help! miking a china cymbal
Colin Duffy
purchasing more components for our instruments....since last time we've
recorded, i've gotten a few more splash cymbals, mini-timbales, and a
china cymbal...to mic them all, i've got an audio technica a25 on the
kick, and sm-57's all around.....for overhead we just have some cheesy
samsons setup (just for temporary use), from there we go into a small 8
channel mixer, with a lexicon reflex, and then into a card D+. the only
thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal. i have an sm-57 on
the snare, one between the pair of timbales(left side), one between the
toms(on top of kick), and one above the floor tom. the mic on the floor
tom i just can seem to get right--the mic is located between the head of
the tom, and the ride cymbal(right above it). it picks up both of those
fine, but the second i go near the china cymbal, the signal goes thru
the roof, now i understand that the cymbal itself is quite louder than
the rest of the cymbals, but the overhead mic that is right over it
handles it fine. i have tried positioning the mic underneath of the
drum (on the floor), and aiming and moving the cymbal different ways,
but nothing seems to change the volume of it. i don't want it to be
such an upfront cymbal, it would just be nice to have that background
almost crowd cheering/garbage can lid sound to it.....any tips would be
greatly appreciated!!
colin
Fletcher
Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
of the song(s)...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
Harvey Gerst
>Fletcher
Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then record
just the china on it's own track, after the session. China cymbals, like splash
cymbals, are inherently evil - you would be wise to avoid them altogether! If
the drummer insists on using it, every time he takes a break, move it farther
and farther out of his reach - and higher.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Bill
>
> Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
>
> > Colin Duffy wrote:
> > >
> > > thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal.
> >
> >Fletcher
>
> Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then record
> just the china on it's own track, after the session. China cymbals, like splash
Uh... what if he happens to *like* the sound of a China cymbal? Sheesh,
this reminds me of the time someone posted detailed instructions on how
to get "the proper kick drum sound".
Not that I have any real good suggestions on taming a too-prominent
cymbal. Sometimes using a smaller cymbal will work, but it's not going
to sound quite the same. You might try working with the drummer,
explain the problem, and see if it's possible to whack the thing
not-quite-as-hard.
hank alrich & lanis lebaron
> > >
> > >Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
> > >sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
> > >a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
> > >cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
> > >of the song(s)...
> > >Fletcher
> >
> > Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then
> record > just the china on it's own track, after the session. China
> cymbals, like splash > cymbals, are inherently evil - you would be wise to
> avoid them altogether! If > the drummer insists on using it, every time he
> takes a break, move it farther > and farther out of his reach - and
> higher.
> >
> > Harvey Gerst
> > Indian Trail Recording Studio
> > http://www.ITRstudio.com/
>
>
> This is the same as me saying..."Put that stupid acoustic guitar back in its
> case, thier are two many different ways to mic them and i dont like the way
> they sound anyway"
>
> The china cymbal is an instrument just like anything else.
> And you guys work in studios??? No wonder i like to record my own songs. You
> all have ALOT to learn.
Actually, a china cymbal is an instrument kind of unlike anything else.
And the suggestion to record it after the fact, where one can take it
strictly on its own terms, without interfering with it or the rest of
the kit with preparations or unwieldy cymbal placement or unfortunate
mic placement is a good one, one that often works well with difficult
instruments being recorded in less than stellar acoustical environments.
As for the acoustic guitar comparison, absent decent isolation, I might
well want to track my guitar after the louder stuff is nicely down. That
doesn't mean I'm not going to record the guitar, or a china cymbal, for
that matter.
--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"if laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
vi...@my-dejanews.com
> > purchasing more components for our instruments....since last time we've
> > recorded, i've gotten a few more splash cymbals, mini-timbales, and a
> > china cymbal...to mic them all, i've got an audio technica a25 on the
> > kick, and sm-57's all around.....for overhead we just have some cheesy
> > samsons setup (just for temporary use), from there we go into a small 8
> > channel mixer, with a lexicon reflex, and then into a card D+. the only
> >
> > thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal. i have an sm-57 on
> > the snare, one between the pair of timbales(left side), one between the
> > toms(on top of kick), and one above the floor tom. the mic on the floor
> >
> > tom i just can seem to get right--the mic is located between the head of
> >
> > the tom, and the ride cymbal(right above it). it picks up both of those
> >
> > fine, but the second i go near the china cymbal, the signal goes thru
> > the roof, now i understand that the cymbal itself is quite louder than
> > the rest of the cymbals, but the overhead mic that is right over it
> > handles it fine. i have tried positioning the mic underneath of the
> > drum (on the floor), and aiming and moving the cymbal different ways,
> > but nothing seems to change the volume of it. i don't want it to be
> > such an upfront cymbal, it would just be nice to have that background
> > almost crowd cheering/garbage can lid sound to it.....any tips would be
> > greatly appreciated!!
> >
> > colin
>
> sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
> a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
> cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
> of the song(s)...
I play drums, and i can tell you this guy is an idiot. i am not just some
thrasher either, i have studied music and i play ochestral percussion as well
as drums used in rock music. A china cymbal can be really awesome if used
correctly. Just like any other percussion instrument. My first suggestion is
to NEVER listen to anyone that tells you NOT to use something or NOT to
record something. Record anything you want any way you want and that is how
you will get the most interesting and best sounding recordings. I can tell
you right now i will never go to this guys website. www.mercenary.com As far
as recording the cybal goes, i would move it if at all possible. Try to find
a position that you can still get to it when you play but it is not sitting
on top of the ride or other mics. put it up as high as you can too. Then i
would take foam or anything you can find to absorb the sound and attach them
to cardboard and attach this to the stand with tape underneath the cymbal.
