Help!!!!! New Quantigy Adat tape stuck in my LX20 ADAT (90 hours)
CPV
pro-tools....anyway, try holding down the eject button while
re-initializing....that helped......sometimes
Herby
Johnnypro <john...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991220200715...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
> Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I just got a case of Quantigy Adat 42 minute tapes. I took 2 out for
> formatting. Formatted them both, no problems. Popped them out, put labels
on
> them (spine and top) and put them on the shelf. 2 Hours later my partner
comes
> in and we're gonna record. I put in the 1st tape and I get an Error 02
message.
> Ok. I try and pop it out and it won't. I figure I only need one machine (8
> tracks) so I pop the other New, (but already formatted) Quantigy tape, and
that
> goes in, gives me 1st an Error 0 message, then and Error 02 message.
Neither
> machine will spit out the tapes.
>
> I called Alesis and got a Newbie, but helpful tech service guy who told me
to
> re-initialize the machines. While trying to initialize the 1st maching, I
> turned off and then on the 2nd as well, and it spit out the tape. I tried
that
> machine with an old tape, and it seems to be OK, (Whew!@!! I've got
another
> recording schedualed for tomorrow). But after initializing the 1st maching
> several times, and trying a few other things, the tape's still in there.
Any
> thoughts??? Any hints????
>
> I bought the Quantegy because Alesis says in their manual and on their
website
> to use it. The Tech Service guy told me they don't recommend it any more
and
> recommend BASF and Maxell instead. What do YOU guys recommend???
> HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! E-me!!!!! Thanx!!!! John Profeta
> PS: The manual says something about Labels causing problems. Is this
possible?
> Thanx!!!!!
>
> John...@aol.com aka John Profeta
>
Tonebarge
problem you describe is to fast forward the tape to the end before removing it.
All of my previous problems occured when the tape had been rewound before
ejecting.
Regards,
TB
Johnnypro
Garthrr
another. It didnt seem to happen with the 40 min version. But my best luck has
been with HHB tapes and fortunately they are 45 min instead of just 40 min.
Garth
"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
Mark107
transport. You will see a long white rod, running parallel to the side of the
unit. Grasp it between your thumb and first finger, and spin it. The machine
will slowly eject the tape.
Ampex/Quantigy is bad, but not for the reason you describe. They shed oxide
faster than anything else, and will result in your machine needing cleaning a
lot more. Maxell Black is standard fare here, it's cheap, and works fine.
More expensive "ADAT" tapes will not be better. I run a commercial studio with
lots of adats, all day long, for many years. I have bought at least 25 adats
over the years. Trust me on the tape recommendations!
Don't use 60 minute tapes at all. The tape is thinner. Enough said.
As far as all the error messages, your machine may need service. The transport
may be f**ked. As far as labels causing problems, highly doubtful.
So, eject the tape, and try again. If the tape gets stuck again, bring it in
for service. Good luck.
-Mark Dann
Jeff Mutschler
Gordon Waters
Garthrr <gar...@aol.com> wrote:
>I had a problem with my XT 20's eating BASF 60 min tapes. It was one after
>another. It didnt seem to happen with the 40 min version. But my best luck has
>been with HHB tapes and fortunately they are 45 min instead of just 40 min.
I've never had much of any luck with the reliability of ANY BASF tape in a
VHS/SVHS case, no matter what the purpose, so I'm not terribly surprised
by this...
In fact, we got so tired of the problems, that we basically banned the
use of any BASF video tapes in any VCRs (including AG-series Panasonics,
which, IIRC, have a similar transport to some of the ADAT decks) used as
copy/edit decks around here... and we haven't regretted it a bit...
Regards,
Gordon.
this seems to be a case where most anything else is better than that...
--
GALAXY convention --------- Anime Weekend Atlanta 5- October 8-10,1999
/| || //| // /| ,, //~// //~// //~// ----- Marriott Gwinnett Hotel
//|| ||//||// //|| ./ //_// //_// //_// --- http://www.anime.net/~awa
//~~|| |/ |/ //~~|| / ,,_// ,,_// ,,_// Gordon Waters-...@crl.com
ktone
mar...@aol.com writes:
>Okay. First off, put the top off the machine. Look to the right side of the
>transport. You will see a long white rod, running parallel to the side of the
>unit. Grasp it between your thumb and first finger, and spin it. The machine
>will slowly eject the tape.
Without checking the tape first, this is NOT wise advice. An LX20 is
probably still under warranty and if you were to damage something by
doing this you would be out of luck for future warranty service.
That said, you can extract the tape this way as long as the tape is back
in its shell. If you try to do this when the tape is still wrapped around
the headstack or some other transport post you could create a worse
problem. If you do have the tape wrapped around stuff you'd better take
it to the shop if you can't free it easily. If you're really in a pinch,
cutting the tape is an option if you have a really steady hand but by all
means keep away from the headstack cuz one scratch can do you in. If you
get the tape out safely it doesn't mean what caused the problem in first
place isn't still there. You can try another tape to see if it works but
I would only use an old worthless video tape in case it munches again
(but don't try and play or record on it). If it munches another - take it
in.
________________________________________________________________________
David L. King |kt...@nyetspamchitown.com..........
Chicago Psyberview-Music and Arts |http://www.chitown.com
Rhythm City - Dance/R&B |http://www.rhythm-city.com
_________________________________________________________________________
You know the routine... Remove NYETSPAM
Mark107
mar...@aol.com writes:
>Okay. First off, put the top off the machine. Look to the right side of the
>transport. You will see a long white rod, running parallel to the side of the
>unit. Grasp it between your thumb and first finger, and spin it. The
machine
>will slowly eject the tape.
Without checking the tape first, this is NOT wise advice. An LX20 is
probably still under warranty and if you were to damage something by
doing this you would be out of luck for future warranty service.
That said, you can extract the tape this way as long as the tape is back
in its shell. If you try to do this when the tape is still wrapped around
the headstack or some other transport post you could create a worse
problem. If you do have the tape wrapped around stuff you'd better take
it to the shop if you can't free it easily. If you're really in a pinch,
cutting the tape is an option if you have a really steady hand but by all
means keep away from the headstack cuz one scratch can do you in. If you
get the tape out safely it doesn't mean what caused the problem in first
place isn't still there. You can try another tape to see if it works but
I would only use an old worthless video tape in case it munches again
(but don't try and play or record on it). If it munches another - take it
in. >>
Yes, I agree with most of that.
If the tape is wrapped around the heads (or whatever), it is possible to free
it up, depending partly on the luck of how stuck it is to begin with. Assuming
that you can, you have the following possibilities:
1- You get it back into the shell enough to close the shell door, and you
do the white rod trick. Once out, try to wind the tape past the damaged part,
put it into ANOTHER machine, wind it to the top, and clone it right away.
2- The tape won't go back into the shell because there is TOO MUCH of it
to do so, but you do get it free. Solution: Cut (or break) off the cassette
shell door. The tape CANNOT eject without the door closing, so if the tape
won't go back inside, what is more valuable to you, the shell or the music in
the shell? I thought so. Once out, wind to top, clone...
3- The tape won't go back, and it's wrapped, and not going to become
unwrapped. If if in the middle of a song, you might well be out of luck. If
not, cut the tape. The door can stay in this case. Eject. Open the shell
(screws, one hopes, if riveted, promise yourself you will never buy that brand
again). Splice the tape NEATLY, so that there is NO CHANCE of any splicing
tape contacting the heads. Clone off.
Most causes of this sort of thing is the tape tension failing due to worn out
rubber parts. Sometimes other things, but usually when I hear this story, it's
about some machine that doesn't get maintenance. New idler wheels and pinch
roller every 500 hours folks, maybe more if you use Ampex/Quantigy, lol. You
check your oil in your car, right? Anyone who can't or won't treat these
machines with the maintenance they need and deserve, will see this sort of
thing eventually.
Once you get the tape out, do not assume that the machine is safe. It probably
isn't. Check the rubber parts. If they feel smooth, they are dirty or shot.
Or both. Get the Alesis video, and learn how to clean a video transport. It's
not hard, and will be more than worth it!
