Pro-Cap Silver Foil Capacitors
Charlie Kittleson
Apparently there is some misinformation being circulated about VTV and
the Pro-Cap Silver Foil Capacitors. There have been some individuals
on the JoeNet complaining about the price increase of these caps.
They were advertised in GA for a very reasonable price in the 5/98
issue. Then, in the 6/99 issue of GA, the price increased. I would
like to clear this up once and for all. By the way, this is not meant
to be a commercial, but an explanation of what is going on.
First, Jim Wilson of VTA magazine (England) was intent to find a US
distributor for these capacitors that are made in the UK by Kerr and
Johnson. These caps are 98% silver foil in paper with non-toxic
mineral oil impregnation. They are sonically similar to the very
expensive AudioNote UK Silver caps made for AudioNote by Jensen
Capacitors in Denmark.
Jim Wilson told me that he was contacted by Alex Crespi of Hovland
MusiCaps who thought that the price of his capacitors was too low and
that he should raise the price by 65%!! In order to, apparently,
increase the "value" of the product. By the time I actually contacted
Jim, the price of the caps had risen to the current levels. I was
interested in carrying the Pro-Caps for my new store in San Carlos, CA
and for mail order customers. Jim was intent on finding a master
distributor for his caps in the US so his time could be better spent
on producing his new magazine, VTA.
I accepted his offer to be the master distributor of Silver Pro-Caps
for North and South America and all of Asia. An will be carrying the
full line of caps available and in stock now including beautiful
polypropylene power supply capacitors in values of 20 and 100 @650V.
I was not involved in the price increase, in fact I was reluctant to
get involved because I knew there would be some complaints from the
peanut gallery. But, after listening to the caps, I decided they were
worth the money and even more, especially when compared to the
AudioNote Silver foil caps. The Pro-Caps have been compared to the AN
Silver Foils and the sound is very similar. I feel that these caps
offer superior performance for anyone who wishes to upgrade their gear
or build DIY equipment.
Thanks for your time.
Charlie Kittleson,
VTV Pro-Tube Shop
www.vacuumtube.com
Christopher A. Beck
>
SNIP
> Jim Wilson told me that he was contacted by Alex Crespi of Hovland
> MusiCaps who thought that the price of his capacitors was too low and
> that he should raise the price by 65%!! In order to, apparently,
> increase the "value" of the product. By the time I actually contacted
> Jim, the price of the caps had risen to the current levels. I was
> interested in carrying the Pro-Caps for my new store in San Carlos, CA
> and for mail order customers. Jim was intent on finding a master
> distributor for his caps in the US so his time could be better spent
> on producing his new magazine, VTA.
>
>
This is exactly what is wrong with audio. Why does every "good" product
have to cost tons of money, otherwise it "can't" be any good. It's just
a case of the emperors new clothes. I've heard that the Pro-Cap's caps
are quite nice from Jack at Electra-Print Audio, and was even going to
try some, as I thought the price was reasonable. Not now.
Secondly, while I have no opinion of Hovland, I think that's a bunch of
bullshit. I was sceptical of the Pro-Caps when I first saw them. Why
were they so much cheaper? But, hold the price and word will get out
that they are good. Then, the overpriced "boutique" caps won't sell
anymore. So be it. I can't bring myself to spend $40 on a cap,
anyway. I'd rather buy good iron.
Let's get a grip.
Thanks for the soapbox
--
Chris Beck
See my webpage at: http://www.execpc.com/~n9zes
remove .nojunk to reply via e-mail
dave slagle
> anymore. So be it. I can't bring myself to spend $40 on a cap,
> anyway. I'd rather buy good iron.
hey,
read the above again, the answer is in the iron, to me a cap is a
tourniquit, and an average trannie is a bandaid...
as for the PS approach... yeah you need caps, and they are inportant
here... but there is no money to be made there... since the people who
realize the importance of PS caps have already been burnt by the magic
brand of the week caps...sooo they are a bit wiser...
earlier
dave
muc...@pop.tcsn.uswest.net
value hits the audio market,the price sky rockets when the word gets out.I
have great respect for Charlie Kittleson but I think he has an alligator
by the tail on this one-it's a no win situation for him.
As for Alex Crespi of Hovland,a hearty screw you.I hope you smart
yourself out of existence.
To Jim Wilson, I think you were on the right track when the
Pro-Caps were first being sold-not only a great value for the money but
also a great value.I think it was a mistake to let Alex influence your
good judgement in an effort on his part to lessen competition for Hovland
caps.
