Why do 45's always sound distorted?
muzician21
"overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any vinyl
before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the Disc
Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is an
SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition. While
not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing the
disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
What's the story with 45's?
gjsmo
I've always thought they just sounded "harsh" - like some part of the
recording chain was putting in some horrible-sounding EQ. Or maybe
it's the cutting heads they used.
Of course, I don't this the RIAA EQ standard existed yet. You may not
have the right eq applied if your sound system applies the standard
RIAA curve.
Then again, I have a LP-size (12" I think) recorded at 45RPM - it's
organ music, sounds great. I've always thought that this would be
great if it were adopted, but it's a bit late now...
Just my thoughts,
Mike Rivers
> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
> Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any vinyl
> before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the Disc
> Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
> Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge.
> What's the story with 45's?
They're mastered for maximum juke box volume, and they're
often as not pressed on ground up vinyl statuettes of Elvis
mixed with asphalt driveway scrapings.
--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
Scott Dorsey
So, these 45s you have... are they actually vinyl, or are they the normal
styrene pressings?
The styrene sounds okay when it's new and clean, but one or two plays with
a worn stylus and it's horrible.
A fineline stylus can help a lot playing back worn styrene.
Note that a lot of 45s were cut incredibly hot in order to make them loud
on jukeboxes. Sometimes there are playback linearity issues, sometimes
there were record linearity issues. A 50x microscope will tell you which.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
muzician21
> Note that a lot of 45s were cut incredibly hot in order to make them loud
> on jukeboxes.
Yes, that's the other thing I noticed, it's a lot louder at the same
volume knob setting on the amp.
muzician21
> On Jun 23, 4:35 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> > Note that a lot of 45s were cut incredibly hot in order to make them loud
> > on jukeboxes.
>
> Yes, that's the other thing I noticed, it's a lot louder
...a lot louder in comparison to LP's is the rest of that thought if
it wasn't obvious.
Carey Carlan
> On 6/23/2011 12:59 PM, muzician21 wrote:
>> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
>> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
>
>> Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any vinyl
>> before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the Disc
>> Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
>
>> Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge.
>
>> What's the story with 45's?
>
> They're mastered for maximum juke box volume, and they're
> often as not pressed on ground up vinyl statuettes of Elvis
> mixed with asphalt driveway scrapings.
Lastly, is it really a "new" 45? A record in a jukebox gathers no
fingerprints and no scratches, except in the grooves where it is ground to
dust.
PStamler
> Mike Rivers <mriv...@d-and-d.com> wrote innews:iu05m0$ve5$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> > On 6/23/2011 12:59 PM, muzician21 wrote:
> >> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
> >> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
>
> >> Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any vinyl
> >> before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the Disc
> >> Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
>
> >> Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge.
>
> >> What's the story with 45's?
>
> > They're mastered for maximum juke box volume, and they're
> > often as not pressed on ground up vinyl statuettes of Elvis
> > mixed with asphalt driveway scrapings.
That's your problem; the cartridge can't track the incredibly
overmodulated groove. Particularly if it's worn, and it usually is.
Peace,
Paul
muzician21
> Lastly, is it really a "new" 45? A record in a jukebox gathers no
> fingerprints and no scratches, except in the grooves where it is ground to
> dust.
While I can't say for sure, I'd be surprised if it was ever in a
jukebox. It's an obscure title by an artist who never had any radio
hits.
