cost effective acoustic foam????
Junk
finding $4 to $10 / sq foot for wedge (not eggcrate) foam that is 3" to 8"
thick. I can't understand why is it so expensive. Any suggestions on
finding foam that is around 3" to 4" inches thick for wedge foam for around
$1.50 to $2.00 / sq foot? I need around 150 square feet.
thanks,
Scott
pscott...@hotmail.com
remove X1X
DanS
was at
http://www.markertek.com
$20US for 54"x54" eggcrate, and $3.99US for wedge 16x16x2
Junk <ju...@junk.com> wrote in message news:987i1t$h7q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Jerry Greenberg
required. You can go to a hardware store and pick up the type for construction
materials. But, it will never have the same sound effect...
Junk wrote:
--
Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
==============================================
WebPage <http://www.zoom-one.com>
Electronics <http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm>
Instruments <http://www.zoom-one.com/glgtech.htm>
==============================================
Porky Gark
And what about UV sensitivity and llilkihood of fading or deteriorating?
"Junk" <ju...@junk.com> wrote in message
news:987i1t$h7q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
DanS
on the outside of his house.
Porky Gark <ggil...@prsguitars.com> wrote in message
news:BQQp6.623$hm....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Richard D Pierce
DanS <stecko@videotron(no mess).ca> wrote:
>
>Porky Gark <ggil...@prsguitars.com> wrote in message
>news:BQQp6.623$hm....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>> Doesn't there also have to be some fire retardance too?
>> And what about UV sensitivity and llilkihood of fading or deteriorating?
>>
>Probably only an issue if he attacks it with a blow torch, after installing
>on the outside of his house.
Actually, not so. In one industry "standard" on flame
retardance, a sheet of foam is placed horizontally and a small,
flammable "pill" is placed in the center and ignited. And, sure
enough, it sits there a finzzles and does nothing.
Take the very same piece of foam, hang it on the wall, light it
with a single match at the bottom, and stand WAY back. I was a
witness to a test of a small concrete test room about 8x12'
which had several sheets on the several walls. The test was
started with a lit cigarette rolled against the foam on the
floor. It took about 5 minutes to get going. 2 minute later the
room almost exploded in a fireball, with the internal
temperature reaching some 1800 C. It was all over about 4
minutes after that, with the concrete test chamber suffering
some significant damage.
And this was the fire-retardent stuff!
The lesson was that used on walls, the stuff is extremely
flammable, and the industry tests do not reflect this.
(as a point of interest, one of the main constituents of
the fuel in the shuttle solid rocket motors is good ol'
polyurethane, pretty much the same composition as used
in foam. Add a good source of an oxidant, in this case
ammonium perchlorate, and you get a pretty whopping amount of
energy out of it).
--
| Dick Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| DPi...@world.std.com |
Noral Stewart
appropriate, less expensive and safer for your application? If you do need
foam, do you really need the wedges? There are several manufacturers of
flat acoustical foam for industrial applications whose products are less
expensive than the fancy wedges. I do not recommend use of polyurethane
foam for architectural applications such as the walls of buildings. Such
foam in such applications may kill noise, but it also can kill people.
--
Noral Stewart
www.stewartacousticalconsultants.com
Junk <ju...@junk.com> wrote in message news:987i1t$h7q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
greg
>Any leads on where to obtain a cost effective source of acoustic foam. I am
>finding $4 to $10 / sq foot for wedge (not eggcrate) foam that is 3" to 8"
>thick. I can't understand why is it so expensive. Any suggestions on
>finding foam that is around 3" to 4" inches thick for wedge foam for around
>$1.50 to $2.00 / sq foot? I need around 150 square feet.
Might describe what your doing. I get smaller chunks from fabric stores,
which frequently have it on sale in various sizes. This must come
from some industrial supply. Anything labeled acoustic is likely to
cost more. The kind which is effectively acoustic you are probably
familar with, and is basically the same used for pillows and furniture.
Flame retardancy, and life, are considerations. Foam exposed
to the elements, especially UV and polutants breaks down fairly
fast, into dust or becomes gummy. I could not locate any sources
with a quick search on the WEB, allthough some places offer cut to size
pieces.
greg
Stig Erik Tangen
Forget the wedges - any open-cell foam will do. The cheapest is
problably foam rubber mattresses (!)
Stig Erik Tangen
Desart Eric
Profiled foam is one of the most typical examples of acoustics as magic in stead
of physics.
The commercial sometimes (mis)used suggestion that there should be some
kind of a proportional relationship between the increased physical surface and
the amount of noise absorption is physically incorrect.
Profiling such a slab, will only have (positive) effect on the mid and higher
frequencies (relationship between wavelength and distance/height obstacles) in
order to compensate for less good acoustic properties as there are e.g. entrance
impedance and flow resistance.
Mostly the loss in low frequent absorption by cutting away valuable absorptive
material is much larger than the minor gain (only to compensate lesser acoustic
qualities) in the mid and high frequencies.
If one chooses for foam, one should do so for the aesthetics, the mechanical
properties if needed (can be important in highly vibrating circumstances),
mounting requirements and so on, but certainly not for the 'magic' acoustic
properties often wrongly assumed (I'm not saying that foam necessarily have to
be worse).