-Mark Dann
Johnnypro
pressing eject" trick and the tape popped out. There was still tape in the
machine, tho. I pulled on it real gently and it did come out (It was broken). I
tried another tape, which had just worked fine in my other machine, and it
loaded and unloaded fine, but was giving me tons of error messages right from
the start. Soooooooo, it's all boxed up and on it's way to the local (120
miles!!!) Alesis factory auth service ctr. I'm gonna return the remaining
Quantegy tapes I just bought, and get either BASF or Maxel. I know a few of you
mentioned about maintenance and such, but this is a new machine (4 Mos) with
less than 90 hours on it. I don't think it's ready for a thorough cleaning yet.
Luckily, (???), this happened on New tape at the start of a session, so NO
music was lost. Boy am I edgy about putting a recorded tape in my other ADAT
now!!!!!! I never had bproblems like this with my Fostex G16S. JP
John...@aol.com aka John Profeta
syna...@pathcom.com
> As far as labels causing problems, highly doubtful.
I think what they're referring to is when labels start to peel off the
surface of the tapes (especially the one on top of the tape, as
opposed to the spine), and stick to part of the macinhe's 'innards'.
I've seen this happen, and it _can_ be a problem, as you can imagine.
J.
----------------------------------
Synaptic Gap Productions
Toronto, Ontario
(416) 410 - 6595
syna...@pathcom.com
----------------------------------
Larry Lessard
Step 2: Throw ADAT into trash barrel
Step 3; Thank God you didn't start your project yet.
Step 4: Buy professional digital or analog multitrack.
Step 5: Do recording project
Step 6 Avoid buying toys diguised as tools in the future
--
• • • • • • • • • • • •
Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
"A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
http://www.proaudiodesign.com • http://www.UsedSSL.com
phone: 781-982-2600 ext.605 fax: 781-982-2610
Kevin Labrie
are suck a fucking
great person.
"Larry Lessard" <la...@proaudiodesign.com> wrote in message
news:388E1385...@proaudiodesign.com...
> Step 1 : Open Trash barrel
> Step 2: Throw ADAT into trash barrel
> Step 3; Thank God you didn't start your project yet.
> Step 4: Buy professional digital or analog multitrack.
> Step 5: Do recording project
> Step 6 Avoid buying toys diguised as tools in the future
> --
> . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
> Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
> Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
> "A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
> http://www.proaudiodesign.com . http://www.UsedSSL.com
mojo
Larry Lessard
I'm not sure how this relates to reality.
You can get a professional digital recorder for not too much more than
an ADAT.
5K. - 25K. is the range.
What is the price of 3 ADAT's , interfaces, 24 good converters, etc.???
How much is your studio's reputation worth when the ADAT eats the
project?
I did one session on an ADAT. I won't do another one.
They are a toy, not a professional machine.
Sorry if you take it personal.
Gee, you would think I was talking about NS-10's or something! - I
thought everyone knew that ADATs suck!
--
• • • • • • • • • • • •
Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
"A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
http://www.proaudiodesign.com • http://www.UsedSSL.com
john moran
<la...@proaudiodesign.com> wrote, in part :
> What is the price of 3 ADAT's , interfaces, 24 good converters, etc.???
>
> How much is your studio's reputation worth when the ADAT eats the
> project?
<lurk mode set (-) >
We might have a real answer to that in the not too distant future. I have
a letter from an entertainment attorney who is gathering information
regarding lost projects and related dollars lost due to adat destroyed
recordings. I imagine he is building a class action suit, he is quite
serious and is looking for documented losses due to Alesis ADAT machines.
I could post his information here if so desired, or contact me off list.
I'm not betting either way on the outcome of any legal action, but it does
have entertainment potential and may be quite interesting to watch. <vbg>.
Yes, adats are junk and I dont care what alanis or anyone else has done
with them. Good equipment is not celebrated when it works properly, that
is the expected day in and day out performance for professional
equipment. We have two of the Panasonic variety adat and a BRC so we can
transfer incoming tapes to something else (2" MTR-90II, DA-88/38 or 3324)
immediately upon arrival. That is all they are used for and they are
still more unreliable than any other machine in the place. As a side
note, I'm not knocked out with Quantegy tape either, but that is an
entirely different discussion.
Caveat Emptor.
jm
<lurk mode set (+) >
--
John Moran / Digital Services Recording Studios
SSL Mixing/Sonic Solutions Mastering/Remote Truck in Houston, Texas
"Loose with the truth now baby, it's your fire,
Baby, I hope you don't get burned."
Althea - The Grateful Dead
Tonebarge
and a good one at that. I've got four with thousands of hours on them and
they have never eaten a tape. They've netted many happy customers and
lots of repeat business.
Also, if you've only ever done one session on them it hardly qualifies you
as an expert.
TB
Larry Lessard wrote:
> $75,000???
> I'm not sure how this relates to reality.
> You can get a professional digital recorder for not too much more than
> an ADAT.
> 5K. - 25K. is the range.
>
> What is the price of 3 ADAT's , interfaces, 24 good converters, etc.???
>
> How much is your studio's reputation worth when the ADAT eats the
> project?
>
Tonebarge
make comments like this? Does Dave know that you are posting this kind
of stuff with his business name in your sig file? Are you still taking
your medication? Questions, questions...
TB
P.S. Your name through a spell checker comes up with "lesser." Hmmmm.
Larry Lessard wrote:
> Step 1 : Open Trash barrel
> Step 2: Throw ADAT into trash barrel
> Step 3; Thank God you didn't start your project yet.
> Step 4: Buy professional digital or analog multitrack.
> Step 5: Do recording project
> Step 6 Avoid buying toys diguised as tools in the future
Fletcher
>
> A conundrum. How is it that you list ADATs for sale where you work but
> make comments like this? Does Dave know that you are posting this kind
> of stuff with his business name in your sig file? Are you still taking
> your medication? Questions, questions...
>
> TB
TB- Not to break your balls...but I find it refreshing when a sales
weasel breaks from the party line and speaks his mind. We have stuff at
our place I've spent a considerable amount of time talking clients out
of buying...usually because it wasn't the right thing for their
application, but sometimes because the unit just sucked. Every now and
again, especially when dealing with used gear, you end up with something
in a package that totally chokes the chicken and there's nothing you can
do about it. Such is the nature of the beast.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
Fletcher
>
> If one is using outboard converters the ADATs are just a storage medium,
> and a good one at that. I've got four with thousands of hours on them and
> they have never eaten a tape. They've netted many happy customers and
> lots of repeat business.
>
> Also, if you've only ever done one session on them it hardly qualifies you
> as an expert.
>
> TB
I dunno, I'm working on a project that is employing 3 of the
fuckers...they have a BRC [I'm afraid of it...it changes location
numbers at it's own discretion], and 3 of the gun metal grey adats [I
call the "Curly", "Shemp" & "Little Joe"]. Those motherfuckers can take
up to 10 seconds to lock, and give arbitrary, unrepeatable error
messages all the time.
I brought my own converters and front end...but after about the third
session I refused to run the machines. I'll get the sound, do a
balance, whatever they want...just won't run those things...from what I
understand, at the end of every session, they back up every tape we
overdubed on...and have spares of everything.
Other than having shitty converters, unreliable transports, and the very
real potential for eating master tapes...they're a remarkable feat of
engineering...
Tonebarge
ADAT trenches.
a. Lose the BRC and use the LRC
b. Always ff your tapes before removing them (tails out)
c. Wait for the little buggers to all stop before hitting play.
Most of the synch problems will evaporate. Same with eaten tapes. I've seen
engineers pre-roll up to three minutes trying to get the fuckers to sync using
the BRC. With the LRC they don't get confused as easily for some reason (Jacox
would, I'm sure, know more about that one). One thing the BRC will get you is
more billable hours. <g>
Don't misunderstand, I'm +not+ an ADAT advocate. As far as I'm concerned all
the formats out there suck viciously. We ain't there yet, no matter what's in
the rack.
TB
Tonebarge
condescending answer. The person had a tape stuck. Telling him to throw
the deck away seemed ludicrous. I used to keep a journal of the fun things
that ATR-124s would do when different components failed and even when they
didn't fail. Remember the "auto align?" I ran a herd of those things for a
few years and I don't miss them. Throwing the decks away sure seemed viable
to me. Every machine I've ever used, to the best of my memory (which ain't
too fucking great these days), had its own personality and foibles. To me
it's always been a matter of figuring out how to address the problem and
carry on without the client being aware that there's a problem.
