Soundcraft TS24/Trident 80c
troubles123
I found 3 used consoles:
-Soundcraft TS-24 (5000$)
-Trident 80c (17000$)
-Soundcraft TS-12 (3500$)
I'm about to choose one.
Here are my 2 questions:
1)TS-12 or TS-24 (considering the price)? I suppose that the must noticeable
difference is the number of the busses of the 2 consoles, but what else?
2)Making the choice only between the TS-24 and the Trident.......I can spend
that money fot the Trident, but first I want to know if it's worth of that
price, compared to the price and the qualities of the Soundcraft.
It costs 3 times the Soundcraft, ok, but is the difference between the 2
consoles so noticeable to justify 12000$ of difference?
If I only have to look at the "features", the TS24 (in-line, 2 band
parametric and 2 band semi-parametric eq, 24 busses, Evamix III automation)
kiks off the Trident, but obviously the sound makes the difference and is
the first fact to consider.
What can you suggest me?
thank you, forgive my english
Andrea (from Italy)
Peter Duemmler
- busses (12 vs 24)
- the TS-12愀 EQs are semi-parametric only (lo and hi are switchable
frequencies and bell/shelv)
I worked on a TS-12 some years and I didn愒 like it that much...
I like my TAC Magnum better.
The TS-24 seems to be a good deal for the price to me, though.
Peter
---
http://www.merlinsound.de
Jay Kahrs
>I found 3 used consoles:
>-Soundcraft TS-24 (5000$)
>-Trident 80c (17000$)
>-Soundcraft TS-12 (3500$)
>
>I'm about to choose one.
>
>2)Making the choice only between the TS-24 and the Trident.......I can spend
>that money fot the Trident, but first I want to know if it's worth of that
>price, compared to the price and the qualities of the Soundcraft.
>It costs 3 times the Soundcraft, ok, but is the difference between the 2
>consoles so noticeable to justify 12000$ of difference?
Depends. The Trident is a classic that'll sound great and might bring in some
clients just because of the name. I've never used the Soundcraft but I'd assume
it's a bit newer, probably cleaner sounding and a good console in it's own
right. If you had a bunch of outboard pres and EQ's I might be tempted to go
with the Soundcraft. If your using the pres and EQ's on the console the Trident
is going to be tough to beat.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here --> http://www.gearslutz.com
Jim Williams
There are important differences "under the hood". The TS-24 does have
full parametric EQ (except for the sweepable shelf hi and low bands),
and dual inputs, but the EQ can't be split. The mic pre is a 1970's
"instrumentation" amplifier with increasing distortion/error at higher
gains similar to the pre in the Trident 65. The console is full of fet
switches which help cloud the signal, and it's a little old and very
large.
The TS-12 is 12 buss with semi-para EQ but allows the EQ to be split
between the two inputs. It's mic pre is a Paul Buff inspired
"Trans-Amp" (tm) and is very clean up to +60 db gains. Both consoles
use another Paul Buff inspired mix/sum stage using an op-amp combined
with discrete transistors allowing 85 to 90 db crosstalk specs. This
is very important if you like wide, 3-d mixes.
The Trident 80 has poor quality transformers in a poorly designed mic
pre that sounds boxy and noisy to me. The EQ interacts, as you tweak
one band of mid EQ, the other band moves, kind of like pushing down a
drop of oil floating on water with your thumb, it just moves around.
Funny, Trident realized this problem and fixed it in the 80 c monitor
modules, but never fixed it on the 1979 designed input modules. The
mix/sum stage is a standard inverting op-amp, (NE5534), which runs out
of loop gain after around 20+ inputs are assigned causing a blurred
mix, like when you mix all the colors together and end up with
"brown". It is limited to -60 db crosstalk, rather "mono" sounding in
comparison to the Soundcrafts. It's like your pan pots only go to 9
and 3 o'clock instead of 8 and 5 o'clock.
