Eminem Bites
William Vits
David Morgan (MAMS)
"William Vits" <vi...@home.com> wrote in message news:Kn0l6.13999$0u5.3...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> The Big One!
>
>
Hats off to U-2 !!!!
DM
S. Warner
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <ma...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:4506D303A73330D1.1B8E96DA...@lp.airnews.net...
> Hats off to U-2 !!!!
Definitely! One of the few smiles I had all evening.
So, who was in charge of dumping the delay on Eminem's performance? They
missed a couple of 'shits'.
2 Live Crew wasn't as bad as this. And they went to jail.
-Scott (Warner)
Joe Bruno
wrote:
>The Big One!
>
Good thing that thug didn't win the album of the year!
Guitarboy1733324
than Steely Dan's Deacn Blues fer chrst's sake!!!! If this trend keeps up there
should be a new catagory "Album of the Year For Folks Too Old to Buy Albums" I
mean Steely Dan sold what barely platinum and had not a single radio single.
Deacon BLues vs Stand? Geeez. And I'm an old white guy!
Scott Owen
Maybe you should start rapping :)...but seriously, I don't think album sales
are very relevant when most of the people that purchased his album are
brainless, MTV watching, 13 year-olds that spend their allowance on whatever
Carson Daly tells them to.
Doc Gorpon
>than Steely Dan's Deacn Blues fer chrst's sake!!!!
If by "relevant" you mean more hip, you are correct. However, his music is
garbage.. (and I have nothing against his lyrics, although I think they're
poorly written). For one thing, that album (and the song he did live) consist
largely of samples from other artists. Like most rappers, he makes his "songs"
recognizable and catchy by stealing the choruses of hits and putting them in
his songs. So if that album got voted album of the year, it seems like they
would have to give out about 16 other awards to bands who's songs where
butchered to make that horrid piece of shit. I wouldn't go so far as to ban all
rap albums from the awards, but I can tell you that I think very few of them
should be eligible. With maybe some rules like "the majority of the album can't
consist of direct samples from other bands". Or maybe "there has to be some
actual instrumentation on the album other than a producer sitting at a computer
cutting and pasting computer generated kick drum hits". They could be in the
"sold most records" catagory. I'd have no problem with that. :)
Scott Dorsey
But this is the nature of the pop music industry. Anybody who thinks it was
ever any different doesn't remember Leslie Gore or the 1910 Fruitgum Company.
That's what pop music is about. This is not profound music that will last
for posterity, this is the Menudo of a new generation. It's not supposed to
be more than that.
--scott
(old white guy)
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
RUMADasiam
>largely of samples from other artists. Like most rappers, he makes his
>"songs"
>recognizable and catchy by stealing the choruses of hits and putting them in
>his songs.
Not being that familiar with Eminem, I would be very interested in what bands
he has ripped licks or whatever off of. Please start with the most offensive
thefts first. I kinda liked "stan" to be honest but all esthetics aside, I
have a serious ethics issue with riff stealing or "chorus lifting" of other
artisrts endevors.
With maybe some rules like "the majority of the album
>can't
>consist of direct samples from other bands".
Directly sampled audio? Once again, please fill me in.
Dan Killoran
Scott Dorsey
>>For one thing, that album (and the song he did live) consist
>>largely of samples from other artists. Like most rappers, he makes his
>>"songs"
>>recognizable and catchy by stealing the choruses of hits and putting them in
>>his songs.
>
>Not being that familiar with Eminem, I would be very interested in what bands
>he has ripped licks or whatever off of. Please start with the most offensive
>thefts first. I kinda liked "stan" to be honest but all esthetics aside, I
>have a serious ethics issue with riff stealing or "chorus lifting" of other
>artisrts endevors.
You mean like that song that goes "How gentle is the rain..." from the sixties?
--scott
Nocturne
The way he lifts music is completely different from the Puff Daddy type way of just
sampling 8 bars of a song and rapping over it.
Stan...the song you are referring to, has music originally done by Dido...and you
know what...he took the cool part of the song, the rest of the song is boring and
crappy....he made her a shitload of money in addition to giving her fame...she
would have neither if he hadn't "ripped off" her song.
And to insinuate that "most" of the album is that way is pretty bold...now you are
messing with Dr. Dre, who produced it, and who won "Best Producer Of The Year"
pretty much because he IS the best producer out there...regardless of how you feel
about rap (and I am not the biggest fan) Dr. Dre's projects always sound killer and
from listening to all his albums, there really is not that much music directly
lifted from other people.
And even if it was all lifts...Eminem is not a musician per se, he is a rapper..and
he's good at it, and I like listening to it (again, I am not a huge rap fan) and
his lyrics are funny. His music is equivalent to watching Must See TV on
Thursdays...not a lot of content, but entertaining none the less. The music is a
"vehicle" for him to rap over, not the main focus, so who cares?
