Cheap Replacement Faders for Mackie 1604-VLZ
imaf...@gmail.com
in Toronto) for a quote on the parts. They told me replacement faders
for this model were about CAN$20 a pop. I damn near had a conniption. I
mean, OK, I expected to be gouged, but CAN$420 for new faders on a
$1500 mixer? This is unprecedented in the history of highway robbery.
I'll sooner give the board to Fletcher for his next shish kebab (or
maybe stuffing for kishke?) than bend to that kind of swashbuckling.
Ok, enough melodrama. Does anyone know where to find wholesale or
cheaper equivalent faders for this board?
KZ
George Gleason
<imaf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146522627....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
buy another (used) 1604 with good faders and dust bin the junked one
sad fact is on low end stuff like this replacment is cheaper than repair
George
Scott Dorsey
I think they are ALPS types, and if you can get the part number off of
them, you might find them in the Digi-Key catalogue.
However, if they are noisy, you might be able to get away with a good
cleaning with Cailube rather than actual replacement.
The labour on replacing faders is not so low either.
---scott
>
>KZ
>
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Pooh Bear
Scott Dorsey wrote:
I heard they were Panasonic faders but Alps one will likely fit too.
Here's a link to some Panasonic faders from Digikey....
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=308419&Site=US&Cat=34472515
Graham
imaf...@gmail.com
I've got a spray can of MG Chemicals Nu-Trol, a contact
cleaner/lubricant, but that didn't seem to cure the fader on which I
tried it. Maybe Cai-Lube will yeild better results.
I, too, remember reading that the faders were made by Panasonic. If I'm
not mistaken it was mentioned in an old Mackie brochure. I guess I'll
have to crack it open and find out for sure. Thank God for electric
screwdrivers.
]-[
Mike Rivers
imaf...@gmail.com wrote:
> It's time for new faders on my 1604-VLZ so I called my local rep (I'm
> in Toronto) for a quote on the parts. They told me replacement faders
> for this model were about CAN$20 a pop. I damn near had a conniption. I
> mean, OK, I expected to be gouged, but CAN$420 for new faders on a
> $1500 mixer?
Same reason why pistons can cost $250 a piece for a $3,000 car engine.
They cost more when you don't buy them by the thousand. Besides, faders
are both important and not really cheap to make. That sounds like a
pretty fair price for an exact replacement to me.
> Ok, enough melodrama. Does anyone know where to find wholesale or
> cheaper equivalent faders for this board?
I'm sure you can get something from Digi-Key that's the correct value,
but it won't fit the holes in the chassis exactly. How much yuck are
you willing to put up with to save a few bucks.
Also, are you sure that your faders are really shot? Are there dropouts
as you slide them, or are they just crackly? That could a result of a
leaky coupling capacitor putting DC on the fader.
jakdedert
aftermarket source (you've been given at least a couple) and check it
for fit and suitability. If it works, order and replace the lot (or as
many as necessary). You'll need some facility with a screwdriver and a
soldering iron.
Spraying willy-nilly into the faders is not recommended. It washes out
the lubricants necessary for smooth operation. The only way to fix a
noisy or intermittent fader is to remove and disassemble it, and
fix/clean/relube as indicated. If the conductive element is shot, the
only practical remedy is replacement.
jak
YourHomeStudioDotCom
long on MF. While we're talking about 1604's, the pre-amp on the first
channel just went out. Does anybody know what it costs to replace it
and has anyone else had the same thing happen to them?
Thomas
www.yourhomestudio.com
Free Home Studio Newsletter - sign...@yourhomestudio.com
imaf...@gmail.com
I purchased this board about a month before the Mackie started
advertising the VLZ-Pro series, if memory serves. $1450 plus tax was
about the going rate at the time.
