Vintage Altec System - Help!
ABKMan
I'm sort of new to this "vintage" horn stuff, but have decided to try to
assemble a high-efficiency system using this horn on top. I can get a pair of
new EV 15" woofers for cheap (they were used in the 1502 pro speaker; their
forte is midrange, not low bass) and am planing on mating these with the altec
horns. Since I don't have a whole lot of cash, I'm looking around locally for
some used PA cabinets that I can use the woofers in (I'll stack the Altec horns
on top). My dad has suggested sealing such cabinets for a infinite-baffle
approach. Anyways, I need a crossover now. I don't know where to start! Any
technical info would be great! Should I look to the Altec A7 for a begining
crossover design? Also, should I replace the diaphragms with the Radian
variety? I've heard this suggested; does it improve the high end? I know that
the two diaphragms have been replaced and one is different from the other.
Thanks!
-Kramer
tommy
horns, and even 16" ALTEC woofers, but I still haven't had the funds or the
time to build the speakers. But the designing is fun. The Radian
diaphragms were like $70 each, so you might want to hold off and spend that
money on other stuff if your drivers work. Mine were blown.
Try these spots.
http://users.erols.com/achassel/calc_cr.html
http://orion.pspt.fi/~jhartika/isd/
http://www.soundpractices.com/altec.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/AltecLansing/
They'll let you look at a lot of things.
Chris
ABKMan <abk...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990728023844...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
Ron Selberg
>
> I am in a similar situation. I have the ALTEC horn drivers, and the 500B
> horns, and even 16" ALTEC woofers, but I still haven't had the funds or the
> time to build the speakers. But the designing is fun. The Radian
> diaphragms were like $70 each, so you might want to hold off and spend that
> money on other stuff if your drivers work. Mine were blown.
>
> Try these spots.
>
> http://users.erols.com/achassel/calc_cr.html
>
> http://orion.pspt.fi/~jhartika/isd/
>
> http://www.soundpractices.com/altec.html
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ok/AltecLansing/
>
> They'll let you look at a lot of things.
> > I just bought a pair of 802-D (16 ohm) drivers w/ the larger 500hz
> horn...
> > I'm sort of new to this "vintage" horn stuff, but have decided to try to
> > assemble a high-efficiency system using this horn on top. Anyways, I need a crossover now. I don't know where to start!
> Any
> > technical info would be great! Should I look to the Altec A7 for a
> begining
> > crossover design? Also, should I replace the diaphragms with the Radian
> > variety? I've heard this suggested; does it improve the high end? I
> know that
> > the two diaphragms have been replaced and one is different from the
> other.
> > Thanks!
Chris, thanks for the Altec related web sites. I hadn't seen a couple of
those.
For the x-overs, the original Altec stuff is fine for a place to start.
But by all means, roll your own! I think the 24dB type would be
interesting to try. Some have suggested that simple 1st order are the
only way to go, but my experiences are that the horns do not like to go
lower than the 500hz cutoff freq. The single pole filter simply lets too
much LF through. Especially at high volume levels.
I am also an Altec user, and have been for 20+ years. I have my A7's
biamped, and this is really the best way to go.
Good luck to both of you, and Chris, get those things built!!!
Ron
tom brennan
use, they also have the best price I've seen on the Radian diaphragms,
around $40 each. The Radians sound good, not neccesarily better than
stock Altec aluminums, but at least as good, and are better than stock
Altec titaniums. Image has no website but you can call 800-552-1639.
They take phone orders and have a great catalog.
Tom Brennan
http://community.webtv.net/irishtom/TommysHornSpeaker
Ron Selberg
>
> Kramer---Image Communications in Chicago has nice crossovers for your
> use, they also have the best price I've seen on the Radian diaphragms,
> around $40 each. The Radians sound good, not neccesarily better than
> stock Altec aluminums, but at least as good, and are better than stock
> Altec titaniums. Image has no website but you can call 800-552-1639.
> They take phone orders and have a great catalog.