This indeed means that for normal architectural purposes, one is mostly better
of with mineral wool (glass or rock fibre), which acoustic properties almost
can't be improved (and if seen as broadbanded absorption, will often be better
than most types of foam, profiled or not, and by the self supporting properties
of mineral wool tiles often easier to apply in view of low to mid-frequent
absorption).
In view of fire properties, one of the best acoustic foams around is Malimine
harsen (harsen is Dutch word meaning resin???) and is pure white (produced by
BASF , I believe), in is even without any further treatment (from its own
nature) better than normal fire retarded polyurethane foams (esters and
ethers).
While knowing that lots of people will doubt what I'm saying, all of this is
based on careful supporting study (even when relatively generally formulated).
Some years ago I've done lots of systematic tests with truckloads of different
materials in co-operation with several companies, involving lots of people, in a
governmental certified University lab, respecting official measurement methods
in controlled comparable environment, in order to investigate different
traditional acoustic 'axiom's.
As such often the cheaper materials can give the better result or at least will
not be worse, and I certainly disagree with Jerry Greenberg about that.
--
Eric Desart
DESART acoustics
Diksmuidelaan 22
B 2600 ANTWERP (Berchem)
BELGIUM
Tel: +32-(0)3/281.14.97
Fax: +32-(0)3/272.41.50
Email: eric....@belgacom.net
Noral Stewart
firesafe but rarely used foam is Polyimide. It has a funny feel and makes a
distinctive sound if you rub across it.
I think much of the cost in acoustical foam is really marketing. Fiberglass
and mineral fiber products are sold in large quantities for thermal
insulation with relatively little extra marketing for acoustics. Acoustical
foams have a greater overhead in terms of testing and technical support for
the quantity sold. This is justified for cases where you really need a
foam. However, you then have some of the foams that also spend a lot of
money on advertising their image and supposed magic qualities.
Unfortunately, many people needing absorptive materials only see these adds
and think those products are their only choices.
--
Noral Stewart
www.stewartacousticalconsultants.com
Desart Eric <af...@belgacom.net> wrote in message
news:3aaa0234$0$609$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
Bob Cain
for my internet access for the next year or two. :-)
Would it be ok to quote you when this comes up other places?
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
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To feed a hungry kid today at the cost of a click follow this link:
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Angelo Campanella
>In article <988snj$nq7$1...@dns3.cae.ca>,
>retardance, a sheet of foam is placed horizontally and a small,
>flammable "pill" is placed in the center and ignited. And, sure
>enough, it sits there a finzzles and does nothing.
>Take the very same piece of foam, hang it on the wall, light it
>with a single match at the bottom, and stand WAY back. I was a
>witness to a test of a small concrete test room about 8x12'
>which had several sheets on the several walls. The test was
>started with a lit cigarette rolled against the foam on the
>floor. It took about 5 minutes to get going. 2 minute later the
>room almost exploded in a fireball, with the internal
How about melamine foam?
That material is reputed to have a long life in service, is more
difficult to burn, and the combustion products are not as harmful.
What are the fire-test results for melamine foam?
Ang. C.
----- A.Camp...@Worldnet.Att.Net ------
--- http://www.CampanellaAcoustics.Com ----
Desart Eric
I putted it on the net, so I can't stop you.
And I personally find that everybody, needing absorptive materials,
should know, so that they can base there choice on real physical based
arguments (which in lots of cases can be in favour of foam, but not
necessarily when purely based on acoustics).
But spreading this to much around, involves risks, certainly if you
don't have the related physical and/or acoustical background to prove
your point.
How should you react when somebody told you that you're a liar, since
most anechoic rooms are provided with absorptive wedges?
Your own reaction shows how much commercial interests are involved here
(and you're not alone).
I was hesitating myself to sent the message.
Even while knowing that I can physically prove my point, I shouldn't
like to get involved in legal disputes (costly, time and energy
consuming business).
Noral knew (could easily read it between the lines in his previous
massage), and a lot of experienced acousticians know, but without
scientific proof and backing and indisputable tests, they mostly
(rightfully) are very careful how to express themselves.
I used it often in Lectures (called Acoustics: Magic or Physics - note:
there are more of such deeply rooted ideas) in Belgium and the
Netherlands, and indeed had already foam producers and/or related sales
companies in the audience (not always fun, but you can't change
physics).
So if you use it, you do it on your own risk in order to decide if you
believe me or not (I'm not going to be involved in disputes you should
initiate).
Noral
What is Polyimide, who developed and/or produces this, where can I find
documentation, what about the price level?
Angelo
Melamine foam
Lots of producers of profiled foam those days, do include this foam
(profiled or not) in there sales program.
Density between 11 and 15 kg/mł (extreme low density, while comparable
compression properties with heavier polyurethane foams). There are
different types.
Colour: pure white (at least I never saw another one) from its own
nature (often sold with painted surface, or fabric/fibre covering)
Temperature resistance: -60 °C to 150 °C (short until 250 °C)
Not dripping when in fire.
