Neve 2254 or Neve 33609 ?
ShineProdu
What would be their best application?
Thanks
Fletcher
OK Geoff-you pussy, I've been waiting for days now for you to step up to
the plate and give this one a go...but noooooooo, you're too fucking
busy tracking serial numbers...
Alright, I'll give it a shot, but realize that the way I use this crap,
and the way other people use this crap is different...and Geoff, when
you see this...if you contradict me on anything (including history),
I'll rip your lungs out. You had your chance...it said "Neve" in the
header...and you sat on your dick...now I feel obliged and was hoping to
slide on it...
2254's: Came in a bunch of versions...the most common being the 2254/A
and the 2254/E. The "/E" had a "fast" and "slow" choice on the limiter
attack...the "/A" only had "way to fast" on the limiter attack...going
inside the unit you can change a resistor for the slower of the attack
times. The unit's were appoximately 5 1/4" square (OK, not perfectly
square, but close enough)...they came mostly out of early 80 series
desks, are fully discrete, and when recapped and working well are really
cool sounding. I tend to use them most on vocals and bass. I have
found the 3:1 ratio a very all purpose event for bringing vocals to the
front of a mix without them being overly loud in the balance.
I have also found that a pair of 2254/E's across a drum buss will have a
similar event...except that every now and again the release times are a
bit too long on the 2254's...which would bring us to the 2264's which
have faster release times on both the limiter and the compressor
sections. Instead of a 400ms release on the compressor, you have a
100ms release time available...and instead of the quickest release of
100ms you have a 50ms release time available on the 2264...
The 2264 was also the same frame size as the 1073, it was 10" tall, 1
3/4" wide and had a rectangular VU meter at the top, as opposed to the
goofy curved three way meter from hell of the 2254. Very often they had
the lighter grey cosmetic and the blue knob caps...and were found in
8068 and 8078 consoles and were called 32264a's...
In the original (meaning good) 33609's what you had (for all intents and
purposes) was a pair of 32264a's with a common power supply in a 19"
rack mountable/stereo lockable version for the overbridge of 8108
consoles (and the like)...they actually never had the label 33609 on the
face plate, and while rack mountable, didn't seem like they were much
interested in hawking them as a stand alone item...though many seem to
have been sold this way.
The originals were also identifyable by their metal knob caps, similar
to the "31" series modules (like the 31122's, 3114's, 3118's etc)...I
have usually found that their best applications were stereo drum busses,
the occasional 2 mix buss use, vocal tracking, and a few others. It's
been a pretty good work horse for me, but so has the 2254 as well...a
few extra features, but overall quite similar in tonal
characteristics...a little less thick than the 2254's, but not
offensively so...a bit airyier than the 2254's but not oppressively
so...
A few years later, some fucking genius decided that the original 33609's
osunded too damn good, because the 33609/C was released...and sounding
good wasn't one of it's main features. It has always sounded thinner to
me, without the immediacy of the original. Now they've released the
33609/J, which I have not heard, and for the life of me I can't figure
out why they would have put a "j" in the model number unless they really
wanted people to think of the new SSL desks every time they heard the
model nimber.
Hope this helps, Geoff will of course find the serial numbers and prove
me wrong...but I hope this helps... [lighten up Geoff, if I didn't think
you had a good pair of balls, I wouldn't break them every now and
again...it's all in fun, and I really had hoped you'd handle this one].
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
phoeni...@earthlink.net
Hi Fletcher
Nah! I deliberately left this one for you! There's a world of difference
between the opinions of the guys who helped build a device and the guys who
actually use them, and this fellah wanted real life "usage comparisons"
opinions . . . I guessed (correctly) that you were the man for that!
Balls still intact :-)
Geoff Tanner
phoeni...@earthlink.net
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Gain4u
wanted colered lights instead of switches.
There you have it
Rack-N-Roll Rob
615-376-0984
Arkadelphi
Outstanding review of the various Neve comps Fletcher!!!
