Opinions on EQ: EAR 822, 825, Sontec, GML, Speck, DW Fearn, K&H, Fairman, Avalon etc.
Magnus
What a beautiful place this newsgroup is, have been doing searches in it on
many topics, but feel the need to post questions on EQs.
Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking, mixing,
and mastering. All-round you could say. I'm looking for an EQ that can
assist this. I don't have any mid-range cut, and this must definitely be in
the EQ I'm looking for.
The EQ doesn't need to be "what's going in is what's going out", but
whatever coloration must have a (subjectively) good sound, and to some
extent be "generally applicable".
All makes, analog types (valve or other), vintage/new and price ranges are
considered, the cheapest ones I've found are Speck ASC and APIs, the most
expensive the Avalon 2077 with the GML 9500 in its tail price-wise. Don't
know usual "street" prices though.
A plus is however if the unit will keep its value.
From the top of my head, here's some of the EQs I've dug up and am
considering (in no particular order):
EAR
Sontec
GML
Speck
DW Fearn
Klein & Hummel
Fairman
Avalon
Pultec
Tab Telefunken
API
Focusrite (315)
Lydkraft/Tubetech
Manley mid-range pultec (have the EQP1A already)
All comments are welcome.
Thanks!
Sincerely, Magnus.
hank alrich
> From the top of my head, here's some of the EQs I've dug up and am
> considering (in no particular order):
> EAR
> Sontec
> GML
> Speck
> DW Fearn
> Klein & Hummel
> Fairman
> Avalon
> Pultec
> Tab Telefunken
> API
> Focusrite (315)
> Lydkraft/Tubetech
> Manley mid-range pultec (have the EQP1A already)
> All comments are welcome.
Beautiful list, Magnus. I'd think the Millennia NSEQ-2 belongs there,
too. Reality is that only you are going to be able to assess the
suitability of any of those for your needs. Given what Speck ASCs cost,
I'd also think a pair of those could be valuable no matter what else you
bought.
I can say the NSEQ-2 does greatly for me (as do the ASCs), but I haven't
the experience of all those others to place it "competitively", even if
I was keen on that approach, all things EQ being so subjective.
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
LS1productions
considering (in no particular order): >>
I just recently went to a pal's studio and he had a customized Sontec eq there
that he had bought from a mastering engineer. I put a few mixes through it
was simply amazing how nicely I could reshape the mixes without adding crud. I
want one now. Check them out.
Steve Holt
matter what I do with them, they seem to make anything sound better. Lots
better, in fact. I'd also add the Lang PEQ2 to the list. And I'd second the
motion on the Manley EQP1-A.
Steve Holt
http://www.inner-music.com
"hank alrich" <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1f5w522.1e5...@209-162-27-147.thegrid.net...
Jay - atldigi
> Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking,
> mixing, and mastering.
> expensive the Avalon 2077 with the GML 9500 in its tail price-wise.
Unless you are doing all mastering, I'd say these two plus the Sontec
mastering model are not necessary. You pay a lot of extra money for
features that you don't specifically need in non-mastering applications.
All three of these companies have non mastering models that sound good
as well, but are considerable less expensive.
In your case, you have a pair of colored tube models alread, so I think
a discrete EQ is the best addition. GML 8200 might be the "classic"
choice, but a Millennia NSEQ-2 should be near the tio of the list too.
It gives you the option to have a clean tube path, and the choice of
tubes can influence if it has moderate color or just a touch, and you
get a very clean JFET path. This gives you the widest range combined
with the pallette of your other two. An Avalon 2055 or a Focurite
ISA-215 are other very popular choices. The 215 is not made anymore, so
you'll have to find one that is left over in stock somewhere, or find a
used one. One advantage with the 215 is that you get a pair of killer
mic pres as well. Things like the Fairman, Tubetech and Fearn, nice
though they may be, are somewhat redundant for you considering the
Manley and EAR you are currently using.
-Jay Frigoletto
www.promastering.com
Fletcher
> In article <B865DA4F.56D%no...@none.none>, Magnus wrote:
>
> > Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking,
> > mixing, and mastering.
