KM184 for piano?
John Smith
purchasing a pair of Neumann KM184s for recording classical piano
(Steinway B grand). I am looking to upgrade from my current AKG 451EBs.
The KM184 frequency response specs at the Neumann site show a low-end
rolloff starting at 200 Hz, -2dB at 100 Hz, -5dB at 50 Hz, and -12 dB at
20 Hz. Should I be concerned?
David Morgan (MAMS)
If you're close mic-ing, this could be a serious advantage to keeping
unwanted subsonics (pedal noises, etc.) out of your way. Same applies
to other rumble and such from a distance in a not so pristine room.
That's really a rather gradual roll-off & a good mic - and who needs 40hz
and below eating up valuable space ?
You really should consider using a dealer that will let you demo the mics
when the chunck o' change gets this big. If you'll ever need a small diaphram
pair for anything besides piano, you'll probably like them if they meet your
needs on piano.
DM
"John Smith" <jsm...@company.com> wrote in message news:3B4A862B...@company.com...
definition
center...(string crossing..sweet spot).....sounded great...very smooth...i
was very impressed at how rich the upper mids sounded...and the low mids
didn't get bulky and interfering...
i'll post a sample on my site in a couple days if ya like
u87-amek 9098
184s-TL audio comp/pre (can't remember model)
Paolo Tramannoni
<34E1BADFD0C009ED.742F22AF...@lp.airnews.net>,
> That's really a rather gradual roll-off & a good mic - and who needs 40hz
> and below eating up valuable space ?
Well, the piano can go down to about 27.5 Hz (some Fazioli with the
extended keyboard even lower), so maybe that range can be useful,
depending on the kind of music.
Paolo
--
Paolo Tramannoni
Porto Recanati, Italy
David Morgan (MAMS)
"Paolo Tramannoni" <pt...@edisons.it> wrote in message news:ptram-5C0CB8....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> In article
> <34E1BADFD0C009ED.742F22AF...@lp.airnews.net>,
> "David Morgan \(MAMS\)" <ma...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
> > That's really a rather gradual roll-off & a good mic - and who needs 40hz
> > and below eating up valuable space ?
>
> Well, the piano can go down to about 27.5 Hz (some Fazioli with the
> extended keyboard even lower), so maybe that range can be useful,
> depending on the kind of music.
;-) Hmmmm... I'd hate to have to keep that one tuned.
DM
JnyVee
In article <3B4A862B...@company.com>, John Smith
<jsm...@company.com> wrote:
--
<Help Keep The Net Emoticon-free!>
John La Grou
wrote:
John,
Yes, that could be a concern. For just a few more dollars, you should
consider a pair of small diaphragm omnis, such as from David
Josephson, or the Schoeps MK2/CMC6, or Sennheiser MKH-20s. All would
work well on classical grand piano.
JL
Scott Dorsey
I don't know. Should you be concerned?
You aren't going to get flat low end from any cardioid mike without some
trickery involved. If you need flat low end, you need an omni.
For recording a piano, you don't need much in the way of deep low end.
For recording an organ, you certainly do.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Kevin F. Rose
.and the low mids
>didn't get bulky and interfering...
This is why I use the 184 instead of the SM2... I still go for the SM2
first though.
GtrPaul
Mason & Hamlin 5' 10" w/ millenia pre and preferred 414EB (brass caps) for
cardoid recording.I have used the 184's very happily in live situations on
piano and will try them again with different placements. Please rent or borrow
a number of mics and try them with your pre, piano and room.IN fact, I have
bought a Steinway B and will try different mics on that piano.
Paul Hodes
Lorin David Schultz
>
> Based on previous advice from members of this group, I am considering
> purchasing a pair of Neumann KM184s for recording classical piano
> (Steinway B grand). I am looking to upgrade from my current AKG
> 451EBs.
What is it you don't like about the 451s? The 184 is similar enough in
sound to what you already have that I'd wonder about whether the upgrade
is going to get you what you want. I'd use either over a grand without
hesitation, but I'd also consider them almost interchangeable. The 184
is somewhat smoother, but the overall tonality is pretty similar.
> The KM184 frequency response specs at the Neumann site show a low-end
> rolloff starting at 200 Hz, -2dB at 100 Hz, -5dB at 50 Hz, and -12 dB
> at 20 Hz. Should I be concerned?
I don't know if you should be, but I can tell you that I'm not. We drop
184s into pianos all the time and have never felt like we were being
shortchanged in the bottom end department.
Lorin
Roger W. Norman
in a coincident pair, plus excellent rejection of other instruments even
with the lid at full stick. There have been a couple of times with limited
miking that I've actually had to use the lid to get the additional
instruments, but those were so strange that most of us would never run into
the situation. I've yet to try 140s with omni capsules (AK 130s) and a
Jecklin Disc, but I'm looking forward to the time I can do it.
Take a look at
http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=km100 for the piano
configuration.
