently, it is unseemly in Japanese culture to engage in a
flamboyant display of wealth at a time when much of the rest of the country is
struggling.
>>To my horror there was a
>>post on the Corral which is a big web site for 5.0 and all Mustang owners
>and
>>enthusiasts. They were and are looking to buy our classic muscle cars like
>>classic Shelby's and 427 Cobras. They load them onto containers and ship
>them
>>to Japan. Isn't that sad.
>
>Why? Don't they take good care of them? Does a Japanese
>industrialist paying an outrageous price for one of these cars jack
>the price up more than an American industrialist paying an outrageous
>price? Or a European?
Not only that. But many of those old cars that are currently hot in demand
(like the early 60s Chevy Impala and Caddy Eldorado ragtops) were pieces of
neglected junk until a foreign collector got his hands on them and had them
restored here (where it is cheaper) before getting it shipped home. If it
wasn't for the interest of these foreign buyers, many of those older cars might
still be rotting away in somebody's garage on their way to oblivion instead of
being lovingly restored and preserved.
>>If they are so bloody creative why are they not merely content to
>>keep old toyotas and nissan's and Sony transistor stereo gear from the
>1960's.
>
>Because at the particular time period you mention, Japan was like a
>3rd-world country. Generally speaking, they didn't have the economic
>resources to make great stuff, so most of it was cheap junk. (snip)
The quality issue is partly true. But there is a bigger reason why the
Japanese tend not to keep their older domestic cars. In Japan, the
registration tax levied on cars actually increases as a car gets older. This
was done by the govt. as a way to encourage people to sell their cars after
about 5-10 years and to buy new ones. (That shows you how much influence the
Japanese automakers have in govt.) The older cars (many of them still in
perfectly good shape) are purchased by these brokers who ship them overseas
where they end up getting sold in 3rd world countries in Asia and the Pacific.
>>I e-mailed that "American Pimp" who was acting as the
>>middleman for $$$ and told him to "bite-me." Please do not sell them our
>>treasures.
>
>Welcome to global capitalism. I hate it too, but I'll bet you're not
>willing to call yourself a socialist. (snip)
Right. If you're not willing to pay a price that a seller wants for his goods,
what business is it of yours to tell him who to sell or not sell to? Last I
heard, this was a free capitalist society.
Jamie
the advice of the "don't share at any cost" camp, we'll soon see our friends
in Britain suddenly less willing to sell Mullards and G.E.Cs to us. If the
europeans were as stingy as we want ourselves to be, then we'd have nothing
left but GE, RCA and Sylvania and the odd Tung-Sol.
I think that we should say "Don't sell that piece of gear" not just "Don't
sell that piece of gear outside the country" if you really wanna be anal
about it. If it is too cool to let it go to 'Japs' as one person so
eloquently put it, why the @#$@# did you sell the item in the first place?
Regards,
Jamie Campbell
David Anderson wrote in message ...
tom brennan
no personal beef but a lot of oldtimers have a beef with the Japanese
they haven't gotten over, that's understandable and their business.
Personally I have little animus against the Japanese. A little
understanding is in order here; many Americans have lost their jobs to
Japanese competition and many of these people have had a hard go, if
these people, or those who fought the Japanese, dislike them it's
understandable and the reason has little to do with racism but with the
hatreds brought about by war, whether military or economic. Would you
have people be saints? And I don't understand how "Jap" is a racist
term, offensive certainly, but one aimed at nationality not race. Spread
the term "racist" too wide and it loses it's meaning and bite.
Regards Tom Brennan
JLSEM
As an American, I find the term "Yank" inoffensive, even though I'm from the
South.
Are there any folks out there from the United Kingdom who are put off by the
term "Brit"? How about you "Aussies"? "Kiwis", are your feelings hurt?
"Frogs"?
Just curious,
John
P.S. I am offended by: Honky, whitey, cracker, lily white, gringo, etc.
Racial terms such as "n_ _ _ _ r", and others are indeed insulting and
offensive, as well as religious slurs. They obviously have have no place in a
civilized newsgroup.
Drew Eckhardt
David Anderson <dav...@humnet.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I don't want to start a price-flame war, but I'm simply curious as to why
>Marantz 7 preamps command such high prices compared to other tube preamps
>of their era.