I can't bring myself to buy either product now.Reminds me when a
record company executive was asked about the high price of CD's,his
response was that the public perceived it as a better value.See...it
was,will and ever shall be our fault.
Larry Mucklow
Thom Mackris
One question however. Do we know what the real price of bringing
these caps to market is? Could this have been a promotional price?
Best regards,
Thom
John Hancock
engaging in cartel pricing. Too bad it's not a bigger market, we could
get the FTC/Justice Dep. to investigate.
For your information, a German mail-order outfit called intertechnic sells
polypropylene film and foil caps for a fraction of what Hovland charges.
Intertechnic has a pretty cool catalog, no snake-oil items. Have you guys
seen the latest Parts Connection catalog? Man, that really pisses me off.
15$ for a pair of felt circles to put around your tweeters. 150$ for a
pair of small pieces of metal to put on top of your 12AX7's--can't remeber
what they're called.
John
Andrea
to be bored one evening and was reading last year's stereophile review
of a $20,000 pair of speakers. The reviewer was good enough to name the
maker and model number of the raw drivers. At retail prices from Solen
in Quebec, the cost of the 10 drivers used was less than $1,000.... add
some more for the crossovers and cabinetry and R&D and overhead, and
maybe the cost to manufacture is (generously estimated to) be 2K. That
means that somewhere along the line there is a 1000% markup. Of course,
if they were using 40 dollar capacitors in the crossover, maybe the cost
would be a bit higher.
Paul Croft
I think you kind of miss the point. Market prices are naturally determined
by supply and demand. A seller has the right to ask any amount he wants for
his product. This is what he values it at. If the product is good enough,
people will gladly pay it. The customers value the product as highly (or
more highly) as the seller.
On the other hand, if the product is not so good, nobody will value it as
highly as the seller. Nobody will buy it - there is no demand. The seller
has two choices; lower the price to where most people value the product, or
quit selling it!
Really, it is quite simple. And mankind has not yet devised a better way of
distributing goods equitably and fairly. If you don't value these speakers
at $20,000, don't buy them! What could be fairer than that?
Cheers,
Paul
Andrea <KayA...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<3663CB35...@worldnet.att.net>...
John Hancock
>Hi Andrea,
>I think you kind of miss the point. Market prices are naturally determined
>by supply and demand. A seller has the right to ask any amount he wants for
>his product.
Paul, you're mostly right about this, however, there are exceptions.
Price collusion is most definitely illegal in this country. If
the owner of Hovland called up the manufacturer of Pro-Cap and discussed
prices in any way shape or form, they are in violation of anti-trust laws.
I've heard about this sort of thing on numerous occasions in audio,
though it's mostly hear-say, so I won't repeat it. Don't you wonder why
Svetlana charges several times as much for their 300B as they do for their
811 or 572? There is most definitely some oligopoly pricing
going on in the market for 300B's. The leaders of that market (KR and WE)
are setting prices and the rest of the market is following.
The point of all this is that prices in audio aren't necessarily
competitively priced and Andrea perhaps does have a point in complaining.
Thor...@tnt-audio.com
It is interesting to hear Charlies side of the story....
As it seems he stands without blame here and is caught between a Rock and a
hard place.... Maybe he would like to feed the reactions of the people here
and on the Joe-List back to old Blighty?
I must admit that I was (and still am) taken aback by the happenings around
these Capacitors....
However, this underscores to me just WHY I do not buy any of the "Boutique"
Brand Cap's (or Resistors) "specially made for audio"....
Anything I use is readily available as Industrial Supply from several sources.
And I use non-magnetic precisition Metal Film Resistors for about 5 to 15 cent
(depending on Value and Quantity) and Foil & Film Capacitors which cost at the
worst 4.5 Dollar (US) the Piece (1000V 0.47uF)....
That stuff sounds as good as Holco and Hoveland for a fraction of what we are
being asked to pay for supposedly "Audio-Grade" Components, which in reality
are mostly re-labled or custom labelled Standard Industrial parts, maybe with
different Leadouts (like silverplated stranded Copper vs. Tinned Copper....)
or a different colour Wrapping....
How is it that people fall for this again and again?
I know reliably of one or two Component manufacturers who make specifically
"Audio-Grade" Capacitors....