Both the TS-24 and Trident 80 use Preh brand pots, a company long out
of business. If you need one for the TS-24, Soundcraft has a 15 year
supply of spares on hand. If you break one on the Trident, you can
then throw it away = no spares. Trident uses Shadow switches that are
easily replaced, the Soundcrafts use those small alps switches that
seem to wear out fast. If you add a small amount of Stabilant 22A to
these switches, they will last for 20+ years.
All three consoles are based on the TL07X series of op-amps, one of
the major reasons discrete Neve's get so much money, these are the
spitty, small sounding chips that created the demand for the vintage
console market. To my ears , all three sound more alike than sound
different. All could benefit to improved op-amps, transistors and
coupling caps.
The Tridents will probably bring in more folks "looking" for
impressive brand names, the Soundcrafts with a little work will bring
them back.
Jim Williams Audio Upgrades
James Perrett
>
> Depends. The Trident is a classic that'll sound great and might bring in some
> clients just because of the name. I've never used the Soundcraft but I'd assume
> it's a bit newer, probably cleaner sounding and a good console in it's own
> right. If you had a bunch of outboard pres and EQ's I might be tempted to go
> with the Soundcraft. If your using the pres and EQ's on the console the Trident
> is going to be tough to beat.
They are roughly the same age - maybe the Soundcraft is a little newer
but not much. You are paying the extra for the Trident name which is
trendier in the US than Soundcraft.
Cheers.
James.
Kirt Shearer
With all due respect to you and your company, I think you are in the
minority with your slamming of the 80b in favor of a TS-12. I think
everyone will agree that the 80b is not transparent or perfect, but I
don't think you'll find anyone who would prefer the sound of a project
tracked and mixed on the Soundcraft verses the Trident. I agree that
the components are not state of the art in an 80b, but I have never
found them to sound "cloudy." They have a nice character for most
things.....and the reputation in comparison to a TS-12 can't ALL be
attributed to hype.
Just another opinion............
Kirt Shearer
Paradise Studios
Sacramento, Ca.
jwill...@audioupgrades.com (Jim Williams) wrote in message
news:<a377f4b9.03021...@posting.google.com>...
wayne freeman
The TS-24 is a much older console than the 80C (by at least 5-7
years). The parts on the TS are less robust than the 80C so be
carefull of channel integrity. They are both good sounding consoles,
but if you are going to pay multiples more for the Trident go with the
TS-24. I know both consoles very well as I ran bothe companies
(different times) in the U.S.
Wayne Freeman
Jim Williams
> Jim,
> With all due respect to you and your company, I think you are in the
> minority with your slamming of the 80b in favor of a TS-12. I think
> everyone will agree that the 80b is not transparent or perfect, but I
> don't think you'll find anyone who would prefer the sound of a project
> tracked and mixed on the Soundcraft verses the Trident. I agree that
> the components are not state of the art in an 80b, but I have never
> found them to sound "cloudy." They have a nice character for most
> things.....and the reputation in comparison to a TS-12 can't ALL be
> attributed to hype.
> Just another opinion............
> Kirt Shearer
> Paradise Studios
> Sacramento, Ca.
little "cloudy", not the Trident 80. My intentions were to offer a few
facts about the construction and performance of these three consoles
to a fella that needed some extra insight into them so he could make a
more informed buying decision. If my personnal opinions offend you,
then so be it. To assume that the many TS-12 owners would prefer a
Trident over their Soundcrafts is speculation without having first
asked their opinions about it. As to "character", I'm the first to
admit that there are more than a few out there that prefer a certain
amount and flavor of dirt in their audio, I'm just not one of them...
Jim Williams Audio Upgrades
David Morley
serviced and no trouble since then) and lot愀 of features. Very Good mic
pre愀 too IMHO. Also, the routing features are great etc. I have a small
trident 65, so can愒 compare with an 80 or a TS12. Value for money, the TS24
is hard to beat, but the Trident will keep it愀 value better probably, but
you扉e got more to lose!