1. Collector value. A while ago, classic muscle cars were commanding
$50,000 price tags.
2. Flexibility. They have a pot before the cathode follower output stage
which lets you match them to any input sensitivity (take a look
at some of the reviews of preamps like the Audio Research SP3
which read along the lines of "sounds great, but the volume
control is way too sensitive"). The low output impedance works
well with solid state power amps.
3. They sound good (this comes from the long term loan of a friend's. Very
neutral, with a tight bottom end and transparent top. Decent imaging
with a wide sound stage).
>I've looked at a schematic for the Marantz preamp, and it appears to me to
>be a well-implemented, but fairly conventional, design. I have seen one
>opened up for service, before, though I've never heard one in operation,
>and the only unusual thing I noticed was the placement of the tubes. In
>fact, it doesn't seem to differ too much in terms of circuit design from
>the McIntosh C22 preamp, which I've seen offered at somewhat lower prices.
Assuming you have a reasonable surplus shop and need both iron and tubes,
you can prototype a 7C with a modern rectifier sans phono stage for under
$50. Build one and see for yourself.
--
If a President of the United States ever lied to the American people he
should resign," --- William Clinton, 1974 while running for the US House of
Representatives responding to a question about President Nixon.
PAUL MACCA
>Are there any Japanese persons out there who are offended by the word "Jap"?
>
My mother is Japanese, and both us would be offended.
>As an American, I find the term "Yank" inoffensive, even though I'm from the
>South.
>
>Are there any folks out there from the United Kingdom who are put off by the
>term "Brit"? How about you "Aussies"? "Kiwis", are your feelings hurt?
>"Frogs"?
>
>Just curious,
>John
>
>P.S. I am offended by: Honky, whitey, cracker, lily white, gringo, etc.
>Racial terms such as "n_ _ _ _ r", and others are indeed insulting and
>offensive, as well as religious slurs. They obviously have have no place in
>a
>civilized newsgroup.
Well, there you go. Some people think that saying "Jap" is a simple harmless
abbreviation for Japanese. But the problem is that "Jap" was used and fully
intended as racial slurs, especially during World War II. I have old pictures
of stores and businesses in Oregon that have large signs sayings things like
"Japs are not wanted." Some of my relatives have been called Japs by people
with the obvious intent to insult and to provoke a confrontation.
I guess that because of past history, the use of the term Jap has been too
closely connected with insults and racial taunts for it ever to be acceptable.
It's for similar reasons why you would never call an African-American adult a
"boy." Some people might think that term in itself is harmless, but there is a
lot of negative connotations attached to that term for it ever to acceptable in
addressing Afro-American males with it.
BTW, this is my last post on this particular matter. I hope I am not coming
across as a militant PC poster. But I do hope that people would take greater
care in having considerations for the feelings of others.
Tim Reese
PAUL MACCA <paul...@aol.com> wrote:
<snippage>
>BTW, this is my last post on this particular matter. I hope I am not coming
>across as a militant PC poster.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Reese, MGH NMR Center re...@nmr.MGH.harvard.edu
Jordan Singer
>Jordan--Of course it's wrong to be offensive to people with whom one has
>no personal beef but a lot of oldtimers have a beef with the Japanese
>they haven't gotten over, that's understandable and their business.
I can certainly understand how getting shot-at could make you a little
prejudiced.
>Personally I have little animus against the Japanese. A little
>understanding is in order here; many Americans have lost their jobs to
>Japanese competition and many of these people have had a hard go, if
>these people, or those who fought the Japanese, dislike them it's
>understandable and the reason has little to do with racism but with the
>hatreds brought about by war, whether military or economic. Would you
>have people be saints?
Like I said in the post, people have the right to hate anyone for any
reason. As far as I'm concerned, this NG just isn't the proper place
to debate the validity of those "reasons". Like you say, it's their
business.
>And I don't understand how "Jap" is a racist
>term, offensive certainly, but one aimed at nationality not race. Spread
>the term "racist" too wide and it loses it's meaning and bite.
I agree with your point about the term "racist" being overused.
However, "Jap" has historically been used as a derogatory term for
Japanese-Americans, so I think it probably qualifies as a racist term,
not just a term of "national bigotry."