>
> > expensive the Avalon 2077 with the GML 9500 in its tail price-wise.
>
> Unless you are doing all mastering, I'd say these two plus the Sontec
> mastering model are not necessary. You pay a lot of extra money for
> features that you don't specifically need in non-mastering applications.
> All three of these companies have non mastering models that sound good
> as well, but are considerable less expensive.
>
> In your case, you have a pair of colored tube models alread, so I think
> a discrete EQ is the best addition. GML 8200 might be the "classic"
> choice
The GML 9500 sounds quite a bit different than the 8200. It's quite a bit
sweeter... when asked why, Jeffrey down at GML explained to me that it had a
lot to do with the frequency response of the unit. Seems it goes from
nearly "DC to light", which reduces the minute amounts of phase distortion
that are actually audible in the 8200.
When you get into this neighborhood, most of the addresses are pretty
nice... some have a better view of the river, but it's still a hell of a
fine neighborhood. BTW, watch for the 9500 to shoot up like $2-3000+ plus
in the next few weeks... they just haven't been charging enough for them,
it's been sort of a losing proposition for GML to make them...
As for the Sontec stuff, it's certainly a classic tone we're all rather used
to hearing. Woe betide your ass should it happen to lose an amplifier...
could take a couple of years (if ever) to get it fixed. I wouldn't own one,
but to each their own.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
or playing the Dr. Laura of hum at:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit
Magnus
3C423E74...@mercenary.com:
> Jay - atldigi wrote:
>
>> In article <B865DA4F.56D%no...@none.none>, Magnus wrote:
>>
>>> Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking,
>>> mixing, and mastering.
>>
>>> expensive the Avalon 2077 with the GML 9500 in its tail price-wise.
>>
>> Unless you are doing all mastering, I'd say these two plus the Sontec
>> mastering model are not necessary. You pay a lot of extra money for
>> features that you don't specifically need in non-mastering applications.
>> All three of these companies have non mastering models that sound good
>> as well, but are considerable less expensive.
>>
>> In your case, you have a pair of colored tube models alread, so I think
>> a discrete EQ is the best addition. GML 8200 might be the "classic"
>> choice
>
> The GML 9500 sounds quite a bit different than the 8200. It's quite a bit
> sweeter... when asked why, Jeffrey down at GML explained to me that it had a
> lot to do with the frequency response of the unit. Seems it goes from
> nearly "DC to light", which reduces the minute amounts of phase distortion
> that are actually audible in the 8200.
Would be a ripoff if the only difference was detended pots, Manley charges
$250 or something for that extra. But the automobile industry works that
way, so you never know.
George please explain some of the design differences (in layman's terms),
and while you're at it, why your 9500 unit will keep its value? :-) Oh and,
how long has it been in production?
Jay, your point is good though, enough tubes already :-)
As Steve suggests, Neve's are good. There are also different remakes, such
as the Vintech x73 and the Brent Averill refurbished ones I seem to recall
you having.
The Millennia NSEQ-2 as Hank points out, seems to be a popular choice. Maybe
I'm old-fashioned but I have a red light going off whenever there are "many
features and multiple paths" in a single box. OK, I know I'm old-fashioned,
and should merely listen to the thing. Excellent advise. (Hank, great beard!
I grew a shorter 4 inch beard some years back, took 6 months, funny how it
started to slow down anywhere except under my jaw. Yes I took the liberty of
looking you guys up, easier to judge people's advise with background
knowledge.)
Likewise the Speck ASCs. They seem such a good deal comparatively to the
rest of that market. A very nice gentleman who makes them.
> When you get into this neighborhood, most of the addresses are pretty
> nice... some have a better view of the river, but it's still a hell of a
> fine neighborhood. BTW, watch for the 9500 to shoot up like $2-3000+ plus
> in the next few weeks... they just haven't been charging enough for them,
> it's been sort of a losing proposition for GML to make them...
What's the typical going rate for a GML 9500 plus 2xPSU? And what's a
typical used price?