> Tom Brennan
Hi Tom,
Tell me about these Radian replacement diaphrams for the Altec
compression drivers? Do they sound as good as the Altec Pascallite
diaphrams? These are the latest from Altec and replace the earlier
aluminum ones. And it is of course an aluminum alloy. I know in my
system the pascallite has better hf extension.
Also, the paper written by Jim Dickenson that I gather was published in
SP, or at least resides on the SP Altec site mentioned earlier, is an
excellent read. I contacted Jim and had read his literature years before
SP and the triode/horn speakers movement were even a gleam in most folks
eyes.
I clearly remember having loudspeaker/stereo salesmen just cringe when I
told them I had Altec A7's. Altec is all I've ever owned, and I've had
them since the early 70's. Funny how some things come full circle.
Ron
tom brennan
Altec 908s and in a pair of JBL 2470s, they sound very good, smooth and
extended. The Radianized 908s sound every bit as good as my 806s with
the stock aluminums. I was off on the price though, I just looked at my
Image catalog and the Radian diaphragms for 1" Altecs are $59.80 each.
Image has a crossover for 8 ohm drivers--12db lowpass-18db highpass at
500hz for $17.46. Their crossovers use pretty good parts ( mixture of
air-core and ferrite core coils, both film and electrolytic caps) and
are American made, a real bargain. I use the 800hz version of the
crossover on my JBLs, I'm satisfied. They are not the ultimate in
crossovers but are quite seviceable, they won't hurt you and will get
you rolling.
Tom Brennan
http://community.webtv.net/irishtom/TommysHornSpeaker
ABKMan
bought the drivers from told me that the two diaphragms are different from one
another; I figure that I should probably replace them. I'm looking for HF
extenstion and smoothness; are the Radians the way to go? Also, could you tell
me a little more about the crossovers that Image Comm offers? Thanks for the
info!
-Kramer
ABKMan
-Kramer
tom brennan
is that I'm very pleased with the Radians in my Altec 908s and JBL
2470s. Radian's an interesting company, they make a wide range of
compression drivers and even 12" and 15" coaxe drivers similar to the
Altec Duplexes and Tannoys, all American made and reasonably priced.
There's a link to their site on mine.
Like you Ron I've been a horny a long time, since about 1971. I've used
Klipsch, JBL, EV and Altec and would take any of them over the chinless,
pantywaisted, overpriced, Madisound Catalog compression and distortion
generators the "audiophile" speaker makers are foisting on people.
Tom Brennan
http://community.webtv.net/irishtom/TommysHornSpeaker
Randall Bradley
apps they generally require significant EQ in the xover to
make them resonable.
The large pro woofers *must* be in a ported enclosure that is
properly sized and tuned in order to have decent LF extension,
an infinite baffle will NOT work well, unless it is the wall
and the box is the room behind it! Then it will work fine.
Or, you can put them in a sealed box and EQ with a 2,000 watt
pro amp!
In general the Radian diaphragms are good.
The metal Altec horns need heavy damping to eliminate the
ringing!
_-_-randy
BEAR Labs
Ron Selberg
>
> The Altec compression drivers are non flat. that is for hi-fi
> apps they generally require significant EQ in the xover to
> make them resonable.
I totally agree. I actualy cross mine at 2500 with a 6dB/oct slope. I do
this inside the HF amp. On the output of the amp I use the orig 500
X-over. Above 8khz I have another 802 driver crossed with a cap and the
driver is mounted to an Edgar soup bowl horn. That 802 has the tangerine
phase plug aand uses the pascalite diaphrams. The "mid" horn is a
heavily damped 511 with an 806 driver and the alum diaphrams. I know it
seems a bit kludged, but is sounds good and measures quite flat from 500
to 16khz.
Ron
Ron Selberg
> Klipsch, JBL, EV and Altec and would take any of them over the chinless,
> pantywaisted, overpriced, Madisound Catalog compression and distortion
> generators the "audiophile" speaker makers are foisting on people.
> Tom Brennan
Sounds like we have been at the horn thing for about the same length of
time! Horn on man.
