Calling yourself "Engineer" is ILLEGAL!
Peter Clark
http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
certified mail or a, get this, $2500 fine.
The man at the state board was polite and admittedly reluctant to
file on him, but the laws the law and a complaint is a complaint. He had
nothing to say about the fact that dozens of other studios use the term
engineer, or that its industry practice, or that audio engineers; unlike
building engineers, don't affect the health, safety, or welfare of the
general public ( insert your own snide remarks) and DONT BELONG TO OR
REPRESENT THAT THEY ARE PART OF A STATE LICENSED ORGANIZATION!
What do you all think about that?
John L Rice
lot more types of 'engineers' out there than structual, mechanical,
electrical, and audio too. Bio, genetic, marketing, sales, teaching, train,
etc.
John L Rice
Dru...@ImJohn.com
"Peter Clark" <dil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:dilcorp-E346B9...@netnews.attbi.com...
guid0
stepped up to the plate and batted:
It makes me think of the situation up here in Canada where MCSE's
(microsoft certified system engineers) can't use the term "engineer"
for the same kind of reasons. They are simply "mcse" with no
explanation of the abbreviation.
I betcha all engineers are also freemasons! ; )
G.../0
Scott Dorsey
I think if you want to call yourself an engineer you should go out and
take the PE test.
Honestly, I am just as pissed off as the licensing board is about the
dilution of the word "engineer."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
nmm
> What do you all think about that?
Do you need a degree to join the AES?
Paul R
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b3lp2g$al7$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
> >According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
> >http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
> >
> > You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
> >in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
> >complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
> >his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
> >and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
Actually, I am a Professional Engineer (Structural) in Ontario, Canada. We
also have similar laws. Most juristictions do.
While, on the surface it may sound silly, these laws exist to protect the
public.
As a Professional Engineer, I have certain responsibities to the public that
a non-professional does not have to worry about. I am put into a position
of public trust everytime I design a structure.
We cannot have people mis-representing thier skills and doing this kind of
work - people can be hurt or even killed.
Cheers!
Paul
Rob Adelman
John L Rice wrote:
>
> Seems like bull but there are a lot of weird laws out there. There are a
> lot more types of 'engineers' out there than structual, mechanical,
> electrical, and audio too. Bio, genetic, marketing, sales, teaching, train,
> etc.
I have thought about this before, and wondered where the term audio
engineer actually came from. I believe all the other "engineers" you
mentioned have some type of educational degree. Not sure about train
engineer though.
-Rob
Peter Clark
I also don't think all audio engineers are equal. But if you work at a
Professional Studio recording music, your job title is Recording
Engineer. If you are credited on the recording, your credit is Audio
Engineer. This is industry standard. If you go to the web site of this
agency you can clearly see it is out of range. We ain't building
skyscrapers here.
When asked who filed the complaint, the agency said "One of your
competitors". They need to enforce it for EVERYONE, not just competiors
looking for a cheap shot. That's all I'm complaining about.
Whether or not a college degree makes a better engineer is for
another thread. Im sure a few choice names would surface though.
Scott Dorsey
>I totally understand having Professional Societies and Standards boards.
>I also don't think all audio engineers are equal. But if you work at a
>Professional Studio recording music, your job title is Recording
>Engineer. If you are credited on the recording, your credit is Audio
>Engineer. This is industry standard. If you go to the web site of this
>agency you can clearly see it is out of range. We ain't building
>skyscrapers here.
Try "audio technician." Yes, a lot of people put "Engineer" on their
door, but if you don't have an engineering degree and you didn't pass
the PE test, you aren't a real engineer according to the law.
And that goes double for software engineers.
> When asked who filed the complaint, the agency said "One of your
>competitors". They need to enforce it for EVERYONE, not just competiors
>looking for a cheap shot. That's all I'm complaining about.
Well, write them letters complaining about your competitors and demand
they also change.
> Whether or not a college degree makes a better engineer is for
>another thread. Im sure a few choice names would surface though.
Just having an engineering degree doesn't legally give you the right
to call yourself an engineer. You have to pass the PE exam (with
or without a degree, although it sure would be easier to pass it
with the degree).
reddred
> Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
> >I totally understand having Professional Societies and Standards boards.
> >I also don't think all audio engineers are equal. But if you work at a
> >Professional Studio recording music, your job title is Recording
> >Engineer. If you are credited on the recording, your credit is Audio
> >Engineer. This is industry standard. If you go to the web site of this
> >agency you can clearly see it is out of range. We ain't building
> >skyscrapers here.
>
> Try "audio technician." Yes, a lot of people put "Engineer" on their
> door, but if you don't have an engineering degree and you didn't pass
> the PE test, you aren't a real engineer according to the law.
>
> And that goes double for software engineers.
>
That's nice and all, and I can't really argue about the propriety or the
reasons behind the law, but when half the nations public schools have
'sanitation engineers' then the law is effectively meaningless and a new
system needs to be devised.
Everybody else has to have letters after their names.
jb
paul
that he was an "Audio Engineer". Myself, i think it's the height of
arrogance to try to claim that the word "Engineer" can ONLY be used in
reference to a single proffession. It may be the law, but that doesn't mean
it makes sense. If i come to your house and present myself as an engineer
and offer to rebuild your porch, you would have a legitimate safety issue.
When its in the yellow pages under 'recording' i think its a pretty far
reach to say that someone using the term "Audio Engineer" is a case of
"people mis-representing thier skills"
paul
audio engineer
former software engineer
also used to engineer for a model train set i used to own
"Paul R" <n...@way.com> wrote in message
news:b3lqik$1nfkk8$1...@ID-164016.news.dfncis.de...