Olafur Gunnlaugsson
> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
singles usually not pressed on virgin vinyl unless they are coloured
vinyl, in some countries (USA etc.) singles were cut at a considerably
higher modulation rate than LP's, in Jamiaca they were way above LP's
and so high that only moving coil cutterheads could handle them
not a problem for the crystal/ceramic pickups in jukeboxes and budget
home hi-fi sets nor for the MC pickups used by broadcasters but MM
pickups (and some MI designs as well) like used in mid-end hi-fi have a
tendency to distort at high modulation levels
the high modulation rate and a tendency to maximise the volume of
singles also creates a mild compression effect not unlike that of tape
(but coarser) but if overdone simply becomes distortion
Olafur Gunnlaugsson
> �ann 23/06/2011 17:59, skrifa�i muzician21:
>> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
>> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
>
> singles usually not pressed on virgin vinyl unless they are coloured
> vinyl, in some countries (USA etc.) singles were cut at a considerably
> higher modulation rate than LP's, in Jamiaca they were way above LP's
> and so high that only moving coil cutterheads could handle them
>
> not a problem for the crystal/ceramic pickups in jukeboxes and budget
> home hi-fi sets nor for the MC pickups used by broadcasters but MM
> pickups (and some MI designs as well) like used in mid-end hi-fi have a
> tendency to distort at high modulation levels
PS. the quality of the stylus also helps/hinders with high modulation
levels, elliptical and line contact's are noticeably better than spericals
Scott Dorsey
>�ann 23/06/2011 17:59, skrifa�i muzician21:
>> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
>> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
>
>singles usually not pressed on virgin vinyl unless they are coloured
>vinyl, in some countries (USA etc.) singles were cut at a considerably
>higher modulation rate than LP's, in Jamiaca they were way above LP's
>and so high that only moving coil cutterheads could handle them
Very few of them were pressed on vinyl at all.
The amount of regrind, though, really doesn't affect distortion substantially
on vinyl pressings. It will affect noise floor a lot (and surprisingly,
adding maybe 10% regrind in there gives you a pressing that is quieter than
'virgin vinyl.'
The higher modulation rate is 90% of the problem.
>not a problem for the crystal/ceramic pickups in jukeboxes and budget
>home hi-fi sets nor for the MC pickups used by broadcasters but MM
>pickups (and some MI designs as well) like used in mid-end hi-fi have a
>tendency to distort at high modulation levels
And that distortion is a side effect of mistracking which tends to cause
permanent groove damage. On styrenes it only takes one play to wreck a
record.
>the high modulation rate and a tendency to maximise the volume of
>singles also creates a mild compression effect not unlike that of tape
>(but coarser) but if overdone simply becomes distortion
Sure, but it's loud on the jukebox.
muzician21
> styrene pressings?
No idea. I just generically refer to 45's and LP's as "vinyl". Not
versed on the specifics and how one would determine this.
Scott Dorsey
They look and feel completely different. The styrene is much harder
and makes a different sound when you tap on it with your finger.
Pick up an old 45 and a modern LP and you'll see they are made of very
different material.
There were 7" vinyl pressings in the seventies and eighties but they
were pretty much only cost-effective for small runs. Today I don't
think any of the styrene injection-molding machines still exist, so any
7" discs you see being made today are going to be vinyl.
The styrene injection molding process was faster and cheaper than the
vinyl pressing process for large runs. However, it results in discs
that wear very differently.
geoff
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:iu75d4$hjv$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> Pick up an old 45 and a modern LP and you'll see they are made of very
> different material.
And wrt tracking,the velocities and acceleration needs to be more for 45s.
The rock on the stick has to wiggle quicker. Electrons have much less mass,
which is why CDs can be better.
geoff
malachi
"Mike Rivers" <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:iu05m0$ve5$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> They're mastered for maximum juke box volume, and they're often as not
> pressed on ground up vinyl statuettes of Elvis mixed with asphalt driveway
> scrapings.
>
> --
I KNEW it!
malachi
P.S. I just dug through my old stuff at my folks' house and found my old 45
of "Popcorn" by Hot Butter.
I too noticed how fuzzy and overcompressed it sounded.
Good thing here in the 21st century we now know not to overcompress/limit
our music.
Trevor
"geoff" <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9OidnRhslPXhpJrT...@giganews.com...
> And wrt tracking,the velocities and acceleration needs to be more for 45s.
> The rock on the stick has to wiggle quicker. Electrons have much less
> mass, which is why CDs can be better.
Surely that would be photons not electrons, IF it were not for the fact that
the laser head still has to follow the disc pits and maintain focus as well.