KZ
Pooh Bear
YourHomeStudioDotCom wrote:
> You paid $1500 for a 1604 VLZ? Man, you can get them for $849 all day
> long on MF. While we're talking about 1604's, the pre-amp on the first
> channel just went out. Does anybody know what it costs to replace it
> and has anyone else had the same thing happen to them?
You can't 'replace' it, it has to be repaired. Shouldn't be too
complicated for a decent tech but the labour cost for stripping the damn
thing down to get at it and then re-assembling will probably be the
dominant factor.
Graham
imaf...@gmail.com
Am I sure it's the faders? Subs 1 and 2 drop in and out at random. When
they're out and I slide the faders up and down they come back. There's
no crackling. Does it sound like the faders to you?
KZ
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
> imaf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It's time for new faders on my 1604-VLZ so I called my local rep (I'm
> > in Toronto) for a quote on the parts. They told me replacement faders
> > for this model were about CAN$20 a pop. I damn near had a conniption. I
> > mean, OK, I expected to be gouged, but CAN$420 for new faders on a
> > $1500 mixer?
>
> Same reason why pistons can cost $250 a piece for a $3,000 car engine.
> They cost more when you don't buy them by the thousand. Besides, faders
> are both important and not really cheap to make. That sounds like a
> pretty fair price for an exact replacement to me.
Well, actually in this case it's because Mackie's making a huge 'mark up' on
the price they pay themselves. It's quite outrageous in fact. I presume it's
intended to discourage ppl from repairing their stuff and encourage them to
buy new.
> > Ok, enough melodrama. Does anyone know where to find wholesale or
> > cheaper equivalent faders for this board?
>
> I'm sure you can get something from Digi-Key that's the correct value,
> but it won't fit the holes in the chassis exactly.
Actually, in this case it probably will. The main problem with replacement
faders is that the shaft detail may be different, resulting perhaps in the
need to use a different control knob.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
> Besides, faders
> are both important and not really cheap to make.
I doubt Mackie pays more than 50 cents for them in manufacturing quantities.
It's not like it's a Penny and Giles part in there.
Graham
Mike Rivers
imaf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Am I sure it's the faders? Subs 1 and 2 drop in and out at random. When
> they're out and I slide the faders up and down they come back. There's
> no crackling. Does it sound like the faders to you?
It could be, or it could be something circuit-wise. I assume that
you're talking about when you move the subgroup faders, the subs come
back, not when you move some channel faders. If you can move the fader
slowly and find that the signal drops out at a specific point along the
fader travel, it's probably a dead spot on the fader. If you just have
to goose it to get the signal back, it's probalby a capacitor somewhere
after the fader.
It's really hard to tell without probing around on the inside.
Laurence Payne
That sounds like the ribbon cable thing.
Mike Rivers
Pooh Bear wrote:
> Well, actually in this case it's because Mackie's making a huge 'mark up' on
> the price they pay themselves.
But this is typical of parts, particularly original replacement parts.
The pistons cost $5 when they build the engine, but $250 when you have
to go to the parts counter and buy a replacement. It's the same $5
piston.
Mike Rivers
Pooh Bear wrote:
> I doubt Mackie pays more than 50 cents for them in manufacturing quantities.
> It's not like it's a Penny and Giles part in there.
What difference does it make what they pay? If you want to get a fader
from another source and make it work, that's fine. But it's not you
doing the work in this case.
Unless someone has actually replaced a 1604 VLZ fader with something
from the open market and can supply a stock number, we probalby should
all hold our peace and let the original poster stew about this himself.
As I recall, they're soldered directly to the circuit board. He'll need
a good solder extractor to remove them without damage. There's probably
too much copper area to do the job with solder wick.
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
In both instances it pays to go ( if you can ) to an independent. In the case of
the car to a motor factors, in this case to an independent components distributor
like Digikey.
The manufacturer offers the assurance you'll get *exactly* the correct part of
course ( usually ).
The Digikey site had what I expect are the right faders ( electrically ) for
around $3-4 ea,
Graham
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > I doubt Mackie pays more than 50 cents for them in manufacturing quantities.