Analog works on some stuff and digital on others. Don't like either,
myself.
TB hobbles away licking his bruised balls. <g>
TB
Fletcher wrote:
> Tonebarge wrote:
> >
> > A conundrum. How is it that you list ADATs for sale where you work but
> > make comments like this? Does Dave know that you are posting this kind
> > of stuff with his business name in your sig file? Are you still taking
> > your medication? Questions, questions...
> >
> > TB
>
> TB- Not to break your balls...but I find it refreshing when a sales
> weasel breaks from the party line and speaks his mind. We have stuff at
> our place I've spent a considerable amount of time talking clients out
> of buying...usually because it wasn't the right thing for their
> application, but sometimes because the unit just sucked. Every now and
> again, especially when dealing with used gear, you end up with something
> in a package that totally chokes the chicken and there's nothing you can
> do about it. Such is the nature of the beast.
Stan Jacox
john moran <stu...@digisrvs.com> wrote in message
news:studio-2501002007330001@216-118-> > How much is your studio's
reputation worth when the ADAT eats the
> > project?
>
>
> We might have a real answer to that in the not too distant future. I have
> a letter from an entertainment attorney who is gathering information
> regarding lost projects and related dollars lost due to adat destroyed
> recordings. I imagine he is building a class action suit, he is quite
> serious and is looking for documented losses due to Alesis ADAT machines.
>
> I could post his information here if so desired, or contact me off list.
> I'm not betting either way on the outcome of any legal action, but it does
> have entertainment potential and may be quite interesting to watch. <vbg>.
>
> Yes, adats are junk and I dont care what alanis or anyone else has done
> with them. Good equipment is not celebrated when it works properly, that
> is the expected day in and day out performance for professional
> equipment. We have two of the Panasonic variety adat and a BRC so we can
> transfer incoming tapes to something else (2" MTR-90II, DA-88/38 or 3324)
> immediately upon arrival. That is all they are used for and they are
> still more unreliable than any other machine in the place. As a side
> note, I'm not knocked out with Quantegy tape either, but that is an
> entirely different discussion.
>
> Caveat Emptor.
>
> jm
I've heard of lame law suits before but the people believing this sort of
garbage will have to be very gullible. If there is a poor reliability issue
with a studio it is almost never the equipment design but rather poor or
inappropriate maintenance. The top studios got that way not because they had
the most expensive equipment but because they did the little things that
kept the whole studio working as an efficient unit. That takes a commitment
of money and resources. I can guarantee that those decks that eat tapes have
not been serviced according to the recommended schedule. You would look
pretty silly taking such a case to court when the first item of discovery
would be the maintenance logs that prove you abused the decks. What, you
say you have 1,500 hours since proper maintenance was done but it was a
total surprise that is suddenly failed? Is there any deck that can be
ignored for 1,500 hours?. A good studio would instantly fire the maintenance
staff that claimed it was a design fault that was the cause of a failure
instead of improper maintenance. I hear stories every day about how this
deck or that deck ruined a project and that the decks got regular
maintenance. When we finally see these problem decks after they have been
molested by who ever read the latest article in a magazine or heard the
latest rumor about self maintenance tips, we see that the problem is usually
made worse by ignorance and over confidence of the inexperienced studio
staff or end user. Opening up a box and cleaning a head is not the limit of
proper maintenance. As with anything else the system needs to be understood
by the maintenance staff but less than one 1 in a thousand owners bothers to
go to the maintenance school, or even buy the service manual. Alesis has
sold fewer than 200 alignment tapes in 7 years ( and most of those were
replacements for worn out alignment tapes)! And just about as few manuals.
Those required service aids were obviously not being purchased by many of
the owners of the 100,000 ADATs in use. Only a few dozen owners have
bothered to attend the maintenance schools. Obviously there is a lot more
blame and a lot less interest in knowing. There is so much misinformation
and rumor that passes as knowledge that I'm amazed that any of these decks
work. The truth is that a proper maintenance schedule implemented by a
knowledgeable staff creates a reliable studio whether it is running ADATs or
Studers or what ever. You say you don't have time to learn your craft, well
you certainly seem to have time to stay in the bush leagues.
If you are blaming the tools for improper performance, when others are
getting normal performance, it is more a reflection on the studio than on
the equipment. The mirror is the most likely place to see the source of the
problem.
--
Stan Jacox
Studio Maintenance Center
1-800-918-3300
http://www.studio-maint.com
Tonebarge
TB
Kevin Labrie
thought you were talking about a 1" reel-to-reel digital machine, or a
Otari/Studer 2".
i don't actually own an ADAT, but i am sick of seeing people come in with
simple questions and have snooty people tell them all their gear sucks and
they should buy a Neve Console, a few Nuemann Tube Mic's, and a Studer 2"
for the small project studio.
Didn't mean to jump down your throat. Bad day i geuss.
"Larry Lessard" <la...@proaudiodesign.com> wrote in message
news:388E4CF6...@proaudiodesign.com...
> $75,000???
> I'm not sure how this relates to reality.
> You can get a professional digital recorder for not too much more than
> an ADAT.
> 5K. - 25K. is the range.
>
> What is the price of 3 ADAT's , interfaces, 24 good converters, etc.???
>
> How much is your studio's reputation worth when the ADAT eats the
> project?
>
> I did one session on an ADAT. I won't do another one.
> They are a toy, not a professional machine.
>
> Sorry if you take it personal.
> Gee, you would think I was talking about NS-10's or something! - I
> thought everyone knew that ADATs suck!
>
> --
> . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
> Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
> Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
> "A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
> http://www.proaudiodesign.com . http://www.UsedSSL.com
Scott Dorsey
>what digital recorders are you talking about? The DA88's are no better. I
>thought you were talking about a 1" reel-to-reel digital machine, or a
>Otari/Studer 2".
Actually, my experiences with the DA88 have been a lot better. The DA88
is not as reliable as a DASH machine but they do seem to hold up surprisingly
well on the road. Not well enough that I'd want to run one without a
spare, mind you.
And it's true that there are a variety of ADAT-format transports, and some
are known to be extremely flaky, while some are much less so.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
mojo
A scientific approach, and the anecdotal/hyperbole approach are very
different. I am glad that someone takes a scientific one, again.
If someone wanted to be lawyerish and classically acting, the ADAT/Edit
package maybe a better place to start. I have gotten the card to work now,
but I use none of their software, it is frankly unuseable on my machine ( a
good P3), whereas Foundry stuff is VERY stable head to head. It really was a
dissapointment. Hundreds of bucks later I am getting work done with the
foundry stuff.
hank alrich
> you end up with something
> in a package that totally chokes the chicken and there's nothing you can
> do about it
No broiler?
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
hank alrich
> Is there any deck that can be
> ignored for 1,500 hours?.
Bicycle, with only one Joker.
Greg Heimbecker
Denver as Denton is to Dallas in very many ways, Harvey and I share very
similar markets). A friend of mine put it best in describing the behavior of
Adats... "They really just want to play a movie". But the reality of day to
day operation in 4 years has been each of four decks has been serviced about
three times and about 6 tapes have gotten munched requiring two songs in 4
years I had to re-record. That doesn't even begin to compare with the upkeep on
a 2" machine now does it?
Does it sound as big as 2"? NO! Have I managed to make good sounding
recordings? yes And best of all the little folks out here in the middle of
nowhere can afford to do projects that they are happy with. May not work in the
big leagues but that's not where we're at. (Never mind that the big leagues
don't quite know where they're at any more either, but that's several other
stories now isn't it?)
70% of what we do now is in what Fletcher likes to term "Pro Fools" which
happens to work quite nicely for classical and jazz projects sonically and may
not be quite as satisfying as 2" for guitar based rock projects but still works
well if the sounds going in are good. It also allows us to make more convincing
results from young/inexperienced "artists" with the least waste of our time &
their money... it's efficient. Older artists that haven't recorded in years are
amazed and delighted with what can be done with ease AND with the quality they
hear from it.