Of course the servo's and error correction generally allow it to do that
quite well, but when the mechanics are bad, the disc is even more unplayable
than any vinyl/turntable combination. With vinyl you still get some sound,
with a faulty CD player you often get a "disc error" displayed on the front
panel and no sound at all.
Trevor.
Mike Rivers
> Good thing here in the 21st century we now know not to overcompress/limit
> our music.
But knowing it and not doing it anyway are two different
things.
Scott Dorsey
Not really. The linear velocity on a 7" 45 isn't much different than for a
12" 33.
William Sommerwerck
> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>>"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:iu75d4$hjv$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>>> Pick up an old 45 and a modern LP and you'll see they
>>> are made of very different material.
>> And wrt tracking,the velocities and acceleration needs to be more
>> for 45s. The rock on the stick has to wiggle quicker. Electrons
>> have much less mass, which is why CDs can be better.
> Not really. The linear velocity on a 7" 45 isn't much different than
> for a 12" 33.
OUCH, Scott. Would you care to retract that? (And I'm not talking about the
Zenith Micro-Touch 2G stylus.)
The velocity he's referring to is the modulation velocity, not the linear
velocity of the groove.
Scott Dorsey
>"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>>>"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>>news:iu75d4$hjv$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
>>>> Pick up an old 45 and a modern LP and you'll see they
>>>> are made of very different material.
>
>>> And wrt tracking,the velocities and acceleration needs to be more
>>> for 45s. The rock on the stick has to wiggle quicker. Electrons
>>> have much less mass, which is why CDs can be better.
>
>> Not really. The linear velocity on a 7" 45 isn't much different than
>> for a 12" 33.
>
>OUCH, Scott. Would you care to retract that? (And I'm not talking about the
>Zenith Micro-Touch 2G stylus.)
Let's do the numbers and see what the linear velocity of the stylus actually
works out to. Diameter X pi X rotation rate:
Outer Groove:
11.5 inches at 33 rpm = 1192 inches/min
6.75 inches at 45 rpm = 954 inches/min
Inner Groove:
6 inches at 33 rpm = 622 inches/min
5 inches at 45 rpm = 706 inches/min
So, the LP is a little better at the beginning, but gets worse at the end
if you really try and push toward the label.
As always, the farther from the label you can get the last track, the higher
the linear velocity you can get on that track.
>The velocity he's referring to is the modulation velocity, not the linear
>velocity of the groove.
The modulation velocity is a function of the modulation level and the linear
velocity of the groove.
Because the linear velocity of the groove is so much lower on the inner track,
we have to cut the inner track more quietly so as not to exceed the maximum
linear velocity of the cutting and playback styli. This is a pain in the
neck for symphonic works where the last bit is the loudest.
William Sommerwerck
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Not really. The linear velocity on a 7" 45 isn't much different than
>>> for a 12" 33.
>> OUCH, Scott. Would you care to retract that? (And I'm not talking
>> about the Zenith Micro-Touch 2G stylus.)
> Let's do the numbers and see what the linear velocity of the stylus
actually
> works out to. Diameter X pi X rotation rate:
> Outer Groove:
> 11.5 inches at 33 rpm = 1192 inches/min
> 6.75 inches at 45 rpm = 954 inches/min
> Inner Groove:
> 6 inches at 33 rpm = 622 inches/min
> 5 inches at 45 rpm = 706 inches/min
> So, the LP is a little better at the beginning, but gets worse at the end
> if you really try and push toward the label.
> As always, the farther from the label you can get the last track, the
higher
> the linear velocity you can get on that track.
>> The velocity he's referring to is the modulation velocity, not the linear
>> velocity of the groove.
> The modulation velocity is a function of the modulation level and the
linear
> velocity of the groove.
Nope. Actually, it's determined by the amplitude of the groove displacement
and modulation frequency. Other than friction between the tip and groove,
the stylus doesn't "know" the record is turning. All it "sees" is a
displacement. The amplitude of that displacement, and its frequency,
determine the output of a velocity pickup. (Right?) If this were not so, the
cutting amplitude would have to be continually increased as the head moved
toward the center of the disk. Adn it isn't.