I've read about a Cello eq and Harmonia Mundi Acustica. The latter appears
to be an old digital. From the information I read, they appear to be even
higher end than GML, Sontec, Avalon. What's the story?
> As for the Sontec stuff, it's certainly a classic tone we're all rather used
> to hearing. Woe betide your ass should it happen to lose an amplifier...
> could take a couple of years (if ever) to get it fixed. I wouldn't own one,
> but to each their own.
Good point. What's the story about Sontec? It was Burgess who continued the
company? When did it close? And any other info you might feel like sharing
..
LS1productions: I agree on the crud thing. I find a lot of the quality in
"highend" being the lack of crud added to the signal rather than the good
stuff added. Not saying that I want pristine and transparent sounding units,
but somehow "colour" is secondary, or is that merely controlled or good
crud?! :-)
You have all been most helpful, absolutely. Very joyful reading.
Thanks!
Sincerely, Magnus.
Jay - atldigi
wrote:
> and Harmonia Mundi Acustica. The latter
> appears to be an old digital. From the information I read, they appear
> to be even higher end than GML, Sontec, Avalon. What's the story?
That later evolved into the Weiss 102 which has since ben replaced with
Daniel Weiss's Gambit series, including the EQ-1 and DS-2. An EQ-1 MKII
with a linear phase option (the highest end rig Weiss makes, with
"Double Sampling" 96K, linear phase option, and MS EQ) is probably
around $7500 (maybe $6K if you lose the linear phas option). If digital
is an option for you, this thing is amazing. It's popular in mastering
circles (got one myself, but without the options) and has seven bands.
Often it is used as a 5 band with 2 filters, but all seven bands are
fully featured if you don't want to use 2 as high and low pass filters.
It is AES I/O and has no AD or DA converters, so if you want to use it
analog, you'd need to add a stereo unit (maybe a stereo AD/DA blue
series from d.b. technologies, or even an Apogee PSX if you want to save
a couple bucks). This is an expensive rig, but one hell of a ride. If
the word "digital" doesn't scare you, and at this level it shouldn't,
then the Weiss should definitely be on the list.
-Jay Frigoletto
www.promastering.com
Daniel Weiss
Jay - atldigi <atl...@aol.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
atldigi-A8512F...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Thanks, Jay, for your endorsement. Here is some more information:
The Harmonia Mundi Acustica (HMA) has always been the Weiss 102, it was only
when we split from HMA that we had to change the name of the system. HMA was
responsible for the marketing of our products.
The EQ1-LP (linear phase type) is about $5900, the EQ1-MK2 (no linear phase
option) about $4700. Prices are ex works Switzerland, i.e. do not include
freight, customs or VAT.
Daniel
WEISS ENGINEERING LTD. - Professional and High-End Digital Audio Products
Florastrasse 42 8610 Uster Switzerland
phone: +41 1 940 20 06, fax: +41 1 940 22 14
email: we...@weiss.ch
web: http://www.weiss.ch
http://www.weiss-highend.com
Jay - atldigi
<we...@weiss.ch> wrote:
> The EQ1-LP (linear phase type) is about $5900, the EQ1-MK2 (no linear
> phase
> option) about $4700. Prices are ex works Switzerland, i.e. do not include
> freight, customs or VAT.
Better prices than I had remembered. It's like getting LP for free! <g>
But seriously, great stuff, and worth every penny. I'm saving up for
more.
-Jay Frigoletto
www.promastering.com
mg...@earthlink.net
atldigi <atl...@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <B865DA4F.56D%no...@none.none>, Magnus wrote:
>
> > Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking,
> > mixing, and mastering.
>
> > expensive the Avalon 2077 with the GML 9500 in its tail price-wise.
>
> Unless you are doing all mastering, I'd say these two plus the Sontec
> mastering model are not necessary. You pay a lot of extra money for
> features that you don't specifically need in non-mastering applications.
> All three of these companies have non mastering models that sound good
> as well, but are considerable less expensive.
>
> In your case, you have a pair of colored tube models alread, so I think
> a discrete EQ is the best addition.
SNIP!
