Event Opal studio monitors - Finally
Ty Ford
http://www.vimeo.com/3218424
Regards,
Ty Ford
--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA
Unknown
wrote:
>
>http://www.vimeo.com/3218424
>
>Regards,
>
>Ty Ford
>
So impressive packaging, and a nice bag - but how do they sound?
Even nicer packaging here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTpBzJXCy5M&feature=related
d
Peter Larsen
> http://www.vimeo.com/3218424
No, no, no, no, no. Ty you do NOT EVER take a device out of the cardboard
box like that. Upside down and lift the box off.
> Ty Ford
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Flatulent Father Flannigan
I find it disturbing.
"Ty Ford" <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C5BF0BFB...@News.Individual.NET...
Peter Larsen
> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
Great video of how not do do it, including forgetting to putting it on a
suitable height table instead of on the floor.
> I find it disturbing.
So will Ty's back if he doesn't learn to do things wiser. He didn't even
lift it right as pr. Roadie standards, i.e. one hand low and one hand high
and close to the chest. Also he had the weight too far away from his body
when setting the box down initially.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Flatulent Father Flannigan
"Peter Larsen" <dig...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:015dac16$0$21761$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Flatulent Father Flannigan <xr...@xt8934hgf02945.com> wrote:
>
>> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
>
> Great video of how not do do it, including forgetting to putting it on a
> suitable height table instead of on the floor.
If you need a video to figure out how to open a box.. that's just sad.
>
>> I find it disturbing.
>
> So will Ty's back if he doesn't learn to do things wiser. He didn't even
> lift it right as pr. Roadie standards, i.e. one hand low and one hand high
> and close to the chest. Also he had the weight too far away from his body
> when setting the box down initially.
Ladies and gentlemen.. we all have too much time on our hands. The end is
near.
:)
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>
Neil Rutman
Neil R
"Ty Ford" <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C5BF0BFB...@News.Individual.NET...
>
drichard
cardboard box?
On Feb 16, 11:26 am, Ty Ford <tyreef...@comcast.net> wrote:
> http://www.vimeo.com/3218424
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
> --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
> Acting and Voiceover Demoshttp://www.tyford.com
> Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA
Ty Ford
(in article <499ba502.1027753437@localhost>):
Thanks for the compliment.
Ty Ford
(in article
<a804d0c9-ef9e-4558...@m15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>):
> So what kind of microphone works best for recording the opening of a
> cardboard box?
You can see them behind me. Neumann D-01 and AEA R84. :)
Regards,
Ty Ford
--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA
Gene E. Bloch
unpack and set up a non-flushing toilet.
*Please* don't ask why... :-)
Although there's probably an answer buried somewhere in the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV).
--
Gene E. Bloch letters0x40blochg0x2Ecom
Mike Rivers
> http://www.vimeo.com/3218424 (video of Ty unpacking a speaker)
Geez, don't you know how to get something heavy out of a carton?
1. Cut the tape on the top. You could cut the tape on the bottom but
then some boob is
going to ask why you opened it upside down.
2. Open the flaps and hold or tape them clear of the open end of the box.
3. Turn the box over so the open end is on the floor
4. Lift up the box (the part that's considerably lighter than what's
inside, usually)
5. Move the goodie to where you want it. Turn it over if you don't like
how it looks upside down.
So does it sound any better the video that I listened to on my computer
speakers last Summer?
--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
(mriv...@d-and-d.com)
Soundhaspriority
We regret that your claim for shipping damage must be denied.
Strangely, we found a video on the web which documents that you opened the
box incorrectly. However, we are very impressed with the audio. In fact, we
would like to retain you at your hourly rate for our new customer service
documentary entitled, "How to open a box without killing yourself."
Win some, lose some,
UPS Customer Service
Ty Ford
(in article <11tvk2nogdp3h$.1ju5l2tp...@40tude.net>):
> Don't complain - a couple of months ago I watched a set of videos on how to
> unpack and set up a non-flushing toilet.
>
> *Please* don't ask why... :-)
>
> Although there's probably an answer buried somewhere in the Diagnostic and
> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV).
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:01 -0800, Flatulent Father Flannigan wrote:
>
>> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
>>
>> I find it disturbing.
Dear FFF,
Take the choir boy off your lap and listen up. The way in which the goods are
packed makes a big difference in how well they will survive and also says a
lot about the packer.
BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
test a system? I have some that are my favorites, but I'm always open to
more.
Thanks,
Don Pearce
wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:51:32 -0500, Gene E. Bloch wrote
>(in article <11tvk2nogdp3h$.1ju5l2tp...@40tude.net>):
>
>> Don't complain - a couple of months ago I watched a set of videos on how to
>> unpack and set up a non-flushing toilet.
>>
>> *Please* don't ask why... :-)
>>
>> Although there's probably an answer buried somewhere in the Diagnostic and
>> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV).
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:01 -0800, Flatulent Father Flannigan wrote:
>>
>>> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
>>>
>>> I find it disturbing.
>
>
>Dear FFF,
>
>Take the choir boy off your lap and listen up. The way in which the goods are
>packed makes a big difference in how well they will survive and also says a
>lot about the packer.
>
>BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
>test a system? I have some that are my favorites, but I'm always open to
>more.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ty Ford
>
Absolutely. Get hold of Fires, a CD by Nerina Pallot. Just a girl
singer/songwriter and her piano, but incredibly demanding. The last
track, NickIndia, has good solid bass down to below 20Hz, and it
really shows up the difference between real bass and the home cinema
kind.
d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
mkuj...@gmail.com
>
> snip <
>
> Dear FFF,
>
> Take the choir boy off your lap and listen up. The way in which the goods are
> packed makes a big difference in how well they will survive and also says a
> lot about the packer.
Ty, search this forum for posts by "nappy" (aka FFF) and you'll see
why it's best to ignore him.
Every once in awhile he does offer good advice but unfortunately those
times are few and far between :-(
Mike
David McCall
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:51:32 -0500, Gene E. Bloch wrote
> (in article <11tvk2nogdp3h$.1ju5l2tp...@40tude.net>):
>
>> Don't complain - a couple of months ago I watched a set of videos on how
>> to
>> unpack and set up a non-flushing toilet.
>>
>> *Please* don't ask why... :-)
>>
>> Although there's probably an answer buried somewhere in the Diagnostic
>> and
>> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV).
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:01 -0800, Flatulent Father Flannigan wrote:
>>
>>> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
>>>
>>> I find it disturbing.
>
>
> Dear FFF,
>
> Take the choir boy off your lap and listen up. The way in which the goods
> are
> packed makes a big difference in how well they will survive and also says
> a
> lot about the packer.
>
> BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
> test a system? I have some that are my favorites, but I'm always open to
> more.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ty Ford
>
visitors.
If you set the first part for a nice hot leven, It will scare you out of the
room when the song actually starts :-)
David
Ty Ford
(in article
<a4299dc1-478f-47f0...@u1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>):
Thanks Mike. Oh, him. We've actually had a few nice back and forths, but he
can suffer from waxy buildup.
Regards,
Ty
PS Those indian drums in the Zachary Richard CD are down around 45 Hz, and
even at low volume they are right there.
hank alrich
> BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
> test a system?
