797 Audio C12 Lookalike.
goober
I saw the web site and smiled, but it keeps popping into my mind..... I
wonder what it sounds like?
http://www.797audio.com/html/product1.htm
Perhaps what we buy as 'brand names' are often really rebadged 797 mics? The
website is a little coy, but digital pro-sounds claims '797 Audio has been
making microphones for 50 years, some of them for German companies.'. So why
not buy direct from the source?
Brad Lunde
While I don't know it as an absolute fact, The German company they refer to is
probably BPM, a company that got in a fair amount of trouble in Germany for
copying Neumann a little too closely a few years ago, and claimed to building
mics in Germany, but was really a 797 customer (so the inside story goes).
797 is quite good at visual/cosmetic copies, such as the Brauner cosmetic
copies under the Studio Projects name and many many other similar efforts. But
the inside??? A very different story.
Neumann, Micro Tec Geffell, Brauner ....nothing Chinese that I know of there.
Any claim of "german companies" could mean a german music store (which they do
as "private label" for almost anyone who wants to buy a couple of hundred),
could mean a metal part they supply to a real mic company (like a mic body),
could mean a company located elseswhere with a german name.
I am saddened to see people enthralled by the marketing hype, think they are
getting a $2000 "studio mic" for a heretofore unheard of price of $150, when
what they are really getting is a $50 mic that LOOKS like a $2000 studio mic at
a "triple your money" 150% margin for the dealer. If a person is on a budget,
it makes sense to consider. If a person wants something enduring, they are
kidding themselves.
From my perspective, the company that has done the best at lowering cost
without lowering quality to the absurd level is Audio Technica. AT4030 & 4050
are still great buys and wonderful mics.
Building mics is about art, about details, experience and skill, about
subtleties that takes years to learn, subtleties the customer may not discover
for 5 to 10 years, but will make the investment a real investment, enduring and
productive. Most of all, its about sound, sound that can sell a record or a
vocal.
Brad Lunde
TransAmerica Audio Group, Inc
http://www.transaudiogroup.com
702-365-5155 Voice, 702-365-5145 Fax
US sales for AEA, API, Brauner, Drawmer, FMR, Soundelux & SoundField
Goober
"Brad Lunde" <tran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608145958...@ng-mh1.aol.com...
No, that was foolish of me.
But Joe meek, Rode, MXL etc etc....
>
>
> Any claim of "german companies" could mean a german music store (which
they do
> as "private label" for almost anyone who wants to buy a couple of
hundred),
> could mean a metal part they supply to a real mic company (like a mic
body),
> could mean a company located elseswhere with a german name.
>
> I am saddened to see people enthralled by the marketing hype, think they
are
> getting a $2000 "studio mic" for a heretofore unheard of price of $150,
when
> what they are really getting is a $50 mic that LOOKS like a $2000 studio
mic at
> a "triple your money" 150% margin for the dealer. If a person is on a
budget,
> it makes sense to consider. If a person wants something enduring, they are
> kidding themselves.
> From my perspective, the company that has done the best at lowering cost
> without lowering quality to the absurd level is Audio Technica. AT4030 &
4050
> are still great buys and wonderful mics.
Yes, but I already have two 4033s!
>
> Building mics is about art, about details, experience and skill, about
> subtleties that takes years to learn, subtleties the customer may not
discover
> for 5 to 10 years, but will make the investment a real investment,
enduring and
> productive. Most of all, its about sound, sound that can sell a record or
a
> vocal.
Thanks for the reply, that clarifies the situation.
I know very well that these mics are, to look at, the cheapest of copies,
but that is not what attracted me about them.
My question was in whether a mic (the cr998) had an interesting sound to it.
My vision was of a slightly bandwidth restricted, sound with a little
harmonic distortion. If I get a chance to hear it my illusions will perhaps
be shatterd, but I remember the mistrust of the russian mics a few years
ago, often justified, but a few (Octava ribbons, lomo heads and mc012s)
sounded good to me!
Having a tube does not a good mic make, I personally have built some of the
worst sounding tube equipment imaginable, but what I'm looking for is
something with a bit of character to add to my collection of dodgy mics.
Scott Dorsey
goober <g.pr...@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>Anyone tried this? Its a blatent copy of an AKG C12.
>I saw the web site and smiled, but it keeps popping into my mind..... I
>wonder what it sounds like?
>
>http://www.797audio.com/html/product1.htm
It sounds like all the other 797 with U87 clone capsules.
>Perhaps what we buy as 'brand names' are often really rebadged 797 mics? The
>website is a little coy, but digital pro-sounds claims '797 Audio has been
>making microphones for 50 years, some of them for German companies.'. So why
>not buy direct from the source?
The vast majority of cheap large diaphragm mikes are either from 797 or
the Shanghai factory.
I suppose you could buy directly, but you'd get a bunch of cheap mikes with
U87 clone capsules.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Luke Kaven
capsules and electronics are made in Germany. They had been a 797 customer,
but found the quality inadequate (capsules inconsistent, power supplies
dangerous, and electronics badly assembled). For a time, they worked with
797 to make modifications, but found that 797 was passing BPM's proprietary
modifications along to other 797 customers behind BPM's back. The
unanswered question is whether or not BPM's former US distributor was in
complicity. BPM and PMI parted company just when PMI began bringing in
Studio Projects directly from 797. I'd still like to know: were the Studio
Projects mics fashioned from modifications originally suggested by Udo at
BPM?
By the way, the BPM TB95 has been a pretty good mic. I have no complaints.
Brad Lunde <tran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608145958...@ng-mh1.aol.com...
> >Anyone tried this? Its a blatent copy of an AKG C12.
> >I saw the web site and smiled, but it keeps popping into my mind..... I
> >wonder what it sounds like?
[...]
Fletcher
It's about as close to a C-12 as one of those nice "Rolex" watches you can buy
on the streets of New York City of $15-.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
hank alrich
> goober wrote:
> > Anyone tried this? Its a blatent copy of an AKG C12.
> It's about as close to a C-12 as one of those nice "Rolex" watches you can buy
> on the streets of New York City of $15-.
So, for almost nothing you get almost something. Hey, now, ain't
progress amazing.
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
EveAnna Manley
"Luke Kaven" <ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> wrote in message
news:9fu9jo$6ja$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu...
> BPM does have assembly done in Beijing, as well as metalwork. But their
> capsules and electronics are made in Germany. They had been a 797
customer,
> but found the quality inadequate (capsules inconsistent, power supplies
> dangerous, and electronics badly assembled). For a time, they worked with
> 797 to make modifications, but found that 797 was passing BPM's
proprietary
> modifications along to other 797 customers behind BPM's back.
Gee that's what happened to us with the Langevin CR3A which used to be built
entirely by yet another chinese copy factory. We started importing the CR3A
completely assembled in 1990, well before the current flood of chinese mics.
For several years we suffered through badly assembled units and plenty of
rework until we had enough and told the chinese to just concentrate on the
metalwork and the capsule (which we have always had good "joss" with...) and
forget about soldering that we would redo the boards and procede with
fabricating them and soldering them in ChinO, not ChinA. (So much for all
the labor $aving... quality first...)
So with our new PCB layouts completely made in our ChinO factory we
mistakingly proudly showed our chinese mic factory rep all our improvements,
and yeah, sure enough, presto, next thing I see a chinese copy of my brand
new boards in "another" brand mic, right accross the isle from my booth at
European AES! Needless to say, we do not allow a certain chinese mic factory
rep inside our factory anymore... live and learn.
All the same, the chinese mic factory rep recently came through with a new
non-neumann-looking housing for us and much improved suspension and plenty
nicer carrying case which we're busy laying up new PCB's for yet again. It's
in our new catalog and is called the Langevin CR-2001. All the metalwork,
cases, suspensions and capsules are here at the factory in ChinO, just
waiting for us to build and assemble the PCB's... Still at a friendly price,
but no not as friendly as some of the stuff out there that never smells a QC
tech in USA or Germany, or....?
My cost of raw parts is higher than the street price of some of those
things... what to do....
Harvey, kudos on your chinese mic report (with pictures, no less!) on George
Massenburg's EQ forum
at: http://www.musicplayer.com/
Most interesting!
--
Cheers, EveAnna Manley, President
Manley Laboratories, Inc. 13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino, CA. 91710
Tel: (909) 627-4256 Fax: (909) 628-2482
<http://www.manleylabs.com>
reply to:
<mailto:ema...@manleylabs.com>
Harvey Gerst
>Harvey, kudos on your chinese mic report (with pictures, no less!) on George
>Massenburg's EQ forum
blush Awww, gee (looking down, kicking some dirt clods), thanks, Ma'am.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Keith Blackwell
EM| Harvey, kudos on your chinese mic report (with pictures, no less!) on George
EM| Massenburg's EQ forum
EM| at: http://www.musicplayer.com/
And thank you for mentioning it, else I wouldn't have seen it.
The pictures were very good, Harvey. For the rest of you, find it at
http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001055.html
--
Keith W. Blackwell
** If sending email, please edit the return address (remove "NO.UCE.PLEASE.").
** My employer has nothing to do with this posting.
Chris G.
That was very interesting. I've been using the V-67G quite a bit lately and
really enjoying it alot. I'm not sure if I'll spring for a C1 if they sound
too similar as I have a preferance for dark mics. Although waz his name,
(Teller or something like that) claims that it sounds better then a Neumann
TLM-103. I dunno about that. What do you think Harvey? I don't own a
TLM-103, but from the brief A/B comaprisons I've done between the TLM-103
and the V-67, I liked the TLM-103 a little better. I thought it had a
darker, smoother sound. But then again I'm partial to dark sounding mics.
I would be interested to know how you think the C1 mic compares to the
TLM-103. My guess is that perhaps neither is better...just different
sounding? Two different brushes for different tasks perhaps?
It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
Chris G.
Harvey Gerst <har...@ITRstudio.com> wrote in message
news:53AE4B036C3531F4.0335A6D3...@lp.airnews.net...
Harvey Gerst
>Just got finished reading your reviews and those of others on the EQ forum.
>That was very interesting. I've been using the V-67G quite a bit lately and
>really enjoying it alot. I'm not sure if I'll spring for a C1 if they sound
>too similar as I have a preferance for dark mics. Although waz his name,
>(Teller or something like that) claims that it sounds better then a Neumann
>TLM-103. I dunno about that. What do you think Harvey? I don't own a
>TLM-103, but from the brief A/B comaprisons I've done between the TLM-103
>and the V-67, I liked the TLM-103 a little better. I thought it had a
>darker, smoother sound. But then again I'm partial to dark sounding mics.
>I would be interested to know how you think the C1 mic compares to the
>TLM-103. My guess is that perhaps neither is better...just different
>sounding? Two different brushes for different tasks perhaps?
>It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
Chris,
I think teller claimed it sounded better than a Neumann U-87. I think
the C1 is similar to the V67, slightly depressed (about 1 dB) from
around 600Hz to 1kHz, about 2 dB more output, and about 2 dB quieter.
Both are very different than the 103, which I would never get rid of.
As far as better, it's really more about flavors rather than trying to
quantify in terms of good, better, or best.
Mike Rivers
EveAnna Manley <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Harvey, kudos on your chinese mic report (with pictures, no less!) on
> George Massenburg's EQ forum at: http://www.musicplayer.com/
Geez, is Harvey whoring his mic reports again? I saw one on
recording.org.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Harvey Gerst
>
>EveAnna Manley <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Harvey, kudos on your chinese mic report (with pictures, no less!) on
>> George Massenburg's EQ forum at: http://www.musicplayer.com/
>
>Geez, is Harvey whoring his mic reports again? I saw one on
>recording.org.
Nah, Each of those three forums asked about the Studio Project mics,
before I got involved with them, so I uploaded the same thing to all
three forums (besides I get a dime for every download). Yeah, right.
Actually, I posted them to GM's forum, hoping to get Klaus to comment on
them, and on recording.org for Stephen Paul to take a look.
I originally posted the report on Homerecording.com, since most of those
posters are new to recording and may have never seen the inside of a
condenser mic up close.
Alan Hyatt
We did import BPM a couple of years ago, and the capsules were not made in
Germany, and neither was the power supplies, they were all done by 797. I
toured the 797 factory and they were kind enough to parade a whole lot of
brand name mics they make for other manufacturers. Udo can say what ever he
wishes to say, but since he lied to me about the origin of BPM mics in the
first place, and refused to let me visit his facility, I would not believe
anything he said anymore.
The Studio Projects mics we are now doing are not fashioned from any design
done by Udo. The quality we get is excellent, the consistency of the
capsules are spot on,
and the electronics are very well assembled.
While many Chinese manufacturers do copy "artistic designs", this is
something that is widely accepted in China. While we may dislike what they
and other cultures are doing, there is many things Americans do they don't
like. While I prefer to stay out of the political issue, there is
absolutely no violations of infringement of any kind by Studio Projects.
I hope this clears up some of the misinformation about BPM and PMI Audio
Group with regard to Studio Projects. We are doing our own thing with 797
and do not offer for sale any microphone in their catalog, nor will we.
At the Amsterdam show, I spoke with EveAnna Manley. She told me she is using
Chinese capsules on one of her microphones and is very pleased with the
quality.
The only thing we did was to put 797's name on our mic along with ours and
laid claim to what we are doing right up front instead of hiding from the
truth, which is more than I can say for a bunch of other brands. In doing
so, 797 have taken a personal interest in making sure the quality and
consistency is very good.
Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
Studio Projects
23773 Madison Street
Torrance, CA 90505
voice: 310.373.9129
toll free: 877.563.6335
fax: 310.373.4714
www.studioprojectsusa.com
"Luke Kaven" <ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> wrote in message
news:9fu9jo$6ja$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu...
Dindae Sheena
--
喊`昂,,,,喊`昂
Dindae Sheena
Oasis Studios
YYYD Productions
Beijing, China
喊`昂,,,,喊`昂
"Alan Hyatt" <amhs...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9g6j6d$c6r$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
akammen
amhs...@mindspring.com wrote on 6/12/01 9:32 PM:
> Since my company name was mentioned, I guess it's fair for me to respond.
>
clip
>
> While many Chinese manufacturers do copy "artistic designs", this is
> something that is widely accepted in China. While we may dislike what they
> and other cultures are doing, there is many things Americans do they don't
> like. While I prefer to stay out of the political issue, there is
> absolutely no violations of infringement of any kind by Studio Projects.
>
> I hope this clears up some of the misinformation about BPM and PMI Audio
Ahhh. Solid evidence that one's sense of ethics and personal political
convictions need not conflict with one's business interests.
Fletcher
> While many Chinese manufacturers do copy "artistic designs", this is
> something that is widely accepted in China. While we may dislike what they
> and other cultures are doing, there is many things Americans do they don't
> like. While I prefer to stay out of the political issue, there is
> absolutely no violations of infringement of any kind by Studio Projects.
>
Seeing as you brought it up... while it may be "widely accepted" in China to
copy the cosmetic design of another's product, it's not so "widely accepted"
here in the western world. While there are many things that Americans do that
they may not care for, at least we don't do them in their backyard...last I
heard we were doing things they didn't care for 'over international waters'.
Let's face it, if the moron with the 'MIG' had any kind of proper training or
commitment to detail, he'd still be alive, and 28 of our people wouldn't have
been held hostage. But they gave the dumb bastard a piece of machinery he was
incapable of handling, just another example of shoddy workmanship, and piss poor
training from the land of state sanctioned music/intellectual property piracy.
Hey, they're stealing Madonna's music, and 'Quickbooks' software, why not rip
Dirk's cosmetic. Same shit right?
Sorry, but the whole world is political, I for one have a difficult time
separating the 'politics of politics' from the 'politics of my checkbook'. Nor
can you "stay out of the political issue" as you are the front man for the
blatant cosmetic rip off (not to mention the sonic characteristics imparted by
the grill assembly of a microphone) of another respected, albeit smaller,
manufacturer. There may be "no violation of infringement of any kind by Studio
Projects", but there sure as hell is a distinct 'ethical infringement' by PMI.