Ahhh, why bother.
j. taylor
could!
who's such a self-indulgent loser, that the listener must pity him!
(or wish he'd just walk in front of a bus.) I'm sorry. Aja sucked.
Now the albums before that were good. Great even.
I'm gonna get me a used copy of that new one on e-bay and see what the big fuss is
all about.
Will Hunt
David Morgan (MAMS)
"j. taylor" <jejt...@mediaone.net> wrote in message regarding "The Dan"
> I'm gonna get me a used copy of that new one on e-bay and see what the big fuss is
> all about.
I think it's about 'tick' accurate timing and clinical perfection
over a possibly loose but outstanding performance. Perhaps
a little something to do with a fresh influx of spending money
as well.
;-)
DM
hank alrich
> I mean Steely Dan sold what barely platinum and had not a single radio single.
Thanks for reminding me that's it's not about the music, it's about the
money, at least in your mind. And I'm no big SD fan. M&M's music does
reflect unfortunate aspects of our culture, but there's also a point
where an artist might take responsibility for the potential effect of
their "art" and attempt to present something other than mayhem and
misogyny as "entertainment".
I've been listening to a Neville Bros. collection, and for all the
audio-musical beauty of "Over You", the lyrics make it another "kill the
bitch" song. No, thanks. From "Knoxville Girl", "Banks of the Ohio", and
the like, which might be specifically historical, to M&M's spew, which
might be fuel for distraught, maturity-challenged males, flows a river
of dead females. Sorry, man, but this isn't art and it eats shit.
Next thing we know, Elton will be hugging statues of Hitler.
Heh heh.
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
dgkenney
Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:973vmk$5lf$1...@panix3.panix.com...
>
> You mean like that song that goes "How gentle is the rain..." from the
sixties?
> --scott
I'll give you 60 seconds to stop that.
Dan
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.228 / Virus Database: 109 - Release Date: 1/17/01
Doc Gorpon
>have a serious ethics issue with riff stealing or "chorus lifting" of other
>artisrts endevors.
Well, the chorus in "Stan" is a sample of the chorus from another single
that's in the charts as we speak by a female singer named Dido. Actually, it's
not even a sample. It's just the chorus lifted from one song and put in
another.
>majority of the album
>>can't
>>consist of direct samples from other bands".
>
>Directly sampled audio? Once again, please fill me in.
Well, speaking of rap artists in general:
Puff Daddy - Every Step You Take
Tone Loc - Jamie's Crying
Vanilla Ice - Under Pressure
etc. etc. etc. They almost never make up thier own music. They simply use the
music from other tunes.
Doc Gorpon
>The way he lifts music is completely different from the Puff Daddy type way
>of just
>sampling 8 bars of a song and rapping over it.
Yeah. Way more interesting. He samples the song and raps around it instead of
over it. Great.
>he took the cool part of the song, the rest of the song is boring and
>crappy.
Not as boring as the lame verses on Stan.
>she
>would have neither if he hadn't "ripped off" her song.
That's total speculation. I don't believe it.
>.now you are
>messing with Dr. Dre, who produced it, and who won "Best Producer Of The
>Year"
So?
>pretty much because he IS the best producer out there
Heh heh. That's a good one.
>The music is a
>"vehicle" for him to rap over, not the main focus, so who cares?
>
Ok. So the music isn't a big deal. So why is he recieving musicians' awards?
Doc Gorpon
>for posterity, this is the Menudo of a new generation. It's not supposed to
>be more than that.
Please. Tell that to the Beatles.
ROMCHA
the verses in "Stan" are neither boring or lame. I think Eminem deserves every
award he gets. (and I'm not a rap fan)
ROMCHA
that's in the charts as we speak by a female singer named Dido. Actually, it's
not even a sample. It's just the chorus lifted from one song and put in
another.
>>
we probably wouldnt have even heard the Dido song if it weren't for
Eminem...plus she sang it with him on SNL...so she probably has no problems
with it.
Doc Gorpon
>every
>award he gets. (and I'm not a rap fan)
I say they are boring and lame. So there! The only award he deserves is
"world's most famous dipshit". (I'm not an M&M fan)
Doc Gorpon
>Eminem...
That means absolutely nothing except that he is more popular than her at the
moment. It doesn't mean he has an ounce of talent, or justify his garbage.
Besides, I'm sure we would've heard about her sooner or later with or without
that cockhead using her chorus. Her songs and voice are quite good. That
explains why her part is the only good part in that wretched song.
>plus she sang it with him on SNL...so she probably has no problems
>with it.
No.. but I do.
ROMCHA
"world's most famous dipshit". (I'm not an M&M fan)
>>
you sound like my parents
ROMCHA
well, get over it
The_Kooch
news:20010222222431...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> >The music is a
> >"vehicle" for him to rap over, not the main focus, so who cares?
> >
>
> Ok. So the music isn't a big deal. So why is he recieving musicians'
awards?