Peter Clark
and replace the term engineer. It helps to get feedback from others
about this. Thanks for you responses.
Now I ve got to go and file complaints against every Audio
Engineering school in the Country (Berklee and MTSU included) and get
them to change the names of their programs. Oh and every studio in the
world, oh and every record label,. Wow this job is bigger than I thought
;-)
Chris Coleman
There are a
> lot more types of 'engineers' out there than structual, mechanical,
> electrical, and audio too. Bio, genetic, marketing, sales, teaching, train,
> etc.
>
> John L Rice
> Dru...@ImJohn.com
Let's not forget Domestic Engineer...
Peter Clark
klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
> Try "audio technician." Yes, a lot of people put "Engineer" on their
> door, but if you don't have an engineering degree and you didn't pass
> the PE test, you aren't a real engineer according to the law.
Thanks for the suggestion. Once again. Industry standard. Recording
Engineers record and mix. Audio technicians repair, modify, and
calibrate gear. I think I'll stick with a generic word like "staff".
Mike Cleaver
claiming to have trademarked the word "biography".
On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:23:10 GMT, Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com>
wrote:
Mike Cleaver Broadcast Services
Voice-overs, Newscaster, Engineering and Consulting
Vancouver, BC, Canada
radiov...@hotmail.com
Fletcher
No.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
or playing the Dr. Laura of hum at:
http://recpit.prosoundweb.com
Fletcher
> What do you all think about that?
I'm fine with whatever they want to call the job... as long as the fucking
checks clear.
mbenson9
"John L Rice" <Dru...@ImJohn.com> wrote in message
> Bio, genetic, marketing, sales, teaching, train,
> etc.
You forgot custodial.............
--
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
405.728.7005
Justin Ulysses Morse
> I have thought about this before, and wondered where the term audio
> engineer actually came from. I believe all the other "engineers" you
> mentioned have some type of educational degree. Not sure about train
> engineer though.
The train engineer gets his title from the fact that he drives the
engine of the train.
master of the obvious,
ulysses
Graham Hinton
"nmm" <voxmasn(spam)@arvotek.net> wrote:
>Do you need a degree to join the AES?
The AES is just a club, not an Engineering Institute.
There are different levels of membership, you do not need academic
qualifications for all categories, but it helps. Otherwise you can have no
qualifications, start a major international audio company, pour lots of
money in and they will call you a Sustaining Member.
Graham Hinton
Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
>I also don't think all audio engineers are equal. But if you work at a
>Professional Studio recording music, your job title is Recording
>Engineer. If you are credited on the recording, your credit is Audio
>Engineer. This is industry standard.
No, it is not. The only thing that is standard in the recording industry is
that people make up job titles and get away with it. Nobody actually has
"teaboy" or "tape op" on their business card do they?
(One of my favourite business cards was that of the late Doug Dickie of SSL
which said "Intergalatic Vice-President for Design Communications".)
There are lots of people in the audio/recording industry that call
themselves "engineers", but as far as I'm concerned they are not worthy of
the description unless they can make up their own XLR cables - whatever
letters they may have after their names.
Justin Ulysses Morse
> When its in the yellow pages under 'recording' i think its a pretty far
> reach to say that someone using the term "Audio Engineer" is a case of
> "people mis-representing thier skills"
Idunno, you should see some of the jackasses calling themselves "Audio
Engineer."
ulysses
Mike Rivers
> We cannot have people mis-representing thier skills and doing this kind of
> work - people can be hurt or even killed.
True. Recording audio is very dangerous.
In England, "engineer" is what we call a machinst over here.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Rob Adelman
Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:
>
> The train engineer gets his title from the fact that he drives the
> engine of the train.
>
> master of the obvious,
> ulysses
Yes o master of the obvious one, that part is obvious my son...
The question is does he have an engineering degree? I would guess no.
reddred
"Graham Hinton" <hit...@spammer.deathsquad.com> wrote in message
news:BA846B189...@0.0.0.0...
> but as far as I'm concerned they are not worthy of
> the description unless they can make up their own XLR cables - whatever
> letters they may have after their names.
>
All you have to do is build a cable? Jeez...
jb
reddred
"Rob Adelman" <rade...@mn.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3E5EC440...@mn.rr.com...
I can drive the engine of my car. Are I one too?
jb
Graham Playford
"mbenson9" <mben...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:gyy7a.146923$K71....@news1.central.cox.net...
Peter Clark
hit...@spammer.deathsquad.com (Graham Hinton) wrote:
I'm not talking about good or bad engineers but I knew it would come up.
That happens in all professions. Actually that furthers my point that it
is an Industry Standard, worthy or not, they are called Engineers, not
technicians, not tea boys/tape ops.
I just feel silly being made, under threat of a $2500 state fine
removing the word "Engineer" from the studios web site. It is a common
industry term.
NeilH011
>That happens in all professions. Actually that furthers my point that it
>is an Industry Standard, worthy or not, they are called Engineers, not
>technicians, not tea boys/tape ops.
> I just feel silly being made, under threat of a $2500 state fine
>removing the word "Engineer" from the studios web site. It is a common
>industry term.
And I think that's the argument right there.. the fact that in the
entertainment industry, one is expected to take the appropriate credit on the
project for the work they performed. If I decide to go out & buy an Arriflex &
shoot a movie all by myself, I would be perfectly entitled to list my credits
as: "director, producer, film editor, screenplay by, etc., etc." despite the
fact that I am neither skilled in any of these areas, nor a member of any of
the associated guilds for each of those areas of the industry.
