Difference Between D-130's and D-140's
Analogeezer
the time I thought they were D-130's.
I'd just read the tag on the back, but some idiot removed them before
I got them (I found them inside a pair of folded horn cabinets that I
got cheaply back around 1987).
I thought these things were D-130's because my original experience
with JBL's was with a pair of K-130's, which had the smaller magnet
covers, the speakers I have look like the K-130's, only with grey
frames and covers instead of the black that the K series had.
I go on Ebay and there are 130's and 140's which look basically the
same to me.
Anyway to really tell the difference between these by just looking at
them?
It seems like the 130's are more popular, I never used these things
much because they were in folded horn cabinets....you'd think they
wouldn't put 130's in a folded horn, but the guy I bought them from
was a clueless idiot, I'm not sure if he even knew there were JBL's in
there.
Thanks for any advice...
Analogeezer
Wayne
Check this out:
http://www.harpamps.com/micKspeakers/D130F-History.html
--Wayne
-"sounded good to me"-
Harvey Gerst
>I've got an old pair of JBL's that were reconed about 11 years ago, at
>the time I thought they were D-130's.
>
>I'd just read the tag on the back, but some idiot removed them before
>I got them (I found them inside a pair of folded horn cabinets that I
>got cheaply back around 1987).
>
>I thought these things were D-130's because my original experience
>with JBL's was with a pair of K-130's, which had the smaller magnet
>covers, the speakers I have look like the K-130's, only with grey
>frames and covers instead of the black that the K series had.
I left JBL before they came out with the K series, so I can't answer any
questions about the K's.
>I go on Ebay and there are 130's and 140's which look basically the
>same to me.
From the outside, the only difference between the D130F and the D140 F is that
the D140F uses a ribbed cone.
>Anyway to really tell the difference between these by just looking at
>them?
See above.
>It seems like the 130's are more popular, I never used these things
>much because they were in folded horn cabinets....you'd think they
>wouldn't put 130's in a folded horn, but the guy I bought them from
>was a clueless idiot, I'm not sure if he even knew there were JBL's in
>there.
Here it gets a little murkier. The original hi-fi D130 did not have a gooped
surround or the slightly wider voice coil gap; the "F" did. The closest thing
in the hi-fi line to the D140F would be a 130A woofer, which had the same
curvealinear smooth cone as the D130, a copper voice coil, and a paper dome.
The magnetic assemblies for the D130, the 130A, and the 12" D131 were all
identical.
The magnetic assemblies for the D130F and the D140F were identical, and similar
to the other assemblies, except for the slight widening of the gap by opening
the gap in the top plate to lessen the chance of the voice coil rubbing.
The D140F used a ribbed cone, similar to the 150-4C, had the wider gap, gooped
surround, a copper voice coil, and the aluminium dome.
We often put the 003 system (D130 + 075 + N2600) in rear-loaded folded horns
(like the C34 or the C40 cabinets). We really didn't make many front-loaded
horns at JBL, but when we did, we used either the 130A woofers or the more
massive 150-4C woofers.
Does that about cover it?
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
hank alrich
> Does that about cover it?
Damn, it's embarrassing to realize that apparently _your_ memory won't
be going.
--
ha
Harvey Gerst
Now if I could just remember how to get home whenever I'm more than 4 blocks
from the house.
hank alrich
> (hank alrich) wrote:
>
> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
> >> Does that about cover it?
>
> >Damn, it's embarrassing to realize that apparently _your_ memory won't
> >be going.
>
> Now if I could just remember how to get home whenever I'm more than 4 blocks
> from the house.
Take a bag of peanuts with you and drop one every few steps. You can
figure out the rest of this...
(Just be careful you don't wind up in a funky l'il cabin in the woods
with some chick a small fraction of your age and piss off the missus.)
...when you turn around to follow the peanut trail back home you'll find
a line of elephants. Follow the elephant shit home.
--
ha
Analogeezer
Well mine were reconed, but they have ribbed cones so I guess that
makes them more or less 140's.
This is all coming back to me now, I guess the differences between the
K's and E's may have been similiar, as I originally bought some
K-130's in 1978, which had the smooth cones, then in 1982 I replaced
them with E-140's which have ribbed cones.
Thanks again for the reply that clears it all up nicely and also gives
me some additional info that is useful.
Analogeezer
John Hardy
at the edge of the cone for a 130 had only one or two ribs,
but the 140 had several ribs for better low-end response.
But I haven't seen one in at least 25 years. My favorite
bass sound was with one or two ported cabinets, each with
two D140 speakers, using a Fender Showman and a Precision
bass. I still have a November 1967 letter from T. W.
Richardson at JBL with recommendations on cabinet size.
Also, long ago there were original JBL replacement parts and
aftermarket replacement parts (Waldom?). I think the
aftermarket parts used round wire instead of edge-wound
rectangular wire, so the efficiency would not be as high. I
noticed some recone kits that are currently available, and
some of them are described as "These are very close to the
genuine articles in both look and performance.", so you
cannot be certain what you are getting.