At least in my twisted little mind.
Here in the scenic western world [Yippee-I-O motherfuckin' kay-ay] I'm not sure
if it's 'flattery' to have copied the cosmetic of the Brauner VM-1, or if there
is something more sinister involved, like using their hard work and excellent
reputation to hawk the Studio Projects stuff [BTW, I'm curious...if you order 6
you get eggroll?...how about 'fortune cookie'?].
Somehow, I find any microphone that comes to market "sharing" the cosmetic of a
microphone currently in production, a microphone made in a nice little 'mom and
pop' kind of shop, abhorrent. If that microphone were made in New Jersey I
would still find it absolutely abhorrent, this isn't a "racial" thing, this is
an "ethics" [or lack thereof] thing. The "racial humor" is only because it's
cheap and easy...sort of like ripping the cosmetic of a small, yet respected
brand.
From the 'price point' it is obvious that you're going to sell a far greater
number of the 'Studio Projects' microphones than 'Brauner' will sell "VM-1"s
[and VM-1 KHE's, which though they have a different grill material, from a
distance look essentially the same], I'm sure you already have every
"Guitar-Mart" and discount whore in the country lined up like lemmings to
distribute the stuff, and I certainly wish you the best of luck with that, but
why go that extra yard to do damage to a small shop. Was that really necessary?
Even if the microphone sounded *better* than a TLM-103, I wouldn't piss on it if
it were on fire. As you may have noticed, our firm tries to represent small
"boutique" manufacturers who make excellent product with pride and
craftsmanship. By copying the cosmetic of the Brauner Microphones, you are
doing damage to the Brauner shop. I don't know if this was your intention, and
this was done with malice aforethought, or ignorance of the Brauner cosmetic
(that's called benefit of the doubt...but I doubt it was ignorance).
Obviously, you had a choice in that regard, and chose the look of the Brauner.
I just think it's a really low and 7/8th's a chicken shit move...but who cares,
we're a piss-ant store in an overcrowded market...and there are hundreds of
thousands of Guitar-Mart saps out there lining up like lambs at the slaughter to
grab these things. So, are you going to go for the Red Ferrari, or the Yellow
Lotus? Somehow I think you might look better in the Lotus, given the situation
and derivation of the wheel barrows full of 'borrowed cosmetic' cash.
With "copying" the look of a Neumann at least there are a lot of Neumann's out
there, and it's been an established brand for damn near 3/4's of a century,
where you will not be inflicting damage on a guy with a small shop just trying
to feed his family. Then again, Neumann having been around for a while, and
bankrolled by Sennheiser, probably have kind of deep pockets and could afford a
protracted law suit, and chances are *way* better than even that Dirk Brauner
can not afford such a suit.
There are so many cosmetic options you could have chosen for this project, I
really think it's a punch below the belt to have gone after Brauner with your
cosmetic. Why not go after 'Lawson'? Or is that next on the list? Maybe
'Korby' to follow? Or perhaps some of the cooler 'Altec' or 'RCA' cosmetic
designs? Gee, how about something that looks like a C-12? That hasn't been
done before (not).
At least the people that have come out with their versions of "a discontinued
classic microphone" waited for it to be 'discontinued' for 30+ years before they
did a 're-release', they also attempted to copy far more than just the cosmetic.
Mark Plancke
>> I hope this clears up some of the misinformation about BPM and PMI Audio
>
>
>Ahhh. Solid evidence that one's sense of ethics and personal political
>convictions need not conflict with one's business interests.
Yeah, wasn't it Heir Berhinger that said he didn't violate any
copyrights as well?
Listen, you guys go and support anyone you like. To me these mics
are trash and will never have a place in my collection, consistency my
ass. The market they are selling to has no concern about consistency,
all they care about is a microphone that "sounds like a Neumann" for
$300.
I will continue to support the companies that have spent considerable
resources on innovation and continue to spend money to push the
envelope, frankly they deserve the support.
Mark Plancke
SOUNDTECH RECORDING STUDIOS
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
http://SoundTechRecording.com
"You can't learn to engineer or eat pussy from a book. You can get
the basic idea, but until you dive into it face first and make a
few mistakes, you're not going to get the hang of it." - Fletcher
Mark Plancke
>At least the people that have come out with their versions of "a discontinued
>classic microphone" waited for it to be 'discontinued' for 30+ years before they
>did a 're-release', they also attempted to copy far more than just the cosmetic.
Welcome to the age of zero copyright infringements and zero ethics.
BPM-news
We had to replace almost all ever sold microphones of the beginning. The
capsules started to fail after a very short time, the transformers blow up
valves were not working etc.
We did our own design of PCB boards and power supplies, as they were so
badly designed that they were extremely dangerous to use. I don't know from
where Alan "Meekman" has his information's, but we never refused to let him
visit our facilities in Berlin and we surely don't get any stuff from this
factory no more. We had to send them most of the parts used in our
microphones and, of course, found them back in other companies products.
Also I have to say, that the insult, BPM was just buying mikes from 797 and
put our name on, it isn't true. For everyone who's interested, I can proof
that the original designs of PCB boards and the new power supplies as well
as all the modifications which were necessary to get a well working mike and
not failing the CE veryfications were done by BPM. All originals from 797
are stored and sealed by German officials as evidence for what they were
looking like when we received them.
I hope that this stupid discussion will have an end and all the customers
will buy their microphones acording to the sound quality and not for their
country of origin.
Udo Bekemeier
BPM
"EveAnna Manley" <van...@ix.netcom.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9g598c$9su$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
akammen
Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com wrote on 6/13/01 11:00 AM:
Umm, I was being *sarcastic*, Mark.
You know, it's really hard to be sarcastic *and* keep the internet
emoticon-free.
Alan
EveAnna Manley
chronological order (I think) on the page below and tell us who copied who?
http://www.manleylabs.com/mics.html
--
Cheers, EveAnna Manley, President
Manley Laboratories, Inc. 13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino, CA. 91710
Tel: (909) 627-4256 Fax: (909) 628-2482
<http://www.manleylabs.com>
reply to:
<mailto:ema...@manleylabs.com>
"Fletcher" <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote in message
news:3B2766FF...@mercenary.com...
JnyVee
<Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com> wrote:
> Welcome to the age of zero copyright infringements and zero ethics.
so when's somebody going to copy the Guild Rotoverb?
Maybe folks could take a page from THAT book...
(The Guild Rotoverb was a unique guitar stompbox the size of a toaster
and shaped like something out of the Jetson's bathroom that did a nice
2-speed Leslie effect. It ran on 115vac and its main chassis was a
steel tub that had the guts mounted inside upside down, then filled to
the brim with a substance previously unknown on Earth... Impervium
Green ... a mighty, opaque and impenetrable epoxy that completely
sealed and hid and protected the innards for all time.
Folks who liked them bought several.)
--
<Help Keep The Net Emoticon-free!>
j...@freedom.net
I'm glad Mr Brauner is making a nice mic but as EveAnna points out he has no
more right to that shape than anyone. Neumann and AKG have the right to
these designs if anyone does but really should anyone have the exclusive
rights to a cylinder with a mesh grill on it ?
"EveAnna Manley" <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9g88v8$pi7$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net
Jay Kahrs
>chronological order (I think) on the page below and tell us who copied who?
>http://www.manleylabs.com/mics.html
Hmmm... well... uhh... <g>
Fletcher, what's your stance on all the companys that make copys of Strats and
P-basses? I'm not saying anyones right or wrong but lets get real. I doubt that
the Studio Projects mics are going to impact Dirk's mics. If anything people
might be inspired to save the cash for his mics after seeing and using the
SP's. How are a $200 mic and a $4000 anything alike other then both being
microphones? They're targeted to very different customers. If the SP mics were
in the $1500-2500 range I'd give your arguement a little more weight.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Engineer - Producer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
hank alrich
> I'm sure you already have every "Guitar-Mart" and discount whore in the
> country lined up like lemmings to distribute the stuff, and I certainly
> wish you the best of luck with that, but why go that extra yard to do
> damage to a small shop. Was that really necessary?
Of course it was "necessary", because they are building to a price point
and not a quality point, and if they have to pay some designer to come
up with a look for their own line then they can't pump the stuff as
cheaply.
> By copying the cosmetic of the Brauner Microphones, you are doing damage
> to the Brauner shop. I don't know if this was your intention, and this
> was done with malice aforethought, or ignorance of the Brauner cosmetic
> (that's called benefit of the doubt...but I doubt it was ignorance).
I doubt it was anything but a marketing handjob for a nation of petards
who can't tell a silicone tit from a mammary gland.
> Obviously, you had a choice in that regard, and chose the look of the Brauner.
See above.
hank alrich
> It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry who
worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
--
"You got to get it while you can!"
To order the four-CD set of "RAP 3 Times" see
http://www.hoohahrecords.com/rap
A Public Service Announcement from secret mountain
cram
of the past. Ideas are free for all to share. You just go to designster.com
and share all your favorite industrial designs.
C'mon man, everybody's doin' it. ;)
Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tc...@dbxpro.com
Mark Plancke
>Umm, I was being *sarcastic*, Mark.
>
>You know, it's really hard to be sarcastic *and* keep the internet
>emoticon-free.
>
>Alan
Yes, that's why I don't bother. <bg>
My apologies.
Chris G.
hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1euxukx.158...@209-162-27-86.thegrid.net...
> Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> > It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
>
> You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry who
> worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
> out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
> ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
>
Negative. Like it or not, it's capitalism. If any of the Chinese stuff are
clones, then the manufacturers of the original hardware, can sue in at least
the country from which they are based so that the Chinese product and their
company can not do business in that country. It's been done successfully
to Behringer. However very similar designs will almost certainly pop up in
China and they probably will be based off of classic American/European
designs.
It's happening right now with the condenser microphone industry. The
American and European mic manufacturers know what's coming, and already many
of them are doing much of their manufacturing in China where they are
steadily getting better and better at making high quality microphone parts.
If that happened in the mic preamp industry, then most likely U.S.
manufacturers would have to adapt to the new realities and most likely would
at least have some of their manufacturing done in China or in some other
country with skilled but cheap labor. Mexico perhaps? SHURE I know used to
make mics in Mexico. I'm not sure(shure?) if Shure still does however.
At any rate, more then likely I doubt the cost of the mic pres will be a
whole lot cheaper given that the high quality parts are expensive. That is
unless China can somehow make cheaper high quality components. Somehow
they've done it with microphones...so who knows. But if it happens it'll
happen. As I said, that's the nature of capitalism unless projectionist
legislation is passed to protect the U.S. or European audio industries.
Myself, I just want something a little better then my Mackie mic pres but
under $400 because that's all I can justify spending. My Presonus Blue
Tube is slightly better, but its not a night and day difference or anything.
I know many here depend on their equipment for their living, or manufacture
audio equipment, so the thought of a flood of cheap but good sounding
Chinese audio products flooding the market is I'm sure a very scary thought.
But it's not the first time something like that has happened. Simply look
at the home studio industry. It's exploded, and it's hurt many studios
badly as bedroom project studios like my own take away a lot of business
from the big studios. High quality gear that I could afford would make my
services even more attractive to potential clients. But unless a law is
passed to ban the practice, then I'm going to continue to make a little
money on the side from my expensive hobby. So while cheap Chinese
professional mic preamps may sound like a nightmare to you, to me, as long
as they are on the up and up and aren't outright stealing designs (like
Behringer), then I'd be more then happy to buy them as otherwise I'd
probably never get a chance to buy any high end audio equipment. So you
could look at it this way. Unless my economic status changed significantly,
I'll probably never be able to afford $2000 mic preamps (or even $1000 mic
preamps) and would never buy one anyways. Cheaper mic preamps that sound
close to the high end stuff simply gives me access to good sounding gear.
People who CAN afford the high end gear would probably not buy the cheap
stuff anyways and would most likely continue to support the high end audio
industries. At least that's my theory. But the budget audio wars will get
even more intense I'm sure as the Chinese audio industry continues to grow.
It can't be stopped unless trade tariffs or some type of protective measures
are passed into law. But that causes counter-tarriffs by China and a host o
f other problems. So in general, you can't stop a rock once it gets
rolling! (At least not a boulder)
Chris G.
Chris G.
yonder at alt.music.4-track. I can say for damn sure that WE are VERY
concerned about consistency. That is one thing that we talk quite a bit
about over there on that newsgroup. I try to compare mics of the same model
as much as possible when buying them in order to check on consistency. It
is true that some of them have consistency issues, but also some don't, or
at least very few problems. Many of the manufacturers are also taking steps
to insure that there is consistency in their mics. Part of that of coarse
falls on the pressure they put on the Chinese factories like 797 to make a
very consistent product.
At any rate, all I can say is use your ears. But also if you can afford
to, then by all means support the manufacturers you know and trust. Nothing
wrong with that at all. Myself, I'm a big supporter of Marshall mics mainly
because:
1. They are based here in the U.S.,
2. They have never failed to provide me with excellent customer support, and
3. They put out some pretty damn good product to my ears that is at least
better then what I could afford in the past.
But anyways, don't say that us low-budget guys don't care. Believe me we
are quite passionate about audio. It's a hobby/addiction that we dearly
love. Sure there are lots of recording newbies who don't know any better
and just buy the cheapest, yet flashiest looking mic that is recommended by
the sales weasel at Guitar Center, but to those who have recorded for many
years and who are very familiar with budget mics, this new crop of Chinese
mics is great news! But it also has forced us to become more
discriminating and to become more educated on microphones. Thus the reason
why we come to forums like this one. It's to learn what's crap and what's
not from people who know.
Oh...and concerning Behringer....remember that Herr Behringer also was sued
several times successfully. If any of these mic manufacturers are stupid
enough to clone anyone else's mic, they most likely will be sued. You can
be damn sure that established mic manufacturers are looking REALLY close at
the designs of their Chinese competitors.
Chris G.
Mark Plancke <Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com> wrote in message
news:p83fitoajpgtbkai6...@4ax.com...
Chris G.
never seen a C-12...heard about it but never seen a picture of it.
Personally I think that most budget home studios that buy these cheap
Chinese mics likewise have not seen many of the real expensive mics that
their cosmetics were copied from. Honestly to me they mostly look pretty
much the same. Big long cylinders with grills at the top...some a little
flashier then others. Personally I like wierd fancy shapes the best like
the B.L.U.E. Blue Berry and the high end C.A.D. tube condenser mics. The
"Bottle" type mics like the M1/MC-012 combos I think also look rather nice.
I've yet to see any Chinese condenser mics in that style.
Chris G.
EveAnna Manley <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9g88v8$pi7$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Mark Plancke
>Uh...Mark..I am one of those people and so are most of the people over
>yonder at alt.music.4-track. I can say for damn sure that WE are VERY
>concerned about consistency. That is one thing that we talk quite a bit
>about over there on that newsgroup. I try to compare mics of the same model
>as much as possible when buying them in order to check on consistency. It
>is true that some of them have consistency issues, but also some don't, or
>at least very few problems. Many of the manufacturers are also taking steps
>to insure that there is consistency in their mics. Part of that of coarse
>falls on the pressure they put on the Chinese factories like 797 to make a
>very consistent product.
But Chris, do you typify the majority of Guitar Center visitors? I
think not. Trust me, most people are not as well informed as you
guys over on the 4-track group.
>But anyways, don't say that us low-budget guys don't care. Believe me we
>are quite passionate about audio. It's a hobby/addiction that we dearly
>love. Sure there are lots of recording newbies who don't know any better
>and just buy the cheapest, yet flashiest looking mic that is recommended by
>the sales weasel at Guitar Center, but to those who have recorded for many
>years and who are very familiar with budget mics, this new crop of Chinese
>mics is great news! But it also has forced us to become more
>discriminating and to become more educated on microphones. Thus the reason
>why we come to forums like this one. It's to learn what's crap and what's
>not from people who know.
