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RIP, who's next ?
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geoff
May 20, 2012, 2:37:22 AM5/20/12
to
Looks like we're losing them at more that one-a-week lately ;-(
geoff
geoff
Frank
May 21, 2012, 4:04:03 AM5/21/12
to
On Sun, 20 May 2012 18:37:22 +1200, in 'rec.audio.pro',
in article <RIP, who's next ?>,
http://www.billboard.com/news/robin-gibb-of-the-bee-gees-dead-at-62-1007106952.story
--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
[also covers AVCHD (including AVCCAM & NXCAM) and XDCAM EX].
in article <RIP, who's next ?>,
"geoff" <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>Looks like we're losing them at more that one-a-week lately ;-(
>
>geoff
Robin Gibb of the Bee Gees Dead at 62
>Looks like we're losing them at more that one-a-week lately ;-(
>
>geoff
http://www.billboard.com/news/robin-gibb-of-the-bee-gees-dead-at-62-1007106952.story
--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
[also covers AVCHD (including AVCCAM & NXCAM) and XDCAM EX].
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 8:29:58 AM5/21/12
to
I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the BeeGees -- who,
like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing of any real
or lasting value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article for
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago) is about one page.
like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing of any real
or lasting value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article for
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago) is about one page.
Trevor
May 21, 2012, 8:46:43 AM5/21/12
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jpdces$mo9$1...@dont-email.me...
general public attitudes. You can add to the Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau entry
yourself if you have more details.
Trevor.
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 10:22:23 AM5/21/12
to
legacy.
Aside from that, Dietrich was a *performer*, whose "contribution" was based
on his popularity as a singer rather than, for example, those of the
composers whose works he sang. The BeeGees were composers as well as
performers, so your comparison is puzzling to me.
--
best regards,
Neil
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 10:55:02 AM5/21/12
to
>> I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the
>> BeeGees -- who, like most artists in any genre,
>> contributed essentially nothing of any real or lasting
>> value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article
>> for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago)
>> is about one page.
>> BeeGees -- who, like most artists in any genre,
>> contributed essentially nothing of any real or lasting
>> value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article
>> for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago)
>> is about one page.
> Dietrich was a *performer*, whose "contribution" was based
> on his popularity as a singer rather than, for example, those
> of the composers whose works he sang. The BeeGees were
> composers as well as performers, so your comparison is
> puzzling to me.
So, for example, Frank Sinatra's work as a singer has no artistic meaning or
> on his popularity as a singer rather than, for example, those
> of the composers whose works he sang. The BeeGees were
> composers as well as performers, so your comparison is
> puzzling to me.
value, because he didn't write songs? Or (to be more blunt about it), one
cannot distinguish between the artistic value of Frank Sinatra's singing and
his daughter's?
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 11:04:27 AM5/21/12
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"Jeff Henig" <yom...@yomama.com> wrote in message
news:2073739447359304985.0...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Now, see? I didn't even hear about it. That saddens me. The
> man was an amazing bass vocalist. May he rest in peace.
If you're talking about DFD -- he was a baritone.
news:2073739447359304985.0...@news.eternal-september.org...
> man was an amazing bass vocalist. May he rest in peace.
If you're talking about DFD -- he was a baritone.
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 11:06:11 AM5/21/12
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By way, with respect to the BeeGees... No one has yet made the obvious,
tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
Message has been deleted
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 11:23:08 AM5/21/12
to
performer and the contributions of a composer are not equivalent along the
dimensions that you established. Such notions of "artistic meaning or value"
are purely subjective and serve mainly to present the bias of one making
claims one way or another. As for the length of the article about Dietrich,
the less said about Nazis the better.
--
best regards,
Neil
Message has been deleted
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 12:42:29 PM5/21/12
to
Jeff Henig wrote:
> I googled around a bit and found nothing to suggest he was a Nazi,
> other than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2
> POW, and singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
>
How does one serve in the German military during WW2 *without* being a Nazi?
At the end of the day, it is a personal choice, and I have close personal
friends whose families were all but eliminated from the face of the Earth by
Nazis. I have other close personal friends who are Germans whose families
made different personal choices during WW2, losing everything they owned for
generations first to the Nazis, then to the Russians, and who are today U.S.
citizens of great integrity. Choices matter, and I have a lot of respect for
those that can make the tough choices and accept the consequences without
resevation.