Just try to make like un umbrella that goes over anything thats under the
cymbal. That way some of the sound will be blocked from the mics that are
under the cymbal on other drums. For microphone placement, i would put the
mic as far away from the cymbal as you can and move it closer until you get
the signal you want. Dont mic it close. Remember that the final recording is
all that matters, so anything you use along the way to get the sound is fine,
be creative and you will get the sounds you want. Good luck!
Dean
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Harvey Gerst
>Harvey Gerst wrote:
>> Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
>> > Colin Duffy wrote:
>> > > thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal.
>> >
>> >Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
>> >sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck....
>> >Fletcher
>>
>> Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then record
>> just the china on it's own track, after the session. China cymbals, like splash
>> cymbals, are inherently evil - you would be wise to avoid them altogether! ...
>> Harvey Gerst
>
>Uh... what if he happens to *like* the sound of a China cymbal? Sheesh,
>this reminds me of the time someone posted detailed instructions on how
>to get "the proper kick drum sound".
>
>Not that I have any real good suggestions on taming a too-prominent
>cymbal. Sometimes using a smaller cymbal will work, but it's not going
>to sound quite the same. You might try working with the drummer,
>explain the problem, and see if it's possible to whack the thing
>not-quite-as-hard.
I'd rather "whack" the drummer harder!
Harvey
vi...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> >Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
> >sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
> >a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
> >cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
> >of the song(s)...
> >Fletcher
>
> Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then
record
> just the china on it's own track, after the session. China cymbals, like
splash
> cymbals, are inherently evil - you would be wise to avoid them altogether! If
> the drummer insists on using it, every time he takes a break, move it farther
> and farther out of his reach - and higher.
>
> Harvey Gerst
> Indian Trail Recording Studio
> http://www.ITRstudio.com/
This is the same as me saying..."Put that stupid acoustic guitar back in its
case, thier are two many different ways to mic them and i dont like the way
they sound anyway"
The china cymbal is an instrument just like anything else.
And you guys work in studios??? No wonder i like to record my own songs. You
all have ALOT to learn.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Fletcher
>
> I play drums, and i can tell you this guy is an idiot. i am not just some
> thrasher either, i have studied music and i play ochestral percussion as well
> as drums used in rock music.
Gee- you should also study punctuation...but that's another story. I'm
a lot of things...an idiot isn't on the list.
A china cymbal can be really awesome if used
> correctly.
Yeah, so is Heroin...it's just soooooo difficult to use it correctly.
I've cured many a hangover with Heroin...let's see you do that book boy.
Just like any other percussion instrument. My first suggestion is
> to NEVER listen to anyone that tells you NOT to use something or NOT to
> record something.
Except if that person happens to be producing your album, or is in
control of your budget, or can fire your sorry ass...in which case doing
what you're told is a good thing.
Record anything you want any way you want and that is how
> you will get the most interesting and best sounding recordings. I can tell
> you right now i will never go to this guys website. www.mercenary.com
There is a fuckin' god!!! I have enough buttheads and morons to deal
with in the course of my day without having to deal with you...I'll bet
you 4:1 that you've already been there...you just didn't understand it.
As far
> as recording the cybal goes, i would move it if at all possible.
Yeah, to the Mid-west...or at least out of reach...
Try to find
> a position that you can still get to it when you play but it is not sitting
> on top of the ride or other mics. put it up as high as you can too.
Yep...you are a fucking genius...I stand corrected. So now that we're
moving the players instruments to fit the mics, I guess we can work
together...like I'll set up some mics here in MA...you bring your shit
over and put them near (or at least where you think the instruments
should be) the microphones...*not*.
Then i
> would take foam or anything you can find to absorb the sound and attach them
> to cardboard and attach this to the stand with tape underneath the cymbal.
Just curious...how did you live this long? What's your secret to
longevity? (I mean other than gun control laws?).
> Just try to make like un umbrella that goes over anything thats under the
> cymbal. That way some of the sound will be blocked from the mics that are
> under the cymbal on other drums. For microphone placement, i would put the
> mic as far away from the cymbal as you can and move it closer until you get
> the signal you want. Dont mic it close.
No really, how did you manage to not get shot in the head? I would
have. Most of the folks I hang with would have...other than being an
orchestral china cymbal player, and outrunning bullets, what else do you
do?
Remember that the final recording is
> all that matters, so anything you use along the way to get the sound is fine,
> be creative and you will get the sounds you want. Good luck!
>
> Dean
Dean- you ignorant slut...yeah all that matters is the final
outcome...however, a china cymbal is one of those tones, much like a
bagpipe or the pan flute, that has little or no use to the world. If
you wanna use one great, if you wanna endorse the use of one, great...if
you wanna call me an "idiot" for hating them, I'll cut you into bite
size bits. Orchestral percussion is wonderful...find me a symphony with
a china cymbal in it...find me a single piece that isn't full of atonal
crap that has a china cymbal...find me a rock and roll song with a china
cymbal hit that doesn't make me want to vomit...and I'll suck your dick
in Macy's window...OK, unfair; I'll buy you dinner...sorry about you
being dickless and all that, so the Monica motion is out of the question
in your case.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
http://www.mercenary.com
Harvey Gerst
>> >Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
>> >sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
>> >a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
>> >cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
>> >of the song(s)...
>> >Fletcher
>>
>> Yup, what Fletcher said. Or, wait till all the drum parts are down, then record
>> just the china on it's own track, after the session. China cymbals, like splash
>> cymbals, are inherently evil - you would be wise to avoid them altogether! If
>> the drummer insists on using it, every time he takes a break, move it farther
>> and farther out of his reach - and higher.
>>
>> Harvey Gerst
>
>This is the same as me saying..."Put that stupid acoustic guitar back in its
>case, thier are two many different ways to mic them and i dont like the way
>they sound anyway"
Yes it's kinda the same thing as trying to mic a cheap Ovation acoustic - it can
be done, but it's still gonna sound like shit. That's why I keep a really good
acoustic guitar at the studio, and a really good china cymbal.