Likewise, in the field of the recording arts, if one performs the tasks
associated with "engineering" a recording, one is entitled to take credit as
such, and advertise one's services as having done so. That's it, end of
story... use that argument & I don't think they could force the issue.
Otherwise, they can go around fining all the businesses who name their stores:
"The Furniture Doctor" or some such thing, because they're not REEEEALLY a
doctor, now, are they?
NeilH
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
> http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
> You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
> in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
> complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
> his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
> and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
> certified mail or a, get this, $2500 fine.
> The man at the state board was polite and admittedly reluctant to
> file on him, but the laws the law and a complaint is a complaint. He had
> nothing to say about the fact that dozens of other studios use the term
> engineer, or that its industry practice, or that audio engineers; unlike
> building engineers, don't affect the health, safety, or welfare of the
> general public ( insert your own snide remarks) and DONT BELONG TO OR
> REPRESENT THAT THEY ARE PART OF A STATE LICENSED ORGANIZATION!
> What do you all think about that?
I think it's been that way in Texas since before the dinosaurs died.
Makes no difference if you have a degree in engineering, either; you
must be a licensed member of their club to use the term.
A friend of mine hit this in the late '60s with a motorcycle shop called
something like Competition Engineering. Both he and his partner had
engineering degress from UT. Made no difference. A week after getting
notice they had a new name: Competition Injuneering.
Secure in their intelligence the Texus licensed engineers enjoy their
exclusivity. Seen the TX highways? Remember hearing Dolf Brtiscoe tell
them Texuns they had the best freeways in duh world? That was a long
time ago, before them licensed Texus engineers had discovered on and
offramps. <g>
--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
John L Rice
> Just having an engineering degree doesn't legally give you the right
> to call yourself an engineer. You have to pass the PE exam
Scott,
Weird. I guess if you are building skyscrapers and bridges, etc, being in
good physical shape would be important to your job because of all of those
girders and big buckets of rivets you'd have to haul around, but it seems
strange that you would have to pass PE class to legally call yourself an
engineer.
John L Rice
Dru...@ImJohn.com
John L Rice
"Chris Coleman" <lyndhol...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa9bc045.03022...@posting.google.com...
Calm down you soccer mom! ;-)
John L Rice
Dru...@ImJohn.com
John L Rice
Main Entry: 1en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of
enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier to
contrive, from engin
Date: 14th century
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or
follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries
through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus
"guid0" <pri...@gunga.din> wrote in message
news:s9ps5vktm6uhjslg1...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:14:43 GMT, Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com>
> stepped up to the plate and batted:
>
> >According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
> >http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
> >
> > You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
> >in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
> >complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
> >his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
> >and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
> >certified mail or a, get this, $2500 fine.
> > The man at the state board was polite and admittedly reluctant to
> >file on him, but the laws the law and a complaint is a complaint. He had
> >nothing to say about the fact that dozens of other studios use the term
> >engineer, or that its industry practice, or that audio engineers; unlike
> >building engineers, don't affect the health, safety, or welfare of the
> >general public ( insert your own snide remarks) and DONT BELONG TO OR
> >REPRESENT THAT THEY ARE PART OF A STATE LICENSED ORGANIZATION!
> > What do you all think about that?
>
> It makes me think of the situation up here in Canada where MCSE's
> (microsoft certified system engineers) can't use the term "engineer"
> for the same kind of reasons. They are simply "mcse" with no
> explanation of the abbreviation.
>
> I betcha all engineers are also freemasons! ; )
>
>
> G.../0
another viewer
Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
> According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
> http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
> What do you all think about that?
I always thought that an engineer drove the train and wore striped overalls and a hat.
Adair Winter
Adair
flint
I am a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. Since the title Engineer is
modified by being associated with Microsoft, I can legally use the term
engineer without breaking any laws. However, if I were to simply use the
title "Engineer" I would be breaking the law. My job title used to Systems
Engineer. The only way I was able to keep my title was to use my employer's
name in front of it as a modifier, making it legal. So I had to use "xxx
corp Systems Engineer" whenever referring to my title.
I don't know how this helps or hurts, but in Texas they allow for a few loop
holes.
- Flint
"Peter Clark" <dil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:dilcorp-E346B9...@netnews.attbi.com...
> According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
> http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
>
> You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
> in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
> complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
> his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
> and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
> certified mail or a, get this, $2500 fine.
> The man at the state board was polite and admittedly reluctant to
> file on him, but the laws the law and a complaint is a complaint. He had
> nothing to say about the fact that dozens of other studios use the term
> engineer, or that its industry practice, or that audio engineers; unlike
> building engineers, don't affect the health, safety, or welfare of the
> general public ( insert your own snide remarks) and DONT BELONG TO OR
> REPRESENT THAT THEY ARE PART OF A STATE LICENSED ORGANIZATION!
Ben Bradley
But have they passed the PE exam? And if not, dare they call
themselves engineers in Texas?
>master of the obvious,
>ulysses
Peter Clark
neil...@cs.com (NeilH011) wrote:
>
> Otherwise, they can go around fining all the businesses who name their stores:
> "The Furniture Doctor" or some such thing, because they're not REEEEALLY a
> doctor, now, are they?
>
> NeilH
This one wins the prize. Thanks for the laughs. I knew you guys (notice
I didn't say Engineers, since I don't know your credentials) would cheer
me up! Too funny!
Bobby Longsocks
than claim to the specifics, and letters that follow the word.
There are many different kinds of professional engineers, that have a
responsibility to public health, and safety, to be certified, this
validation should is verified in the letters that precede their
professional name, Like M.D, B.A, etc…..
Anyone placing letters associated with state certification after their
name, without the credentials, should be prosecuted for fraud.