To put it a different way... The output of such a pickup is specified for a
particular "velocity" -- and this velocity has nothing to do with how fast
the record turns. Modulation amplitude (distance) multiplied by frequency
(1/time) eauals distance/time -- velocity.
Specific example... Many moving-flux pickups are spec'd at 1mV per cm/s. If
the RMS groove modulation of a 100Hz signal were 0.1 mm, then the pickup's
output would be 1mV. This relationship has nothing to do with how fast the
record is turning, but how fast the stylus is moving with respect to the
pickup body. (Or more accurately, how fast the magnet is moving with respect
to the coils.)
> Because the linear velocity of the groove is so much lower on the inner
track,
> we have to cut the inner track more quietly so as not to exceed the
maximum
> linear velocity of the cutting and playback styli. This is a pain in the
> neck for symphonic works where the last bit is the loudest.
Actually, this is a wavelength-related phenomenon, not a "velocity"-related
one.
Scott Dorsey
>> The modulation velocity is a function of the modulation level and the
>linear
>> velocity of the groove.
>
>Nope. Actually, it's determined by the amplitude of the groove displacement
>and modulation frequency. Other than friction between the tip and groove,
>the stylus doesn't "know" the record is turning. All it "sees" is a
>displacement. The amplitude of that displacement, and its frequency,
>determine the output of a velocity pickup. (Right?) If this were not so, the
>cutting amplitude would have to be continually increased as the head moved
>toward the center of the disk. Adn it isn't.
You're correct, but....
The maximum modulation velocity you can achieve is limited by the linear
velocity of the groove and by the frequency of the signal. If you put too
much high end in with a low linear velocity, you get distortion due to
mistracking.
>To put it a different way... The output of such a pickup is specified for a
>particular "velocity" -- and this velocity has nothing to do with how fast
>the record turns. Modulation amplitude (distance) multiplied by frequency
>(1/time) eauals distance/time -- velocity.
This is true. However, the maximum level that you can put on the disc is
strongly related to the linear velocity of the disc. The actual ability
of the stylus to track the groove becomes far poorer when the width of a
wave is physically much smaller.
>> Because the linear velocity of the groove is so much lower on the inner
>track,
>> we have to cut the inner track more quietly so as not to exceed the
>maximum
>> linear velocity of the cutting and playback styli. This is a pain in the
>> neck for symphonic works where the last bit is the loudest.
>
>Actually, this is a wavelength-related phenomenon, not a "velocity"-related
>one.
It's the physical dimension of the wave on the disc.
Ron Capik
I believe slew rate needs to be part of this discussion.
Later...
Ron Capik
--
Olafur Gunnlaugsson
> Olafur Gunnlaugsson<oligun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Şann 23/06/2011 17:59, skrifaği muzician21:
>>> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always sounded
>>> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an LP.
>>
>> singles usually not pressed on virgin vinyl unless they are coloured
>> vinyl, in some countries (USA etc.) singles were cut at a considerably
>> higher modulation rate than LP's, in Jamiaca they were way above LP's
>> and so high that only moving coil cutterheads could handle them
>
> Very few of them were pressed on vinyl at all.
In Europe at the least in the countries were I had records pressed the
same vinyl was used for 7 and 12", never bought the service in the
Americas so cannot possibly comment.
I countries were LP's and EP's (12" singles) dominated and 7" singles
were just a small part of a plants output the singles were as often as
not made out of nothing but reclaimed vinyl, you could sometimes see
fibres sticking out of the material where it had not melted properly.
That was the reason I always paid a few extra pounds for a coloured
vinyl, only way to guarantee a virgin vinyl for a pressing
Bill Graham
Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will play the
old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It seems to me that
modern technology could manage this.....
John Williamson
I thought that it had been done, but the disadvantages outweighed the
advantages?
