Kikusui ORC-27A tubed oscilator mods.
Patrick Turner
and from 2Hz to 200kHz at 2.5V maximum output.
But I have not got a square wave function yet for that, and even with
output clamping diodes there is still some danger of a stray input from
a tube amp anode supply damaging the unit if it gets in the input RCA
lead.
I found I had Kikusui oscillator model ORC-27A made in Japan probably
in the 1950s. It has a radio twin gang tuning cap with each gang about
40pF to 400pF and with a resistance range of 20k to 20M for the 4
ranges, 20Hz to 20kHz, although it actually goes from 19 to 250 on the
dial which is accurate within 1% and not bad for a simple cheap thing
made in Japan at that time.
There is a 6AV6 input tube ans following 6AQ5 for the oscillator, then a
12AT7 for square wave, able to be switched in, and a final 6AQ5 CF
output buffer. Rectfier is a 6X4. Not many repairs had been done by
others over the years although the 10k output pot had been replaced. The
output tube is a 6AQ5 pentode wired as a triode CF with the 10k pot as
the dc carrying cathode load, and the wiper of the pot goes to a 20uF
electro and then to the output. I don't like the use of pots with dc
flow through them so I replaced this carbon track pot with 10mA dc with
a 12mAdc CCS using KSE340 between cathode and 0V. The output from the
cathode is now via 10uF rated for 450V to a 10k log pot for the high
output range level taken from the wiper to an RCA socket instead of the
old 4mm banana socket that was there originally. Then I have a 1k log
pot in series with the bottom of the 10k pot and 0V and wired so the low
-20dB approx level can be taken out to a second low level output RCA
socket. This arrangement gives nice fine adjustments of 2 outputs
regardless of the levels, and the 27A can sure pump out the voltage,
some 8Vrms even at 250kHz.
The CCS use means means the CF works with only the cap coupled load of
the two output series pots totaling 11k, so its THD is fairly low.
The 27A does not use a NFB lamp globe for the dynamic adjustment of the
NFB loop. Ah no, the Japs were somewhat brighter than the average nerd
in the US from say HP and they have what looks like a lamp bulb in what
looks like the wrong position in the NFB R network.
In the 27A, there is a thermistor mounted within a glass lamp bulb and
suspended between two very fine wires that look like a lamp filament.
This thermistor screws in to a socket just like a 6.3 dial light bulb,
and its resistance at room temp is 100kohms. At operation in the circuit
it has 8Vrms across it and by calculating voltage and currents in the
circuit I figured its R = 5k approx. As the V0 rises, the thermistor
current rises and heats it up and its resistance falls thus increasing
the amount of NFB. There is a 6AV6 input triode driving a 6AQ5 in
pentode with 4.7 dc anode load. The 6AV6 cathode R = 2k2, and the load
looking at the cathode with NFB is 2.5k effectively so that the NFB
network forms a load of 7.5k with 5k thermistor added. So with the 4k7
dc load the total ac & dc loads in parallel on the 6AQ5 = about 2.9k.
The thermistor gives far better NFB regulation and freedom from bounce
compared to a special lamp globe used in the bottom or cathode end of
the NFB network.
For square waves, The 27A has a 12AT7 set up to operate a grossly
overloaded cascaded pair, and the peak output voltage with square wave
is close to the same as the peak sine wave voltage, which is as it
should be. The square wave isn't too good at 200kHz, because the highest
F present is about 250kHz. But this is still the case if you set the F
to 5kHz, and then the square wave looks nice and square and its just
right to test tube audio amps for instability and overshoot/ringing
because the ring F will always be less than 250kHz usually.
The 27A also has a "complex" wave which is the original sine wave plus a
mains F added in nearly equal amplitude, so that gross intermodulation
artifacts could be seen if one needs to. An amp tested with such a two
tone signal need only have a following simple multi section CR HP filter
so that all you see on the CRO is the HF of interest. If the HF
amplitude becomes visibly amplitude modulated then you have about 2%
IMD, and you can make all your own conclusions about the performance of
the amp. IMD suddenly becomes very visible when the amp begins to clip,
and gross envelope distortions develop. 27A could easily be adjusted so
the mains F signal taken from one side of the HT winding and fed into
the 12AT7 while *not* being over driven is such that the ratio of HF to
LF signal = 1:4, and this complex signal is in fact the old standard two
tone signal for measuring IMD percentage. In music, bass signals
commonly average 4 times the amplitude as treble signals and thus bass
produce 16 times the load power as do mid&treble signals. Therefore we
should be acutely interested in seeing just what effect on mid&treble
tones is caused by the amp simultaneously amplifying large amounts of
bass energies.
The use of the 12AT7 to mix two signals so the output is a much smaller
voltage than the normal oscillator sine wave output of 8Vrms means that
the 12AT7 does not generate huge amounts of IMD itself. Usually, while
an amplifier operates under the clipping level, the IMD at the onset of
clipping is all we want to know and then we can estimate the maximum IMD
at low voltages proportionately to output voltage.
It is very rare that the IMD would be high in a tube amp at low levels
where class A action prevails, but with class AB there could be a peak
in IMD (and for THD) as the output level is reduced towards zero. Crook
OPTs don't help either.
Where one wants to find out what are the F and voltages of IMD artifacts
at all levels then much more sophisticated methods should be used and
with purer tones to begin with.
The 27A THD at 1kHz isn't extremely low because the open loop gain of
6AV6 plus 6AQ5 is only 57, and reduced by the NFB to about 3. And the
wien bridge positive FB network can pass considerable 2H and so we will
see maybe 0.15% in the output. The H above 2H are much more attenuated
by the WB network. If H above 2H do appear at the output then 1/3 of
them appear at the NFB input port without much of them also appearing at
the PFB port, so the NFB action then works to reduce the higher H (and
any LF noise below the fundamental Fo).
The opamp oscillator I made has far lower THD of less than 0.01% simply
because it has vastly more open loop gain than a pair of simple tubes,
and THD reduces according to the formula THD with FB = THD without FB /
( 1 + [gain x ß] ).
In WB oscillators, ß, the fraction of the output fed back is always
0.33. So the more gain, the less distortion.
For ordinary bandwidth and power measurements and general functions, the
20Hz to 200kHz range is enough for most folks.
But I like to see what happens **below** 20hz and its often down here
that am amp under test will shown a nasty peak in its response due to
the poor arrangement of stabilizing & phase compensation networks, and
it may oscillate at LF if left without a load connected. Hence the need
to test right down to 2Hz if possible. I often test up to 2MHz, but
usually 250kHz is enough.
Anyway, the Kikusui with a diode clamp to protect its CCS at the output
will be able to withstand occasional blats from the RCA lead
accidentally falling against 24V mains or onto anode voltages. Even a
lightning strike will be tolerated.
But anything with SS chips is always prone to gradual or sudden total
fuct-uppness from HV. That's how my Topward gene finally became too much
carbon to be able to fix anymore. I found I did have another SS function
gene and I have tried to repair it. It was made in Oz by BWD Instruments
P/L in Melbourne, their model no 160A, from about 1985 maybe. BWD seems
to have gone from the scene. It has oddball chips. One seems to be an AM
generator, P250 NPD 8303, and the other is a sine/square/triangle
generator FUA 7600 MQB 7906.
I searched these numbers in Google and drew a blank. Maybe the letters
on the chip, FUA stand for "fuck youse all". The power voltages are
present but the chip is dead, nothing burnt anywhere else, and the 4
regs and 10 other discrete bjts all seem OK and the other several
opamps.
Bah, all that SS stuff just to make a bit of a signal to test a tube amp
is not really required by the serious audio experimenter.
When you look into the under chassis things in the Kikusui, you see
-40dB less parts than in the SS genies. And my old Topward had twice the
parts of the BWD!.
On my way around the web, I found a program for converting a PC into an
oscilloscope called 'winscope', and a free download as well.
http://madan.wordpress.com/2006/06/25/pc-based-osciloscope-winscope-251/
But the actual virtual oscilloscope screen size allowed when using it is
tiny, and a bigger display would be nice.
Does anyone know of a better ***free*** one?
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
>
> I did have another SS function
> gene and I have tried to repair it. It was made in Oz by BWD Instruments
> P/L in Melbourne, their model no 160A, from about 1985 maybe. BWD seems
> to have gone from the scene. It has oddball chips. One seems to be an AM
> generator, P250 NPD 8303, and the other is a sine/square/triangle
> generator FUA 7600 MQB 7906.
** The " NPD8303 " ( 8 pin DIL) is a dual, N ch JFET made by national
Semi - used in many BWD scopes as the input pair for the vertical
amplifiers. Google gives many hits.
" uA7600 " resembles a Fairchild number, if so " FuA7600 " would be
printed on the device.
A Fairchild " uA760" exists - it's a high speed differential comparator.
7906 is a date code for the 6th week of 1979.
.... Phil
Alex
"Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:49940A5B...@turneraudio.com.au...
From what you wrote it sonds that the Kikusui generator was relatively
*smartly* designed. Apparently that engineer thought it through.
My impression with the japanese electronics of the 60's is that it was
neatly assembled, but brainlessly designed.
One example is the Trio shortwave radio 9R-59DS. Imagine the circuit of the
LO (up to 30MHz) where the inductor is about 18cm away from the tuning
capacitor and these components are connected by an insulated sloppy wire,
tied in a loom with other conductors (!) to make it look tidier...
Regards,
Alex
Patrick Turner
Thanks Phil.
I couldn't find a schematic anywhwere for the BWD 160A function gene.
It has a nicely made green metal case, and may have been bought by the
Army because of a sticker on the back, but probably later bought at an
auction. Matching green power cable. But incomprehensible and very
fragile electronics inside.
The guy who donated it to me must have zapped it with HV probably and
one negative -6V reg was missing, and a -15V stuffed.
After replacing these and some other parts obviously zapped, still no
life anywhere.
Even if I could get more data than I have about the chips, (ie,
virtually SFA,) I'd still need a schematic to analyse what might be
wrong.
Being so short of time due to huge workload meant the
"fix-the-old-tube-banger" was the easier option.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
We must recall that the Japs were able to get aircraft airborne that
could do wondrous things in WW2, and all with far less weight and
complexity than the US planes that shot them down if they didn't get
shot down first.
A lot of crap came out of Japan in the 50s and 60s, heck, their country
had been ravaged by 1945 and its a miracle they were able to sell any
exports. The crap factor didn't matter because it was so much cheaper
than the Australian made crap. And lemme tellya, there was a lotta Oz
crap masquerading as fancy electronics.
>
> One example is the Trio shortwave radio 9R-59DS. Imagine the circuit of the
> LO (up to 30MHz) where the inductor is about 18cm away from the tuning
> capacitor and these components are connected by an insulated sloppy wire,
> tied in a loom with other conductors (!) to make it look tidier...
The crap floods in from China now; ppl love it, its so
CCCCHHHHEEEEAAAPPPP.
Always buy two items if made in China because you'll need one for
tommorrow while the other one is being repaired.
Patrick Turner.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
>
> I found I had Kikusui oscillator model ORC-27A made in Japan probably
> in the 1950s. It has a radio twin gang tuning cap with each gang about
> 40pF to 400pF and with a resistance range of 20k to 20M for the 4
> ranges, 20Hz to 20kHz, although it actually goes from 19 to 250 on the
> dial which is accurate within 1% and not bad for a simple cheap thing
> made in Japan at that time.
>
> There is a 6AV6 input tube ans following 6AQ5 for the oscillator, then a
> 12AT7 for square wave, able to be switched in, and a final 6AQ5 CF
> output buffer. Rectfier is a 6X4. Not many repairs had been done by
> others over the years although the 10k output pot had been replaced. The
> output tube is a 6AQ5 pentode wired as a triode CF with the 10k pot as
> the dc carrying cathode load, and the wiper of the pot goes to a 20uF
> electro and then to the output.
** See page 12 of the technical manual for a *schematic* of the Kikusui
unit.
http://www.kikusui.co.jp/kiku_manuals/O/ORC27A_J.PDF
Shame the description is all in Japanese and Google's translator *refused*
to help.
Seems the original did not use 6AQ5s but the similar, lower power 6AR5s.
Use of vacuum glass bead NTC thermistors for stabilisation became almost
universal in Wien bridge oscillators - once the things became readily
available.
The square wave converter is crude, it is far superior to use the 12AT7 as a
Schmitt trigger ( dates from 1934) for that job - see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger
Here is an Operation Manual in English.
http://www.kikusui.co.jp/kiku_manuals/O/ORC27A_E.PDF
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
You'd be time and money ahead. They are cheap, very well documented
and bulletproof.
Arny Krueger
> The thermistor gives far better NFB regulation and freedom from bounce
> compared to a special lamp globe used in the bottom or cathode end of
> the NFB network.
Not really. IME there is no particular problem getting entirely adequate NFB
regulation out of an appropriately-chosen lamp or thermistor. The problem
with either of them is that their action is based on their thermal time
constant, of which they unfortunately can have only one. In the end their
thermal time constant is too short at low frequencies, they tend to track
low frequency waves, and that causes nonlinear distortion. A time constant
that is long and thus OK for low frequencies is too long for high
frequencies, and that gives you the problems with amplitude modulation at
high frequencies.
I guess you could switch in different light bulbs or thermistors depending
on the frequency range.
The four-terminal approaches (opto-isolator, FET, analog multiplier) allow
you to optimize this time constant because it is in the feedback path, which
is isolated from the Wein Bridge or State Variable Filter by the 4-terminal
device.
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner"
> >
> > I found I had Kikusui oscillator model ORC-27A made in Japan probably
> > in the 1950s. It has a radio twin gang tuning cap with each gang about
> > 40pF to 400pF and with a resistance range of 20k to 20M for the 4
> > ranges, 20Hz to 20kHz, although it actually goes from 19 to 250 on the
> > dial which is accurate within 1% and not bad for a simple cheap thing
> > made in Japan at that time.
> >
> > There is a 6AV6 input tube ans following 6AQ5 for the oscillator, then a
> > 12AT7 for square wave, able to be switched in, and a final 6AQ5 CF
> > output buffer. Rectfier is a 6X4. Not many repairs had been done by
> > others over the years although the 10k output pot had been replaced. The
> > output tube is a 6AQ5 pentode wired as a triode CF with the 10k pot as
> > the dc carrying cathode load, and the wiper of the pot goes to a 20uF
> > electro and then to the output.
>
> ** See page 12 of the technical manual for a *schematic* of the Kikusui
> unit.
>
> http://www.kikusui.co.jp/kiku_manuals/O/ORC27A_J.PDF
>
> Shame the description is all in Japanese and Google's translator *refused*
> to help.
Thanks Phil,
I already had found the schematic for the 27A, but it is very simple
when you see the under chassis and it can easily be traced out.
>
> Seems the original did not use 6AQ5s but the similar, lower power 6AR5s.
>
> Use of vacuum glass bead NTC thermistors for stabilisation became almost
> universal in Wien bridge oscillators - once the things became readily
> available.
>
> The square wave converter is crude, it is far superior to use the 12AT7 as a
> Schmitt trigger ( dates from 1934) for that job - see:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger
Maybe I can convert the 12AT7 in the 27A to schmitt trigger
operation....
>
> Here is an Operation Manual in English.
>
> http://www.kikusui.co.jp/kiku_manuals/O/ORC27A_E.PDF
Thanks for the link which adds to the pile I have on the Kikusui27A.
I'd reckon a 40H choke added in series to the 4.7 anode load of the
first 6AQ5 in the oscilator would double its gain for most F because of
the increase in load ohms so the THD would fall considerably.
The schmitt T for a better looking square wave with a faster rise time
would be my first priority.
Patrick Turner.
>
> ..... Phil
Phil Allison
"flipper"
>Patrick Turner
>
>>We must recall that the Japs were able to get aircraft airborne that
>>could do wondrous things in WW2, and all with far less weight and
>>complexity than the US planes that shot them down if they didn't get
>>shot down first.
>
>
> like self sealing tanks and armor,
** Nonsense.
The Grumman Hellcat had an empty weight MORE than double that of the
Mitsubishi Zero ( 9000lb v 3900lb ).
A couple of small steel plates behind the pilot and some rubber bags do not
account for that.
> which is easy to justify when you
> don't give a flying flip about your pilot's lives.
** Not true at all.
American pilots flying Buffalos, Wildcats, Ariacobras and other assorted
flying junk were being sent on virtual *suicide missions* when up against
Japanese Navy pilots flying Zeros.
In 1942, the Brits sent 24 of their latest Spitfires to Australia to help
us deal with the Zero menace around the Darwin area - within a fortnight,
Zeros had destroyed almost all of them without loss.
Remember that unlike in Europe, few allied pilots survived being shot down
in the Pacific war - cos they ended up in the ocean or the jungle.
Instructions were soon issued to Allied pilots to NEVER engage in a
turning battle (ie dog fight) with a Zero - " or you will be shot down ".
BTW, another great advantage of lightweight design was that a Zero had
double or more the range of it adversaries. This meant they could and did
operate from land bases and aircraft carriers that were well beyond the
range of Allied fighters.
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
flipper wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:39:10 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
snip,
> >On my way around the web, I found a program for converting a PC into an
> >oscilloscope called 'winscope', and a free download as well.
> >
> >http://madan.wordpress.com/2006/06/25/pc-based-osciloscope-winscope-251/
> >
> >But the actual virtual oscilloscope screen size allowed when using it is
> >tiny, and a bigger display would be nice.
> >
> >Does anyone know of a better ***free*** one?
>
> Try "Visual Analyser "
>
> http://www.sillanumsoft.org/
This one wouldn't fully auto install on my pc with XP.
There wasn't any way I could just click on a desktop icon and have it
begin to run...
Patrick Turner.
>
> Another choice with those old, old, software scopes (like winscope) is
> to lower your screen resolution so they appear bigger.
>
> >Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>> ** See page 12 of the technical manual for a *schematic* of the Kikusui
>> unit.
>>
>> http://www.kikusui.co.jp/kiku_manuals/O/ORC27A_J.PDF
>>
>> Shame the description is all in Japanese and Google's translator
>> *refused*
>> to help.