One is Elna with their Cerafine and Silmic Series of Electrolytic
Capacitors.... Even the fabled "Black Gate" Capacitors are originally High
Speed Digital decoupling Cap's... I think the Nichicon "Muse" can also count
as "Audio" Parts, but little else can....
As for the whole sad Pro-Cap Story, it seems a rather mad-cap (opps un-
intended) scheme to improve sales by raising Prices....
If anyone feels there are not enough sales, why not give a few of you Parts to
one of the more dedicated Reviewers in the business, like for example the
absolutley fabulous Dr. Gizmo from the Triode Guild.
If the stuff one sells is at least half as good as the advertising makes it
out, someone like Dr. Gizmo will sing the praises of them from all tall
buildings in NY.... And if the Price is low....
Well your ears will be ringing with his exultant Voice.... Who knows, there
may be even the Silver Lasange rolling Award for achievements in Audio in
it....
I think THAT would get the phones ringing with orders....
As it stands, this is a free world.
So the Distributors and makers of Pro-Cap's can price their products as they
like.
And we consumers can choose to either accept or not to accept this kind of
Business approach.
I feel it would have been better for Charlie to have stated that the Price
increase was due to prices raised at source instead of putting that stuff
about "promotional prices" on the Web-Site....
I must say that when I first heard about Pro-Cap's in thishere newsgroup I
really felt like trying a few....
Considering the Business Practice shown by VTA/Pro-Cap I shall not do so
now.... Instead I shall try to get in contact with Kerr & Johnson directly and
try to buy a Job-lot directly from them as group Order for our local DIY
Club....
It certainly works well enough with Ansar Supersound and Silversound
Capacitors which one can buy for fraction of the Price Mr. Russ Andrews
charges from the factory....
Knowing smaller British Businesses, I'm almost certain Kerr & Johnson will be
happy to do so too....
For all it's worth BTW, I normally buy small everyday quanteties of Ansar
Capacitors from a Retailer, notably Criclewood Electronics who charge a fair
Price (unlike Mr. Andrews)....
May I suggest that anyone in need of decent polypropylen Capacitors here in
the UK encourages their honorable trading practices by giveng them some
business...?
Kind regards Thorsten
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine. http://www.tnt-audio.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
rl1...@ix.netcom.com
was promotional.
The explanation (for the increase) that was provided, implies that the other
manufacturer thought their market was in jeopordy, hence the request to raise
prices. As we all remember from our Econ classes, a manufacturer can set any
price they want. The market determines whether or not the price is valid.
If the Procap line is as good as the Audionote caps, then maybe the new
prices are still fair and provide value. What I can tell you is that Angela
Instruments sells its own line of caps made by Jenson- the same people that
make the Audionote caps. Price is less than Audionote as well and about the
same as Procap. Bottom line is more choice, but at a price. On the other
hand, Ned at Triode sells "no name" polypropylene caps for a very low price
and some in this group swear by them.
Me, I'm staying with Sprague 716p Orange Drop. I just put some in a pair of
Fisher 30a amps and the results are wonderfull. I find it hard to believe
that the Procap/Angela/Audionote/Hovland/MIT etc etc are 10x better than the
716p.
My $0.012 (after tax)
Ross Lipman
In article <366391f7...@news.earthlink.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Buffstereo
Polyorops, and the price is right too! ( Several are labeled Nichicon.) I'll
be back for more, and soon! Robert Thompson
Live and let live!
Paul Croft
I don't know about illegal, John, but it would be stupid!
I can see why Alex Crespi at Hoveland would want Pro-caps to cost more. If
they sound the same or as good, well, he would eventually have to drop his
prices to compete.
But, something doesn't ring true here. Why would the Pro-caps listen to
Alex? Why would he want to make his product less competitive vis-a-vis
Hoveland? He wouldn't! I think someone is BSing about the phone
conversation between Jim Wilson and Alex Crespi. It wouldn't add value to
the Pro-caps. It would decrease the value and make them less competitive.
I think what probably happened is that the folks at Pro-caps decided they
could get more money for caps of this quality and raised their prices.
Until sold, the caps are their property; they do have this right. But they
sure did it stupidly. They seem to have angered quite a few potential
customers.
I have no problem with people charging what the market will bear. I don't
know a better way of determining the true value of goods and products. Of
course, lower the price and you may sell more. Higher quantity, lower
profit per unit.
