Sony TC-252 reel to reel slowing down?

[glenn...@gmail.com]

Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

[Scott Dorsey]

<glenn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listen=
>ing to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through =
>a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the head=
>s from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me thi=
>s machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1=

>/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
>Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

Those consumer machines were really never very stable in the best of
times, and yours is probably WAY overdue for new belts, new pinch roller,
and a total cleaning and lube. Rubber parts need regular replacement.

MANY of those awful one-motor Sony machines also used an idler pulley
which was also rubber and goes the same way all rubber materials go.
I don't know if this can be rebuilt like pinch rollers can.

The guys in rec.antiques.radio+phono probably can help more on those
consumer machines and setting you up with someone locally who can service
them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[MarkK]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:kdtu2f$l4t$1...@panix2.panix.com...

> <glenn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was
listen=
> >ing to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went
through =
> >a few songs it got slower and slower.

I assume it's a single motor machine and all single motor machines have to
use the same motor to drive the capstan and the take up reel. The take up
reel is driven through some sort of mechanical friction clutch that applies
torque to the take up reel but also slips. When you're at the start of the
reel, the take up reel is empty and spins fast so places LESS load on the
motor. As the take up reel fills up, it slows down so places MORE load on
the motor which slows it down a bit and therefore slows down the capstan as
well.

Another thing, when the take up reel is empty, it exerts more "pull" on the
tape which may have a small speedup effect.

So check the take up reel clutch and make sure it isn't too tight putting
too much load on the motor. That's about all you can do short of
re-designing the machine.

This is the reason I liked my Viking 88, it had a separate motor for the
takeup reel tension. It held speed very well.

You can probably find someone willing to transfer the tapes to digital for
you on a good machine.


Mark

[glenn...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 12:49:28 AM UTC-5, glenn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
>
> Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

Ok maybe I will see if I can just get another machine. My only other machine I have that's 1/4" is a Otari MX 55 and it's not a 1/4 track. It sounds like this machine is not worth fixing GT.

[Scott Dorsey]

<glenn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Ok maybe I will see if I can just get another machine. My only other machi=
>ne I have that's 1/4" is a Otari MX 55 and it's not a 1/4 track. It sounds=

> like this machine is not worth fixing GT.

Well, it's a typical consumer machine, it's about what you'd expect.

You can set up a quarter-track headstack for the MX-55. John French
probably has heads in stock although you may need to find a holder from
another Otari.

Quarter track was basically a consumer release format, an attempt at
saving tape costs while giving up substantial S/N and the ability to edit.
So most of the quarter track machines you see out there are going to be
cheaply-made consumer gear. Probably the best of them are the Revox
machines, though. Still, it's not that hard to retrofit a typical studio
machine up for clean quarter-track playback if it can deal with the slower
speeds properly.

[Mort]

Hi,

I have a Revox that is about 30 years old, and it always works perfectly
well. It is head and shoulders above the Ampex machine that I had.

Your machine probably needs a good check-up, new belts, and check on the
clutch tension, plus general cleaning.

I just love my Roland pocket-sized digital recorder. We have come a long
way since I started recording 78 rpm acetate / aluminum discs.

Mort Linder

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <51059fa9$0$9838$607e...@cv.net>, Mort <mo...@cloud9.net> wrote:
>
>I have a Revox that is about 30 years old, and it always works perfectly
>well. It is head and shoulders above the Ampex machine that I had.

The A77 and B77 machines were definitely the king of the consumer machines,
certainly the most solid transports. Still, I don't think I'd put them up
against even a 440 for most applications although they are definitely easier
on tape.

If I were looking to buy a machine just for quarter-track playback, though,
I'd probably pick a quarter-track A77.

[Chuck]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:49:28 -0800 (PST), glenn...@gmail.com wrote:

>Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
>Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

The TC-252 uses an idler wheel to drive the capstan. They were drying
out back in the 80s so I would presume the one in your machine needs
to be replaced. The problem is finding one, even new old stock, in
usable condition. Chuck

[glenn...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 12:49:28 AM UTC-5, glenn...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
>
> Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

An Idler wheel? Wonder if Terry could build? GT

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <e1e0a94b-3a6d-4bf3...@googlegroups.com>,

<glenn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, January 25, 2013 12:49:28 AM UTC-5, glenn...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was list=
>ening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went throug=
>h a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the he=
>ads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me t=
>his machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start=

> 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.

>>=20

>> Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.
>
>An Idler wheel? Wonder if Terry could build? GT

Russell Industries can often match weird idlers.

But frankly, my feeling is that if it has an idler it's not a design worth
bothering with in the first place.