Ummmm....Maybe because the Grammys are stupid? Maybe because NARAS is a
joke? Maybe because art is not a competition and to force it to be degrades
it to begin with? Maybe because it's more fun and a shitload easier to get
people worked up over lame pop culture crap than to attempt helping them
discover greatness in lesser known artists?
Maybe because most people are clueless idiots that don't even know why they
like certain music/art anyway. They look to award shows and morons(also
called "critics") to justify their pablum taste.
Just once I'd love to see someone get up to the podium to recieve their
Grammy and decline. "Thanks for the nod, but art is not a boxing match.
For me to accept this award would break my principles, so I cannot." What
a hero this soon-unemployed person would be!
Ah well, I think the most I can somewhat realistically hope for is for
Marilyn Manson or somesuch to get up there and say, "I'd like to
thank...............(pregnant pause lean into the mic)...Satan. (small
pause) For creating this industry that has given me so much!"
--Kooch
RUMADasiam
> Puff Daddy - Every Step You Take
> Tone Loc - Jamie's Crying
> Vanilla Ice - Under Pressure
> etc. etc. etc. They almost never make up thier own music. They simply use
>the
>music from other tunes.
I wasn't speaking in general. Stick to "Stan" or the marshal mathers CD. I'm
just curious about this one CD.
Dan Killoran
Scott Dorsey
The Beatles were one of those rare exceptions who tried to make pop music
but wound up making something a lot greater and more enduring. It's nice
when that happens, but for every Beatles there are a whole lot more 1910
Fruitgum Companies.
--scott
Scott Dorsey
Oh, she's getting paid for the usage, so I don't think anyone has anything
against that. The original poster is just claiming that creating sound
collages with samples makes music that is inherently less original. (I am
not sure I agree with that, but since I don't listen to the stuff I can't
really say either way.)
Blind Joni
>
My normal response to this statement is.....'YOUR PARENTS ARE PROBABLY RIGHT!!"
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Albany, NY
"Survivor of the Slums"
hank alrich
> The original poster is just claiming that creating sound
> collages with samples makes music that is inherently less original. (I am
> not sure I agree with that, but since I don't listen to the stuff I can't
> really say either way.)
Hell, one can start from scratch and still make clone-o-matic music, and
one can use samples to deliver something very original and interesting.
So we're back to the question of "where's the creativity" and the
shortage of answers in the bigtime music circus arenas, which shouldn't
surprise us.
hank alrich
> >you sound like my parents
> My normal response to this statement is.....
> 'YOUR PARENTS ARE PROBABLY RIGHT!!"
Yeah, that happens, but most youngsters (and I was no different) are too
full of themselves and shit to realize the value of experience. And many
parents are not willing to deal with the concept that they are _not_
always right.
Bob Harvey
>Doc Gorpon <docg...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>That's what pop music is about. This is not profound music that will last
>>>for posterity, this is the Menudo of a new generation. It's not supposed to
>>>be more than that.
>>
>> Please. Tell that to the Beatles.
>
>The Beatles were one of those rare exceptions who tried to make pop music
>but wound up making something a lot greater and more enduring. It's nice
>when that happens, but for every Beatles there are a whole lot more 1910
>Fruitgum Companies.
>--scott
Oh Man!
I could have gone the rest of my life without having to be reminded of
that classic 'Yummee Yummee Yummee I got love in my tummy'
Thanks Scott
JnyVee.
>
> << No.. but I do. >>
>
> well, get over it
and just perhappenstance why shouldn;t YOU 'get over it' and stop
supporting plagarism?
Don;t bother to answer... it's just rhetorical.
jv
JnyVee.
to lunch. You;re WRONG.. no opinion involved.. I refuse to believe that
there's ANYBODY out there that isn;t an M&M fan of SOME sort.. there's
Jon 'Hershey's Almond Nuggets Rule anyway" vee
--
and as Mike Rivers once said:
"...smart people neither take out their own tonsils
nor pre-master their own projects."
--
JnyVee.
oh yeah Bob YOU should talk.. Scott only mentioned the BAND NAME...
anal-completist old YOU had to go QUOTE THE TITLE and REALLY mess up my
day....
shit... next somebody'll mention The Archies...
jv
Joe Bruno
Grammy awards are not given based on the album sales, but rather on
the merits of the music that is presented on the album. At least that
is what I think should happen.
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:48:45 -0500, "Scott Owen" <sko...@ufl.edu>
wrote:
>> And I'm an old white guy!
>
>Maybe you should start rapping :)...but seriously, I don't think album sales
>are very relevant when most of the people that purchased his album are
>brainless, MTV watching, 13 year-olds that spend their allowance on whatever
>Carson Daly tells them to.