Ron
CButtacavo
else on the planet I have to say that hearing is believing and I'm a believer
since 1967 when I first used A-7's for my band. You can damp the horn very
effectively with a piece of 3/8 " rubber gas line found at any auto parts
store. Just cut a piece long enough to fit the center rib and slit it
lengthwise and put it on! If you want to damp it more cut two more pieces and
you know where to put em'. As far as the not flat B.S. goes I'll bet any thing
that you will screw more things up than you fix with E.Q. Sorry to rag on you
but been there ,done that. A few rules..... Never use an electrical solution to
an acoustical problem first. Try moving things around ,slide the horn fore and
aft to change phasing. Point them in different directions.Have even had a room
where the horns wound up facing the wall in the corners of the room!!
Hearing is a physical process,Listening is a MENTAL process. Putting it another
way,is the speaker really at fault or are those 4'x8' pieces of sheet rock that
your listening area is framed with startin to rock and roll with the source?
Charlie
Randall Bradley
BAND?? WHAT BAND?? EH??
SPEAK LOUDER I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!
[crude attempt at sarcastic humor]
Just because people did things for a long time that were far less
good than they might have been, DOES NOT in and of itself lend
any merit or creedence to these things. A7s to the best of my
knowledge were NEVER used extensively for mastering or mixing,
Altec 604s were.
Many of the so called A7s were configured very differently. And,
in general they were poorly designed in the bass, and the horns
used were marginal, as were the drivers. Few of these were released
with drivers as good (if you like them at all) as the larger format
288s or similar, or the larger format horns. Arguably, these
might have some merit, if you happen to have them.
The bass sections are hardly wonderful, as they were designed
before the advent of TS tuning parameters, at a time when the
best *most* anyone could do is to test and guess...
They did go pretty loud at a time when loud was hard to do and
a BIG amp was 60 watts.
_-_-randy
BEAR Labs
JJMcF
particularly if you want to put together your own system from disparate parts.
There are so many tradeoffs in designing horn systems that this is an
extraordinarily difficult objective. I've been there. I would recommend
starting with a stock Altec A-7-500 system, generally available fairly cheap.
The A-7 has been around a long time and embodies a lot of sophisticated
compromises. Then you can take it from there--improved crossovers, cabinet
modifications, etc in an incremental way and get what you like. But starting
with a disparate collection of parts is likely to sour you on horns.
tom brennan
(Hilliard and Lansing come to mind) and did lots of testing. IMO an
Altec 825-828 cabinet does the finest reproduction of well recorded
electric bass that I've heard. Now as for other forms of bass,
orchestras and such, I don't know, but an 825 can sound like a D-140
Dual Showman is right in the room with you. The compromises in the A-7
system were cannily chosen and the rigs sound good to many people,
personally I think that 806 or 908-511 midrange is great; very full and
realistic. There may be better horn systems, I haven't heard eveything,
but I'll take an A-7 over most speakers I have heard and I've heard
plenty. Of course if you don't like the way they sound then that's that
:-)
Tom Brennan
http://community.webtv.net/irishtom/TommysHornSpeaker
Ron Selberg
>
As far as the not flat B.S. goes I'll bet any thing
> that you will screw more things up than you fix with E.Q. Sorry to rag on you
> but been there ,done that. A few rules..... Never use an electrical solution to
> an acoustical problem first. Try moving things around ,slide the horn fore and
> aft to change phasing. Point them in different directions.
I agree. I actually toe the horns quite alot. This causes me to end up
sitting a bit off axis. The things still image great, and really mellow
out. Try it, it works!
> Hearing is a physical process,Listening is a MENTAL process.
Can't argue with this at all.
Randy, you have never liked A7's and never will. Some of us do. Give us
a break eh? Didn't your mother teach you that if you don't have
something good to say, then don't say anything at all?
Ron
Randall Bradley
Ron Selberg <ronald....@tek.com> wrote:
>CButtacavo wrote:
>>
> As far as the not flat B.S. goes I'll bet any thing
>> that you will screw more things up than you fix with E.Q. Sorry to rag on you
>> but been there ,done that. A few rules..... Never use an electrical solution to
>> an acoustical problem first. Try moving things around ,slide the horn fore and
>> aft to change phasing. Point them in different directions.