> Even if he was a Nazi, which I don't know, I've learned to separate
> the appreciation of an artist's work from their politics and/or
> private life. I'm a huge John Lennon fan, and a Richard Wagner fan,
> and a Paul Robeson fan, and a Harry Belafonte fan, and a Von Karajan
> fan. Their personal lives and politics? Meh, not so much.
>
I can appreciate talent, but not be "a fan" of an individual, group or
organization if their personal choices are in conflict with my personal
values. YMMV.
--
best regards,
Neil
> other than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2
> POW, and singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
>
How does one serve in the German military during WW2 *without* being a Nazi?
At the end of the day, it is a personal choice, and I have close personal
friends whose families were all but eliminated from the face of the Earth by
Nazis. I have other close personal friends who are Germans whose families
made different personal choices during WW2, losing everything they owned for
generations first to the Nazis, then to the Russians, and who are today U.S.
citizens of great integrity. Choices matter, and I have a lot of respect for
those that can make the tough choices and accept the consequences without
resevation.
> Even if he was a Nazi, which I don't know, I've learned to separate
> the appreciation of an artist's work from their politics and/or
> private life. I'm a huge John Lennon fan, and a Richard Wagner fan,
> and a Paul Robeson fan, and a Harry Belafonte fan, and a Von Karajan
> fan. Their personal lives and politics? Meh, not so much.
>
I can appreciate talent, but not be "a fan" of an individual, group or
organization if their personal choices are in conflict with my personal
values. YMMV.
--
best regards,
Neil
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 12:56:51 PM5/21/12
to
> The very first song in the second semester of my freshman
> voice repertoire was Erl Koenig. They wouldn't let me
> transpose it down to my contrabass range (I could nearly
> sing the entire piece an octave down, but since my upper
> range wasn't developed yet, it was too high for me to sing
> as written), so my voice was destroyed for about eight
> weeks trying to follow that man [DFD].
Unfair. The piece is ideal for a bass, isn't it? (Of course, you'd have
trouble with the child's voice. <grin> But couldn't you have done it
falsetto?)
I've imagined Dan Aykroyd doing an SNL sketch for "Earl King's Daycare
Centers" -- "Your children will be dressed in beautiful robes hand-sewn by
my mother."
> voice repertoire was Erl Koenig. They wouldn't let me
> transpose it down to my contrabass range (I could nearly
> sing the entire piece an octave down, but since my upper
> range wasn't developed yet, it was too high for me to sing
> as written), so my voice was destroyed for about eight
> weeks trying to follow that man [DFD].
Unfair. The piece is ideal for a bass, isn't it? (Of course, you'd have
trouble with the child's voice. <grin> But couldn't you have done it
falsetto?)
I've imagined Dan Aykroyd doing an SNL sketch for "Earl King's Daycare
Centers" -- "Your children will be dressed in beautiful robes hand-sewn by
my mother."
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 12:59:45 PM5/21/12
to
> I googled around a bit and found nothing to suggest he was a Nazi, other
> than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2 POW, and
> singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
> than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2 POW, and
> singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
> Even if he was a Nazi, which I don't know, I've learned to separate the
> appreciation of an artist's work from their politics and/or private life.
> I'm a huge John Lennon fan, and a Richard Wagner fan, and a Paul Robeson
> fan, and a Harry Belafonte fan, and a Von Karajan fan. Their personal
lives
> and politics? Meh, not so much.
I recently learned that Carl Ruggles was a racist and an anti-Semite, which
> appreciation of an artist's work from their politics and/or private life.
> I'm a huge John Lennon fan, and a Richard Wagner fan, and a Paul Robeson
> fan, and a Harry Belafonte fan, and a Von Karajan fan. Their personal
lives
> and politics? Meh, not so much.
caused a break with Lou Harrison. We don't know whether he hated queers, but
Harrison is gay, and Ruggles loved Whitman's poetry.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
PStamler
May 21, 2012, 2:12:02 PM5/21/12
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Fischer-Dieskau's obituary in the Times discusses these issues:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/arts/music/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-german-baritone-dies-at-86.html?pagewanted=all
Peace,
Paul
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/arts/music/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-german-baritone-dies-at-86.html?pagewanted=all
Peace,
Paul
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 2:10:54 PM5/21/12
to
> on the definition of fan (I meant fan of their art, just to clarify).