>
Joe Bruno
LOL. I can see it already, hugging the statue and rapping "Bitch is
Back" Hee Hee
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:57:21 -0800, walk...@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote
Doc Gorpon
>
>The Beatles were one of those rare exceptions who tried to make pop music
>but wound up making something a lot greater and more enduring. It's nice
>when that happens, but for every Beatles there are a whole lot more 1910
>Fruitgum Companies.
I'm not buying it. Pop bands don't set out to make bad music and then
sometimes accidentally make good music that, therefore, is not pop. I agree
that the majority of it may not be great, but that doesn't mean that the music
is defined as "bad and disposable". Rather many of the bands making it are "bad
and disposable". But the intent of the genre is far from that. Some great pop
bands:
Sugar, the Jam, Elvis Costello, the Police
Like every genre you have to sort through layers and layers of terrible bands
to get to the really great one.
Doc Gorpon
>I'm
>just curious about this one CD.
>Dan Killoran
Well, I was speaking in more general terms about the genre as a whole. I'd
have to hear the whole MM record to tell you which songs used samples of other
songs. Put it this way: Whenever you hear instrumentation of any sort on that
record, you can bet 10 to 1 that it was lifted from someone.
Doc Gorpon
>against that. The original poster is just claiming that creating sound
>collages with samples makes music that is inherently less original.
That is correct. Also I was implying that if someone like m&m gets an award
for which almost half of the song is lifted directly from someone else's, then
they should have the award presented to them also.
ROMCHA
have to hear the whole MM record to tell you which songs used samples of other
songs. >>
Hey...what a concept...listen to it.
MG
A REAL musician. -Mg
Mike Rivers
In article <eH4l6.8$2W1....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> san...@earthlink.net writes:
> So, who was in charge of dumping the delay on Eminem's performance? They
> missed a couple of 'shits'.
I thought it was OK to say that on TV now.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Don Kehoe
Doc Gorpon wrote:
I'm an M&M's fan! I really like the peanut ones! Plain's OK too. The almond
ones are really good too, but the vending machine at work doesn't carry them.
Which one was on the Grammy's? The one that licks the other M&M's in that TV
commercial?
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Geoff Wood
geoff ;-)
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:975p1d$t43$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Geoff Wood
g.
"Bob Harvey" <rha...@iserv.net> wrote in message
Geoff Wood
BTW in NZ we get 'fuck' anytime after 8:30P, as long as there is a notice at
the start of the program to expect rude words, naughty bits, violence, or
bonking. Sometimes even all of the above, but that's usuaully a little bit
later ...
geoff
"Mike Rivers" <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr982882729k@trad...
JnyVee.
>
> I LOVE that song. It's like a 70's version of Turning Japanese !
NOT FAIR!!!!!!!
JAPANESE enough energy and agressive deadpan silliness to rival The Who
Sell Out (almost, especially considering the years-long wasteland of pop
radio in which it appeared) which was interestingly pretty much what it
was DESIGNED to be on the coatails of The Jam and such.... NO comparison
with 'yummi' which I found sickening when it was new adn never found
cause to re-evaluate.
.
Doc Gorpon
Hey.. you're starting to get on my nerves. I've heard that terrible album
several times. I'd have to hear it and listen more carefully to figure out
which songs are using which samples.
JnyVee.
>
> JnyVee. said...
teh problem is that we weren't talking about what iot WAS, we were
talking that someone expressed their thought on plagarism in general and
you dismissed it and I figures trhre was equal reason for you to dismiss
your opinion for them as they had to dismiss theirs for you.
JnyVee.
requested and granted, papers were signed, royalties arranged for the
lifted sections of previous recordings?
Aux wrote:
>
> Nocturne said...
>
> > Stan...the song you are referring to, has music originally done by Dido...and you
> > know what...he took the cool part of the song, the rest of the song is boring and
> > crappy....
>
> Y'see I don't agree. I think the chorus is excellent. I like the bongo
> intro too. It just ain't "crappy".
>
> > he made her a shitload of money in addition to giving her fame...she
> > would have neither if he hadn't "ripped off" her song.
>
> It certainly didn't do any harm. But check the figures. She was doing okay
> without the m&m track. But, like I said, it didn;t hurt.
>
> > Ahhh, why bother.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Marc
>
> "People don't buy records for sound quality, they buy records for emotional
> quality." Moby
Scott Dorsey
>so let me get this straight... You know for certain that rights were
>requested and granted, papers were signed, royalties arranged for the
>lifted sections of previous recordings?
Well, since the person whose music was lifted was appearing with him
at an award ceremony, and appeared to be civil, I presume so.
There is in fact a standard procedure for using samples legally, and
most of the folks doing sample-heavy music do so, because they have
seen the consequences of the alternative.
Doc Gorpon
>
>I'm happy to post a brief description of 'verse' and 'chorus' if folks are
>having hard time with the concept.
Well, I'm not that familiar with the Dido original song. I can say that it is
lifted and used in the chorus of emenim's shitty song.