>The china cymbal is an instrument just like anything else.
I think of the entire drum set as an instrument - I've never heard anyone take a
china cymbal solo.
>And you guys work in studios??? No wonder i like to record my own songs.
Nope, I play around in the studio - I make the musicians work.
And not just the musicians - I also make the drummer work, too!
A drummer was on a visit in Scotland when he spied a shepherd with a large flock
of sheep. He admired the sheep for a while and asked the shepherd, "If I can
guess how many sheep you have, can I have one?" The shepherd thought the chances
of a correct guess were slim, so he agreed. The drummer said, "You have 671
sheep." The shepherd said, "You're right - collect your prize."
As the drummer slung the nearest animal over his shoulders, the shepherd said,
"Wait, if I can guess what you do for a living, can I have it back?" The drummer
thought the chances of a correct guess were slim, so he agreed. The shepherd
said, "You're a drummer, aren't you?" The drummer replied, "Yes, how did you
know?" The shepherd replied, "Put my dog down ,and we'll talk about it!"
>You all have ALOT to learn.
Maybe so, son, maybe so. :)
Rip Rowan
hardest cymbals to mic properly, not only because it's loud, but because it
produces a lot in the 800-4KHz range. That's why the 57s are picking it up
so strongly.
When I record with my china cymbal, I set the cymbal outside the perimeter
of the overheads, way up high. You gotta REACH for it.
Are you recording in a small booth or with a low ceiling? I bet you're
getting a lot of reflections. Could be your room.
--
Rip Rowan
ProRec Editor
visit the ProRec WebZine @
http://www.prorec.com
Rip Rowan
> sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck.
Good thing nobody ever told that to Neil or Omar.
Harvey Gerst
<snipped>
>Except if that person happens to be producing your album, or is in
>control of your budget, or can fire your sorry ass...in which case doing
>what you're told is a good thing.
>
>There is a fuckin' god!!! I have enough buttheads and morons to deal
>with in the course of my day without having to deal with you...I'll bet
>you 4:1 that you've already been there...you just didn't understand it.
<more Fletcher at his best snipped>
>Dean- you ignorant slut...yeah all that matters is the final
>outcome...however, a china cymbal is one of those tones, much like a
>bagpipe or the pan flute, that has little or no use to the world. If
>you wanna use one great, if you wanna endorse the use of one, great...if
>you wanna call me an "idiot" for hating them, I'll cut you into bite
>size bits. Orchestral percussion is wonderful...find me a symphony with
>a china cymbal in it...find me a single piece that isn't full of atonal
>crap that has a china cymbal...find me a rock and roll song with a china
>cymbal hit that doesn't make me want to vomit...and I'll suck your dick
>in Macy's window...OK, unfair; I'll buy you dinner...sorry about you
>being dickless and all that, so the Monica motion is out of the question
>in your case.
Ahhh Fletcher,
Even though our styles are different, it's amazing how similar we think. This is
truly "vintage Fletcher" at it's best. I wish I had your flair.
Pay heed, group - we shall not see another like Fletcher in our lifetime, and
the world is a poorer place because of it.
Harvey Gerst
>> Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
>> sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck.
>
>Good thing nobody ever told that to Neil or Omar.
Rip,
Nobody had to tell them - they knew it already. They use the chinas to torture
the other band members.
Harvey Gerst
>To Colin: get that cymbal off-mic, out of the way. China is one of the
>hardest cymbals to mic properly, not only because it's loud, but because it
>produces a lot in the 800-4KHz range. That's why the 57s are picking it up
>so strongly.
I have noticed that an AKG C3000 into a Mackie into an ADAT reproduces a china
cymbal perfectly!! That's probably why I hate that particular combination of
components.
>When I record with my china cymbal, I set the cymbal outside the perimeter
>of the overheads, way up high. You gotta REACH for it.
Uh, didn't I say that in my first post on this?
>Are you recording in a small booth or with a low ceiling? I bet you're
>getting a lot of reflections. Could be your room.
Rip,
No matter how you slice it, to a non-drummer, a china sounds like a trashcan lid
- an expensive, nice-looking trashcan lid, but a trashcan lid nonetheless.
To drummers that don't own a china, our large studio china boy is irresistible -
just like our new 24" gong. The drummer will find some way to work both of them
into a song. ("Hey, let's use the gong to start the ballad"!! Okay, how bout the
waltz then?")
marty lester
wrote:
>> Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
>> sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck.
>
>Good thing nobody ever told that to Neil or Omar.
or bill bruford or terry bozzio...
marty.
________________________________________
che...@tequilamockingbird.com
Making the World a Noisier Place
Matt Fort
the OH mix.
NEVER a problem. Ever.
Matt Fortier
Eureka! Recording Studios
Fitchburg, MA
978 345 6946
Matt Fo...@AOL.com
Lyle Caldwell
First, most cymbals sound bad. To pick out the two crashes for the album
I'm working on now, I spent about 4 hours in the basement of the local drum
shop, playing EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN ONE of their crashes, setting each up on
a kit, listening to how they interact with each other, and what impact they
have in different playing styles. I then did the same with every pair of
high hats. Another 3 hours. (PS: I ended up with 2 really nice Zildian
Custom A crashes, 15" and 17" medium thins, and 12" Paiste signature hats,
but a live gig would destroy the cymbals).
Second, it's even harder to find a good China cymbal. Most are atrocious.
The bigger they are, the worse they sound. And interestingly, the bigger
they are, the more impressed most drumemrs are by them. I think this lies
at the root of Fletcher and Harvey's views... Anyway, I find that a small
Wuhan can sound very good, without overwhelming the rest of the kit the way
those 20" platinum ones can.
To the original poster: get those cymbals up, up, and away from the floor
toms. If the drummer wants the ride at about high hat level, have him move
his toms a little so they don't overlap so much. And get the china pretty
far away, so the drummer just brushes the edge of the cymbal, not smashing
dead in the center. Way too harsh.