Not necessarily a ball buster, but I like Little Feat's "Representing
the Mambo". I also use the Sound Check CD and a Stereophile CD I have
for trying out playback systems.
--
ha
shut up and play your guitar
Flatulent Father Flannigan
"Ty Ford" <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote in message >> Mike
>
> Thanks Mike. Oh, him. We've actually had a few nice back and forths, but
> he
> can suffer from waxy buildup.
>
> Regards,
well.. at least I am not making videos of me unpacking boxes.
The end is near.
Mike who?
Mike Rieves
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:51:32 -0500, Gene E. Bloch wrote
> (in article <11tvk2nogdp3h$.1ju5l2tp...@40tude.net>):
>
>> Don't complain - a couple of months ago I watched a set of videos on how
>> to
>> unpack and set up a non-flushing toilet.
>>
>> *Please* don't ask why... :-)
>>
>> Although there's probably an answer buried somewhere in the Diagnostic
>> and
>> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV).
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:01 -0800, Flatulent Father Flannigan wrote:
>>
>>> what have we come to when someone makes videos of unpacking boxes. ?
>>>
>>> I find it disturbing.
>
>
> Dear FFF,
>
> Take the choir boy off your lap and listen up. The way in which the goods
> are
> packed makes a big difference in how well they will survive and also says
> a
> lot about the packer.
>
> BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
> test a system? I have some that are my favorites, but I'm always open to
> more.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ty Ford
>
separation and clarity, and you can clearly hear the words they're singing,
the speakers have great midrange clarity. Many speakers don't handle choir
well at all.
hank alrich
We could address your attention span, but it doesn't.
david correia
"David McCall" <mccal...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > BTW, folks, do you have any particularly good ball busters CDs you use to
> > test a system? I have some that are my favorites, but I'm always open to
> > more.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ty Ford
> >
> I used to like Money For Nothing as performed by Dire Straits to impress
> visitors.
> If you set the first part for a nice hot leven, It will scare you out of the
> room when the song actually starts :-)
>
> David
I use about half the cuts on Dire Straits "On Every Street" whenever I
have my monitoring worked on. Damn nice recording. Real nice bottom.
David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Paul Stamler
well-buried man's voice). Not hugely demanding, but I know what it's
supposed to sound like, since they're both women I've gone out with (not
simultaneously), and I know what they sound like when singing unmiked.
For bass I sometimes use a remaster of "The Band", or a Jesse Winchester
recording with very nice bass on it.
Peace,
Paul (never went out with the guitar player, but know what he sounds like
too)
Ty Ford
(in article <Z9Mml.5260$v8....@bignews5.bellsouth.net>):
> separation and clarity, and you can clearly hear the words they're singing,
> the speakers have great midrange clarity. Many speakers don't handle choir
> well at all.
Thanks Mike (and others)
I found the original Pink Panther Theme (Henry Mancini) this morning is a
good one particularly for horns and bass, even though I can hear the tape
hiss, I don't much care. The glock (or triangle) and string parts towards the
end are particularly well done.
Regards,
Ty Ford
(in article <noemail-2E442C...@forte.easynews.com>):
> I use about half the cuts on Dire Straits "On Every Street" whenever I
> have my monitoring worked on. Damn nice recording. Real nice bottom.
>
>
> David Correia
> www.Celebrationsound.com
thanks for that David. What i continue to hear is a noticeable difference
among CDs. Even the stereo field. It seems obvious that different mixers had
different monitor/sweet spot distance ratios set up when they mixed. If
something doesn't pop right in, I move forward or back slightly until I hit
the right distance and bang, there it is.
Regards,
Flatulent Father Flannigan
"hank alrich" <walk...@nv.net> wrote in message
news:1ivb2lu.ihzz7kxq4k3gN%walk...@nv.net...
>
> We could address your attention span, but it doesn't.
>
allzheimer's? Alcohol?
Flatulent Father Flannigan
"Flatulent Father Flannigan" <xr...@xt8934hgf02945.com> wrote in message
news:MzWml.10826$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
I guess the girls here still can't take a little ribbing ..
David McCall
>
> "Flatulent Father Flannigan" <xr...@xt8934hgf02945.com> wrote in message
> news:MzWml.10826$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
>
> I guess the girls here still can't take a little ribbing ..
Flatulent Father Flannigan
"David McCall" <mccal...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jpXml.138$tw4...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Lisa Sherman has been posting important, relevant information for years!
David McCall
Sorry Lisa, I must have missed your post.
Actually, I was just being sarcastic.
I would assume that there are some women here (maybe even girls :-)
I just haven't noticed any, but then I don't read everything.
David
Laurence Payne
wrote:
>I found the original Pink Panther Theme (Henry Mancini) this morning is a
>good one particularly for horns and bass, even though I can hear the tape
>hiss, I don't much care. The glock (or triangle) and string parts towards the
>end are particularly well done.
Maybe not ALL that well done if you can't tell whether it's a glock.
or a triangle? :-)
Flatulent Father Flannigan
Seven Hail Mary's and a 40 oz.
Lisa is the spammer's name that posts video links here. I suspect her real
name is 'stupid'
you're too nice.
>
> David
>
Mike Rieves
"Laurence Payne" <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pe6pp4ppfd9legl4i...@4ax.com...
You beat me to it, that's exactly what i was going to say. Since you
wouldn't mistake one for the other live, you shouldn't on a good set of
monitors either.
Jay Ts
I think I could easily mistake one for the other in a recording, depending
on a large number of significant factors. Among those is the simple fact
that glockenspiels and triangles are physically similar (bars or rods
of metal, struck percussively) and I have little familiarity with either.
I don't hear them played very much.
Live, you can see the instrument being played. The visual 'documentation'
leaves less to the imagination. Recordings allow for a lot of
alteration of sounds. Even if it sounds like a triangle on the recording,
who knows? Mancini's character was playful and entertaining, not serious.
If they tried using a triangle in the studio and it didn't "work", they
might have substituted something else. (Maybe even taking a glock tine
off the instrument and holding or suspending it a certain way -- who
knows?)
Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php
Unknown
wrote:
Glockenspiel and triangle? There is no similarity - the glock is a
medium volume instrument that will blend with an orchestra, while the
triangle is a fearsomely loud beast that will cut clearly through a
symphony orchestra going flat out.
d
Ty Ford
(in article <pe6pp4ppfd9legl4i...@4ax.com>):
may be both! Orchestral hitting thing nomencalture is not my main focus. The
sounds are.
Ty Ford
(in article <lv5nl.5800$b9....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>):
JESUS guys! I don't have deep experience with either. Pound another fucking
nail in. Once you get over trying to beat me up, why don't you get ahold of
yourselves, listen to the track and tell me what the fuck it is.
I wish I had been your older brother when we were kids.
Ty Ford
(in article <49a781e9.1280918781@localhost>):
well that depends a LOT on what you hit it with, no?
Ty
Unknown
wrote:
>> Glockenspiel and triangle? There is no similarity - the glock is a
>> medium volume instrument that will blend with an orchestra, while the
>> triangle is a fearsomely loud beast that will cut clearly through a
>> symphony orchestra going flat out.