When you post another reply, why don't you try to just tell us what your
opinion is without the dickish sarcasm tagged at the end. I'd be more inclined
to converse with someone who isn't acting like an asshole.
Thanks!
Doc Gorpon
>talking uninformed crap.
Gosh, thanks for enlightening us with your opinions that are obviously
gospel.... (to someone other than myself).
Doc Gorpon
>It isn't plagiarism, it's a business deal. What is the problem here?
Well you're getting way off topic. The original post was saying that a song
that has lifted a part of another song and used it as it's main attraction
makes the final product not nearly as good as the original. Sure, there are
exceptions.. like if someone were to sample a riff from a song, play it
backwards, put thier own instrumentation on top of it, and run it through a
flanger.. that would probably sound nothing like the original and would in
effect be using that sample as an instrument to simply create another sound.
Someone like m&m who does little to change the lifted part and uses it's
melody as the main attraction of his own song. Even to go so far as to use the
vocals from the original song... well, that's just not very artistic. It's not
illegal, but people who think he's a great artist and praise him with awards
and words like "genius" and "brilliant" are basically insane.
S. Warner
"MG" <mg...@csusm.edu> wrote in message news:3A96B680...@csusm.edu...
> See this is why I listen to 5% Rap, 10% R&B, and 85% Prince.
> A REAL musician. -Mg
I haven't been impressed by Prince in over 10 years. But his whole 80's
output (released and unreleased) is enough to keep him 'up in heah' for
another 10.
-Scott (Warner)
MIDIGOD
Express. Perhaps you're thinking of "Please me Tease Me"....?
-Craig
JnyVee.
>
> Sorry, but 1910 Fruitgum Company didn't do "Yummy Yummy Yummy." That was Ohio
> Express. Perhaps you're thinking of "Please me Tease Me"....?
yummy yummy...
chewy chewy...
sugar sugar...
what a Great Time for music...
then again there was Clapton at his best, Hendrix, Mountain, Johnny
Winter, Shawn Phillips, Rory Gallagher...
I feel better now...
hank alrich
> shit... next somebody'll mention The Archies...
Were they the Monkees neighbors?
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
hank alrich
> Pop bands don't set out to make bad music and then
> sometimes accidentally make good music that, therefore, is not pop.
They set out to make a living, playing pop music. If they create
something of enduring significance, that doesn't mean it's no longer pop
music. We could find refreshing the idea that now and again something
popular could also be something of enduring significance.
Doc Gorpon
Well, any musician would like to make a living. If someone chooses to play
pop music, that doesn't mean that money is the sole reason for them to choose
that genre. Quite the opposite.
If they create
>something of enduring significance, that doesn't mean it's no longer pop
>music. We could find refreshing the idea that now and again something
>popular could also be something of enduring significance.
>
At first I was completely dismayed by your response. I think we are using the
term pop differently. Yes, technically it means popular. Yes, most popular
bands (especially in this day and age) are crap. But I'm speaking of it in
terms of a genre of music. A band like the Jam or Sugar or the Replacements is
what I'm talking about. They have melody and are based around songwriting and
the usual rock instruments. I consider them to be pop or powerpop. But they
were not "popular" in terms of selling millions of records or having hits.
Having stated my definition of pop music, I don't see how anyone could debate
it's quality, unless you are only into classical and jazz. Out of the grand
genre of rock, pop is the most intelligent when it comes to chord structures. I
don't understand how people can say that pop is inherently disposable, unless
they are speaking solely of the artists like Debbie Gibson. Bad artists in any
genre are disposable and worthless.
JnyVee.
>
> No they chased around Josey and the Pussy cats :>
anyone else find it completely incomprehensible that they are making a
live-action-feature about this Hanna-Barbera piece of lint?
>
> Dan
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:30:52 -0800, walk...@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
> wrote:
>
> >JnyVee. <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote:
> >
> >> shit... next somebody'll mention The Archies...
> >
> >Were they the Monkees neighbors?
--
R Krizman
>so let me get this straight... You know for certain that rights were
>requested and granted, papers were signed, royalties arranged for the
>lifted sections of previous recordings?
Um.....yes.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
>Hey man, I actually like them. I liked "Simon Says", so I tracked down the
>CD.
Bullshit. Admit it, you got it from Napster.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
>JnyVee. <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote:
>
>> shit... next somebody'll mention The Archies...
>
>Were they the Monkees neighbors?
Hey now, don't be messin with the Monkees. They were not even remotely in the
same league.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
>They set out to make a living, playing pop music. If they create
>something of enduring significance, that doesn't mean it's no longer pop
>music. We could find refreshing the idea that now and again something
>popular could also be something of enduring significance.
Mozart anyone?
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
> Well, I'm not that familiar with the Dido original song. I can say that
>it is
>lifted and used in the chorus of emenim's shitty song.