And speaking of chinas and splash cymbals, both break a lot. If you have a
broken one of each, you're in luck. Put 'em both on the same stand, and
voila! Instant "fx" cymbal. Usually a good thing.
Lyle
Oh, BTW, vinyl boy, don't think that I'm gonna intervene on your behalf.
You made your bed, you can sleep alone.
Fletcher wrote in message <35CA18...@mercenary.com>...
>Colin Duffy wrote:
>>
>> i've been slowly buiding a small studio, while also
>> purchasing more components for our instruments....since last time we've
>> recorded, i've gotten a few more splash cymbals, mini-timbales, and a
>> china cymbal...to mic them all, i've got an audio technica a25 on the
>> kick, and sm-57's all around.....for overhead we just have some cheesy
>> samsons setup (just for temporary use), from there we go into a small 8
>> channel mixer, with a lexicon reflex, and then into a card D+. the only
>>
>> thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal. i have an sm-57 on
>> the snare, one between the pair of timbales(left side), one between the
>> toms(on top of kick), and one above the floor tom. the mic on the floor
>>
>> tom i just can seem to get right--the mic is located between the head of
>>
>> the tom, and the ride cymbal(right above it). it picks up both of those
>>
>> fine, but the second i go near the china cymbal, the signal goes thru
>> the roof, now i understand that the cymbal itself is quite louder than
>> the rest of the cymbals, but the overhead mic that is right over it
>> handles it fine. i have tried positioning the mic underneath of the
>> drum (on the floor), and aiming and moving the cymbal different ways,
>> but nothing seems to change the volume of it. i don't want it to be
>> such an upfront cymbal, it would just be nice to have that background
>> almost crowd cheering/garbage can lid sound to it.....any tips would be
>> greatly appreciated!!
>>
>> colin
>
>
>Colin- put it back in the cymbal bag and be done with it. China cymbals
>sound like shit, they have no use in the world...they suck. If you want
>a crowd cheering or a garbage can lid...record one of those, a china
>cymbal will lead to nothing but automation on drums in the final balance
>of the song(s)...
Vavvy2
As a budding Thereminist my empathy for the slings and arrows you are
enduring for weilding a torturous sonic device (though there are those out
there who would also include my bass playing in that category...). Someones
gotta do it. Anyways, I would think that the gentleman mentioning the midrange
- heavy characteristic of the China Cymbal is on the right track. It's sonic
signature is completely different from any other cymbal and its prominence is
probably caused by the acoustics of your tracking room, mic position and/or
mic choice. I'd try:
1) Move that Tom mic around the drum and see if there's a position that would
offer more rejection from the direction of the China
2) Try any other mics at your disposal - the 57's live to pick up midrange
which to my ears is 90% of the China's sound
3) Is moving the kit around an option? Even a few feet one way or the other (my
gut would be away from a wall if you happen to be near one) may completely
change reflections and clear up your problem.
Pardon me if I've overstated the obvious and good luck.
Larry Heinemann.
Vavvy2
in fact you did move things around so please excuse my redundancy on that
matter. Best of luck!
Larry Heinemann
hank alrich & lanis lebaron
> I record my china cymbal all the time on the studio and it's always
> balanced in the OH mix.
>
> NEVER a problem. Ever.
Good, Matt. Now, how about telling the guy how you do it?
Matt Fort
LOL!!!!
Well, I was the drummer and the engineer. So, I have a good sense of balance of
my kit.
It sounds like the drummer doesn't know how to play his kit within balance, OR
he had the wrong cymbal for the rest of his kit.. (Other drums and cymbals are
too soft, etc...)
Matt Fort
and every now and then, he hit the string on the pickup. So, every now and then
there would be this big "CLACK!" on the bass track. Nothing I could do.
Bottom line... BAD technique. The artist just dropped the slapping parts after
the bass player freaked out at me for mentioning it.
Harvey Gerst
>This also reminds me of a session I just did. The Bass player was "slapping"
>and every now and then, he hit the string on the pickup. So, every now and then
>there would be this big "CLACK!" on the bass track. Nothing I could do.
>
>Bottom line... BAD technique. The artist just dropped the slapping parts after
>the bass player freaked out at me for mentioning it.
Matt,
There IS something you can do to prevent the string from hitting the pickup's
pole pieces. Cover the pickups with white artist tape or masking tape - it'll
prevent the click completely.
Matt Fort
>
>There IS something you can do to prevent the string from hitting the pickup's
>pole pieces. Cover the pickups with white artist tape or masking tape -
>it'll
>prevent the click completely.
Really?!! No shit. I'll try it! Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
Fletcher
(snip)
>Second, it's even harder to find a good China cymbal. Most are
atrocious.
>The bigger they are, the worse they sound. And interestingly, the
bigger
>they are, the more impressed most drumemrs are by them. I think this
lies
>at the root of Fletcher and Harvey's views... Anyway, I find that a
small
>Wuhan can sound very good, without overwhelming the rest of the kit
the way
>those 20" platinum ones can.
>(snip happens)
>
>Lyle
Ok, Lyle has some very valid comments, and there actually are a few
drummers that I've worked with that have actually used china cymbals in
an interesting and musical manner...they, as others have pointed out,
were *excellent* drummers...not your average, run of the mill shnook in
the local Metallica like extravaganza.
Much like there are only a handful of drummers on the face of the earth
that should ever be granted their double bass drum licence...same goes
for China cymbals...some folks are good enough to use them, most should
be shot before they touch one.
My rule of thumb is that a drummer should prove that he (she/it...I
really detest the extra typing involved with political correctness) can
play with taste and finess prior to being allowed to add things to the
kit. I've found that when I start to work with a band the kit gets
stripped down to foot, snare, one rack, floor, one crash, a ride, pair
of hats. Once the drummer can use that musically in the context of the
project, without trying to impress with how many things he can hit (&
how quickly), but how he can influence the groove and reinforce the
statement/emotion of the performance, then we can add things...slowly,
one at a time.