The word doctor should not be illegal, if I want to advertise the fact
that I'm the "Doctor of Funk" I should have every bit of access
constitutionally to every word of the English language, metaphorically,
or literally, describing what I do, and selling my services.
Now, if I advertise "Certified MD I can take out your appendix", but
I'm really a funk bass player, I should rot in prison.
The word engineer defined in our language by Funk and Wagnall's
Standard Dictionary, has a broad variation of meanings, in of which the
following appear….
En-gi-neer (en'je'nir') ---- 1.One versed in or practicing in any branch
of engineering (see engineering) 2.--- One who operates an engine
1. to put through or manage by contrivance : to engineer a scheme 2.
to plan or superintend as an engineer.
En-gi-neer-ing (en'je'nir'ing) ----- 1. Clever planning or maneuvering.
En-gi-ne (en'je'n) - - - - 1.an apparatus or mechanical contrivance for
producing some effect.
Just according to definition # 2 of engineer (one who operates an
engine), and the definition of engine (apparatus or mechanical
contrivance for producing some effect.), as defined in our language, a
console is an engine, if you can make it do anything, described as "Some
effect" you are officially defined by our language as an engineer.
Just as I don't want a structural engineer modifying DNA and playing
with genetic material for commercial medical product release, in a bio
lab, I don't want a bio engineer designing my highways or skyscrapers.
Both "Types" of engineers have an impact on health and safety, and
through their certification, require letters stating their credentials,
so that you, I, and employers know what they can and can't do, for our
safety, and health, there is no way that someone titled "Audio
Engineer" will be offered either jobs.
With the legal system, the only argument for the safety of the public,
can be.....that if someone is granted the responsibility of maintaining
the job of structural engineer, bio engineer, locomotive engineer etc……
that they all append letters of their certification to their titles,
such as C.S.E for certified structural engineer etc….. and that they are
all state tested every 2 years.
There can be no argument in court, to reserve any word from the
English language, to be used only by a member of a government sanctioned
and controlled guild.
Seeing as the fact that a bad mix never killed anyone (please tell the
story if I'm wrong) I don't think we'll have to worry any time soon
about becoming "Board Certified" and things remain the same, we've got
bad engineers, good engineers, educated, and non educated, Mackie, and
SSL, digital v.s analog
I'd fight the government in court; then again, I'm a stubborn,
opinionated, miserable crass bastard when challenged about my rights to
anything.
By the way….
I am definitely not the "Doctor of Funk" nor am I a bass player, all
analogies were used for your entertainment only.
Bobby Longsocks
In article <dilcorp-E346B9...@netnews.attbi.com>,
dil...@attbi.com says...
NeilH011
>story if I'm wrong)
OK, there was this time recently when I played Rush's "Vapor Trails" CD for a
friend of mine...
NeilH
mbenson9
"I am NOT an engineer....I'm a fuckin' sound guy!"
--
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
405.728.7005
"Adair Winter" <ad...@revivedrecords.com> wrote in message
news:85C7a.1034$0g4.28...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Bobby Longsocks
@cs.com says...
Bobby
nmm
I've been to a couple of events sponsered by them.. and I appreciate there
is an organisation doing this.
www.aes.org lists AES sponsered events worldwide.
nmm
And i always thought I had some form of OCD becauuse i won't let people
work on my car, and i don't using conections soldered by other people. (
except internal circuit stuff).
When it;s warm enough and i have some downtime I will drop a new engine
into my car.
In the meantime i'm soldering a Soca 36 pin onto my FOH drive rack, and
Drive Rack Snake.
Justin Ulysses Morse
> I can drive the engine of my car. Are I one too?
No, you drive your car. A train engineer drives the engine of the
train, which is powered by the engine mounted in the engine of the
train. Unless it's an electric train, in which the train is powered by
the motor in the engine. Get it? NO? That's why you're not an
engineer!
ulysses
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> Thank you all for you replies. My friend is glad to comply with the law
> and replace the term engineer. It helps to get feedback from others
> about this. Thanks for you responses.
> Now I ve got to go and file complaints against every Audio
> Engineering school in the Country (Berklee and MTSU included) and get
> them to change the names of their programs. Oh and every studio in the
> world, oh and every record label,. Wow this job is bigger than I thought
> ;-)
I think you're onto something. <g> I also think that if one of my
competitors did to me what they did to your friend that they had better
be extemely certain that every tiny detail of their facility was up to
building and zoning codes and that every piece of paper required by
every bureaucracy was secure in their grasp. Othewise I'd have their ass
in a couple of weeks.
And, if _that's_ the level upon which they think to compete for
_recording work_ I'd have their ass already.
--
ha
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> This is about as funny as the Arts and Entertainment TV Networl
> claiming to have trademarked the word "biography".
If the dumbshits had been smart enough to spell it "Biografy" they be in
like mine12u's finger.
--
ha
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> There are lots of people in the audio/recording industry that call
> themselves "engineers", but as far as I'm concerned they are not worthy of
> the description unless they can make up their own XLR cables - whatever
> letters they may have after their names.
Graham's nailed it. As I said to a guy who asked me what I thought was
the most important thing a bandleader had to know, "How to solder".
--
ha
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> Myself, i think it's the height of arrogance to try to claim that the word
> "Engineer" can ONLY be used in reference to a single proffession. It may
> be the law, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.
Heh, Paul, this is in _Texas_ so take it from there... <G>
--
ha
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> Actually, I am a Professional Engineer (Structural) in Ontario, Canada. We
> also have similar laws. Most juristictions do.
> While, on the surface it may sound silly, these laws exist to protect the
> public.