> When you post another reply, why don't you try to just tell us what your
>opinion is without the dickish sarcasm tagged at the end. I'd be more inclined
>to converse with someone who isn't acting like an asshole.
>Thanks!
If you're not familiar with the orignal what qualifies you to pass judgement on
how Mathers used it? And what entitles you to this superior attitude? It
wasn't lifted, it was licensed and became part of a larger scenario which an
awful lot of people feel (myself included) is brilliant storytelling. I
believe that Dido herself is a second-rate talent and is probably totally
thrilled that her music was used in "Stan". If you do listen to the original
Dido song in question you'll be surprised at how it dissolves into forgettable
treacle after the sampled verse. (I bought her CD because I was so enamored
with the Eminem song)
You're entitled to your opinion, but when you act as if it's more than just one
person's semi-informed opinion, you're inevitably going to get a certain amount
of "dickish sarcasm" in response. (whatever that is)
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Doc Gorpon
>on
>how Mathers used it?
Just because I'm not familiar enough with it to know the structure of the
song doesn't mean I haven't heard it several times. How can I pass judement on
m&m's use? Easy.
> And what entitles you to this superior attitude?
I entitle it apon myself.
>It
>wasn't lifted, it was licensed
Oh really? So you mean to say that he didn't just take a piece of another
song and put it directly into his? Because that's what lifting is. Don't try to
kid yourself. It was lifted even if it was legal.
> and became part of a larger scenario
Your opinion.
which an
>awful lot of people feel (myself included) is brilliant storytelling.
So?
>I
>believe that Dido herself is a second-rate talent and is probably
Ha ha! Well that speaks volumes about your judgement in music. Even if you
don't like her.. at least she does more that mumble monotone, badly written
poetry over sampled beats.
>totally
>thrilled that her music was used in "Stan".
I never said she wasn't.
>You're entitled to your opinion,
No kidding? Thanks.
>but when you act as if it's more than just one
>person's semi-informed opinion,
It's neither semi-informed or one person's opinion.
>you're inevitably going to get a certain amount
>of "dickish sarcasm" in response.
Only from dicks.
Doc Gorpon
>
Man.. that dead old bastard? He doesn't have spit on Eminem. He's the kind of
person that would actually be stupid enough to write songs instead of "license"
parts of them from other artists and then ruin them. What a hack!
Doc Gorpon
>
>Hey now, don't be messin with the Monkees. They were not even remotely in
>the
>same league.
Yes. They also never touched thier instruments or wrote a song. Much like
your hero, m&m. I guess they are brilliant geniuses in your book as well.
Though I think they were/are musical dunces, I would have to agree that the
finished product was light years ahead of m&m. How sad is that?
Harvey Gerst
Wrong. Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork were both well respected folk musicians
in L.A. before the Monkees. Michael is an excellent guitarist and Peter was
very proficient on guitar and banjo. By the time the series was about over,
they had become a pretty decent group, quite capable of playing all their songs
in front of a live audience.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Scott Dorsey
Agreed. So our list now consists of Mozart and the Beatles. I might
even put Sinatra and Goodman in there too. But the point is that it's
a short list compared with the sheer number of pop performers since
Mozart's era.
JnyVee.
... and arguing TASTE???? sheeshe. let's just Get To It adn argue
FAITH...) and so will sit back down.
jv
JnyVee.
AND those last albums were a HELL of a hoot to listen to as they were
really farting around on their own at Company Expense in Nice Studios.
Hardly brilliant but a lot more fun...
JnyVee.
between his 9/10ths and TANSTAFFL you;ve got a hell of a solid guide
through life if you start out with The Golden Rule thing as the leadoff
hitter.
Hank said
> >Mozart anyone?
Earl Musick
"JnyVee." wrote:
>
>
> then again there was Clapton at his best, Hendrix, Mountain, Johnny
> Winter, Shawn Phillips, Rory Gallagher...
>
> I feel better now...
Shawn Phillips, he's from the ol home town here. Very fine songwriter an
performer, He played here about a year ago in a local blues bar.
Peace!
Earl Musick
RockHouse Studio
http://www.reloadrecordcompany.com
http://www.mp3.com/EarlMusick
roc...@flash.net
If music ain't got an edge it's DULL
Harvey Gerst
It's also well known that Michael produced many of the Monkees' recording
sessions, and that Peter and Michael played on several of the albums. Michael
wrote and/or co-wrote several of their hits. Mickey learned drums well enough
to do a pretty credible job playing live, and David Jones played keyboards on
several songs.
JnyVee.
Now I have somebody to catch up on...
Doc Gorpon
>musicians
>in L.A. before the Monkees. Michael is an excellent guitarist and Peter was
>very proficient on guitar and banjo. By the time the series was about over,
>they had become a pretty decent group, quite capable of playing all their
>songs
>in front of a live audience.