Obviously there are players that don't need to be worked with in this
manner...but the greater majority do. FWIW, there are some fairly
"heavy" first call kind of guys that I've worked with that I've taken
away their China cymbals...they hit them way too much, too hard, and in
really fuckin' goofy places in the groove...which is the most common
problem with the instrument...funny thing being pro's on the level
they're on...they didn't have a problem with me excluding the cymbal
from their arsenal of tones. They seemed to understand the concept of
one person steering the boat while the others row...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
http://www.mercenary.co.uk
Dave Martin
Fletcher wrote in message <6qff6s$6...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
I've found that when I start to work with a band the kit gets
>stripped down to foot, snare, one rack, floor, one crash, a ride, pair
>of hats. Once the drummer can use that musically in the context of the
>project, without trying to impress with how many things he can hit (&
>how quickly), but how he can influence the groove and reinforce the
>statement/emotion of the performance, then we can add things...slowly,
>one at a time.
When I used to hire drummers to go on the road with my band, I'd do the same
thing - I'd let them play with their normal kit for two or three days to
kind of get a grip on WHAT we played, then I'd take away all the toys so
they had to learn HOW we played. (This goes along with my theory that a
drummer will notice something like a tom or a cymbal that he hasn't played
recently, then have to figure out some lick that takes him to that toy.) I
didnt need the aggravation. I'd also give him homework: I give him a bunch
of tapes that had guys like Larrie London, Gaylord Birch and Roger Hawkins
playing drums, and make him listen to what THEY did. Some got it, some
didn't...
Dave Martin
Digital Media Associates
Nashville, Tennessee
dave....@nashville.com
Bill
>
> ... (This goes along with my theory that a
> drummer will notice something like a tom or a cymbal that he hasn't played
> recently, then have to figure out some lick that takes him to that toy.)
<engaging tongue-in-cheek mode>
No, no, you don't understand... here's how it is, every so often, drums
and cymbals and stuff just plain wear out, and you've gotta replace
them, but you can always get a better deal at the store if you're buying
a full drum set instead of just one piece, so you've gotta make sure to
play every part of the kit equally, that way everything wears out at the
same time. I've heard that professional drummers have little
odometer-type guages on each drum and cymbal, so they can make sure
they're hitting everything the same number of times.
David
>...they didn't have a problem with me excluding the cymbal
>from their arsenal of tones. They seemed to understand the concept of
>one person steering the boat while the others row...
>--
>Fletcher
Or.... they're smart enough to realise it's not a smart place to try
and draw lines in the sand. Meaning, they have enough canoe trips
under their belts to realise fighting you on something so trivial
would be counter productive and they would be giving away credibility
if they did.
Or... maybe they're trying YOU out - they want to know if you're
together enough to pull the plug on something they KNOW doesn't work !
<g>
Machiavelli had some interesting ideas.....
D.P.
Fulltone
reach so he had to practically turn around to use it.
Two benefits from this: It was far away from the overheads and He used it less.
Michael Fuller / Fulltone Musical Products Inc. / http://www.fulltone.com
Chris Gieseke
> stripped down to foot, snare, one rack, floor, one crash, a ride, pair
> of hats. Once the drummer can use that musically in the context of the
> project, without trying to impress with how many things he can hit (&
> how quickly), but how he can influence the groove and reinforce the
> statement/emotion of the performance, then we can add things...slowly,
> one at a time.
>
> manner...but the greater majority do. FWIW, there are some fairly
> "heavy" first call kind of guys that I've worked with that I've taken
> away their China cymbals...they hit them way too much, too hard, and in
> really fuckin' goofy places in the groove...which is the most common
> problem with the instrument...funny thing being pro's on the level
> from their arsenal of tones. They seemed to understand the concept of
> one person steering the boat while the others row...
> --
> Fletcher
> http://www.mercenary.co.uk
Damn, I take it you don't like Metallica's use of China cymbals on their
Black album? I was hoping to win some of your famous BBQ with that
suggestion...That's actually the first album where I really noticed
chinas and not being a drummer (and at the time not having ever recorded
a drummer) it took me a long time to figure what the hell that "clang
clang" sound was. At first I thought it was a slap bass hit or
something. I actually recorded a drummer not too long ago with a
chinaboy and we actually had the problem of it not being loud enough in
the mix, so on some songs we went back and re-recorded just those hits
by itself and were able to eq it and sculpt the sound to exactly how we
wanted it to sound (much different then the actual sound really).
Overall alot of fun and the hits were well placed in areas to accent
certain parts. Definatly used sparingly.
But when drummers go apeshit with their new China cymbal it can get very
annoying. But I personally like them alot when they are played well in
the right song context( heavy metal for example) and are of decent
quality.
Chris G.
A T
underneath.
_ _
\ @ /
( )
( )
_\/ \/_
GrapeApe
> manner...but the greater majority do. FWIW, there are some fairly
> "heavy" first call kind of guys that I've worked with that I've taken
> away their China cymbals...they hit them way too much, too hard, and in
> really fuckin' goofy places in the groove...which is the most common
> problem with the instrument...funny thing being pro's on the level
> they're on...they didn't have a problem with me excluding the cymbal
> from their arsenal of tones. They seemed to understand the concept of
> one person steering the boat while the others row...
We get into the entire "people engineering" field here. I can imagine a 'pro'
would have no problem whatsoever stripping his/her arsenal, but how do you
wean less professional drummers from their splashy toys? I think we have all
seen drummers that could benefit from a brass reduction.
PeriscopeR
the overheads in his or her headphone mix while tracking. sometimes the
overheads aren't loud enough and the drummer is just trying to hear a little
*deafinition*.
evan
p.s. and don't compress the drums in the headphone mix ever, or else the
dynamic range will be out of whack.