>>
>> d
>
>well that depends a LOT on what you hit it with, no?
>
A triangle? You hit it with the steel rod to make it go "ting".
d
philicorda
Metal head mallets are used with glockenspiel on occasion.
I'd imagine that would cut through an orchestra pretty well too.
Flatulent Father Flannigan
> fucking
> nail in. Once you get over trying to beat me up, why don't you get ahold
> of
> yourselves, listen to the track and tell me what the fuck it is.
>
> I wish I had been your older brother when we were kids.
>
> Ty Ford
>
Ty I don't remember you being so profane! It's f 'in great !
I think they're just ribbin ya ..
I don't really listen to anyone elses music much here in my studio. Only
what I compose. That's how I chose the JBLs in the room now. I couldn't
think of any single recording that would work for that analysis anyway. Or
any group of recordings. Except noise, a sweep and some pulses into an
analyzer!
It take so long to evaluate speakers for me.. I have to let them sink in
over a number of projects and see how far I have to stretch things to make
it sound good on most monitors, in the car and out of an iPod or whatever.
When I buy spkrs I take some of my best mixes with me and pick the ones that
sound like they should. On my last venture I really wanted to like the
Genelecs and the Adam(s) and the rest.. but the JBLS were right in the
pocket.
Then.. I bought another console! One curve after another.
Mike Rieves
Lighten up Ty, we were just poking a little fun at you. BTW, there are both
triangle and glock in the part toward the end, and it's very easy to tell
which is which on all three sets of monitors I use, EV Sentry 100A, M-Audio
BX5a, and JBL Control 25, and yeah, I know the Control 25s aren't really
monitors, but I find them useful as nearfields on occasion.
Just so you know the tringle is doing the single high note and the glock is
playing a melody line. :-)
Chris Hornbeck
wrote:
>Just so you know the tringle is doing the single high note and the glock is
>playing a melody line. :-)
To my way of thinking, a Tringle is a highly processed food
substitute and a Glock is a highly processed gun substitute,
but I'd make allowances for the Smith & Wesson M&P versions
of the latter. Never accept any substitutes for real food.
Others' opinions may differ, but whatdda they know?
Much thanks,
Chris Hornbeck
Jenn
Jay Ts <UseWebsi...@example.com> wrote:
> Mike Rieves wrote:
> > "Laurence Payne" <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:pe6pp4ppfd9legl4i...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:11:20 -0500, Ty Ford <tyre...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I found the original Pink Panther Theme (Henry Mancini) this morning is
> >>>a good one particularly for horns and bass, even though I can hear the
> >>>tape hiss, I don't much care. The glock (or triangle) and string parts
> >>>towards the end are particularly well done.
> >>
> >> Maybe not ALL that well done if you can't tell whether it's a glock. or
> >> a triangle? :-)
> >
> > You beat me to it, that's exactly what i was going to say. Since you
> > wouldn't mistake one for the other live, you shouldn't on a good set of
> > monitors either.
>
> I think I could easily mistake one for the other in a recording, depending
> on a large number of significant factors. Among those is the simple fact
> that glockenspiels and triangles are physically similar (bars or rods
> of metal, struck percussively) and I have little familiarity with either.
> I don't hear them played very much.
Triangles don't have a definite pitch. Glocks play specific pitches.
Ty Ford
(in article <49a89e06.1288114796@localhost>):
Maybe in your world, and that's OK, but elsewhere anything goes to get the
"right" sound.
Ty Ford
(in article <JAmnl.5645$%54....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>):
> Ty I don't remember you being so profane! It's f 'in great !
>
> I think they're just ribbin ya ..
>
> I don't really listen to anyone elses music much here in my studio. Only
> what I compose. That's how I chose the JBLs in the room now. I couldn't
> think of any single recording that would work for that analysis anyway. Or
> any group of recordings. Except noise, a sweep and some pulses into an
> analyzer!
>
> It take so long to evaluate speakers for me.. I have to let them sink in
> over a number of projects and see how far I have to stretch things to make
> it sound good on most monitors, in the car and out of an iPod or whatever.
>
> When I buy spkrs I take some of my best mixes with me and pick the ones that
> sound like they should. On my last venture I really wanted to like the
> Genelecs and the Adam(s) and the rest.. but the JBLS were right in the
> pocket.
>
> Then.. I bought another console! One curve after another.
Meyers, Adams and Genelecs.
I think the Opal brings something new to the table. I think you need to put
it on your short list. I'm hearing a lot more variation from CD to CD. That
says, "transparency" to me.
I would have written any monitor with only a 7-8" LF driver off in the past.
The Opal has a very nice LF.
Still listening for the tragic flaw. Don't hear one yet.
Regards,
Ty Ford
(in article <hDpnl.6119$19....@bignews2.bellsouth.net>):
>> JESUS guys! I don't have deep experience with either. Pound another
>> fucking
>> nail in. Once you get over trying to beat me up, why don't you get ahold
>> of
>> yourselves, listen to the track and tell me what the fuck it is.
>>
>> I wish I had been your older brother when we were kids.
>>
>> Ty Ford
>
> Lighten up Ty, we were just poking a little fun at you. BTW, there are both
> triangle and glock in the part toward the end, and it's very easy to tell
> which is which on all three sets of monitors I use, EV Sentry 100A, M-Audio
> BX5a, and JBL Control 25, and yeah, I know the Control 25s aren't really
> monitors, but I find them useful as nearfields on occasion.
> Just so you know the tringle is doing the single high note and the glock is
> playing a melody line. :-)
Mike,
Sorry, over here the comments just translate as "pissy." Thanks for
confirming. I thought I heard both in there but was trying to be casual about
it. But you can really hear the wood in some of those hits and metallic ping
in others.
The bass is, and I've never used this word before, luscious. Not all of the
Mancini tracks on that CD sound as good, but Pink Panther is exceptional. The
horns (a good test of a system) also sound very "real" to me.
I have 100A on one station and know how to mix on them to deal with that
thickness/darkness they have. The Opals are several TIMES above the 100A.
It's like taking a thick towel off and turning on a sub. Exponentially more
open. Obviously more complete in the LF.
I continue to have my skepticism eroded.
Still waiting for the opportunity to apply the brotherly whack or pink belly.
Regards,
Don Pearce
wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:00:38 -0500, Don Pearce wrote
>(in article <49a89e06.1288114796@localhost>):
>
>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:20:23 -0500, Ty Ford <tyre...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Glockenspiel and triangle? There is no similarity - the glock is a
>>>> medium volume instrument that will blend with an orchestra, while the
>>>> triangle is a fearsomely loud beast that will cut clearly through a
>>>> symphony orchestra going flat out.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>
>>> well that depends a LOT on what you hit it with, no?
>>>
>>
>> A triangle? You hit it with the steel rod to make it go "ting".
>>
>> d
>
>Maybe in your world, and that's OK, but elsewhere anything goes to get the
>"right" sound.
>
I've seen an awful lot of symphony orchestras, Ty, and I've never ever
seen the triangle struck with anything other than the little steel
rod.
d
Laurence Payne
>>Maybe in your world, and that's OK, but elsewhere anything goes to get the
>>"right" sound.