>
I understand, but see one's art as being an extension of one's person. I
have little interest in "art" that lacks a personal expression. I wouldn't
even *call* it art in such cases... a craft, maybe.
> But he was drafted into the military, basically at gunpoint. My
> understanding is that the only WW2 German military group that
> required Nazi membership was the SS. He was a Wehrmacht soldier, and
> not an SS member.
>
> If you're a draftee, it doesn't necessarily follow that you agree
> with your national leadership's politics.
>
Soldiers of any army are are advancing the purpose and principles of their
government. No excuses (btw, that goes for the U.S., too, and we'll likely
suffer the consequences of the Iraqi invasion for a long time). I wouldn't
want my life to be dependent on any soldier that didn't realize that fact,
as they could be very dangerously unpredictable.
>See the Vietnam war for examples.
>
When I was 1A during the Vietnam conflict (we didn't declare that a war,
either), I had to decide what my choice would be should I be drafted, and be
willing to accept the consequences of that choice. I wouldn't leave the
country, but I wasn't going to participate in that misguided effort, either.
The German family that I mentioned earlier didn't participate with the Nazi
regime, and accepted the consequences at great personal risk and loss. I
choose to see these tough choices as a matter of integrity, and I'm no fan
of those who lack integrity.
--
best regards,
Neil
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 3:08:22 PM5/21/12
to
> When I was 1A during the Vietnam conflict (we didn't declare that a war,
> either), I had to decide what my choice would be should I be drafted, and
be
> willing to accept the consequences of that choice. I wouldn't leave the
> country, but I wasn't going to participate in that misguided effort,
either.
> The German family that I mentioned earlier didn't participate with the
Nazi
> regime, and accepted the consequences at great personal risk and loss. I
> choose to see these tough choices as a matter of integrity, and I'm no fan
> of those who lack integrity.
Would you lay down your freedom -- or life -- for that integrity? Because
> either), I had to decide what my choice would be should I be drafted, and
be
> willing to accept the consequences of that choice. I wouldn't leave the
> country, but I wasn't going to participate in that misguided effort,
either.
> The German family that I mentioned earlier didn't participate with the
Nazi
> regime, and accepted the consequences at great personal risk and loss. I
> choose to see these tough choices as a matter of integrity, and I'm no fan
> of those who lack integrity.
that's what it ultimately comes down to.
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 3:09:11 PM5/21/12
to
> I think [The Erl King] is going back on my bucket list
> of songs to perform and record for my own satisfaction,
> if no one else's. It represents a challenge at which I failed,
> and I really want to get back on that horse.
How do you figure you failed? You tried. I can butcher "Widmung" quite
effectively, and lose no sleep over it.
Maybe I should try learning "The Erl King". It should be a lot of fun to
sing (if songs about dead children are fun).
> Dan Ackroyd. Wow.
> You scare me sometimes, William.
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment.
> Why do I see [sic] that tag line spoken as
> Doctor Detroit? *grin*
Considering all the "late-night sleazy-announcer" spoofs Aykroyd did, the
idea of him selling anything -- especially lethal child care services -- is
inherently funny.
> of songs to perform and record for my own satisfaction,
> if no one else's. It represents a challenge at which I failed,
> and I really want to get back on that horse.
How do you figure you failed? You tried. I can butcher "Widmung" quite
effectively, and lose no sleep over it.
Maybe I should try learning "The Erl King". It should be a lot of fun to
sing (if songs about dead children are fun).
> Dan Ackroyd. Wow.
> You scare me sometimes, William.
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment.
> Why do I see [sic] that tag line spoken as
> Doctor Detroit? *grin*
Considering all the "late-night sleazy-announcer" spoofs Aykroyd did, the
idea of him selling anything -- especially lethal child care services -- is
inherently funny.
Message has been deleted
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 4:29:46 PM5/21/12
to
they had to make responsible decisions and accept the consequences. That's
one reason why they're called "tough choices", I suppose.