--
John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com
georgeh
>Also, long ago there were original JBL replacement parts and
>aftermarket replacement parts (Waldom?). I think the
>aftermarket parts used round wire instead of edge-wound
>rectangular wire, so the efficiency would not be as high. I
>noticed some recone kits that are currently available, and
>some of them are described as "These are very close to the
>genuine articles in both look and performance.", so you
>cannot be certain what you are getting.
>--
>John Hardy
>The John Hardy Co.
>www.johnhardyco.com
I have an old D-130F that was reconed in the 70s using the ribbed
D-140 cone. I'd like to have it restored to be a "true" D-130F.
Any recommendations on where to send this? Preferably somewhere
in or close to Michigan? Or is it still best to send these
to JBL for factory service? Does JBL even OFFER factory service
on these today?
Harvey Gerst
>My memory is probably faulty, but I thought the suspension
>at the edge of the cone for a 130 had only one or two ribs,
>but the 140 had several ribs for better low-end response.
>But I haven't seen one in at least 25 years. My favorite
>bass sound was with one or two ported cabinets, each with
>two D140 speakers, using a Fender Showman and a Precision
>bass.
Okay, what we have here is a failure to communicate. :)
We're getting "ribs" confused with the rolls, pleats, folds of the surround. The
two or three rolls at the outer edge of the cone (the "gooped" part) is to allow
the cone to move in and out. The D140F cone has some about 10 or 11 ribs built
in to the front side of the cone to provide additional cone stiffness and
prevent the cone from flexing. It has nothing to do with the "rolls" in the
surround.
Harvey Gerst
>I have an old D-130F that was reconed in the 70s using the ribbed
>D-140 cone. I'd like to have it restored to be a "true" D-130F.
>Any recommendations on where to send this? Preferably somewhere
>in or close to Michigan? Or is it still best to send these
>to JBL for factory service? Does JBL even OFFER factory service
>on these today?
I think "Orange County Speaker Repair" in Southern California still has a supply
of "D130F" cones.
Harvey Gerst
What a great idea!! Only problem is that one of my neighbors has a special wind
chime that she says wards off elephants, and it must work, cuz I haven't seen
any elephants ever since she put the thing up. Maybe I can ask her to take it
down whenever I go out.
hank alrich
> (hank alrich) wrote:
> >>Harvey Gerst wrote:
> >> Now if I could just remember how to get home whenever I'm more than 4
> >> blocks from the house.
> >Take a bag of peanuts with you and drop one every few steps. You can
> >figure out the rest of this...
> >(Just be careful you don't wind up in a funky l'il cabin in the woods
> >with some chick a small fraction of your age and piss off the missus.)
> >...when you turn around to follow the peanut trail back home you'll find
> >a line of elephants. Follow the elephant shit home.
> What a great idea!! Only problem is that one of my neighbors has a
> special wind chime that she says wards off elephants, and it must work,
> cuz I haven't seen any elephants ever since she put the thing up. Maybe I
> can ask her to take it down whenever I go out.
I'll wager her windchime has not been ABX'd against [no trail of peanuts
/ trail of peanuts / who knows what else elephants really like]. Until
she is willing to get into this blind testing thing I wouldn't put too
much stock in her corral.
--
ha
georgeh
>I think "Orange County Speaker Repair" in Southern California still has a supply
>of "D130F" cones.
Thanks Harvey, I'll check it out.
John Hardy
>
>
>>>My memory is probably faulty, but I thought the suspension
>>>at the edge of the cone for a 130 had only one or two ribs,
>>>but the 140 had several ribs for better low-end response.
>>>But I haven't seen one in at least 25 years. My favorite
>>>bass sound was with one or two ported cabinets, each with
>>>two D140 speakers, using a Fender Showman and a Precision
>>>bass.
>
>
> Okay, what we have here is a failure to communicate.
>
> two or three rolls at the outer edge of the cone (the "gooped" part) is to allow
> the cone to move in and out. The D140F cone has some about 10 or 11 ribs built
> in to the front side of the cone to provide additional cone stiffness and
> prevent the cone from flexing. It has nothing to do with the "rolls" in the
> surround.
>
> Harvey Gerst
> Indian Trail Recording Studio
> http://www.ITRstudio.com/
I was referring to the surround when I said that I thought
the 140 had more ribs, lowering the resonant frequency.
Actually, I just dug out an old JBL publication that seems
to be dated from 1975 (sorry, the cover is missing) that
describes "How A Loudspeaker Works". It uses the term
"compliance" for the outer edge of the cone that flexes
during operation. It is the compliance that I was referring to.
I also recall that there were ribs in the "cone" of the 140,
but not in the 130.
Right or wrong, I always look at the voice coil diameter
when checking out new woofer specs, remembering that the 130
and 140 (and others) had 4" voice coils. Anything less seems
like a compromise (I know, it's more complex than that).
Likewise with edge-wound rectangular wire (or hex-shaped
wire that some speakers use, which also uses the available
space most efficiently). Regular round wire seems so wrong!
Thank you.