>>
>
>I've seen an awful lot of symphony orchestras, Ty, and I've never ever
>seen the triangle struck with anything other than the little steel
>rod.
It does happen though. Occasionally in the orchestra, quite
frequently in lighter music. But whether hit by metal or wood, is
quite distinguishable from a glockenspiel.
Flatulent Father Flannigan
>
you need to listen to some of my mixes. I work tragic flaws in routinely. :)
Ty Ford
(in article <49a4f536.1375970250@localhost>):
I'm positive that your account is accurate, Don. There's a lot more in the
world of music that that played by an orchestra. :)
Ty Ford
Jenn
Laurence Payne <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:25:05 GMT, sp...@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:
>
> >>Maybe in your world, and that's OK, but elsewhere anything goes to get the
> >>"right" sound.
> >>
> >
> >I've seen an awful lot of symphony orchestras, Ty, and I've never ever
> >seen the triangle struck with anything other than the little steel
> >rod.
>
> It does happen though. Occasionally in the orchestra, quite
> frequently in lighter music.
That would sure be a new one on me!
> But whether hit by metal or wood, is
> quite distinguishable from a glockenspiel.
Very true.
Jay Ts
> Laurence Payne <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >I've seen an awful lot of symphony orchestras, Ty, and I've never ever
>> >seen the triangle struck with anything other than the little steel
>> >rod.
>>
>> It does happen though. Occasionally in the orchestra, quite frequently
>> in lighter music.
>
> That would sure be a new one on me!
You asked for it! Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBupII3LH_Q
Interesting, isn't it, how life always has something new to offer?
Ok, it's not a symphony orchestra, and it's
not Henry Mancini's band playing it, but in this
recording (with typical YouTube quality), the triangle
is so low in the mix, it could have been replaced by just
about any metal object. :-)
Scott Dorsey
>
>Ok, it's not a symphony orchestra, and it's
>not Henry Mancini's band playing it, but in this
>recording (with typical YouTube quality), the triangle
>is so low in the mix, it could have been replaced by just
>about any metal object. :-)
The triangle is _very_ high frequency. The reason it seems to have no
pitch isn't that it's broadband, but that the ear can't really sense
pitch way up there.
The fundamental is a lot higher than the highest note on a glockenspiel.
Consequently, it is the first thing to disappear when audio is bandlimited....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Jenn
Jay Ts <UseWebsi...@example.com> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
> > Laurence Payne <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> >I've seen an awful lot of symphony orchestras, Ty, and I've never ever
> >> >seen the triangle struck with anything other than the little steel
> >> >rod.
> >>
> >> It does happen though. Occasionally in the orchestra, quite frequently
> >> in lighter music.
> >
> > That would sure be a new one on me!
>
> You asked for it! Watch:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBupII3LH_Q
>
> Interesting, isn't it, how life always has something new to offer?
Well, yeah, but I thought that we were speaking of orchestral playing,
not a trap set player. I bet ya a quarter that if there was another
player who didn't have to quickly switch to skins and cymbals, it
wouldn't have been played with a snare stick! ;-)
>
> Ok, it's not a symphony orchestra, and it's
> not Henry Mancini's band playing it, but in this
> recording (with typical YouTube quality), the triangle
> is so low in the mix, it could have been replaced by just
> about any metal object. :-)
Yeah.
Great to see the late great Carl Fontana, John Audino, and Conte Condoli.
Peter Larsen
> Triangles don't have a definite pitch.
What would prevent that? - it would be more precise to say that it indeed
has A specific pitch.
> Glocks play specific pitches
No, they can play multiple tones. And probably run out of steam an octave
below the triangle.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Jenn
"Peter Larsen" <dig...@hotmail.com> wrote:
OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no recognizable pitch. Each
pitch that glocks sound is a recognizable pitch.
Mike Rieves
The 100A's are what they are, in my room the bass is just fine, they're hung
in the room corners near the ceiling and they have decent response down to
30 Hz. I have a pair of 12" subs if I need more bass, but I rarely use them.
My 100A's don't sound either thick or dark, in fact, I'd describe them as
being just a hair bright. They are a bit reticent in the midrange though. I
do most of my mixing with my BX5a's and use the 100A's as a check.
> I continue to have my skepticism eroded.
>
> Still waiting for the opportunity to apply the brotherly whack or pink
> belly.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
I've heard a lot of good things about the Event Opals, when I get ready to
upgrade, I'll probably audition a pair.
Mike Rivers
> OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no recognizable pitch. Each
> pitch that glocks sound is a recognizable pitch.
You can tell the difference between a chuckwagon triangle, an orchestral
triangle, and a cajun triangle. They each have
have a different pitch (or range of pitch) - it's easy to imagine a big
one or a small one from the sound, and you'd
probably be correct. But of course they're each played differently, too.
--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
(mriv...@d-and-d.com)
Jenn
Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
>
> > OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no recognizable pitch. Each
> > pitch that glocks sound is a recognizable pitch.
>
> You can tell the difference between a chuckwagon triangle, an orchestral
> triangle, and a cajun triangle. They each have
> have a different pitch (or range of pitch) - it's easy to imagine a big
> one or a small one from the sound, and you'd
> probably be correct. But of course they're each played differently, too.
Of course. But you don't hear any specific pitch with any of those
triangles. There is no "C# triangle".
Arny Krueger
news:jennconducts-1494...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
> OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no
> recognizable pitch. Each pitch that glocks sound is a
> recognizable pitch.
The initial crash of striking a triangle is basically a burst of broadband
noise with no particular pitch, but a triangle's sustained ringing has an
exact pitch. I guess Jenn has never heard the sustained ringing of a
triangle. That takes a fair amount of hearing loss. Probably one reason why
she prefers vinyl.
hank alrich
Arny, Jennifer is a conductor and professor of music at a university in
California. She has probably heard more triangles than anyone else
reading r.a.p., unless we have a Cajun lurking.
--
ha
shut up and play your guitar
Don Pearce
wrote:
Not a chance. If you want someone who has heard more triangles than
anyone else, find yourself an infant school teacher. Do we have any of
those?
d
Jenn
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:jennconducts-1494...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>
> > OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no
> > recognizable pitch. Each pitch that glocks sound is a
> > recognizable pitch.
>
> The initial crash of striking a triangle is basically a burst of broadband
> noise with no particular pitch, but a triangle's sustained ringing has an
> exact pitch.
I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a triangle is used as
a pitched instrument. I wonder if he can name one composer, arranger,
or performer in any genre that uses a triangle for specific harmonic or
melodic effect. I wonder if Arny knows that you can't buy a "pitched"
triangle. I wonder if Arny knows that one can't order a triangle of a
specific pitch.
> I guess Jenn has never heard the sustained ringing of a
> triangle.
Only several times a week for most of my life.
> That takes a fair amount of hearing loss. Probably one reason why
> she prefers vinyl.
Arny knows that this is a lie. I have told him over and over that I
don't "prefer vinyl". I wonder why he lies like this.
Scott Dorsey
>
>I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a triangle is used as
>a pitched instrument. I wonder if he can name one composer, arranger,
>or performer in any genre that uses a triangle for specific harmonic or
>melodic effect. I wonder if Arny knows that you can't buy a "pitched"
>triangle. I wonder if Arny knows that one can't order a triangle of a
>specific pitch.