[hank alrich]

This guy might be able to help:

http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic

[paulc...@comcast.net]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 at 12:49:28 AM UTC-5, glenn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
> Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

It is rim driven. I had the same issue and you have to take it apart and there's a tire that when it's in play, it will go between the main motor shaft and the capstan fly wheel. You should see three tiers on the motor shaft. That determines the speed of the tape. Does it do it on all speeds or are some speeds worse than others? It wouldn't hurt to take that tire off and clean off the post that it rides on and the hole in the tire, just to make sure all of that hardened grease gets out of there. There is also an elbow that also may not be moving freely on the speed tire. If you can clean that with alcohol and maybe throw some 3 in 1 oil on that, that will definitely help that tire engage the motor and capstan flywheel. I hope this helps you. It really is a great sounding tape deck if it's working properly.

[Trevor]

At least some replies are getting a bit more timely, only 4 1/2 years
this one. :-)

Trevor.

[Anders Nielsen]

Hi
I’m from the future! Thank you so much for all the advice. My TC-252w can now celebrate 50 years anniversary in style :)
The pinch roller arm was greased 100% stuck, needed lube everywhere else and needed some adjustment but now it’s almost there.. still running slower when it’s warm but that might be the take up idler that’s too tight on the motor shaft.. if not the motors’ about to die,

[Scott Dorsey]

Anders Nielsen <forst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi=20
>I=E2=80=99m from the future! Thank you so much for all the advice. My TC-2=

>52w can now celebrate 50 years anniversary in style :)

>The pinch roller arm was greased 100% stuck, needed lube everywhere else an=
>d needed some adjustment but now it=E2=80=99s almost there.. still running =
>slower when it=E2=80=99s warm but that might be the take up idler that=E2=
>=80=99s too tight on the motor shaft.. if not the motors=E2=80=99 about to =
>die,

Replace the pinch roller and if there is an internal idler, replace that too.
Those are wear items that just need to be done every five or ten years.

[Chuck]

Scott,
Where are these parts available? Thanks. Chuck

[Scott Dorsey]

>Scott,
>Where are these parts available? Thanks. Chuck

Terry's Rubber Rollers should be willing to rebuild the existing ones if
you don't have a source for spares. Russell Industries may have spares
for belts and internal idlers on the shelf.

[Jeff Hecht]

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:45:59 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Terry's Rubber Rollers should be willing to rebuild the existing ones if
> you don't have a source for spares. Russell Industries may have spares
> for belts and internal idlers on the shelf.

I have a circa 1968 Sony 250A that I have been using to convert my original tapes to digital format. After long disuse, it started very slowly, but I was able to get it running again long enough to record digitize 10-20 tapes before it slowed down again with what seems to be the same problem here. The 250A seems quite similar to the 252, as described by paulc. I have a couple of questions.
I found a site offering replacement belts for Sony recorders https://www.vintage-electronics.net/sonyreeltoreelspeedproblems.aspx Has anybody used them and are they any good?
I have tried http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ but the site appears to be down.
I also want to add a bit on using other recorders to play old tapes. I picked up a TEAC 1230 10 or 20 years ago which works reasonably well but does not pick up the right channel well -- or sometimes at all -- on some tapes I recorded on the Sony, which the Sony can pick up. Could that be a problem with head alignment?
Thanks, Jeff

[Scott Dorsey]

Jeff Hecht <hech...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I have a circa 1968 Sony 250A that I have been using to convert my original=
> tapes to digital format. After long disuse, it started very slowly, but I =
>was able to get it running again long enough to record digitize 10-20 tapes=
> before it slowed down again with what seems to be the same problem here. T=
>he 250A seems quite similar to the 252, as described by paulc. I have a cou=
>ple of questions.

Okay, so you have a machine that has maybe fifty years of deferred maintenance.
When was the last time it got a clean and lube? Forty years ago maybe?

You need to go through the complete lubrication procedure in the manual,
and it's going to be harder than it would normally be because there is
crusty varnished-up stuff all over everything. Everything comes apart,
gets oiled or greased, goes back together. All rubber parts get replaced,
and all of the connectors needs to be cleaned with DeOxit or Cramolin.
Then you do the alignment and see what else is wrong. Which will almost
certainly involve capacitor replacement.

>I found a site offering replacement belts for Sony recorders https://www.vi=
>ntage-electronics.net/sonyreeltoreelspeedproblems.aspx Has anybody used th=
>em and are they any good?=20

I haven't. I have always used Russell Industries (Projector-Recorder Belt)
which are good people and have been in business for a long long time.

>I have tried http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ but the site appears to b=
=>e down.=20

He's old. Call him on the phone. There are a bunch of other places that
will do rubber rebuilding and there are several listed on the Ampex Mailing
List guide to parts suppliers which can be found online somewhere.

