Bob Rock/Randy Staub techniques?
Jay Kahrs
>then again, he did something with the snare and the hi-hat, like you
>mentioned, only I hear the hi-hat compressed like hell! Is that a common
>thing to do?
In the Metallica video they had an SM7 on the hi-hat. Not sure what the rest of
the chain was though. I never mic a hi-hat unless I'm forced to or the drummer
is doing a lot with it.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Engineer - Producer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
John Shepp
much into Metallica, especially "And Justice for All". I know a few of the
guys who work with Bob and are part of his circle here in Vancouver at the
time. I heard they refitted the studio space with an all wood construction,
in order to get the room sound time factor just the way they wanted it. Then
I heard stories about spending weeks just getting the drum sounds tweaked.
Studio photos showed a huge configuration of mics on the kit, every tome
double mic'ed, top and bottom, what looked like two mics on the top of the
snare, (maybe and SM81, and other dynamic), and close mics on all of the
cymbals. I know these guys listen loud. The joke at Little Mountain, the now
demised studio where Bob Rock recorded Bon Jovi, Motley Crue and the Cult,
had a room filled with blown out NS10 and Urie tweeters. Can you imagine how
loud this is? They recorded all the drums analog, then transferred them to
Sony Dash for oberdubs to save the master, then on mix, used the original
master slaved to the Dash. I can imagine they spend days and days on the
mixes, perfecting every level. I also remember video footage showing the
vocal setup, and NS10 monitors behind the vocal mic, so I guess they had to
figure out a way to get rid of the leakage via phase cancellation.
Jules
different amps in different rooms. - just splitting the gtr signal fucks
it up, whats needed is a buffered distrabution box. The PCP Distro by
Little Labs is such a device.... I think Fletcher sells em... I got me
one, I expect platinum records any day now...
Jules
EggHd wrote:
> << Anyone have any dirt on their record/mixing techniques? >>
>
> They have good ears?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
J.P.
definition at all, very wash-y, compressed, loud in the overall mix, and
definately jumps out a bit when the snare is struck. I'll have to look for
that old Metallica video and check it out, I think it's on DVD now. I hear a
lot of RMX non-linear on the snare at times... other times gently gated room.
The toms are my fav, I love them... they get ya right in the chest.
EggHd
definition at all, very wash-y, compressed, loud in the overall mix, and
definately jumps out a bit when the snare is struck. >>
This would happen if there was some hat leakage on the snare and the snare was
gated. (the leakage would increase with high end eq and compression) When the
snare hit, the gate would open and the hat would get louder as that sound is
added to the mix at that point.
If this was already discussed.... nevermind <g>
J.P.
things here and there about them, but the Metallica black album and the Cult's
Sonic Temple are two of my favorite-sounding CDs for that style. I know Bob was
in a Mix mag years ago, but I can't find it... can anyone help a bit?
Thanks,
J.P.
Staff Engineer
BearTracks Studios,
Suffern, NY
http://www.beartracks.com
"Just give me the roll baby... F#ck the rock. I've had enough of it. "
-Keef Riffhard
LS1productions
They have good ears? >>
I think it takes much more then good ears to make records like they make. Bob
Rock's Black Album is a very processed sounding album. For one thing, lots of
drums are mixed with samples. The kick has no lower mids at all, seems like
they are totally dropped out. Lots of lows and a shit load of highs, very
slappy. Much of the snare sound is the combo of the snare with the hi hat,
sometimes you can acheive this by submixing the two together and gate it, or if
you have enough leakage of hat on the snare mic, just gate the snare with a
long release. The effect is that every time the snare is hit, the hat explodes
with it.
By no means is this a natural sound, but its cool. From what I recall,
lots of lows rolled off on the guitars, and lots of midrange. The whole album
is very bright overall.
LS
EggHd
They have good ears?
Jay Kahrs
>Anyone have any dirt on their record/mixing techniques? I've picked up a few
things here and
> there about them, but the Metallica black album and the
>Cult's Sonic Temple are two of my favorite-sounding CDs for that style. I know
Bob was in a Mix
> mag years ago, but I can't find it... can anyone help a bit?
I saw a picture of Bob Rock in the studio with Metallica and they had a rack of
Orban 622 EQ's, maybe 5 or 6. I don't know if they were the studios or not but
they looked like they were in road cases. It's a good EQ for some things but
not everything. That kick drum sounds like a sample. Have you seen the "Making
of" video for that album? That may help you.
Jay
and so far I think that he made the worlds greatest rock drumsound on Motley
Crue's selftitled album. I'd like to know WHAT he did.