How about those perfeshunal strukshural engineers that done gone and
designed that there Toys "Were" Us that collapsed under snow load?
I'll wager you this: if Fletcher and I had designed that building it
would not have collapsed. That's cuz he's a clean cut kid and he's been
to college, too.
(Here's hoping you have a well engineered sense of humors...)
dmorrell
>Try "audio technician." Yes, a lot of people put "Engineer" on their
>door, but if you don't have an engineering degree and you didn't pass
>the PE test, you aren't a real engineer according to the law.
>
>And that goes double for software engineers.
It's difficult to come up with a fair multiplier for "sales
engineer". Quadruple? More? More.
There oughta be a...
Don
bja...@users.iwaynet.net
> You say this is in Texas, so I will speak up about my experience in Texas.
> I am a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. Since the title Engineer is
> modified by being associated with Microsoft, I can legally use the term
> engineer without breaking any laws. However, if I were to simply use the
> title "Engineer" I would be breaking the law. My job title used to Systems
> Engineer. The only way I was able to keep my title was to use my employer's
> name in front of it as a modifier, making it legal. So I had to use "xxx
> corp Systems Engineer" whenever referring to my title.
> I don't know how this helps or hurts, but in Texas they allow for a few loop
> holes.
This is correct. The restrictions are you can't simply call yourself
an "engineer" or "consulting engineer" without the PE (professional
engineer) credentials. However one could use the term "recording
engineer" without a problem. Also another exemption is engineering
for manufacturing. So when as noted, you are a systems engineer for
a company and put the company name in front of it, you are automatically
exempted. When I applied for my PE I had been working at the time
for a variety of manufacturing companies. [Experience in the field
is one requirement for getting the certification] Well, the old
geezer who interviewed me noted my occupation on the form as
engineering consultant and wanted to know "how you can do this?"
I told him I only provde service for manufacturing companies.
(which made it legal) he frowned and accepted my answer but
the bastard still gave me the lowest passing grade he could!
he said, "you are on very thin ice". Asshole! Luckily everybody
bombed the math part of the test and they graded them up so
high that even with his lowball score I still did better
than 100% overall! Yeah, they are really jerky about this.
Just learn how to word yourself to fit the loopholes.
The deal about being a real Engineer, though, is that
you have this stamp, and once you stamp the drawings
with it, you take personal resposibility for the plans.
If the skywalk falls down, YOUR ass gets into
a sling! I'm thinking some recording engineers ought
to have to stamp their work as well! :-)
Benj
(Whose favorite Professional engineer story is when they were taken
to court where their "code of ethics" was found to be nothing
more than price fixing! The court made them mail out to every
registered engineer a new "code of ethics" with the illegal
price fixing removed! A really fine bunch of guys!)
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
KFLEDMAN
stores:
> "The Furniture Doctor" or some such thing, because they're not REEEEALLY a
> doctor, now, are they?
>
> NeilH >>
So, do you think Dr. John might be getting fined too???? Or is he a real
doctor?
Ken Feldman
Stranded on the Island Manhattan
hear my songs FREE @ www.MP3.com/KenFeldman
(did I mention that was FREE?)
BANNETTS3
"I'm a Doctor, not an Engineer!"
{Omit "NOJUNK" from my email address if sending response}
hollywood_steve
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 7:14 PM, Peter Clark <mailto:dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > What do you all think about that?
>
I don't think that you need a degreee, but it is one of the possible
qualifications. When I joined several years ago, it was as an
associate member, because while I do have an accredited engineering
degree, I did not have a history of professional experience as an
audio engineer.
But, in any event, a P.E. registration is not granted based solely on
a degree. There are a series of exams that lead up to the title of
P.E. Its different for the different disciplines, but there is
nothing like a P.E. for audio engineering. The AES is a professional
society but membership does not mean you can use the title "engineer."
steve
lex...@pacbell.net
Ryan Mitchley
Ryan
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
nuke
And that goes double for software engineers. >><BR><BR>
Depends on the state.
I'm job classed as "engineer/scientist" for this very reason.
Most places I can be an engineer. I went to engineering school, swore I'd never
write software. So here I am.
In Texas, I'd have to call myself a scientist.
--
Dr. Nuketopia
Spam filtering is off. AO-Hell catches most of it now.
Willie K.Yee, M.D.
& hank alrich) wrote:
>A week after getting
>notice they had a new name: Competition Injuneering.
Not PC these days. How about for us: In-yon-earing. Describes exactly
what we do - design stuff to put in an ear somewhere else in place or
time.
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org
Mike Rivers
> Now I ve got to go and file complaints against every Audio
> Engineering school in the Country (Berklee and MTSU included) and get
> them to change the names of their programs. Oh and every studio in the
> world, oh and every record label,. Wow this job is bigger than I thought
> ;-)
Don't forget SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television
Engineers) and the AES (Audio Engineering Society, if that counts).
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
NeilH011
>doctor?
>
John... Dre.... "J"... They're all in trouble unless we act now! So join up
today at www.preserveournomenclature.org.
NeilH
Scott Dorsey
neil...@cs.com (NeilH011) wrote:
>
>
>
> Otherwise, they can go around fining all the businesses who name their stores:
> "The Furniture Doctor" or some such thing, because they're not REEEEALLY a
> doctor, now, are they?
"Furniture Doctor" is okay, and "Furniture Medic" is okay, but I bet the
AMA would get pissed if you called yourself "Furniture M.D."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
>
>And i always thought I had some form of OCD becauuse i won't let people
>work on my car, and i don't using conections soldered by other people. (
>except internal circuit stuff).
Perfectly understandable. I opened my car computer to find it was full
of cold solder joints.