--
best regards,
Neil
geoff
May 20, 2012, 5:03:49 PM5/20/12
to
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> By way, with respect to the BeeGees... No one has yet made the
> obvious, tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
What, that the whole world can now start living ?
> By way, with respect to the BeeGees... No one has yet made the
> obvious, tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
geoff
Neil Gould
May 21, 2012, 5:49:52 PM5/21/12
to
Jeff Henig wrote:
> "Neil Gould" <ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand, but see one's art as being an extension of one's
>> person. I have little interest in "art" that lacks a personal
>> expression. I wouldn't even *call* it art in such cases... a craft,
>> maybe.
>>
>
> Were I to take that direction, I'd have to rule out Hollywood almost
> "Neil Gould" <ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand, but see one's art as being an extension of one's
>> person. I have little interest in "art" that lacks a personal
>> expression. I wouldn't even *call* it art in such cases... a craft,
>> maybe.
>>
>
> in its entirety.
>
I see no problem with that... ;-)
> Same with most of the music industry.
>
Nor with that... ;-)
> [...] But I've also found
> that I don't have to agree with you to be a musical admirer or even a
> friend.
>
As I said, I can appreciate talent, knowledge, skill and craft without being
a "fan", so in that way we are not that different. Where one draws the line
is a personal choice, and I don't think it's any human's place to determine
that for another. That's what "free will" means to me.
> I've also found that each of us is a mixed bag. We're all capable of
> evil and stupidity. And forgiveness. And unconditional love.
>
On this point, we are in complete agreement, and I'd add compassion to the
list.
--
best regards,
Neil
Message has been deleted
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 7:15:37 PM5/21/12
to
"geoff" <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:us2dnZXSKJGOMyfS...@giganews.com...
It's so obvious I'll leave it to you to come up with it. When you're
crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses your mind, you'll be glad I didn't
tell you.
news:us2dnZXSKJGOMyfS...@giganews.com...
crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses your mind, you'll be glad I didn't
tell you.
Message has been deleted
William Sommerwerck
May 21, 2012, 7:41:15 PM5/21/12
to
>>>> By way, with respect to the BeeGees...
>>>> No one has yet made the obvious,
>>>> tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
>>> What, that the whole world can now start living?
>> It's so obvious I'll leave it to you to come up with it.
>> When you're crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses
>> your mind, you'll be glad I didn't tell you.
> Oh, ouch.
>>>> No one has yet made the obvious,
>>>> tasteless joke. I won't stoop to it.
>>> What, that the whole world can now start living?
>> It's so obvious I'll leave it to you to come up with it.
>> When you're crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses
>> your mind, you'll be glad I didn't tell you.
> Yeah, it's from the SNF soundtrack.
> *wince*
Indeed.
Marc Wielage
May 21, 2012, 10:56:59 PM5/21/12
to
On Mon, 21 May 2012 05:29:58 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article <jpdces$mo9$1...@dont-email.me>):
> I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the BeeGees -- who,
> like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing of any real
> or lasting value...
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<
"Value" -- cultural, creative, or financial -- is in the eye (and ear) of the
beholder. I believe the Bee Gees made several billion dollars during the
lifespan of the group, sold 220 million records, had thirty Top 40 American
hits (including nine #1 hits), and wrote and sang some of the most
significant songs of the 1960s and 1970s.
Whether you like their music or not is immaterial. Their impact on pop
culture was immense, and I would say there's still a lot of affection for
their music -- even 30-40 years later -- and I suspect it will continue for a
long time after that. How much longer is anybody's guess.
BTW, there's tons of pop music I personally think is awful, but I acknowledge
that it had significant success (in terms of radio airplay or just dollars).
Objectively good music, vs. music I like personally, vs. profitable or
popular music, are sometimes all different things. Sometimes, they overlap.
It's important to know the difference.
--MFW
(in article <jpdces$mo9$1...@dont-email.me>):
> I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the BeeGees -- who,
> like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing of any real
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<
"Value" -- cultural, creative, or financial -- is in the eye (and ear) of the
beholder. I believe the Bee Gees made several billion dollars during the
lifespan of the group, sold 220 million records, had thirty Top 40 American
hits (including nine #1 hits), and wrote and sang some of the most
significant songs of the 1960s and 1970s.