> > It's not like it's a Penny and Giles part in there.
>
> What difference does it make what they pay? If you want to get a fader
> from another source and make it work, that's fine. But it's not you
> doing the work in this case.
I just fancied illustrating Mackie's greed. I've bought similar replacement parts
from Soundcraft and whilst pricey, they're much more reasonably priced, around £3
ea from memory.
> Unless someone has actually replaced a 1604 VLZ fader with something
> from the open market and can supply a stock number, we probalby should
> all hold our peace and let the original poster stew about this himself.
> As I recall, they're soldered directly to the circuit board. He'll need
> a good solder extractor to remove them without damage. There's probably
> too much copper area to do the job with solder wick.
You're right about it being tricky to replace. It's a fiddly job best only
attempted by someone with excellent soldering skills and all the right tools. The
danger of damaging the pcb is quite high. I find it necessary to use both a
'solder sucker' and wick to do the job properly. It helps a lot btw to simply cut
things like the mechanical retaining lugs soldered in the pcb with fine shears
before attempting to desolder and then remove those bits individually later.
Graham
Scott Dorsey
Wait. How about ribbon connector sleeping sickness? It could behave
like that.
--scott
George Gleason
"Mike Rivers" <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:1146612574.2...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
more the reason to sell this low end stuff off to a less critical user once
it starts acting up
I voice in on just dust binning it and getting either another cheap ass
mixer, behringer 3242 are 299$ right now
or getting a decent product but to spend time and money fixing what was a
pos when sold as new is anti-productive
George
>
hank alrich
> You paid $1500 for a 1604 VLZ? Man, you can get them for $849 all day
> long on MF.
He's talking Canadian dollars.
--
ha
moby
Mike Rivers wrote:
> imaf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It's time for new faders on my 1604-VLZ so I called my local rep (I'm
> > in Toronto) for a quote on the parts. They told me replacement faders
> > for this model were about CAN$20 a pop. I damn near had a conniption. I
> > mean, OK, I expected to be gouged, but CAN$420 for new faders on a
> > $1500 mixer?
>
> Same reason why pistons can cost $250 a piece for a $3,000 car engine.
> They cost more when you don't buy them by the thousand. Besides, faders
> are both important and not really cheap to make. That sounds like a
> pretty fair price for an exact replacement to me.
Sometimes fader prices make no sense at all. Replacement 60mm ones for
the JBL
"Musicmix", the closest thing a mixer can get to being a toy without
being made
by Fisher Price (made by Phier Meggitt) cost about $40 each here, and
they go
bad after a couple of years, Wheras the 100mm ones which A&H use in the
GLs and Wizzes etc (made by Alps) cost less than $20 and last damn near
forever. I kinda wonder about the cleanablilty of the CP faders used in
the Yam
PM4000 (having recently re-fadered one at the request of the owner and
been left
with a bucket full of pull outs).
M
Arny Krueger
It does in fact cost a lot to handle a single object in a stock of a large
number of different kinds of objects. Everybody in retail is trying to
reduce the number of different items on hand. Merchandising is migrating
towards a relatively small number of very large highly-automated warehouses,
such as those used by Amazon or Digi-Key.
Michael Putrino
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e369r3$do1$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Also try Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/). They have quite a few replacement
faders, but I have no idea if they have the ones you are looking for.
Mike
hank alrich
> to spend time and money fixing what was a
> pos when sold as new is anti-productive
For some reason Tonebarge replaced all the faders in his original 1604.
Perhaps his and his alone is not a piece of shit? Or does he just know
how to track, mix, and master?
--
ha
George Gleason
"hank alrich" <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1her5jp.1a64vcf17dkh4uN%walk...@thegrid.net...
your opinion of Piece of shit and mine differ
when I am buying a piece of shit I perfer not to pay premimum price for it
Peace
george
jakdedert
something (in this case a piston designed for one particular engine) and
make it available for years in case a customer needs one. That does
cost money.