Rob Adelman
L.O.L.
Graham Hinton
"reddred" <opa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Graham Hinton" <hit...@spammer.deathsquad.com> wrote in message
>news:BA846B189...@0.0.0.0...
>
>> but as far as I'm concerned they are not worthy of
>> the description unless they can make up their own XLR cables - whatever
>> letters they may have after their names.
>>
>
>All you have to do is build a cable? Jeez...
No, not ALL, but if they can't they should be banned from working in
studios without an adult present.
Then if we have a quick written test on DI box theory that would get rid of
98% of the people calling themselves "sound engineers".
Graham Hinton
Peter Clark <dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
>I'm not talking about good or bad engineers but I knew it would come up.
>That happens in all professions. Actually that furthers my point that it
>is an Industry Standard, worthy or not, they are called Engineers, not
>technicians, not tea boys/tape ops.
Not in capitals they aren't, that is your inference. In sound/audio
engineering there are no proper qualifications or recognised institutions
which is the nub of the problem. What goes within the industry is one
thing, but when it comes up against the real world it is quite anaother.
I'm afraid that "industry standard" is as misused a term as "engineer" so
arguing on that basis will not get you far, probably nowhere legally.
> I just feel silly being made, under threat of a $2500 state fine
>removing the word "Engineer" from the studios web site. It is a common
>industry term.
Sorry, ignorance of the law, or disagreeing with it, is never a valid or
worthwhile defence. If you disagree with it and defy it you'll get
squashed, so either work round it or change it.
Graham Hinton
mri...@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:
>In England, "engineer" is what we call a machinst over here.
I thought we called them mechanics :)
"Engineer" has pretty much the same meaning here, both in common usage and
professional qualification.
Having an engineering degree does not make somebody an "Engineer", but they
can put B.Sc or B.A. as appropriate after their name. To become a
recognised "Chartered Engineer" and put C.Eng after their name they have to
belong to a recognised Engineering Institute (IEE or IERE, like your IEEE)
and pass their formal requirements both academically and in experience. AES
and APRS are not those sort of professional bodies - useful yes, but no
real clout.
Falsely pretending to be a C.Eng would bring about the same sort of
repercussions as calling yourself an Engineer in Texas.
James Watt was certainly not a C.Eng and I don't think I.K.Brunel was
either, but they are still great engineers to most peoples' minds. Some
people are just born engineers, others will never be however qualified, but
there is no legal definition for that.
Ty Ford
<dil...@attbi.com> wrote:
>According to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers
>http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/index.htm
>
> You can't use the term engineer in advertising your Recording Studio
>in Texas. How do I know? Some lowlife studio competitor filed a
>complaint on a friend of mines Studio for using the word "engineer" on
>his web site. So now this Government agency for structual, mechanical,
>and electrical engineers is sending him a cease and desist order by
>certified mail or a, get this, $2500 fine.
> The man at the state board was polite and admittedly reluctant to
>file on him, but the laws the law and a complaint is a complaint. He had
>nothing to say about the fact that dozens of other studios use the term
>engineer, or that its industry practice, or that audio engineers; unlike
>building engineers, don't affect the health, safety, or welfare of the
>general public ( insert your own snide remarks) and DONT BELONG TO OR
>REPRESENT THAT THEY ARE PART OF A STATE LICENSED ORGANIZATION!
> What do you all think about that?
I am an engineer; licensed by the Federal Government. I hold an FCC General
Radiotelephone Operator License #PG-4-6204. It was commuted from a First
Class Radiotelephone Operator license in 1984 when they changed the rules.
While the certificate doesn't specifically use the word engineer, it does go
on to say, "This certifies that the individual named and described below is
a licensed radio operator and is authorized to operate licensed radio
stations for which this class is valid. The authority granted is subject to
and endorsement placed on the license. The authority granted is also subject
to the orders, rules, and regulations of the Federal Communications
Commission, the statutes of the United States and the provision of any
treaties to which the United Stes is a party, which are binding upon radio
operators."
I think you can get a lower class operator's license pretty easily these
days. Maybe they would suffice.
Regards,
Ty Ford
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford
Scott Dorsey
>In article <znr1046383540k@trad>,
>mri...@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:
>
>>In England, "engineer" is what we call a machinst over here.
>
>I thought we called them mechanics :)
No, in the UK, all kinds of people are mechanics. Carpenters and drywall
layers are mechanics, aren't they?
Mike Rivers
> > Do you need a degree to join the AES?
>
> I don't think that you need a degreee, but it is one of the possible
> qualifications. When I joined several years ago, it was as an
> associate member, because while I do have an accredited engineering
> degree, I did not have a history of professional experience as an
> audio engineer.
When I joined about 30 years ago you needed references from three
members in order to join as a full member, otherwise you were an
associate. Cost the same, got you the same things (maybe associates
couldn't vote?) and nobody ever asked which kind of member you were.
They also have student memberships which are cheaper.
There's a new wrinkle this year. You can deduct $30 from the rather
hefty $90 annual membership fee and not get paper copies of the
Journal, but get them on-line in PDF format instead. Me, I'd rather
have the paper.
Scott Dorsey
>
>I am an engineer; licensed by the Federal Government. I hold an FCC General
>Radiotelephone Operator License #PG-4-6204. It was commuted from a First
>Class Radiotelephone Operator license in 1984 when they changed the rules.
In Virginia at least, a First Phone doesn't allow you to call yourself an
engineer. Nor does the SBE certification. You still need the PE stamp.
Jay Kadis
writes:
You should have let the engine warm up first.