Whether you like their music or not is immaterial. Their impact on pop
culture was immense, and I would say there's still a lot of affection for
their music -- even 30-40 years later -- and I suspect it will continue for a
long time after that. How much longer is anybody's guess.
BTW, there's tons of pop music I personally think is awful, but I acknowledge
that it had significant success (in terms of radio airplay or just dollars).
Objectively good music, vs. music I like personally, vs. profitable or
popular music, are sometimes all different things. Sometimes, they overlap.
It's important to know the difference.
--MFW
Trevor
May 21, 2012, 11:10:09 PM5/21/12
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jpdkus$d3i$1...@dont-email.me...
> So, for example, Frank Sinatra's work as a singer has no artistic meaning
> or
> value, because he didn't write songs? Or (to be more blunt about it), one
> cannot distinguish between the artistic value of Frank Sinatra's singing
> and
> his daughter's?
Sure you can, Nancy was *much* better! :-)
> or
> value, because he didn't write songs? Or (to be more blunt about it), one
> cannot distinguish between the artistic value of Frank Sinatra's singing
> and
> his daughter's?
Trevor.
geoff
May 21, 2012, 6:41:55 AM5/21/12
to
geoff
William Sommerwerck
May 22, 2012, 8:00:37 AM5/22/12
to
"geoff" <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:VeGdndqCOctR8CbS...@giganews.com...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>>> By way, with respect to the BeeGees... No one has
>>>> yet made the obvious, tasteless joke. I won't stoop
>>>> to it.
>>> What, that the whole world can now start living?
>> It's so obvious I'll leave it to you to come up with it. When
>> you're crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses your mind,
>> you'll be glad I didn't tell you.
> I think mine was more subtle. Think about it...
I missed it. What was it?
>>>> By way, with respect to the BeeGees... No one has
>>>> yet made the obvious, tasteless joke. I won't stoop
>>>> to it.
>>> What, that the whole world can now start living?
>> It's so obvious I'll leave it to you to come up with it. When
>> you're crawling into bed tonight, and it crosses your mind,
>> you'll be glad I didn't tell you.
> I think mine was more subtle. Think about it...
William Sommerwerck
May 22, 2012, 8:41:00 AM5/22/12
to
> I've also found that each of us is a mixed bag. We're
> all capable of evil and stupidity. And forgiveness. And
> unconditional love.
Charles Badger Clark Jr, the famous cowboy poet, said about his
> all capable of evil and stupidity. And forgiveness. And
> unconditional love.
Methodist-minister father... "...in his long life, [he] has seldom been
conscious of a man's rough exterior, or unconscious of his obscurest
virtue."
ckoz...@snet.net
May 22, 2012, 11:43:52 AM5/22/12
to
On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:37:22 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
> Looks like we're losing them at more that one-a-week lately ;-(
>
> geoff
__________
Keep your fingers crossed for George Jones. He's in hospital as of May 21st for that stubborn UR infection he's been fighting for some time now.
-ChrisCoaster
> Looks like we're losing them at more that one-a-week lately ;-(
>
> geoff
__________
Keep your fingers crossed for George Jones. He's in hospital as of May 21st for that stubborn UR infection he's been fighting for some time now.
-ChrisCoaster
geoff
May 21, 2012, 4:49:50 PM5/21/12
to
William Sommerwerck
May 22, 2012, 7:54:37 PM5/22/12
to
>>> I think mine was more subtle. Think about it...
>> I missed it. What was it?
> http://bit.ly/KxJNJc
I don't feel I'm "living" any more now that another BeeGee has passed on.
>> I missed it. What was it?
> http://bit.ly/KxJNJc
But, hey, that's me.
pommyer...@yahoo.com
May 24, 2012, 4:25:39 PM5/24/12
to
On 21 May, 10:22, "Neil Gould" <n...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
> legacy.
>
I hate to break it to you, but fewer people, perfunctory bows to
political correctness aside, care about that than you and your fellow
tribesmen might think.
Having a "Nazi" legacy doesn't seem to have affected the popularity of
tape recording or certain makes of microphones too much.
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the BeeGees --
> > who, like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing
> > I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the BeeGees --
> > who, like most artists in any genre, contributed essentially nothing
> > of any real or lasting value -- runs several (equivalent) pages,
> > while the article for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days
> > ago) is about one page.