>I also want to add a bit on using other recorders to play old tapes. I pick=
>ed up a TEAC 1230 10 or 20 years ago which works reasonably well but does n=
>ot pick up the right channel well -- or sometimes at all -- on some tapes I=
> recorded on the Sony, which the Sony can pick up. Could that be a problem =
>with head alignment?=20

Sure, it could be a head alignment issue. But it might also be that you are
trying to play back half-track tapes on a quarter-track machine. Almost
certainly it has bad electrolytics throughout the electronics and all of the
contacts are dirty. When you put the alignment tape on the thing it will
likely become clear what is going on. There is fifty years worth of
maintenance on this machine that hasn't been done and now you need to do it
all at once.

Budget maybe ten hours for a tech who knows what he is doing to tear one of
these things down and get it meet original specs. But please be aware that
original specs aren't really all that good... it really is not worth the time
to work on single-motor consumer machines.

[Jeff Hecht]

Thanks for the detailed comments.

> Okay, so you have a machine that has maybe fifty years of deferred maintenance.
> When was the last time it got a clean and lube? Forty years ago maybe?

Actually, probably about 10 years on the Sony, but I get your point. When I got started
on this project I was more worried about the tapes than the reel-to-reall,
but turns out the old machines are more in need of attention. What "manual" do
you mean? I have the original owner's manual which includes routine lubrication
and cleaning instructions, but not much detail about other things. Are there detailed
repair manuals and where would I find them?

>
> You need to go through the complete lubrication procedure in the manual,
> and it's going to be harder than it would normally be because there is
> crusty varnished-up stuff all over everything. Everything comes apart,
> gets oiled or greased, goes back together. All rubber parts get replaced,
> and all of the connectors needs to be cleaned with DeOxit or Cramolin.
> Then you do the alignment and see what else is wrong. Which will almost
> certainly involve capacitor replacement.
>

I have not tried aligning the tape heads, but about 25 years ago I had a local
repair place, now long gone, do an overhaul. What kind of equipment does it
require and where can I find alignment tapes?

> >I also want to add a bit on using other recorders to play old tapes. I pick=
> >ed up a TEAC 1230 10 or 20 years ago which works reasonably well but does n=
> >ot pick up the right channel well -- or sometimes at all -- on some tapes I=
> > recorded on the Sony, which the Sony can pick up. Could that be a problem =
> >with head alignment?=20
>
> Sure, it could be a head alignment issue. But it might also be that you are
> trying to play back half-track tapes on a quarter-track machine. Almost
> certainly it has bad electrolytics throughout the electronics and all of the
> contacts are dirty. When you put the alignment tape on the thing it will
> likely become clear what is going on. There is fifty years worth of
> maintenance on this machine that hasn't been done and now you need to do it
> all at once.

I don't think the TEAC had much care before I found it, but it did work. I cleaned
and oiled it recently, but that's all. I doubt I have any half-track tapes kicking
around; but some tapes play quite differently on the two machines,
with the TEAC being weaker on the right channel. Others seem to play
the same on both. If I can get both machines up and running, I may try
to figure out what's going on. I recorded some on new tapes, some on used
tapes, and bought some used tapes and saved the music on them.

>
> Budget maybe ten hours for a tech who knows what he is doing to tear one of
> these things down and get it meet original specs. But please be aware that
> original specs aren't really all that good... it really is not worth the time
> to work on single-motor consumer machines.
> --scott
> --

Good advice. Fortunately none of the music is irreplaceable original recordings.
This is largely fiddling around with interesting old stuff.
-- Jeff

[ray brodeur]

Ok. Y friends,where the heck do I get rubber wheels and belts and whatever turns theserereels around anyway??

[ray brodeur]

Isn’t there anyone who makes reel to reel affordable tape machines anymore??

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <304f7df8-7731-412b...@googlegroups.com>,

ray brodeur <tele...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Ok. Y friends,where the heck do I get rubber wheels and belts and whatever turns theserereels around anyway??

Russell Industries.

You get things like pinch rollers rebuilt by places like Terry's Rubber
Rollers.

The Ampex Mailing List website has a list of parts suppliers which include
quite a few that will have parts for consumer recorders too.

I don't personally think it's worth the time and money to refurbish consumer
machines, but it's your time and money and not mine.

[geoff]

On 18/09/2022 6:00 am, ray brodeur wrote:
> Isn’t there anyone who makes reel to reel affordable tape machines anymore??

Why would they ?

geoff

[Richard Kuschel]

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 at 10:49:28 PM UTC-7, glenn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi again gents, I got a Sony TC-252 reel to reel with speakers . Was listening to some of my old 1970's 4 track studio hits. As the tape went through a few songs it got slower and slower. I don't think it's sludge on the heads from the tape. It's Maxell and is just fine. My father in law gave me this machine and it did the same thing with one of his tapes. It might start 1/2 step flat then after about 8 songs it's 2 steps flat.
> Is this because of a loose belt? Thanks if you can help. Glenn.

New belts are available on Ebay.
Service manuals are available and can be downloaded.
The main problem that you are having is that the lubrication in the motor and other parts are gummed up and those need to be cleaned and relubricated.
The mechanism is very simple.

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