We are in an interesting transition period in our industry as the record biz
buckles under it's meglomaniacal delusions and the growing indifference of
consumers to 2 track audio product. It just ain't the shiny bauble that it once
was... This newsgroup reflects the growing decentralization of production
facilities (for better & worse) along with difficulty of top flight facilities
competing with us bottom feeders for work. Good tools are less expensive than
ever, great tools are still expensive and there are tons of crap for very
little cost that delude Joe Blow into thinking he's really "doin it".
It's going to be an interesting decade unfolding around us isn't it boys and
girls?
With no coasts in sight at all,
Greg Heimbecker
University of Northern Colorado Recording Studio
ps. at least we're not turning out any recording students into the world <weg>
(practicing educational contraception along the front range)
Fletcher wrote:
> Tonebarge wrote:
> >
> > If one is using outboard converters the ADATs are just a storage medium,
> > and a good one at that. I've got four with thousands of hours on them and
> > they have never eaten a tape. They've netted many happy customers and
> > lots of repeat business.
> >
> > Also, if you've only ever done one session on them it hardly qualifies you
> > as an expert.
> >
> > TB
>
> I dunno, I'm working on a project that is employing 3 of the
> fuckers...they have a BRC [I'm afraid of it...it changes location
> numbers at it's own discretion], and 3 of the gun metal grey adats [I
> call the "Curly", "Shemp" & "Little Joe"]. Those motherfuckers can take
> up to 10 seconds to lock, and give arbitrary, unrepeatable error
> messages all the time.
>
> I brought my own converters and front end...but after about the third
> session I refused to run the machines. I'll get the sound, do a
> balance, whatever they want...just won't run those things...from what I
> understand, at the end of every session, they back up every tape we
> overdubed on...and have spares of everything.
>
> Other than having shitty converters, unreliable transports, and the very
> real potential for eating master tapes...they're a remarkable feat of
> engineering...
Particle Salad
Step 2: Display arrogance, attitude, and lack of tact
Step 3: Realize it's the quality of the engineer, not the quality of
the tools that is most important.
Larry Lessard wrote:
> Step 1 : Open Trash barrel
> Step 2: Throw ADAT into trash barrel
> Step 3; Thank God you didn't start your project yet.
> Step 4: Buy professional digital or analog multitrack.
> Step 5: Do recording project
> Step 6 Avoid buying toys diguised as tools in the future
> --
> • • • • • • • • • • • •
> Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
> Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
> Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
> "A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
> http://www.proaudiodesign.com • http://www.UsedSSL.com
> phone: 781-982-2600 ext.605 fax: 781-982-2610
--
-Mark
--
~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^
Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio
http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad
mp3 songs:
http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad
~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^
Angelo Quaglia
wrote:
>Then I will pass on three little tricks that I have learned from years in the
>ADAT trenches.
>a. Lose the BRC and use the LRC
>b. Always ff your tapes before removing them (tails out)
>c. Wait for the little buggers to all stop before hitting play.
>Most of the synch problems will evaporate. Same with eaten tapes. I've seen
>engineers pre-roll up to three minutes trying to get the fuckers to sync using
>the BRC. With the LRC they don't get confused as easily for some reason (Jacox
>would, I'm sure, know more about that one). One thing the BRC will get you is
>more billable hours. <g>
>Don't misunderstand, I'm +not+ an ADAT advocate. As far as I'm concerned all
>the formats out there suck viciously. We ain't there yet, no matter what's in
>the rack.
>TB
A lot of the brc functions really do save a lot of time in the
trenches. There are things that still aren't even possible without
it.
I've never had that many problems with the brc. (Not that I don't
have problems, just not usually attributable to the brc.) Is your
firmware up to date? Are your sync cables short and solidly shielded?
Have you already gone through this with a toothpick?
-
Back to the original post: somebody here mentioned not liking
quantegy tapes for adat. I would second that, with the addition of
most emphatically stating that quantegy adat tapes are the worst
non-consumer brand tapes you could possibly put in an adat. I buy HHB
and basf and sometimes maxell, and am much happier than when I was
getting ampex/quantegy/adat brand tapes. (But I still don't endorse
those brands... ahem... anyone from HHB or basf read this thing?)
-
To the guy with the lawyer who's gonna embarass the shit out of
himself:
Alesis has always called the ADAT "pro-sumer". They never claimed it
was all "pro" machinery. You will not have a leg to stand on in
court.
-
And in response to fletcher:
>> Other than having shitty converters, unreliable transports, and the very
>> real potential for eating master tapes...they're a remarkable feat of
>> engineering...
>> --
>> Fletcher
Classic. This one's going up on the wall. :)
--
Angelo Quaglia
AQ Productions
Angelo Quaglia
wrote:
>Analog works on some stuff and digital on others. Don't like either,
>myself.
*scratches head and walks away mumbling with a blank look on his
face...*
Larry Lessard
Particle Salad wrote:
>
> Step 3: Realize it's the quality of the engineer, not the quality of
> the tools that is most important.
Well every time an ADAT fails to lock up , the session gets delayed and
the client gets mad making the engineer look bad even though it is caused
only by the lack of quality of the gear being used.
Every time an ADAT eats a tape, great takes are lost, clients are pissed
off and the studio gets a bad reputation. And its no fault of the
engineer.
The client will leave saying "that studio sucked" not "that ADAT sucked"
Or is it common practice with ADATs to make back ups after each take?
Maybe the engineer is to blame for not making 3 backups after every take
and the studio's fault for not having the machines serviced after every
session.
Larry Lessard
Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> Actually, my experiences with the DA88 have been a lot better. The DA88
> is not as reliable as a DASH machine but they do seem to hold up surprisingly
> well on the road. Not well enough that I'd want to run one without a
> spare, mind you.
Most people I talk to seem to agree that the DA-88's are more reliable but I still
wouln't trust doing an important recording on any of those type machines. It makes
me feel bad to tell people that the
• • • • • • • • • • • •
john moran
ang...@spamout.advanix.net wrote, in part:
>
> Back to the original post: somebody here mentioned not liking
> quantegy tapes for adat. I would second that, with the addition of
> most emphatically stating that quantegy adat tapes are the worst
> non-consumer brand tapes you could possibly put in an adat. I buy HHB
> and basf and sometimes maxell, and am much happier than when I was
> getting ampex/quantegy/adat brand tapes.
That was me, and all my comments are based upon thousands of hours living
with all these machines and tapes. Quantegy digital tapes are
consistently unreliable in our experience. We like the BASF 900 2" and
1/2" for analog after the untimely demise of 3M, and BASF 1/2" digital for
the Sony DASH mashines, with Sony 8mm tape for the DA88/78/38. We avoid
using the adats except playback for transfers, but if forced to record on
them, we use the BASF vhs tape specifically for them. Tape problems for us
are rare to non-existent at this point.
> To the guy with the lawyer who's gonna embarass the shit out of
> himself:
> Alesis has always called the ADAT "pro-sumer". They never claimed it
> was all "pro" machinery. You will not have a leg to stand on in
> court.
That was me again. Hmmm, I didn't know that claiming something to be a
"pro-sumer" product legally alleviates all manufacturers product liability
issues, I'll have to remember that. <LOL>
I received the letter the same day I read this thread, and thought it
would add to the ongoing conversation here. It came unsolicited from the
attorney as a mass mailing on his part; as I stated in my original post, I
wouldn't bet either way on the outcome of any possible litigation or
settlement; I look at it solely as great entertainment. I'm not a party
to the case in any manner whatsoever except as a bemused bystander. If
anyone wants to get involved in it, I'll give you the information to
contact the lawyer. I think it's pretty interesting that there is a bad
enough track record for someone to take a run at alesis. There is, of
course, the Ampex 456 master tape shedding debacle as precedent for
manufacturers liability issues in the audio industry, so who knows what's
going to happen. When the Stevie Wonder catalogue started to
self-destruct on the shelf, things got pretty interesting between Ampex
and Stevie's camp and it ended up spreading across the industry. There
may be some similarities here, I dont know, but it will be interesting to
see if it developes.