>
>I agree. I actually toe the horns quite alot. This causes me to end up
>sitting a bit off axis. The things still image great, and really mellow
>out. Try it, it works!
>
>> Hearing is a physical process,Listening is a MENTAL process.
Right, and bad speakers still sound like bad speakers.
So, this statement means nil.
>
>Can't argue with this at all.
>
>Randy, you have never liked A7's and never will. Some of us do. Give us
>a break eh? Didn't your mother teach you that if you don't have
>something good to say, then don't say anything at all?
Actually, "liking" A7s has nothing to do with this. You are
welcome to like anything you want. However, to tell the world that
what you like is "the best" (for example) or that in effect
it doesn't matter what it objectively does, or how it is
designed is absurdity.
So far as what my mother taught me, you should be so lucky to
have been taught by my mother, dude.
IN FACT, I probably used and worked with A7s long before you
had any contact with them. So, perhaps YOU should consider
*my* opinions on this subject a bit more than you seem to, just
maybe I have something cogent to say?
Presently, dude, I use *horns.* Good horns. Horns that measure
FLAT from 300Hz. to 7kHz. Ratty horns are still ratty by comparison.
A frequency response designed for PA use, and maximum intellegability
at distances GREATER than 100 feet is STILL not what you want in
a near field listening situation. THAT *is* what the A7 series,
AND most of the Altec line was designed for. BTW, my horns *happen*
to measure flat without the use of any EQ. (this is my midrange,
the highs are also compression drivers for now, and the lows are
NOT horns - yes this works fine.)
Finally, listening off axis is a pretty crude way to equalize,
since you are scrubbing off all of the highs (what few the horn
produces) at the listening position.
Attempting to do equalization in the x-over *if* you know nothing
about x-over design, have no decent test gear, and don't know
much about filter circuits *is* probably a bad idea, since you
are not likely to suceed. So, if you are ignorant of these things,
and don't have any test gear, then by all means toe your speakers
in, Ron.
However, I'd suggest learning about horns, learning about xovers,
learning about testing, and learning about other sucessful attempts
to solve these same problems. Then, at the least *try* some of the
ideas that others have used and published, if not attempting your
own.
_-_-randy
BEAR labs
>
>Ron
Ron Selberg
> Actually, "liking" A7s has nothing to do with this. You are
> welcome to like anything you want. However, to tell the world that
> what you like is "the best" (for example) or that in effect
> it doesn't matter what it objectively does, or how it is
> designed is absurdity.
I have never said they were the best.
>
> So far as what my mother taught me, you should be so lucky to
> have been taught by my mother, dude.
I'm not a dude, and I no longer have a mom.
>
> IN FACT, I probably used and worked with A7s long before you
> had any contact with them. So, perhaps YOU should consider
> *my* opinions on this subject a bit more than you seem to, just
> maybe I have something cogent to say?
I've had A7's or a variation since 75. And what I have now are 3 way
A7's. Even compression drivers for the highs.
>
> Presently, dude, I use *horns.* Good horns. Horns that measure
> FLAT from 300Hz. to 7kHz. BTW, my horns *happen*
> to measure flat without the use of any EQ. (this is my midrange,
> the highs are also compression drivers for now, and the lows are
> NOT horns - yes this works fine.)
> Finally, listening off axis is a pretty crude way to equalize,
> since you are scrubbing off all of the highs (what few the horn
> produces) at the listening position.
Only the mids are aimed off axis. The Edgar small tractrix are aimed on
axis.
I only use EQ below 100hz.
>
> Attempting to do equalization in the x-over *if* you know nothing
> about x-over design, have no decent test gear, and don't know
> much about filter circuits *is* probably a bad idea, since you
> are not likely to suceed. So, if you are ignorant of these things,
> and don't have any test gear, then by all means toe your speakers
> in, Ron.