Respectfully...
william bittle
expencive is due to short supply and high demand. Simply put, they
(marantz) built the top of the line components in the late 50's and
early to mid 60's. Even their transistor receivers and amps of the 70's
still rate high by today's standards and are rapidly climbing in value
due both to their gorgeous cosmetics and sonic performance. Plain and
simple. High Quality never goes out of style. It is timeless. Marantz
components are the standard of quality in the hifi industustry. The
reissues are of very high quality as well. Many of these components are
being exported to Asia and Europe which is making them increasingly rare
in the U.S.. This aids in maintaining the high prices for these
components. Another companie's products that are expencive is McIntosh.
And, again the reason is superb quality. Many people are sick of the
throw away products being produced by many, if not most hifi
manufacturers of today. They obviously are willing to pay premium prices
for components that are designed to last a lifetime and have a timeless
attractiveness that will look good 40 years from now. If you have ever
seen an E.H. Scott radio you know what I mean. Just remember one thing.
It is not for everyone. Most people are satisfied to be bedazzeled by
bells and whistles, the most of which they will never use, as opposed to
the simple elegance of true quality. Also, many people, myself included,
just plain do not have the money to plunk down $10,000 - $20,000 for a
hifi system. But I envy those who can, and can still appreciate the
components for what they are and see why those who have the means do buy
them.
B.B.
Ned Carlson
>As an American, I find the term "Yank" inoffensive, even though I'm from the
>South.
I try to point out to bloody pommies...err..British Subjects that
"Yankee" really means people from...certain folks from..
New *England*. Kinda ironic.
>Are there any folks out there from the United Kingdom who are put off by the
>term "Brit"? How about you "Aussies"? "Kiwis", are your feelings hurt?
>"Frogs"?
I think a lot of it has to do with the context in which the words
are/have been used. In Mexican parlance, for example,
people are often referred to by their physical/ethnic characteristics,
with no insult inferred whatsoever..(tho it *can* be done that way)..
As far as I'm concerned ,my wife can call me whatever she likes,
"panson","guero","gringo"...whatever, just so she don't
call me late for dinner...
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics "where da tubes are!"
2225 W Roscoe Chicago, IL, 60618 USA
ph 773-871-7459 fax 773-871-7938
12:30 to 8 PM CT, (1830-0200 UTC) 12:30-5 Sat, Closed Wed & Sun
http://www.triodeel.com
Your Start Page for Tube and Tube Amp info on the net...
http://www.triodeel.com/tlinks.htm
RHersh
>I try to point out to bloody pommies...err..British Subjects that
>"Yankee" really means people from...certain folks from..
>New *England*. Kinda ironic.
>
for their Dutch neighbors. It is derived from the name pronounced roughly
'Yon Kees' - John Cheese, after the Dutch fondness for dairy products and
common first name John.
This is from Bill Bryson's great book 'Made in America' about American English.
The word 'pommie' is of unknown origin. It appears to have been coined in
Australia and may be derived from P.O.M - Prisoners Of their Majesties.
Academics still debate this with no clear conclusion.
Both are mildly insulting and need not offend if said with a smile.
Eymologically yours
Ross H
P.S. Marantz 7s are cool looking and sound good, but for best fidelity, I
prefer something with a lot fewer passive components in the signal path. No
line stage sounds better than NO linestage. My .02.
macfa...@hotmail.com
rhe...@aol.com (RHersh) wrote:
> Ross H
> P.S. Marantz 7s are cool looking and sound good, but for best fidelity, I
> prefer something with a lot fewer passive components in the signal path. No
> line stage sounds better than NO linestage. My .02.
>
Hi Ross,
Right on the money. Unless you need a phono stage, a preamp will add noise
and distortion to the signal. I got rid of my preamp about a year ago. The
sound is better than ever.
Mike Wolfe
collection (like me), get a nice CD player with a good analog volume control
and run direct, forget that doggoned linestage. Some disagree, saying that
there is something lost, but I have yet to here that. Without it, all I hear
is dead quiet and wonderful music which is just as dynamic as any system
with a linestage.
--
A Dougla6
Without re-hashing old arguments, I would like to make some comments
on the "keep-it-all-in-this-country" sentiment.