I will say this : Handling tapes in every major tape format, analog and
digital, with clients great and small coming here to track and mix for
almost 20 years, we have seen more problems with adat than all of our
other multitrack tape machines combined. That is 15 different multitracks
in 5 different multitrack tape formats. 2 of those 15 machines are
adat/BRC and they are the biggest headache by far. Maintainence is not
the issue, poor design is issue. Fletcher said what has been said many
times :
>
> And in response to fletcher:
> >> Other than having shitty converters, unreliable transports, and the very
> >> real potential for eating master tapes...they're a remarkable feat of
> >> engineering...
> >> --
> >> Fletcher
>
> Classic. This one's going up on the wall. :)
>
> --
> Angelo Quaglia
regards
jm
Stan Jacox
Mark McQuilken <ma...@fmraudio.com> wrote in message
news:388F9E...@fmraudio.com...
> Mark Fassett wrote:
>
And, if the reports from ex-Alesisites (and current ones) are
> correct, an approximate 30% of the product delivered to the field is
> returned for non-maintenance type service (I myself had to return one of
> my first three to have a head replaced after 60 hours of use--it was
> DOA; then there's the one that ate a master tape right out of the box
> and the XT20s that would glitch with loud pops when losing SMPTE and the
> one that we couldn't get to sync to the 2" and...)...that makes it JUNK
> (actually SHIT) in my book.
I've been proposing that any deck be checked and commissioned before placed
into service. Any deck will be in a less than optimum alignment after being
played warehouse football with . Any reel to reel is subjected to
commissioning alignment and check out. The service department of your dealer
would have found the problems and corrected them in a few minutes for which
Alesis pays for. The 30% figure you claim just shows a bias that does not
reflect reality. A wise recordist would borrow the habits of the larger
studios which, of course, would check and verify any relevant performance
before committing a client's project to an unknown piece of equipment. I
guess because they are so inexpensive most people think ADATs don't deserve
to be treated with the same service and installation regard as a $65K tape
deck. That is inviting problems that the client does not deserve. When a
deck is determined to have survived the shipping and warehouse abuse the
deck will probably not require any more looking after for months, or about
1,000 hours of operation, as the vast majority of owners experiences
indicate.
This is what this class-action suit is
> about...that Alesis has knowingly released a product--originally marked
> and intended for use by people who make money from using such
> things--that had (has?) and yet they
> failed to alert people to this "nuance" (marketing feature?).
>
> Frankly, I don't think purchase price has ANYTHING to do with a tool's
> professional application. So, to blame folks for buying the Alesis sales
> crap for their own woes because of the $2k price tag, IMHO, fails to
> give Alesis their share of the responsibility...
If people who take care of them generally don't have problems and people who
disregard them frequently do have problems, it does not indicate that Alesis
created a product with "a high probability of failure"
I know I never allowed client engineer and producers use any equipment until
we had checked it our satisfaction. I still do that whether it is a piece of
test equipment or a new little compressor. As it turned out I bought one of
your compressors at Bananas at large as a gift for a girlfriend. I checked
it out and it was dead, a dead power supply, which I replaced from my stock
and sent it on it's way. A long chain of incontinence was averted by simply
checking the performance of a new piece of equipment.
What ever happened to you ADATs was solvable in a few minutes by your
dealer's service department that would have made sure that the deck passed
all QC tests and alignment verifications. There is a long list of QC tests
that the deck passed when it left the factory and the store would have
verified all the same QC tests. Those few minutes would have saved
frustration and time.
hank alrich
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, my experiences with the DA88 have been a lot better. The DA88
> > is not as reliable as a DASH machine but they do seem to hold up
> > surprisingly well on the road. Not well enough that I'd want to run one
> > without a spare, mind you.
>
> Most people I talk to seem to agree that the DA-88's are more reliable but
> I still wouln't trust doing an important recording on any of those type
> machines. It makes me feel bad to tell people that the
In fairness, shit happens. Spyro Gyra made their first album over a
period of time. When nearly done they threw it onto an MCI 2" machine,
whcih promptly fucked up the tape due to a transport failure. For a long
time thereafter Jay insisted on Studers. Nobody knows what's going to
happen next and some folks have had decent luck with their ADATs. Others
have returned them in frustration and gone to different machines. I
chose the DA88 because it runs a tape long enough to catch a whole set.
hank alrich
> Frankly, I don't think purchase price has ANYTHING to do with a tool's
> professional application.
Maroon Panky, you probably think a decent compressor can be had for
under two hundred bucks...or a hunnerd 'n' a half and some Chuy's.
> So, to blame folks for buying the Alesis sales
> crap for their own woes because of the $2k price tag, IMHO, fails to
> give Alesis their share of the responsibility...
On one hand I agree; on the other hand I can't imagine that if anybody
attempts to get most contemporary manufacturers to toe the line of truth
in their hype, the world will keep spinning. But, yeah, I still have the
"hype" sheet for my old A80 and it is a model of straightforward
representation of a product. It describes the equipment and the
capabilities and specifications thereof. The only boast is that Studer
had sold 100 machines worldwide. Makes me feel ancient. And now Studer
belongs to Harman and makes ADATs. I tried to kill myself but I used an
Alesis pistol and it didn't go off.
Tonebarge
TB
Mark Fassett
gear in the true sense of the word... it's certainly true that they aren't
reliable enough to use in a high profile commercial studio day in or day out
as the only recording medium. It also seems like they addressed this with
the Studer and M-20 versions, but I haven't worked with either personally.
BUT.... I just get a little tired of hearing how they are 'junk'.. they're
not. Any medium because plenty of people have recorded decent sounding
music on them. They have their purpose.
If you're using a $2k recorder in your commercial for hire studio, I don't
have much sympathy for you.. just as I don't have much sympathy for those
who try and run full time studio businesses on DAW/Sequencer apps like
Cubase or Logic or whatever. Use the right tool for the right job...
Now.. you could argue
Larry Lessard wrote:
> Particle Salad wrote:
>
> >
> > Step 3: Realize it's the quality of the engineer, not the quality of
> > the tools that is most important.
>
> Well every time an ADAT fails to lock up , the session gets delayed and
> the client gets mad making the engineer look bad even though it is caused
> only by the lack of quality of the gear being used.
> Every time an ADAT eats a tape, great takes are lost, clients are pissed
> off and the studio gets a bad reputation. And its no fault of the
> engineer.
> The client will leave saying "that studio sucked" not "that ADAT sucked"
>
> Or is it common practice with ADATs to make back ups after each take?
> Maybe the engineer is to blame for not making 3 backups after every take
> and the studio's fault for not having the machines serviced after every
> session.
>
> Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
> Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
> Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
> "A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
> http://www.proaudiodesign.com • http://www.UsedSSL.com
> phone: 781-982-2600 ext.605 fax: 781-982-2610
--
Mark Fassett
Mark McQuilken
>
> See, I don't think anyone claims that ADAT XT or Adat original are 'pro'
> gear in the true sense of the word... it's certainly true that they aren't
> reliable enough to use in a high profile commercial studio day in or day out
> as the only recording medium. It also seems like they addressed this with
> the Studer and M-20 versions, but I haven't worked with either personally.
>
> BUT.... I just get a little tired of hearing how they are 'junk'.. they're
> not. Any medium because plenty of people have recorded decent sounding
> music on them. They have their purpose.
>
> If you're using a $2k recorder in your commercial for hire studio, I don't
> have much sympathy for you.. just as I don't have much sympathy for those
> who try and run full time studio businesses on DAW/Sequencer apps like
> Cubase or Logic or whatever. Use the right tool for the right job...
>
> Now.. you could argue
>
Mark:
I agree with some of what you're saying, *BUT* Alesis /was/ marketing
the thing as a "pro" recorder (check the front of the black face ADATs
where it says "8 track PROFESSIONAL digital audio recorder"; check the
early ADAT adverts about all the "pros" who are using them to make their
albums!). And, if the reports from ex-Alesisites (and current ones) are
correct, an approximate 30% of the product delivered to the field is
returned for non-maintenance type service (I myself had to return one of
my first three to have a head replaced after 60 hours of use--it was
DOA; then there's the one that ate a master tape right out of the box
and the XT20s that would glitch with loud pops when losing SMPTE and the
one that we couldn't get to sync to the 2" and...)...that makes it JUNK
(actually SHIT) in my book. This is what this class-action suit is
about...that Alesis has knowingly released a product--originally marked
and intended for use by people who make money from using such
things--that had (has?) a high probability of failure and yet they
failed to alert people to this "nuance" (marketing feature?).