-Jay--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x
Rob Reedijk
most engineers are qualified by the iron ring, I am forced to use the
word since that is the proper credit that I want on a recording. While
I sometimes prefer "sound recordist" since that is what I am, when it
comes to your qualifications you want engineer or producer on those
album credits.
I wonder if you can legally get by if you always refer to yourself as an
"audio engineer", i.e. "engineer" is always qualified by "audio".
I wonder if that cease and desist order is superflous. It also sounds like
you are being made an example of. I would also consider turning it into
a lot of free publicity. Get it into the newspapers and make your
studio have a higher profile. Now wouldn't that be a way to make it
backfire nicely on your competitor who twisted the law to benefit himself?
Rob R.
Evangelos HIMONIDES
mechane = engine
MECHANIC is ANYone that does anything to an engine
MECHANOLOGIST is the one that has the degree (or the "knowledge") aka the
engineer
Best Regards
Evangelos
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b3nvd4$nj6$1...@panix2.panix.com...
John LeBlanc
"guid0" <pri...@gunga.din> wrote in message
news:s9ps5vktm6uhjslg1...@4ax.com...
> It makes me think of the situation up here in Canada where MCSE's
> (microsoft certified system engineers) can't use the term "engineer"
> for the same kind of reasons. They are simply "mcse" with no
> explanation of the abbreviation.
In Texas, MSCEs who don't use the word "Engineer" are in violation of their
license agreement. Take a look at this blast from the past:
John LeBlanc
"John LeBlanc" <JohnWL...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:...
http://www.shinder.net/NetTexas/updates.htm
John
reddred
OK, but here's another view: you don't have to build anything to be able to
do the job, and people that can't build anything may be able to do the job
(which involves listening more than anything else) better than someone who
can build all their own gear. If I owned a real studio that could afford to
employ people, I may have a tech on staff (if I was nice and big), but the
'engineers' would be people who could get quality results using the
equipment under their hands.
jb
reddred
"Justin Ulysses Morse" <uly...@rollmusic.com> wrote in message
news:280220030119141987%uly...@rollmusic.com...
> reddred <opa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I can drive the engine of my car. Are I one too?
>
> No, you drive your car. A train engineer drives the engine of the
> train, which is powered by the engine mounted in the engine of the
> train. Unless it's an electric train, in which the train is powered by
> the motor in the engine. Get it? NO? That's why you're not an
> engineer!
>
> ulysses
Hey, you aint seen my car. About all that's left is the engine.
And since you missed the joke, you might want to check out what a train
engineer actually does these days.
jb
reddred
"John L Rice" <Dru...@ImJohn.com> wrote in message
news:v5tqqr8...@corp.supernews.com...
> Merriam Webster says :
>
> 2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
There you go. Where do I get certs?
jb
Graham Hinton
klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>No, in the UK, all kinds of people are mechanics. Carpenters and drywall
>layers are mechanics, aren't they?
Not in this UK. Mechanics are the people that use spanners, carpenters are
called chippies and drywall layers are called farmers, but that's because
our drywalls are stone and go around fields.
Graham Hinton
"reddred" <opa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>OK, but here's another view: you don't have to build anything to be able to
>do the job, and people that can't build anything may be able to do the job
>(which involves listening more than anything else) better than someone who
>can build all their own gear.
It is not a matter of building anything, but understanding it and having
the necessary background to deal with any problem that may come up.
The recording industry is one place that you can survive on talent without
qualifications, but that does not make it a necessary virtue.
I've seen plenty of bright people that call themselves 'sound engineers'
and know how to operate the big stuff, but when they keep everybody on a
session hanging around for a day because they do not really understand
basic engineering theory and know whether a DI box is or is not the right
way to solve a hum problem, who's kidding who?
The reason you have to study and pass exams and have experience to be
called an Engineer is so the word means something, if you call everybody
who looks like they do the job that it becomes meaningless.
david gourley
>Ty Ford <tf...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>>I am an engineer; licensed by the Federal Government. I hold an FCC
>>General Radiotelephone Operator License #PG-4-6204. It was commuted
>>from a First Class Radiotelephone Operator license in 1984 when they
>>changed the rules.
>
>In Virginia at least, a First Phone doesn't allow you to call yourself
>an engineer. Nor does the SBE certification. You still need the PE
>stamp. --scott
Same for N.C.
I thought the license was the other way around, where they merged 1st and
2nd class to General. That's what I have, anyway (lifetime status as they
said)....
david
reddred
Absolutely true. But it already happened, so what's a viable solution to the
problem?
jb
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
I have never in my life used any equipment that works well enough,
is reliable enough, and sounds good enough.
--scott dorsey
"reddred" <opa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g3CdnQFSMe5...@rockbridge.net...
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
I have never in my life used any equipment that works well enough,
is reliable enough, and sounds good enough.
--scott dorsey
"John LeBlanc" <JohnWL...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c2dnR2e8-8...@giganews.com...
EggHd
---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
Roger W. Norman
10 years ago was Tennessee, who probably have more audio engineers than any
other state in the union.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
I have never in my life used any equipment that works well enough,
is reliable enough, and sounds good enough.
--scott dorsey
"John L Rice" <Dru...@ImJohn.com> wrote in message
news:v5spi51...@corp.supernews.com...
> Seems like bull but there are a lot of weird laws out there. There are a
> lot more types of 'engineers' out there than structual, mechanical,
> electrical, and audio too. Bio, genetic, marketing, sales, teaching,
train,
> etc.
>
> John L Rice
> Dru...@ImJohn.com
>
> "Peter Clark" <dil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:dilcorp-E346B9...@netnews.attbi.com...