>
> Bad choices have consequences, too. Perhaps being a Nazi can affect one's
> > while the article for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days
> > ago) is about one page.
>
> legacy.
>
I hate to break it to you, but fewer people, perfunctory bows to
political correctness aside, care about that than you and your fellow
tribesmen might think.
Having a "Nazi" legacy doesn't seem to have affected the popularity of
tape recording or certain makes of microphones too much.
pommyer...@yahoo.com
May 24, 2012, 4:43:31 PM5/24/12
to
On 21 May, 12:42, "Neil Gould" <n...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
brother -- the war's been over for more than 65 years, and rest of the
world has moved on. I suggest you move on with it. I lost some of my
family tree in the Holodomor, and I don't spend my time disparaging
the national and ethnic groups that were involved in perpetrating that
genocide against my people (which had a larger death toll, I might
add, than the Holocaust).
The fact is, the vast majority of those who served in the German
military during WWII were not card-carrying members of the Nazi Party,
and hence were not "Nazis." Historian Bryan Mark Rigg (himself a Jew)
estimated that there were up to 150,000 men of Jewish descent who
served in the German military during the Third Reich.
The back cover blurb of Rigg's 2004 book Hitler's Jewish Soldiers:
On the murderous road to "racial purity" Hitler encountered unexpected
detours, largely due to his own crazed views and inconsistent policies
regarding Jewish identity. After centuries of Jewish assimilation and
intermarriage in German society, he discovered that eliminating Jews
from the rest of the population was more difficult than he'd
anticipated. As Bryan Mark Rigg shows in this provocative new study,
nowhere was that heinous process more fraught with contradiction and
confusion than in the German military.
Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large
number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or
"partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted
in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much
higher than previously thought--perhaps as many as 150,000 men,
including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals
and admirals.
As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men
did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military
as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived
German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which
prior to Hitler had given little thought to the "race" of these men
but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its
soldiers.
The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a
highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous "exemptions"
were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to
spare a soldier's parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration
or far worse. (Hitler's own signature can be found on many of these
"exemption" orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to
trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing
manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually
impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other
victims of the Third Reich.
Based on a deep and wide-ranging research in archival and secondary
sources, as well as extensive interviews with more than four hundred
Mischlinge and their relatives, Rigg's study breaks truly new ground
in a crowded field and shows from yet another angle the extremely
flawed, dishonest, demeaning, and tragic essence of Hitler's rule.
> Jeff Henig wrote:
> > "Neil Gould" <n...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
> >> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >>>>> I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the
> >>>>> BeeGees -- who, like most artists in any genre,
> >>>>> contributed essentially nothing of any real or lasting
> >>>>> value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article
> >>>>> for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago)
> >>>>> is about one page.
>
> > "Neil Gould" <n...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
> >> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >>>>> I find it interesting that the Wikipedia article for the
> >>>>> BeeGees -- who, like most artists in any genre,
> >>>>> contributed essentially nothing of any real or lasting
> >>>>> value -- runs several (equivalent) pages, while the article
> >>>>> for Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (who died several days ago)
> >>>>> is about one page.
>
> >>>> Dietrich was a *performer*, whose "contribution" was based
> >>>> on his popularity as a singer rather than, for example, those
> >>>> of the composers whose works he sang. The BeeGees were
> >>>> composers as well as performers, so your comparison is
> >>>> puzzling to me.
>
> >>>> on his popularity as a singer rather than, for example, those
> >>>> of the composers whose works he sang. The BeeGees were
> >>>> composers as well as performers, so your comparison is
> >>>> puzzling to me.
>
> >>> So, for example, Frank Sinatra's work as a singer has no artistic
> >>> meaning or value, because he didn't write songs? Or (to be more
> >>> blunt about it), one cannot distinguish between the artistic value
> >>> of Frank Sinatra's singing and his daughter's?
>
> >>> meaning or value, because he didn't write songs? Or (to be more
> >>> blunt about it), one cannot distinguish between the artistic value
> >>> of Frank Sinatra's singing and his daughter's?