In the case of this relatively cheap mixer, however, we're talking about
an outsourced, plain vanilla, off the shelf generic part...a simple
potentiometer. The component was not specifically designed for this
device, is used in many others and will not be obsoleted with that
particular model mixer.
In such cases it really is greed--IMHO--which drives astronomic
replacement prices. The manufacturer doesn't even need to stock the
spare. It can order as needed and drop-ship directly to the user from
the supplier.
jak
Scott Dorsey
>
>In the case of this relatively cheap mixer, however, we're talking about
>an outsourced, plain vanilla, off the shelf generic part...a simple
>potentiometer. The component was not specifically designed for this
>device, is used in many others and will not be obsoleted with that
>particular model mixer.
>
>In such cases it really is greed--IMHO--which drives astronomic
>replacement prices. The manufacturer doesn't even need to stock the
>spare. It can order as needed and drop-ship directly to the user from
>the supplier.
Some it may be greed. But some of it may be the cost of keeping a
bag of seldom-sold replacement parts on the shelf and the OUTRAGEOUS
amount of tax on spare parts inventory.
Some time during the second Reagan term, the laws on taxing spare parts
inventory changed dramatically and a lot of companies as a result decided
to just junk all their less-common spares. Very depressing.
But for thing that don't fail often, or for parts that aren't really
cost-effective to replace, or for parts that appear in only one product,
it becomes very difficult for a manufacturer to justify keeping any
spares on the shelf at all today.
--scott
Mike Rivers
jakdedert wrote:
> In the case of this relatively cheap mixer, however, we're talking about
> an outsourced, plain vanilla, off the shelf generic part...a simple
> potentiometer.
Are you absolutely sure of this? If so, then you should be able to
provide a part number and guarantee that it will fit. Mackie has used a
lot of custom parts in their mixers over the years. When you ship tens
of thousands of mixers annually, you can have a manufacturer make a
fader to your specifications and, because of the quantity you buy, sell
it cheaper than the off-the-shelf part.
I really don't know what's in a 1640 VLZ, but I can tell you that the
Penny & Giles faders in the dxb are like no other Penny & Giles fader.
jakdedert
> jakdedert wrote:
>
>> In the case of this relatively cheap mixer, however, we're talking about
>> an outsourced, plain vanilla, off the shelf generic part...a simple
>> potentiometer.
>
> Are you absolutely sure of this? If so, then you should be able to
> provide a part number and guarantee that it will fit. Mackie has used a
> lot of custom parts in their mixers over the years. When you ship tens
> of thousands of mixers annually, you can have a manufacturer make a
> fader to your specifications and, because of the quantity you buy, sell
> it cheaper than the off-the-shelf part.
Admittedly, no; but my money would still be on off-the-shelf. This is a
$1500 (List) mixer...available on the street for less than $900
according to the thread.
I earlier suggested buying ONE and comparing. Perhaps someone here
knows, but he hasn't spoken up if so. What would be the advantage in
spec'ing custom pots at this price point? Thousands of pots, yes, but
if the difference is only pennies per, it still adds up.
Even in the quantities of which we speak, off the shelf is still going
to be cheaper. Design work and tooling costs. If Alps would sell me
ten thousand custom faders for X dollars, I'm willing to bet that they
would sell me ten thousand similar, but off-the-shelf, standard parts,
out of their inventory for less.
'How much' less is open to speculation; but they'd be crazy not to...
>
> I really don't know what's in a 1640 VLZ, but I can tell you that the
> Penny & Giles faders in the dxb are like no other Penny & Giles fader.
>
In what way? In any case, we're not talking P&G, anyway...but I'm
willing to stand corrected if anyone knows for sure.
jak
Mike Rivers
jakdedert wrote:
> What would be the advantage in
> spec'ing custom pots at this price point? Thousands of pots, yes, but
> if the difference is only pennies per, it still adds up.