I don't see much point in complaining about this stuff. It's better to vote
with our dollars! If we don't value a product as highly as the seller,
don't buy it! Then its up to the seller to lower the price or withdraw the
product. But nobody has the right to force someone to part with their
property for less than they want to sell it for.
Vote with your sawbucks, folks. If nobody thinks the product is worth what
the seller is asking, he will have to lower the price.
Cheers,
Paul
John Hancock <hanc...@andosrv.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<740l4s$33n$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
Jpchleapas
>From: hanc...@andosrv.sas.upenn.edu (John Hancock)
>Date: Tue, Dec 1, 1998 05:35 EST
>Message-id: <740gpt$6no$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>
>
>Pretty dissappointing to hear that the audio capacitor industry is
>engaging in cartel pricing. Too bad it's not a bigger market, we could
>get the FTC/Justice Dep. to investigate.
>
>For your information, a German mail-order outfit called intertechnic sells
>polypropylene film and foil caps for a fraction of what Hovland charges.
>Intertechnic has a pretty cool catalog, no snake-oil items. Have you guys
>seen the latest Parts Connection catalog? Man, that really pisses me off.
> 15$ for a pair of felt circles to put around your tweeters. 150$ for a
>pair of small pieces of metal to put on top of your 12AX7's--can't remeber
>what they're called.
>
>John
Hi John,
Can you please give me their URL, or phone number so I can contact
Intertechnic for a catalog? I have two sets of 40 y/o Heath w7a 55 watt mono
blocks, and another set of Mk111 aplifiers, and my Eico HF-85 preamp that I
want to recap over this winter. I do not have $$$ to waste on these designer
boutique capacitors and parts. If Intertechnic prices are that reasonable it
sure sounds like a plan to me. I just received my Parts Connection catalog a
few days ago. I nearly fell on the floor after looking at their prices,
especially at the prices for large electrolytics. <gasp> I think it is not only
illegal, but also reprehensible that companies like Hovland fix their prices.
Perhaps someone can e-mail a copy of the distributors statements about the
illegal way they raised their prices to the Justice Department? <grin> They
would have trouble explaining this away in a court of law after freely
admitting they fixed their prices like they did. We can make bold statements
with only our wallets by simply avoiding doing any business with companies like
this, and then supporting companies like Intertechnic.
Thanks,
John Chleapas
Maynard, MA
Kurt Strain
as good as Brand X boutique caps", then how could you possibly be complaining?
You have what you want at the price you want to pay. You have nothing
to complain about except you like to complain. Now shut up.
Thank you.
Kurt, tired of stupid bitching about prices for parts not affecting anyone.
Anthony Cirella
I don't think there's an anti-trust/monopoly
issue here, unless Crespi sent a few of his
goons over to ProCap's offices. Suggestion
is not the same as forcing the issue.
A.C.
A.Cirella, Handmade Electronics
http://www2.netcom.com/~handmade/
Tubes, supplies,upgrade parts, troubleshooting guide
Paul Croft
Ah, it's nice to hear a voice of reason in the cacophony.
Cheers,
Paul
Anthony Cirella <hand...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<743emv$f...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>...
> In article <19981201115343...@ng102.aol.com>,
> jpchl...@aol.com (Jpchleapas) wrote:
> >>Re: Pro-Cap Silver Foil Capacitors
> >>From: hanc...@andosrv.sas.upenn.edu (John Hancock)
> >>Date: Tue, Dec 1, 1998 05:35 EST
> >>Message-id: <740gpt$6no$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>
> >>
> >>Pretty dissappointing to hear that the audio capacitor industry is
> >
(snip...)
Charlie Kittleson
would like to make a few comments:
1. I had nothing to do with the price increase for Pro-Silver Caps.
The price increase was Jim Wilson's idea. If you don't beleive me, ask
him. I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!! Jim was influenced by other
capacitor vendors who thought Pro-Cap prices were too low for whatever
reason. In fact, I questioned his motives for doing this, saying there
would be some upset folks out there in audio land. However, Jim was
determined to raise the prices.
NOTE: Jim W. raised the price before he set me up as the dealer. If
you are upset about the increase, you should take it up with him, and
not me!!!! Jim is the master distributor of Pro-Caps worldwide and HE
SETS THE PRICES, NOT ME!!!!
Anybody who has ever run a business can relate to the concept running
a business to make a profit.
2. Jim has made me exclusive distributor of Pro-Caps for North and
South America as well as all of ASIA. Other vendors overseas are
handling other countries.