Walter Ego
Fulltone wrote in message
<199808081424...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
You aren't supposed to interfere with the music .... in moving the drummers
stuff around .... thats what you are doing .... tut tut tut ....
Bill
>
> Fulltone wrote in message
> <199808081424...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >While recording my last CD, I placed the drummer's China Cymbal far out of
> his
> >reach so he had to practically turn around to use it.
>
> stuff around .... thats what you are doing .... tut tut tut ....
Well, he did say "while recording MY last CD...". If he's the one
paying the bills, or if he's been delegated creative control over the
project, he has every right to interfere with the music. That is, in
fact, his job.
A lot of the disagreement in this thread, as I see it, is because people
are offering opinions from very different perspectives. One perspective
is that of the producer or engineer/producer who's expected to exert a
lot of creative control, even to the extent of telling the musicians
what to play. Another perspective is that of the engineer whose job is
simply to get the sound on tape with the best quality the equipment is
capable of delivering, and who defers to the producer on all creative
matters.
Harvey Gerst
>A lot of the disagreement in this thread, as I see it, is because people
>are offering opinions from very different perspectives. One perspective
>is that of the producer or engineer/producer who's expected to exert a
>lot of creative control, even to the extent of telling the musicians
>what to play.
Exactly. Case in point; the track I submitted for the compilation. The fiddle
player also sang backup and did a lot of the harmony arranging. This was for her
father's album.
After they put down the harmonies, I wasn't satisfied with the 3rd line in the
last two verses, so I asked all the backup singers to go back in and sing a
descending unison harmony part to strengthen that line. She didn't feel it
needed it, and basically refused to do it. After a lengthy discussion, they went
back in and did it (very reluctantly, and without the slightest trace of
enthusiasm).
She's in here again, recording with her own band. My son is doing the tracking
and the band is self-producing their album. I won't go near them; I wish them
well, but I won't lift a finger to help them, either with suggestions, or with
any of my old contacts. About all I've done so far is point out to her father
(who manages the group) that the drummer lost the groove on one song I heard.
Is that being petty and vindictive? You bet!!! It's the one bright spot in being
old (that, and having a good bowel movement).
Mike Rivers
> Damn, I take it you don't like Metallica's use of China cymbals on their
> Black album? I was hoping to win some of your famous BBQ with that
> suggestion...That's actually the first album where I really noticed
> chinas and not being a drummer (and at the time not having ever recorded
> a drummer) it took me a long time to figure what the hell that "clang
> clang" sound was.
I haven't heard the album, and probably won't, but just making a wild
ass-u-mption based on the way these things are usually done, if it's
tasteful and sounds good, I'll bet it was an overdub. Chances are the
mic was in another county, or perhaps even across the state line, from
the cymbal.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
PeriscopeR
evan
Rip Rowan
>
> No matter how you slice it, to a non-drummer, a china sounds like a trashcan lid
> - an expensive, nice-looking trashcan lid, but a trashcan lid nonetheless.
What's so awful about a trashcan lid? There are in fact drummers with trashcan lids
in their kit.
A snare drum is, likewise, a horrible sounding instrument, sort of a rattly
cardboard box. Play a snare drum like a hi-hat and it too will sound horrible.
It's all about playing the instrument correctly. Played well, a crash is closer to
a snare than a cymbal.
Chinas can be used nicely on a lot of parts. Non-drummers probably don't even know
it's a china unless it's being played poorly. When played well it meshes right into
the rhythm. I like to use them on the upbeats of a ride groove to add energy. Bad
drummers will use them like crashes. Booo. And no, you don't hit them hard.
> To drummers that don't own a china, our large studio china boy is irresistible -
> just like our new 24" gong. The drummer will find some way to work both of them
> into a song. ("Hey, let's use the gong to start the ballad"!! Okay, how bout the
> waltz then?")
That's a good point. You're describing a bad drummer, he's more about technique and
toys than feel. Like those drummers with lots of toms. What a laugh. Only a
small handful of drummers are talented enough and play in bands whose type of music
justify that kind of monsterkit.
My favorite drummer is Ringo. Two toms, three cymbals. Lasted him his whole life -
I think he still plays the same cymbals he started with. Great in' feel.
My philosophy is that a good drummer will be able to make more music with less
drums. That being said, nothing sounds like a china - so if you need it, use it.
Sounds like the original poster had a drummer that didn't know how to use the drum.
--
Rip Rowan
ProRec Editor
visit the ProRec WebZine @
http://www.prorec.com
Rip Rowan
> - heavy characteristic of the China Cymbal is on the right track.
Larry,
You're the first person in the world to ever call me a gentleman. You $10 is in
the mail.
Rip Rowan
> > correctly.
>
> Yeah, so is Heroin...it's just soooooo difficult to use it correctly.
> I've cured many a hangover with Heroin...let's see you do that book boy.
So, what do you use to cure the bends?
I like Draino.
Eric Blackmer
microphones can't reproduce the complexity.
Berst regards,
Eric Blackmer
http://www.earthwks.com
vi...@my-dejanews.com
Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
> vi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
>
> > I play drums, and i can tell you this guy is an idiot. i am not just some
> > thrasher either, i have studied music and i play ochestral percussion as
well
> > as drums used in rock music.
>
> Gee- you should also study punctuation...but that's another story. I'm
> a lot of things...an idiot isn't on the list.
>
> A china cymbal can be really awesome if used
> > correctly.
>
> Yeah, so is Heroin...it's just soooooo difficult to use it correctly.
> I've cured many a hangover with Heroin...let's see you do that book boy.
>
> > to NEVER listen to anyone that tells you NOT to use something or NOT to
> > record something.