In an ideal world, toys/collectibles would be distributed among those
who really appreciated them, regardless of value. But for better or worse,
this only happens early in the life cycle, when the items are ten or twenty
years old, obsolete and too expensive to be repaired, and therefore are
discarded. Anybody who actually wants them at this stage, is either
too poor to buy something good, or a nut (i.e., a true enthusiast).
As more people begin to want them, prices will invariably rise. What
would you do, decree that only people who rescued a junked Marantz
in 1970 are true enthusiasts and are allowed to have one now? It's
unfortunate that gear goes largely to those with the deepest pockets,
but as someone pointed out, welcome to capitalist society. A small
group of friends, a club, perhaps a newsgroup like this, have some
control over sales and disposition of equipment, if it is sold within the
group. But only the individual has absolute say.
I have seen it happen with automatic musical instruments: player
pianos, nickelodeons and such. I got interested in these in the late
1960s, from having bought a book on restoring player pianos because
it had a chapter on reed organs which I already collected. At that time,
most nickelodeons were in the hands of "nuts" who did all their own
restoration work, and perhaps operated offbeat "museums" or just
had them around the house. Ragtime music had not quite been
rediscovered, and nobody with any taste, or money, would have had
such an instrument in his possession. By 1970, however, decent
nickelodeons were selling for thousands of dollars, and the garage
tinkerer was pretty much out of the running. I acquired a nice 1908
Seeburg piano on a swap, but never could afford the $4000 orchestrion
I coveted.
Same with hi-fi gear. While the really good equipment has never been
cheap, consumer-grade Scotts and Fishers and Sherwoods were junked
in huge numbers as they reached old age. A friend who collected this
stuff used to buy mostly at hamfests and flea markets. He would buy
a Scott amp or something, and as he was carrying it back to his car,
would be accosted by people he passed, asking "Oh, you like that
stuff? How about taking this old tuner for a buck so I don't have to haul
it back home?"
My friend was sensible enough to actively search out this gear when
no one else wanted it. But that time is past. If you want to re-create
Utopia, you need to find another field, to put up with snickers from
friends and family of "Why do you want that junk?" If it has any value,
or anticipated value, it won't do. How about, for instance, 1960s
Tektronix oscilloscopes? Gorgeous construction, icons of their day,
but only marginally useful now, and sometimes free for the hauling.
Will they ever be desirable in the future? Do you appreciate them
enough anyway to give them a home today? Are you willing to take a
flyer on something else that's out of fashion?
No complaints, please, about the Japanese audio "mania" (their word)
who were willing to do so when we were not.
Conversely, though, there is no obligation to sell to the highest bidder
now.
Cheers, Alan
Alan Douglas, Box 225, Pocasset, Massachusetts 02559
rtlbu...@gmail.com
> Hi,
>
> I don't want to start a price-flame war, but I'm simply curious as to why
> Marantz 7 preamps command such high prices compared to other tube preamps
> of their era.
>
> be a well-implemented, but fairly conventional, design. I have seen one
> opened up for service, before, though I've never heard one in operation,
> and the only unusual thing I noticed was the placement of the tubes. In
> fact, it doesn't seem to differ too much in terms of circuit design from
> the McIntosh C22 preamp, which I've seen offered at somewhat lower prices.
>
> preamp--one that had far fewer switches in the signal path than the
> Marantz 7 and one that had things like a stepped attenuator volume
> control. For that matter, it wouldn't be hard to duplicate the Marantz
> design. Power amps are harder to copy due to the output transformers, but
> preamps are generally built from commonly available parts.
>
> So, are the high prices just due to collectors value--the thrill one gets
> from owning something with a certain name and number on it--or is there
> something else that I'm missing?
>
> Regards,
> David Anderson
> --
> I refuse to accept any unauthorized or unsolicited E-mail
> communications.
>
> The sending of an unsolicited E-mail communication shall
> be proof that the sender has agreed, by action, to send $500.00
> US/ certified funds to me, prior to any unsolicited or unauthorized
> transmission.
>
> "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
> meets the definition of a telephone fax machine.
> By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited
> advertisement to such equipment.
> By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
> punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
> whichever is greater, for each violation."
I use to wonder the same thing myself, a while back. Constantly watched the prices rise, back when they were going for about 1k+ having various tube gear.