3. RAT members are free to choose the caps they want to use in their
amp and are under no obligation to buy these caps or any other caps
from me.
4. Regardless of certain individual opinions on this newsgroup, I
will continue to sell Pro-Caps and so far, have several satisfied
customers.
PS: I would like to thank individuals who complained about the price
increase for the free publicity on this newsgroup. This has generated
quite a bit of business for me!! THANKS GUYS!!!!
Best regards to all the positive folks in this news group who don't
take themselves or this hobby too seriously.
Have fun and enjoy!!!
Charlie Kittleson
Vacuum Tube Valley
Robert Hoffman
> amp and are under no obligation to buy these caps or any other caps
> from me.
> 4. Regardless of certain individual opinions on this newsgroup, I
> will continue to sell Pro-Caps and so far, have several satisfied
> customers.
Good for you
> Best regards to all the positive folks in this news group who don't
> take themselves or this hobby too seriously.
God forbid if anyone on this board ever took anything seriously.
Robert Hoffman
Andrej Deticek
I would like to generate some more business for you...
Charlie Kittleson wrote:
>
> After reading everyone's posts about the Pro-Cap price increase, I
> would like to make a few comments:
>
> 1. I had nothing to do with the price increase for Pro-Silver Caps.
> The price increase was Jim Wilson's idea.
Perhaps it was, perhaps not. I think most of us here have grown up, so
we can make our own conclusions. By this I don't mean to say it was your
idea, or even Mr. Wilson's idea, at the beginning. I think it was an
idea of most dealers who are selling (different manufacturer's caps) at
this and higher price range. Who talked to whom, etc., really does not
matter. Sure enough, Jim Wilson decided, who else? If you did not like
his prices, he could make the distributor somebody else.
>If you don't beleive me, ask
> him. I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!! Jim was influenced by other
> capacitor vendors who thought Pro-Cap prices were too low for whatever
> reason.
If you don't want to say it, I will: For money!
>In fact, I questioned his motives for doing this, saying there
> would be some upset folks out there in audio land. However, Jim was
> determined to raise the prices.
>
> NOTE: Jim W. raised the price before he set me up as the dealer. If
> you are upset about the increase, you should take it up with him, and
> not me!!!! Jim is the master distributor of Pro-Caps worldwide and HE
> SETS THE PRICES, NOT ME!!!!
>
> Anybody who has ever run a business can relate to the concept running
> a business to make a profit.
>
Those of us, who have been shopping around in this audio bussiness for a
while, are aware of the high profit margins of a lot of "specialist"
audio components.
Just one example: Look at the prices of similar Audio Note capacitors!
And yet, I have not noticed many people complaining so much, even
though those silver caps cost about 7 times the present prices of Pro
Caps.
In my opinion, what made people so angry this time, was the fact that
first prices of Pro Caps showed that such components could be sold at so
much lower prices! It just makes one re-think again what profit margins
we have been paying for so many similar components. It was just this
little clumsiness of Mr. Wilson, that he started with those prices. And
whoever... - don't insult my intelligence by telling me he was making no
profit at those prices. If he kept those prices, he would have ruined
many a capacitor business, if you ask me. And I don't think those
businesses would just watch Jim Wilson doing it...
> 2. Jim has made me exclusive distributor of Pro-Caps for North and
> South America as well as all of ASIA. Other vendors overseas are
> handling other countries.
I am sure the distributorship will bring you good money.
> 3. RAT members are free to choose the caps they want to use in their
> amp and are under no obligation to buy these caps or any other caps
> from me.
I have tried the Pro Caps and I like them. When I have the need, I will
buy more. I think they are worth the money, if I compare them to other
similar caps.
> 4. Regardless of certain individual opinions on this newsgroup, I
> will continue to sell Pro-Caps and so far, have several satisfied
> customers.
And you will have more...
> PS: I would like to thank individuals who complained about the price
> increase for the free publicity on this newsgroup. This has generated
> quite a bit of business for me!! THANKS GUYS!!!!
> Best regards to all the positive folks in this news group who don't
> take themselves or this hobby too seriously.
All right up to now, Charlie, but do you feel you are doing yourself a
favor by making such comments?
> Have fun and enjoy!!!
You too, Charlie!
> Charlie Kittleson
> Vacuum Tube Valley
PS.: In case you're asking us why do we comment your posts - it is also
because we cannot comment Jim Wilson's posts, as there aren't any.
Andrej Deticek