>
> Except if that person happens to be producing your album, or is in
> control of your budget, or can fire your sorry ass...in which case doing
> what you're told is a good thing.
>
> Record anything you want any way you want and that is how
> > you will get the most interesting and best sounding recordings. I can tell
> > you right now i will never go to this guys website. www.mercenary.com
>
> There is a fuckin' god!!! I have enough buttheads and morons to deal
> with in the course of my day without having to deal with you...I'll bet
> you 4:1 that you've already been there...you just didn't understand it.
>
> As far
> > as recording the cybal goes, i would move it if at all possible.
>
> Yeah, to the Mid-west...or at least out of reach...
>
> Try to find
> > a position that you can still get to it when you play but it is not sitting
> > on top of the ride or other mics. put it up as high as you can too.
>
> Yep...you are a fucking genius...I stand corrected. So now that we're
> moving the players instruments to fit the mics, I guess we can work
> together...like I'll set up some mics here in MA...you bring your shit
> over and put them near (or at least where you think the instruments
> should be) the microphones...*not*.
>
> Then i
> > would take foam or anything you can find to absorb the sound and attach
them
> > to cardboard and attach this to the stand with tape underneath the cymbal.
>
> Just curious...how did you live this long? What's your secret to
> longevity? (I mean other than gun control laws?).
>
> > Just try to make like un umbrella that goes over anything thats under the
> > cymbal. That way some of the sound will be blocked from the mics that are
> > under the cymbal on other drums. For microphone placement, i would put the
> > mic as far away from the cymbal as you can and move it closer until you get
> > the signal you want. Dont mic it close.
>
> No really, how did you manage to not get shot in the head? I would
> have. Most of the folks I hang with would have...other than being an
> orchestral china cymbal player, and outrunning bullets, what else do you
> do?
>
> Remember that the final recording is
> > all that matters, so anything you use along the way to get the sound is
fine,
> > be creative and you will get the sounds you want. Good luck!
> >
> > Dean
>
> Dean- you ignorant slut...yeah all that matters is the final
> outcome...however, a china cymbal is one of those tones, much like a
> bagpipe or the pan flute, that has little or no use to the world. If
> you wanna use one great, if you wanna endorse the use of one, great...if
> you wanna call me an "idiot" for hating them, I'll cut you into bite
> size bits. Orchestral percussion is wonderful...find me a symphony with
> a china cymbal in it...find me a single piece that isn't full of atonal
> crap that has a china cymbal...find me a rock and roll song with a china
> cymbal hit that doesn't make me want to vomit...and I'll suck your dick
> in Macy's window...OK, unfair; I'll buy you dinner...sorry about you
> being dickless and all that, so the Monica motion is out of the question
> in your case.
>
> --
> Fletcher
> Mercenary Audio
> http://www.mercenary.com
>
All i have to say to this is I would never want to work with you, and i cant
see how anyone else would if this is how you are in person. You might know
everything in the world about the technologie of recording music. But you
have alot to learn about the art in it. Please dont reply to this i am not
interested in what you have to say.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Harvey Gerst
>> Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
>> > vi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> > I play drums, and i can tell you this guy is an idiot. i am not just some
>> > thrasher either, i have studied music and i play ochestral percussion as
>> > well as drums used in rock music.
>> > Record anything you want any way you want and that is how
>> > you will get the most interesting and best sounding recordings. I can tell
>> > you right now i will never go to this guys website. www.mercenary.com
>> There is a fuckin' god!!! I have enough buttheads and morons to deal
>> with in the course of my day without having to deal with you...I'll bet
>> you 4:1 that you've already been there...you just didn't understand it.
>All i have to say to this is I would never want to work with you, and i cant
>see how anyone else would if this is how you are in person. You might know
>everything in the world about the technologie of recording music. But you
>have alot to learn about the art in it. Please dont reply to this i am not
>interested in what you have to say.
When someone is wrong, Fletcher (or one of us) is gonna say something about it.
When you say something as stupid as "Record anything you want any way you want
and that is how you will get the most interesting and best sounding recordings",
somebody here is gonna tell you to take your head out of your ass and look
around at the real world. Fletcher happens to be a little more articulate and
prone to more colorful language than some of us are. But, as usual, he's right.
We tried to be nice to you, we tried to be funny, we tried all the politically
correct sensitivity shit, but you still don't get it. When you've been sitting
in an engineer's chair for a long time, there are a few things you come to hate:
Chinaboy cymbals
Splash cymbals
Badly tuned drums
Ovation guitars
Bagpipes
Accordians
Drummers who don't have a clue.
Singers that can't.
Lead guitar players who think they'll be inspired during a session to play the
right notes.
Badly intonated guitars.
Most fretless bass players.
Feeling stupid when you fuck with a no signal path for 15 minutes, and then
discover you haven't turned on the phantom power to the mic.
Recording on an "empty" track, only to discover...
Producers (who are friends of the band) who ask "What do YOU think?" after every
take.
Producers (who work for the record company) who ask "What do YOU think?" after
every take.
All record company "Accounts Payable" departments.
Any other engineer whose latest album makes you cry.
Vinyl, you got a long way to go in this business - don't make judgements about
people too quickly.
GuySonic
writes:
>Subject: Re: help! miking a china cymbal
>From: Eric Blackmer <eart...@jlc.net>
>Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:14:29 +0000
I've on occasion wondered how with using two matched TC30K mics, (instead of
the usual DSM models) mounted on either side of a Sonic Studios DSM-GUY or
Lite-GUY 'HRTF' generating omni baffles, would sound for recording 3-D ambient
stereo.
I'd suppose a special mounting arrangement for holding the Earthworks in
position would be fairly simple to arrange on a 'U-shaped' T-bar of some kind.
They look a little to heavy for the usual headband style mounts I use with the
DSM mics.