>
Actually, according to the info that's out there.. even though those two
could play, they didn't on the records save for maybe a song or two up until
Headquarters. And though they did play some dates as a real band, they
apparently sounded nothing like the records.
Doc Gorpon
>really farting around on their own at Company Expense in Nice Studios.
>Hardly brilliant but a lot more fun...
>
My comparison was to the time when they were comercially successful which is
when they didn't play on their records. Thus the m&m analogy.
Doc Gorpon
As far as I know, they played on one song, maybe two, per album. I wouldn't
call that contributing very much. And being as they didn't sing on the albums
as much as David or Mickey, I would say that just about levels out the
involvement among them. Though there could be more of an inside story. I'm only
going by liner notes and biographies. I wasn't alive then and I wasn't present
at any of the sessions.
Harvey Gerst
And none of the Byrds played on their first record, except for Roger. So?
When I heard them live in Salt Lake City (for the end scenes of their "Head"
movie), they sounded very good to me. Michael was no Glenn Campbell, but he
played good solid guitar, and Peter took to bass like most guitar players do,
and Mickey sounded tight on drums. Davey was the weakest "musician" of the
group, but all his musical stage training made him a good lead singer and backup
singer. At least, that's my take on it. (I can't believe I'm here, defending
the Monkees.) I didn't like the show, the concept, or the group, but I liked
the people in the group. :-(
Doc Gorpon
What's your point? I wasn't making a comparison of the Byrds and M&M. Are you
asking for one? There are very few parrallels between the Byrds and the Monkees
in the regard that I was speaking of.
>took to bass like most guitar players do,
>and Mickey sounded tight on drums. Davey was the weakest "musician" of the
>group, but all his musical stage training made him a good lead singer and
>backup
>singer. At least, that's my take on it. (I can't believe I'm here,
>defending
>the Monkees.) I didn't like the show, the concept, or the group, but I liked
>the people in the group. :-(
Actually, I do like the Monkees. The one thing they did have was a great
stable of writers and musicians to play the songs. I also liked Mickey's voice
quite a bit. I was being a tad sarcastic when I made the comparison to m&m,
whom I don't like at all. If it makes everyone feel better, I'll retract my
Monkees comparison to m&m and change it to the Partridge Family and m&m. Let's
see someone defend thier validity!
Jim Gilliland
>
> I love the Monkeys
> too. I still have the single (first edition) of Daydream Believer. It was
> just before my time, but I stole it from my sister ;-)
Can we at least give a little credit to John Stewart? You have to start
with a great songwriter. (And I bet Harvey knows him, too.)
Harvey Gerst
Geoff Wood
geoff
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:97b48j$er5$1...@panix3.panix.com...
R Krizman
docg...@aol.com (Doc Gorpon) wrote:
I assume this is what you meant by "dickish sarcasm"?
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
>RKrizman wrote:
>>Hey now, don't be messin with the Monkees. They were not even remotely
>in
>>the
>>same league.
>
> Yes. They also never touched thier instruments or wrote a song. Much like
>your hero, m&m.
I just happen to like Eminem's work. As do many people, of all ages. I also
enjoy Stravinski, the Beatles, King Crimson, Lucinda Williams, Macy Gray and
Paul Revere and the Raiders. So what. Why do you have such an ax to grind?
>I guess they are brilliant geniuses in your book as well.
>Though I think they were/are musical dunces,
Yeah I like the Monkees. Great songwriting, who cares if they didn't write
the songs. They didn't play all their instruments, but they did sing, and
quite well. And it's their charisma. All in all they were much better than
any made-for -tv product had a right to be.
A couple years ago I had the pleasure of producing a pre-recording of them for
an appearance on the Miss USA pageant, minus Nesmith, and they sounded great.
More of the "real deal" than most people think.
>I would have to agree that
>the
>finished product was light years ahead of m&m. How >sad is that?
What's sad to me is your bitterness and intolerance. Is there any kind of
music that satisfies your incredibly high standard for listenability? Would it
be okay with you if other people enjoy other types of music that you may not
like, or does that make them "musical dunces" also?
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
R Krizman
docg...@aol.com (Doc Gorpon)
> My comparison was to the time when they were comercially successful which
>is
>when they didn't play on their records. Thus the m&m analogy.
I don't believe Dido played on her record either.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Bob Blank
Since when was an architect critcized for not hammering the nails on a
house? "Playing" is only one small element of the musical world. So is
skill, for that matter. if hit records were only made by musicians with
the best chops, then Yo Yo Ma would have a string of hit records.
However....
R Krizman
Yeah, this thread is all about people somehow trying to objectify or sanctify
their own taste so that it can be dictated to others.
It's all good.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Bob Blank
all they can say is "I like what I know or what I can appreciate". I
pity the poor musical talent that has to meet up with these folks who
have already prejudged their music due to the 'standards' that they have
set as 'good' or 'real'. Then again, this will of course mean that the
broader-minded among us will profit more from their ignorance of true
talent.