I just thought name brand valuation, even looked at a few that sounded awful. but being a newbie at tube gear there was alot i didn't know.
So a year or 2 later becoming more familiar with them, seeing the price of the marantz 7 tube more than double I bought one, everyone of them I auditioned sounded bad. But now I knew all old tube gear sounds bad until you do minor tweaks, bought cheaper tube stuff to experiment with. Almost every piece after tweaking sounds better than whats currently on the solid state market.
Anyway bought one figured i would sell it.
After repair/tweaks, I was blown away by the sound + many other nuances.
It was like a clear window, mind you I was using a Luxman cl-35 preamp already,
plus prodigy otl amps, bass is sharp not muddy, highs are crystal clear, mids just right.
So ended up keeping it and selling luxman
If you hear it you would understand.
just my 2 bits ;)
Patrick Turner
"""""So you want to keep these things in American hands? Well,
turnabout is fair play. We can start by emptying out the
museums and returning all the mummies to Egypt and all the
above-mentioned Ming vases to China. While we're at it we
should return Texas to Mexico, Everything west of the
Mississippi to the French, and then all of the Americas to
the Lakota, Navajo, Cherokee, Aztec, Incas, Olmec, and all
of the other nations that fall under the blanket term of
"Native American." """"""
But opinions of people have not all been converted to laws to restrict trade.
And trade can be cruel to many ppl of many nations who see what they as national treasures vamoosing, even old tubed preamps.
We live in a fickle world. There is really no loyalty to the local made wonderful product once the novelty has worn off or someone comes along with a cheaper version made overseas with more and better features.
Here in Oz, and I suspect right across the USA and Europe, we buy so much junk made in asia and its all necessary junk, like cheap underpants. Well, the asians make the undies by paying their workers a pittance in sweat shops then sell them to us at prices which just puts OUR factories out of business. Then the makers and importers make a huge profit because the difference between our wages and asian wages is enormous, while there is only a slight difference in undie prices at the shop. This is a reason why China is America's banker.
The same goes for amps made in Asia, some a good, some are rubbish, but asians stop us making our own amps. They'd be unaffordable if we did. OK, so ARC makes amps in USA. Sheesh, very expensive!
The electronics industry in Oz made TV sets and radios and some hi-fi which was mainly low-fi. It was protected by tariffs because we needed to maintain the industry because of national strategy, ie, we'd need to make our own army radios if there was another war. Well, during 1960s,70s, both Labor and Liberal Governments got rid of the tariffs and let all the Jap crap flood in and the whole electronics industry was closed down. The car industry in Oz is now nearly closed. But I have zero desire to own an ancient Holden made here in Oz. People buy what they think is better for them and the imported cars easily outsell local mades.
I worked 18 years handcrafting amps in Oz. Included in my custom jobs were far better preamps than Marantz ever were prepared to sell to the public, so I don't much understand the nostalgia for past goods which always bear the hallmarks of having been designed by an accountant. The majority of inquiries for quotes on prices for gear I made were from ppl who expected me to compete
with Chinese junk on Ebay.
I only worked for ppl who well understood social wage justice. Most ppl don't, and they expect all "other people" to slave away in terrible conditions, but they would never ever work for the same wage or conditions.
Unless you value everyone else like you value yourself, you have no value.
Most of the world does not seriously consider these ideas so the absurdity of poverty and inequality between ppl world wide continues.
And what will happen in 5,000 years? Who will want a Marantz then? I think greenhouse warming will raise sea levels 100 feet and DROWN New York, and Sydney, and so on, and it will be an entirely unimaginable world - well beyond whatever Hollywood could dream up.
Just enjoy what you can while you can, because life is sweet but brief.
Patrick Turner.
Lord Valve
You just replied to a post that's SIXTEEN YEARS OLD.
Learn to read headers, schmuck.
Frank Lucas
What's wrong in replying to a 16 yo post?
Frank
strst...@gmail.com
Peter Wieck
Marantz has the legend and the pedigree, largely derived from the 10B, that makes the other components in that series valuable. A "Matched Set" as it were.
Is the 7/7B anything special? It was at the time. Now, there are better. Along with the 8/8B & 9/9B. There are better.
Would I spend that kind of money? No. Even if I were stupidly rich. There are better places to spend for better results.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