Chris, see above. I'm not referring to guys like you, it's 90% of the
other people on this earth that aren't as informed as you.
>Oh...and concerning Behringer....remember that Herr Behringer also was sued
>several times successfully.
But if you ask him, I'd bet he say he did nothing wrong. It's about
ethics in my book and most of the manufacturers of these microphones
have little. I'm painting with a broad brush and they're are certainly
exceptions. If those tools carry you through a life long career then
more power to you, for me it's like Fletcher says: buy lifetime tools,
because it's cheaper in the long run and you'll get better results
along the way.
Bryson
Fletcher wrote:
> goober wrote:
>
> > Anyone tried this? Its a blatent copy of an AKG C12.
> > I saw the web site and smiled, but it keeps popping into my mind..... I
> > wonder what it sounds like?
>
>
> It's about as close to a C-12 as one of those nice "Rolex" watches you can buy
> on the streets of New York City of $15-.
> --
Shit, they've gone up! Glad I got mine a few years ago for $8.
I took it to a jeweler at the mall for a re-size (no charge), and he busted
his tool trying to pop the pin outta the band. Man was he pissed.
Never wore it either.
Tim
JnyVee
<chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> news:1euxukx.158...@209-162-27-86.thegrid.net...
> > Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> >
> > > It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
> >
> > You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry who
> > worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
> > out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
> > ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
> >
>
> Negative. Like it or not, it's capitalism.
well, no.
It's theft.
Theft happens in capitalism, communism, socialism and
antidisestablishmentarianism.
>If any of the Chinese stuff are
> clones, then the manufacturers of the original hardware, can sue in at least
> the country from which they are based so that the Chinese product and their
> company can not do business in that country.
and pigs will fly before the giggling stops on the other side of the
pond.
> It's been done successfully
> to Behringer.
it took 10 YEARS of this crap from Herr B and the financial moxie of
MACKIE and sheer determination of Greg to push Behringer to the wall
and make them surrender on that one... ask Mr Caesar of Aphex.
> However very similar designs will almost certainly pop up in
> China and they probably will be based off of classic American/European
> designs.
Nobody's arguing 'similar designs'...
Mackie wasn;t arguing 'similar designs' or theyd've launched court
papers at Yamaha, Peavey and all the other folks making
Mackie-concept-copies.
Eve Anna isn;t arguing 'similar designs'...
It's about simple theft.
> SHURE I know used to
> make mics in Mexico. I'm not sure(shure?) if Shure still does however.
SHURE, SWITCHCRAFT, FENDER and others
> At any rate, more then likely I doubt the cost of the mic pres will be a
> whole lot cheaper given that the high quality parts are expensive.
well now, no... not any more than these $250 'Noimuns' are. Take a good
pre, build it fast and dirty with bad solder and cheap caps and such
and yeah... you'll have a Fearn Copy at the price of a VMP2... and
yaknow what? It won't sound as good. I'm still waiting to see what kind
of legs these mics have... it's only been a year or so.
> That is
> unless China can somehow make cheaper high quality components. Somehow
> they've done it with microphones...so who knows.
THere's no magic here.
TANSTAAFL
China ain;t making a $3k Neumann for $300... they're making a $300 mic.
If marketters are managing to convince the marks out there that it IS a
$3k mic for 1/10th the price then it's the custopmer that's getting all
hinky about the paint job. Used car dealers are nodding in approval all
across the land.
> Myself, I just want something a little better then my Mackie mic pres but
> under $400 because that's all I can justify spending.
what's your idea of 'better' in this case?
> I know many here depend on their equipment for their living, or manufacture
> audio equipment, so the thought of a flood of cheap but good sounding
> Chinese audio products flooding the market is I'm sure a very scary thought.
ahhh good-sounding... reliable... consistant... there are the elements
of question...
> But it's not the first time something like that has happened. Simply look
> at the home studio industry. It's exploded, and it's hurt many studios
> badly as bedroom project studios like my own take away a lot of business
> from the big studios.
quantity over quality.. it's a cachet hobby wherein folks think they're
in biz. It's a cloud propped up and fed and encouraged by the market...
not since the us Car Craze in the 50's 60's has such nonsense been
foisted and the money keeps rolling in.
> High quality gear that I could afford would make my
> services even more attractive to potential clients.
TANSTAAFL... REAL high quality comes at a price.
I know nada about your work but taking this on behalf of the 99.44% of
the folks buying this stuff, the old talent-over-tools thing is there
in a large way.
'good enough' can come real cheap. Peavey and Mackie nailed that.
'seems like hi quality' is a whole 'nother art... and one that keeps
most folks separated from their cash on a regular basis.
> But unless a law is
> passed to ban the practice, then I'm going to continue to make a little
> money on the side from my expensive hobby. So while cheap Chinese
> professional mic preamps may sound like a nightmare to you, to me, as long
> as they are on the up and up and aren't outright stealing designs (like
> Behringer), then I'd be more then happy to buy them as otherwise I'd
> probably never get a chance to buy any high end audio equipment.
but cheap chinese knockoffs aren't 'high end audio equipment', they're
emulations thereof. The good stuff costs and you'll get some when you
can afford it and justify the expense.
> So you
> could look at it this way. Unless my economic status changed significantly,
> I'll probably never be able to afford $2000 mic preamps (or even $1000 mic
> preamps) and would never buy one anyways.
and thus you don't NEED them, however much you WANT them.
> Cheaper mic preamps that sound
> close to the high end stuff simply gives me access to good sounding gear.
> People who CAN afford the high end gear would probably not buy the cheap
> stuff anyways and would most likely continue to support the high end audio
> industries. At least that's my theory.
not a well-thought-out-one. and one that GWB is denying right this
minute with teh steel industry
> But the budget audio wars will get
> even more intense I'm sure as the Chinese audio industry continues to grow.
> It can't be stopped unless trade tariffs or some type of protective measures
> are passed into law. But that causes counter-tarriffs by China and a host o
> f other problems. So in general, you can't stop a rock once it gets
> rolling! (At least not a boulder)
well hell then, let's all go steal stuff form our rich neighbors... I
mean nobody;s managed to stop burglars for teh entire history of
humanity so why fight it!
sheeshe...
JnyVee
> >Hey rappers: just for giggles, have a look at the various mics in
> >chronological order (I think) on the page below and tell us who copied who?
> >http://www.manleylabs.com/mics.html
ummmm it's a metal cylinder with a screen-enclosed capsule at one
end... about the simplest way to machine and build that thing...
hank alrich
> hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> news:1euxukx.158...@209-162-27-86.thegrid.net...
> > Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> > > It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
> > You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry who
> > worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
> > out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
> > ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
> Negative. Like it or not, it's capitalism.
In China it is definetly not capitalism, and right here in the USA there
is not one single "free market" to be found. I challenge you to name
_one_ such market in the US.
If it's capitalsim you'd like, then try this: "Dang, ain't it a shame
American workers won't take fiftenn bucks a month and call it a wage.
Because if they did I could have a lot more cool audio gear."
hank alrich
> Oh...and concerning Behringer....remember that Herr Behringer also was sued
> several times successfully. If any of these mic manufacturers are stupid
> enough to clone anyone else's mic, they most likely will be sued. You can
> be damn sure that established mic manufacturers are looking REALLY close at
> the designs of their Chinese competitors.
One needs Mackie-esque money to fight those battles. Tons of
intellectual property have been ambushed for decades by those who knew
very fucking well, thanks, that those whose stagecoach got ambushed
could never afford to fight it out in court.
That's why voting with one's dollars is so very goddamned important.
It's the only real power anybody has in a so-called "capitalist" system.
Chris, let's put this shoe, hypothecticaly, on a different foot: so you
gotta take anthrax vaccinations. Big deal, bro'. Didn't you sign up for
the military, promise to obey until buried and take the pay checks? Why
appeal to anyone else's sense of justice or compassion. It's a
capitlaist world and there ain't no right or wrong; it's all about how
much stuff costs. If it costs your life, what's the biggie?
Beyond Mackie, Bearshitinger ripped Aphex and Drawmer, too. Funny,
though, the Bearshit rip of the Drawmer is a fucking piece of shit,
while the Drawmer piece is a classic.
Dindae Sheena
open for China's entry to the WTO......Just a thought!.....
--
喊`昂,,,,喊`昂
Dindae Sheena
Oasis Studios
YYYD Productions
Beijing, China
喊`昂,,,,喊`昂
"Chris G." <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote in message
news:tifkh1j...@corp.supernews.com...
Todd McFadden
get real. Mics pretty much look alike. There are only about 5 or 6 general
shapes to modern condensors that I can identify. I could name five or six
off the top of my head that resemble the Studio Projects mic and I am by no
stretch a pro. Does it just bother some folks that they are made in China?
My Studio Projects C1 sounds damn good. It is very inexpensive. And
several respected pros have claimed that it sounds exactly like a U87. I
wouldn't know but these are guys who's word I would certainly take for
truth. My understanding is that they are NOT copied, reverse engineered or
otherwise pilfered in any way from any other products. If Ford manufactures
a car that drives as well as a Mercedes does that mean that Ford stole
something from Mercedes? Doesn't make sense.
Todd
"Fletcher" <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote in message
news:3B2766FF...@mercenary.com...
Bruce McIntyre
Chris G. wrote in message ...
>I try to compare mics of the same model
>as much as possible when buying them in order to check on consistency.
You know this is not really an issue when your buying a high quality mic
from
a well known quality vendor. My time is worth money. Who wants to spend
hours dicking around with $200 half-ass mics trying to find the one that is
least
problematic? I'd rather just go buy the Manley version and know I don't
have to
ever worry about it. I also know my money is going to someone who deserves
the
few extra bucks because they spend the time to go through and make sure they
are all consistent BEFORE they leave the factory and that is how it should
be.
Bruce McIntyre
Roger W. Norman
is about as far as I take it).
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Roger....@verizon.net
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
www.mp3.com/buddywhite
www.mp3.com/thelivewireband
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"akammen" <nex...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B74D0DDB.306E2%nex...@earthlink.net...
Roger W. Norman
do a lifetime's worth of work with them. I still don't buy the best of
everything I buy, but I buy the best I CAN buy and sometimes that might even
be a mic or two. Say the Marshall mics I picked up, for example. They may
not be lifelong tools, but I'll certainly get my use out of them during
their lifetimes. If the 603Ss only give me 5 years worth of service then
I've paid a whole whooping $20 per year over their lifetime and still gotten
some pretty good recordings with them. True, I won't put them up against
KM184s or even SM81s, but all of that comes in time if needed. Plus
everybody has their point of diminishing returns, where todays high cost mic
could be a less expensive but serviceable mic and maybe some new tires for
the car, or whatever. I can see Chris' point. I also thought it kinda
impressive when Mike Rivers kept pulling out 421 after 421 for the Steel
Jam. And that was just part of his arsenal. But each of our abilities are
different, just as our spending points are different. Now with the addition
of knowledgable resources like this newsgroup those having to take the less
expensive direction at least can become more informed before making the
final decision.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Roger....@verizon.net
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
www.mp3.com/buddywhite
www.mp3.com/thelivewireband
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Mark Plancke" <Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com> wrote in message
news:drmfitkvcoq0p2mmu...@4ax.com...
Roger W. Norman
alternatives. Plus there's such an eclectic mix of guys on this group that
some are strictly here to learn about the options to their personal
objectives. So their time isn't money in that sense. I spent about $800 on
Circulon cookware, not because I'm a chef, but because I know the value of
quality cookware and I do almost all the cooking. But based on the
prodigious amount of cash I make from this gig, I'm lucky sometimes to be
able to afford even Marshall mics! <g> And then there are years where all
the upgrades happen at one time.
While I'm not a Behringer fan, I can see why people buy the lower priced
spread. What one would hope is that over time you learn just how inferior
some of these types of products are so that you can really appreciate better
quality products.
Funny, though. Here during the last 6 months when I'd normally be reaching
for the 4050 I've been reaching for the V67 instead, and liking the results.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Roger....@verizon.net
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
www.mp3.com/buddywhite
www.mp3.com/thelivewireband
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Bruce McIntyre" <Audi...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:9g9koa$oea$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Roger W. Norman
towards their purchasing capabilities, let's get it straight that you are
talking about manufacturer/distributor's purposeful cosmetic copies, not the
people making the purchases. I mean, if I could get past the picture of
EveAnna I'd be drooling over the mic and equipment in her ads.<g> But
Manley and Langevin products will have to be on the backburner of purchases
for many of us. So the purchase of, say, BPM mics isn't really likely to
dig into Brauner sales simply because the people purchasing them aren't
making that decision. Their decision is to buy an inexpensive mic or no mic
at all. Not either a Marshall or (whatever name here) vs. a Brauner or
Neumann.
I stand behind your ethics, but it's unfortunately without my wallet in
hand! <g>
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Roger....@verizon.net
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
www.mp3.com/buddywhite
www.mp3.com/thelivewireband
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Roger....@verizon.net
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
www.mp3.com/buddywhite
www.mp3.com/thelivewireband
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Todd McFadden" <todd...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:F3YV6.10997$Rq4.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Mike Rivers
> The Groove Tubes mics came to mind when I first saw the Studio Projects mic.
> I'm glad Mr Brauner is making a nice mic but as EveAnna points out he has no
> more right to that shape than anyone. Neumann and AKG have the right to
> these designs if anyone does but really should anyone have the exclusive
> rights to a cylinder with a mesh grill on it ?
Much as I understand Fletcher's point, I think we're dealing with
pretty much a form-follows-function thing here. How many guitars, even
those made by boutique makers, look like Martins? How many 4-bus
mixers look like Mackies? How many mics look like an SM-58? What
else is a 1" diaphragm side address condenser mic gonna look like, for
pete's sake?
Maybe EveAnna should sponsor a design contest?
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Fletcher
> Hey rappers: just for giggles, have a look at the various mics in
> chronological order (I think) on the page below and tell us who copied who?
> http://www.manleylabs.com/mics.html
>
OK, let's look at it...
1) A couple of C-12's (BTW, you forgot the one with the'swivel' ring at the
top...the real C-12's in the photo all seem to be the version where the whole
head turns...if you're trying to make the point that most of these cosmetics
derived from the C-12, that would have been a far better example), an upside
down C-24, a 'the tube' (I always thought they were on the right track making it
'long round and brown'...kinda like a review of the item right there in the
store), and the lovely C-12 VR with the cosmetic only a Brooklyn 'Fish Wife'
(with the plastic covers on the sofa) could love. The grills all have a 'flat
top', which is characteristic of the look of the item(s).
2) Manley mics, in brass and black. Significantly wider than our C-12 friends,
significantly shorter than our C-12 friends, it's also got a big bump on the top
of a pretty wide mesh grill screen, the mesh is far wider than that of the C-12,
the 'bump' serves to alter the acoustic signature of the grill. It looks
nothing like the mics above..
3) Groove tube mics...yep, they do seem to have similar 'girth' and height...but
the brass one has a bunch of holes in the side that I don't recall seeing on
either the C-12, nor the Manley stuff...so I don't really get the implication.
The other one looks like it's trying to be 'gun metal blue' (could just be the
photo, never seen one upclose), I don't recall ever seeing a Manley nor a C-12
in Gun Metal Blue. The grill is flat on the top, the grill mesh significantly
courser in material, and finer in mesh than the others, it bears absolutely no
resemblance to a "Manley Mic", not even in 'silhouette' from 50 feet.
4) The Brauner VM-1...forgetting the shock mount, it has a dull nickel finish
(more like an original C-12), about the same body size as the Manley mics or the
Groove tube mics, the grill a finer material than the Groove Tube, and a much
tighter mesh than the Manley...again, at 50 feet, the difference between the
G-T, the Manley, and the C-12 family would be quite obvious even to the casual
observer.