Probably not. But _I_ know that you can order "Golden Triangles"
at the Mandalay restaurant in DC. Just like the musical triangles, they
are light and airy but they have enough substance to make themselves
felt in your mouth. They are powerfully dramatic samosas and I
recommend them highly.
Jay Ts
> "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>>
This is sort of true. What I have been told about triangles is
that they are intended to be (musically) somewhat like cymbals,
that is, to produce a "percussive sound" rather than a tone
in any musical scale.
I think the 2 bends in them are placed to dampen lower harmonics,
leaving mostly higher ones. The effect on the auditory system
is to partly or mostly foil its ability to identify a specific pitch.
However, it would still be possible to manufacture differently-sized
triangles, with separate, tuned pitches, and play a song on
them. As can be done with other percussive instruments, such
as bells or glockenspiel. Although it might not sound as nice,
it could be made to work.
>> > Each pitch that glocks sound is a recognizable pitch.
>>
>> The initial crash of striking a triangle is basically a burst of
>> broadband noise with no particular pitch, but a triangle's sustained
>> ringing has an exact pitch.
Jenn, I don't blame you for being defensive, but Arny is just
stating facts here.
Technically, triangles, drums, cymbals, pianos and guitars
all are percussion instruments. They produce sounds as a result
of a hit or pluck (percussive events), and the sound is intitally
composed of a wide range of frequencies, that the instrument
physically filters down to those of its natural harmonic vibration.
The instruments vary in terms of how they filter those frequencies --
the time it takes, the shape of the amplitude envelope, the rate
at which different frequencies disappear relative to one another,
and so on.
In some instruments, the harmonics that settle out are more
pure in tone than in others. A piano or a guitar produces a
closely-related series of harmonics (close to perfect multiples
of the first), while a cymbal continues to produce very complex
harmonics that settle slowly, if at all.
I think the main difference between the glockenspiel and triangle
sounds is due to the relative shapes of the triangle rod and
the glockenspiel bar. The rod of the triangle is narrower in
length with respect to its thickness, whereas the bars used
in glockenspiels are thicker (that is, they have smaller
length/width ratios), which causes the initial transient
mix of frequencies to settle much more rapidly into a pure tone.
The other difference is that the triangle is bent 1/3 and 2/3
along its length, while the glockenspiel is supported at those
points, allowing the fundamental and second harmonic to ring
more.
The Wikipedia article on the triangle,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_(instrument)
has a short mp3 of a latin-style triangle, which I'm pretty
sure is larger than the ones commonly-used by orchestras.
In some of the hits, you can hear it settling into a purer
tone. At least, that is what I perceive. For something of
this nature, I would not be surprised if there were significant
differences in perception, due to differences in ears and such
between people.
However, none of this is likely to affect the way the triangle is
perceived in the culture of musicians. Early in life (3rd grade?),
I was trained that the triangle is considered an "unpitched" instrument,
like a drum.
But at that time, I wasn't told that some drummers
tune their drumheads to thirds to make them sound better!
I learned that much later, and from musicians, not
musical educators teaching music theory.
Unfortunately, a lot of what people think they know is based
more upon opinion that is commonly-accepted as fact, rather
than than on actual, scientifically discernable, fact.
BTW, that probably includes me. :-P
Don Pearce
wrote:
>The Wikipedia article on the triangle,
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_(instrument)
>has a short mp3 of a latin-style triangle, which I'm pretty
>sure is larger than the ones commonly-used by orchestras.
>In some of the hits, you can hear it settling into a purer
>tone. At least, that is what I perceive. For something of
>this nature, I would not be surprised if there were significant
>differences in perception, due to differences in ears and such
>between people.
That is quite definitely playing a B. But more normal orchestral
triangles, although they obviously have a pitch as much as that one
has, are generally too high in the register for the pitch to be a
useful classification - they just go ting.
d
Jenn
Jay Ts <UseWebsi...@example.com> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
> > "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> >> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> > OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no recognizable pitch.
>
> This is sort of true. What I have been told about triangles is
> that they are intended to be (musically) somewhat like cymbals,
> that is, to produce a "percussive sound" rather than a tone
> in any musical scale.
True.
>
> I think the 2 bends in them are placed to dampen lower harmonics,
> leaving mostly higher ones. The effect on the auditory system
> is to partly or mostly foil its ability to identify a specific pitch.
Probably true. And the "open loop" aspect gives it its sustaining
ability.
>
> However, it would still be possible to manufacture differently-sized
> triangles, with separate, tuned pitches, and play a song on
> them. As can be done with other percussive instruments, such
> as bells or glockenspiel. Although it might not sound as nice,
> it could be made to work.
"Could" is not what "is". The instruments are not made to give a
specific pitch, nor is there attempt to utilize them in that way. We
HAVE an instrument that is made to do this: the glockenspiel. It gives
basically the same sound, but the bars are tuned to specific pitches.
Add to this HOW triangles are played (suspended from a string; imagine
what happens if one would attempt to play these mythical tuned
triangles, fortissimo, melodically. You'd have triangles swinging all
over the place!), and one starts to see why composers simply ask for the
glock.
OK. All of which points to the fact that triangles are very ill-suited
to contribute melodically or harmonically.
>
> The Wikipedia article on the triangle,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_(instrument)
> has a short mp3 of a latin-style triangle, which I'm pretty
> sure is larger than the ones commonly-used by orchestras.
> In some of the hits, you can hear it settling into a purer
> tone. At least, that is what I perceive. For something of
> this nature, I would not be surprised if there were significant
> differences in perception, due to differences in ears and such
> between people.
>
> However, none of this is likely to affect the way the triangle is
> perceived in the culture of musicians. Early in life (3rd grade?),
> I was trained that the triangle is considered an "unpitched" instrument,
> like a drum.
Like MOST drums.
>
> But at that time, I wasn't told that some drummers
> tune their drumheads to thirds to make them sound better!
> I learned that much later, and from musicians, not
> musical educators teaching music theory.
What kind of drums are you speaking of here?
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of what people think they know is based
> more upon opinion that is commonly-accepted as fact, rather
> than than on actual, scientifically discernable, fact.
So true.
>
> BTW, that probably includes me. :-P
>
> Jay Ts
;-) Jay, thanks for your input. The clear fact of the matter is that
triangles are not used as specific pitch instruments. If someone can
produce a score where triangles are designated to play specific pitches
as part of melody or harmony, I'd sure like to see it. There's a reason
that they are not used in that way.
Mike Rivers
> I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a triangle is used as
> a pitched instrument. I wonder if he can name one composer, arranger,
> or performer in any genre that uses a triangle for specific harmonic or
> melodic effect. I wonder if Arny knows that you can't buy a "pitched"
> triangle. I wonder if Arny knows that one can't order a triangle of a
> specific pitch.
Too bad this is getting personal. There are different sized triangles.
Some are store-bought.
Some are home made. They ring at different, discernible pitches. While I
don't know of an
orchestral piece that uses a set of triangles, or even a single triangle
to play a melody
note, I would think that a conductor would be cognizant of the pitch of
the triangle's ring and
find one that doesn't clash with the other instruments. We tune drums
depending on the mood
and key of the song, so why not triangles?