Anyway, a TS24 is a great console and if it愀 in good condition, you would
be very happy with it sonically I惴 sure.
Only thing is the routing switches can be troublesome. Make sure they seem
to work as they would be a pain to replace.
david
Kirt Shearer
> > If you re-read my post you will discover that I called the TS-24 a
> little "cloudy", not the Trident 80. >>
My error. You called mixes on the 80b " blurred" and "mono
sounding", not "cloudy." I still don't agree.
<<If my personnal opinions offend you,
> then so be it. >>
Nope. I'm not offended by your opinions. Are you offended by mine?
<<To assume that the many TS-12 owners would prefer a
> Trident over their Soundcrafts is speculation without having first
> asked their opinions about it.>>
Umm....Of course I haven't polled all TS-12 owners. I didn't
realise that this group relied on backing up opinions with research
polling. But that's not what I said anyway. I said most people would
prefer the sound of a mix done on an 80b verses a TS-12. Now, of
course that is opinion. But based on the buzz (historically)
surrounding the 80b and the lack of buzz surrounding the TS-12....in
fact the negative postings I've seen regarding specifically the TS-12,
I don't think I'm totally off the mark. (I haven't come armed with
specific posts, I'm mearley recalling from memory.) Also, there are a
few folks whose opinion I respect around here that are quite vocal
about their affection for the 80b. Again, it is FAR from perfect. But
it's pretty damn good for the price. It was just my opinion that your
appraisal of the 80b was overly harsh. I feel that it is more than
just an "impressive brand name." Since the goal was to advise someone
who was looking for opinions, I was offereing an alternative.
bobpopp
our ts12... it later went to d'rcy's farm where steve spapparri took
great care of it till karry and d'rcy split up.
afwiw..... we repaced the ts12 with a neotek elite.... you might want to
look for a neotek they are pretty good desks.... the ts's will be beat
at that price... i promise they will be. 2 years ago, i almost bought a
ts24 for $2,000.00 us.
bp.
Kurt Ballou
> To assume that the many TS-12 owners would prefer a
> Trident over their Soundcrafts is speculation without having first
> asked their opinions about it.
I own a TS-12, but I frequently work on an 80b. I'd rather have an
80b. Anyone want to trade?
-Kurt
Dennis Weinreich
Lots of interesting comments in this thread. I used both over the
years and in my view the Trident is a bigger more open sound. I would
master on the 80 but would never work in a studio with a TS24 for more
than demos. I agree that the 80 is colored but that is why it has a
sound (and a sound which is appealing). Be warned. The Shadow switches
in the Trident are rubbish and the standard patch bay not a lot
better. The desks could be bought with gold shadows and moses and
mitchell bantam patch bay, but few were ordered with these options as
the 80 was for it's time a budget console. Comments about the mic amps
are interesting here. The transformer trident mic amps were good, the
transformerless amps were frankly sad. As this is an 80c it may be
transformerless. That would stop me buying it. The TS24 lacked
headroom and had a quality that made everything sound alike. I loved
working on the Soundcraft because the layout was good and it had nice
facilities, but it really was not a great help on the sound front.
Having said that I was always frustrated that the bottom end of demos
I would record on the TS at a studio here would always have better
definition than the masters that I would usually do on a Neve or
Cadac. The Trident name only carries cachet in the US. Here in England
only the A and B range are thought of as major consoles. The switches
and patchbay on the TS are really awful period. FWIW I bought a new
80c some years ago. Gold Shadows, Moses and Mitchell and a lot of
custom work including custom mariner mic amp xformers. It was a really
nice sounding desk and reliable. My friend Phil Dudderidge who owned
Soundcraft at the time never needed to ask why I didn't consider one
of his desks
bobpopp <bob...@noneofyerbiznez.snot> wrote in message news:<3E539F3F...@noneofyerbiznez.snot>...