You can design a product around off the shelf parts, but then you're
stuck with certain dimensions, terminal layouts, values, and other
stuff too fierce to mention. It may be that by using a custom part they
can cut costs in other places. When you're building thousands of units
a month, you have to look at total product cost, not just parts cost.
> > I really don't know what's in a 1640 VLZ, but I can tell you that the
> > Penny & Giles faders in the dxb are like no other Penny & Giles fader.
> In what way? In any case, we're not talking P&G, anyway...but I'm
> willing to stand corrected if anyone knows for sure.
They're P&G, but they're a design licesnsed to Mackie and manufactured
by Mackie's sources in China. So there!
The 1640VLZ does not have P&G faders, but Scott may be correct about
Alps.
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
> jakdedert wrote:
>
> > What would be the advantage in
> > spec'ing custom pots at this price point? Thousands of pots, yes, but
> > if the difference is only pennies per, it still adds up.
>
> You can design a product around off the shelf parts, but then you're
> stuck with certain dimensions, terminal layouts, values, and other
> stuff too fierce to mention. It may be that by using a custom part they
> can cut costs in other places. When you're building thousands of units
> a month, you have to look at total product cost, not just parts cost.
You have to have a damn good reason to use truly 'custom' parts.
When you're buying by the thousand or tens of thousand you do have more
flexibility in being able to obtain the rarer versions of standard parts
though, such as certain resistance tapers for pots.
Bear in mind that the standard product was likely designed to fit your
application in the first place.
I've never seen a custom fader in any of the lower cost mixers. They all use
the stock catalogue parts.
Graham
Mike Rivers
Pooh Bear wrote:
> I've never seen a custom fader in any of the lower cost mixers. They all use
> the stock catalogue parts.
You could make this whole argument go away by supplying a stock catalog
number. If you don't have one for Mackie, name a mass-produced mixer
that you know and give us a reference to the stock fader that's used in
it.
And if you're just theorizing, back off.
jakdedert
your VLZ, which (if I understand) is a more expensive unit. I have no
reason to doubt your word. If you say it's got P&G's, why would I
contradict you? In any case, it's only peripherally related to the
discussion at hand.
> The 1640VLZ does not have P&G faders, but Scott may be correct about
> Alps.
..or Panasonic, as one responder seemed to recall.
I don't understand why this thread is getting heated. It seems that no
responder has direct experience with the unit in question, so all is
theoretical at this point.
If someone can say for sure, I am certainly willing to be educated.
It's still my feeling that at this price point, it would make sense for
Mackie to use OTS parts; but I'm willing to concede that they might not
have done so.
OTOH, from this distance, I would lean toward the ribbon connector issue
that some have discussed in reference to this(?) thread. If it was my
desk, I'd have had it opened up by now, and know for sure.
I'm not going to open up one of my (non-Mackie) mixers to supply a part
number. Perhaps someone has a service manual?
jak
jak
hank alrich
> In the case of this relatively cheap mixer, however, we're talking about
> an outsourced, plain vanilla, off the shelf generic part...a simple
> potentiometer. The component was not specifically designed for this
> device, is used in many others and will not be obsoleted with that
> particular model mixer.
>
> In such cases it really is greed--IMHO--which drives astronomic
> replacement prices. The manufacturer doesn't even need to stock the
> spare. It can order as needed and drop-ship directly to the user from
> the supplier.
But just try and ask Alps to ship one or two or a couple dozen faders
fader to an owner of a inexpensive console. They're just not set up to
work on a scale that small.
--
ha
jakdedert
Of course not, that's why there are distributers.
jak
>
> --
> ha
>
Pooh Bear
jakdedert wrote:
> I'm not going to open up one of my (non-Mackie) mixers to supply a part
> number.
You're unlikely to find anything other than an abbreviated one on the part
anyway.
> Perhaps someone has a service manual?