Harvey Gerst
>I was referring to the surround when I said that I thought
>the 140 had more ribs, lowering the resonant frequency.
>Actually, I just dug out an old JBL publication that seems
>to be dated from 1975 (sorry, the cover is missing) that
>describes "How A Loudspeaker Works". It uses the term
>"compliance" for the outer edge of the cone that flexes
>during operation. It is the compliance that I was referring to.
Yes, the surround is also called the compliance. You may well be right about the
D140F having more pleats in the compliance; I don't remember. The idea that more
pleats in the surround will lower the resonant frequency is wrong. It depends on
the stiffness of those pleats. Very low resonance speakers, for example, use a
single foam roll to achieve a low resonance. For the record, I believe the
initial resonance of both the D130F and the D140F were about the same - 40 to
45Hz when brand new, but they would drop over time as they were broken in.
I'm not familiar with the JBL publication you mentioned. The original manual for
using JBL musical instrument speakers in custom boxes was the "SL-702" manual,
which I wrote. It was still being printed many years after I left, and I did an
update on the manual for JBL many years later.
>I also recall that there were ribs in the "cone" of the 140,
>but not in the 130.
Correct, if you mean the reinforcing ribs, not the surround pleats.
>Right or wrong, I always look at the voice coil diameter
>when checking out new woofer specs, remembering that the 130
>and 140 (and others) had 4" voice coils. Anything less seems
>like a compromise (I know, it's more complex than that).
>Likewise with edge-wound rectangular wire (or hex-shaped
>wire that some speakers use, which also uses the available
>space most efficiently). Regular round wire seems so wrong!
The 4" voice coils and the flat wire were pretty unique to the JBL speakers. At
the time, one man (Howard Wiser) made all the voice coils for all the JBL
speakers, flattening the round wire, and then turning the wire 1/4 turn onto its
narrow edge (by hand) as he wound the voice coil bobbins. Howard would hold the
tension perfectly by hand (by squeezing the wire lightly between his index
finger and thumb), as he wound the coils, otherwise you'd get one wire sticking
up too high, which ruined the coil.
He had one little room (about 8' x 12') at the back of the plant, and it was
filled with all these wonderful looking Rube Goldberg machines that JBL's
engineers came up with for doing all this stuff.
John Hardy
> The 4" voice coils and the flat wire were pretty unique to the JBL speakers. At
> the time, one man (Howard Wiser) made all the voice coils for all the JBL
> speakers, flattening the round wire, and then turning the wire 1/4 turn onto its
> narrow edge (by hand) as he wound the voice coil bobbins. Howard would hold the
> tension perfectly by hand (by squeezing the wire lightly between his index
> finger and thumb), as he wound the coils, otherwise you'd get one wire sticking
> up too high, which ruined the coil.
>
> He had one little room (about 8' x 12') at the back of the plant, and it was
> filled with all these wonderful looking Rube Goldberg machines that JBL's
> engineers came up with for doing all this stuff.
That is very interesting. Sounds similar to the person who
did the ribbons for Shure mics once upon a time.
I rummaged through my library of audio data and found a 1976
publication ("PC/76" on the back cover), entitled "JBL
Professional Series". Among other things, it shows the "K"
series, including the K110, K120, K130, K140, K145 and K151
"Musical Instrument Loudspeakers". There is a group photo
and you can easily see the reinforcing ribs in the cone of
the 140, but a plain cone for the 130. But it looks like the
surround, or compliance, has the same number of ribs/pleats
for both models. My memory was faulty there (not unusual).
The free air resonance of the 130 is listed as 40Hz, the 140
is 30Hz. I could probably scan the photo and/or the specs if
anyone really wanted to see them. Thank you.
Harvey Gerst
At that point, that "PC/76" publication was probably the brainchild of Tony
Lowe, who took over the MI division after I left. Tony came from the sales
department. Any "specs" from that period, I would be damn suspicious of. The
MI dept. started playing fast and loose with "specs" around that time.
Since I envisioned the D140F as a bass speaker for electric basses, I would not
have bothered to specify a lower resonant frequency for it. Most of the systems
at that time didn't really produce much 40Hz, especially electric basses, where
they're using shorter scale strings that produce more 80Hz stuff than the
fundamental. There were no synths or electric pianos at that time, so a low
resonance (like 30Hz) wouldn't have made any sense to me.
I'd still be willing to wager that the original D140F's (when new, right from
the factory), had a resonance in the low to mid 40's. I don't know what they
did in the "K" series; I can only speak to issues about the original "F" series
and the other JBL products of that time period.
Mike Rivers
In article <q0p940pvai2d8r00d...@4ax.com> harg...@airmail.net writes:
> pleats in the compliance
That's reminiscent of the sound of a hurdy gurdy.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Peter Larsen
> is 30Hz. I could probably scan the photo and/or the specs if
> anyone really wanted to see them. Thank you.
Please do go check the audioheritage site, and see if they have them
online, if not they may want them very very much.
> John Hardy
> The John Hardy Co.
> www.johnhardyco.com
--
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* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
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