Not all triangle parts call for immediate damping to produce the "chank"
sound that's characteristic
of Cajun music - DING-chanka-chank.
Why are we having this silly argument anyway?
Jenn
Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
>
> > I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a triangle is used as
> > a pitched instrument. I wonder if he can name one composer, arranger,
> > or performer in any genre that uses a triangle for specific harmonic or
> > melodic effect. I wonder if Arny knows that you can't buy a "pitched"
> > triangle. I wonder if Arny knows that one can't order a triangle of a
> > specific pitch.
>
> Too bad this is getting personal.
I agree. Ask Arny why he made it so.
> There are different sized triangles.
> Some are store-bought.
> Some are home made. They ring at different, discernible pitches. While I
> don't know of an
> orchestral piece that uses a set of triangles, or even a single triangle
> to play a melody
> note, I would think that a conductor would be cognizant of the pitch of
> the triangle's ring and
> find one that doesn't clash with the other instruments. We tune drums
> depending on the mood
> and key of the song, so why not triangles?
For ensembles that are conducted, the composer is king/queen. If the
composer required the sound of a "tuned triangle", he/she would place
that requirement in the score. Why do you suppose that this is not the
case, and that you can't order a triangle that is tuned to a pitch?
That's not their intended use. You can't order an Eb triangle. Could
one be made that has that initial blast of frequencies and then settles
down to a specific pitch? I'm sure that it could. But why? That's why
we have glocks! ;-)
>
> Not all triangle parts call for immediate damping to produce the "chank"
> sound that's characteristic
> of Cajun music - DING-chanka-chank.
Of course. I would estimate that most orchestral triangle parts are
"l.v." (let vibrate).
>
> Why are we having this silly argument anyway?
It wasn't an argument until Arny entered with his snotball.
Mike Rivers
> For ensembles that are conducted, the composer is king/queen.
Really? What happened to the concept of the conductor interpreting the work?
Why, then, don't all orchestras play a composed work the same way? Sorry,
but either this is nonsense or you didn't express what you were thinking
about
well.
> If the
> composer required the sound of a "tuned triangle", he/she would place
> that requirement in the score. Why do you suppose that this is not the
> case, and that you can't order a triangle that is tuned to a pitch?
Perhaps because this wasn't something the composer thought about at
the time. They don't specify in the score what type of strings go on the
guitars or violins. While that doesn't affect the pitch (as long as the
player is playing the part as written) it affects the tambre of the
instrument,
and surely that's something that at least some composers have in mind.
Others may choose to leave it to interpretation.
I don't shop for triangles. I don't know that you can't order one tuned to a
pitch, but I'm sure that if you asked, you could get one tuned to a
pitch. Harry
Partch certainly used plenty of instruments that you wouldn't consider
tuning,
some that you wouldn't even consider instruments.
> That's not their intended use.
Sez who? And why not?
> You can't order an Eb triangle.
Did anyone ever try? If the bars of a glockenspiel can be tuned, certain
can
a triangle. The fact that nobody has asked for it doesn't mean it can't
exist.
> Could
> one be made that has that initial blast of frequencies and then settles
> down to a specific pitch? I'm sure that it could. But why? That's why
> we have glocks! ;-)
This is a reasonable point. If hear just one note, it may be difficult
to tell
whether is was produced by a triangle or a glock. Or maybe it wouldn't. I
haven't compared them. I would certainly expect them to sound different
because they're shaped differently (round vs. flat, not triangular vs.
straight)
and therefore the ring would almost certainly have different harmonic
content.
A composer, or an interpreter might care about that.
Scott Dorsey
>Jenn wrote:
>
>> For ensembles that are conducted, the composer is king/queen.
>
>Really? What happened to the concept of the conductor interpreting the work?
"Mozart said it should go 'bup bup bup.' He's dead now. Play it legato."
-- Isaac Stern
Jenn
Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
>
> > For ensembles that are conducted, the composer is king/queen.
>
> Really? What happened to the concept of the conductor interpreting the work?
> Why, then, don't all orchestras play a composed work the same way? Sorry,
> but either this is nonsense or you didn't express what you were thinking
> about
> well.
It is, indeed, the performer's job to interpret. But changing an
instrument that the composer calls for is beyond the job of the
interpreter. The conductor's job is to be the composer's advocate. If
the composer calls for a trumpet, one does not use a trombone, but a
trumpet, presuming that a trumpet is available.
>
> > If the
> > composer required the sound of a "tuned triangle", he/she would place
> > that requirement in the score. Why do you suppose that this is not the
> > case, and that you can't order a triangle that is tuned to a pitch?
>
> Perhaps because this wasn't something the composer thought about at
> the time.
Composers wouldn't ordinarily ask for something that they aren't going
to get. You can't go down to the instrument store and buy a D#
triangle. You MIGHT be able to find one, if one listened to all of the
triangles made by all of the different makers. One could also, I
suppose get one custom made. But why would a composer ask for something
that is darned near impossible to get, when he/she could get so very
close with the commonly available glock or another instrument off the
shelf such as crotales?
> They don't specify in the score what type of strings go on the
> guitars or violins. While that doesn't affect the pitch (as long as the
> player is playing the part as written) it affects the tambre of the
> instrument,
> and surely that's something that at least some composers have in mind.
> Others may choose to leave it to interpretation.
But strings on a string instrument are a relatively small part of the
sound of the instrument compared to the instrument itself. In relation
to the triangle, you seem to be asking the guitar to tune its lowest 4
strings to cello frequencies. One could get a guitar built that COULD
do that, but it would be an extraordinary request. (Before someone
claims that I don't understand that different strings can change the
timbre of the instrument, OF COURSE they can and do. But I'm speaking
of matter of degree here.)
>
> I don't shop for triangles. I don't know that you can't order one tuned to a
> pitch, but I'm sure that if you asked, you could get one tuned to a
> pitch. Harry
> Partch certainly used plenty of instruments that you wouldn't consider
> tuning,
> some that you wouldn't even consider instruments.
Let me be more clear yet: When I say "order", I mean from a store or
other seller of percussion instruments, for example:
http://www.lpmusic.com/Product_Showcase/lp_catalogs.html
Yes, I'm sure that if you wanted to spend a bloody fortune and have one
specially made to play a certain pitch, you could.
>
> > That's not their intended use.
>
> Sez who? And why not?
If it was their intended use, composers would call for it. Mike, let's
take a composer like Stravinsky, who was well known for being perhaps
the most specific of orchestral composers as to his requirements. When
he wrote a part for triangle, he just wrote "triangle". He didn't even
write "(small medium, or large) triangle". On the other hand, he was
fastidious about his harmonic practice in each of his styles of
composition. If Stravinsky was wanting his triangle to something other
than a non-pitched effect (like cymbals), he would ask for a "pitched
triangle", it seems. He never did. It's like the difference between a
gong and a tam-tam. If they want the sound like the end of "Nights in
White Satin" (non-pitched), they ask for tam-tam. If they want a
similar sound but one that has specific pitch that fits into a melodic
or harmonic situation, they ask for gong. If they want a non-specific
pitch, they ask for triangle. If they want a specific pitch, they ask
for glock, crotales, etc.