Typically these just give the manufacturer's internal part number only not the
vendor's.
Graham
Pooh Bear
hank alrich wrote:
That's why they have distributors.
Graham
Arny Krueger
> But just try and ask Alps to ship one or two or a couple
> dozen faders fader to an owner of a inexpensive console.
> They're just not set up to work on a scale that small.
Your point is well-taken. For example, log taper pots are getting to be
very hard to find, particularly ones with more than one or two sections and
with larger diameter elements. They are in the Alps catalog, but the minimum
order is 1200 pieces.
http://www.potentiometer.com/select_Alps.cfm?session_num=2006042203260216
Mike Rivers
Arny Krueger wrote:
> Your point is well-taken. For example, log taper pots are getting to be
> very hard to find, particularly ones with more than one or two sections and
> with larger diameter elements. They are in the Alps catalog, but the minimum
> order is 1200 pieces.
This suggests that no distributor will stock it.
Face it, dood, you're scrood. Maybe you'll be lucky and the problem
really isn't the fader.
Pooh Bear
Mike Rivers wrote:
> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > I've never seen a custom fader in any of the lower cost mixers. They all use
> > the stock catalogue parts.
>
> You could make this whole argument go away by supplying a stock catalog
> number.
I already posted a link to Digikey's site listing Panasonic faders of the type I
believe are correct.
> If you don't have one for Mackie, name a mass-produced mixer
> that you know and give us a reference to the stock fader that's used in
> it.
>
> And if you're just theorizing, back off.
My comment is based on personal experience.
I cannot recall ever seeing 'custom electronic components' in any audio mixer
ever. The quantities simply don't make it viable. I've already explained that
manufacturers tend to have access to the rarer options that are available though.
Notably in the case of pots and faders that would include fader tapers other than
the typical 15% log and antilog laws for example and the shaft details to suit
one's own panel hardware.
Graham
Mike Rivers
Pooh Bear wrote:
> I already posted a link to Digikey's site listing Panasonic faders of the type I
> believe are correct.
We'll never know for sure until someone tries, however.
> My comment is based on personal experience.
My comments are based on knowing how these things are built.
> I cannot recall ever seeing 'custom electronic components' in any audio mixer
> ever.
I've been told that the pushbutton switches on my Soundcraft 600 aren't
anyone's stock. Maybe they were 20 years ago.
I can tell you that my Ampex MM-1100 had rocker switches on the
transport control box that looked like a standard Oak model. They said
Oak on them, and even had a part number, but I couldn't find it in any
catalog or distributor. So I called Oak and asked where I could get
replacements. They looked up the drawing and said "Oh, that's a custom
Ampex part. You have to get it from Ampex."
It turns out that the mounting dimensions were different from the stock
switch that used the same mechanism. I guess they just thought it was
important enough to make the box the size they wanted it, and they
bought enough switches so that if there was any additional cost, it was
minimal.
Arny Krueger
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> Your point is well-taken. For example, log taper pots
>> are getting to be very hard to find, particularly ones
>> with more than one or two sections and with larger
>> diameter elements. They are in the Alps catalog, but the
>> minimum order is 1200 pieces.
>
> This suggests that no distributor will stock it.
Agreed. In fact every once in a while someone bites the bullet and orders up
a bunch for a special piece of gear or to have something to sell retail with
a monster mark-up.
For example NHTPro PVC's have an Alps 4-section 10K log taper pot, and sold
at clearance and on eBay for $75. Compared to a minimum order with Alps (I
think Alps wanted about $12 each last time I worked it out - minium order:
$14,400), its not a bad deal if your quantity requirements are very small.
> Face it, dood, you're scrood. Maybe you'll be lucky and
> the problem really isn't the fader.
This is one reason why the price of replacement parts is high. Also consider
what happens when you have a policy of providing parts for say 10 years
after introduction or last production run, and you run out of stock after 6
years.