>
>
** The link was for OTHER people's benefit - pal.
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
I have yet another tubed oscillator with lamp regulation of the NFB, and
with a better range than the HP.
I was given this one as well, originally made for the PMG linesmen to
use to test telephone lines in the 1950s and soon I found it needed a
big up-grade to widen the F ranges and make it perform better, so that
got gutted and I totally re-designed and re-built it.
Its got 12AT7 input, 6AC7 gain pentode, and direct coupled 6CM5 buffer
CF output stage. No square wave though.
Its also got a wider F range than the HP.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:49940A5B...@turneraudio.com.au...
>
> > The thermistor gives far better NFB regulation and freedom from bounce
> > compared to a special lamp globe used in the bottom or cathode end of
> > the NFB network.
>
> Not really. IME there is no particular problem getting entirely adequate NFB
> regulation out of an appropriately-chosen lamp or thermistor.
I have always found that lamp regulation of the NFB leads to bounce and
AM, ie, poor settling when F is changed.
> The problem
> with either of them is that their action is based on their thermal time
> constant, of which they unfortunately can have only one. In the end their
> thermal time constant is too short at low frequencies, they tend to track
> low frequency waves, and that causes nonlinear distortion. A time constant
> that is long and thus OK for low frequencies is too long for high
> frequencies, and that gives you the problems with amplitude modulation at
> high frequencies.
Indeed there are bothers with lamps...
>
> I guess you could switch in different light bulbs or thermistors depending
> on the frequency range.
Complicates matters; a different switch is needed....
>
> The four-terminal approaches (opto-isolator, FET, analog multiplier) allow
> you to optimize this time constant because it is in the feedback path, which
> is isolated from the Wein Bridge or State Variable Filter by the 4-terminal
> device.
I have not given the fet based variable R a trial yet. I have several
fet and bjt variable R which rectify the output voltage to give a
negative going voltage which biases a fet or BJT more off so that its
collector/drain resistance rises allowing more NFB to be applied and
reduce the VO to the wanted level.
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
>
> I have always found that lamp regulation of the NFB leads to bounce and
> AM, ie, poor settling when F is changed.
** It don't if you run the lamp up near normal brightness.
And it must be a tiny bulb, well under 1 watt rating.
.... Phil
Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger"
>
> Not really. IME there is no particular problem getting entirely adequate
> NFB regulation out of an appropriately-chosen lamp or thermistor. The
> problem with either of them is that their action is based on their thermal
> time constant, of which they unfortunately can have only one. In the end
> their thermal time constant is too short at low frequencies, they tend to
> track low frequency waves, and that causes nonlinear distortion.
** But not very much with a glass bead thermistor - ie RA 53 or RA 54.
A THD of 0.05% at 50 Hz would be typical with them.
A time constant
> that is long and thus OK for low frequencies is too long for high
> frequencies, and that gives you the problems with amplitude modulation at
> high frequencies.
** Any number of thermistor stabilised Wien bridge audio oscillators ( low
cost, valve or SS bench units) operate out to 1MHz.
But I have not seen that achieved with an op-amp based design.
...... Phil
Patrick Turner
The lamp bulb wattage/voltage etc depends on whether your'e doing a tube
oscillator or SS thing with a chip, and usually for tubes you can't get
a suitable bulb with high enough resistance so the FB resistor in series
with it can be a high value so it doesn't load the tube down too much.
For SS opamps, a little "grain of wheat lamp" will do, and since the
output voltage might only be 3V max, then the whole FB network can have
a low resistance of under 1,000 ohms and you won't overload the chip.
I have used a lot of little lamps of low voltage in series that worked
well for some oscillators. I never found the lamps needed to glow bright
to get minimum bounce. Dull red is better I found because that's the
area of operation where you have considerable resistance variation for
the change in filament current, to the NFB acts more sharply swiftly to
control amplitude. Some limiting zeners are usually also needed.
I've built or re-built several wien bridge oscillators, and unless you
have the right lamp they are a PITA. In fact the lowest THD is when you
have the FB set so the output is a few db below maximum for the circuit.
Then it tends to bounce though. OK for a fixed F oscillator though.
So in a variable F oscillator I usually compromise a little and allow
THD to be slightly higher than I'd really like but under 0.1% and so the
opamp or tubes are very close to clipping.
And you also need a good adjustable pot. I have found the radio tuning
caps gave less bounce. The two caps of the gang wil have much better C
change equality and calibration and marking the F on the dial give more
evenly spaced F marks. Log pots are notoriously not a true log thing at
all and the rate of change varies from true log a heck of a lot so when
you calibrate you end up with some part of the band all bunched up on
the dial. Getting good dual gang pots is a bit like finding a needle in
the haystack unless your pockets are deep. The inevitable noise of a pot
causes bounce. The best idea for a cap based WB tuning is to use two 3
gang caps tied together with double hweels and dial cords so that C is 3
times the normal amount for most WB oscillators. This allows the
resistors to be up to 30M, and you get down to below 10Hz and you should
get up to 500kHz in 5 ranges if the output devices are capable of
driving the low positive feedback RC network at the wanted output
voltage. But for the bottom range, to avoid the use of high value R one
may use variable resistance and fixed C.
Tonight I tried a simple tube Schmitt Trigger instead of the cascade
seriesed 12AT7 as exists in the Kikusui. Nothing worked as well as the
existing circuit. Far more parts had to be added for the ST than what
are shown on the existing schematic. I went back to using the existing
square wave circuit after finding the ST tended to give a poor square
wave at low F and was not the slightest bit better at HF, and 12AU7 was
all I could use. If I tried 12AT7, the LF was no better at all and then
above 100kHz the damn thing oscillated at RF. When I tried changing any
Kikusui R value anywhere the circuit worked worsely. Some PFB applied
from output to grid input with a couple of pf made the rube oscillate at
RF when you brought the F range above 100kHz.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find a single ST schematic for tubes on the
Net that was any good. Those I found in 3 text books I have were not
practical circuits and when I first got them to work a bit they have the
most appallingly distorted square waves. Obviously, to make a really
good ST with a few discrete parts takes days and days of R&D to get the
bugs out, and get performance up. Those Japs sure knew what they were
doing. I'm sticking with the Japanese square wave circuit; so simple and
reliable! I do recall seeing a schematic once of a Schmitt which was
reputed to give good performance and a faster rise time than in my
circuit but it had added parts all over the place and was quite complex.
I don't remember the details of all the circuits I see.
The Kikusui is together again and tested fully. I have put in slightly
better filtering for B+, the Hi and Lo ranges for adjustment ease, and
got rid of the damn DC flow in the output pot. The output tubes are 6AR5
BTW, not 6AQ5. I have 33uF between the 6AR5 and the 11k of output pots
which ensures there isn't too much tilt in the square wave horizontals
at 20Hz. Great at 1kHz.
It makes 14pk volts in either sine or square wave. I have a couple of
15V x 5W zeners plus two diodes in series with each to act as a clamp on
the output just after the cap off the CF cathode. The high output
terminals have series 4k7 from the pot so that Rout is up to 7k5 for
high out, and the low out has Rout max of 900 ohms. Rout is variable
somewhat, and an an additional CF buffer would be needed to reduce Rout
or have a predictable Rout for all Vo levels. When changing from sine
wave to square wave to complex wave functions there is a big LF
transient as the dc settles for each function. The clamp acts to limit
the output swings to +/- 16.5V peak, so a big dc transient won't upset
sensitive gear of zap some fragile SS gear I may be testing.
If there ever was a big Vdc applied to the input, the worst that can
happen is that a couple of 4k7 resistors fry, or the pots get fried and
these are not difficult or expensive to replace, unlike the Topward or
other SS PITAs which fry expensively.
Patrick Turner.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
>
> The Grumman Hellcat had an empty weight MORE than double that of the
> Mitsubishi Zero ( 9000lb v 3900lb ).
>
> A couple of small steel plates behind the pilot and some rubber bags do not
> account for that.
The Grummans were all highly robust aircraft and the Wildcat and
Hellcat are still very popular warbirds. The Zero would not take much
pounding and they tended to have short service lives. In terms of
safety and protection Grummans in particular always set the standard.
>
> > which is easy to justify when you
> > don't give a flying flip about your pilot's lives.
>
> ** Not true at all.
>
> American pilots flying Buffalos, Wildcats, Ariacobras and other assorted
> flying junk were being sent on virtual *suicide missions* when up against
> Japanese Navy pilots flying Zeros.
Neither the Wildcat nor the Airacobra were or are "flying junk". The
Wildcat was the monoplane derivative of the classic Grumman biplane
fighters (most of which were scrapped in WWII despite aluminum not
being a particularly scarce commodity in the US) and was an earlier
aircraft whilst the Airacobra was intended for ground support
primarily.
>
> In 1942, the Brits sent 24 of their latest Spitfires to Australia to help
> us deal with the Zero menace around the Darwin area - within a fortnight,
> Zeros had destroyed almost all of them without loss.
>
> Remember that unlike in Europe, few allied pilots survived being shot down
> in the Pacific war - cos they ended up in the ocean or the jungle.
>
> Instructions were soon issued to Allied pilots to NEVER engage in a
> turning battle (ie dog fight) with a Zero - " or you will be shot down ".
>
> BTW, another great advantage of lightweight design was that a Zero had
> double or more the range of it adversaries. This meant they could and did
> operate from land bases and aircraft carriers that were well beyond the
> range of Allied fighters.
By the later Marks of Spitfire and especially with the P-38 and P-51
the Zero was at considerable disadvantage. In fact, the obsolescent
P-40 was capable of dealing with the Zero once the relative strengths
and weaknesses were figured out.
BTW, how much taildragger time do you have, Phil?
mebrat...@yahoo.com
The HP 200CD goes up to 600 kHz, which is way over what an audio
generator is good for. Above that you want a proper RF generator with
AM and FM and proper shielding. I bet its distortion is way lower too.
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com
The HP 200CD goes up to 600 kHz, which is way over what an audio
generator is good for. Above that you want a proper RF generator with
AM and FM and proper shielding.
** OK
> I bet its distortion is way lower too.
** Nonsense.
Typical RF oscillators typically have HIGH levels of harmonics in their
outputs - deliberately.
Extends their useful frequency range to many times the base range.
...... Phil
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com>
= Some fucking tenth witted Yank MORON !!
> American pilots flying Buffalos, Wildcats, Ariacobras and other assorted
> flying junk were being sent on virtual *suicide missions* when up against
> Japanese Navy pilots flying Zeros.
Neither the Wildcat nor the Airacobra were or are "flying junk".
** Tell that to all the widows and bereaved mothers of USAAF and US Navy
pilots who flew the junk and got shot to hell by Japanese Zeros in the
Pacific.
IMBECILE !!!
> In 1942, the Brits sent 24 of their latest Spitfires to Australia to help
> us deal with the Zero menace around the Darwin area - within a fortnight,
> Zeros had destroyed almost all of them without loss.
>
> Remember that unlike in Europe, few allied pilots survived being shot down
> in the Pacific war - cos they ended up in the ocean or the jungle.
>
> Instructions were soon issued to Allied pilots to NEVER engage in a
> turning battle (ie dog fight) with a Zero - " or you will be shot down ".
>
> BTW, another great advantage of lightweight design was that a Zero had
> double or more the range of it adversaries. This meant they could and did
> operate from land bases and aircraft carriers that were well beyond the
> range of Allied fighters.
( snip irrelevant tripe unquoted from this FUCKWIT'S Google search )
** You have ignored EVERY SINGLE THING that I posted.
Co you have no case to post.
Cos you are a fucking useless, ignorant pile of Septic Shit.
Fuck off.
.... Phil
Patrick Turner
I guess I should have known that some mention of Japanese expertise
during and after WW2 might be seen as the action of a traitor to the
American Way. I should have expected to get an argument about who shot
who out of the skies in WW2, but I forgot there must be some old
ex-servicemen out there who would love a chance to say their bit about
the positive performances of allied war hardware and play down the
achievements of the Japanese. I can only thank the old guys for their
efforts to spare the free world from those who'd gladly have a world in
chains, or gas chambers. Hitler and Tojo needed some persuasion. And the
unemployed in the US finally got a job in 1939.
The Japs were, IMHO both fools and fuctards to pick a fight with the USA
of all countries.
But after WW2 when i was born I saw the war as my father's war, and not
a war of my generation, and just to make the peace a lasting one since
1945 many offspring of men who served long years away from home then
went and married Japanese women. My cousin of about my age sure did, and
he and his japanese wife have produced two very fine young people. And
when he got fat and bone lazy and forgot how to woo her in his late
fifties she left him and met and married a dance instructor to begin a
new life with new vigour and vibrant intimacy. You can't hold a good
woman down. I only met her once, and boy, what a dame!
So when your wife wants to go dancing at age 50, you better try to join
her, and get your act together or you may loose what you cherish.
The mix of genes wasn't such bad way to finally resolve WW2 issues.
So the philosophical issues about WW2 are dominant in my mind rather
than the technical issues about who had what.
Of course after WW2 the mighty energy of the Japanese people was
directed towards peaceful persuits and these included making marvellous
electronics, cars, and cameras better than anyone else and OK the rulers
of Japan did make mistakes, but the people sure earned my forgiveness
even though not from everyone.
Now let's get back to ye old oscillators.
I went back to building a Schmitt Trigger square wave generator today on
another test circuit and even a "fast" high gm triode like the 6DJ8
would not produce a trigerable square wave with a fast rise time, ie,
the square wave didn't have any harmonic contet above 250kHz.
And after much mucking around the damn thing seemed to want to oscillate
on its own and not be controlled by the triggering sine wave input. So I
went to the idea of using a 6BX6 pentode set up like a limiting circuit
in an FM reciever IF stage where the 10.7MHz signal is made immune to
input signal amplitude changes because the pentode is run as one that is
grossly overloaded by the input signal, or into deep clipping. This
worked OK but the symmetry of the square wave produced had top
horizontals much longer than the bottom horizontals of the square wave.
So I then made the anode load (between B+ of 250V and anode at 100V) as
a pair of 6k8 in series. From the center point of the two 6k8, I took a
680k to a 22uF to ground so the 22uF was biased up to the Vdc at the 6k8
junction. Fron the 6k8 junction I connected a zener diode clamp with two
6.8V zeners plus each having a backward series diode to allow a voltage
of +/- 7.5Vpk to exist above abd below the 22uF bias voltage. Then I
remeasured, using a better probe with low capacitance to the CRO and
found I had a **really nice** looking square wave even with a
fundemental at 240kHz. I calculated while looking at the 240kHz wave on
the CRO that F content was now up to about 5MHz at least. The squarewave
at 240kHz was nice and stable with no parasitics, and the input voltage
only needed to be 3vrms from a source with 5k ohms source impedance, and
the zener clamps acted just fine to to procude a very flat amplitude
wave from 2Hz to 240kHz, and exactly what I wanted.
There is no need for me to explore any further but when I return to the
Kikusui oscillator later this week I will remove the original circuit of
the 12AT7 square wave gene and replace it with a 6BX6. I have dozens of
them, but a 6AU6 would also be ideal for seven pin sockets, or a 6AC7
for octal freaks. I will explore ways to slightly reduce the maximum
Vout of the oscillator because 10Vrms sine wave is a bit more than I
want; 7V would be fine, which would allow a better HF wave, and then its
easier to make a decent 10V peak square wave so that the square wave
output equals the peak amplitude of the sine wave.
Other 6BX6 conditions need explaining. The screen is fed by 56k from
+250V, and bypassed to cathode with 10uF. The cathode has Rk = 200 ohms
and bypassed with 220uF. For the grid 1 drive, source resistance can be
5k from a tube cathode follower if one wants and with a cap of say
0.47uF as the coupling cap. Grid bias R = 470k, but because grid current
flows a considerable negative Vdc can be measured at the grid. To avoid
such a big rise in -Vdc, use diode between grid and 0V with k to grid
and a to 0V. This helps make the output square wave have equal length
horizontals.
Phil, do you have any objection of my combination of 2009 Australian
igenuity with WW2 type of Japanese simplicity?
I knew old guys who hated the Japs until they died, but I never could
hate them.
And for those old flyers wanting to argue over who shot who, perhaps
they should consider the past is over. Consider yourselves lucky the
Germans didn't get the A-bomb before the mainly ex-european scientists
invented one for you at Los Allamos.
Last week about 200 people died by being burned to death in bushfires in
Victoria. About 1,800 dwellings were burnt to a crisp. But this is
trifling compared to the civilian losses due to fire bombing Japanese
and German cities by the Allies. Then they nuked a couple of Jap cities.
Sometimes we have to fight a war, then hang our heads in shame.
Now we have a war we need to make on the financial crisis, so forget
WW2. And this month the profit statements from companies roll in and it
will all be bad news. What solution do the good ol boys of WW2 vintage
have? Perhaps the US will still have to solve the problem with the
printing press, so just watch your standard of living plummet when that
happens. Then we have the war on greenhouse to fight. Reports now coming
in say the problem is far worse than we thought.
Meanwhile I delayed my ride this morning due to rain, and sat awhile in
my shed with hot soldering iron for 3 hours to solve a square wave
problem fairly simply.
Then I went out for a quick 55k ride to Mt Stromlo which bore the brunt
of the 2003 fire storms in Canberra which fried 500 dwellings and killed
4 people. People don't remember that in 2002 and with hot westerly windy
weather a fuctard lit a fire in the Weston Creek area on the west side
of Canberra and it took out a couple of crucial square miles of pine
forest and it was sheer luck the blaze didn't penetrate further than it
did. Nobody died, and property loss was low. I don't recall they caught
the bastard, and if they did, many would want to tie him to a stake and
barbecue him slowly. Anyway, when the 2003 fires occured naturraly, they
burned right up to the suburban city west side but couldn't burn as far
as they most certainly would have if the arsonist hadn't lit the fire
the year before. Nobody else expresses this opinion, but things could
have been **far worse**!. But lemme tell ya, living down wind of
prevailing winds in or near thickly dense forests dry as tinder which
are not regularly cleaned out presents a real danger. The US has its
tornados and hurricanes to deal with and in southern Oz we have the
bushfires, except we haven't faced up to the fact that if we live in a
forest you need a fire proof bunker. Nobody gets around to controlling
forest litter soon enough before disaster strikes. Nobody wants to build
an expensive ugly house capable of withstanding gale force winds at 900C
and with blown burning debris such as complete large up-rooted trees
flying around. In 2003, a couple of houses had large flying trees
descend onto roofs and plant themselves in the house.