I'll just jump on the band wagon and add my 2 cents. 2254's seem grainier on
the top end, just not as smooth as the 2264s. (2264a's and "old 33609" have
the same circuit board, just different mounting.) as for the old 33609 vs the
33609/C... the 33609/c lacks the body tonally, but also seems to alter the
stereo image. the space from left-center and center-right is just not as open.
Also having attack mods added makes the 2264 much more flexible( despite
Fletcher's reasonable argument against doing this, I had it done and am very
happy)
Stuart
Sdd17
called an 83046. I noticed a while back when I first got it there was a strange
low freguency cross talk on the right side when used in stereo. It is fairly
inaudible but you can see the right woofer jumping alot more than the left. I
was told it is a design flaw. The unit sounds great none the less.
Steve D
Sound Spa Rec.
phoeni...@earthlink.net
I doubt that the fault is a design flaw! Get a tech to check it over,
particularly the power supply wiring which must have been modified.
Fletcher
(Arkadelphi) writes:
>
>
>
>I'll just jump on the band wagon and add my 2 cents. 2254's seem
grainier on
>the top end, just not as smooth as the 2264s. (2264a's and "old
33609" have
>the same circuit board, just different mounting.)
Somehow, I have a feeling that you the 2254's you tried may have been
broken (a very common occurance)...I have generally found the top on
2254's rounder than the 2264's...the 2264's actually a bit airier and
open sounding. To me the description "grainy" has always meant that
the tone was a bit harsh or strident...which I have never found with a
well tuned set of 2254's. I have found that a 2254 is one of the
"thickest" sounding compressors out there...I often use them with
little or no gain reduction, just for the tone of the unit.
as for the old 33609 vs the
>33609/C... the 33609/c lacks the body tonally, but also seems to alter
the
>stereo image. the space from left-center and center-right is just not
as open.
Yeah, I found this imaging thing too...I wonder what causes that?
> Also having attack mods added makes the 2264 much more flexible(
despite
>Fletcher's reasonable argument against doing this, I had it done and
am very
>happy)
>
>
>Stuart
Again, a bit of confusion...I've never argued against an attack
mod...I've actually seen attack knobs installed on 32264a's and thought
it was rather cool...it certainly adds to the flexibility.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
billmoss
face plates,also the 83046????????
Billy Moss
phoeni...@earthlink.net wrote:
> In article <362A87...@mercenary.com>,
> Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
> > ShineProdu wrote:
> > >
> > > Can anyone do the comparison?
> > > What would be their best application?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> >
> > OK Geoff-you pussy, I've been waiting for days now for you to step up to
> > the plate and give this one a go...but noooooooo, you're too fucking
> > busy tracking serial numbers...
> >
> > Alright, I'll give it a shot, but realize that the way I use this crap,
> > and the way other people use this crap is different...and Geoff, when
> > you see this...if you contradict me on anything (including history),
> > I'll rip your lungs out. You had your chance...it said "Neve" in the
> > header...and you sat on your dick...now I feel obliged and was hoping to
> > slide on it...
> >
> > Hope this helps, Geoff will of course find the serial numbers and prove
> > me wrong...but I hope this helps... [lighten up Geoff, if I didn't think
> > you had a good pair of balls, I wouldn't break them every now and
> > again...it's all in fun, and I really had hoped you'd handle this one].
> > --
>
> Hi Fletcher
>
> Nah! I deliberately left this one for you! There's a world of difference
> between the opinions of the guys who helped build a device and the guys who
> actually use them, and this fellah wanted real life "usage comparisons"
> opinions . . . I guessed (correctly) that you were the man for that!
>
> Balls still intact :-)
>
Fletcher
>
> So what is the diff between the orig 33609, the 32264 and the33314a other than
> face plates,also the 83046????????
> Billy Moss
>
Aaaaaaaa....nothing? Same board, same parts, same layout...different
packages...in the case of the 83046...removable rack ears, it was for
the overbridge in 8108's.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
phoeni...@earthlink.net
billmoss <billmos...@uswest.net> wrote:
> So what is the diff between the orig 33609, the 32264 and the33314a other than
> face plates,also the 83046????????