Frankly, I don't think purchase price has ANYTHING to do with a tool's
professional application. So, to blame folks for buying the Alesis sales
crap for their own woes because of the $2k price tag, IMHO, fails to
give Alesis their share of the responsibility...
Cheers,
McQ
__
Mark McQuilken
FMR Audio
www.fmraudio.com
(800)343-9976 - US Only
(512)280-6557 Voice
(512)280-8627 Fax
Angelo Quaglia
One time I was in a session
thaoljyrw[03oiwj40u8oiWJEHGR89AURPOHJIGZDFGPO8AWEYU40T238
4YLIHJ[WE40R9GH;OAIRHDHJ;OAIJDRHIOJZDR%@^&(&*!*&!%(*%@*(&&&^&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&.......
On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:06:25 -0500, Larry Lessard
<la...@proaudiodesign.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Actually, my experiences with the DA88 have been a lot better. The DA88
>> is not as reliable as a DASH machine but they do seem to hold up surprisingly
>> well on the road. Not well enough that I'd want to run one without a
>> spare, mind you.
>Most people I talk to seem to agree that the DA-88's are more reliable but I still
>wouln't trust doing an important recording on any of those type machines. It makes
>me feel bad to tell people that the
>• • • • • • • • • • • •
>Larry Lessard, Systems Consultant
>Pro Audio Design, Inc., 357 Liberty St. Rockland, Ma. 02370
>Authorized SSL service and factory outlet for preowned SSL consoles.
>"A Full Service Professional Audio Company"
>http://www.proaudiodesign.com • http://www.UsedSSL.com
>phone: 781-982-2600 ext.605 fax: 781-982-2610
--
Angelo Quaglia
AQ Productions
Lewis Melville
: Most people I talk to seem to agree that the DA-88's are more reliable but I still
: wouln't trust doing an important recording on any of those type machines. It makes
: me feel bad to tell people that the
I can remember spending lots of time cleaning the heads and
aligning various and sundry analogue multitracks. Not to mention the
occasional dropped reel and broken tape. Maintenance time on ADATs has
been very low... a checkup in the shop every 500-1000 hours.
At home I clean the machine whenever the error light flashes more than
once or twice and I change the idler wheel tire whenever the transport
doesn't engage properly. I'll bet I spend a couple of hours every six
months.
I can only speak for myself, but my ADATs have worked well, and I haven't
lost anything important after four or five thousand hours.
Maybe I'm lucky.
On critical projects with a budget its back to analogue, but I expect the
studio to have the machines cleaned and aligned.
cheers.
lewis melville
Mark McQuilken
>
>
> I've been proposing that any deck be checked and commissioned before placed
> into service. Any deck will be in a less than optimum alignment after being
> played warehouse football with . Any reel to reel is subjected to
> commissioning alignment and check out.
Absolutely! One of the problems is that most of the dealers that sell
these AREN'T service centers. Should they be required to be, if Alesis
is aware of such a problem (I assume that you, and other top-notch
service centers, have communicated this to Alesis)?
> The service department of your dealer
> would have found the problems and corrected them in a few minutes for which
> Alesis pays for. The 30% figure you claim just shows a bias that does not
> reflect reality.
This figure is MOST DEFINITELY hearsay. And although I subscribe to the
priciple of "the fallacy of personal experience", there's been TOO much
anecdotal "evidence" too ignore the possibility that I'm just being hard
on the machines (in use AND in conversation). For example, an associate
of mine was one of those "celebrities" who received the first ADATs and
has been dealing with them since day one. If it wasn't for a full-time
Alesis-certified tech on staff, he wouldn't have been able to come close
to matching the production efficiency he achieves with his 2" machine.
As you are aware, all electro-mechanical devices require more TLC than
many are willing to give (a corrollary to your main point, me thinks).
My personal beef with the machines is, despite my willingness and skills
to coddle the machines, Alesis' party-line requires that I send the
machines 3-hours away for anything (including rudimentary cleaning and
alignment)...otherwise they won't honor things like a prematurely failed
head.
> A wise recordist would borrow the habits of the larger
> studios which, of course, would check and verify any relevant performance
> before committing a client's project to an unknown piece of equipment. I
> guess because they are so inexpensive most people think ADATs don't deserve
> to be treated with the same service and installation regard as a $65K tape
> deck. That is inviting problems that the client does not deserve. When a
> deck is determined to have survived the shipping and warehouse abuse the
> deck will probably not require any more looking after for months, or about
> 1,000 hours of operation, as the vast majority of owners experiences
> indicate.
Here's where the fallacy of personal experience comes into play: you
claim "vast majority"...somehow, with these machines, I've always fallen
into the "miniscule minority" category. I'm the first to admit that my
mere presence may cause the machines to do weird things, but
unfortunately, there's other of my ilk who echo the same experiences
(anecdotal, I understand, but short of having MTBF and/or field failure
figures, who else can I judge?). Several of the "pro" studios here that
started with the format have either abandoned them or use them as little
as possible. Does that mean that: a) We're in a pocket of the Bermuda
Triangle that causes ADATs to go weird, b) These very-experienced
engineers and operators are involved in a conspiracy against Alesis, or
c) Despite their best-efforts, wanting the machines to work, they found
the problems too frequent and disruptive to continue using in a "pro"
environment? As with most professionals (yourself included), they are
too polite to lambast ADATs but, instead, quietly find alternatives that
work...
>
> This is what this class-action suit is
> > about...that Alesis has knowingly released a product--originally marked
> > and intended for use by people who make money from using such
> > things--that had (has?) and yet they
> > failed to alert people to this "nuance" (marketing feature?).
> >
> > Frankly, I don't think purchase price has ANYTHING to do with a tool's
> > professional application. So, to blame folks for buying the Alesis sales
> > crap for their own woes because of the $2k price tag, IMHO, fails to
> > give Alesis their share of the responsibility...
>
> If people who take care of them generally don't have problems and people who
> disregard them frequently do have problems, it does not indicate that Alesis
> created a product with "a high probability of failure"
I agree with your first point and, you're correct, this doesn't indicate
a product with a low MTBF.
>
> I know I never allowed client engineer and producers use any equipment until
> we had checked it our satisfaction.
Wise. It shows your experience and professionalism...
> I still do that whether it is a piece of
> test equipment or a new little compressor. As it turned out I bought one of
> your compressors at Bananas at large as a gift for a girlfriend. I checked
> it out and it was dead, a dead power supply, which I replaced from my stock
> and sent it on it's way.
First, I'm sorry that you had any problem. Second, maybe the effect I
have on ADATs, *you* have on RNCs! <VBG> Since our reported field
failure rate is less than 0.5%, I can only assume either it's an infant
death or some such thing. Thanks for the feedback, as it's our only link
to data that can help us solve any production/design problems with this
and other products...
> A long chain of incontinence was averted by simply
> checking the performance of a new piece of equipment.
>
> What ever happened to you ADATs was solvable in a few minutes by your
> dealer's service department that would have made sure that the deck passed
> all QC tests and alignment verifications. There is a long list of QC tests
> that the deck passed when it left the factory and the store would have
> verified all the same QC tests. Those few minutes would have saved
> frustration and time.
>
> --
> Stan Jacox
Thanks for your response, Stan! Would you be willing to share your
maintenance knowledge on TASCAM MDMs with me?
Scott Dorsey
>
>I agree with some of what you're saying, *BUT* Alesis /was/ marketing
>the thing as a "pro" recorder (check the front of the black face ADATs
>where it says "8 track PROFESSIONAL digital audio recorder"; check the
>early ADAT adverts about all the "pros" who are using them to make their
>albums!).
General rule: if it says "science" at the beginning (social science, political
science, computer science), it isn't one. And if it says "professional"
on the front panel, it's not.