Australians love the bush, we really do, but its a damned hazard if you
live in the middle of it. People get all cosy with the wildlife, and
then one day it all gets cooked to death. Even birds are not all able to
fly away. At Mt stromlo there were several large telescopes for its
astronomical observatory which was established in the 1920s, and there
had been threats from fires before. The 2003 fires sent the temperatures
inside the domes to 1,000C and totally wrecked all the telescopes.
Amazingly other buildings there survived, and these days kangaroos graze
on the bit of grass outside a disused restaurant that was a very nice
place to visit prior to 2003.
Patrick Turner.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> <mebratziuj...@yahoo.com
Lab grade ones use heterodyning and extensive tracking filters, non
lab grade ones should be parted out or dumped in salt water.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
ingenuity and determination as well as their racial cohesion. I think
FDR deliberately provoked them to attack Pearl Harbor and knew it was
coming and said nothing. I think he should have been machine gunned
down in his wheelchair. That said, we whipped their asses but good,
totally subjugated them.
Some of the old timers really hated the Japs forevermore and of the
small percentage still alive some still do. Most got over it once the
war was won and won decicively. A lot of the WWII career men served in
Japan with US forces and came to greatly respect them. My own
grandfather on my father's side would not ride in a Japanese car nor
use a Japanese camera even though he spent the war stateside on his
fat ass as a USAAF glider supply procurement officer. That meant
toward the end of his life he spent shitloads on Leica and Linhof
cameras despite the fact they were the enemy too. One learned not to
bring that up around the house at an early age.
I have, to the point, used Kikusui, Iwatsu, Meguro and Yokohama test
equipment extensively. Most of it was and is well made though not so
well made as the better HP and Tektronix stuff. The best electronic
test equipment overall is HP and Tektronix, US made, though there are
individual bits of German and British kit that do certain things
better. I would also recommend Japanese or German analog scopes over
vintage Tek not because they are better, they are not, but because Tek
no longer supports their analog scopes and they are built very largely
of unobtainable mechanical and semiconductoor parts.
You are spending a lot of time and energy on re-inventing the wheel
when you should just either buy a HP tube machine or buy another cheap
solid state one and build a buffer for it to zap proof it. This shows
technical competence but poor business skills. You are a smart guy
with a lot of energy and could make a lot of money and improve a lot
of other people's lives if you used good business judgment and paid
other people to do stuff on the principle of division of labor.
Winding your own transformers is a good example, that's women's work.
Low paid women's work at that, and I don't mean that as a pejorative.
The most skilled winders are women that probably gat $12 to $15 an
hour in 2009 US dollars in places like Southern California and
Massachusetts.
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com
"Phil Allison"
>
> The HP 200CD goes up to 600 kHz, which is way over what an audio
> generator is good for. Above that you want a proper RF generator with
> AM and FM and proper shielding.
>
> ** OK
>
> > I bet its distortion is way lower too.
>
> ** Nonsense.
>
> Typical RF oscillators typically have HIGH levels of harmonics in their
> outputs - deliberately.
>
Lab grade ones use heterodyning.....
** So fucking what ?
Fuck off - you ASININE pile of Septic TROLLING shit.
...... Phil
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com
> I don't hate the Japanese at all, I admire their industriousness,
> ingenuity and determination as well as their racial cohesion. I think
> FDR deliberately provoked them to attack Pearl Harbor and knew it was
> coming and said nothing. I think he should have been machine gunned
> down in his wheelchair. That said, we whipped their asses but good,
> totally subjugated them.
** Oh dear.
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
Reckon this raving looney is a member of the Klan too ??
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
I run my business on a shoestring budget because product demand for tube
gear is low. There ain't funds to buy expensive gear and when I have
bought some its always been second hand, and usually solid state based
and fragile when working around tubes.
I recently obtained a couple of hundred transformers of good quality
from a guy who was doing similar work to me but who wants to ease into
retirement. I've advertised them and nobody wants to buy any.
So when I retire in 10 years these all go to the dumper bin for
re-cycling.
The prices people are willing to pay for tube gear is extremely low and
it prohibits me training a team and getting up to speed with mass
production in a little factory without compromising my idea of what
makes a decent tube amp.
It wouldn't matter if I was Superman, you cannot make a huge sum of
money without high capital investment and a big team who all share the
work. Halcro of South Austrlalia seemed to do OK but I have never had
the opportunity to audit their accounts books, and just how successful
they have been is a moot point.
So when someong gives me a couple of Kikusui oscillators and just after
I blow the crap out of a bum Topward shit thing, then I am either going
to buy a new function gene or addapt the Kikusui and make a few mods to
extend its test signal bandwidth.
I chose the latter, and it didn't take too long to achieve.
Australia once had a considerable local tranny winding industry and you
could buy a range of PT, OPT and chokes wound in Oz across the counter
and in various grades. Demand in a country like Oz whose population is
like Carlifornia's isn't high. Not enough to support more than a husband
and wife team in a cottage.
Its normal for me work making amplifiers for far less than they pay the
women of Sth Carlifornia or Masschusetts. People say I ought to be
professional, and I say no, I cannot just add a zero on my prices to
make my gear professionally priced.
But I am a good tradesman.
I'm having the life I can have, with a lot to occupy my time
constructively without chasing pie in the sky and dreaming stupidly
about getting rich, and just how I'd be happy being rich I don't know. I
prefer the torture of riding bicycles up steep hills right here rather
than going to France and riding up their hills instead of ours. I have
no desire to be sitting in Paris cafes sipping coffee and wondering why
the fuck I spent all the money on travel to gork at people gorking back
at me wondering why I am over in their country. Many people don't like
my frugal attitude. But I see the reasons why I don't like the
activities of the rich so clearly. I see the sham of modern
materialistic existance. Its prevented me marrying many shielas because
they wanted their silly dreams financed. I spoke to Angelina Jollie and
Elle McPherson last week and offered them a job of being a wife as well
as winding my transformers for me and doing gardening work between slack
times and doing a nice 100km ride on a bicycle on sundays but they both
said all I offered was OK but that they couldn't handle being up the
ladder to clean the leaves from gutters and clipping the hedge.
Them's the brakes, eh....
Patrick Turner.
Arny Krueger
news:95646042-6b18-422d...@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com
> In fact, the obsolescent P-40 was capable of dealing with
> the Zero once the relative strengths and weaknesses were
> figured out.
Agreed. The Flying Tigers flew P-40s and had a decent kill ratio against the
Zero. It was all about pilot training and finding appropriate tactics.
Patrick Turner
Raving looney? Debatable. Polite about what he believes though. America
is a country that is very divided in its attitudes. The people of the
world all think differently and believe in different lines of ideas, and
there ain't nothing you can do to change any of them. So to discuss
oscilators, we have to learn that some things we may say will inflame
some minds and bring out ideas to oppose what seem to be our own about
things other than oscillators.
Never assume I agree with everyone every time if I speak to people. I
just don't have the time to say too much, let alone convince anyone to
consider an alternative view of world history.
Patrick Turner.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
I see VAC are asking US$9,000 for their preamp which is an obvious
cosmetic ripoff of a Kerr-McCosh of 1962.
The local high end saloon down the street sells about a quarter
million dollars of Audio Research gear a year. For years they sent all
repairs to a guy named Steve Siegel who ran a half assed car audio
repair shop but he told them to F themselves and now everything goes
back to Minneapolis even for a twenty cent resistor. And I'm in a
fairly backward city.
THere is money, just not around where you are at. You have to focus
on business where the business is and in high end audio it's Japan,
Singapore, Hong Kong, the West End of London, the US East and West
Coasts. What there is in Australia is probably around Sydney, I'd
guess.
eBay always has HP oscillators for under US $50 and I see them for
ten dollars at hamfests.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> <mebratziuj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
The P-40 is still a delightful warbird. It has the single speed
blower 1710 Allison and usually a Curtiss prop you can still get parts
for. I'd like to have one, although a Mustang would be more fun to
fly.
Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger"
> <mebrat...@yahoo.com>
>> In fact, the obsolescent P-40 was capable of dealing with
>> the Zero once the relative strengths and weaknesses were
>> figured out.
>
> Agreed. The Flying Tigers flew P-40s and had a decent kill ratio against
> the Zero. It was all about pilot training and finding appropriate tactics.
** Ever read AVG pilot and Medal of Honour winner Greg Boyington's book
covering the topic ??
What you posted is a very far from what the most famous of the Flying
Tigers had to say about combat with Zeros.
He was also quite scathing about the fact that that reports his group sent
to military authorities warning them about this new & exceptional
performance Japanese fighter were ignored.
Which as he said: " .... were filed without being read " .
..... Phil
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>> <mebrat...@yahoo.com
>>
>> > I don't hate the Japanese at all, I admire their industriousness,
>> > ingenuity and determination as well as their racial cohesion. I think
>> > FDR deliberately provoked them to attack Pearl Harbor and knew it was
>> > coming and said nothing. I think he should have been machine gunned
>> > down in his wheelchair. That said, we whipped their asses but good,
>> > totally subjugated them.
>>
>> ** Oh dear.
>>
>> Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
>>
>> Reckon this raving looney is a member of the Klan too ??
>>
>> ..... Phil
>
> Raving looney? Debatable. Polite about what he believes though.
** Polite ???????????????????????????????
The moron said to * machine gun * a US president in his wheel chair ??
The Turneroid Public Menace is at it again.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com>
The P-40 is still a delightful warbird.
** Totally off the point insane shit !!!!!!
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
I reckon this raving looney IS a member of the Klan too.
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> "Patrick Turner"
>
>
>
>
>
> > Phil Allison wrote:
>
>
> >> > I don't hate the Japanese at all, I admire their industriousness,
> >> > ingenuity and determination as well as their racial cohesion. I think
> >> > FDR deliberately provoked them to attack Pearl Harbor and knew it was
> >> > coming and said nothing. I think he should have been machine gunned
> >> > down in his wheelchair. That said, we whipped their asses but good,
> >> > totally subjugated them.
>
> >> ** Oh dear.
>
> >> Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
>
> >> Reckon this raving looney is a member of the Klan too ??
>
> >> ..... Phil
>
> > Raving looney? Debatable. Polite about what he believes though.
>
> ** Polite ???????????????????????????????
>
> The moron said to * machine gun * a US president in his wheel chair ??
>
He's been dead 65 years now. Get over it you fucking wanker, you oily
fuck. Quit jacking off to Asian granny porn and go back to work.
Phil Allison
** Oh dear.
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
This raving looney IS a member of the Klan too.
And he wants to murder presidents with a machine gun.
The FBI need to keep this rabid PSYCHO under 24 hour surveillance.
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> "Arny Krueger"
>
> > <mebratziuj...@yahoo.com>
Boyington was an angry drunk as he himself admitted. He finally grew
up at the age of sixty or so and said as much himself. The Zero was
indeed a well designed machine but by the end of the war it was
hopelessly outclassed by a number of Allied aircraft.
The only really excellent fighter from an all around standpoint the
Axis had was the FW-190. The Me-109 was successful in the air but due
to its ridiculously narrow undercarriage was not operable in any sort
of crosswind: it only worked when Germany had the old WW1 era square
grass aerodromes into which one could always take off into the wind.
The ground losses were terrific. The Zero with nil pilot protection
and little resistance to battle damage was not a feasible aircraft
feom a Western perspective.
The Allies had a surfeit of aircraft which were quite good once
things got rolling. The Brits built the lovely Spitfire and Mosquito
but they were manufacturing nightmares. They also built the very
respectable Hurricane and my favorite, the Typhoon and Tempest with
their wonderful sleeve valve engines. The US built aircraft that were
not only excellent but highly manufacturable and turned out aircraft
as though they were cars. We couldn't do it today and moreover no one
else ever could. The Russians, with whom we sadly sided against the
Germans, built crude though sometimes effective aircraft. There is an
example of a WWII Soviet V12 aircraft engine in a US museum I have
seen, it's unbelievably crude.
To me the sad part is that we could have turned out airplanes that
were even better if we had had a better system of engineering
implementation and also that so few of the old aircraft exist. The
most common WWII combat aircraft is probably the Mustang with a
slightly less than one percent survival rate. Many types are totally
extinct, including significant ones such as the P-61 Black Widow and
the B-26 Marauder, in terms of actually flying aircraft and not
embalmed taxidermied museum corpses.
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com>
** You have ignored EVERY SINGLE THING that I posted.
Cos you have NO case WHATEVER to post.
Cos you are a fucking useless, ignorant PILE of Septic Shit.
Fuck off - you CRIMINAL PSYCHO
...,. Phil
Patrick Turner
I must raise my hat to VAC and their pricing mechanisms. With such high
prices, someone might buy something from me.
>
> The local high end saloon down the street sells about a quarter
> million dollars of Audio Research gear a year. For years they sent all
> repairs to a guy named Steve Siegel who ran a half assed car audio
> repair shop but he told them to F themselves and now everything goes
> back to Minneapolis even for a twenty cent resistor. And I'm in a
> fairly backward city.
I reckon the repair activity back at the ARC factory must be struggling
to get through the workload of returns. I've seen the ARC and had to fix
'em myself, and the best way to fix a VT100 is to rip out the whole
internal guts and start all over again.
The box and the transformers are nice though.
Maybe when ARC join the crowd hustling the Chinese to make their costly
items for them that the quality will finally hit rock bottom.
>
> THere is money, just not around where you are at. You have to focus
> on business where the business is and in high end audio it's Japan,
> Singapore, Hong Kong, the West End of London, the US East and West
> Coasts. What there is in Australia is probably around Sydney, I'd
> guess.
Hi-end is mainly in Melbourne. But I get 500 hits a day at my web-site,
and only very few sales.
The people with money need to be able to spend on an expensive
brandnames to feel good. I do *NOT* offeranyone that expererience. What
I do offer is good tradesmanship, and only tiny % of audio listeners
realise what the heck I am on about.
I don't have the spare couple of million bucks to make myself known
widely and to bribe magazines for rave reviews.
>
> eBay always has HP oscillators for under US $50 and I see them for
> ten dollars at hamfests.
Not many HP anything here in Oz at hamfests, and I can do slightly
better than HP for an oscillator.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Passion of the moment should never be understood to be what he would
really do if he could.
Remember the way many people saw R.G.Menzies as being "pig iron Bob".
In the 1950s and 60s, many people hated hated Menzies because he was
right wing and sided with business always. He went right along with the
americans about the Vietnam War. But more loved than hated the man.
Leaders get both love and hate.
We sold the Japs a lotta iron ore and it returned to us with Japs
aboard. So it was lucky for Bob M that nobody shot him. Now doncha think
it woulda been grand if there'd been a CIA in 1933, and a group had gone
into Germany and machine gunned Hitler? (Oh, and Goering and Geobels and
the the rest of them.) They could have them travelled north a bit and
shot up Stalin and his cronies, then had a quick trip down to China on
the way home to the States to take out that young troublesome Mao, and
the world would have been a better place. So just who you machine gun
down and when is very important for the world.
But really bad arsoles keep springing up like mushrooms.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Ya can't get any real attention if you react to postings with impolite
language Phil.
No need to foam at the mouth about OT subjects.
I'm here for the tubes, and the craft in using them. I have a mission
plan. Now what do you have?
Anyway, I am still tinkering with the oscillator a bit more to extract
more simple fine performance as I spelt out last night. But nobody has
replied to what I said; they were all too busy calling each other names
and rabbiting on about inconsequential issues.
I'm back to my shed; too much noise here.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Below Flipper does not give any advice on how the world could be a
better place.....
flipper wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 15:09:58 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Dear Readers,
> >
> >I guess I should have known that some mention of Japanese expertise
> >during and after WW2 might be seen as the action of a traitor to the
> >American Way.
>
> Just your typical pontificating on things you know little to nothing
> about.
>
> > I should have expected to get an argument about who shot
> >who out of the skies in WW2, but I forgot there must be some old
> >ex-servicemen out there who would love a chance to say their bit about
> >the positive performances of allied war hardware and play down the
> >achievements of the Japanese.
>
> That the Japanese approach in making unarmored, fragile, aircraft for
> agility at the expense of the pilot constitutes a 'play down' is your
> assessment of the strategy. I simply pointed it out.
>
> > I can only thank the old guys for their
> >efforts to spare the free world from those who'd gladly have a world in
> >chains, or gas chambers. Hitler and Tojo needed some persuasion. And the
> >unemployed in the US finally got a job in 1939.
>
> I suppose another Word War is your strategy for dealing with the
> current economic downturn, eh?
>
> >The Japs were, IMHO both fools and fuctards to pick a fight with the USA
> >of all countries.
>
> Easy to see in hindsight but the Japanese just 35 years earlier had
> utterly decimated the Russian fleet, then considered a 'super power',
> and Hitler rejoiced at the Tripartite noting "Now we have a partner
> who has not been defeated in three thousand years!"
>
> >But after WW2 when i was born I saw the war as my father's war, and not
> >a war of my generation, and just to make the peace a lasting one since
> >1945 many offspring of men who served long years away from home then
> >went and married Japanese women. My cousin of about my age sure did, and
> >he and his japanese wife have produced two very fine young people. And
> >when he got fat and bone lazy and forgot how to woo her in his late
> >fifties she left him and met and married a dance instructor to begin a
> >new life with new vigour and vibrant intimacy. You can't hold a good
> >woman down. I only met her once, and boy, what a dame!
> >
> >So when your wife wants to go dancing at age 50, you better try to join
> >her, and get your act together or you may loose what you cherish.
> >
> >The mix of genes wasn't such bad way to finally resolve WW2 issues.