> -Jay Frigoletto
> www.promastering.com
Well Jay, I'm gonna have to lend you some stuff so you can speak from
experience on this issue. Then we can have a debate as to what coloration
means.
Dan
--
"...nothing is real."
Jay - atldigi
<mgod-22010...@pool0599.cvx23-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net>,
mg...@earthlink.net wrote:
>> In article <B865DA4F.56D%no...@none.none>, Magnus wrote:
>>
>>> Currently I'm using equipment from Manley and EAR, doing tracking,
>>> mixing, and mastering.
>>
>> In your case, you have a pair of colored tube models alread, so I
>> think a discrete EQ is the best addition.
>
> Well Jay, I'm gonna have to lend you some stuff so you can speak from
> experience on this issue. Then we can have a debate as to what coloration
> means.
>
> Dan
This is true. I've been looking forward to it for a while. The studio is
(finally!) just about ready so let's set up a time. I used the one over
at Sony before their demise and it seemed to have some color, but I
can't say that I've tested it extensively. I'd like to hear the
compressor too while we're at it.
But still, in this guy's case, I don't think another EAR is the answer...
(cc: r.a.p.&email)
-Jay Frigoletto
www.promastering.com
Magnus
atldigi-A5CF06...@news1.news.adelphia.net:
So far I've narrowed it down to GML 9500 or Fairman TMEQ. While I'm
absolutely sure that the EAR EQs are top-notch, I'm not sure they're exactly
what I'm looking for right now.
Regarding digital ... My problem with digital is not sound related - I use
DAWs all the time - it's inflation-related.
I considered the coloured vs. not-so-coloured issue a great deal since my
last posting, and decided that I would not dismiss an EQ because it has a
very distinct colour - or lack thereof. Even though I plan to move more and
more into mastering, a distinct colour doesn't pose a problem with the
material I'm working with. In this line of thinking, whether it be a GML,
Fairman, or Weiss doesn't matter sound-wise to me presently. However, seeing
that all my digital purchases have become so cheap so quickly, I'm trying to
steer clear of digital whenever possible (ADDA and actual DAW are of course
.. digital).
Thanks Daniel for the info on Harmonia Mundi Acustica and Weiss.
BTW: Can you get the EAR660 modded to have stepped pots on gain and
AC-threshold?
Thanks.
Sincerely, Magnus.
mg...@earthlink.net
> d. 22/01/02 20:52 skrev Jay - atldigi på atl...@aol.com i artiklen
> atldigi-A5CF06...@news1.news.adelphia.net:
>
> So far I've narrowed it down to GML 9500 or Fairman TMEQ. While I'm
> absolutely sure that the EAR EQs are top-notch, I'm not sure they're exactly
> what I'm looking for right now.
>
> Regarding digital ... My problem with digital is not sound related - I use
> DAWs all the time - it's inflation-related.
>
> I considered the coloured vs. not-so-coloured issue a great deal since my
> last posting, and decided that I would not dismiss an EQ because it has a
> very distinct colour - or lack thereof. Even though I plan to move more and
> more into mastering, a distinct colour doesn't pose a problem with the
> material I'm working with. In this line of thinking, whether it be a GML,
> Fairman, or Weiss doesn't matter sound-wise to me presently. However, seeing
> that all my digital purchases have become so cheap so quickly, I'm trying to
> steer clear of digital whenever possible (ADDA and actual DAW are of course
> .. digital).
>
> Thanks Daniel for the info on Harmonia Mundi Acustica and Weiss.
>
> BTW: Can you get the EAR660 modded to have stepped pots on gain and
> AC-threshold?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sincerely, Magnus.
Up until now, Tim has refused to do stepped controls for a number of very
practical reasons. Sony NYC requested an 825Q and offered to pay as much
extra as Tim wanted to have stepped level controls. So for an additional
$2k, they got it. It helped that David Smith, the head of the studio, is a
very experienced guy who really gets what EAR gear is about and has been
able to establish a good dialogue with Tim. They have just inquired about
another set of 660s for their mastering rooms with input and AC threshold
stepped, and Tim doesn't seem to be against it this time, because he's
able to get across to David just what they'll be giving up to get that.