Peter Clark
hit...@spammer.deathsquad.com (Graham Hinton) wrote:
>
> Not in capitals they aren't, that is your inference. In sound/audio
> engineering there are no proper qualifications or recognised institutions
> which is the nub of the problem.
Berklee School of Music, Middle Tennesse State, University of Miami Full
Sail. All pretty good technical schools for Recording Arts.
What goes within the industry is one
> thing, but when it comes up against the real world it is quite anaother.
So true.
>
> I'm afraid that "industry standard" is as misused a term as "engineer" so
> arguing on that basis will not get you far, probably nowhere legally.
So true again.
>
>
> > I just feel silly being made, under threat of a $2500 state fine
> >removing the word "Engineer" from the studios web site. It is a common
> >industry term.
>
> Sorry, ignorance of the law, or disagreeing with it, is never a valid or
> worthwhile defence. If you disagree with it and defy it you'll get
> squashed, so either work round it or change it.
Hence this thread. I'm just kind of amazed it happened. Thanks for your
input.
Peter Clark
"reddred" <opa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Graham Hinton" <hit...@spammer.deathsquad.com> wrote in message
>
> OK, but here's another view: you don't have to build anything to be able to
> do the job, and people that can't build anything may be able to do the job
> (which involves listening more than anything else) better than someone who
> can build all their own gear. If I owned a real studio that could afford to
> employ people, I may have a tech on staff (if I was nice and big), but the
> 'engineers' would be people who could get quality results using the
> equipment under their hands.
>
> jb
>
>
>
25 years ago when I was visiting a studio in Munich I asked what it
took to work there. Being Germany I expected a strict requirement and
long aprenticeships. The studio manager looked at me and said " You want
to work here, fine we put you with a client, and if you make him happy,
you got the job." I was stunned by what he said. Now 25 years later, I
know what he said was true. Its all that matters. Thats why we have
people of varing technical/musical/and people skills working as
Recording Engineers.
hollywood_steve
> There's a new wrinkle this year. You can deduct $30 from the rather
> hefty $90 annual membership fee and not get paper copies of the
> Journal, but get them on-line in PDF format instead. Me, I'd rather
> have the paper.
re: the AES Journal - Although I still look forward to receiving my
copy, am I the only guy who wishes he understood more of what's in the
articles? (and I have the engineering / math background) The
Journal often reads like a collection of Math Department graduate
thesis; and I can go several pages before I am reminded that it's an
audio publication. I guess its just another excuse for me to bitch
about digital audio; at least I could understand most of the
technology behind analog audio. Digital audio theory makes my head
hurt...
steve
lex...@pacbell.net
Carey Carlan
news:ZN2dnaJySeF...@rockbridge.net:
All train engineers drive electric trains. A diesel locomotive is a
diesel-electric. The motors drive the train. Better torque at 0 rpm.
Bobby Longsocks
rmit...@iafrica.com says...
> "I'm the Doctor of Funk, and my bass is going to take your appendix out!"
>
> Ryan
>
Now you're walking (full pun intended) a fine line between the law and
the innocent distribution of funk.
--
Bobby P Longsocks
Post your crazy studio mishaps,
and funny studio stories, in my
"studio stories forum"
http://www.kalmusky.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6
reddred
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:b3ok4p$kq8$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> I didn't realize before that my ex-wife was an engineer.
>
I think there must be a secret club of them.
jb
reddred
I can certainly see the benefit of being able to wear multiple hats -
especially for the small businessman. That's true in every field. So is the
necessity being results-oriented.
jb
Les Cargill
I always liked the term "recordist".
--
Les Cargill
Mike Rivers
> re: the AES Journal - Although I still look forward to receiving my
> copy, am I the only guy who wishes he understood more of what's in the
> articles? (and I have the engineering / math background)
I do, too, and I rarely make it through more than one or two articles
in an issue. But I figure that I'm contributing to getting this stuff
published so that those who can make something of it can eventually
make something that I can use.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Mike Rivers
> Interestingly enough, the first place that I heard start griping about this
> 10 years ago was Tennessee, who probably have more audio engineers than any
> other state in the union.
Also more nuclear power engineers. I'd like those registered, please.
mine12u
> Mike Cleaver <voi...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > This is about as funny as the Arts and Entertainment TV Networl
> > claiming to have trademarked the word "biography".
>
> If the dumbshits had been smart enough to spell it "Biografy" they be in
> like mine12u's finger.
That is un-called for duchebag. You really have a small mind don't you.
ha
....asswhipe
ha
now, I am my own audience too!!!
ha
David Morgan (MAMS)
"mine12u" <mas...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:18d83aee.03030...@posting.google.com...
> walk...@thegrid.net (lanis lebaron & hank alrich) wrote in message news:<1fr26ky.17wywo01eopfbzN%walk...@thegrid.net>...
> > Mike Cleaver <voi...@telus.net> wrote:
> >
> > > This is about as funny as the Arts and Entertainment TV Networl
> > > claiming to have trademarked the word "biography".
> >
> > If the dumbshits had been smart enough to spell it "Biografy" they be in
> > like mine12u's finger.
>
>
> That is un-called for duchebag. You really have a small mind don't you.
But a very keen memory.
lanis lebaron & hank alrich
> hank alrich) wrote...
> > Mike Cleaver <voi...@telus.net> wrote:
> > > This is about as funny as the Arts and Entertainment TV Networl
> > > claiming to have trademarked the word "biography".
> > If the dumbshits had been smart enough to spell it "Biografy" they be in
> > like mine12u's finger.
> That is un-called for duchebag. You really have a small mind don't you.
> ha
> ....asswhipe
> ha
> now, I am my own audience too!!!
> ha
Smell your finger.
--
ha