> Billy Moss
>
Well, the family of Limiter Compressors that followed the 2254 range had the
design simplified to remove an extra transformer that was used as part of a
rectifier in the side chain circuitry. This was achieved by more normal
(transistor + 2 diodes) means on the later modules. Also, the 2254 audio
sections were built around the circuitry of the BA283 pcb and were all class
A.
The 2264 that followed had the more rationalised circuit with a Class AB
BA440 driving an LO1173 transformer (which did not have my pet hate, the
tertiary winding of the TO126). The 33314 was simply the 2264 motherboard
re-packaged to have a 29 pin Varelco connector and fit inside a 35 mm case
for broadcast consoles. The 1mA meter was mounted remotely. It was this
motherboard that was used to make the 33609 (which I had a hand in the design
of).
Now the PL83*** family give me a headache because this was when Neve
introduced an IBM based MRP stock control system and a huge range of very
similar sounding assembly part numbers covering individual pcbs right up to
whole consoles. It made it easy to manage stock control but makes it a
nightmare for me to remember the differences between these later part
numbers, and I left in 1985 when many of these products were in full swing.
But. . . my recollection is that a range of 33609 derivatives were introduced
with either shallower cases to fit in the top of 81 series meter bridges
and/or alternative power supply arrangements to run the single ended 33314
motherboard from the dual rail consoles of that era. I recall various ribbon
cable connections on some of these racks and regulator IC pcbs for others.
Anyone owning one of these racks knows more about the beast than my failing
memory can recall but I would guess that they would need a degree of adaption
to be used as a stand alone rack. . . in order to sort out the power supply
arrangements, for instance.
All the link switch on these units did was to join together the control dc
used to operate that diode bridge "voltage controlled attenuator" on each
unit.
I must admit that I have found quite a few Neve Limiter Compressors set up
incorrectly and a mismatch of settings on a stereo pair would cause a few
problems of image shifting. It's just a case of following the alignment test
procedure that came with the units (originally!)
billmoss
Thanks for these in depth responses to my questions about the older stuff, I
have quite a bit around and sometimes knowing the tech perspective helps make sense
of the sonic differences. Do think there would be benefits from using any of these
units that were powered +24v as compared the ones at + - 12v?
Bill
phoeni...@earthlink.net
billmoss <billmos...@uswest.net> wrote:
> Geoff'
> Thanks for these in depth responses to my questions about the older
stuff, I
> have quite a bit around and sometimes knowing the tech perspective helps make
sense
> of the sonic differences. Do think there would be benefits from using any of
these
> units that were powered +24v as compared the ones at + - 12v?
> Bill
>
I suppose it's a bit subjective really. My gut feel is that, if a piece of
equipment that is designed to run on 24v single rail is strung across a split
rail system with +/- 12v regulators supplying the juice, there might be a
degree of extra noise from the regulators and the concept of grounding the 0v
has gone out of the window. From the other point of view, I've seen some
pretty grim psu's attached to Neve modules (my favorite being an unregulated
system with lots of series R's in the path, in a box inscribed "Rupert's
Rejects". . . very droll!) and these beasts have probably got hell and all
more ripple and noise than those 7812's!
My tip of the month for the folk with the image shifting problems on their
33609's and derivatives is to check the diode bridge construction used for
the attenuator system. Early units had a matched set of diodes in an epoxy
case but later ones used 4 x 1N914's soldered tightly together. If these
didn't match perfectly between two units one would attenuate at a different
rate to the other and over would go the image.
The 1N914 hasn't got the tightest spec in the world and the trusty BAX16
(found all over old Neves!) would do the job better. Back in the "old days"
the diodes were checked by measuring the forward drop on a jig c/w psu and
limiting resistors. Nowadays the diode check function on a digital meter does
the task easy peasy and selecting eight identical diodes and using them to
make two identical bridges would go a long way towards fixing the problem.
Of course, you still have to make sure the unit is correctly calibrated!