It played back the microscopic grains of dust that a normal stylus
ignores or wipes away. The laser spot is also probably going to be
bigger than the contact area of a stylus, so bandwidth and tracking
distortion would be a problem.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
Charles Tomaras
"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l4Gdne1j4amRsJTT...@giganews.com...
>
> Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will play
> the old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It seems to me
> that modern technology could manage this.....
Trevor
"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:96t8r5...@mid.individual.net...
>> Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will play
>> the old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It seems to me
>> that modern technology could manage this.....
>
> I thought that it had been done, but the disadvantages outweighed the
> advantages?
Right it was done a LONG time ago. Quality improvements did not match the
price however, and you only ever need to play a disc once these days to
record it, so wear is no longer an issue.
> It played back the microscopic grains of dust that a normal stylus ignores
> or wipes away. The laser spot is also probably going to be bigger than the
> contact area of a stylus, so bandwidth and tracking distortion would be a
> problem.
I don't think that would be a problem for current technology lasers. The
ones used in blu-ray players are pretty fine focus (and cheap), but you can
go even smaller if it were actually necessary.
Trevor.
Bill Graham
Nice, but a bit pricy....
http://www.elpj.com/purchase/index.html
Charles Tomaras
No need to buy the expensive model...you can get by just fine with the $8000
unit! :)
Trevor
"Charles Tomaras" <tom...@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:0VeOp.47513$8G4....@newsfe17.iad...
>>> http://www.elpj.com/
>>
>> Nice, but a bit pricy....
>> http://www.elpj.com/purchase/index.html
>
> No need to buy the expensive model...you can get by just fine with the
> $8000 unit! :)
Right, $8,000 is not expensive for playing crappy old vinyl, "High end sound
quality NOT included"!
(specs are no better than standard turntables at < 1/10th the price)
And don't forget to add shipping cost, plus the cost of a proper disc
cleaning machine. Plus a 4 month wait!
And can you tell my why it's phono level out, and why they aren't sure
whether it's actually $300 or $500 extra for line level out? :-)
Given the processing needed, I can't see why it would ever be phono level at
all.
Trevor.
Scott Dorsey
>
>Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will play the
>old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It seems to me that
>modern technology could manage this.....
Finial (and successors) have made such a thing for twenty years. It has
advantages and disadvantages; it can track very badly worn grooves but it
also has serious trouble dealing with dust and dirt that a stylus would knock
right away. Still, the main linearity issues these days are in the cutting
side.
Charles Tomaras
"Trevor" <tre...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4e099e56$0$13390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Pretty sure both models sound better if you can set them up in a vacuum so
that the space between the laser and the vinyl is oxygen free!
Bill Graham
> "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:yp-dnfAnztF_6JTT...@giganews.com...
>> Charles Tomaras wrote:
>>> "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:l4Gdne1j4amRsJTT...@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will
>>>> play the old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It
>>>> seems to me that modern technology could manage this.....
>>>
>>> http://www.elpj.com/
>>
>> Nice, but a bit pricy....
>> http://www.elpj.com/purchase/index.html
>
> No need to buy the expensive model...you can get by just fine with
> the $8000 unit! :)
Oh! In that case, I'll take two......
Steve King
If you'd like an Excel spread sheet with the double-blind test results on
that, I'll send it to your private email.
Steve King
Arny Krueger
The well known problem with this device is that there is no needle to sweep
debris from the groove and distort the groove as was intended when the
record was cut. The former is the big problem, and many transcriptions are
almost unlistenable without computer tic reduction. I don't know if this is
still true, but at one time a copy of a well known computer tic removal
program was included.
Trevor
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:IZWdne2H9bYuwJfT...@giganews.com...
to sweep
> debris from the groove and distort the groove as was intended when the
> record was cut. The former is the big problem, and many transcriptions are
> almost unlistenable without computer tic reduction. I don't know if this
> is still true, but at one time a copy of a well known computer tic removal
> program was included.
Which would kind of defeat their claim that no digital procesing is involved
however!
Trevor.