Besides the extra labor involved, one 660 once built takes one entire day
to calibrate. The biggest part of this calibration is tube selection. My
first pair of 660s, bought in '96, is still using its original tubes and
they are still perfect. But eventually, they will start to change. And
it'll be very hard to keep them tracking perfectly in stereo link without
the complete adjustability that stepped controls would prevent.
Regarding coloration, as I wrote to Jay privately, I believe that a
properly designed tube circuit, of which you will find very few, gets any
coloration it has far more from transformers than from that fact that it
uses tubes. For example, connect up a Pultec and you will hear it - no
matter that you haven't even switched in the EQ circuit. For me, I like
what this does to my bass, but not to anything else. I like a bass guitar
to be smeared. So a Pultec in line works, even without EQ. But I'd rather
buy one of David Bock's old Pushtecs for a fraction of the Pultec price
since he did such a good job of reproducing the sound of Pultec
transformers.
But connect up an EAR 822Q program eq or 823MQ mid-eq, and you won't hear
it, because Tim's handwound transformers are extremely wide band and
virtually colorless. Fletcher and David Bock can confirm this. If you're
in the LA area I can provide you with an 823MQ to try.
But the variation in how people regard EQ is quite something. Joe Gastwirt
at Ocean View Digital uses a vastly modified Sontec and a stock pair of
EAR 822Qs (as well as stock 660s). When the guys he trained who were the
mastering engineers at Sony LA tried the 825Q they flipped over it. He
insisted that they try the 822s. But after trying them they insisted that
the 825Q was what they needed and bought one. But whereas Sony NYC had to
have stepped controls, at whatever price, Sony LA thought that was
completely unneccesary.
Go figure.
DS
--
"...nothing is real."
Jay - atldigi
<mgod-24010...@pool0159.cvx23-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net>,
mg...@earthlink.net wrote:
> Regarding coloration, as I wrote to Jay privately, I believe that a
> properly designed tube circuit, of which you will find very few, gets any
> coloration it has far more from transformers than from that fact that it
> uses tubes. For example, connect up a Pultec and you will hear it - no
> matter that you haven't even switched in the EQ circuit. For me, I like
> what this does to my bass, but not to anything else. I like a bass guitar
> to be smeared. So a Pultec in line works, even without EQ. But I'd rather
> buy one of David Bock's old Pushtecs for a fraction of the Pultec price
> since he did such a good job of reproducing the sound of Pultec
> transformers.
I've been on record for years saying this sort of thing, so I again will
agree. On the first point, tubes don't have to be colored. Fred
Forsell's work is another good example of this. Tubes do certain things
better than solid state, and solid state has certain advantages over
tubes. Depending on your design goals and experience, one or the other
can do a wonderful job, and be either quite transparent, or quite
colored. As for the color of transformers, one of the times this was
really driven home was when listening to older Neuman mics and newer
transformerles tube designs. The classic Neumann sound was missing, tube
or no tube. The tranformer was the suspected culprit. Transformers can
make a huge difference, and add a lot of pleasant color if that's what
you desire and design for.
As for the EARs, I've only played around with the one at Sony Mastering
LA/Santa Monica on a couple tracks (I worked part time out of this room
for a while during the construction of my new room and before Sony's
closing). I have a first impression, but can't draw any conclusions for
myself until DS and I get together and I can really give it a true road
test.
-Jay Frigoletto
www.promastering.com
mg...@earthlink.net
atldigi <atl...@aol.com> wrote:
There is another huuuuuge reason for this sound change in the new Neumanns
- its mechanical, and I aint talkin'. But anybody can figure it out. And
it'll show what job justification and the drive to perfection accomplish
for the worse.
> As for the EARs, I've only played around with the one at Sony Mastering
> LA/Santa Monica on a couple tracks (I worked part time out of this room
> for a while during the construction of my new room and before Sony's
> closing). I have a first impression, but can't draw any conclusions for
> myself until DS and I get together and I can really give it a true road
> test.
>
> -Jay Frigoletto
Your call.