Eric, Maybe look at the DSM-GUY at URL:
http://www.sonicstudios.com/guypage.htm
at let me know what comes to you mind for a simple Earthworks mic body mounting
arrangement. The mic reception area should be positioned about the forward
'temple' area of the GUY baffle.
Best Regards in Sound & Music, Leonard Lombardo
Sonic Studios(tm) "Making Audio History With DSM(tm) Microphones"
Ph.541-459-8839 USA Free:1-888-875-4976 WEB: www.sonicstudios.com
"A bit of knowledge coupled to a great deal of wisdom serves us best"
Chris Gieseke
did at one point have a drum kit) I definatly prefer the sound of a
China when it is used more as a crash cymbal just to accent certain
parts in a song. I also prefer for it to really stick out. However for
live use, it may or may not work well depending on the quality of the
china cymbal. But I think that in recording the China sounds best when
it is overdubbed on its own track. That way you can eq and really
scuplt it into something that sounds totally different and more like an
effect. The Metallica song, "Wherever I May Roam", on their black album
has what sounds to me like heavily processed china cymbal hits. It
almost sounds like a slap-bass hit with a lot of reverb, but I think it
really adds to the song.
When using a DAW for overdubbing china hits you also have the ability
to place those hits in different parts of the song until you and the
drummer or producer agree that it sounds very tasteful on that
particular song. If it doesnt work with the song or you cant get it to
sound right then you just delete that track and just...I dont
know...stick a rain-stick track in there! Yeeeeaaaah!!!
Chris G.
Colin Duffy
arguments about things here--i guess i didn't make it clear in the original
post, but i'm the one playing the drums.....i do really like the sound of
the china cymbal when miked right--every Dream Theater, and Fates Warning
album, there is a lot of china stuff goin on there, sounds great, used as a
ride, and crash cymbal--altho i do know my way around the kit quite well
now, it's kinda tough to hit the china precise when i'm doin 16th's on the
kick, snare on the 2's and 4's, and going back and forth in an 8th note
pattern from the ride to the china--have to hit the ride a little harder but
the china nice and light--but i'll have to learn. i think it's great that u
guys will only let a drummer have a few pieces to start with--but ur also
takin away their fun--since i've added things to my kit, i'm playing better
then ever before, more options give me more things to do. well i hope i
can figure it out...
Colin
Colin Duffy wrote:
> i've been slowly buiding a small studio, while also
> purchasing more components for our instruments....since last time we've
> recorded, i've gotten a few more splash cymbals, mini-timbales, and a
> china cymbal...to mic them all, i've got an audio technica a25 on the
> kick, and sm-57's all around.....for overhead we just have some cheesy
> samsons setup (just for temporary use), from there we go into a small 8
> channel mixer, with a lexicon reflex, and then into a card D+. the only
>
> thing i'm havin problems with is the china cymbal. i have an sm-57 on
> the snare, one between the pair of timbales(left side), one between the
> toms(on top of kick), and one above the floor tom. the mic on the floor
>
> tom i just can seem to get right--the mic is located between the head of
>
> the tom, and the ride cymbal(right above it). it picks up both of those
>
> fine, but the second i go near the china cymbal, the signal goes thru
> the roof, now i understand that the cymbal itself is quite louder than
> the rest of the cymbals, but the overhead mic that is right over it
> handles it fine. i have tried positioning the mic underneath of the
> drum (on the floor), and aiming and moving the cymbal different ways,
> but nothing seems to change the volume of it. i don't want it to be
> such an upfront cymbal, it would just be nice to have that background
> almost crowd cheering/garbage can lid sound to it.....any tips would be
> greatly appreciated!!
>
> colin
Marvin Humphrey
Wow. Weird. Guysonic, I'm flabbergasted. Usually you're as relentless
as Mr. Eric Blackmer in the promotion of your product as a panacea for
every recording situation. ["Miking a chinaboy/woodwind quintet/porn
scene/electric autoharp orchestra/whoopee cushion? Try an Earthworks
TC30K! Most microphones can't reproduce the complexity."]
But today, you're interested in a solution other than one you sell?
(well sort of.)
-- Marvin Humphrey
Remove SPAMMAJAMMA from email for reply
Pete Larson
if somebody wants it. It's OK, he still owes me a hundred bucks. It
sounds great, just don't hit it where I can hear it.
Pete Larson
Matt Fort
>if somebody wants it. It's OK, he still owes me a hundred bucks. It
>sounds great, just don't hit it where I can hear it.
What kind? I'll take it!
Matt Fortier
Eureka! Recording Studios
Fitchburg, MA
978 345 6946
Matt Fo...@AOL.com
Fletcher
And if he doesn't have a judgement authorizing him to sell you the
cymbal, you may be opening a can of worms you don't want opened...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
http://www.mercenary.co.uk
Ulysses
> Several years ago I took my drummer's china cymbal away. Still got it
> if somebody wants it. It's OK, he still owes me a hundred bucks. It
> sounds great, just don't hit it where I can hear it.
>
> Pete Larson
I could use it to make a rather Fletcheresque sculpture where it would be
guaranteed to never again make its intended sound.
Ulysses
The Old Flight Center
Minneapolis, MN
SRF7
being
>Harvey Gerst
>Indian Trail Recording Studio
>http://www.ITRstudio.com/
You forgot my favorite: loose shoes
and Fletcher's: Moron Flambe
Scott R. Foster | The mother ship's the one - Captain Beefheart
SRF7
>Pete Larson
And that's how it got the name China...
SRF7
>cymbal, you may be opening a can of worms >you don't want opened...
--
>Fletcher
>Mercenary Audio
>http://www.mercenary.co.uk
Jeez Fletcher... you were gonna shoot the mo'fo in your first post in this
thread... and now we're worried about lien releases on cymbals?
I know... just bust a cap in his ass and take all the cymbals...
Refreshing tirade in the first post by the way.. laughed so hard I damn near
pissed my pants.
Keep up the good work