David Gravereaux
> Somebody needs to develop a laser tracking/reading device that will play
> the old records without putting any wear on the grooves. It seems to me
> that modern technology could manage this.....
<http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3098>
Was done just at the time CDs came to market. It cost a fortune then,
but didn't really make it to market before the venture capital was
exhausted.
Oh, and it sounded great. I had one of the 10 or so sample Finials for
a time. Top-end was more "accurate" compared to a stylus, but liked the
sound of a V-15typeV-MR better.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable>
--
PStamler
> I believe slew rate needs to be part of this discussion.
Probably not; "slew rate" refers only to a particular misbehavior of
electronic amplifiers, not to styli and grooves.
Peace,
Paul
Scott Dorsey
>On Jun 27, 11:28=A0am, Ron Capik <r.ca...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe slew rate needs to be part of this discussion.
>
>Probably not; "slew rate" refers only to a particular misbehavior of
>electronic amplifiers, not to styli and grooves.
It can be a mechanical thing as well. We talk about the bandwidth of a
mechanical system, but we can also talk about the slew rate it has.
However, I was hoping not to get into that other different kettle of worms.
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2011-06-30 klu...@panix.com(ScottDorsey) said:
>PStamler <psta...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> I believe slew rate needs to be part of this discussion.
>>Probably not; "slew rate" refers only to a particular misbehavior
>>of electronic amplifiers, not to styli and grooves.
>It can be a mechanical thing as well. We talk about the bandwidth
>of a mechanical system, but we can also talk about the slew rate it
>has.
>However, I was hoping not to get into that other different kettle
>of worms.
I"d rather get into that one than the endless discussion of
nothing important than has broken off from this thread <g>.
That "can of worms" might at least be educational.
Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com
geoff
> PStamler <psta...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>On Jun 27, 11:28=A0am, Ron Capik <r.ca...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe slew rate needs to be part of this discussion.
>>
>>Probably not; "slew rate" refers only to a particular misbehavior of
>>electronic amplifiers, not to styli and grooves.
>
> It can be a mechanical thing as well. We talk about the bandwidth of a
> mechanical system, but we can also talk about the slew rate it has.
Yeah - like a rock on a stick has lower slew rate that a light-beam or
electron !
geoff
Peter Larsen
> "Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:iuhtb4$n06$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>> It can be a mechanical thing as well. We talk about the bandwidth
>> of a mechanical system, but we can also talk about the slew rate it
>> has.
> Yeah - like a rock on a stick has lower slew rate that a light-beam or
> electron !
Well, about there things get quite unsimple - or perhaps not, since it is
only about accellerating force pr. capita - and about which accellerating
force, for simplicity let us assume gravity.
> geoff
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
ChrisCoaster
> So, these 45s you have... are they actually vinyl, or are they the normal
> styrene pressings?
>
> The styrene sounds okay when it's new and clean, but one or two plays with
> a worn stylus and it's horrible.
>
> A fineline stylus can help a lot playing back worn styrene.
>
> Note that a lot of 45s were cut incredibly hot in order to make them loud
> on jukeboxes. Sometimes there are playback linearity issues, sometimes
> there were record linearity issues. A 50x microscope will tell you which.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anyone here own any "swingers"? . . .
Those in the know - know what I mean.
-CC
k kazoosymbols
John Williamson
> For a quick easy fix buy a mono stylus and cartridge for your phonograph to use when playing 45s - avoid using a stereo stylus cartridge when playing 45s.
>
were stereo and microgroove pressings, which a mono cartridge will make
unusable quite quickly.
Liz Tuddenham
> On Sunday, July 3, 2011 at 12:39:02 PM UTC-5, Chris K-Man wrote:
> > On Jun 23, 4:35 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > > So, these 45s you have... are they actually vinyl, or are they the normal
> > > styrene pressings?
> > >
> > > The styrene sounds okay when it's new and clean, but one or two plays with
> > > a worn stylus and it's horrible.
> > >
> > > A fineline stylus can help a lot playing back worn styrene.