5) The Studio Projects...Same body size and girth of the Manleys, the Groove
Tubes, and the Brauner. Same finish as the Brauner. Same slightly rounded
grill top as the Brauner, though what seems to be a courser material used for
the grill material. The only difference I can see between the two is that the
Brauner has a 'ring' around the bottom, and the Studio Projects a little [as
Alan from PMI calls it] "nipple" on the bottom...while that "nipple" is off top
the side, I assume it's where the cable goes...the cable goes 15-20 mm to the
left in the center of the mic, but more people seem to notice the body shape and
grill assembly when trying to identify microphones than the differences on the
bottom.
From 50 feet, I don't know if I could tell the difference between the two looks
if I didn't know what had been put up in advance. In a conversation with Alan
yesterday, I mentioned that if he had his little Chinese friends do the grill in
'black anodize' (like AKG does on the back of a C-12 or 414)...the cosmetic
issue would be entirely moot as the Studio Projects would have it's own unique
character and look...as does each of the preceding 4 microphones.
Fletcher
>
> I hope that this stupid discussion will have an end and all the customers
> will buy their microphones acording to the sound quality and not for their
> country of origin.
Just curious...if memory serves me right, wasn't it BPM that lost a suit to
Neumann for 'infringement' of the look of their microphones? Maybe I'm
mistaken, can you clear this up for me?
Mark Plancke
>And several respected pros have claimed that it sounds exactly like a U87.
Wow!
Goober
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:9ga598$sam$1...@sshuraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
> Before we get too involved with what might seem to some as personal
slights
> towards their purchasing capabilities, let's get it straight that you are
> talking about manufacturer/distributor's purposeful cosmetic copies, not
the
> people making the purchases. I mean, if I could get past the picture of
> EveAnna I'd be drooling over the mic and equipment in her ads.<g> But
> Manley and Langevin products will have to be on the backburner of
purchases
> for many of us. So the purchase of, say, BPM mics isn't really likely to
> dig into Brauner sales simply because the people purchasing them aren't
> making that decision. Their decision is to buy an inexpensive mic or no
mic
> at all. Not either a Marshall or (whatever name here) vs. a Brauner or
> Neumann.
>
> I stand behind your ethics, but it's unfortunately without my wallet in
> hand! <g>
>
> --
> Roger W. Norman
> SirMusic Studio
It's obvious to anyone that these 797 mics are not the same as the items
they resemble, but what I wanted to know was what
they sound like? I'd have no against prejudice buying an american copy of a
european mic (eg Manley, Groove tube) , (but I'd probably find they don't
sound exactly like the originals) , so I have no prejudice against buying a
chinese copy either (which
probably would not sound like the original either).
Mark Plancke
>, but what I wanted to know was what
>they sound like?
Why they sound just like a U87 of course.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Goober
"Mark Plancke" <Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com> wrote in message
> "Goober" <g.pr...@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >, but what I wanted to know was what
> >they sound like?
>
> Why they sound just like a U87 of course.
Ahh well. And I was hoping they would have that authentic chinese copy
sound.
Are there any cheap condenser mics that don't sound exactly like U87s out
there?
EveAnna Manley
I started with the AKG mics because that's what you mentioned in your first
post. I grabbed that AKG mics foto off of Southern Track's website. (Nice
Mike!... as in Mike, owner of Southern Tracks... boy he has a lovely mic
collection...)
Just to correct a coupla metalurgical mistakes in your last post about the
http://www.manleylabs.com/mics.html
page:
Manley Ref Gold: high polish brass body with 24K gold plate
Manley Ref Cardioid: bead blasted aluminum body with black type II anodise
GT1: Stainless steel body (can't remember if it is brushed or beadblasted;
can't tell by the foto I lifted off eBay)
GT2: stainless steel (as I recall) as well with BLACK powercoat wrinkle
finish
Brauner VM1: presumed bead blasted brass with nickel plate
StudioProjects C1: also presumed bead blasted brass with nickel plate
BTW, anodise must be done to aluminum so to achive a black finish over brass
one would need to explore black chrome, black nickel or some kind of paint
or powercoat....
--
Cheers, EveAnna Manley, President
Manley Laboratories, Inc. 13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino, CA. 91710
Tel: (909) 627-4256 Fax: (909) 628-2482
<http://www.manleylabs.com>
reply to:
<mailto:ema...@manleylabs.com>
"Fletcher" <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote in message
news:3B28A69C...@mercenary.com...
Kiira Triea
: Hey cool...my Marshall V-67G looks just like the AKG C-12. You know I'd
: never seen a C-12...heard about it but never seen a picture of it.
: Personally I think that most budget home studios that buy these cheap
: Chinese mics likewise have not seen many of the real expensive mics that
: their cosmetics were copied from. Honestly to me they mostly look pretty
: much the same. Big long cylinders with grills at the top...some a little
: flashier then others. Personally I like wierd fancy shapes the best like
: the B.L.U.E. Blue Berry and the high end C.A.D. tube condenser mics. The
: "Bottle" type mics like the M1/MC-012 combos I think also look rather nice.
: I've yet to see any Chinese condenser mics in that style.
: Chris G.
I know, that green and gold color thingy on the V67 gets my
rods and cones all atwitter. So I'm gonna buy one! I dig the B.L.U.E.
looks too... especially the Dragonfly. Oh yeah, it sounded nice
when I sang "Lonesome Fugitive" acappella at Guitar Center. :-)
The strangest looking mic has got to be the Gefell UM900 (I think???)
... looks like something from a '30s Buck Rogers set.
Kiira - out of control mic impulse buyer on a budget
Mike Rivers
> My time is worth money. Who wants to spend
> hours dicking around with $200 half-ass mics trying to find the one that is
> least
> problematic? I'd rather just go buy the Manley version and know I don't
> have to
> ever worry about it.
Thing is that for every guy like you, there are a thousand who are in
the market for a microphone (because they think they have something
musical to say to the world if only they could get it recorded) to
whom their time is worth nothing. If they weren't dicking with mics
trying to find a good one, they'd be watching TV, or reading books, or
playing their guitars and writing songs. It doesn't cost them
anything to play around with inexpensive mics, and they might even
recognize that they've found a good one now and then. To someone
whose time is worth $50/hour, the search might turn a $300 mic into a
$1500 mic (which might also be a good buy), but it only cost a couple
of concert tickets or fancy night out, not a weekend vacation with the
family.
Of course the importers of inexpensive mics aren't going to refuse to
sell one to YOU, but they're not particularly going after your share
of the market either. There's more money to be made easier with a
different set of buyers.
Mike Rivers
> Nobody would RATHER buy the el cheapos, it's just that some have no
> alternatives.
Well, they do, but the alternative is much bigger than buying a
different mic. The alternative is to not have a home studio, rehearse
so they can work efficiently in a commercial studio, pick out the ten
best songs they have, and get them recorded. But that's a hard pill
to swallow when someone's been lulled into thinking that having all
those tools around will allow them to develop their music and talent
without having to pay by the hour. But there's no arguing with those
folks, so you might as well let them enjoy their hobby.
> While I'm not a Behringer fan, I can see why people buy the lower priced
> spread. What one would hope is that over time you learn just how inferior
> some of these types of products are so that you can really appreciate better
> quality products.
Yeah, you'll find a whole lot of pictures posted on the Internet that
were taken with a $150 digital camera (or the one they got free with
their ISP signup) than there are with $800 Nikons. But you don't get
pictures like those Harvey took of the Marshall and Studio Projects
mics with a cheap camera, and those of us who care appreciate the
difference. (in the photos, not the mics)
Chris G.
have the money to afford the Brauner and Manley mics, you can be damn sure
I'd buy one. But right now I can only afford $200 mics. So I look for the
best damn $200 (and cheaper) mics I can find.
Chris G.
Roger W. Norman <rno...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:9ga598$sam$1...@sshuraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
Chris G.
designs.
Personally I wish to see more "bottle" type mics or maybe some patterned
after the old RCA mics.
Basically mics that look like works of art that also happen to sound good.
Chris G.
Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr992473508k@trad...
Chris G.
Well the U.S. military/Anthrax vaccination deal is something a bit different
as in my opinion it violates federal law and is an unlawful order. But I
finished my 8yrs of military service this month as a E5 (Sgt) and did not
reenlist so at least for myself I don't have to worry about that anymore.
But I'll still continue to work to fight against it. But in that case
when you're talking about life and death matters and real physical
suffering, it's a little different. But I do take your point in that
capitalism can also cause real pain and suffering in a totally free market
economy. Myself I don't believe in pure capitalism, but that's a whooooole
other debate. My main point is that we gotta face the current reality of
the world market. If American audio manufacturers wanna change things to
ban Chinese mics and audio electronics from flooding the market then they
gotta start lobbying the politicians and making some noise. The problem is
that most of these "Chinese" mics are joint ventures with U.S. and European
companies. Budget mic companies like Shure and Audio Technica simply will
have to adapt to the market realities and do their best to make a better or
equal but less expensive product.
Myself I'm hoping that more mic companies will look at other developing
countries like Mexico as sources of labor so we're not so dependent on China
and we can help out our neighbors to the south. While they're not 100% made
in the USA, if they are US companies with some of the parts or work done
here, at least they still provide jobs and $$ for the U.S. economy.
At any rate, I don't think the high end companies have much to worry about.
If I had the money and did enough recording to justify the expense I'd still
buy high end mics and mic preamps. The cheap stuff I'd probably just use
as part of mobile recording rigs where I wouldn't worry so much about them
getting damaged or stolen.
Chris G.
Chris G.
nowhere near the $$ or the recording jobs to justify buying anything as
expensive as a Manley microphone. But when (and hopefully one day I will)
I do have that type of $$, then I most definitely would be buying high end
mics. I'd probaby still buy the cheaper condenser mics but only for
dangerous tasks like snare micing and kick drum micing where I wouldn't want
to risk the expensive stuff. I must say that my Marshall MXL-2001 sounded
beautiful in a kick drum. Better in fact then my Sennheiser MD-421 on the
last session I recorded.
Chris G.
Bruce McIntyre <Audi...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:9g9koa$oea$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
JnyVee
<chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> My main point is that we gotta face the current reality of
> the world market. If American audio manufacturers wanna change things to
> ban Chinese mics and audio electronics from flooding the market then they
> gotta start lobbying the politicians and making some noise.
that's not the issue... protectionism I don;t see as the answer here...
enforcement of patent/copyright design issues IS a decent weapon and
that should be used...
> The problem is
> that most of these "Chinese" mics are joint ventures with U.S. and European
> companies.
wellll sorta... china's makin th things en masse... folks here can buy
into em blind (take whatever comes off teh line no QC) or use em as
real parts meeting a set standard in a well-made product...
problem is with the latter, you end up with a mic that actually COSTS
something, witness Manley and so you end up in the upper-mid market
with a reliable well-built piece of goods that is about 2/3 the price
of a Neumann or other Mercedes product rather than 1/10th. and that's
GRAND as there's a real place for that. Where it hurts is the
something-for-nothing myth that folks are PTBarnumed into that the $300
large diaphragm thing in the box is actually in the ballpark at all...
it's a $300 mic...
THese same folks would giggle profusely if a car dealer tried to sell
em a shiney red Ferrari lookalike for $8k new on the showroom floor
with any promise at all other than that it was a toy. Or if the corner
hardware store tried to sell you a dead-lookalike for a Husquevarna
chainsaw for $25.95 claiming it would work as well, last as long and
run as well as the original.
> Budget mic companies like Shure and Audio Technica simply will
> have to adapt to the market realities and do their best to make a better or
> equal but less expensive product.
and the ALREADY DO. Where do you think the SHURE Beta Green series came
from? Their 2 never-before-in-the-line side-address under-a-grand
condensors?
and AT -started- this whole mess making SHURE-killers at 1/2 the price
in the early 80's with teh old 814 (?) ball mic and that whole like of
dynamoic and electret condensor music performance mics. They've
managed to NOT dive into the junk-for-cheap race since they have a real
solid market of decent-priced tools.
AKG made a LOT of folks happy when they pretty much cut the price of
the classic 535 nearly in HALF... just to make the market sales. It'
still a way better deal in my opinion than the chinese and russian
small-diaphragm ck-1 wannabees.
there's a point at which it isn's sensible to go for the bottom of the
barrel. A $.50 hammer isn't a bargain, it's just cheap.
> Myself I'm hoping that more mic companies will look at other developing
> countries like Mexico as sources of labor so we're not so dependent on China
> and we can help out our neighbors to the south.
Our Neighbnors to The SOuth don;t have the massive govenment support
and help to build hi-tech and robotic assembly plants in order to get a
leg up on being able to stamp out thousands of a Thing hoping nobody
will stick some damnfool QC step between them and the drooling consumer
who sees a New BMW roadster wiath a $9k pricetag.
>While they're not 100% made
> in the USA, if they are US companies with some of the parts or work done
> here, at least they still provide jobs and $$ for the U.S. economy.
You REALLY need to do your economics homework... ever since NAFTA was
foisted on us jobs have been draining out of the US at a nasty rate...
> At any rate, I don't think the high end companies have much to worry about.
> If I had the money and did enough recording to justify the expense I'd still
> buy high end mics and mic preamps. The cheap stuff I'd probably just use
> as part of mobile recording rigs where I wouldn't worry so much about them
> getting damaged or stolen.
remind me of that when I need to hire someone to get a location job
done well...
--
<Help Keep The Net Emoticon-free!>
Chris G.
Consumers want cheap, decent sounding mics...the Chinese do it the
cheapest...and....BINGO! They start selling lots of mics!
But you also have to keep in mind that many of these companies are joing
American/Chinese or European/Chinese operations.
Chris G.
hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1euydkp.1gl...@209-162-27-124.thegrid.net...
> Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> > hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> > news:1euxukx.158...@209-162-27-86.thegrid.net...
> > > Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> > > > It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
>
> > > You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry
who
> > > worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
> > > out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
> > > ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
>
> > Negative. Like it or not, it's capitalism.
>
> In China it is definetly not capitalism, and right here in the USA there
> is not one single "free market" to be found. I challenge you to name
> _one_ such market in the US.
>
> If it's capitalsim you'd like, then try this: "Dang, ain't it a shame
> American workers won't take fiftenn bucks a month and call it a wage.
> Because if they did I could have a lot more cool audio gear."
Chris G.
JnyVee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in message
news:130620011839015030%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com...
> In article <tifkh1j...@corp.supernews.com>, "Chris G."
> <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> > hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> > news:1euxukx.158...@209-162-27-86.thegrid.net...
> > > Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's too bad high end mic preamps can't be as inexpensive.
> > >
> > > You mean so that the orignal designers of the high quality circuitry
who
> > > worked their asses off to get us the caliber of pre we now see can go
> > > out of business while the offshore pirates give us lookalike copycat
> > > ripoff designs? Yeah, Chris, that sounds really terrific.
> > >
> >
> > Negative. Like it or not, it's capitalism.
>
> It's theft.
> Theft happens in capitalism, communism, socialism and
> antidisestablishmentarianism.
Outright cloning of designs like Behringer did certainly is. I should have
clarified that I wasn't talking about that. Do you know for a fact that all
Chinese audio factories clone designs? Get ideas from other designs maybe,
but ourtright cloning? If you can point to an example of a Chinese made
clone of some U.S. or European made microphone then I'd be very much
interested in studying the evidence in that matter and then letting everyone
know about what they're doing. I don't like companies that do that and even
if Marshall mics (a company who I like a lot) was doing that, I'd still
speak up and criticize them publicly and very vocally about any illegal
cloning of other people's hard work. But again I wouldn't do that unless
someone had taken the time to study circuit boards and the construction of
these mics while comparing them to the design of a pre-exhisting and
patented design.
> >If any of the Chinese stuff are
> > clones, then the manufacturers of the original hardware, can sue in at
least
> > the country from which they are based so that the Chinese product and
their
> > company can not do business in that country.
>
> and pigs will fly before the giggling stops on the other side of the
> pond.
>
> > It's been done successfully
> > to Behringer.