>
> And you really think Tojo would have given a tinker's dam?
>
> >So the philosophical issues about WW2 are dominant in my mind rather
> >than the technical issues about who had what.
>
> Then why did you pontificate on what you now say you don't care about?
>
> >Of course after WW2 the mighty energy of the Japanese people was
> >directed towards peaceful persuits
>
> Just too bad they didn't think of it in 1931, eh?
>
> > and these included making marvellous
> >electronics, cars, and cameras better than anyone else
>
> Well, after 20 years of the "making junk" reputation, much like,
> later, South Korea and then China today.
>
> > and OK the rulers
> >of Japan did make mistakes, but the people sure earned my forgiveness
> >even though not from everyone.
>
> And just what have YOU to 'forgive' them for?
>
> Easy self righteous pontification for you, who wasn't bombed back to
> the stone age for 15 years, like the Chinese, and didn't have to fight
> them, trek the Bataan death march, or watch as they shoved their own
> people over cliffs.
>
> I wasn't there and don't 'hold a grudge' either but neither do I go
> around shaking a finger at those who went through a hell I can only
> imagine.
>
> <snip>
>
> >Phil, do you have any objection of my combination of 2009 Australian
> >igenuity with WW2 type of Japanese simplicity?
> >
> >I knew old guys who hated the Japs until they died, but I never could
> >hate them.
>
> You weren't beaten, starved, murdered, and raped by them.
>
> >And for those old flyers wanting to argue over who shot who, perhaps
> >they should consider the past is over. Consider yourselves lucky the
> >Germans didn't get the A-bomb before the mainly ex-european scientists
> >invented one for you at Los Allamos.
>
> There's a reason why they were EX European, over here with all the
> other EXs from all over the World. We call them all "Americans."
>
> >Last week about 200 people died by being burned to death in bushfires in
> >Victoria. About 1,800 dwellings were burnt to a crisp.
>
> Did someone declare war on Victoria?
>
> > But this is
> >trifling compared to the civilian losses due to fire bombing Japanese
> >and German cities by the Allies.
>
> They started a WAR and were trying their damndest to do the same
> thing, or do you figure all those buzz bombs and V2 rockets were
> "oops, sorry about that. They got away from us?"
>
> > Then they nuked a couple of Jap cities.
> >Sometimes we have to fight a war, then hang our heads in shame.
>
> Speak for yourself but I tell you what, since winning is such a
> shameful thing to you, next time we'll let you surrender so you can
> hold your head high in a gas chamber or on the next Bataan death
> march.
>
> >Now we have a war we need to make on the financial crisis, so forget
> >WW2.
>
> Great recipe for repeating it.
>
> > And this month the profit statements from companies roll in and it
> >will all be bad news.
>
> Must make you delirious with joy, all those 'big bad capitalists'
> losing money.
>
> > What solution do the good ol boys of WW2 vintage
> >have? Perhaps the US will still have to solve the problem with the
> >printing press, so just watch your standard of living plummet when that
> >happens.
>
> That's the left wing loon solution. Unfortunately the left wing loons
> won the election and just finished passing the first trillion without
> letting anyone even read the bill.
>
> > Then we have the war on greenhouse to fight.
>
> You fight it. I'm not one for myths.
>
> > Reports now coming
> >in say the problem is far worse than we thought.
>
> Of course it is. Been no warming for 10 years and cooling for the last
> 7 so that make it even more dire, to get something done before people
> figure out what a freaking farce the whole thing is. Same reason
> there's 'no time' to read the bill.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >Patrick Turner.
> >
> >
Phil Allison
"flipper"
** Snip pile highly selective and very biased quoting re the Mitsubishi
Zero:
This author IS a Yank, but unlike others has done his research and
presents a much more balanced summary of the reasons the Japanese
justifiably considered the Zero to be a war winning aeroplane design.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/zero_A6M.htm
" It is hard for modern researchers to understand just how dominant the Zero
was in the early years of the Pacific War. No Allied plane could stand
against it. The obsolete Brewster Buffalo and the sleek looking but
comparatively low performance Bell P-39 fared poorly against the Zero. The
best of the early American Army fighters was probably the Curtis P-40, and
the early models of this fighter were distinctly inferior in most respects
to the Zero. Even the contemporary models of the famous British Spitfire and
Hurricane fighters, which had won the Battle of Britain, had major problems
with the Zero when they met in 1942.
At sea, the situation was hardly much better. The U.S. Navy's Grumman F4F
Wildcat was out classed by the Zero, although it probably provided the best
competition of any of the Allied fighter in the theater.
( skip numerous paragraphs you should read )
In his book Samurai Saburo Sakai tells the story of another incredible air
battle. In February 1945 the ace Kinsuke Muto, alone in his Zero, attacked
12 Corsair fighters. In the course of the wild dogfight that ensued, Muto
shot down 4 Corsairs before running out of ammunition and escaping. Such
battles, like the Zero fighter itself, are the stuff of legend. "
-------------------------------------------------------
This last para deserves a bit of filling out - because the air battle
referred to happened on February 26, **1945** over TOKYO !!
The 12 Corsairs ( 2450HP / 448 mph fighters) had flown in from US carriers
and were on a strafing run over the Japanese capitol, so flying at low
altitude when Muto waded into them in his lone, 1150HP/ 350 mph Zero.
The Corsairs could not simply escape by diving so were forced to engage in a
dogfight with the Zero. The first two were downed in seconds, before the
American pilots realised what was going on.
The second two Corsairs were downed during a wild air battle that ranged
over the Tokyo suburbs in broad daylight. Muto and his plane left totally
unscathed after expending all his ammunition.
Points to note:
All US Navy Corsair pilots had a minimum of 500 hours combat training before
going on missions against the Japanese, plus by 1945 were all very well
aware of and trained in the best tactics to use against a Zero.
Corsairs all had full armour plate protection for the pilot and self sealing
fuel tanks.
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
>
>
> > eBay always has HP oscillators for under US $50 and I see them for
> > ten dollars at hamfests.
>
> Not many HP anything here in Oz at hamfests, and I can do slightly
> better than HP for an oscillator.
>
You probably could beat HP, but how much time and energy are you
going to sink at it? A lot. Are you going in the tube ausio oscillatr
business? No. So where's the long term payback? Right, none.
How much would it cost to ship one in from the US (where there are
lots) or even Europe (where there are a fair number though much
fewer)? Haven't even looked into it, have you?
Not good business thinking.
I also note you haven't come across the "horse's mouth" documents on
the HP oscillator tech which are the things Jim Williams wrote and are
compiled in his book on analog design.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
>
> The P-39 is a good example of how 'management' can screw up a great
> airplane In flying prototype form it was faster than anything then in
> the air and was intended as a high altitude bomber pursuit ship where
> she would catch up to and lob 37mm cannon at the hapless bombers while
> still out of enemy return fire range.
>
> But the Army Air Corps doctrine of "the bomber always gets through"
> resulted in removing the turbocharger, castrating high altitude
> performance, and added armoring to the tune of a 30% (near a ton)
> weight increase (a fate also suffered by the Brewster). That doomed
> the P-39 as an air superiority fighter yet they still managed to hold
> their own with a 1-1 kill ratio against even the Zero, even in the
> hands of inexperienced US pilots,
>
> However, for the Soviets it was an unqualified success. In the low-
> and medium-altitude regime favored by their Air Force, the P-39 was
> more than a match for the Bf 109 and the Fw 190 and an incredible 179
> Soviet aces scored their victories in them.
>
> So much for the 5 minute arm chair aviator 'junk experts'.
>
The Allison V1710 never had the sophisticated supercharger designed
for the RR Merlin and Griffon because it was intended to be used with
General Electric's turbochargers, and the RR engines never were
turbocharged because 1) the RAF, not without justification, figured
the turbocharger technology was better used to make turbojet engines
(which are in broad essence a turbocharger with a burner can rather
than a piston engine between the compressor and turbine wheels) and 2)
the RAF fancied recovering the thrust from the stack gases as
propulsive force instead of turning the turbo.
After the war the Mustang design went back in limited production as
the P-82 Twin Mustang, and though there were a large supply of Merlins
in the can left over, the USAF wanted new Packard engines. However
Rolls Royce had licensed the Merlin to Packard, who drastically
improved it and cut production time to half or less, and the UK
Government told RR they were to refuse permission to Packard to build
more, in an attempt to get the USAF to buy the later mark of Merlin
direct. So the USAF had Allison build the 1710 with a two speed two
stage supercharger and the result was far superior to the Merlin,
while lighter and not requiring the counterrotating propeller of the
Griffon. RR fucked themselves out of licensing the Nene and Avon as a
result of this petty maneuver, costing them and the UK government a
lot of pounds sterling.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
>
> Points to note:
>
> All US Navy Corsair pilots had a minimum of 500 hours combat training before
> going on missions against the Japanese, plus by 1945 were all very well
> aware of and trained in the best tactics to use against a Zero.
>
> Corsairs all had full armour plate protection for the pilot and self sealing
> fuel tanks.
>
> ..... Phil
I have known several USN/USMC WWII pilots and as I remember not one
had 500 TT when they entered squadron service. In Korea lots of them
did but you had guys like Armstrong flying Panthers and I'm pretty
sure he didn't have that kind of total time let alone dedicated
"combat training". During WWII guys were seeing combat in the same
calendar year they entered Preflight., if they started in February or
occasionally March!
Even today guys in military aviation do not have a lot of time unless
they are in airlift or helo squadrons. A graduate of USAF UPT if he
goes into fighters won't have enough time to be allowed to rent a
Beech Bonanza until more than halfway through his initial service
commitment!
Phil Allison
** Oh dear.
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
This raving looney maniac IS a member of the Klan too.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
** Oh dear.
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
This raving FUCKWIT looney IS a member of the Klan too.
And a drug user.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
** Oh dear.
Full on, red neck fucktards are alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
This raving FUCKING looney IS a member of the Klan too.
Wonder how many poor niggers he has burned ??
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
mebrat...@yahoo.com wrote:
A lotta WW2 fighter plane stuff that's irrelevant to the construction
and improvement of old Kikusui oscillators.
So, because I am *NOT* a gun toting rooting shooting son of a bitch fond
of WW2 aircraft, I delete it all...
One thing to watch when building tuning gang controlled oscillators is
hum.
On the low F range from 20Hz to 200Hz the resistances in the RC networks
are 22Meg ohms used with the variable C.
When the oscillator chassis is out of the case, the high impedance
circuit picks up hum so that you will see considerable amplitude
modulation of the signal and it may lead you to think the thermistor is
varying its resistance or the circuit is motorboating.
But its just hum pick up and when the chassis is in the case the
oscillator becomes free of LF AM and very stable. At first I was
mystified at its presence but found that the AM had null points at
200Hz, 100Hz, 50Hz, and 25Hz, all of which are harmonically related to
50hz mains we have. This was useful though because it confirmed my
calibrations were accurate.
The final results for square wave production give good enough square
waves for audio amp testing.
I am using a 6BX6 which is being over driven into deep clipping by the
sine waves from the wien bridge oscillator. A voltage clamp using a
reference voltage in an electrlytic cap and then zener diodes plus
signal diodes are used to to clip off signals in excess of +/-12V peak
from the +/-35peak volts at the anode. When I had a close look at the
5kHz square wave using a low capacitance probe I found the rise time of
the signal was as fast as that of a 130kHz sine wave. This could be
faster if the square wave production had the same rise time for all F
ranges. But it is unecessary because when one uses a 5kHz square wave to
examine an amplifier's transient performance and stability when loaded
with say 0.22uF, the ringing frequency usually will be much lower than
130kHz.
If the Sq wave F is raised to say 10kHz, the highest F within the wave
becomes around 250kHz.
If the oscillator is set to 240kHz which is the highest sine wave F
possible in my unit, the fastest F within the square wave is about
1.2MHz.
The only bother in using the unit a lot is that perhaps the bead
thermistor in the lamp bulb might just fail open and I don't like my
chances of getting another. I did try a lamp bulbs in a normal NFB
circuit but the amplitude bounced around terribly and I concluded a
thermistors far longer thermal time constant means that you get almost
no bounce if the thermistor is about right for the application.
PS components sell one, part no 256-051.
It has 220k resistance at 25C and I estimate 4k at 37C, and it would be
about right to replace the Kikusui thermistor.
A Panasonic ERTD2FHL 154S should also work.
Thermistors with a high ohm resistance at room temp are required for the
tube circuit to ensure the loading effect of the NFB network from the
pentode output does not load down the pentodes and reduce the gain too
much. 6AQ5 worked a lot better than 6AR5 which has less gm.
The amplitude of the oscillator can be preset usefully by altering the
cathode resistor of the 6AV6 input tube. ( A 6AU6 may work better than
the 6AV6 because twice the voltage gain is possible and to a higher F,
thus reducing THD.) Rk with 6AV6 can be between 1k and 2k2 which alter
output voltage from 9V to 12vrms approx. I wanted peak square wave
voltage to equal sine wave peak voltage and the lower the square wave
amplitude the better the square wave, so one has to play around setting
the amplitude of the sine wave.
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"flipper"
>>
>>** Snip pile highly selective and very biased quoting re the Mitsubishi
>>Zero:
>
> That's bloody hilarious coming from someone who's 'analysis' consists
> of nothing more than "junk"
** You are a stupid , pompous cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
> and Saburo Sakai knows considerably more
> about the Zero than you.
** Ridiculous - cos I quote him extensively.
>>This author IS a Yank, but unlike others has done his research and
>>presents a much more balanced summary of the reasons the Japanese
>>justifiably considered the Zero to be a war winning aeroplane design.
>
> Too bad that "war winning aeroplane design" lost the war.
** Ridiculous crapology.
You are a stupid , pompous cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
>>http://www.chuckhawks.com/zero_A6M.htm
>>
>>" It is hard for modern researchers to understand just how dominant the
>>Zero
>>was in the early years of the Pacific War. No Allied plane could stand
>>against it. The obsolete Brewster Buffalo and the sleek looking but
>>comparatively low performance Bell P-39 fared poorly against the Zero. The
>>best of the early American Army fighters was probably the Curtis P-40, and
>>the early models of this fighter were distinctly inferior in most respects
>>to the Zero. Even the contemporary models of the famous British Spitfire
>>and
>>Hurricane fighters, which had won the Battle of Britain, had major
>>problems
>>with the Zero when they met in 1942.
>>
>>At sea, the situation was hardly much better. The U.S. Navy's Grumman F4F
>>Wildcat was out classed by the Zero, although it probably provided the
>>best
>>competition of any of the Allied fighter in the theater.
>>
>>( skip numerous paragraphs you should read )
>
> No wonder you skipped them
** I did not skip them - you stupid prick.
I posted the link and told folk to read the lot.
You are a stupid , pompous cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
> Chuck leaves out the Zero's control problem above 275 mph
** Cos it is fundamentally irrelevant to how the Zero was able to out-turn
and take aim against all its opponents.
> "The Allied fighters used their superior
> speed and dive rate to "hit and run," a tactic that negated the Zero's
> superior climb and turning ability. "
** The dive, hit and run tactic was only usable in limited circumstances (
there must be an altitude advantage, complete surprise over the Zero
tc) - plus was the ONLY tactic that was safe for them to use.
IOW - the Zero was a very dangerous adversary no Allied pilot could engage
with on equal terms.
So IT PROVES MY POINT BEYOND ALL DOUBT !!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a stupid , pompous cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
> Now, if you think you're 'winning the war' losing aircraft at 6.9 to 1
> then that's your problem,
** That misleading figure is from much later in the Pacific war - when the
USA produced new types of aircraft, NOT the ones I originally mentioned and
also had them in great abundance, out numbering the Zeros by large ratios.
> I congratulate the pilot on his skill but do you really want to claim
> the Zero was superior with a 12:1 loss ratio against the Corsair?
** The example speaks for itself.
1 Zero up against 12 US Navy Corsairs, at the very end of the Pacific war.
1 Zero downs 4 Corsairs.
-------------------------------------
You are a stupid, pompous cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
Get fucked.
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> mebratziuj...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> A lotta WW2 fighter plane stuff that's irrelevant to the construction
> and improvement of old Kikusui oscillators.
>
No natter what you do your Kikusui oscillator will never have any
market value, unlike a WWII fighter. It's a time and energy sinkhole.
I worked in a factory once where we had a piece of shop designed
test gear designed to calibrate DME equipment, that's Distance
Measuring Equipment equipment to be redundant. It was tube based and
used an odd Amperex tube with a very strange base, one large pin for
its two joined anodes and what looked like an offset 9 pin mini or
magnoval socket for all the rest. It was very difficult to keep
calibrated and one day a tech nearly electrocuted himself trying to
get the dial drive to track properly. It was built in an old Bud
cabinet built for DIY hams (then a redundant statement too) to build
homebrew stuff in to resemble factory built Hallicrafters or
Hammarlund gear. Anyway, after the tech was carted to hospital, I was
pulled aside by the floor manager to help him "put the unit aside
untouched in case an investigation was needed". We set the box on a
cart and he led us to the stairwell and put the cart against the rail
and said, "Go over there"-the open door we had come through-and get
that ESD jacket", the blue coats we wore in the lab. No sooner had I
stepped out of immediate sight then I heard a sliding sound followed
by a BLAMM! a few seconds later. He'd pushed the unit off the side of
the bannister and two stories down where it smashed into several
pieces. I stood and looked shocked for a minute and then realized what
he'd done. He'd destroyed the son of a bitch so upper mgmt. would be
forced to junk it and buy what was really needed, a modern pulse
generator and an Amplifier Research RF amplifier. I couldn't be blamed
for the "accident" since he had sent me away and he knew he wasn't
going to be fired over the 'accident'. Mgmt did bitch and moan but
they ante'd up for the correct equipment, which paid for itself in a
few months.
You should scrap that piece of shit before it takes up any more time
and energy and buy an HP from the US on ebay. You know it and I know
it.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:51:18 +1100, "Phil Allison"
>
> <philalli...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> >"flipper"
>
> >** Snip pile highly selective and very biased quoting re the Mitsubishi
> >Zero:
>
> about the Zero than you.