If it were really professional, they wouldn't have to put that on the panel
to convince buyers that it was. Ampex and MCI never put "professional" on
a front panel.
jim andrews
> Thanks for your response, Stan! Would you be willing to share your
> maintenance knowledge on TASCAM MDMs with me?
Me too, please! That is if it's not too big a hassle. I'm desperately
trying to juggle the why/when/how of replacing (2) DA-88s, and I know
that the longer I wait, the better the options. At least, I think I
know that.
jim andrews
basset sound
austin, tejas
Bill Gribble
> I'm the first to admit that my mere presence may cause the machines
> to do weird things, but unfortunately, there's other of my ilk who
> echo the same experiences (anecdotal, I understand, but short of
> having MTBF and/or field failure figures, who else can I judge?).
My graduate school adviser was named Kuipers, and he was famous for
emitting "K-rays" that caused all software and hardware demos to fall
down dead as soon as he was in the room. I saw this happen so many
times that I almost believe it.
One thing to consider is that you live in Austin, and so does
Kuipers... you may be experiencing K-rays at a distance, or perhaps
there's a strange "K-ray multiplier" in between the UT campus and your
house. I believe there's an alignment between the UT tower, the
statues of confederate generals on the South Mall, and the
hatchet-faced Lady Justice on the roof of the state capital building
that could cause a "failure lens" to be focused directly at you in
South Austin... have you had an unusually hard stool lately, or
perhaps an inexplicable sexual dysfunction?
Or maybe ADATs are just engineered for the consumer marketplace, using
consumer parts, and transports that were designed to live about as
long as the 3-year average lifespan of a VCR. You make the call.
Bill Gribble
jim andrews
says...
> One thing to consider is that you live in Austin, and so does
> Kuipers... you may be experiencing K-rays at a distance, or perhaps
> there's a strange "K-ray multiplier" in between the UT campus and your
> house. I believe there's an alignment between the UT tower, the
> statues of confederate generals on the South Mall, and the
> hatchet-faced Lady Justice on the roof of the state capital building
> that could cause a "failure lens" to be focused directly at you in
> South Austin...
Crimony, my studio is *directly* in the line of fire.
I'm 30 blocks south of the capitol building . . . is
there any chance diffusion limits the K-ray effects at
that distance, or have you figured out why nothing
ever works at my place?
Scott Dorsey
>
>In fairness, shit happens. Spyro Gyra made their first album over a
>period of time. When nearly done they threw it onto an MCI 2" machine,
>whcih promptly fucked up the tape due to a transport failure. For a long
>time thereafter Jay insisted on Studers. Nobody knows what's going to
>happen next and some folks have had decent luck with their ADATs. Others
>have returned them in frustration and gone to different machines. I
>chose the DA88 because it runs a tape long enough to catch a whole set.
That's all you can do, and I had a Scully 280 destroy a master tape of
mine too.
All you can do is keep the equipment immaculately maintained, keep a
safety whenever possible, and try to relax.
I'll say that the MCI makes it easier to relax than the DA-88.
Stan Jacox
> Stan Jacox wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've been proposing that any deck be checked and commissioned before
placed
> > into service. Any deck will be in a less than optimum alignment after
being
> > played warehouse football with . Any reel to reel is subjected to
> > commissioning alignment and check out.
>
> Absolutely! One of the problems is that most of the dealers that sell
> these AREN'T service centers. Should they be required to be, if Alesis
> is aware of such a problem (I assume that you, and other top-notch
> service centers, have communicated this to Alesis)?
>
This is a great point. Are dealers that still have shops disappearing to be
replaced by box stores and catalog warehouses? Apparently they are. There
was a thread recently that broken down into two camps ( as every subject
here usually does except for the universal praise for some little compressor
we know of;>) ). One side was suggesting that dealers with knowledge and
support should be supported by loyal and grateful clients and on the other
hand those that think the price is all that matters. I'm in the former class
most of the time but in those cases where I fully accept the
iabilities( and benefits) for the appropriateness of my selection I select
based on price alone. People who have been through technical or operational
difficulties in the past start to see the importance of have a team
approach. The team includes a knowledgeable dealer, his application
engineers and his service staff. It does come at a higher price most often
but usually at a lower cost. Alesis and most companies that jumped into the
home and project recording market are market driven and the reps think
dealer relations is the dominant decision point that shape their service
network. If a deal wants to be a service center they will be accepted into
the program. If dealers thought it was important to their customers and the
customers were willing to pay a little more for the store to subsidize an
in-house shop I think most dealers would reopen their service shops. The
majority of sales gained or lost are determined by sales price and the
importance of full service is not. In this area, we as customers are pretty
short sighted and we are our worst enemies. This is not limited to home and
project studios but in almost all areas of western culture. The customer's
responsibility to wisely weigh their requirements with the solutions
available is a lost concept. Like it or not, the this industry has adopted
the same style of consumerism, that the user has no responsibility to know
their craft and arm themselves with knowledge of the principles involved.
Even "professionals" I meet every day display an incredible lack of concern
over their shallow their understanding of acoustics, electronics, magnetics
and perception and standards. Now the term "professional" is simply someone
who can get money for their labor.
I frequently defend ADATs because I think they are frequently blasted here
with a pile-on mentality. The vast majority really don't have problems but
they are intimidated by the stridency of the often irrational bias against
them. Every time I do defend them my email is swamped by the "quiet" people
who feel they are going to be ridiculed if they mention their happiness with
the service they have gotten from their ADATs. I have access to the
warranty and service data for all the reported problems along with my own
shop's database of over 5,000 ADAT repairs. I think I have a better
overview than anyone including Alesis on this subject. Knowing what I have
observed I can say most people are not having problems and I know of no
ADATs that have been retired ( except for demonstration purposes like
Fletchers "spike through the heart of an ADAT" art piece). For two years I
advertised my eagerness to buy those terrible ADATs from people who were
wanting to dump unrepeatable or run out ADATs. The frequent advice given by
many here, just throw them away. No one ever offered to sell me a dead or
worn out ADAT. I figured that sometimes problems a shop reported to a
customer indicated that the deck was not worth repairing. I haven't found a
truly worn out ADAT yet. I'm still looking for unrepeatable decks that
people are willing to sell but I don't advertise it anymore.
> > The service department of your dealer
> > would have found the problems and corrected them in a few minutes for
which
> > Alesis pays for. The 30% figure you claim just shows a bias that does
not
> > reflect reality.
>
> This figure is MOST DEFINITELY hearsay. And although I subscribe to the
> principle of "the fallacy of personal experience", there's been TOO much
> anecdotal "evidence" too ignore the possibility that I'm just being hard
> on the machines (in use AND in conversation). For example, an associate
> of mine was one of those "celebrities" who received the first ADATs and
> has been dealing with them since day one. If it wasn't for a full-time
> Alesis-certified tech on staff, he wouldn't have been able to come close
> to matching the production efficiency he achieves with his 2" machine.
> As you are aware, all electro-mechanical devices require more TLC than
> many are willing to give (a corrollary to your main point, me thinks).
> My personal beef with the machines is, despite my willingness and skills
> to coddle the machines, Alesis' party-line requires that I send the
> machines 3-hours away for anything (including rudimentary cleaning and
> alignment)...otherwise they won't honor things like a prematurely failed
> head.
>
The studio with the tech is doing what any studio with commitment to any
format tape would do. Buy the service manual, have a tech trained if they
did possess the experience, and look after them. This the way a Studer
handled and the importance in understanding the deck is no less important
with an ADAT. A well tuned and maintained A-800 or 827 for me is faster
to get projects done on than ADAT. The reason for that is not an inherent
problem with ADAT but the fact that I have built up a hard won background in
recording many many years on that format and have developed skills that I
have not yet developed for ADATs. I probably never will develop those
skills since I don't sit in a session 12 hours everyday anymore. Put me in
front of a DAW and I will be even more inefficient for that reason. People
who have developed their skills on a DAW can probably be pretty effective.
Alesis is more forgiving about deviating from their warranty guideline than
any company we work with. In most cases they'll cover anything. Some
studios that have gone through the training have been paid to do their own
warranty repairs. As long as you don't damage something obviously they will
cover it. There was a temporary problem with a chip that failed after
50-500 hours (due to static discharge) in the headstack but that did not
require replacement of the head, just the read preamp IC inside the head.