>
> it took 10 YEARS of this crap from Herr B and the financial moxie of
> MACKIE and sheer determination of Greg to push Behringer to the wall
> and make them surrender on that one... ask Mr Caesar of Aphex.
True. It takes a lot of money. Point taken. However there are ways around
this. For example U.S. audio manufacturers could form their own
organization by pooling funds together for a legal trust fund that would be
specifically for battling this type of cloning. It could also double as a
lobbying group in Washington. It would just take some leadership and
initiative by someone in the audio industry to form such a group.
> > However very similar designs will almost certainly pop up in
> > China and they probably will be based off of classic American/European
> > designs.
>
> Nobody's arguing 'similar designs'...
> Mackie wasn;t arguing 'similar designs' or theyd've launched court
> papers at Yamaha, Peavey and all the other folks making
> Mackie-concept-copies.
> Eve Anna isn;t arguing 'similar designs'...
> It's about simple theft.
I never said Mackie was arguing "similar" designs. I'm not sure where you
got that idea from. However I'm not up to date on EveAnna Manley's problems
with legal issues so I can't comment on that. But I am 100% against cloning
or blatant patent infringment of products. Again if you can name some
examples where you are 100% certain that the product is a clone of a
competitors product (other then Behringer's products) then i'd love to hear
about it. I don't want to argue about rumors.
>
> > SHURE I know used to
> > make mics in Mexico. I'm not sure(shure?) if Shure still does however.
>
> SHURE, SWITCHCRAFT, FENDER and others
>
>
> > At any rate, more then likely I doubt the cost of the mic pres will be a
> > whole lot cheaper given that the high quality parts are expensive.
>
> well now, no... not any more than these $250 'Noimuns' are. Take a good
> pre, build it fast and dirty with bad solder and cheap caps and such
> and yeah... you'll have a Fearn Copy at the price of a VMP2... and
> yaknow what? It won't sound as good. I'm still waiting to see what kind
> of legs these mics have... it's only been a year or so.
So far others examinations of the Marshall mics seem to have been fairly
positive. I'm not too worried about them holding up. If they can give me
10 yrs of service then I'd be happy with my purchase.
> > That is
> > unless China can somehow make cheaper high quality components. Somehow
> > they've done it with microphones...so who knows.
>
> THere's no magic here.
> TANSTAAFL
> China ain;t making a $3k Neumann for $300... they're making a $300 mic.
> If marketters are managing to convince the marks out there that it IS a
> $3k mic for 1/10th the price then it's the custopmer that's getting all
> hinky about the paint job. Used car dealers are nodding in approval all
> across the land.
I'm not claiming that they're making a $300 Neumann. But in my own opinion
companies like Marshall are making some mics that sound a little bit better
then other mics in their price range.
They're also based in the U.S. and are very pleasant, helpful, and
professional when doing business with them. No B.S., they admit to problems
with mics, and are quick to fix the problems. High-end service, for low-end
products. It's a nice thing that's unfortunately not very common these
days.
>
> > Myself, I just want something a little better then my Mackie mic pres
but
> > under $400 because that's all I can justify spending.
>
> what's your idea of 'better' in this case?
A little less edge and a more open sound. Something a bit colored but still
a bit clearer and smoother sounding then the Mackie mic pres would also be
nice.
>
> > I know many here depend on their equipment for their living, or
manufacture
> > audio equipment, so the thought of a flood of cheap but good sounding
> > Chinese audio products flooding the market is I'm sure a very scary
thought.
>
> ahhh good-sounding... reliable... consistant... there are the elements
> of question...
>
> > But it's not the first time something like that has happened. Simply
look
> > at the home studio industry. It's exploded, and it's hurt many studios
> > badly as bedroom project studios like my own take away a lot of business
> > from the big studios.
>
> quantity over quality.. it's a cachet hobby wherein folks think they're
> in biz. It's a cloud propped up and fed and encouraged by the market...
> not since the us Car Craze in the 50's 60's has such nonsense been
> foisted and the money keeps rolling in.
Nice theory anyways. But I record bands to make a little money on the side
and because I enjoy recording. It's art. Pure and simple. I buy the tools
that I can afford that please me and I do my best not to fall for marketing
hype by using my ears and educating myself from professional opinions before
buying audio equipement.
> > High quality gear that I could afford would make my
> > services even more attractive to potential clients.
>
> TANSTAAFL... REAL high quality comes at a price.
> I know nada about your work but taking this on behalf of the 99.44% of
> the folks buying this stuff, the old talent-over-tools thing is there
> in a large way.
>
> 'good enough' can come real cheap. Peavey and Mackie nailed that.
> 'seems like hi quality' is a whole 'nother art... and one that keeps
> most folks separated from their cash on a regular basis.
Well it's that or I'd have to go find another hobby (or be stuck with even
crappier gear).
Should recording only be for those willing to sacrifice all their cash for
high end gear or only for those who are rich or doing recording as a
profession? Should there be laws against home studios?
> > But unless a law is
> > passed to ban the practice, then I'm going to continue to make a little
> > money on the side from my expensive hobby. So while cheap Chinese
> > professional mic preamps may sound like a nightmare to you, to me, as
long
> > as they are on the up and up and aren't outright stealing designs (like
> > Behringer), then I'd be more then happy to buy them as otherwise I'd
> > probably never get a chance to buy any high end audio equipment.
>
> but cheap chinese knockoffs aren't 'high end audio equipment', they're
> emulations thereof. The good stuff costs and you'll get some when you
> can afford it and justify the expense.
Right. I agree 100%. Like you said the Chinese stuff are "emulations".
But if they sound better then previous "emulations" then I'll buy them as
long as they are not blatant rip-offs of someone else's patented design. If
enough people agree that such and such product is a rip-off of someone
else's design, then I won't buy it.
>
> > So you
> > could look at it this way. Unless my economic status changed
significantly,
> > I'll probably never be able to afford $2000 mic preamps (or even $1000
mic
> > preamps) and would never buy one anyways.
>
> and thus you don't NEED them, however much you WANT them.
Exactly. There are PLENTY of things that I want but don't ABSOLUTELY need.
I could use them for certain, but with the cheaper equipment I can get by
just fine.
>
> > Cheaper mic preamps that sound
> > close to the high end stuff simply gives me access to good sounding
gear.
> > People who CAN afford the high end gear would probably not buy the cheap
> > stuff anyways and would most likely continue to support the high end
audio
> > industries. At least that's my theory.
>
> not a well-thought-out-one. and one that GWB is denying right this
> minute with teh steel industry
Hmmm...I haven't been following the steel industry much. But in general I
have problems with some (not all) of GWB's economic policies. But sometimes
a theory has to fail before enough people are convinced to try another
theory.
>
> > But the budget audio wars will get
> > even more intense I'm sure as the Chinese audio industry continues to
grow.
> > It can't be stopped unless trade tariffs or some type of protective
measures
> > are passed into law. But that causes counter-tarriffs by China and a
host o
> > f other problems. So in general, you can't stop a rock once it gets
> > rolling! (At least not a boulder)
>
> well hell then, let's all go steal stuff form our rich neighbors... I
> mean nobody;s managed to stop burglars for teh entire history of
> humanity so why fight it!
>
> sheeshe...
Sheesh is right...you're missing the point. We should as consumers indeed
vote with our pocketbooks to fight against rip-off companies. But unless
you can point some out with clearly documented facts then they are not
thieves. Yes there have been some instances as EveAnna pointed out
concerning some of her dealings with one of the Chinese factories, but the
mics using her technology need to be pointed out and evaluated. Then as
consumers we can put pressure on those companies marketing those mics to
change their design. Believe it or not but the audio community on the
internet is a fairly powerful force.
But for the most part the Chinese mic manufacturers are simply a very
powerful economic force that are hard to stop in the current world economic
enviornment.
My recommendation is that we stay alert for those that play the "cloning
game" and do our best to document any such clones as much as possible so
that newbies to recording will know which companies are unethical. Myself I
don't buy Behringer equipment for that reason. They currently seem to be
doing it again with their new "Behringer V-Amp" that looks and actually
sounds remarkably similar to the Line 6 POD. My guess is that they're using
the same software as the POD or something extremely similar. I haven't
heard however if whether Line-6 has checked it out yet. It may be modifed
enough where Line 6 can't take any legal action. But I wouldn't be
surprised if some type of legal battle happens over it.
So anyways, on the whole, I agree with you on many things, but I think that
there is a place for these new Chinese audio products. Now if it's just
that you don't like China in general then that's another matter.
Chris G.
EveAnna Manley
> I never said Mackie was arguing "similar" designs. I'm not sure where you
> got that idea from. However I'm not up to date on EveAnna Manley's
problems
> with legal issues so I can't comment on that.
I got no legal issues with anybody... keep it movin' folks-- nothin' to see
here...
> We should as consumers indeed
> vote with our pocketbooks to fight against rip-off companies. But unless
> you can point some out with clearly documented facts then they are not
> thieves. Yes there have been some instances as EveAnna pointed out
> concerning some of her dealings with one of the Chinese factories, but the
> mics using her technology need to be pointed out and evaluated.
Again, my chinese factory rep did indeed help himself to some improvements
we had made to the cirucit board layouts in the CR3A and then offered those
improvements to "another company". Wonderfully, me 'n' this "other company"
are pals and after a little chat "the other company" moved on and did
something innovative on its own. We're all cool now.
Chris G.
recording music that is made fresh right there..there is something about
capturing a song in it's creation that keep it fresh and not stale and
over-rehearsed. For a songwriter with no band, a home studio is a godsend.
It would be EXTREMELY expensive for me to work out songs in a studio. There
simply would be no way for me to afford to do that because often I don't
know how a song will be until I've finished recording it. That may be a
process that takes hours, days, weeks, or maybe even months if it's just a
little idea that I pick away at every once in awhile. For me a home studio
is an absolutely wonderful luxury that I feel blessed to be able to have.
It's like painting. To be able to have your own paints and brushes and to
make your own canvas. Or like photography which you mentioned...to have
one's own camera and photo-development facilities. It gives the
photographer freedom and control of the final product. It makes the results
very special to them...very personal. True some of have different quality
tools, but the artist is still the artist no matter what the tools. The
artists uses what ever tools they can afford unless they live beyone their
means. True I could save up tons of money to go into a studio, but then the
song idea...for me at least...would be long gone like a brief rainbow that
has to be photographed quickly before it disappears. So all I can do is buy
the best tools that I can afford and not go overboard and buy super
expensive stuff that are way out of my budget. If I was running a full-time
professional studio I would take out a loan to buy the necessary equipment,
but I'm not so I'm not stupid enough to do something like that when I'm
having a hard enough time paying back student loans and I don't have a car.
I prefer to live within my means.
So yes, there certainly is no argueing with me on that point because from my
standpoint it's rediculous to even think about going into a professional
studio unless I had a full band with whom I was ready to release a
professionally done CD with. In addition I make some money on the side
recording other bands with my equipment. Partly to pay for new equipment.
It works out quite nicely actually. :)
Chris G.
Mike Rivers <mri...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr992517337k@trad...
hank alrich
> But I record bands to make a little money on the side
> and because I enjoy recording. It's art. Pure and simple. I buy the tools
> that I can afford that please me and I do my best not to fall for marketing
> hype by using my ears and educating myself from professional opinions before
> buying audio equipement.
And you do it really well, better than many who chase a living in it.
hank alrich
> Pure capitalism no. But we're talking about capitalist principles here.
> Consumers want cheap, decent sounding mics...the Chinese do it the
> cheapest...and....BINGO! They start selling lots of mics!
> But you also have to keep in mind that many of these companies are joing
> American/Chinese or European/Chinese operations.
But the Ameri/Euro end is all marketing, and the Chinese end is all a
pittance for the laborer. That's because our own greed is creating a
situation where out of one side of our mouth we talk capitalism and out
of the other side of our mouth we talk about the "capitalist" benefits
of communist state-controlled laborers who have about as much say in the
conditions of their employment as anything with mass on earth has to say
about the law of gravity.
How far back does Marshall's history of mic design go?
Different scenario: I know a man who is one of the world's great experts
about fretted instruments, who eventually decided he wanted to learn
about stringed instruments of the violin family. He quickly became well
informed about that to the point that he became a consultant for
companies who import Chinese made instruments of the fiddle family built
to the lowest possible price. These have all the tonal attraction of a
1" cross-section chunk of chalk dragged across an aging chalkboard mic'd
with a C1000 preamped by an original Mackie and compressed with a 3630.
As in, they sound like icepicks driven through your tympanic membrane.
However, many trips to China to review the work done in the factories
building these instrumental atrocities revealed that among the many
working there, a few were truly capable and inspired craftspersons who
could deliver a much higher quality product, if only they had support
for that kind of work, and the kind of quality woods needed to beget a
decent instrument.
So he started a business of his own. He set up a factory in China,
doubled the craftsperon's wages to thirty bucks a month and imported
good quality, properly aged wood from Europe for them to work with. The
result is quite surprising. My family has the prototype 3/4 cello from
those efforts and it is a fine instrument, and not just for what it cost
relative to others in its class. Good builder, good woods, good
instrument and twice the going rate for the workers. The output of this
project is not one of mass market appeal, becuase these are not the very
cheapest instruments, but the result is a real benefit to the end users
of and the builder of the instruments. The result is a change in the way
the world works at both ends of the supply and demand chain.
Now tell me, Chris, do you see Marshall et al setting up their own
operations with a similar approach, one that brings to the skilled
Chinese worker a new level of compensation for their efforts? Or are
these companies doing their utmost to exploit a despicable situation
wherein labor is the most easily exploited cost item in the equation?
hank alrich
> The cheap stuff I'd probably just use
> as part of mobile recording rigs where I wouldn't worry so much about them
> getting damaged or stolen.
I do a good bit of that kind of work and it's definitely a realm wherein
one wants reliable kit. I take care of the gear and I keep a tight eye
on its physical presence. Most of the time when I interface with
somebody else's rig and part of their kit quits, it's because they
thought the cheap stuff was good enough for the road. It isn't. One
pothole and an axle's busted.
And, I charge more for outside work, so that work helps pay for the
better tools.
Chris G.
then a few people on this NG and other places, who's opinions I trust, have
compared some of these dreaded Chinese mics favorably to fairly expensive
mics...not saying that they were better, but that they sounded far more then
their $200 or $300 price tag. Take for example my Marshall V-67G mic. It's
fairly well built compared to most brands. Nothing alarming in it's
construction to sound off alarm bells. Should it last 20 years? Maybe, but
then again maybe not. I've had Shure SM-57's only last 4 years before
falling apart on me. But my cheaper then dog crap made in god-knows where
Radio Shack condenser mics are still going strong after 7 years. To my ears
and on my cheap mic pres, the V-67 simply sounds better then any of my other
mics. You can argue until your blue that my V-67 is crap but my ears tell
me otherwise. It also suits my checkbook nicely. I'm sorry if it gets you
angry, but I WILL NOT live outside my means and buy some $1000 or $2000
condenser mic when I can barely get by paying off my student loans and other
expenses. Maybe I should just quit recording because I'm hopeless using
Chinese mics and I'm a cheap loser cuz I can't afford expensive mics? Hell
no. They're not Neumanns but they for me they sound perfectly acceptable
and apparently they do also to many professionals who have used them. But
if Shure or Audio Technica, CAD or one of the other "established" brands
makes some new mics in the low end price range that also sound nice then I'd
probably be interested in them also. I certainly won't be getting rid of my
CAD E-200.
As for economics and NAFTA....uh...I dunno, but since NAFTA the U.S. economy
sure did grow.
Whether NAFTA had anything to do with that is another matter which I'm not
qualified to discuss. Perhaps certain types of jobs did go South, but
Mexico is also a HUGE market for the U.S. believe it or not. By boosting
their economy and middle class we get more buyers for our goods as well.