Fire classes:
Belgium: A1 as per NBN S21,203
France: M1 as per CSTB (norm?)
UK: Class 0 as per BS 476 Part 6
Class 1 as per BS 276 Part 7
Germany: B1 as per DIN 4102 PA III 2.1998
Netherlands: Class 2 as per NEN 3883
Switzerland: V.3 as per VKF technical info 6843
Italy: Class 1 as per RF 2/75A and RF 3/77
Spain: Class M1 as per UNE 23727
USA Flame propagation 5
Gas density 65 as per ASTM E 84 (Steiner tunnel
test)
Due to good combination of fire properties , low weight, good noise
absorption and compression and elasticity properties, as somebody told
me, melamine foam is applied now in lots of aeroplane seatings.
Price level: industrial partners (of course depends) ca 150 $ /mł (ca
4.25 $/ footł) exc. Taxes.
Those fire classes are much better then normal fire retarding
polyurethane foams.
Complete enough?
Kind regards
Eric Desart
DESART acoustics
Diksmuidelaan 22
B 2600 ANTWERP (Berchem)
BELGIUM
Tel: +32-(0)3/281.14.97
Fax: +32-(0)3/272.41.50
Email: eric....@belgacom.net
"Bob Cain" <arc...@znet.com> schreef in bericht
news:3AAAEC9B...@znet.com...
Desart Eric
See www.illbruck.com (melamine is called there willtec)
US:
Flammability: Class 1 ASTM E 84
Flame spread 5 (natural foam); 10 painted foam
Smoke density 45 (natural foam); 10 painted foam
Found Sabines there for the baffles (SONEX) which I do not understand.
Eric
Noral Stewart
couple of weeks ago. My understanding is that it was developed as a result
of the Apollo space capsule disaster where a fire killed three astronauts.
When I first encountered it, the material was being marketed by the
International Harvester Corporation of all people. This is a US company
that built trucks and tractors, now known as Navistar. Now, I know that
Johns Manville is offering it as a alternative lining for ventilation ducts
under the name Polycoustic. It seems to be very light weight and all
samples I have seen have been yellow. I understand it is relatively
expensive, but I have no cost data.
--
Noral Stewart
www.stewartacousticalconsultants.com
Desart Eric <af...@belgacom.net> wrote in message
news:3aab6bfd$0$614$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
Brian Marston
Desart Eric wrote:
> Found some better info for US fire properties melamine
> See www.illbruck.com (melamine is called there willtec)
> Found Sabines there for the baffles (SONEX) which I do not understand.
The baffles are edge hung baffles (panels) with both sides and edges
exposed to the sound (about 18 square feet of exposed area). The Sabines
look like empirial sabines, not metric sabines.
Now folks was the testing done in x-hatch hanging pattern or parallel
hanging pattern and what was the panel spacing and layout ?? Will we
ever find out !
I'm getting to love these modern material that absorb up to 20% more
sound than you can throw at them :)
C J Dobson
Chris
Richard D Pierce <DPi...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:G9wFs...@world.std.com...
king...@gmail.com
> Any leads on where to obtain a cost effective source of acoustic foam. I am finding $4 to $10 / sq foot for wedge (not eggcrate) foam that is 3" to 8" thick. I can't understand why is it so expensive. Any suggestions on finding foam that is around 3" to 4" inches thick for wedge foam for around $1.50 to $2.00 / sq foot? I need around 150 square feet.thanks,Scottpsco...@hotmail.comremove X1X
You can buy cheapest acousti melamine foam from SINOYQX, since SINOYQX(www.sinoyqx.com) is the second largest melamine foam manufacturer and provider after BASF, so you can buy cheapest acousti melamine foam from manufacturer derictly, so the pricing will be cheapest in the market.
king...@gmail.com
king...@gmail.com
thekma...@gmail.com
My priorities regarding soundproofing foam:
#1. Flame retardent/resistant.
#2. Sound absorbtion.
Remember the Station!
'nuff said.
Dick Pierce
from getting in or out of an enclosed space (or, as it sometimes
referred to, reducing sound transmission)? If so, foam is pretty
terrible at that, especially at low frequencies.
--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+
gregz
> thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>> no mess: "Probably only an issue if he attacks it with a blow > torch,
>> after installing on the outside of his house."
>>> My priorities regarding soundproofing foam:
>>> #1. Flame retardent/resistant.
>>> #2. Sound absorbtion.
>>> Remember the Station!
>>> 'nuff said.
>
> What do you mean by "soundproofing? Do you mean preventing sound
> from getting in or out of an enclosed space (or, as it sometimes
> referred to, reducing sound transmission)? If so, foam is pretty
> terrible at that, especially at low frequencies.
showing how blow in cellulose is much better absorber of mid to high
frequencies compared to fiberglass. I'm installing doors downstairs, and
solid core is obviously best. I bought one plastic sided door. At a doctors
office using the same door, I heard everything going through. I'm thinking
of doing an experiment if I can determine how the spacers are laid out.
That's a workroom. I think I'll use heavier doors on bath, entertainment,
bedroom.
Greg