The real experts were the guys who flew both sides' airplanes
firsthand and were able to assess them with some detatchment. That
means generally people on the winning side because the losers don't
get to fly the winner's aircraft, but rather the other way around,
although the Germans were able to piece together a surprising array of
Allied aircraft during the war. Eric Brown of the RAF was likely the
single best source because he was already a qualified test pilot and
spoke German fluently when the opportunity arrived: further he wrote
extensively and well of his experiences. Bob Hoover, perhaps the
greatest military aircraft demonstration pilot of history, also flew
several enemy types but did not write of it as extensively or as
early: it was only in the late 1980s or early 1990s (when he was in
his 70s but still very much a working airshow pilot) that he wrote
very much, at least for public consumption (although by then his WWII
and immediate postwar reports were long since declassified and
available for the serious student.)
But none of that is relevant to Phil because he's an autistic and
probably sociopathic person who hates "seppos". We don't like him
either, so as you say, fair dinkum.
Phil Allison
<mebrat...@yahoo.com>
** Someone need to track this criminal trolling fuckwit down.
Cos he is one massive oxygen thief.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
"flipper" <fli...@fish.net>wrote
** You are an INSANE, bullshitting, criminal cunthead - flipper.
Hope that monster brain tumour you have kills you real soon.
..... Phil
mebrat...@yahoo.com
intended of it and it's a shame that more weren't saved from scrappage
for their historical value. But it would not have been acceptable to
any Western air force, and it had had intrinsic problems like a high
susceptibility to corrosion and engines with poor TBO. The ruggedness
of a Grumman was a major factor in empowering their pilots to fight as
they did. And the limiting factor for all sides was the supply of
excellent combat pilots, not airplanes. You could manufacture ten
thousand Zeros or Mustangs or Me-109s, but a Sakai, a Galland, a Dick
Bong, they were in very short supply.
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turneroid"
> >
> > mebrat...@yahoo.com CRIMINAL SCUMBAG wrote:
> >
> > A lotta WW2 fighter plane stuff that's irrelevant to the construction
> > and improvement of old Kikusui oscillators.
>
> ** But YOU started it Pat - with your dopey pro-Jap comments.
Yes, and in relation to an old simple oscillator from about 1955.
Then all the guys rolled in about guns, aircraft and everything else
except anything intelligent about oscillators.
When I tire of bullshit, I say so. I do NOT have to take any notice of
how ppl expand the thread.
The rednecks are welcome to have their say.
Obama got more votes.
Maybe he's really a redneck too, and when he gets America more involved
in Afghanistan, and the dead are flown homeward, maybe the american
people will fall out of love with him too.
>
> Red Neck Septic Tank ASSHOLES from Kansas cannot abide that for one
> second.
>
> Nor having a black guy for president - shit, they all wanna " machine gun"
> him too.
>
> Nor women in politics - especially barking mad bitches like Hillary.
>
> Nor any kind of do-gooding, limp wristed liberal socialists.
>
> Nor any tree hugging Greenies, towel headed Moosies, Jesus murdering Jews,
> fagotty damn intellectuals nor any fuckin anti-free enterprise BLOODY
> UNIONISTS !!!
>
> So what do they really want ??
>
> World domination, of course.
>
> Drop the Big One on any and all " enemies " of the USA.
>
> Worked fine on the stinking Japs in '45 - didn't it ??
>
> Taught them a lesson they won't fuckin forget.
>
> Here is the famous RED NECK's THEME SONG :
>
> No one likes us-I don't know why
> We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
> But all around, even our old friends put us down
> Let's drop the big one and see what happens
>
> We give them money-but are they grateful?
> No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
> They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
> We'll drop the big one and pulverize them
>
> Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
> Africa is far too hot
> And Canada's too cold
> And South America stole our name
> Let's drop the big one
> There'll be no one left to blame us
>
> We'll save Australia
> Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
> We'll build an All American amusement park there
> They got surfin', too
>
> Boom goes London and boom Paree
> More room for you and more room for me
> And every city the whole world round
> Will just be another American town
> Oh, how peaceful it will be
> We'll set everybody free
> You'll wear a Japanese kimono
> And there'll be Italian shoes for me
>
> They all hate us anyhow
> So let's drop the big one now
> Let's drop the big one now
>
> ------------------------
>
> ..... Phil
'Tis is a twinkle in thine eye,
So I read the poem and I won't ask why,
And because the writer is a fiesty man,
I'll sign off here and say bye bye....
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
flipper wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:11:40 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >mebrat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >A lotta WW2 fighter plane stuff that's irrelevant to the construction
> >and improvement of old Kikusui oscillators.
> >
> >So, because I am *NOT* a gun toting rooting shooting son of a bitch fond
> >of WW2 aircraft, I delete it all...
>
> YOU are the one who STARTED it.
Sure, I began a thread about oscillators. Every one started playing
football but after 5 minutes the game changed into anything but
football. Hardly antone had time or inclination to think about tubes
oscillators.
Them's the breaks.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
flipper wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:30:58 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Below Flipper does not give any advice on how the world could be a
> >better place.....
>
> Irrelevant as the previous nonsense won't be improved whether I offer
> any or not.
>
> But how's this? We round up all the "make the world a better place"
> fanatics and ship them off someplace where their totalitarian 'ideals'
> won't ruin things for rational folk.
>
> Got any ideas? Like maybe Australia?
>
> I'd really prefer another planet, especially since their minds are
> already on one anyway, but that's not practical just yet.
America has a large number of thoughtful and constructive people as does
Australia. Maybe you have not met many of them because when they see you
coming, they might cross the street.
You have not yet tendered any world improvement measures.
Come to Oz mate, settle down a bit, and learn slowly why we didn't have
to have a civil war to settle matter we disagree about.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
mebrat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On Feb 17, 7:11 am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> > mebratziuj...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > A lotta WW2 fighter plane stuff that's irrelevant to the construction
> > and improvement of old Kikusui oscillators.
> >
>
> No natter what you do your Kikusui oscillator will never have any
> market value, unlike a WWII fighter. It's a time and energy sinkhole.
If someone gave me a Spitfire, I's be inclined to hold a press
conferance where the press can witness my protest against war and its
waste and its terible effect on markets while I use a bulldozer to
flatten the Spitty like a pancake.
When I die, ppl will find lotsa junk at my place, and they are welcome
to it.
Markets, and market value don't mean very much to, and if they did I
wouldn't be richer or happier.
Doncha think war is a bit of a sinkhole? Like all today's injustice and
stupidity? Financial crisis?
There are always 50 other bigger wasteful sinkholes than mucking around
with a few tubes in a box.
My interest in tubes leads to music, not war.
I don't have employees who might sabotage the gear to force me to buy
them new gear.
I don't have employees except a sub-contractor who repairs solid state
gear for me.
And I don't have funds to the latest gee whiz test gear which probably
will fail expensively if I accidently touch and input lead on +500V of
an anode circuit.
>
> You should scrap that piece of shit before it takes up any more time
> and energy and buy an HP from the US on ebay. You know it and I know
> it.
I have a bunch of stuff made by HP and others which was given to me
free.
But nearly all of it needs a fix. I have a bit of non HP junk such as
the Kikusui and I am happy to spend **some** or my time, not all of it,
to getting better performance which will be easy to service in future,
and serve my needs adequately.
Building audio amps isn't rocket science.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
flipper wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:44:25 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >flipper wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:30:58 GMT, Patrick Turner
> >> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Below Flipper does not give any advice on how the world could be a
> >> >better place.....
> >>
> >> Irrelevant as the previous nonsense won't be improved whether I offer
> >> any or not.
> >>
> >> But how's this? We round up all the "make the world a better place"
> >> fanatics and ship them off someplace where their totalitarian 'ideals'
> >> won't ruin things for rational folk.
> >>
> >> Got any ideas? Like maybe Australia?
> >>
> >> I'd really prefer another planet, especially since their minds are
> >> already on one anyway, but that's not practical just yet.
> >
> >America has a large number of thoughtful and constructive people as does
> >Australia.
>
> Yes, we do.
>
> > Maybe you have not met many of them because when they see you
> >coming, they might cross the street.
>
> I've met scads of them. Met some of the others too.
>
> >You have not yet tendered any world improvement measures.
>
> Sure I did. Stop trying to dictate to people.
>
> >Come to Oz mate,
>
> Been there.
>
> > settle down a bit, and learn slowly why we didn't have
> >to have a civil war to settle matter we disagree about.
>
> Like how ya'll just 'talked it out' with the Japanese?
Defending one's country can be worthwhile. So Oz fought well. We also
fought in wars that started in europe and asia where Oz was only
indirectly rather than directly threatened. The silly Japs did directly
threaten Oz and they bombed the shit out of Darwin just so we'd get the
message, so thousands of Oz ppl had no qualms about joining the armed
forces. Japan bit off more than they could chew. Many Oz ppl volunteered
to go off in those foreign conflicts because the people of Oz personally
felt obliged to help Britain and America. I have no problem with people
volunteering because in a democratic others may do what I would not,
unless I though I had to. In my lifetime of being a possible soldier
between ages 18 and 40 there was only the Vietnam fiasco to which I may
have been sent as a conscript. I would never have volunteered to take
part in such tomfoolery and downright bastardry towards a nation that
had not invaded the US or Oz.
Nations like friends will have a falling out at times, and some will
invade others. Shit happens, right.
If you look at the longer term, Oz has spent much more time trading with
Japan rather than fighting her. The rulers of Japan did not realise
there was more to be gained by trade rather than war. This became
Japan's path after WW2. It appears China has no desire to invade Oz
soon. China is trying to buy large shares in multinationals digging for
minerals in Oz which are so handy when you make things to export to
foreigners to make a buck. So they figure if they owned the mines they'd
get the minerlas dirt cheap instead of paying through the nose to
western nation multinationals. Just business. No pools of blood and
blown up people.
Obama would do well to have deep and meaningful discussions with the
Taliban, Iran, Hamas, and anyone else who grieves America. This does not
mean he has to roll over and give in to anyone, but jaw-jaw leaves less
carnage of innocent lives than does war-war.
Some things don't look easy to resolve. But they did resolve the
intractable bothers with Northern Ireland.
So it is with the Palestinians. No matter how many times Israel bombs
and kills 100 Paloes when one of its own are killed, and no matter how
many wars its won against Arab nations in the past, the Palestinians
still won't give their land rights away. Peace will come there when
Israel gives back land it stole so that the refugees can come back home.
Its that simple. There should be discussions about it.
People in the ME will fight for centuries to get back what they think is
theirs.
I can't help but mention Iraq. But Iraq didn't threaten the US now did
it? So what right did the US have in invading it and causing hundreds of
thousands of casulaties and forcing millions to pack up and leave the
country?
Talking wasn't going to work very well with Saddam, but you have to keep
at it when dealing with a rotter who's up against the wall, and after
1991 they had Saddam "contained" and he did NOT have any weapons of mass
destruction; the yanks were the ones with all those. Meanwhile the death
toll from US traffic accidents and gun shootings is far higher than that
caused by terrorists. So when much of the world views the the US with
telescopes, they shudder over what they see with many inconsistencies
and contradictions; the US looks like a crazy place they **don't** want
to emulate.
So I won't be volunteering to go to fight for the US cause in
Afghanistan. Meanwhile the Taliban are strengthening in Pakistan and the
shit fight will extend further.
And when they fight a war these days they declare is a war against
"terrorism", ie, anyone who thinks differently to the US. They don't
make a formal declaration of war and demand the nominated enemy swear
unconditional surrender. Just what is the mission plan of the US? nobody
really knows but seems to me its all about oil and how to get it cheap.
At least the Japs knew what to say when they finally saw the light of
two atomic bombs. "Ah so, we surrender completely". People move on after
the right words are spoken for the occasion.
Oz has a special forces contingent in Ghan and lord only knows how many
inocent ppl are dying in pools of blood from their secret activities to
thwart the Taliban. The Russians lost 15,000 men in Ghan. The US then
supported the Taliban who finally prevailed. Bastardry. Then the Taliban
got a bit naughty and became a menace what with 911 and Osama BL, ( who
still roams free ), and then the US has been taking revenge ever since
and trying to have a "new world order" that favours the US and few
others.
Not all the folks who Rome conquered liked being attached to Rome and
having to pay taxes to Rome. Some folks enjoyed being part of Rome, and
lived on to develop nations that out did Rome. Things got complicated.
But not many in the ME want to see the US have a control that they see
is unfair.
Iran is determined to ensure what happened in Iraq cannot happen to
itself hence their need to build obscene atomic weapons and the means of
delivery with accuracy. Why is it that the US insists it has the right
to be a super power and have weapons and armies and object to Iran who
merely wants to defend itself? With A-bombs and good rockets Iran will
at least deter the US from attacking it, just like the US couldn't
attack Russia or China or India and expect to get away with it like they
are doing with Iraq and Afghanistan.
I see rather a big need of talk around the world. I suggest the
thoughtful people in the US won't be choosing you to negotiate with
those the US hates, but who the US should be talking to.
I could mention Cuba. Isn't it time to bury the hatchet?
Patrick Turner.
>
> >
> >Patrick Turner.
keithr
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:44:25 GMT, Patrick Turner
>> Come to Oz mate,
>
> Been there.
>
>> settle down a bit, and learn slowly why we didn't have
>> to have a civil war to settle matter we disagree about.
>
> Like how ya'll just 'talked it out' with the Japanese?
Had the US not sent Admiral Perry over to force the Japanese to open up
to the rest of the world, we may not have had to go to war with them,
and the US would still have a viable electronics and auto industry.
Keith
mebrat...@yahoo.com
Japan didn't kill the US electronics industry, the US did. Corporate
America was spoiled by military and space program profit margins and
management chose to walk away from consumer with its high volume low
profit, relatively speaking, paradigm. You made more profit building a
sub-subcontracted part like the Apollo computer DSKY key button
assembly in 25 unit quantity than the latest Zenith color console TV
in 25,000 unit quantity so US corporations were quite content to leave
the TV business to the Japanese.
Corporate management self-interest over the next quarter is why US
manufacturers abandoned consumer electronics and cameras and general
aviation. Long term it was consumer that gave them the base to do the
other stuff but they were not interested long term. The Japanese were
interested long term and the Chinese the very long term.
mebrat...@yahoo.com
>
> So it is with the Palestinians. No matter how many times Israel bombs
> and kills 100 Paloes when one of its own are killed, and no matter how
> many wars its won against Arab nations in the past, the Palestinians
> still won't give their land rights away. Peace will come there when
> Israel gives back land it stole so that the refugees can come back home.
> Its that simple. There should be discussions about it.
Surely you jest. One side in this conflict also controls the mass
media of news and entertainment in the United States and largely in
the rest of the Western world too, and one does not. That's not the
only consideration but that is the decisive one.
>
> People in the ME will fight for centuries to get back what they think is
> theirs.
>
Just as we did take the United States from "the Indians" and you took
Australia from "the abbos" the Middle Easterners took it from some one
else. Big bugs have little bugs which sit on their back and bite'em/
little ones still smaller ones, and so on, ad infinitum! No other Arab/
Muslim nation wants the Pals either because they are ill tempered and
violent even by Arab standards as a group. And there is to be sure a
practical advantage in ensuring military hegemony in the Middle East
of having Israel there, although Israel is a shitty excuse for an ally
if one is honest about it as the surviving crewmen of the USS Liberty
will tell you.
> I can't help but mention Iraq. But Iraq didn't threaten the US now did
> it? So what right did the US have in invading it and causing hundreds of
> thousands of casulaties and forcing millions to pack up and leave the
> country?
The white nationalist view is that Saddam was nationizing Iraq and
the Israelis wanted Iraq to stay a squabbling pesthole so they could
never threaten Israel. That isn't the whole story but that has to be
one element. Saddam HAD made the mistake of angering the Bush Family
personally and it isn't smart to fuck with organized crime
unnecessarily, is another element. Several things came together at the
right, or wrong, time and that's how wars start.
>
> Talking wasn't going to work very well with Saddam, but you have to keep
> at it when dealing with a rotter who's up against the wall, and after
> 1991 they had Saddam "contained" and he did NOT have any weapons of mass
> destruction; the yanks were the ones with all those. Meanwhile the death
> toll from US traffic accidents and gun shootings is far higher than that
> caused by terrorists. So when much of the world views the the US with
> telescopes, they shudder over what they see with many inconsistencies
> and contradictions; the US looks like a crazy place they **don't** want
> to emulate.
We were a sane nation once. We had very low crime even though anyone
could walk into a store and buy any rifle, pistol or revolver they
wanted. (Actually because of it, partly, but that's another story.) We
had low taxes and cheap land and good paying jobs. Men worked, women
raised the kids, life was good. Then people who thought they knew
better deliberately changed all the rules, at about the time the
population was getting to use up a lot of the land. Affirmative action
and militant feminism and making it impossible to lock up crazies and
massive non-European immigration took the world of 1964 America and
turned it into the zoo we have now.
>
> So I won't be volunteering to go to fight for the US cause in
> Afghanistan. Meanwhile the Taliban are strengthening in Pakistan and the
> shit fight will extend further.
>
> And when they fight a war these days they declare is a war against
> "terrorism", ie, anyone who thinks differently to the US. They don't
> make a formal declaration of war and demand the nominated enemy swear
> unconditional surrender. Just what is the mission plan of the US? nobody
> really knows but seems to me its all about oil and how to get it cheap.
> At least the Japs knew what to say when they finally saw the light of
> two atomic bombs. "Ah so, we surrender completely". People move on after
> the right words are spoken for the occasion.
Oil and what's good for Israel as determined by Likud. Oil companies
want profit and can buy politicians, like Dick Cheney. The
international people have the mass media, a small minority population
which does nevertheless contribute almost half the total campaign
contributions made to all US candidates, and further have acquired
power over a substantial segment of the Jesus-junkies who fancy
themselves "Christian Zionists" (sic) who have enormous grass roots
influence. Preachers who preach pre-Darby normal Christianity (not
that I'm a big fan of that either, but it's way healthier than the
current kind) don't get radio or TV shows, those that kiss israel's
ass get that and free corporate jets and mansions and live like
kings.