> > >
> > > Note that a lot of 45s were cut incredibly hot in order to make them loud
> > > on jukeboxes.
a louder cut would sound the same as a quieter one (and an EP would
sound just as loud too).
>>> Sometimes there are playback linearity issues, sometimes
> > > there were record linearity issues. A 50x microscope will tell you which.
headroom in the pre-amp.
> > > --scott
> > >
> > > --
> > > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
> > ____________________
> > Anyone here own any "swingers"? . . .
> > Those in the know - know what I mean.
records to get the disc above the centre pin, then you can centre the
grooves, regardless of the position of the centre hole. For refinement,
add some sort of optical indicator to the arm pivot, so the process
becomes less hit & miss.
> > -CC For a quick easy fix buy a mono stylus and cartridge for your
> phonograph to use when playing 45s - avoid using a stereo stylus cartridge
> when playing 45s.
but don't use a mono cartridge with little vertical compliance or you
will damage the record. Even mono records can be damaged this way
because of the vertical stylus movement resulting from the pinch effect.
Have you considered that most of the 45s on the market nowadays will
have been played many times previously - often with something quite
brutal - so they will all be worn to hell?
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
MummyChunk
> muzician21 wrote:
> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always
sounded
> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an
LP.
>
vinyl
> before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the
Disc
> Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
>
> Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is
an
> SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition.
While
> not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing
the
> disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
>
> What's the story with 45's?
Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
today?
This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=181909909#181909909
John Williamson
> Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
> new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
> today?
>
>
> This is a response to the post seen at:
> http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=181909909#181909909
>
>
surface noise problems and were usually played on decks with a heavy arm
using cartridges with limited compliance. As a result, they got damaged
on the first play, and "as new condition" on eBay as often as not just
means no visible scratches.
Many of them were also over modulated, and very few cartridges can
manage to play them cleanly. Think 128kbps MP3 as the best quality most
of us ever heard from them.
Scott Dorsey
>
> > muzician21 wrote:
> > Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always
>sounded
> > "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an
>LP.
> >
> > Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any
>vinyl
> > before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the
>Disc
> > Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
> >
> > Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is
>an
> > SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition.
>While
> > not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing
>the
> > disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
> >
> > What's the story with 45's?
>
>Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
>new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
>today?
First of all, 45s were often cut way too hot in order to make the sound
loud on jukeboxes. And often with some aggressive EQ to make them play
without skipping on jukeboxes. This is not conducive to good sound.
Secondly, 45s are usually injection-molded styrene instead of vinyl
pressings, because you can injection mold them a lot faster than you
can press vinyl. For high speed mass production, the process is a win,
and when the discs are new they sound fine. But as soon as they get any
wear on them, the mistracking is much more offensive-sounding than that
of worn vinyl.
You can try using a fineline or van den Hul stylus on worn discs, and
fiddle with the VTA to see if you can find a position where the
distortion is reduced.
Liz Tuddenham
[...]
> loud on jukeboxes.
boxes because most juke boxes (certainly all the ones I have worked on)
had automatic volume control, so that E.P.s would play at the same
volume as standard 45s.
> Secondly, 45s are usually injection-molded styrene instead of vinyl
> pressings,
injection moulded.
Roy W. Rising
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong" Roy W. Rising
Scott Dorsey
>
>They were vinyl pressings for many years, only the later ones were
>injection moulded.
1950 for children's 78s but as soon as RCA came out with the 45 they started
licensing the patents out. There is a 1954 Billboard article about the
process saying that even Columbia had adopted it by then.
I keep meaning to write this stuff up for one of the audio magazines. I
had no idea that the adoption in the UK was delayed. In the US, I never
saw any vinyl 45s until the late eighties when they were a big thing for
college radio bands.
You have any information on styrene in the UK? Any info would be appreciated.
Liz Tuddenham
styrene. I'll have a closer look tomorrow and see if I can work out
when the changeover occurred.
I can remember seeing the occasional transparent or coloured 45s much
earlier, but they were always aimed at children