>
> > You can't order an Eb triangle.
>
> Did anyone ever try? If the bars of a glockenspiel can be tuned, certain
> can
> a triangle. The fact that nobody has asked for it doesn't mean it can't
> exist.
See above. When I said "order", I mean off the shelf.
Arny Krueger
news:1ivj4zg.1s0mpu0y3zcnqN%walk...@nv.net
> Arny Krueger <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:jennconducts-1494...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>>
>>> OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no
>>> recognizable pitch. Each pitch that glocks sound is a
>>> recognizable pitch.
>> The initial crash of striking a triangle is basically a
>> burst of broadband noise with no particular pitch, but a
>> triangle's sustained ringing has an exact pitch. I
>> guess Jenn has never heard the sustained ringing of a
>> triangle. That takes a fair amount of hearing loss.
>> Probably one reason why she prefers vinyl.
> Arny, Jennifer is a conductor and professor of music at a
> university in California.
That's the story she tells on RAO.
>She has probably heard more
> triangles than anyone else reading r.a.p., unless we have
> a Cajun lurking.
Please explain why then she can't hear the tone of triangle.
BTW Hank, haven't you ever heard the tone of a triangle?
Or are you *that* blinded by credentials? ;-)
Arny Krueger
Arny Krueger
> In article
> <XdudnepMd_fF3jzU...@giganews.com>, "Arny
> Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:jennconducts-1494...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>>
>>> OK, I'll be more specific: Triangles have no
>>> recognizable pitch. Each pitch that glocks sound is a
>>> recognizable pitch.
>>
>> The initial crash of striking a triangle is basically a
>> burst of broadband noise with no particular pitch, but a
>> triangle's sustained ringing has an exact pitch.
>
> I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a
> triangle is used as a pitched instrument.
Not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not triangles have pitch. You said that
triangles absolutely, positively don't have pitch. Anybody who has heard one
knows that's completely wrong. That their pitch may be irrelevant to their
use in certain pieces of music is a completely different issue.
Arny Krueger
> In article <owiol.997$tw4...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>> Jenn wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if Arny can name ONE piece of music where a
>>> triangle is used as a pitched instrument. I wonder if
>>> he can name one composer, arranger, or performer in any
>>> genre that uses a triangle for specific harmonic or
>>> melodic effect. I wonder if Arny knows that you can't
>>> buy a "pitched" triangle. I wonder if Arny knows that
>>> one can't order a triangle of a specific pitch.
>>
>> Too bad this is getting personal.
>
> I agree. Ask Arny why he made it so.
Yep, Jenn and I have a history. She fits in well at RAO.
Scott Dorsey
>
>The question is whether or not triangles have pitch. You said that
>triangles absolutely, positively don't have pitch. Anybody who has heard one
>knows that's completely wrong. That their pitch may be irrelevant to their
>use in certain pieces of music is a completely different issue.
Does an 18KC tone have pitch? If so, what is it?
--scott
Jenn
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
Note:
I apologize to the group. Arny evidently feels the need to "go on" with
me. As you can see from this thread, he starts throwing flames without
the least bit of provocation.
Arny Krueger
> I apologize to the group.
Jenn, try admitting to an obvious physical fact - triangles have pitch and
tone.
Jenn
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
Yes, they have several pitches at once. That's why they aren't
considered to be a pitched percussion instrument. And yes, they have
tone. I haven't seen anyone say that they don't have tone.
Arny Krueger
news:gnsmt0$98n$1...@panix2.panix.com
> Arny Krueger <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>> The question is whether or not triangles have pitch.
>> Jenn said that triangles absolutely, positively don't
>> have pitch. Anybody who has heard one knows that's
>> completely wrong. That their pitch may be irrelevant to
>> their use in certain pieces of music is a completely
>> different issue.
> Does an 18KC tone have pitch?
Yes.
> If so, what is it?
Going down the scale...
18.00 kHz
9.00 kHz
4500 Hz
Closest musical note to 4500 Hz seems to be C#8 (4434.92 Hz)
That would make 18.00 kHz a somewhat out of tune C#10 (A=440)
BTW, the last triangle I measured put out pretty nice 182 Hz sine waves
after the crash. That would make it F#3.
I'm surprised that composers don't work things out so that the sustain of a
triangle doesn't fit into the rest of the piece.
Jenn
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> "Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:gnsmt0$98n$1...@panix2.panix.com
> > Arny Krueger <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> >> The question is whether or not triangles have pitch.
> >> Jenn said that triangles absolutely, positively don't
> >> have pitch. Anybody who has heard one knows that's
> >> completely wrong. That their pitch may be irrelevant to
> >> their use in certain pieces of music is a completely
> >> different issue.
>
> > Does an 18KC tone have pitch?
>
> Yes.
>
> > If so, what is it?
>
> Going down the scale...
>
> 18.00 kHz
> 9.00 kHz
> 4500 Hz
>
> Closest musical note to 4500 Hz seems to be C#8 (4434.92 Hz)
>
> That would make 18.00 kHz a somewhat out of tune C#10 (A=440)
>
> BTW, the last triangle I measured put out pretty nice 182 Hz sine waves
> after the crash. That would make it F#3.
A flat F#.
hank alrich
The tone is not the pitch.
> BTW Hank, haven't you ever heard the tone of a triangle?
I have played triangle, not necessarily well.
> Or are you *that* blinded by credentials? ;-)
Naaah, Jenn can keep up.
hank alrich
> That's why we have glocks! ;-)
Oh, great, now we're into handguns... <g>
hank alrich
> Note:
> I apologize to the group. Arny evidently feels the need to "go on" with
> me. As you can see from this thread, he starts throwing flames without
> the least bit of provocation.
Not to worry, Jenn; new folks, old territory and bush-pisser-onners
defending themselves from themselves. He's an excitable boy. "Bring
lawyers, guns, and money"
hank alrich
There are some know one from the other, and some who do not so knoweth.
Jenn
walk...@nv.net (hank alrich) wrote:
> Jenn <jennco...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > That's why we have glocks! ;-)
>
> Oh, great, now we're into handguns... <g>
lol
Laurence Payne
wrote:
>> For ensembles that are conducted, the composer is king/queen.
>
>Really? What happened to the concept of the conductor interpreting the work?
>Why, then, don't all orchestras play a composed work the same way? Sorry,
>but either this is nonsense or you didn't express what you were thinking
>about
>well.
I think she means the conductor's (and orchestra's) job is primarily
an attempt to understand and reproduce the composer's intentions.
Unlike jazz, rock etc. where the performers often see their role as
co-composers, or at least as arrangers.
Luckily, notation is an imprecise art, so there's still plenty of room
for interpretation. And because the road-map is clearly laid out,
works can be longer, more complex...whereas improvised music generally
falls to bits if prolonged past a few minutes.
> > If the
>> composer required the sound of a "tuned triangle", he/she would place
>> that requirement in the score. Why do you suppose that this is not the
>> case, and that you can't order a triangle that is tuned to a pitch?
>
>Perhaps because this wasn't something the composer thought about at
>the time.