But then again, this is what separates the 'men from the boys' in the
music biz.
Bob Blank
Lesley Gore titles. Care to denigrate them NOW?
\
Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> Scott Owen <sko...@ufl.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should start rapping :)...but seriously, I don't think album sales
> >are very relevant when most of the people that purchased his album are
> >brainless, MTV watching, 13 year-olds that spend their allowance on whatever
> >Carson Daly tells them to.
>
> But this is the nature of the pop music industry. Anybody who thinks it was
> ever any different doesn't remember Leslie Gore or the 1910 Fruitgum Company.
> That's what pop music is about. This is not profound music that will last
> for posterity, this is the Menudo of a new generation. It's not supposed to
> be more than that.
> --scott
> (old white guy)
Doc Gorpon
>enjoy Stravinski, the Beatles, King Crimson, Lucinda Williams, Macy Gray and
>Paul Revere and the Raiders. So what. Why do you have such an ax to grind?
>
I think I've stated it quite clearly. You say he's great.. I say he's not. I
don't see what's so hard to understand.
>Yeah I like the Monkees.
So do I.
>Great songwriting, who cares if they didn't write
>the songs. They didn't play all their instruments,
Well, I sure don't care. However, I don't see anyone calling the Monkees
Brilliant or genius. If I did hear people referring to them in that tone, I
would have a problem.
>What's sad to me is your bitterness and intolerance.
You're making me laugh. Stop it.
>Is there any kind of
>music that satisfies your incredibly high standard for listenability?
My standards aren't that high. And I consider almost any type/genre of music
valid. And if m&m wants to play his shit, so be it. My standards of qualifying
someone as a musical "genius" are quite high. And as a musician myself, other
musicians have to work damn hard to deserve that kind of respect from me.
Needless to say, m&m doesn't have my respect. Does that mean I don't think
people have a right to listen to, or like his music? No. I don't know where
you're getting that. I'm simply saying that in technical terms of music, he's
not doing anything that hasn't already been done. So let's not go overboard
with his praise by calling him brilliant or genius or anything near that realm.
Doc Gorpon
Well somebody did.
Doc Gorpon
>
>Since when was an architect critcized for not hammering the nails on a
>house?
Well, here's the deal in that regard:
No one ever praised Elvis for being a great guitarist or drummer or
songwriter. Just his performance and vocal ability. Both of which were his, and
his alone.
What are we praising eminem for? He doesn't sing, write, produce, or play any
of his music. He simply speaks some words he's written. Maybe those words are
good, and maybe they are bad. That's not my point.
> "Playing" is only one small element of the musical world.
I wouldn't say it's "small", but I would say there are a number of equally
important things on a record. I don't think eminem is responsible for any of
those "other things" on his record.
> if hit records were only made by musicians with
>the best chops, then Yo Yo Ma would have a string of hit records.
>However....
>
>
I'm not talking about hit records. I'm talking about musically valid records.
Doc Gorpon
>>... and arguing TASTE???? sheeshe. let's just Get To It adn argue
>>FAITH...) and so will sit back down.
>
>Yeah, this thread is all about people somehow trying to objectify or sanctify
>their own taste so that it can be dictated to others.
>
>It's all good.
No it isn't. Yes, anyone has the right to like what they want. But to praise
m&m as a musical genius is like praising Vanilla Ice for his great harmonica
ability. It makes no sense.
Jim Gilliland
>
> Jim Gilliland <usemyl...@altavista.net> wrote:
>
> >Aux wrote:
> >>
> >> I love the Monkeys
> >> too. I still have the single (first edition) of Daydream Believer. It was
> >> just before my time, but I stole it from my sister ;-)
> >
> >Can we at least give a little credit to John Stewart? You have to start
> >with a great songwriter. (And I bet Harvey knows him, too.)
>
> Nope, not that I can recall.
Well, he seemed to be a part of that same basic West Coast folk music
crowd, so it was just a guess. He's been making interesting music for
several decades, and was a longtime member of the Kingston Trio. He
wrote Daydream Believer back in the mid-60s - a song good enough to
survive the Monkees rendition of it <g>.
Harvey Gerst
Whoa, that was the same John Stewart? I knew Nick Reynolds of the Kingston
Trio, and I met Dave Guard once or twice (after he started the Whisky Hill
Singers with Judy Henske), but I don't recall ever meeting John. I don't
remember seeing him with the crowd I hung out with. Always loved "Scotch And
Soda" by John Stewart.
Jim Gilliland
Yup, same one. When Dave Guard left the trio, John came in to replace
him (it just wasn't working as a duo <g>). But they were already past
their peak by then, the whole hootenanny thing was starting to fade, and
the Beatles would be along a year or so later. He's done some fine work
though I certainly haven't followed his career closely. Daydream
Believer appears on two or three of his albums.