Jay Kahrs
>Trident over their Soundcrafts is speculation without having first
>asked their opinions about it. As to "character", I'm the first to
>admit that there are more than a few out there that prefer a certain
>amount and flavor of dirt in their audio, I'm just not one of them...
Which is well known by people who you've modded stuff for. The common words I
hear about the things you do are "clean, fast, hi-fi" and sometimes clinical
has been thrown around. Clean or dirty, it's both good depending on what you
want to get.
David Morley
headroom problem. Mine has 2 power supplies though. Maybe a reason?
I just think they are seriously underrated consoles. MCI´s seem to be
getting a bit cult these days and I´m sorry, but a TS24 is a better console
than the 600 or the 500 I used. value for money (or as a friend put it
"Dollar to weight ratio") the TS24 is a bargain.
troubles123
It's a great peasure to me to see that people are still happy to help each
other.
I didn't find the same help here in italy: everyone I asked for advices
seemed to hide to me something like secrets to keep for himself, maybe
afraid that in the future I could steal work to him....incredible.... (I
hope you understood, because my english is not so good...)
By the way, I go for the TS-24.
For 2 reasons. The first is because I understood that the difference between
the two consoles is not so huge: it's what I wanted to hear.
Second, because unfortunately the price of the Trident has rised to 21.000$,
as I didn't consider the fuc***g italian taxes. It's too much for me.
I'm sure I'll be happy with the Soundcraft console.
When I'll get it, I let you know my impressions!
another time, thanx a lot
Andrea
David Morley
Spend some of the money that you saved by not buying the Trident on giving
the TS24 a decent service (get those power supplies tuned up!) and you´ll be
happier still.
Ciao!
David
> Von: "troubles123" <succo...@libero.it>
> Organisation: [Infostrada]
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Datum: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:33:10 GMT
> Betreff: Soundcraft TS24/Trident 80c
>
Dennis Weinreich
that it had as much to do with the sudios that had TS24's as the desk
itself. The fact was a lot of cheap and nasty studios had TS24's. So
you went there for demos and such and got an overall impression. The
fact was that the Soundcraft was just not a player at the top end, but
perhaps as David says, deserved to be.
I re read Andrea's posting and if the TS is in good nick, the extra
money for an 80c may not really be worth it. Both may be better than
modern the options..
SO:
An opinion from an old engineer/producer about how I feel things have
changed. I have been really lucky. I have worked at the better end of
things since the late 60's. Good studios best gear all the right
stuff. As my studios grew I made what I thought were good decisions
about what gear was going to serve the needs of our clients. We were
one of the first rooms in the UK to go fully digital. Now all 6 of our
rooms are digital with AMS-Neve consoles and the usual bits. And
indeed the digital stuff is really low stress to work on. BUT I just
cannot understand how anyone could think the digital desks sound
anything as good as the analogue. I go in and do a session in our
studio 1 (AMS-Neve Libra) and it is all I can do to get as much
analogue into the signal chain to make it sound like something. I am
not ragging on the desks directly. But none of the digital stuff, no
matter who makes it, sounds of anything. Like a hamburger with no
salt. (Sushi with no wasabi?). I guess if you learned your craft on
the digits you develop a style that fits. But when I comment about the
TS 24 and Trident it seems so sad that this stuff has become classic
instead of mainstream. I collect Valve (tube) gear. Mics, compressors
etc. I remember putting an U47 on a vocal, kissing it with a LA2 and
hitting the 456 with a bit of level and it was just so exciting to
hear it back. Now the same stuff in the front end of the signal chain
and it sounds OK but the excitement is not there.
Andrea, Buy either desk. Put it in right, mate it to a good recorder
in a nice sounding room and remember that good recording is not
painting with EQ. The smile on your face will say it all.
David Morley <david....@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<BA7B9E76.17417%david....@t-online.de>...> I find the bottom end of the TS24 to be brilliant, but I never had a