I just picked up a triangle and made a rough recording.
http://www.auym23.dsl.pipex.com/share/share.html
After the initial clang I hear a very definite C with a strong E
overtone a 10th higher.
Arny Krueger
> In article
> <gN-dnVwYS9b3dTzU...@giganews.com>, "Arny
> Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:jennconducts-BAAD...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>>
>>> I apologize to the group.
>> Jenn, try admitting to an obvious physical fact -
>> triangles have pitch and tone.
> Yes, they have several pitches at once.
Wrong again. The sustained tone of a triangle can be one of the purest tones
found in an orchestra.
Arny Krueger
> A flat F#.
Yes, it was a couple of Hz low from being in tune. However, in the real
world, small errors like this are not uncommon.
But it was a very pure tone, which is logical given the construction of a
triangle - basically a high Q resonant rod.
Mike Rivers
> Composers wouldn't ordinarily ask for something that they aren't going
> to get. You can't go down to the instrument store and buy a D#
> triangle. You MIGHT be able to find one, if one listened to all of the
> triangles made by all of the different makers. One could also, I
> suppose get one custom made. But why would a composer ask for something
> that is darned near impossible to get, when he/she could get so very
> close with the commonly available glock or another instrument off the
> shelf such as crotales?
This is getting absurd. Why write a new love song when there are plenty
commonly available? Why create a new synthesizer patch when there are
pianos and trombones? Can't a composer have a new and creative vision
to allow his followers to hear something they've never heard before? You're
confusing the academic wth the artistic.
> But strings on a string instrument are a relatively small part of the
> sound of the instrument compared to the instrument itself.
Ahem!
> In relation
> to the triangle, you seem to be asking the guitar to tune its lowest 4
> strings to cello frequencies. One could get a guitar built that COULD
> do that, but it would be an extraordinary request.
Baritone guitars exist, and there is a whole collection of literature
written
and arranged for the mandolin orchestra which involves mando-cellos.
That's a
double-strung instrument built on what amounts to a guitar body, and
usually played with a pick. You can buy a brand new one, factory made.
> Let me be more clear yet: When I say "order", I mean from a store or
> other seller of percussion instruments
I understand that, but why should the off-the-shelf availability of an
instrument
inhibit a composer or interpreter to use one. We're not talking about
something
that's difficult to build here. Your local blacksmith could make you
one. And if you
want it at a different pitch, he can hammer on it some and change it.
Have you never
seen a steel drum? Or watched one being made? Or even made one?
> Yes, I'm sure that if you wanted to spend a bloody fortune and have one
> specially made to play a certain pitch, you could.
This is not rocket science.
> If it was their intended use, composers would call for it. Mike, let's
> take a composer like Stravinsky, who was well known for being perhaps
> the most specific of orchestral composers as to his requirements. When
> he wrote a part for triangle, he just wrote "triangle". He didn't even
> write "(small medium, or large) triangle".
So maybe he didn't care about that. Go ask him.
> On the other hand, he was
> fastidious about his harmonic practice in each of his styles of
> composition. If Stravinsky was wanting his triangle to something other
> than a non-pitched effect (like cymbals), he would ask for a "pitched
> triangle", it seems. He never did.
It would be interesting to know what his reaction would be if someone
said to
him: "The triangle really jars the listener right there because it's not
quite a half step
lower than what the string are playing. Is that what you intended? Or
would you rather
have a triangle that's in better tune?"
He might say "Bah! Humbug!" or he might say "Ya! Let's try that."
Mike Rivers
> I think she means the conductor's (and orchestra's) job is primarily
> an attempt to understand and reproduce the composer's intentions.
> Unlike jazz, rock etc. where the performers often see their role as
> co-composers, or at least as arrangers.
That may be the case in the field of traditional classical music, but
there are contemporary conductors who present their own ideas on
interpretation, and there are contemporary classical composers who
use traditional instruments in non-traditional ways (prepared piano,
for instance) and use new and non-traditional instruments. To say
that because Stravinsky never wrote "big triangle" into his scores
doesn't mean that it it's wrong for a conductor or percussionist to
experiment with alternate versions of the instrument to give a different
twist to the music, or, to make it more predictable.
Surely there would be a different listening experience hearing the same
composition if one orchestra's percussionist pulled a big triangle out of
his bag and another percussionist in another orchestra used a small one.
> After the initial clang I hear a very definite C with a strong E
> overtone a 10th higher.
OK, now play along with that in D. Then shift the pitch of the triangle
up a little higher and see if the sense of the music changes. My guess
would be that the off-pitch triangle would create a sense of tension, and
that tension would be relieved if it was in tune. There's a place for each.
hank alrich
> I think she means the conductor's (and orchestra's) job is primarily
> an attempt to understand and reproduce the composer's intentions.
Thank you.
Scott Dorsey
>"Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>news:jennconducts-8322...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>> In article
>> <gN-dnVwYS9b3dTzU...@giganews.com>, "Arny
>> Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" <jennco...@mac.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jennconducts-BAAD...@news.la.sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>> I apologize to the group.
>
>>> Jenn, try admitting to an obvious physical fact -
>>> triangles have pitch and tone.
>
>> Yes, they have several pitches at once.
>
>Wrong again. The sustained tone of a triangle can be one of the purest tones
>found in an orchestra.
That's only because all the harmonics are well above 20 KHz.
Scott Dorsey
>Laurence Payne <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I think she means the conductor's (and orchestra's) job is primarily
>> an attempt to understand and reproduce the composer's intentions.
>
>Thank you.
That's not what Glenn Gould thought.
Don Pearce
>hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
>>Laurence Payne <l...@laurencepayne.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I think she means the conductor's (and orchestra's) job is primarily
>>> an attempt to understand and reproduce the composer's intentions.
>>
>>Thank you.
>
>That's not what Glenn Gould thought.
Glenn played what the composer wrote, and hummed what he thought the
composer should have written.
d
Scott Dorsey
>
>> Does an 18KC tone have pitch?
>
>Yes.
>
>> If so, what is it?
>
>Going down the scale...
>
>18.00 kHz
>9.00 kHz
>4500 Hz
>
>Closest musical note to 4500 Hz seems to be C#8 (4434.92 Hz)
>
>That would make 18.00 kHz a somewhat out of tune C#10 (A=440)
Try this. Play an 18 KHz tone. Then play it, in combination with a
tone two notes down. Then play it, in combination with a note one note
down.
Do an A/B comparison and see if you can tell which one is the chord and
which one is dischordant. I bet a dime you can't.
>BTW, the last triangle I measured put out pretty nice 182 Hz sine waves
>after the crash. That would make it F#3.
182 Hz modulating _what_?
>I'm surprised that composers don't work things out so that the sustain of a
>triangle doesn't fit into the rest of the piece.
They do. Check out Varese's _Ionosation_.
Arny Krueger
My 4006 recording at 24/96 says differently. Over the second half of the
decay, the fundamental averaged about 30 dB higher than the next harmonic
and this ratio increased as the decay progressed. This is very pure for an
acoustical instrument.
I was looking at this problem in the relevant parts of Science of Percussion
Instruments By Thomas D. Rossing, particularly chapter 7. According to this
source, a metal bar can possibly have a large number of resonant modes, but
which modes are excited is very dependent on where and how it is struck.