Poor people can only buy our cheap stuff and cigarettes. Maybe we should
sell those Chinese mics to them!!! LOL! But again I may be full of crap on
that as I never studied the issue in great detail. That's just how I see
it.
As for the remote location recording thing, it's good to know that you can
afford to hire professional remote location recording studios that can
afford to stick high-end mics all over the place, but in my world, I'm
talking about recording bands in seedy bars and clubs where I dont' always
have eyes in back of my head to keep track of my mics, plus people have a
tendency to try and spill beer on them...hard enough to keep the beer off my
DAT recorder as people want to put their drinks on it. Right now my
"cheap" mics are my Radio Shack mics which is what I usually use for those
types of remote recording gigs for simple 2 mic to DAT recordings. Of
coarse I only charge like $30-$50 for those rough and dirty live recordings
at bars and clubs. For recording bands at their practice areas, I take all
my good gear, but I make an check list of all my gear to make sure that I
come home with what I brought with me.
At any rate, I suppose the biggest difference in our opinions is that you
see ALL Chinese mics as cheap junk period. To me I see some mediocre
sounding mics but with a few beautiful gems in all those mics..
I don't know if you've ever used a Marshall V-67G...maybe you have and hate
it, but so far my MXL-2001, the V-67G, and the MXL-603S all have performed
very nicely.
If you're curious about my work, I have one song called "Fire Heart" that
features all acoustic instruments that were ALL recorded with the Marshall
MXL-2001 with no eq except for the Bodhran (frame drum) and some light
reverb across the entire mix. The song is at www.mp3.com/wigon. And no
I'm not making any money off of web hits as I'm not on the Mp3.com premium
service. If you think that "Fireheart" is a crappy cheap sounding
recording then that's your opinion. But I'm quite proud of that recording
regardless even if my Ocarina playing is quite bad on it (it was my first
attempt at writing and recording Peruvian style folk music). :)
While it is an MP3, I used a high quality Fraunhofer based encoder and it
still sounds fairly close to the original .wav file. But there is some
slight Mp3 artifacts on the tamborine just a bit. I like to use that song
as an example of what the MXL-2001 (or at least mine) sounds like or for
those who think it's a useless mic. Overall I think that the recording came
out quite smooth and warm sounding. Now remember we're talking about a $100
mic here going into Mackie VLZ mic preamps.
I'm also putting together some mic samples on another mp3.com site but so
far I only have MXL-603 mic samples. I hope to soon add some CAD E-200,
Rode NT-1, and Marshall V-67 samples on their as well soon. But that page
is at www.mp3.com/recording . All the samples on that page are VERY short
and quick to download. If you bother to listen to any of those samples,
when it asks for information, just put in some fake info and not your real
email address and stuff.
However while I like some of the Marshall mics, that doesn't mean I like all
of the Chinese mics. For example, my Rode NT-1 most likely has a chinese
capsule in it. But it's not my favorite mic....very bright, and a little
honky sounding... but it works for certain songs and singers so I keep it
around.
I also tried two of the ADK mics including one of their tube mics. I wasn't
blown away by either and prefered the V-67 in a side by side A/B comparison.
Then recently I heard a recording done with the SE5000 which is a Chinese
made tube condenser mic. Again I was not impressed. The vocals recorded
with it had a harsh spitty sound on the high end that sounded to me like my
Presonus Blue Tube mic preamp with the drive control turned up for a subtle
distortion...not something I like to hear on vocals.
But anyways I'm not trying to convince you that these new Chinese mics are
the greatest thing since sliced bread. Just that their are a few that are
fairly decent and that they are not all Satan spawned.
Chris G.
JnyVee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in message
news:140620011704122648%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com...
Chris G.
think of this idea. Considering that many of these Chinese audio industries
have a tendency of "helping themselves" to other people's designs, do you
think it would be a good thing if U.S. audio companies formed some type of
organization to help file law suits against any of those companies...or at
least against any of those that tried to distribute their product in the
U.S. and Europe? A lot of people mention that the smaller audio companies
here in the U.S. simply can't afford expensive law suits. I can't help but
wonder if perhaps some type of organization of these small industries with a
legal trust fund would help deter Chinese (or anyone's) patent
infringements. That way their U.S. distributors or partners would also put
pressure on them to insure that they cut that crap out.
Maybe that's a bit too idealistic, but I see that as the most
straightforward solution to that problem as I know that small audio
businesses don't have the big legal guns that someone like Greg Mackie has.
What do you think? Bad idea? Old idea that didn't work? Or an idea worth
considering?
Chris G.
EveAnna Manley <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9gbb0d$sge$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
JnyVee
<chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> Do you know for a fact that all
> Chinese audio factories clone designs? Get ideas from other designs maybe,
> but ourtright cloning?
did you miss the notes here about client modifications to a chinamic
showing up verbatim on the next version from that same china factory?
> > it took 10 YEARS of this crap from Herr B and the financial moxie of
> > MACKIE and sheer determination of Greg to push Behringer to the wall
> > and make them surrender on that one... ask Mr Caesar of Aphex.
>
>
> True. It takes a lot of money. Point taken. However there are ways around
> this. For example U.S. audio manufacturers could form their own
> organization by pooling funds together for a legal trust fund that would be
> specifically for battling this type of cloning.
And the UN could get together and rule the world as a unified coherent
whole, feed all with leftovers and beat swoards into plowshares, yeah
it could happen.
> > > However very similar designs will almost certainly pop up in
> > > China and they probably will be based off of classic American/European
> > > designs.
> >
> > Nobody's arguing 'similar designs'...
> > Mackie wasn;t arguing 'similar designs' or theyd've launched court
> > papers at Yamaha, Peavey and all the other folks making
> > Mackie-concept-copies.
> > Eve Anna isn;t arguing 'similar designs'...
> > It's about simple theft.
>
> I never said Mackie was arguing "similar" designs. I'm not sure where you
> got that idea from.
um... from YOU. You're playing fast and loose with 'identical cloning'
and 'similar designs' depending on what point you want to favor at any
moment.
> However I'm not up to date on EveAnna Manley's problems
> with legal issues so I can't comment on that. But I am 100% against cloning
> or blatant patent infringment of products.
so what the heck are you buying chinese lookalikes for?
> I'm not claiming that they're making a $300 Neumann. But in my own opinion
> companies like Marshall are making some mics that sound a little bit better
> then other mics in their price range.
> They're also based in the U.S. and are very pleasant, helpful, and
> professional when doing business with them. No B.S., they admit to problems
> with mics, and are quick to fix the problems.
I agree, what I've seen of Marshall's actions in that vein are great...
but atthe dirt-price they;re doing this at, by the time they;ve
honestly and valiantly serviced their hi failure rate and such,
they'll have made several thousand friends and be fliping burgers.
> > > Cheaper mic preamps that sound
> > > close to the high end stuff simply gives me access to good sounding
> gear.
> > > People who CAN afford the high end gear would probably not buy the cheap
> > > stuff anyways and would most likely continue to support the high end
> audio
> > > industries. At least that's my theory.
> >
> > not a well-thought-out-one. and one that GWB is denying right this
> > minute with teh steel industry
>
> Hmmm...I haven't been following the steel industry much.
Georege is loking like he';s going to cave to Big STeel's whine about
cheaper import steel, while he courts China as a 'trade partner' and
makes us all look like drunk drivers on the international stage.
> But in general I
> have problems with some (not all) of GWB's economic policies.
what policies?
> > > But the budget audio wars will get
> > > even more intense I'm sure as the Chinese audio industry continues to
> grow.
> > > It can't be stopped unless trade tariffs or some type of protective
> measures
> > > are passed into law. But that causes counter-tarriffs by China and a
> host o
> > > f other problems. So in general, you can't stop a rock once it gets
> > > rolling! (At least not a boulder)
> >
> > well hell then, let's all go steal stuff form our rich neighbors... I
> > mean nobody;s managed to stop burglars for teh entire history of
> > humanity so why fight it!
> >
> > sheeshe...
>
> Sheesh is right...you're missing the point.
exactly why I oposed the reductio ad absurdum... you couldn;t mean what
you said so I need you to restate it...
> We should as consumers indeed
> vote with our pocketbooks to fight against rip-off companies. But unless
> you can point some out with clearly documented facts then they are not
> thieves. Yes there have been some instances as EveAnna pointed out
> concerning some of her dealings with one of the Chinese factories, but the
> mics using her technology need to be pointed out and evaluated.
so if you nail a birglar stealing form anothe rhouse, you'd rather be
sure he took somethign from THAT house before you boot him out of your
dresser drawer...?
> But for the most part the Chinese mic manufacturers are simply a very
> powerful economic force that are hard to stop in the current world economic
> enviornment.
So was NAPSTER...
EveAnna Manley
Well, I for one don't have the time nor money to go about trying on some law
suits if ya know what I mean... I like being more productive than that--
focussing on what I get positive vibes from: just designing and
manufacturing plain and simple USA-built good shit! (best we can...)
Componentry *can* come from anywhere-- switzerland, china, japan, korea,
USA, Mexico, Germany, UK, Eastern Bongolia, etc... I care about how good
sounding is that frikkin' capacitor in that circuit and how reliable has he
proved to me that he is more than *where* he was built. I get some stunning
capacitors made right here in California and also get some clever
film-and-foil (not metalized) types made for us in Taiwan, and they are also
superb parts. We also use tons of WIMAs (Germany), and Panasonic (Japan)
caps. And I have been purchasing hundreds of thousands of these few brands
for over 12 years and they have definitely proven themselves to me AND to
you guys in the gear. Just talking about filmcaps as an example...
So some folks are going to hear that we do care this much about even a
little stupid 0.027uF coupling cap and probably guess that we probably do
care a lot about all this stuff we do and so maybe you'll go hear one of our
boxes and hopefully like the sum-result of all this effort we've earnestly
put into it. And maybe you won't and that's fine too. Or maybe you can't
afford it and that is also fine. I can't afford a new Ferrari either...
So say you do go score one of our new boxes and dammit if that lovely 027uF
doesn't open up and die anyway. Oh well. You know at least we'll back it up
and fix it and fast and nicely too.
There are some of youze cuzzomars who still do value quality and support and
you guys are the dudes we are most happy to deal with.
As far as defending against other folks ripping off designs, ya know, the
world's a small place these days. We gotz gutz of microphone jpgs 'splayed
open on the 'net, in depth discussion on the groups, trade shows every other
month, magazines reporting on the happenings. But it is you guys with the
ears and the wallets. And hopefully lots of manufacturers left out there
with a sense of decency and a spark of creativity... and maybe you guys get
to know who is who with all this info flying around, and maybe you still
care.
And maybe these new cheap 'n' cheerful ripoffs will eventually beat us all
at our own game. Look what the Japanese did to the British motorcycle
industry in the '60's? And didn't we used to build lots of cameras in the
good ol' U.S. of A a long time ago?
It's nice that there are guys left who wanna buy a real Triumph.
Chris G.
times, and I'll say it again. Unless anyone can prove that working
conditions and wages such at the Chinese factories used by Marshall (or any
other mic manufacturer in China), are terrible, then it's not even worth
debating. I don't like debating over rumors. However perhaps others here
in the mic business, who have toured the 797 facilities (and other mic
factories) in China, can comment on how their employees are treated and what
the facilities are like. It would be interesting to know all of that
information. But for all we know they may be getting payed relatively high
wages. Then again they may not. I for one would be interested in knowing.
But I seriously doubt those people work there with an AK-47 to their heads
as many here like to believe.
But on a serious note, I am VERY curious how much those violins your friend
makes cost. I'm actually thinking about buying a first violin. I was just
thinking about buying a Rogue electric violin just to mess around with a bit
for very simple slow parts on recordings. They cost around $300. But if
there was some excellent sounding acoustic violins for $300-$500 I might be
interested.
Chris G.
hank alrich <walk...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1ev0816.yn...@209-162-27-158.thegrid.net...
Chris G.
All good points. I just wish I knew which of these Chinese made mics were
real rip-offs (circuitry-wise). I wouldn't buy them if I knew and I'm sure
many other consumers wouldn't buy them if they knew as well. Of coarse
maybe it doesn't really matter because the manufacturers use cheap parts
with low tolerances that will never match the specs of the original
microphone.
Anyways, if I ever have the $$, I would be sure to buy at least one Manley
product without a doubt.
But until then I just gotta stick with the best that I can afford and it's
difficult to just ignore some of these Chinse made mics, just as it's
difficult to ignore the Russian made Octava mics or some of the Sure, Beyer,
Audix, CAD, and Audio Technica mics. As for service one of the reasons I'm
a big supporter of the Marshall mics is because they're the first low end
mic manufacturer that has provided me with very personal, quick, and
satisfying customer service. It's hard not to give some loyalty to a
manufacturer that does that for their customers as that's usually a sign
that they care about their products as well. But unless all these new guys
start trying to make ultra high-end mics to compete with the Manley stuff at
least you shouldn't have to worry too much about competition. Personally I
hope that they don't try to do that.
Chris G.
EveAnna Manley <van...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9gc3et$q3e$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Mike Rivers
> And you do it really well, better than many who chase a living in it.
And better than many of the people who THINK they can make music if
only they had a studio where they could spend all the time it takes
without paying for it by the hour. I'm not talking about the
exceptions, I'm talking about the great unwashed masses that keep
the mass market music dealers and the manufacturers they support in
business.
Mark Plancke
>To my ears
>and on my cheap mic pres, the V-67 simply sounds better then any of my other
>mics. You can argue until your blue that my V-67 is crap but my ears tell
>me otherwise.
This is also a big problem with these microphones as I see it. What
happens when you do get a nice mic pre-amp and a high resolution
monitoring environment, suddenly you realize that the mic you thought
sounded great now sounds like finger nails on a chalk board, but hey
that Neumann all of sudden sounds really, really good. You can tell me
that you'll never get a decent mic pre-amp or a decent monitoring
environment so it doesn't matter, but you'll still be selling yourself
short IMO. Great tools make your job easier not harder. I've been
through this scenario in my studio and I've proved to myself that
buying quality equipment is well worth the added expense in the long
run.
>It also suits my checkbook nicely. I'm sorry if it gets you
>angry, but I WILL NOT live outside my means and buy some $1000 or $2000
>condenser mic when I can barely get by paying off my student loans and other
>expenses. Maybe I should just quit recording because I'm hopeless using
>Chinese mics and I'm a cheap loser cuz I can't afford expensive mics? Hell
>no.
No, you shouldn't stop recording. But why not wait until you can buy
two or three shitty mics and go and buy something nice that you'll
love to death for a long, long time. Hey, I could go to Macdonalds
everyday but I prefer to save my money and have a really nice NY Strip
instead.
>They're not Neumanns but they for me they sound perfectly acceptable
>and apparently they do also to many professionals who have used them.
Please see above.
>At any rate, I suppose the biggest difference in our opinions is that you
>see ALL Chinese mics as cheap junk period. To me I see some mediocre
>sounding mics but with a few beautiful gems in all those mics..
>I don't know if you've ever used a Marshall V-67G...maybe you have and hate
>it, but so far my MXL-2001, the V-67G, and the MXL-603S all have performed
>very nicely.
I've used them, I wasn't impressed. Everyone has their own audio
nirvana, mine wasn't satisfied by the Marshalls. I have KM84's and
U87's so it's easy for me to compare, I don't have to rely on other
peoples opinions. I rely on my own ears and what pleases me.
>If you're curious about my work, I have one song called "Fire Heart" that
>features all acoustic instruments that were ALL recorded with the Marshall
>MXL-2001 with no eq except for the Bodhran (frame drum) and some light
>reverb across the entire mix. The song is at www.mp3.com/wigon. And no
>I'm not making any money off of web hits as I'm not on the Mp3.com premium
>service.
Chris, you're song sounds very good. No one is saying that if it works
for you, you shouldn't use it. By all means do so.
It would be interesting to hear that song redone in my studio to hear
what the differences would be, wouldn't it be interesting for you to
hear?
Chris G.