>
> >> I am pointing out that the comparison between the contributions of a
> >> performer and the contributions of a composer are not equivalent
> >> along the dimensions that you established. Such notions of "artistic
> >> meaning or value" are purely subjective and serve mainly to present
> >> the bias of one making claims one way or another. As for the length
> >> of the article about Dietrich, the less said about Nazis the better.
>
> > I googled around a bit and found nothing to suggest he was a Nazi,
> > other than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2
> > POW, and singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
>
> How does one serve in the German military during WW2 *without* being a Nazi?
The loxism evident in your posts is breathtaking. Let go of the hate,
> >> performer and the contributions of a composer are not equivalent
> >> along the dimensions that you established. Such notions of "artistic
> >> meaning or value" are purely subjective and serve mainly to present
> >> the bias of one making claims one way or another. As for the length
> >> of the article about Dietrich, the less said about Nazis the better.
>
> > I googled around a bit and found nothing to suggest he was a Nazi,
> > other than his being drafted into the German military, becoming a WW2
> > POW, and singing for his fellow POWs at his captors' requests.
>
> How does one serve in the German military during WW2 *without* being a Nazi?
brother -- the war's been over for more than 65 years, and rest of the
world has moved on. I suggest you move on with it. I lost some of my
family tree in the Holodomor, and I don't spend my time disparaging
the national and ethnic groups that were involved in perpetrating that
genocide against my people (which had a larger death toll, I might
add, than the Holocaust).
The fact is, the vast majority of those who served in the German
military during WWII were not card-carrying members of the Nazi Party,
and hence were not "Nazis." Historian Bryan Mark Rigg (himself a Jew)
estimated that there were up to 150,000 men of Jewish descent who
served in the German military during the Third Reich.
The back cover blurb of Rigg's 2004 book Hitler's Jewish Soldiers:
On the murderous road to "racial purity" Hitler encountered unexpected
detours, largely due to his own crazed views and inconsistent policies
regarding Jewish identity. After centuries of Jewish assimilation and
intermarriage in German society, he discovered that eliminating Jews
from the rest of the population was more difficult than he'd
anticipated. As Bryan Mark Rigg shows in this provocative new study,
nowhere was that heinous process more fraught with contradiction and
confusion than in the German military.
Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large
number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or
"partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted
in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much
higher than previously thought--perhaps as many as 150,000 men,
including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals
and admirals.
As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men
did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military
as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived
German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which
prior to Hitler had given little thought to the "race" of these men
but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its
soldiers.
The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a
highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous "exemptions"
were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to
spare a soldier's parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration
or far worse. (Hitler's own signature can be found on many of these
"exemption" orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to
trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing
manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually
impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other
victims of the Third Reich.
Based on a deep and wide-ranging research in archival and secondary
sources, as well as extensive interviews with more than four hundred
Mischlinge and their relatives, Rigg's study breaks truly new ground
in a crowded field and shows from yet another angle the extremely
flawed, dishonest, demeaning, and tragic essence of Hitler's rule.
ckoz...@snet.net
May 26, 2012, 7:34:58 AM5/26/12
to
What the heck?!? Someone really took this thread off track like wrapping a turntable tonearm completely around the other way!
Two people in the music/radio biz to pray for: George Jones(upper respiratory) and Don Imus(carmudgeonly soul but ultimately good, with too many ailments to list!).
-CC
Two people in the music/radio biz to pray for: George Jones(upper respiratory) and Don Imus(carmudgeonly soul but ultimately good, with too many ailments to list!).
-CC
Mike Rivers
May 26, 2012, 8:05:31 AM5/26/12
to
On 5/26/2012 7:34 AM, ckoz...@snet.net wrote:
> Two people in the music/radio biz to pray for: George
> Jones(upper respiratory) and Don Imus(carmudgeonly soul
> but ultimately good, with too many ailments to list!).
Add Doc Watson to that list. I heard that he fell at home,
> Two people in the music/radio biz to pray for: George
> Jones(upper respiratory) and Don Imus(carmudgeonly soul
> but ultimately good, with too many ailments to list!).
was taken to the hospital, and in the process of fixing him
up from the fall, found some other problems. As of Friday,
he was in critical condition but "improving" after colon
surgery. Just turned 89 a few months ago.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501368_162-57441662/musician-doc-watson-has-surgery-at-nc-hospital/
--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
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