The same chip was used since the beginning but the chip foundry made a
process change that resulted in an increased static discharge susceptibility
even though these chips were incoming tested and burned in. I know most
shops didn't bother to buy the jigs or learn how to repair the heads but
that was an issue with the shop and not Alesis. The heads are the least wear
prone of any rotary head I know of. Alesis redesigned the chip and
immediately put it into production with a different foundry. The are
covering these heads.
I have been called into a number of studios that were complaining of poor
reliability and in every case the problem was found. Often it was a system
problem, other times it was a repair issue with the deck, other times it was
operator expectations of it operating in a different manner. A good system
approach should used early on in the selection and training process. When I
hear of localized problems, highly concentrated failure rates I look at the
common elements as well as the details. I did not apply for Alesis warranty
status. I didn't care for Alesis. But after the ADAT had been out for a
year they contacted me to see if I could shed light on the unusually
problems in a particular area. In a very brief period the common element was
the main shop and an unethical owner in that area. Since that time I have
gotten very close to the company and while sometimes software is released
too early but generally I have come to respect the engineers and the
policies of the company. The more I learned about the ADAT format and the
system the more respect I had for the system. There is a reason for the
"unexplained" problems but what? Might it be that the decks were never
properly setup or maintained even if they did spend time in the shop. As you
know, the dilution of skill levels is not limited to engineers but also has
effected the ranks of technicians. There is a real, absolute scarcity of
qualified and skilled technicians. This field can not compare with the pay
rates found with engineers in the computer and communications industries so
the few people left in this one are either doing it at great personal cost
because of love for it or have severe enough personality defects to preclude
them from working in a traditional working environment. I haven't figured
out which I fall into yet. As a EE and a technician I can say it takes a
lot longer and dedication to be a competent generalist tech than an EE. I
do not know of a competent tech younger than 35. Many EEs in specialized
areas can be effective soon after graduation.
Well it was a not issue as long as it was found before Wendy got it as a
present, I have purchased a number of them for gifts and never have had a
problem. I don't really consider I have many problem with any equipment. I
usually give the equipment and people the benefit of the doubt and I am
usually rewarded for it. It became a none issue because it was checked out
on my time instead of by the person needing to use it in a pressure
situation. Exactly the point I was trying to make about any equipment taken
out of a box and put into service. Heck, I am probably the only person to
say they have never had a problem with an Jaguar or an Italian sport car,
be it Alfa, Maserati or Ferrari.
> >
> > What ever happened to you ADATs was solvable in a few minutes by your
> > dealer's service department that would have made sure that the deck
passed
> > all QC tests and alignment verifications. There is a long list of QC tes
ts
> > that the deck passed when it left the factory and the store would have
> > verified all the same QC tests. Those few minutes would have saved
> > frustration and time.
> >
> > --
> > Stan Jacox
>
> Thanks for your response, Stan! Would you be willing to share your
> maintenance knowledge on TASCAM MDMs with me?
>
Sure.
> Cheers,
> McQ
>
> __
> Mark McQuilken
> FMR Audio
> www.fmraudio.com
--
Mark McQuilken
(snippage)
>
> One thing to consider is that you live in Austin, and so does
> Kuipers... you may be experiencing K-rays at a distance, or perhaps
> there's a strange "K-ray multiplier" in between the UT campus and your
> house. I believe there's an alignment between the UT tower, the
> statues of confederate generals on the South Mall, and the
> hatchet-faced Lady Justice on the roof of the state capital building
> that could cause a "failure lens" to be focused directly at you in
> perhaps an inexplicable sexual dysfunction?
"Not now honey, I'm getting blasted by K-rays..." Cool!
>
> Or maybe ADATs are just engineered for the consumer marketplace, using
> consumer parts, and transports that were designed to live about as
> long as the 3-year average lifespan of a VCR. You make the call.
Personally, I think that it's K-rays...you see, I *REALLY* wanted the
ADATs to work for me (in fact, I'm an unabashed Alesis fan...they've
done more for musicians in the last 8 years than most companies).
Although I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp, I couldn't get them to
work consistently ("tweaking" and all). Case in point: Joe McDermott was
over the other day doing a transfer from the ADATs (which work
/flawlessly/ for him) to the DA98s and damned if those ADATs didn't
freeze up and do other weird shit while they were here. I freely admit
that this is not an Alesis problem, it's me and these K-rays! So, to
ADAT users: please ignore any negatives you hear about ADATs! It's only
those of us afflicted by K-rays that have any problems! It's a very
solid, professional piece of gear that any non-K-ray sufferer can use to
climb to the top of the charts in the most efficient and effective way
possible! No, really!
Afflicted and delusional in Austin,
Mark McQuilken
> > maintenance knowledge on TASCAM MDMs with me?
>
> trying to juggle the why/when/how of replacing (2) DA-88s, and I know
> that the longer I wait, the better the options. At least, I think I
> know that.
>
> jim andrews
Damn it, Jim! Give me a call...we need to talk!
hank alrich
> I will say this : Handling tapes in every major tape format, analog and
> digital, with clients great and small coming here to track and mix for
> almost 20 years, we have seen more problems with adat than all of our
> other multitrack tape machines combined. That is 15 different multitracks
> in 5 different multitrack tape formats. 2 of those 15 machines are
> adat/BRC and they are the biggest headache by far. Maintainence is not
> the issue, poor design is issue.
Could've sworn it was _more_ than 20 years, John. I'm thinking of that
album Rock Romano produced, using your digital gear, while I was still
aiming AWHQ. Wish I could remember the name of it.
In any case, thanks for your comments. You keep such a low profile I'd
bet few here understand the extent of your experience. You're not
exactly working out of your spare bedroom. <g>
Harvey Gerst
>hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote:
>>
>>In fairness, shit happens. Spyro Gyra made their first album over a
>>period of time. When nearly done they threw it onto an MCI 2" machine,
>>whcih promptly fucked up the tape due to a transport failure. For a long
>>time thereafter Jay insisted on Studers. Nobody knows what's going to
>>happen next and some folks have had decent luck with their ADATs. Others
>>have returned them in frustration and gone to different machines. I
>>chose the DA88 because it runs a tape long enough to catch a whole set.
>
>That's all you can do, and I had a Scully 280 destroy a master tape of
>mine too.
Scott,
Then that means that the Scully was operating to spec, right?
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
hank alrich
> In article <87g0vjc...@flophouse.localnet>, gr...@billgribble.com
> says...
>
> > One thing to consider is that you live in Austin, and so does
> > Kuipers... you may be experiencing K-rays at a distance, or perhaps
> > there's a strange "K-ray multiplier" in between the UT campus and your
> > house. I believe there's an alignment between the UT tower, the
> > statues of confederate generals on the South Mall, and the
> > hatchet-faced Lady Justice on the roof of the state capital building
> > that could cause a "failure lens" to be focused directly at you in
> > South Austin...
>
> Crimony, my studio is *directly* in the line of fire.
> I'm 30 blocks south of the capitol building . . . is
> there any chance diffusion limits the K-ray effects at
> that distance, or have you figured out why nothing
> ever works at my place?
Wander the TX hiways. Collect the shells of Armadillos that were unable
to emulate Jim Franklin's diagram, wherein the little critters jump over
the road as the autos pass under. Stack those shells around your studio
to a height of about six feet. Radiation not absorbed will be diffused.
Trust me: I've been there.
hank alrich
> Case in point: Joe McDermott was
> over the other day doing a transfer from the ADATs (which work
> /flawlessly/ for him) to the DA98s and damned if those ADATs didn't
> freeze up and do other weird shit while they were here.
Get those goddman Boses outta the livingroom and try again.
P. Shean
john moran <stu...@digisrvs.com> wrote in message
news:studio-2601...@216-118-40-171.pdq.net...
> digital, with clients great and small coming here to track and mix for
> almost 20 years, we have seen more problems with adat than all of our
> other multitrack tape machines combined. That is 15 different multitracks
> in 5 different multitrack tape formats. 2 of those 15 machines are
> adat/BRC and they are the biggest headache by far. Maintainence is not