I also (believe it or not) had great luck with the Marshall XML603s on piano
this past February at the East Coast Jazz Festival (Steinway B #395). They
did an excellent job (I know, how can I put these in a message bout KM
184s?), no "for the price" disclaimer at all. I was highly impressed.
Those babies only get pulled out for the most demanding of jobs now. After
all (Ty), we don't know how long they'll last! <g>
--
Roger W. Norman
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Kevin F. Rose" <gam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b4b17e9...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Roger W. Norman
pair of cardioids can do on piano in a coincident pair, albeit from a close
miking standpoint. I'd go for an omni on piano at maybe 4 to 6 feet, full
stick, but am I missing something here? And yes, I'm really trying to learn
here.
--
Roger W. Norman
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"JnyVee" <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in message
news:100720010900272472%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com...
Benjamin Maas
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:9ihpi4$b97$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> Unless you're using a Jecklin, why omnis? You've seen/heard what a decent
> pair of cardioids can do on piano in a coincident pair, albeit from a
close
> miking standpoint. I'd go for an omni on piano at maybe 4 to 6 feet, full
> stick, but am I missing something here? And yes, I'm really trying to
learn
> here.
>
Of course we are talking about a range of techniques for recording piano,
but for classical piano concerts, spaced omnis are one of my favorite ways
of recording. I typically use a pair of B&K 4006's spaced about 4 feet
apart. I position them about 6 feet out or so (depending on the room) and
about 8-9 feet high. I sort of angle them to "look" at the edge of the lid
when on full stick. I position them to get an even sound which usually
means that the left mic is about 6"-1' from the edge of the lid at the high
end. Gives you a beautiful blended ambient sound that works very well,
especially on bright instruments.
That said, when I record big bands and other jazz groups, I'll often put a
pair of KM 184s inside the piano. I can get a huge piano sound that works
beautifully with these mics. No need to eq anything...
--Ben
--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com
Roger W. Norman
RAP 3 TIMES) doesn't have the same requirements. I've never done a pipe
organ, but I did do both Papa John DeFrancesco and Irene Reid's B3 player
and that's one hell of a job. Especially Papa John's 2 massive 147s at full
tilt. No wonder son Joey jams so hard. Look what he grew up with. I'd
damned sure not want to kill a few 184s for a strong B3. What would you
use, Scott, and how many for a 147 Leslie?
--
Roger W. Norman
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9if2l4$64d$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Kevin F. Rose
I haven't found 184s to be that wimpy (I use 'em on loud amps from
time to time) but I'll bow to the fact that I use them up top and not
on the bottom of our 147. I prefer the grit and lack of noise from a
57 or two up top but sometimes I''ll do one of each 184/57 for the
spread. The 184 sometimes picks up the wrong "noises" to my ears but
there are no rules here. Seems like the bottom is *sound* specific and
I cactually like a U99, M269c, or for a darker tone a "The Tube" on
the bottom. Sometimes this mic isn't used for real estate reasons if a
bassist already exists in stringland.
Always use a pop filter, right?
Mike Clayton
<ben...@fifthcircle.com> wrote:
> Of course we are talking about a range of techniques for recording piano,
> but for classical piano concerts, spaced omnis are one of my favorite ways
> of recording. I typically use a pair of B&K 4006's spaced about 4 feet
> apart. I position them about 6 feet out or so (depending on the room) and
> about 8-9 feet high. I sort of angle them to "look" at the edge of the lid
> when on full stick. I position them to get an even sound which usually
> means that the left mic is about 6"-1' from the edge of the lid at the high
> end. Gives you a beautiful blended ambient sound that works very well,
> especially on bright instruments.
Benjamin, Do you have any problems with mono compatability with your
spaced omnis?
--
Mike Clayton
Language Labs
University of Canterbury
Benjamin Maas
"Mike Clayton" <m.cl...@it.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:m.clayton-120...@llabdvimac.fren.canterbury.ac.nz...
Not really... It isn't really an issue when recording a recital for
documentary purposes. If I must have perfect mono compatibility (like if
it's going to NPR or something), I'll record using mid-side. Mid Side on a
piano also sounds very good.
I use an AKG 426 stereo mic for M-S recordings. I'll put it about 4-6 feet
out and about 5 feet high "looking" directly at the strings... I find that
doing this results in a good sound with a limited number of mics, though...
I'll do this often for spotting a piano in a piano concerto at an orchestral
concert.
Greg Bryant
was on a studio upright - nice long soundboard - with the top open, and
Earthworks QTC1 Omnis for a Grand. You can hear a relatively low-res sample
(128K MP3) on our web site - go to the Gallery page and check the Christmas
album. I don't remember if I've got that address in my sig or not:
http://www.bryantrecording.com
The 184's are also phenomal on acoustic guitar. We dual miked a 1954 Martin
with 184's, and the artist (flat-picker) said it was the best recorded sound
he'd heard from it.
Enjoy,
Greg
Greg Bryant
http://www.bryantrecording.com
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