> In article <tiiammt...@corp.supernews.com>, "Chris G."
> <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> > Do you know for a fact that all
> > Chinese audio factories clone designs? Get ideas from other designs
maybe,
> > but ourtright cloning?
>
> did you miss the notes here about client modifications to a chinamic
> showing up verbatim on the next version from that same china factory?
No EveAnna set me straight on that.
>
> > > it took 10 YEARS of this crap from Herr B and the financial moxie of
> > > MACKIE and sheer determination of Greg to push Behringer to the wall
> > > and make them surrender on that one... ask Mr Caesar of Aphex.
> >
> >
> > True. It takes a lot of money. Point taken. However there are ways
around
> > this. For example U.S. audio manufacturers could form their own
> > organization by pooling funds together for a legal trust fund that would
be
> > specifically for battling this type of cloning.
>
> And the UN could get together and rule the world as a unified coherent
> whole, feed all with leftovers and beat swoards into plowshares, yeah
> it could happen.
Hey you gotta start somewhere. Just like the U.N. isn't perfect, but it's
done a lot of good in this world. If U.S. microphone manufacturers feel
threatened enough they'll join forces to stop patent infringment....well at
least if they're smart they will. At the very least they could so
something as simple as setting up a web site showing circuit diagrams of
original patented designs and those of their Chinese competitors showing
similarities or identical designs. But maybe the threat is not that bad, or
at least not yet.
>
>
> > > > However very similar designs will almost certainly pop up in
> > > > China and they probably will be based off of classic
American/European
> > > > designs.
> > >
> > > Nobody's arguing 'similar designs'...
> > > Mackie wasn;t arguing 'similar designs' or theyd've launched court
> > > papers at Yamaha, Peavey and all the other folks making
> > > Mackie-concept-copies.
> > > Eve Anna isn;t arguing 'similar designs'...
> > > It's about simple theft.
> >
> > I never said Mackie was arguing "similar" designs. I'm not sure where
you
> > got that idea from.
>
> um... from YOU. You're playing fast and loose with 'identical cloning'
> and 'similar designs' depending on what point you want to favor at any
> moment.
I said that Mackie was suing Behringer over a similar design???? I don't
recall saying that. What I did say is that I am against cloning which is
what Behringer did right down to the circuit board and even the manuals in
some cases. With the Chinese mics most people (with the exception of a
few companies that noted some copying of designs) are pissed off because the
damn Chinese mics look like Neumanns or C-12's or Brauners or something.
Personally to me they all look fairly similar and often to get certain sonic
characteristics you HAVE to design a mic enclosure and grill a certain way
from what I understand. But the Chinese guys weren't the first to do that.
That's always been done in the mic industry. Look at how many mics look
like an SM-58.
By your logic then I should also quit buying any CAD, Shure, Rode, Oktava,
or Audio Technica mic that looks like a more expensive Neumann, Manley,
Brauner, Lawson, ect... mic?
> > However I'm not up to date on EveAnna Manley's problems
> > with legal issues so I can't comment on that. But I am 100% against
cloning
> > or blatant patent infringment of products.
>
> so what the heck are you buying chinese lookalikes for?
WHICH ONES!!!! AAaAAAAAARGGG!!!!!! PLEASE TELL ME WHICH MICS ARE IDENTICAL
CLONES TO SOME OTHER MIC!!! PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > I'm not claiming that they're making a $300 Neumann. But in my own
opinion
> > companies like Marshall are making some mics that sound a little bit
better
> > then other mics in their price range.
> > They're also based in the U.S. and are very pleasant, helpful, and
> > professional when doing business with them. No B.S., they admit to
problems
> > with mics, and are quick to fix the problems.
>
> I agree, what I've seen of Marshall's actions in that vein are great...
> but atthe dirt-price they;re doing this at, by the time they;ve
> honestly and valiantly serviced their hi failure rate and such,
> they'll have made several thousand friends and be fliping burgers.
From what I understand they are working fairly closely with their Chinese
factory to insure high QC. It probably won't happen overnight, but they
seem very serious about becoming major contenders in the mic market. At any
rate, I don't think they'll end up flipping burgers.
> >
> > Hmmm...I haven't been following the steel industry much.
>
> Georege is loking like he';s going to cave to Big STeel's whine about
> cheaper import steel, while he courts China as a 'trade partner' and
> makes us all look like drunk drivers on the international stage.
>
> > But in general I
> > have problems with some (not all) of GWB's economic policies.
>
> what policies?
Total deregulation for one.
Good for industry...bad for consumers is my opinion.
Again please tell me who is stealing what. I'm getting tired of argueing
vague notions of theft when I have yet to hear from ANYONE WHO THE HELL IS
STEALING WHAT!!!! Maybe everyone's too busy with their businesses to
bother documenting any of it. It must not be that much of a threat then.
If no one is sure who's doing what, then it's useless to debate it. I
already asked EveAnna about the copying incident, but she politely told me
that the problem was solved with a simple chat with the competitor who was
using that Chinese factories copied design, so wisely she didn't name names
as it never became a problem.
Still if anyone knows about any other designs that they are certain are
cloned (aside from cosmetic appearances). I'd honestly like to know.
> > But for the most part the Chinese mic manufacturers are simply a very
> > powerful economic force that are hard to stop in the current world
economic
> > enviornment.
>
> So was NAPSTER...
(sigh).
Apples and Oranges. Once again you're talking about blatant copyright
infringement, when I have yet to see a strong case made against any of these
Chinese factories or their clients. Behringer is so far they only company
using Chinese factories that have been proven to have products which used
blatant cloning of other people's designs.
Now if you want to argue strictly outside appearances, then that's another
matter. But again, if it bothers the big high-end manufacturers enough,
then they have the resources to pursue lawsuits.
Chris G.
Luke Kaven
MARVIN PAUL THOMAS <thepau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f290bcd4.01061...@posting.google.com...[...]
> For all of you that are following this thread I highly recommend
> purchasing a copy of "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand so
> that you can read her fine explanation of copyrights and patents. Or
> if you want a longer but more entertaining explanation just pick up
> her novel "The Fountaihead". But be warned that in "the Fountainhead"
> Rand makes no bones about telling it like it is and after reading it
> some of you will not like seeing what you really are (intellectual
> thieves-parasites).---THE PAUL THOMAS---
Be sure to keep an air-sickness bag handy -- Ayn Rand was a terrible
philosopher who spawned a cult of extreme right-wing zealots.
Skunkie
> I dunno I guess ya had some bad experiences with the Chinese mics, but more
> then a few people on this NG and other places, who's opinions I trust, have
> compared some of these dreaded Chinese mics favorably to fairly expensive
> mics...not saying that they were better, but that they sounded far more then
> their $200 or $300 price tag.
Our experience with the Marshalls has also been good. But you get what
you pay for. I think with proper care, any microphone will last a very
long time. Hell, I sometimes use an old (and very cheap) Phillips mic
which came from a long buried cassette recorder - has to be 30 years
old, at least. It works nicely for "phone-booth" vocal effects.
The sound value for money of Chinese mics can be very, very good. It
bothers people making mid-priced gear because it forces them to work
harder at making their products better. That is the main reason why
people are squawking.
A similar thing happened with shop hand tools a while back. Stores
were getting flooded with cheap copies of Vise and Snap-On
look-a-likes. Often the Chinese copies cost ten percent of the real
thing, and looked almost identical. The precision wasn't there
however, so you had to be careful how they were used. But they were,
and still are good for certain jobs where you don't want to bring out
the good stuff. It didn't change a thing for the high end stuff.
The fact that the product comes from China is irrelevant IMO. There is
room for both.
Brad Lunde
>and
>P-basses? I'm not saying anyones right or wrong but lets get real. I doubt
>that
>the Studio Projects mics are going to impact Dirk's mics. If anything people
>might be inspired to save the cash for his mics after seeing and using the
>SP's. How are a $200 mic and a $4000 anything alike other then both being
>microphones? They're targeted to very different customers. If the SP mics
>were
>in the $1500-2500 range I'd give your arguement a little more weight.
>
>---
>-Jay Kahrs
>Owner - Engineer - Producer
Well here's the argument from my angle.
I've worked hard to build the reputation of a brand, Brauner, in the US. One
of the easiest ways to gain a little recognition is the look of the mic. "Oh
that's a M49 or whatever." This kind of thing adds to brand value. Then
Studio Projects comes along and copies it exactly, same color, mesh, head
grile, etc...Now they benefit from the visual connection I have built or have
yet to build, and I lose because suddenly "that Brauner look" may really be of
a crap mic that no one wants.
Now, due to the copy, Studio Projects is in a position to influence my
Brauners directly. That's the core argument. It draws up their perceived
value while it lowers mine.
Brad Lunde
TransAmerica Audio Group, Inc
http://www.transaudiogroup.com
702-365-5155 Voice, 702-365-5145 Fax
US sales for AEA, API, Brauner, Drawmer, FMR, Soundelux & SoundField
m d
the issues that she brings up, such as the dumbing down of art and
literature are totally on target. The beginnings of the "political
correctness" nonsense are also identified. And of course in Atlas Shrugged
the ending of the book coincides with a large scale blackout, due mostly to
incompetence and over-regulation. That sounds a bit familiar huh? My guess
is that you are so used to the liberal mindset that you find in most of
academia (Rutgers as well, I'm sure) that you blanche at any other
viewpoint. Have you actually read either of her novels?
MD
"Luke Kaven" <ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> wrote in message
news:9gdc65$67i$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu...
Robert Blank
considering that the book was written over 50 years ago, it is CHILLING
to hear such prophetic vision....
m d <mdis...@usa.net> wrote:
--
Bob Blank BLANK PRODUCTIONS USA / your music production resource
email: b...@blankproductions.com (remove NOSPAM from reply )
web: http://www.blankproductions.com
203-938-7900 ext 319
Jay Kahrs
>I've worked hard to build the reputation of a brand, Brauner, in the US. One
>of the easiest ways to gain a little recognition is the look of the mic. "Oh
>that's a M49 or whatever." This kind of thing adds to brand value. Then
>Studio Projects comes along and copies it exactly, same color, mesh, head
>grile, etc...Now they benefit from the visual connection I have built or have
>yet to build, and I lose because suddenly "that Brauner look" may really be
>of
>a crap mic that no one wants.
>Now, due to the copy, Studio Projects is in a position to influence my
>Brauners directly. That's the core argument. It draws up their perceived
>value while it lowers mine.
>
I can see the similarities between the Brauner and the SP mics but I also see
some differences. Let's face it, they both come from the C12 family as EveAnna
pointed out. I haven't read all of the SP ad copy but I really don't see how it
could compete and influence the Brauners. I can see what Alan is doing by using
Manley's name all the time and Neumann once or twice in the groups but I
haven't seen him mention Brauner once until you and Fletcher brought it up.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Engineer - Producer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
JnyVee
<chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> Anyways, if I ever have the $$, I would be sure to buy at least one Manley
> product without a doubt.
> But until then I just gotta stick with the best that I can afford and it's
> difficult to just ignore some of these Chinse made mics, just as it's
> difficult to ignore the Russian made Octava mics or some of the Sure, Beyer,
> Audix, CAD, and Audio Technica mics.
and there lies the snare: if you haven't got the self-control and/or
desire and/or simple focus it takes to HOLD OFF from buying 3 big
Marshalls and 4 Oktavas because you believe there is a very real
benefit to having in their stead ONE Neumann/Manley/BLUE/Lawson, then
you are actually clearly and agressively choosing NOT to own the better
mic since the money is being spent NOW, continuously, on the cheaper
stuff because, you (in my best Veruca Salt voise) Want It Now. It's the
deal. It's what these marketters of Lovely Lookalikes are counting
on... your impatience. And they usually win since most folks don;t
really care about what they claim they do.
You never get a BMW by buying 4 Kia's instead.
Bruce McIntyre
Chris G. wrote in message ...
>
>All good points. I just wish I knew which of these Chinese made mics were
>real rip-offs (circuitry-wise). I wouldn't buy them if I knew and I'm
sure
>many other consumers wouldn't buy them if they knew as well.
And again, if you buy quality mic from a respected and quality vendor,
you never have to worry about it. That is part of the gamble when you
insist on buying cheap crap.
>But until then I just gotta stick with the best that I can afford and it's
>difficult to just ignore some of these Chinse made mics, just as it's
>difficult to ignore the Russian made Octava mics or some of the Sure,
Beyer,
>Audix, CAD, and Audio Technica mics.
It's not hard to ignore at all. You accept the fact that they are cheap
crap,
ignore them, move on and choose from the vendors and models that are
not cheap crap. Very simple. When you argue for hours on end to justify
the cheap crap you'll buy only serves to keep you in the uneducated and
amater status. Don't get me wrong. Buy your cheap crap, enjoy it and
make beautiful music with it, but give us a break and don't try argue how
great it is for the money. Spend you time making music, not defending
your lack of budget for quality tools.
>As for service one of the reasons I'm
>a big supporter of the Marshall mics is because they're the first low end
>mic manufacturer that has provided me with very personal, quick, and
>satisfying customer service.
What service is that you need? Ya, if you buy cheap crap where you have to
spend hours to find the least defective item, take it home and it takes a
shit,
your gonna want and need some service, but again, if you buy a quality item
from a respected and quallity vendor, your not likely to need service, and
if
and when the rare times that you do, you'll get it. That's part of how a
respected
vendor gets respect.
Bruce McIntyre
JnyVee
<chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm...I haven't been following the steel industry much.
> >
> > Georege is loking like he';s going to cave to Big STeel's whine about
> > cheaper import steel, while he courts China as a 'trade partner' and
> > makes us all look like drunk drivers on the international stage.
> >
> > > But in general I
> > > have problems with some (not all) of GWB's economic policies.
> >
> > what policies?
>
> Total deregulation for one.
uh.. that was an insulting pun I did there... as in
"policies? Bush actually has POLICIES??"
the man's an embarassing loose cannon...
> > > But for the most part the Chinese mic manufacturers are simply a very
> > > powerful economic force that are hard to stop in the current world
> economic
> > > enviornment.
> >
> > So was NAPSTER...
>
> (sigh).
> Apples and Oranges.
nope... when you flood the market with ersatz product that LOOKS like
an incredible Deal (or apparently FREE in naposters case of freely
organising the system of giving away stuff that was stolen) adn thuis
displace the real balance of value... you cause real buisnesses to fall
over and die and then you have a clearer field.. You do this by massive
subsidising, whether from unfairly depressed labor rates, government
support or other combinations, so you can survive the short term
(years) heavy losses from your price cuts and the othe rplayers drop
out. It is indeed unfair when done, and rarely is it so clearcut, so
like knowing how to bang the pinball machine and not tilti it, you
cheat as far as you can. The bigger you are, the more you can do it and
hide it.
I avoid walking into a CVS since they;ve agressively nailed almost
every small pharmacy I used to frequent. I have 3 still, none in
walking distance... I drove farther now but I'm happier.
> Once again you're talking about blatant copyright
> infringement, \
nope.. talking Product Displacement.
akammen
One's political orientation should not distract one from the fact that Ayn
Rand was a dreadful novelist, breathtakingly bad: wooden characterizations,
schematic plotting and dialog that no human being would (or should) ever
utter.
Her problem (aside from issues of artistic talent) was trying to cram a work
of imagination into the unyielding constraints of a political system. It
didn't work for Soviet Social Realism. And it didn't work for "Atlas
Shrugged."
Politics always makes for dreary art.
Alan
in article tikravh...@corp.supernews.com, m d at mdis...@usa.net wrote
on 6/15/01 3:15 PM:
steve
Good FAQ material there, Johnny. It ought to be posted to every what's
the best budget mic for xxx.
I have held off buying any of the current crop of Chinese mic's only to
wonder if I might need some of the flavors. But then I have a suitcase
full of old Shure, EV, Beyer that I pickup for cheap at yardsales,
pawnshops and whatnot. Plenty of flavors for not much dough.