>
> Oz has a special forces contingent in Ghan and lord only knows how many
> inocent ppl are dying in pools of blood from their secret activities to
> thwart the Taliban. The Russians lost 15,000 men in Ghan. The US then
> supported the Taliban who finally prevailed. Bastardry. Then the Taliban
> got a bit naughty and became a menace what with 911 and Osama BL, ( who
> still roams free ), and then the US has been taking revenge ever since
> and trying to have a "new world order" that favours the US and few
> others.
>
> Not all the folks who Rome conquered liked being attached to Rome and
> having to pay taxes to Rome. Some folks enjoyed being part of Rome, and
> lived on to develop nations that out did Rome. Things got complicated.
> But not many in the ME want to see the US have a control that they see
> is unfair.
>
> Iran is determined to ensure what happened in Iraq cannot happen to
> itself hence their need to build obscene atomic weapons and the means of
> delivery with accuracy. Why is it that the US insists it has the right
> to be a super power and have weapons and armies and object to Iran who
> merely wants to defend itself? With A-bombs and good rockets Iran will
> at least deter the US from attacking it, just like the US couldn't
> attack Russia or China or India and expect to get away with it like they
> are doing with Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> I see rather a big need of talk around the world. I suggest the
> thoughtful people in the US won't be choosing you to negotiate with
> those the US hates, but who the US should be talking to.
No, what there is need for is for is for people to run their own
countries and let others do likewise. I believe the US should not
interfere in other nations' business for the most part and not
tolerate others interfering in ours, a policy called "isolationism" by
its critics and "common sense" by me. Mine is a minority view here.
>
> I could mention Cuba. Isn't it time to bury the hatchet?
When the Castros finally die that will probably happen. Until then
both sides are too stubborn. You have to realize the Cubans are as
willfully intransigent as we are, plus, the better class of Cubans are
mostly all in Miami now. Reunification now would be very messy,
waiting another ten years when anyone who can remember things pre-1959
will be dead would make things easier for both sides.
Patrick Turner
> Japan didn't kill the US electronics industry, the US did. Corporate
> America was spoiled by military and space program profit margins and
> management chose to walk away from consumer with its high volume low
> profit, relatively speaking, paradigm. You made more profit building a
> sub-subcontracted part like the Apollo computer DSKY key button
> assembly in 25 unit quantity than the latest Zenith color console TV
> in 25,000 unit quantity so US corporations were quite content to leave
> the TV business to the Japanese.
>
> Corporate management self-interest over the next quarter is why US
> manufacturers abandoned consumer electronics and cameras and general
> aviation. Long term it was consumer that gave them the base to do the
> other stuff but they were not interested long term. The Japanese were
> interested long term and the Chinese the very long term.
Wages in the US have been MUCH higher than in asia. Same goes for
Australian wages.
Building TV sets and cameras and hi-fi radio sets for the masses is dumb
donkey work and can be done by relatively unskilled labour, so
businesses in the US or Oz began employing the Japs, then Taiwanese, and
later the Chinese to do all their manufacturing. When the first brave US
companies had their dirty work done in asia ( or Mexico ) nothing much
happened to the prices of items in shops, but over time more companies
went overseas for their labour and real competion began and then prices
fell and anyone not able to employ cheap asian labour, ie, exploit
asians as willing slaves, fell behind and could not make a profit.
Nowdays hardly anything I might buy is made in Oz in Oz shops. One might
buy a an "Australian brand" RM Williams pair of boots or a shirt, but
its all been churned out in China and the quality is often below other
less famous brands. So called cotton shirts are never pure cotton, and
finding real quality is like looking for the needle in the hay stack. I
very much doubt my present asian made swimming pool pump will give the
17 years of service the previous made in Oz brand gave me. But so what,
it was 1/3 the price. Tube audio gear coming from China looks very
pretty but its inner quality under close examinations is mainly garbage,
and very badly conceived from an experienced designer's point of view
and even though endorsed by western magazines with favourable reviews.
All the nice looking asian product is made with a labour price content
so low that its the very smallest part of the price you'll see in the
shops.
It was consumer supply and demand in America and the opening of doors in
asia to cheap labour that killed western nation manufacturing and all
the western nation jobs in western factories. The changes were approved
by politicians who found more votes in people wanting cheaper shopping
bills than from people naively wanting to protect their uncle Joe's job
in some factory where he slaved away to make your favourite tube amp.
Such is the indirect nature of democratic rationalisation of world
labour resources; ie, westerners don't give a shit about their uncle Joe
or auntie Jane making nice amps or shows or shirts if they know there is
a bunch of asian slaves willing and ready to do it for 1/20 of the wage.
Voters do not have any power to enforce employers to pay workers in
foreign nations the same wages as their uncle Joe or auntie Jane have
had. If there was some socially just enforcements it souldn';t matter
where you set up a factory because the labour employed would all be paid
the same. So basically, the consumer is a greedy braon just like the
greed driven western nation capitalist entrepreneur.
I have nothing much against capitalism as long as social equality and
wage earning equality for the same work exists in all countries.
So, once companies in the US and Oz and Europe saw the light ( or
darkness as some may say ) about employing asians at a pittance, it was
over for consumer product manufacturing in the West. Some companies have
lingered on relentlessly to make speciallist products for the military,
medicals, and for niche consumers willing to pay much more for an
"exotic amplifier", etc. Halcro of Sth Oz is a perfect example of a
product mainly made in Oz and able to fetch $50,000 for a pair of 200W
monobloc amps, which is 1/10 of the price of an average house, or about
the price of a decent car in Oz. Its absurd. But its life.
The HK Hi-Fi club said about Halcro " Ah, Halcro, it like 300B amp, but
go louder..."
Inscrutiatingly inscrutable.
Parick Turner.
Patrick Turner
> > I see rather a big need of talk around the world. I suggest the
> > thoughtful people in the US won't be choosing you to negotiate with
> > those the US hates, but who the US should be talking to.
>
> No, what there is need for is for is for people to run their own
> countries and let others do likewise.
But that's the problem. Everyone acting on their own and pushing their
own interest is isolationism.
It basically a "fuck you jack I'm alright" policy.
It was lucky Britain found an ally in the US in WW2, or where would
freedom have been?
Just what nations in Europe could carry on withour regard to their
neighbours?
> I believe the US should not
> interfere in other nations' business for the most part and not
> tolerate others interfering in ours, a policy called "isolationism" by
> its critics and "common sense" by me. Mine is a minority view here.
I agree mainly, but the US has a habit of becoming embroiled in other
nations one after the other to secure some crazy outcome. It was
supposed that the invasion of Iraq would cost the US taxpayer 5 billion,
and take a month, after which democracy and McDonalds could be imported,
and then the Multinationals could invest 20billion ove the next 20 years
to extract oil which nobody ever has stated could make these companies
maybe 2,000 billion over the same period.
Americans backed the Cowboy with such a crazy scheme.
Anyway, there's not much oil in Afghansistan and a heck of a lotta ppl
will have to die before the die hard tribals and Taliban embrace western
nation capitalism and liberal democracy. These ME nations have been
cesspools of violence and what we know to be gross personal afronts to
civil liberties for maybe 8,000 years.
> >
> > I could mention Cuba. Isn't it time to bury the hatchet?
>
> When the Castros finally die that will probably happen. Until then
> both sides are too stubborn. You have to realize the Cubans are as
> willfully intransigent as we are, plus, the better class of Cubans are
> mostly all in Miami now. Reunification now would be very messy,
> waiting another ten years when anyone who can remember things pre-1959
> will be dead would make things easier for both sides.
Yes, anything radically different to the present status quo will be slow
and difficult for some. But the old cronies have to eventually cave in
and when Cubans discover the wonders of good shopping like the East
Germans when they pushed the Wall over then slowness might be seen as
speedy change....
Consumerism is much more powerful these days than Marxist-Leninism.
Trouble is, with consumerism comes rapid resouce use and all its
greenhouse effects, so people will end up well off while having to buy
larger and larger air con units, and pay more for food, clothes and
housing.
Maybe Humanity and Hu-womanity shops itself to death over a cliff of
heat.
I don't believe people will talk to each other enough to overcome
forseeable problems.
Most deny a problem exists, and when there is one, they slug it out.
Its OK, the planet will decide if we stay, or kick us off, and then
re-invent life over the next 1,000 million years. No use getting upset
about Nature.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
flipper wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:11:49 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >flipper wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:44:25 GMT, Patrick Turner
> >> <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
snip
> >Defending one's country can be worthwhile.
>
> I'm sure it's a comfort to your fellows that, under 'some
> circumstances' you think defending one's country 'can' be worthwhile.
I will never give total allegiance to any country's government including
my own. The rest of Australia might be saddened to hear of my
conditional allegiance, but we live in a democracy and I have the right
to think the way I do and to act accordingly, So when the fuctards in
power in Oz during the 1960s tried to send conscript soldiers to
Vietnam, they were never going to be able to send me. They had a ballot
selection for conscripts in those days, so that if your name was
randomly selected then you had to become a soldier. If your name wasn't
selected, and mine wasn't, then you were not conscripted. Life and death
lotteries and conscription were abolished by a later government. The
history of trying to conscript soldiers for a war has been a bitter
fight between those upholding the rights of people to refuse to enlist
and those wanting to send mainly other people's sons off to a fight for
the "empire", ie, the British fucking empire at the time.
I didn't agree with the need to take part in invading Vietnam.
And 1/2 of Oz thought exactly as I did.
I have NEVER voted for major parties in Oz. Sooner or later they trample
over hunam rights or the environment, and my favourite words to
stoinking politicians is "Goodbye cunt face, just leave me alone."
In WW2, it did look like the Japs wanted to invade Oz but in fact there
was little likelyhood of them ever succeeding. Politicianse had no
trouble finding volunteers who thought Oz needed to return Japanese
forces throughout SE asia to Japan, dead or alive.
But since WW2, most big wars we have been expected to attend have been
ones the US got involved in and were inconclusive, ie, the Korean war,
or total fiascos, the Vietnam war. Don't ask me what our special forces
are doing in Afghanistan. I wonder how many civilian pools of blood they
are leaving behind under secret deployments. Anyway, the Taliban are
reacting by increasing their strength and the fight in Ghan looks like
another Vietnam. People like the fucking bastard Taliban arsoles have
been ruling places like Afghanistan for centuries if not thousands of
years, and nobody can deal with them unless all the population is "dealt
with" seriously. In the process after the Russians the country has
plummeted into povety, aided by the two timing foriegn policies of the
USA.
The wars in Iraq and Ghan are wars of fortune gathering; to get control
of strategic territory and billions of barrels of underground oil.
No need for Oz people to attend IMHO.
If ya wanna barrel of oil, then pay the man for it, don't try to steal
his country and ruin the lives of millions and leave 100,000 dead people
so you can get it cheaper.
The US only had to leave the sanctions against Saddam in place, keep up
the war of words, and Iraq's leadership would have toppled or died and
the people there would have sorted things out and the US would not have
spent a trillion bucks and lost 4,000 men dead and maybe 12,000 disabled
with ruined lives.
Osama Bin Laden still roams free!
>
> > So Oz fought well.
>
> I have nothing but admiration for all the freedom loving Allies who
> stepped up to the plate.
It was percieved as being very worthwhile. Worthwhile can mean its not
only profitable in finacial terms, but also in terms of moral
correctness. The Japs tried to steal whole countries, and we had no
problems saying "no you fuckin don't".
We know when talk doesn't work, and deals cannot be struck.
>
> > We also
> >fought in wars that started in europe and asia where Oz was only
> >indirectly rather than directly threatened. The silly Japs
>
> "Silly" hardly does it justice.
>
> > did directly
> >threaten Oz and they bombed the shit out of Darwin just so we'd get the
> >message, so thousands of Oz ppl had no qualms about joining the armed
> >forces. Japan bit off more than they could chew. Many Oz ppl volunteered
> >to go off in those foreign conflicts because the people of Oz personally
> >felt obliged to help Britain and America. I have no problem with people
> >volunteering because in a democratic others may do what I would not,
> >unless I though I had to.
>
> In a democracy the 'choice' is made by vote and you have no more
> 'right' to 'ignore' the decision of the majority than you do to ignore
> laws against murder.
In this country it is not treasonous at present to be a conscientious
objector to being carted off to a war you don't think is a just war.
Read Australian history about conscription and referendums. People of Oz
are pretty feisty and fussy about where they let themselves to put in
danger. And more so now than ever before. But they can be bought of
course; the wages the special forces boys in Ghan earn are considerable.
There is a huge row going on in the Oz Parliment right now about how the
Army over paid them and now wants the money back.
There's money in war you know. To many its **very** worthwhile; a few
years shootin and lootin the Taliban and you earn enough to pay a house
off real quick.
I won't interfere with what the Govt is doing in Ghan. I leave them
alone, they leave me alone, fair deal eh? I don't much agree with the
Govt, but that's democracy. I am not forced to agree to any damn thing.
>
> > In my lifetime of being a possible soldier
> >between ages 18 and 40 there was only the Vietnam fiasco to which I may
> >have been sent as a conscript. I would never have volunteered to take
> >part in such tomfoolery and downright bastardry towards a nation that
> >had not invaded the US or Oz.
>
> Just exactly which 'nation' are you referring to?
Vietnam.
The US wanted to swing a local Vietnamese civil war in a way that best
suited US expansionist foreign policies that best suited right wing
business interests. The Vietcong northern Vietnamese won the war with
the US and beat the south. They got what they wanted.
A generation later, the Nam war is still taking some time to get over,
but as people I knew all thought in 1965, the Chinese did not invade and
take Vietnam, and Marxist-Leninist Communism didn't spread south to
damage SE asia, and we had nothing to fear from ther "yellow peril" we
were told at school to be afraid of. Robert Menzies went right along
with all the bullshit ideas of Washington, but me and my mates and my
father's generation who'd fought in WW2 saw right through the idiotic
and morally vaccuus plans of the USA in the 1950s and 60s.
Thanks to improvements in modern communications and continuation of
democratic free press, people in the West cannot be fooled so easily
over how the CIA manipulates countries and supports dictators and puppet
regimes and causes coups to suit US businesses.
They still try to fool us though; "weapons of mass destruction,"
etc.....
Can't fool me.
>
> >Nations like friends will have a falling out at times, and some will
> >invade others. Shit happens, right.
>
> Speak for yourself. Mass murderers are not my 'friends' so there's
> little opportunity for a "falling out."
>
> >If you look at the longer term, Oz has spent much more time trading with
> >Japan rather than fighting her.
>
> So has the U.S., both before and after.
>
> > The rulers of Japan did not realise
> >there was more to be gained by trade rather than war. This became
> >Japan's path after WW2.
>
> Good thing we took the time to put a democracy in there (and Germany),
> eh?
It turned out to be very worthwhile. Once the shooting and bombing
stopped, the energy of all who survived could be spent constructively
and profitably. But we cannot say thankyou to providence or fate because
Hitler or Tojo came to power.
OK, the Japs and Gerries had a huge problem with hyper "non-democracy".
A big fight ensued. But the USA also had a big fight with itself in its
civil war, and the internicine fighting that went on in Europe before
WW1 is a blood stained tale if ever there was one. Homo Sapiens is a
very flawed species, and it takes aeons before a given bunch of people
create rules ppl can agree on without millions of pools of blood.
Much talk in needed to establish the peace, and a lot of bright ideas.
Without both you have anarchy.
>
> > It appears China has no desire to invade Oz
> >soon. China is trying to buy large shares in multinationals digging for
> >minerals in Oz which are so handy when you make things to export to
> >foreigners to make a buck. So they figure if they owned the mines they'd
> >get the minerlas dirt cheap instead of paying through the nose to
> >western nation multinationals. Just business. No pools of blood and
> >blown up people.
>
> The story's not over yet.
Agreed, and it won't be over for thousands of years, or hundreds of
thousands of years.
But I doubt what is likely within 10 years will be relevant in the year
100,000. Will anyone remember Christ? will the calendar still be based
upon his birth? I doubt it. Maybe we will be recovering from several
bouts of nuclear wars, only to rise again, fight again and kill again,
and develop again all over and over again. But each time it will be more
difficult because the oil and minerals will be deeper and less easily
got at. Meanwhile the worst nuclear waste will not even be 1/2 way
through its half life.
I could make wild predictions, but they'd be wrong.
Meanwhile the Chinese are intent on buying large share interests of
multinational mining companies operating in Oz. Why invade Oz when you
can buy it so cheap these days?
>
> >Obama would do well to have deep and meaningful discussions with the
> >Taliban, Iran, Hamas, and anyone else who grieves America. This does not
> >mean he has to roll over and give in to anyone, but jaw-jaw leaves less
> >carnage of innocent lives than does war-war.
>
> That's so sweet it brings tears to my eyes and if we work really hard
> at it we might get lucky like Lord Chamberlain and have "peace in our
> time."
Chamberlain looked such a fool stepping off the plane with a bit of
paper flapping in the breeze. Everyone who wasn't a fool knew it. But
you do have to keep talking nevertheless.
>
> One would have thought that Chamberlain's debacle would have put to
> bed once and for all the left wing myth that absolutely anything can
> be resolved with no-matter-who by simply talking it to death and all
> Chamberlain's jaw-jaw accomplished was to make the ensuing war-war
> much-much worse-worse than if it had been confronted earlier. That was
> *supposed* to be one of the lessons learned when the world declared to
> "never again let this happen."
Its not bad to keep talking. The left fights for what it wants, usually
parity with the rich whose sons find a way of not having to fight. The
left to me are an embittered lot, jealous of other's success, but
without the left there'd have been only the right, and many people's
rights would have been trampled on much worse. We have what's called a
"mixed economy" where there are government run services and private
enterprize, and the taxpayer funded government owned acticities such as
hosptals abs schools and old age pension schemes and all the huge social
security handout systems are a result of left thinking. Right thinking
leaves anyone to rot if things are not ideal for them.