Well, I have swept my system with both a 1/3 octave RTA, and with a Tek
7L5 SA and a mike. Also swept each amp/driver combo while I worked with
the x-overs. Ditto for the amps alone. I have quite a decent test setup
at my home. Working for Tektronix for 22 years has it's advantages.
The RTA has shown me flat response on axis to 16khz, but for sure
doesn't tell the whole story. However, I never really liked the sound
when it was that way. So I experiment plenty to get it to sound good.
And these days, it does sound quite good, so I don't fool with it. I
just listen.
>
> However, I'd suggest learning about horns, learning about xovers,
> learning about testing, and learning about other sucessful attempts
> to solve these same problems. Then, at the least *try* some of the
> ideas that others have used and published, if not attempting your
> own.
I have, I do! Others in the Portland area have heard my system with
favorable comments. Even a notable or two who read this news group. It's
not perfect, but what is?
Have a nice day.
Ron
tom brennan
you're onto something good please tell us about it.
Tom Brennan
http://community.webtv.net/irishtom/TommysHornSpeaker
Randall Bradley
Ron Selberg <ronald....@tek.com> wrote:
>Randall Bradley wrote:
>
>I have never said they were the best.
>
tone, if not your exact words.
>> So far as what my mother taught me, you should be so lucky to
>> have been taught by my mother, dude.
>
>I'm not a dude, and I no longer have a mom.
So, then you can apologize for bringing *my* mother into this
discussion?
>
>I've had A7's or a variation since 75. And what I have now are 3 way
>A7's. Even compression drivers for the highs.
>
very nice.
>Only the mids are aimed off axis. The Edgar small tractrix are aimed on
>axis.
>I only use EQ below 100hz.
>
This implies a problem with the on axis response of that horn,
does it not?
>Well, I have swept my system with both a 1/3 octave RTA, and with a Tek
>7L5 SA and a mike. Also swept each amp/driver combo while I worked with
>the x-overs. Ditto for the amps alone. I have quite a decent test setup
>at my home. Working for Tektronix for 22 years has it's advantages.
>The RTA has shown me flat response on axis to 16khz, but for sure
>doesn't tell the whole story. However, I never really liked the sound
>when it was that way. So I experiment plenty to get it to sound good.
>And these days, it does sound quite good, so I don't fool with it. I
>just listen.
>>
>> However, I'd suggest learning about horns, learning about xovers,
>> learning about testing, and learning about other sucessful attempts
>> to solve these same problems. Then, at the least *try* some of the
>> ideas that others have used and published, if not attempting your
>> own.
>I have, I do! Others in the Portland area have heard my system with
>favorable comments. Even a notable or two who read this news group. It's
>not perfect, but what is?
>
the point was and is that *we* as a whole are giving advice to
others who may or may not be able to fully understand all the'
implications of what is said in various posts.
merely stating that stock Altec components can be rendered
satisfactory by the simple expedient of toeing in a driver
is not sufficient, nor is it giving good advice to the ng
at large. *discussing* this point *is* a good thing for the
ng. IMHO.
>Have a nice day.
>
>Ron
You too.
_-_-randy
BEAR labs
Randall Bradley
sorry, Tom, no can do!
This system is under development and is likely to surface as
a commercial product for BEAR Labs. I guess you'll have to
wait to see! :)
_-_-randy
BEAR Labs
Ron Selberg
> You implied exclusive wisdom on this issue, by your manner and
> tone, if not your exact words.
> the point was and is that *we* as a whole are giving advice to
> others who may or may not be able to fully understand all the'
> implications of what is said in various posts.
>
> merely stating that stock Altec components can be rendered
> satisfactory by the simple expedient of toeing in a driver
> is not sufficient, nor is it giving good advice to the ng
> at large. *discussing* this point *is* a good thing for the
> ng. IMHO.
Ok, you are "right".
I have nothing else to say.
Ron
Richard S. McCown
--------------------- Working for
Ron Selberg
Ha ha! Well, I wish it were that good! A lot of my equip is on loan.
Which is a nice benefit, but I'd rather it be mine.
Ron