Steve
Chris G.
at least I should damn well hope so!
Chris G.
Brad Lunde <tran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010615155618...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Isaac Crawford
Give me a break... There are many people that are not setting up a
commercial studio, they just want to record their stuff. For most of
these people, there are set limits as to what kind of money they can
spend on stuff. There is no way an amateur can rationalize a $5000 mic,
and many have trouble coming up with $2000... Me, I'd much rather have
the 3 Marshalls and 4 Octavas than one of anything. Not a hell of a lot
that you can do with a single mic... Lets see, if I can save up $300 for
a mic, or wait ten times as long for a $3000 mic, which do you think I
should do? Who does it benefit if I can't record what I want?
In the end its "horses for courses"... The idea that a $150 or $300 mic
will affect the sales of a $1500 or $3000 mic is stupid. People buying
the cheap stuff will never buy the high end stuff (cause they'd rather
have a used car), and the people that depend on the quality and
reliability of the high end stuff won't gamble with the cheap stuff...
I sell camera stuff for a living. If you came in and asked me which
camera would give you the best results shooting concerts from the wings
with available light (no flash), had to be as quiet as possible, and
give outstanding results I'd say a Leica M6 with either a 50mm f1 or a
75mm f1.4. That will be $5500 please... After you stop yelling at me,
telling me that there is no way you can afford it, I would just say,
well why don't you save up for it... Well, my daughter's recital is
tonight. I guess that's poor planning on your part isn't it?:-) I'd
probably end up selling you a $1000 digital camera. Would it give as
good a result? Will it last as long or be as flexible? No, but it will
do, especially since you don't do it all the time, and its strictly for
casual use...
Isaac
>
> --
> <Help Keep The Net Emoticon-free!>
Why?
Isaac Crawford
>
> True but anyone who is able to afford a Brauner mic would know better....or
> at least I should damn well hope so!
> Chris G.
>
Exactly! I cannot envision a situation where someone would be trying to
decide between a Brauner mic and one that is $150... The person who will
by one will not look at the other...
Isaac
Chris G.
Yeah I think you're right about the cheap mic on a high end mic preamp
thing. I know that with the MXL-2001 that from all acounts it can sound
much harsher on something like a Great River mic preamp. I don't know
about the V-67G. A few people have tried it on some high end mic preamps
and liked it. But yeah I know they're not Neumanns. True I could wait and
save and save for something like a Neumann, but that money would be best
used to buy a car or pay for college tuition for my graduate studies. I
just can't justify spending that money when it's just a hobby. I REALLY
wish I could. But in my current situation and that of others who have low
incomes and who just do this as a hobby it just doesn't make a whole lot of
sense to invest in high-end equipment, when tommorow it may all end up in
the pawn shop. When I'm more financially secure, then yes...OH YES I will
certainly invest in some good gear and will revel in it and thank God to be
so lucky. But until then I'm pretty damn happy to be able to own something
like a V-67.
I'm also quite sure that my recording (which I thank you for taking the time
to listen to), would have sounded even better in your studio. But it also
would have sounded worse with any of my other mics and I may have never
captured that song if I didn't have the gear near at hand to capture it as
the ideas suddenly entered my head and feelings began to flow. Oh how I
wish I had a Great River mic preamp to run into my DAW system along with
some nice Neumann, B.L.U.E., Lawson, and Manley mics. Ah I would be in
heaven! But I was happy to be able to get a decent recording with the
tools I had at hand and the MXL-2001 made it possible for me to get a nice
smooth texture that was impossible with my other mics and which was pretty
much what I was looking for. If I can make more decent quality recordings
like that (and I have) then the microphone pays for itself and I feel
satisfied. While it may not be "high art" it's still art worth listening to
I hope.
But perhaps one day I will re-record those songs with better equipment. But
that day is still some time away.
Chris G.
Mark Plancke <Ma...@Soundtechrecording.com> wrote in message
news:je9kitgqsde10drp9...@4ax.com...
Chris G.
I still disagree about the Napster comparison as I view Napster as straight
up outright theft period. Very clear cut theft in my opinion. I haven't
seen that yet in the Chinese mics...doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I
would like to know if it does happen cuz if one of them starts blatantly
stealing circuit designs I'll be right with you screaming at them to take
their crap back to China. But I also know enough to realize that microphone
design is often based from older mics and designs so similarities are bound
to happen. But identical cloning of designs..... that pisses me off when
companies engage in that practice. If you do a Google search under my emal
address and "Behringer" you'll see that I've been extremely vocal protesting
against Behringer's unethical practices. That's also partly because for a
short time their salesguys were doing some extremely nasty stuff on usenet
which pissed me off in a very bad way. As far as I can tell they're still
up to their old tricks. Unrepentant to the end I guess.
As for unfair trade advantages...I agree....China's government support and
subsidies definitely give them a huge advantage over U.S. companies in many
cases. But it's up to politicians and beurocrats to solve those problems.
That means the Audio industry here in the U.S. has to speak up and get them
to take notice if they see some unfair stuff going on. But I don't know if
that's the case with the Chinese microphone industry. Maybe, maybe not. It
would be interesting to actually talk with some of the English speaking reps
at those factories to get a feel for how they do business and what role the
Chinese government plays in their businesses. There are people here on
this NG who work directly with those Chinese factories. I wish they would
speak up a bit on what they've learned or seen in their experiences with the
Chinese. My guess is that the heads of alot of those companies graduated
from universities here in the U.S. majoring in business. They probably know
us only too well while Americans in general (including many businesses) know
very little about their competitors in China.
Corporations know that you can't always count on consumers to change things.
That's why they have lobbiests to make things happen in Washington. In
the audio industry, sure they can hope that consumers won't buy cheap
Chinese mics, but it's most likely not going to happen. For real change
they're gonna have to get politicaly active if they see a real threat to
their industry.
Or they can do what so many audio businesses are doing and simply form
partnerships with their Chinese competitors. That has it's own set of
dangers and rewards.
It's a complicated world but right now I don't see huge problems. In
general the Chinese mics aren't much cheaper then the new condenser mics
being put out by other U.S. and European manufacturers of budget mics. The
reason? Because many of them are using those Chinese factories for either
parts or some of their production. So more then likely I imagine we'll end
up with a fairly even playing field. At least that's what I hope just as I
hope that China will continue to inch slowly (or quickly) towards democracy
until eventually they'll just like any of our other allies in Europe (some
of whom have socialist governments by the way).
> I avoid walking into a CVS since they;ve agressively nailed almost
> every small pharmacy I used to frequent. I have 3 still, none in
> walking distance... I drove farther now but I'm happier.
Yeah, good old' style pharmacies are hard to find these days and yes
comparisons can be made to many businesses. For example I support FMR Audio
for many of the same reasons which I like the Marshall company. They both
give old fashioned customer service and make a decent product. Mackie is
another company that has treated me well as did Line 6 and Gadget Labs (I'm
still mystified why they went out of business cuz they were selling lots of
sound cards last I heard). But capitalism often isn't very fair. The
market is a fickle beast as are consumers. That's one reason why I believe
in *some* regulation if things get way out of hand. I also believe in
working strongly to equal trade with other countries like China were there
are big trade imbalances. I'm also hoping that U.S. politicians will help
convince Chinese politicians to crack down more on copyright infringement
and create stronger laws in that country. But under the current hostile
climate in U.S.-China relations I doubt that will happen very soon. But
right now they need us more then we need them, and we got the leverage to
push them to make changes like that.
Anyways....God, if I was an economist I could probably REALLY get into the
meat and potatoes of U.S./Chinese trade issues. It really is a fascinating
and very important subject.
> > Once again you're talking about blatant copyright
> > infringement, \
>
> nope.. talking Product Displacement.
Hmmm....it's possible but what products? Most of the U.S. budget mic
manufacturers have many more types of mics other then large diaphragm
condenser mics. If they're smart I think they'll do just fine as long as
they diversify. Personally I wish more budget mic manufacturers would make
some nice inexpensive ribbon mics. That's one type of mic I still don't
have.
But as far as the high end market goes. I don't think they have much to
worry about. As others have said...the Chinese stuff is just emulations
made from cheap parts and subsitutions. They may sound decent, but they
still not the real deal. So I dont' think they have to worry much about
losing sales.
But whatever happens, I think that the next few years will prove interesting
for the microphone industry.
Chris G.
Chris G.
True, but my Marshalls still wouldnt' add up to even half the cost of a
Neumann TLM-103. My other condenser mics I bought long ago....sorry man I'm
not gonna save up for years to buy one mic no matter how good it is. I have
other things I'd rather save up for that matter more to me right now.
I actually have $12,000 in savings right now, but that's for my graduate
studies and for emergencies so no I'm not some kid who wants instant
gratification. However I am someone who knows how to set priorities in
life and in my hobbies. Over a period of many years I may only be able to
afford 4 Kia's. True I could save up for many many years for a BMW, but
then for all those years I would be without a car. I think I'd be happier
just sticking to a car I could afford and that gets the job done in a
perfectly acceptable manner.
Chris G.
Jay Kahrs
>at least I should damn well hope so!
That's a very good point and one that I didn't think needed to be made.
Although I might buy something like cheap SP mics and still have the
Lawsons/Blue/Brauner/Nuemann mics in the locker.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Engineer - Producer
Chris G.
before I knew you also posted your email to me on RAP as well).
Bruce McIntyre <Audi...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:JCvW6.624$8N7.42...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Chris G. wrote in message ...
> >
> >All good points. I just wish I knew which of these Chinese made mics
were
> >real rip-offs (circuitry-wise). I wouldn't buy them if I knew and I'm
> sure
> >many other consumers wouldn't buy them if they knew as well.
>
> And again, if you buy quality mic from a respected and quality vendor,
> you never have to worry about it. That is part of the gamble when you
> insist on buying cheap crap.
Ah one man's crap is another's treasure. It must be nice to able to afford
beautiful high end equipment and I envy you. But to me and most people with
modest home studios *some* of these mics represent a good value for the
money.
>
> >But until then I just gotta stick with the best that I can afford and
it's
> >difficult to just ignore some of these Chinse made mics, just as it's
> >difficult to ignore the Russian made Octava mics or some of the Sure,
> Beyer,
> >Audix, CAD, and Audio Technica mics.
>
> It's not hard to ignore at all. You accept the fact that they are cheap
> crap,
> ignore them, move on and choose from the vendors and models that are
> not cheap crap. Very simple. When you argue for hours on end to justify
> the cheap crap you'll buy only serves to keep you in the uneducated and
> amater status. Don't get me wrong. Buy your cheap crap, enjoy it and
> make beautiful music with it, but give us a break and don't try argue how
> great it is for the money. Spend you time making music, not defending
> your lack of budget for quality tools.
I wouldn't be defending mself for buying these mics if people weren't
attacking me over it. To me it's silly that people get so emotional over
these mics like they're satan spawned or something.
Take the the Marshall V-67G. No it's not a Neumann, it's not a
Manley...it's a $300 mic that happens to sound decent. What is the big
deal????? Why are people getting so upset because I happen to think that
it's a good thing???
>
> >As for service one of the reasons I'm
> >a big supporter of the Marshall mics is because they're the first low end
> >mic manufacturer that has provided me with very personal, quick, and
> >satisfying customer service.
>
> What service is that you need? Ya, if you buy cheap crap where you have
to
> spend hours to find the least defective item, take it home and it takes a
> shit,
> your gonna want and need some service, but again, if you buy a quality
item
> from a respected and quallity vendor, your not likely to need service, and
> if
> and when the rare times that you do, you'll get it. That's part of how a
> respected
> vendor gets respect.
>
> Bruce McIntyre
That's all fine and good Bruce, but maybe my time is not as valuable as your
time. For me it's not that much of a hassle as long as I know I'm getting a
nice sounding tool to my ears. I've done A/B tests and compared the
Marshall stuff to Neumann mics and yes I hear some differences and think the
TLM-103 for example is a super mic on my voice. But the V-67 gets me pretty
damn close and also does a great job on my voice. To me and even alot of
pros, it's a perfectly acceptable tool. I didn't need to spend hours
testing them out either. I just tried out 4 of them, didn't hear any
differences, and bought one. Very simple. With my MXL-2001 I heard a
slight difference in one and bought that one because it had a little more
bass pickup. It turned out to be a very good decision as it makes for a
superb kick drum mic My MXL 603S condenser was defective when I ordered
it. Marshall fixed the problem mic quickly and efficiently. They answer
my emails quickly and they've never BS'd me about problems with their mics.
They're also quick to fix those problems. What is so bad about that fact
that I find that kind of service really amazing.
I also bought the mic knowing full well about the potential problem. That
is a risk I took, but I took it knowing Marshall would back me up if I got a
defective one and they did. I am NOT surprised that I have to sometimes try
out several of their mics in order to find a really sweet one (although I
didn't have to do this with the V-67 as they all sounded the same to me).
Like you said...I get what I pay for. At $300 I'm not expecting absolutely
perfect QC and perfect consistency. That is why I'm so surprised when I
get a product at that price point that sounds better then anything else I've
used at that price point. To me it's wonderful!!!
Now I now that not all the new companies selling these Chinese mics are the
same. Some probably are just out to catch ignorant newbies and make some
quick cash. So I'm not defending all these companies or their products.
Even though some use the same capsules, most of the mics sound remarkably
different. I just heard a SE5000 and thought it sounded rather crappy even
though some might think it's the same thing as the Marshall V-77 tube mic.
.
So right now I'm sticking with the Marshall mics and other established mic
manufacturers until I hear from people like Harvey if some of the newer mics
like the C1 are actually good products and also if whether their
manufacturers are decent people who are genuinely interested in making a
high quality product (or at least as high as they can get at the given price
point).
I'm still confused at why that is so wrong? I always thought that all the
pros on rec.audio.pro believed that it was a good thing to use your ears?
Yet many of the same professional audio engineers ignorantly label ALL of
these Chinese made mics as total crap after hearing maybe one or two samples
or often without even bothering to hear them at all...because there is NO
way they can sound ANYTHING remotely close to the high-end mics right????
For me it's to much hypocricy to bear so I'll continue to post until I turn
blue, that some of these mics are decent mics put out by decent companies
and no I'm not talking about the C1 mic or it's manufacturer... at least not
yet....that adhesive/2 screw thing on the capsule didn't look good and I
hope they make those capsules a little more robust in the future.
But it's stuff like that why I continue to read RAP. It's open minded
people
like Harvey Gerst that are kind enough and who have the experience to really
get to the bottom of the questions concerning which of these new mics suck
and which ones are jems. Ty Ford is another such example.
At any rate, the main thing I disagree with is that all these mics are pure
crap. I mean look at the Shure SM-57. I mean that's a $75 microphone.
Yes PROFESSIONALS use it!!! WOW!!! But it's only 75 freaking dollars so it
must be CRAP!!!! But for some strange reason some cotton eared morons
insist on using it on instruments, and even....God forbid....VOCALS!!!
A mic like the MXL-2001 for example is no different. I find it it to be an
excellent instrument mic and also fairly nice sounding on my own voice. On
many instruments I even find it to sound FAR better then (gasp) the
SM-57!!!! But everyone keeps on telling me that it's a crap mic? Sure
doesn't sound like it to me. I dunno...maybe I'm doing something wrong and
these mics arent' supposed to sound this good.
I know I'm being sarcastic, but all I'm saying is just chill out over these
mics. They're inexpensive tools. Take 'em or leave, it's your call.
Myself I'll take a few of the nicer ones and leave the others.
But you all really shouldn't be getting so upset over these mics except for
specific problems that you might see with specific manufacturers or models
of microphones.
Anyways my hope is that most of the regulars on RAP will try to at least be
a little open-minded towards some of these Chinese made mics. Maybe not for
your own benefit as you can afford better, but for the benefit of those who
can't afford better or who just can't justify buying the expensive stuff
like myself.
Chris G.
j. taylor
Will Hunt