Both left and right are needed it seems.
Trade unions were always seen as left wing oriented organisations, and
right wing Govt's have tried to exterminate them. Oz voted last year for
a Labour Party which tore up the previous right wing Liberal Govt
planned legislation called Work Choices, which included much restriction
of worker's basic rights.
We believe in a fair go in Oz. And not just for the bosses.
>
> >Some things don't look easy to resolve. But they did resolve the
> >intractable bothers with Northern Ireland.
>
> Typical left wing babble. No, they didn't *just* 'resolve it' any more
> than we resolved WWII by 'talking'. They 'resolved' it only after
> decades of fighting.
Yeah, because people would not talk.
>
> Certainly nothing resembling a World War but they didn't "we have a
> problem... oh?.... well, let's talk about it.... jaw-jaw... cool,
> problem solved."
>
> >So it is with the Palestinians. No matter how many times Israel bombs
> >and kills 100 Paloes when one of its own are killed,
>
> I hate to burst your bubble but in a 'war' the goal is not a 1-1 kill
> ratio.
That's one big problem with war. When we bomb Berlin, they bomb London.
One city for another, and it all escalates out of control when one side
plans to take out a dozen cities.
I doubt I will ever again see any country such as the US taking out
entire cities one by one in a systematic manner to ensure total
humiliation and capitulation. OK, In Japan WW2 was won this way, and it
"saved 200,000 allied soldier's lives".
Methinks a naval blockade for 5 years may have been far cheaper and
easier and burned far fewer innocents alive.
So what if Japan may have become like North Korea. Their problem for not
talking. Far less human prosperity as a result of Japan not having
prospered after WW2 would have made resources of the world last longer.
How come the US didn't successfully invade Cuba? To me the rot of modern
weakness had set in. But then Cubans had big friends in Russia, and so
it was agreed to just limit Cuba's abilities. Its worked. Rulers in the
US, Kennedy for one had a few conversations on the phone to the people
in the Kremlin and an arrangement was worked out and the russian
missiles went back to russia. Meanwhile, Russia coudldn't get the US to
remove the missiles based in Europe back to the US. Much more talking
needs to be done to reduce the nuclear weapons still pointed at each
other. People of Cuba live miserable lives materially, and Castro's
secret police are alive and well, and pity help you if you don't join
the "Party" and perform Party activities unpaid.
If the Cubans all decided enough was enough, they'd all just lay down
tools for months, and the cries of "Viva La Revolution" would soon die
away. Those people running the regime would then have to get a real job.
But its always been difficult for the south americans and cubans to get
rid of their dictators easily, and some even voted in Chavez to be able
to stay in power indefinatly. Gee, I'd never vote yes to someone wanting
extend parlimentary terms from the 3 years we have here between
elections. I'd like elections once a year, with 6 options yes or no
about specific policies.
Maybe in another 50 years people in Cuba will wake up a bit, but it
should be their business, and not the business of the US to fabricate
the future of Cuba. Cuba before Communism for the cubans wasn't a nice
place. Its why a revolution happened. The US has been sore ever since.
The US should wake up. Time to bury the hatchet, because how can today's
Cuban young generation be responsible for the actions of their grand
parents?
> > and no matter how
> >many wars its won against Arab nations in the past, the Palestinians
> >still won't give their land rights away. Peace will come there when
> >Israel gives back land it stole so that the refugees can come back home.
> >Its that simple.
>
> It's "that simple" to the ignorant and simple minded.
>
> For one, that region was part of the Ottoman Empire and the
> Palestinians *never* had a 'country'. To make matters worse it's not
> clear any of them ever had any 'land' because the Ottoman Empire
> didn't work that way. Most, with the exception of what, in the 'West',
> could be called 'nobles', were essentially serfs or tenant farmers.
Yeah, well talk to the old people in Palo refugee camps still clutching
their keys to houses on land they were pushed off.
People in the ME think there's nothing to lose by continuing the fight.
They had something, and then along came Jews and it was taken.
>
> The Jews, however, did own their land (the original late 1800s Zionist
> movement with the blessing of the Ottoman Empire).
>
> Having set the stage, WWI saw the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and
> England got (among others) the 'Palestine Mandate."
>
> Now it gets fun as the intent and 'deal' offered was to make a country
> run by the Palestinians with only one 'requirement', that a modest
> number of Jews be allowed to emigrate for a limited period of time.
>
> But, as someone once said, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity
> to miss an opportunity so they refused and the perennial 'two state
> solution' was born never to be resolved to this day.
Not enough talking.
And most certainly not enough listening.
>
> The League of Nations could never solve it, not that they ever solved
> anything (because all they could do is TALK), and England was tired of
> decades of conflict with WWII being the final straw. England had had
> enough and declared they were 'leaving', good riddance, and the newly
> formed U.N. offered another 'two state solution' that the Palestinians
> promptly rejected, as they had every solution.
Wars in the ME have been going on since Adam and Eve in the Garden,
somewhere in Iraq well before it has become the most wasted agriculural
place in the world from over use and war after war after war and usually
over land.
>
> The Jews, however, had also had enough, Hitler and all, and decided to
> take the deal figuring that waiting for the Palestinians to ever
> decide on anything would be another thousand years.
>
> Now, the newly formed Jewish State asked the Arab population to stay.
> It was the 'Arab League' armies that told them to leave, which they
> gladly did, because the 'plan' was for the Arab Armies to roll over
> the region 'exterminating' the Jewish infestation. Would be easier,
> you see, if they could just kill everything in sight.
>
> Needless to say, things did not go as the Arab armies had planned.
That's the other problem with war; it rarely goes to plan. Iraq just
cost the US about a trillion or two, and was supposed to cost 5 billion
max, have democracy installed within 6 mths, and McDonalds in every new
Iraqi shopping mall and there should now have been 5 billion spent by US
owned oil companies building oil extraction infrastructure and oil
prices should have become **real low** and everyone should have been so
happy. Nothing like this dream has occurred. Not enough talk, not enough
listening, and certainly not enough understanding of local conditions
and peoples has occurred in stupid neo-con minds in the US.
In the fullness of time Jewish presence in Israel may well be squashed.
The fight over ME land has been going on for many centuries. Look at the
effects of the Crusades and the Arab response over time. Many many pools
of blood across the landscape. Iran might be silly enough to nuke
Israel, should be easy because its so compact, and then what? Maybe Iran
loses a few cities by means of jewish retaliation but the jews are all
fried. I don't like to think about the consequences after that. Its a
New Time for the ME when Arab states get their Bomb, and develop rockets
to deliver them accurately. The Paloes will continue to suffer and be a
general pest whatever happens. I don't like how Hamas operates but I
sure can see why there are so many angry young men in the ME. They see a
jew roll by in a fancy car, and they have no job and all they can think
about is hate and picking up a rock and throwing at the jew. The jews
built a huge 10Metre high wall to stop the suicide bombers. OK, so the
bombs just come by air these days. When they begin to come via space,
and are much bigger and better guided, watch out, because there's a real
problem. If the jews bomb the Iranian nuke making plants then it will
only delay the response of arabs and the iranians. Iran has so many
people, and making bombs is easy now and the plants are probably now so
widely dispersed that it may be difficult to stop Iranian plans. It sure
will be next time if they are stopped soon. But the Iranians are not
likely to give up if the jews tried anything.
>
> > There should be discussions about it.
>
> You tell me what the 'discussion' is about when the other side starts
> with the 'non negotiable' condition that your country and people must
> cease to exist.
Well, you ask them into dinner, and be polite. Sooner or later those
present think its better to lay down the sword and shield and relax and
eat.
What do I do in the presence of a vast number of people who think
building amps with vaccum tubes is a waste of energy and a toxic
activity in greehouse terms.
I ask them to listen to music. OK, then they sometimes stop their silly
nonsense, and allow me to persue a craft that is 0.01% of mainstream
activity which is all worse than what I do.
>
> However, that problem has been 'jaw-jawed' to death and it's still
> there.
>
> The typical 'negotiation' is Hammas is happy to talk you to death
> while they simultaneously blow you up and "cease fire" is Hammas
> terminology for "a pause while we import more weapons."
OK, so the jews should by now have closed **all** the tunnels feeding
the Gaza, but we are told only 30% got hit in the last shootout which
gained Israel a terrible retutation for being a prime bully.
Israel lost IMHO because Hamas and all the other angry young men are
still there and all ever more so determined to fight on.
Israel's behaviour is not pure as the driven snow.
>
> >People in the ME will fight for centuries to get back what they think is
> >theirs.
>
> So much for your 'jaw-jaw' theory, then.
Wars ebb and flow, and there has to be jaw-jaw eventually....
>
> >I can't help but mention Iraq.
>
> You can't help but mention whatever pops into your head whether it's
> relevant or not.
>
> > But Iraq didn't threaten the US now did
> >it?
>
> Yes, it did, as well as the region and the world.
I think those ideas are all bullshit. Neo-con bullshit. Used to justify
anything imaginable, like stealing Iraq and its oil. In 2003, Iraq was
creaking along slowly and rather painfully after having its wings
clipped severely in 1991, after Kuwait. The sanctions imposed by the
West meant Saddam battled to stay in power, and that 500,000 unnecessary
deaths of children in Iraqi hospitals occurred because they could not
get western medical aid. The Iraq ally of the US in the 1980s had become
too big for its boots, and instead of receiving US support, it now had
to be controlled. Bush Senior sensibly stopped short of invading Iraq in
'91 because he knew the difficulties, but his stupid son thought it'd be
a doddle.
>
> > So what right did the US have in invading it and causing hundreds of
> >thousands of casulaties and forcing millions to pack up and leave the
> >country?
>
> The right of self defense, and the fact that Iraq violated the 'cease
> fire' from day 1, and for over 10 years, including over a dozen
> *mandatory* Security Council resolutions.
Total Bullshit. Had the US been in a similar position as Iraq from some
foreign power, it would have misbehaved the same way.
Lemme tellya, it was the US with all the weapons of mass destruction.
Not Iraq.
Iraq in 2003 couldn't hurt a fly, let alone any of its neighbouring
countries.
But Iraq just had a shirt and trouser load of oil under its dirt, and
the US wanted it. So the US invents a whole stack of lies to justify a
small effort to go and get the oil. Not so easy though.
>
> And that's ignoring the fact he was a mass murdering dictator who'd
> already started 2 wars.
Pales into insignificance at what has happened since 2003.
Saddam was Iraq's terrible dictator, sure, and propped up by the US in
the 80s. And history shows there has always been a "Bull in Bagdad" ie,
some cunt who deals out death to many around him. Its been going on for
at least 8,000 years.
If the Iraqui people really wanted something different then they could
have arranged it for themselves.
Did you notice what Ghandi achieved in India? And how did he do it?
Not everyone works out a future for themselves peacefully; maybe the ME
people will spend another 10,000 years trying. How about we leave them
to it?
Influential countries like the USA will come and go many times in a
10,000 year period. But what looks certain is that by 10,000 years the
ME will be entirely devoid of any oil, and within maybe a hundred years.
Expect many depressed ex oil shieks driving potholed roads in rusty
mercedes benz pulled along with a camel or two.
>
> One might think Iran would actually be a bit pleased we eliminated the
> bastard but, then, they didn't get to conquer the place this way.
>
> >Talking wasn't going to work very well with Saddam,
>
> No shit, Sherlock. What gave it away? 10 years of 'talk'?
>
> > but you have to keep
> >at it when dealing with a rotter who's up against the wall,
>
> So said Lord Chamberlain.
>
> Rhetorical question: How many times does a dictator have to shove a
> rod up your ass before you notice it's there?
I never said we should stop shooting to defend ourselves **while** we
continue to talk. Sometimes there **is no** other alternative.
Much has been achieved with talk, and listening, and exchange of ideas.
Usually its the elders of the tribe who do this because their arthritis
prevents then running around with spears and bows and arrows screaming
abuse at each other and raping each others wives and burning each
other's children.
As Elders its Our Duty to bring law and peace. We must keep at it.
> > and after
> >1991 they had Saddam "contained"
>
> You're good at regurgitating canned talking points.
>
> "Contained" how? And 'what' was "contained?"
Well, since he copped a bashing from Coalition forces in '91, he didn't
menace too many other nations. The exception was the Kurds, upon whom
Saddam used poison gas. Anything to gain an edge. The stupid bastard
Saddam should have asked the kurds to dinner and won them around, but
the kurds are a people who'd like to have their own nation and everyone
hates them. Turkey sure hates them. There is a price for perpetual hate.
Saddam fitted the Bagdad mould of Big Chief Bull of Bagdad. The whole
region is a mass of seething uneducated angry poor tribes who disagree
about nearly everything, and to get to be in power in Bagdad means you
have to be an utter bastard, and keep your revolver barrel hot, and the
torture chambers well sound proofed.
>
> Rhetorical, again, actually, because the reason Iraq came to a head
> when it did is because the sanction regime was falling apart. Both
> France and Russia were 100% for ending them entirely, along with all
> U.N. 'mandates', as they had oil contracts signed, in hand, that could
> only be executed on their lifting. And the U.N. Secretary General had
> announced that there was no chance the inspection regime would ever be
> reconstituted so the U.N. was formally declaring they would no longer
> even try.
There wasn't anything the weapons inspectors could find.
The US was merely nervous that Iraq would slip into euro or russian
hands. All that oil going to the wrong people.
Hence the invasion. Better get it before the others do.
>
> > and he did NOT have any weapons of mass
> >destruction;
>
> Irrelevant as having 'stockpiles' was never 'the reason' nor was
> simply not having 'stockpiles' the condition of cease fire.
Bullshit.
>
> He retained the expertise, programs, and capability to replenish WMD
> within months of removing sanctions, which was imminent, and had
> already demonstrated, more than once, what he enjoyed doing with them,
> both at home and abroad.
More Bullshit.
Nearly every country has expertise, and programs for self defense that
could be used for aggression.
>
> The above is quite enough but, at the same time, Al Qaeda was then
> 'homeless' and both (and both Sunni) had declared they were "at war"
> with the United States. It was simply unacceptable that the two "at
> war" belligerents might link up, with one already having WMD
> capability.
The Sheite rose against Saddam with US backing. The US abandoned them
and Saddam liquidated a whole bunch more.
This crap about Al Qaeda was bullshit because Saddam had nothing to gain
with their presence in Iraq.
But look, Bush saw 'Q' in Qaeda and 'Q' in Iraq, so he reckoned there
was a connection, so shooting it out with Saddam's feeble army seemed
justified for revenge against Arab towelheads who'd dared to bomb the US
soft underbelly of the twin towers. The connection was just yet another
reason to go in for the oil.
If Iraq had vast crops of say brocoli instead of hidden oceans of oil
under its sand then there was no way the US would have bothered with a
hot sweaty dirty smelly dictator of a minor ME country.
>
> The world is better off without him and the only hope for the Middle
> East is the same hope that saved western Europe from war after war:
> democracies instead of ego maniacal dictators with delusions of
> grandeur.
I fear a very fragile democracy in the ME once US troops leave by August
next year. The disgruntled Sunnis are sore losers, and may take up arms
again to regain power over the majority of Shiites yet again. Maybe they
are biding their time, now they see that the US is finally having to
pull out.
>
> > the yanks were the ones with all those.
>
> Damn right, and it's what kept you from having to learn Japanese,
> Russian, or Arabic... so far.
But we are entering a new world order, and the old imaginings you state
are no longer likely to occur. Australia has a Prime Minister who speaks
fluent mandarin so he can face the Chinese Giant and look them in the
eyes and talk with them.
I doubt the Chinese would ever want us all to talk Chinese. No need to
force that on us. Meanwhile if the deals and take overs of western owned
companies by Chinese continues, what people's lives will be like will be
determined in board rooms in Bejing instead of New York. The rulers of
China will be happy to let Australians think they have a country but be
happy to have indirect control over it. Australians are a soft fat
population now like the US and will probably allow the Chinese take
overs. It used to be "what's good for General Motors is good for you"
but that will change to "what's good for China is good for you". Its all
being done with peacefull talk and listenings. Vast numbers of Chinese
students pay to study at universities in Australia, and to kick them out
would be seen as terribly racist and plain wrong. We are determined to
educate them in western techniques of running businesses with skills.
During the process and despite the students fervent Chines nationalist
stance and their cocky pride in their country, they will notice our
reservedness and the brightest of them will see how rampant
nationalistic fever can lead to Nationalism, like it was in Germany in
1933 when the idea that Germans were a superior race etc, and that
everyone needs to be aware that Nationalism is a danger to any nation if
its out of control. In Canberra when the Olympic torch was briefly run
through our city, the Tibetans used the opportunity to wage a rally to
their cause and the Chinese students came from larger cities of
Melbourne and Sydney in hundreds all bussed in to counter the Tibetans.
Those Chines earned the label "fucking red coat bullies" for sure during
that time. Not all Chinese are bullies. And just who would get to study
in Oz from China? Probably unless you had Party connections in China,
you'd never be allowed out of China. The CCP will eventually crumble
under its own weight but just what replaces it remains to be seen. We
hope Chinese graduates from our universities where mainly western
professors teach then with words so fervantly might be helping China to
better democracy in the longer term.
The education we give the Chinese students of impressionable age is the
talk needed to establish peace, IMHO.
Its very worthwhile too because those students pay well to attend our
unies.
>
> > Meanwhile the death
> >toll from US traffic accidents and gun shootings is far higher than that
> >caused by terrorists.
>
> Which is utterly irrelevant because cars don't declare war.
Oh yes they do, when brakes decide not to work, or an engine seizes.
And look at the vanity the motor car inspires. I cannot think of
anything that causes so much money to be wasted as the motot car, apart
from the national defense budget to avoid having to talk to wayward
nations.
The motor car attacks our purse severely, and when a relative dies in
one we are greatly thankful it wasn't us, and if it was our dad we mourn
him as if he'd been killed at a war. Industrial accidents are an attack
as well.
Attacks by cars and industry and chemical pollution in these wars
continue. It is within our power to prevent such colateral, but it seems
the majority of people realise the cost of changes to minimize troop
losses on the nation's roads and in the nation's factories isn't
worthwhile because to get a ten fold cut in losses you'd increase travel
time and costs and reduce productivity by far too much for people to
tolerate.
>
> > So when much of the world views the the US with
> >telescopes, they shudder over what they see with many inconsistencies
> >and contradictions; the US looks like a crazy place they **don't** want
> >to emulate.
>
> We can only hope the rest of the world isn't as moronic as that babble
> and can tell the difference between an automobile and a mass murdering
> dictator who likes to lob chemical weapons on his own people.
The US tolerates an enormous unnecessary death toll within its own
boders.
Everyone gets away with being a little dictator in the US if they want.
You seem to me to be brainswashed by neo cons and all those American
Supremicists who see the US as the only country in the world with any
sense of national right and wrong, and that the US might is always
right.
Where is your humility we could respect?
> Or the
> difference between automobiles and 'islamo-fascists' who think
> 'political expression', or simply because they're wearing the wrong
> color shoes, is blowing up your mamma and baby sister in a grocery
> store. Which would be bad enough without them also thinking it's
> 'Allah's will' they rule the world so they can kill all the rest who
> wear the wrong color shoes.
I didn't say the towel head fanaticist suicide bombers were good people.
To me those who live by the sword can die by the sword without us
mourning them. We should remember them, because fanatics tend to spring
up like mushrooms. Usually fnatics become a pest where they have had a
lousy rotten childhood and no prospects of gainful and cherful
employment.
The more they get educated, the more likely they won't become zombies
with bombs.
Education is talk and more talk.
>
> >So I won't be volunteering to go to fight for the US cause in
> >Afghanistan. Meanwhile the Taliban are strengthening in Pakistan and the
> >shit fight will extend further.
>
> Be my guest and go try some 'jaw-jaw' with them. Just be sure to have
> your dead on a zipper so you can reattach it later.
>
> >And when they fight a war these days they declare is a war against
> >"terrorism", ie, anyone who thinks differently to the US.
>
> Are you really that stupid, or just pretending?
>
> But yes, flying airliners loaded with innocent civilians into
> skyscrapers full of thousands more innocent civilians is by people who
> "thinks differently to the US," as well as ANY civilized people
>
> And while we're at it, the idea that "one man's terrorist is another
> man's freedom fighter" is left wing false equivalency BULL SHIT.
Well, once those who fought the British to establish the USA were
terrorists from the British point of view.
>
> > They don't
> >make a formal declaration of war and demand the nominated enemy swear
> >unconditional surrender.
>
> A "formal declaration of war" is between countries and if you'll
> simply point me to the 'country of Al Qaeda' I'll gladly have them
> stick it on the document, just to make you happy.
>
> But "ha, ha, I'm not a country so you can't shoot at me while I murder
> your people wherever and whenever I can" ain't gonna fly. pal, and
> it's just too bad if that 'confuses' you.
>
> > Just what is the mission plan of the US?
>
> To eliminate their ability to wage war on our people and allies.
It'll be a permanent activity then.
But much injustice is done in this war's aims.
The fate of about 30,000 locked up and dealt with without trials in
secret locations around the world just breeds more discontent and more
enemies of the US.
That Guantamano Bay jail is just the tip of the ice burg. The US people
should know just who is being held and why.
>
> > nobody
> >really knows
>
> Speak for yourself.
>
> > but seems to me its all about oil and how to get it cheap.
>
> Ignorance leads to ridiculous myths but it takes left wing lunacy to
> get the really stupid ones like that.
Sure, oil had nothing to do with the war in Iraq. This is bullshit.
Without ther oil there would have been no war.
>
> >At least the Japs knew what to say when they finally saw the light of
> >two atomic bombs.
>
> They damn near didn't. Fortunately, the military coup failed.
>
> > "Ah so, we surrender completely". People move on after
> >the right words are spoken for the occasion.
>
> The islamo-fascist leaders could do the same thing.
They don't do this much in the ME. They just choose to fight another
day. Have a few sons, brainwash them up a bit, and let 'em rip.
They keep wanting what they want.
People have lotsa troubles with what they want.
People need to realise, be afraid if you get what you want.
I happen to think there are more naturally unhappy people in the ME.
Wouldn't you be too if each day it was 50C outside and you were dirt
poor without any uplifiting prospects to look forward to?
>
> >Oz has a special forces contingent in Ghan and lord only knows how many
> >inocent ppl are dying in pools of blood from their secret activities to
> >thwart the Taliban.
>
> It's the Taliban who blows up innocent civilians, dufuss.
Yeah, then we go in and blow up Taliban, and goodness how many people
get caught in cross fire.
>
> >The Russians lost 15,000 men in Ghan.
>
> They were trying to conquer it.
Methinks the US will have to as well or they will fail. Conquering takes
blood. Maybe more than Iraq.
And maybe the whole place slides back into backwardness when troops
leave after being forced out after the cost goes skyward and people in
the US realise its yet another hopeless cause.
OK, so the US prevails in Ghan. Then what. Where is the prize? a passage
for an oil pipe across Ghan to get oil out? that was one mission plan
the US had. Methinks there isn't much in Ghan worth anything really,
except some wonderful potential of some wonderful people there and
unfortuantely there seems to be a difficult large minority of not so
wonderfuls that spoil it for their betters. The US will have to shoot a
shirt and trouserload of people in Ghan. They shoot back. If that isn't
conquering, what is it?
Conquering didn't work out in Korea real well or in Vietnam.
I hope I ain't wrong, but why don't you write out a list of wars and
skirmishes the US has found itself in and beside each fight give a tick
for a clear win and a cross for a clear loss and a nought for a
stalemate. Its an interesting exercize.
Lotsa crosses and noughts on that list I reckon.
>
> > The US then
> >supported the Taliban who finally prevailed.
>
> No, we did not support "the Taliban." We supported Afghanistan.
The US supplied arms to mujuhaddeeen to fight russians. Those helped by
the US were often the same folks now called Taliban. They got rid of the
ruskies and went on to take over the whole Ghan, then Osama got with
them and because the whole country was so utterly ravaged by wars only
hardened Taliban could become a real power, and anyway, Americas friends
became its enemies; oh how circumstances change. Repressive
fundementalist muslims have lorded over Ghan for centuries. Its only now
the US picks the fight.
>
> Nor did we 'pick' who was in the fight.
Well, you have a fight now.
>
> The 'mistake' we made belies your left wing lunacy in that we 'left
> them alone to their own country' after the invader withdrew. 'Self
> determination' and all that 'nobility.
>
> > Bastardry. Then the Taliban
> >got a bit naughty and became a menace what with 911 and Osama BL, ( who
> >still roams free ), and then the US has been taking revenge ever since
> >and trying to have a "new world order" that favours the US and few
> >others.
>
> Oh sure, you'd be 'favored' with a severed head.
>
> What's really pathetic is you're just the kind of person the
> islamo-fascists consider an unredeemable pestilence.
You have me so wrong. Should local fundo muslims become a problem here I
won't cry a tear if people see fit to burn mosques to the ground but its
never happened. We simply persue them in the courts and jail planners of
terror and thus we do not stoop to being on the same level as they are.
Such fairly tried and jailed people remain alive as a reminder to others
about what happens if your'e a naughty muslim.
We could be attacked at any minute. We sure were in Bali.
Sharks attack more Oz folks each year at beaches than do terrorists.
I went to Bali in '81 for a 1 month holiday and was impressed by seeing
many poor but happy people.
Bali has a blood drenched history. In witnessing the Balinese way of
life I saw how vain my own was. But I never want to return there.
People attack other people here as they do in the US. There's more
people living in terror of their ordinary neighbours than in terror of
the few moslem die hards.
>
> >Not all the folks who Rome conquered liked being attached to Rome and
> >having to pay taxes to Rome.
>
> Irrelevant babble.
That's what the Romans said. By 400AD, they became a spent force, and
Rome was sacked, and thus began the "Dark Ages".
>
> > Some folks enjoyed being part of Rome, and
> >lived on to develop nations that out did Rome.
>
> After a thousand years of dark ages misery, not that it has a damn
> thing to so with current events.
History is relevant because it teaches us what is likely now.
Americans should study history much more deeply than they do.
>
> > Things got complicated.
> >But not many in the ME want to see the US have a control that they see
> >is unfair.
>
> Those poor Iraqis, left with a constitutional democracy instead of
> being gassed by their own dictator.
The war brought to them by the US has displaced 2 million+ as refugees
living outside Iraq and caused maybe 100,000 deaths and it makes Saddam
look saintly by comparison of numbers. I know, you have God on your
side, and you meant well, you tried, and they wouldn't listen, and they
shot and bombed you back with 6 years of guerila war, you were never
appreciated for all the good you meant to bring. Algeria freed itself of
France and French soldiers, the Egyptians and Indians got rid of
British, so too the US will have to leave the ME. I do recall the Japs
didn't like the presence of the pushy US before 1900, and the Chinese
eventually forced the British into accepting a 99 year lease on Hong
Kong. 99 years later when the lease was up fro renewal, guess what
happened, no renewal.
But then a funny change due to lotsa jaw-jaw about all contentious
matters in China was underway after some old red communist bugger said
"To Become Rich Is Glorious", and then thousands proceeded to do so now
that it was allowable. Then after much jaw jaw they worked out how to
avoid huge pools of blood and allowed the operation of HK much the same
after the lease the Poms had run out.
There was only one hiccup when tank drivers were commanded to run right
over students demonstrating for democracy in Tianmin Square.
Some old fuddy duddy guys in central control of the Party made a silly
mistake as is the case of sour old buggers. But in China family is
everything, and for children to rebel it is scandalous, and very wrong,
and these naughty children need to be taught a lesson, so tanks drove
over them. before morning most bodies were cleaned away, and it looked
like nothing shameful had happened. Well, big deal. Big country, 1
billion + people, and shit is always going on somewhere. Look at the
riots in the US in the 60s, and how they shot Martin Luther King, and
Kennedy. Every country has its dirty washing.
So don't try to convince me otherwise.
> >Iran is determined to ensure what happened in Iraq cannot happen to
> >itself
>
> Well, you're right about one thing. The islamo-fascists in Iran sure
> don't want a democracy there.
Democracy tends to evolve spontaneously when the time is right. And it
can happen after years of local wars. It depends largely on educational
standards and prosperity, or a large prospect of prosperity as was the
case of East Germany.
>
> > hence their need to build obscene atomic weapons and the means of
> >delivery with accuracy.
>
> Hitler couldn't have said it better.
Its put up or shut up time for the US and Israel. Either they bomb shit
out of Iran now or let it become a nuclear power.
Or they try to make peace deals.
The US doesn't have the controls it would like to stop the Hitlers of
the world springing up like mushrooms.
The world has never been free of rogues.
We jaw-jaw, maybe war-war, and muddle on. Let's hope it doesn't become
too radioactive while we proceed. If we suffer nuclear war in our
lifetimes, our lives may be shortened. If greenhouse becomes far worse
faster than thought, ditto, and expect more wars over food.
Under such prospects then expect people of child bearing years to become
mightily peeved, and depressed, and not want to breed. And maybe such
pissed off people withdraw dangerously within themselves and maybe cause
a good decent nuclear war world wide. Look that the way 1/3 the
bushfires in Oz were lit deliberately. How could anyone do that? Because
there is evil in many people right around us.
This is reality.
>
> Of course, it wouldn't have been a problem, either way, if Hitler
> hadn't wanted to conquer Europe, and then the rest, and there wouldn't
> be a problem with Iran either if they weren't ruled by islamo-fascist
> nut cases funding and sending terrorists all over the world .
>
> > Why is it that the US insists it has the right
> >to be a super power and have weapons and armies
>
> Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, to name a few.
>
> > and object to Iran who
> >merely wants to defend itself?
>
> You are a fool.
>
> Hell, you don't even have the right propaganda. Iran says they aren't
> building one. Hardy har har.
>
> > With A-bombs and good rockets Iran will
> >at least deter the US from attacking it, just like the US couldn't
> >attack Russia or China or India and expect to get away with it like they
> >are doing with Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> It's very easy to get along with the U.S.. Just don't MURDER people or
> try to take over the world. Hell, you can even get away with a fair
> number of murders, as long as you keep it in your own country.
Well, that's exactly what most people think in the US as they shoot each
other. Nobody likes having to shoot ppl but they do like to solve
problems that way in the US.
And of course one mustn't try to take over the world, but that's what US
big business has been trying to do for years and years. Its only
business. Peacefull mostly, just gimme this and that and here's some
doolars. Why hassle with bullets when you can buy your way to world
domination? Seen those big joint ventures in asia where teeming hordes
of slaves make clothes and things they can't afford themselves?
No need to shoot a single soul. The US gets things done in asia at $2
per day. It costs $25 per hour to have the same thing done in the US.
Where is the social justice in this? Who sponsors such happy pleasant
slavery? The US and the rest of the West.
> >I see rather a big need of talk around the world. I suggest the
> >thoughtful people in the US won't be choosing you to negotiate with
> >those the US hates, but who the US should be talking to.
>
> Another moronic left wing myth, that the U.S. wasn't 'talking' to
> Iran, Hammas, or anyone else in your fantasy list. It's been nothing
> BUT talk talk talk talk with Iran.
Yeah, but the US always talks the US talk and you get spotted. Despite
all the talk in the world, that fool in Iran, Mr Afterdinnerjab says
he'd like to see Israel back in Arab hands, and its naughty talk. Under
the Shah a vast number of Iranians were very unhappy, and the Shah kind
of set a bad example, so liberalization and democracy stalled and power
fell into theocratic rule by Ayotolla Kohmeni. People of Iran went right
along with that idea. Maybe a million men died fighting Iraq under the
mullahs. Not very nice, but it was the Iranian way at that time. ( No
worse than a million americans dying in a civil war. Bad, sure. ) Not
much anyone could have done in the Iran-Iraq war except that the US gave
assistance to both sides in that war to make sure both countries were
weakened. The ideal outcome for the US woud have been if all angry
young men in the ME had shot and killed each other at the same time.
The US forgot the fervant nature of the women who did no fighting. They
continued to breed like rabbits and a whole new lot of potential
soldiers now replace all those who fell or were maimed. They are not a
happy lot and want things. People are such a damn bother; they sn sooner
grow up and they start wanting things, and the Iranians don't want much
of what the US has to offer. Some would of course, and I'd be rich if I
had a dollar for every Iranian who watches a clandestine porno movie
made in Hollywood. I believe while they may well have a taste for US
decadence, they'd be appaled to have US people live next door.
I hope the new US president presides over new dialogue with Iran.
But Mrs Clinton is such an old windbag doncha think?
>
> >I could mention Cuba. Isn't it time to bury the hatchet?
>
> Give our blessing to a dictator who puts people like you in jail?
My sister went their for a holiday.
Not as bad as many other places.
> Typical. Left wing loons love to criticize the U.S. for, in the past,
> 'dealing with dictators' and then the next word out of their mouth is
> "why don't you deal with this dictator?"
Well there isn't consistency in US foreign policy and its
implementation.
Its an impossible situation while many US ppl want to prop up a rotten
regime usually for their financial gain while right minded people want
the regime terminated. Then with regimes change in the US or in
countries concerned the talk and dealing rules all change. Nobody knows
where they are.
Occasionally people get shot.
>
> Here's the real world fact of it. Sometimes it is necessary to 'deal
> with a dictator', like Stalin in WWII, but there's no compelling
> reason to sprinkle love dust over Castro.
Cubans chose Castro. They didn't resist the change from the rulers
before Castro. Of course many dictators get all too cosy with the power
they bring to themselves while denying anyone else to have power. Just
look where Zimbabwe is right now. A complete fuckin mess, and why
someone hasn't managed a well aimed shot at Mugabe is a mystery. Now
there's an old man who won't listen when spoken to.
Mugabe makes Castro look like a saint.
I'd never holiday in Cuba.
I'm not left wing enough to be fooled by the left.
The Communist Party of Australia never ever quite had a very successful
following in Oz. During my apprenticeship as a carpenter I met an old
carpenter who thought Mao was doing a real fine job in China. We now
know different, but I doubted the old guy's bullshit back then.
Firm believing commos in Oz before WW2 imagined Oz as a kind of future
worker's utopia, and some visted Russia to see how things were working
out after 20 years post the October revolution. Some were plainly not
impressed at all by what they saw, or were allowed to see.
Long haired student Commos at the Sydney uni tried to send funds to help
the Vietcong win. These were big fuckin educated idiots.
They were helping to get Oz soldiers shot sooner. Some commos were real
good, and shared and cared well for other folks.
I got educated by a mob of communists known otherwise as the Christian
Brothers. They taught me a lot of natural right and wrong.
I disagreed with the Vietnam war and wouldn't have gone if I'd been
conscripted. I remain a non left person, but also a non right person.
Nobody can convince me to go along with them in some crazy scheme that
leads to uneccessary pools of blood.
I don't fill in social surveys, and I like to let them keep guessing.
Patrick Turner.
Iain Churches
"flipper" <fli...@fish.net> wrote in message
news:0129q41ov9aebg3eh...@4ax.com...
> That's so sweet it brings tears to my eyes and if we work really hard
> at it we might get lucky like Lord Chamberlain and have "peace in our
> time."
Ahem. Sorry to be pedantic. Don't confuse the man with the title.
The gentleman to whom you refer, Neville Chmberlain, never held
the post to which you refer that of The Lord Chamberlain who is
a senior officer of the Royal Household in the United Kingdom.
Neither was Neville Chamberlain (British Prime Minister 1937-1940)
ever elevated to the House of Lords. The closest he ever got to using
"lord" as a title was in 1915 when he became lord Mayor of Birmingham.
He also held the title First Lord of the Treasury, but was never Lord
Chamberlain.
Regards
Iain
Phil Allison
"flipper" <fli...@fish.net>wrote
** You are a stupid, bullshitting, criminal cunthead - flipper.
And a whole lot less than sane.
Hope that massive brain tumour you have kills you real soon.
...... Phil