To me it sounds like a very, very good sounding, large ambience room, but
then again, he did something with the snare and the hi-hat, like you
mentioned, only I hear the hi-hat compressed like hell! Is that a common
thing to do?
If anyone has any ideas of any special techniques from the master, we are
many that'd like to know more....
Jay Hanson
J.P. <corru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010316002614...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Chris G.
with Bob Rock, and he mentioned that it was a struggle trying to get James
Hetfield to agree with him that the mid frequencies should be boosted during
mixing because Metallica has always had that signature "Scooped to hell"
rhtyhm guitar sound. In the article he basically told the guitarists to go
ahead scoop the mids all they want on the guitar amps. He then boosted the
mids either during tracking or during the mixdown. I forget which. I just
wish the article stated exactly what frequencies he usually boosts at with
heavy metal guitar tracks. At any rate, it makes a lot of sense and is
something I'm just realizing I should be doing. I've noticed that on my own
guitar tracks where I scoop everything to the extreme, the guitar tracks
sound really heavy sounding soloed, but in the mix they just disappear
because there is no "body" to the guitar sound which is normally all in the
mids. So I end up with a sorta distant sounding guitar sound in the mix no
matter how much I boost the high frequency stuff (which just adds harshness
of boosted too much). BUT...when I record other metal bands I usually
don't scoop the mids much if at all and sometimes even boost the mids a
bit...resulting in a very meaty sounding heavy metal guitar sound. That
kind of rich heavy metal guitar sound is, in my opinion, one of the most
difficult things to get. Sometimes you get really lucky and just plunk a
mic in front of the amp, move it a bit, and press record ending up with a
great track... but usually I have to spend A LOT of time getting good heavy
metal/death metal rhythm guitar tracks. Also pay close attention to how
the bass guitar blends with the guitars. Sometimes the bass and the guitars
will fight for sonic space. If the song arrangement is bad then the mix
will be bad. But if the song arrangment is really tight sounding, then the
mix will sound good. That's where a good producer comes into play making
sure that the song arrangement is solid.
Chris G.
"LS1productions" <ls1prod...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010316011215...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
J.P.
box, which takes a +4 line level signal and spits it out as instrument level. I
think these boxes go for like $200 or so, but the Little Labs does that and
everything else but wash your car, so I'm sure you'll be more than satisfied!
Later,
J.P.
Neve 8068
That tom sound you guys are all raving about is gated to tape . I figured
out how they did it and it is the simplest and cheapest damn thing to do and it
works like a charm every time. I have never had it false trigger or not trigger
the gate -Mark
bret(t)
Feel like sharing, or...? Of course, have anyone ever heard Lars talk about
"making fills in the computer"?
bret(t)
J.P.
your experience would be nice to hear.
Jay Kahrs
What's the trick? Do they put a piezo trigger on the tom and key the gate from
it?
J.P.
>"making fills in the computer"?
>
Well, i know the amount of tape editing on the black album was immense, they
didn't use Protools until Load. Michael Barbiero, who mixed "..And Justice For
All", told me that Lars would figure out a precise measurement in inches for
the tempo of the song, and edit the tape so that each kick and snare was the
exact same distance apart. I can only imagine what editing fills was like!
Later,
EggHd
out how they did it and it is the simplest and cheapest damn thing to do and it
works like a charm every time. I have never had it false trigger or not trigger
the gate -Mark >>
How did you figure this out? Just from listening to a CD?
Neve 8068
>>
No watch Randy staubb hands it's only for a breif minute when they are
gettin tom sounds and he iws controlling how the toms gates trigger with a key
input its. Only like 20 seconds I rewound the tape a ton. But jay has part of
it by taking a piezo trigger and taping it to the shell of the tom and keying
the gate . But heres where it gets tricky. Is you take 3 channels and mult an
ocilator to them Then insert a gate on each of those channels and make sure the
oscilattor gates on the tom hits. Now on Playback on the deck whille you are
tracking put gates on all of the tom tracks and put those into the key inputs
of the gates and your toms will only come up when those oscilators come up. So
in essence you sre gateing them in a way to tape . I just find this a safe way
to do it . But I have done this while just taking the triggers straight to the
keys and gating the toms to tape and it also works fine . But I like being able
to automate how the tone hits the keys in the mix with the leval tothe keys it
can be more dymaic. But both ways work . I just have the tracks to burn for the
osclilator track. - Mark
J.P.
I never tried gating to tape so if u could explain the difference, i'd
appreciate it. I don't quite understand how the gating can affect the sound of
the toms, therefore making them more "killer", etc. I understand how gating
them followed by a good compressor can push them to the front a bit more in the
mix. Also, do u remember what mics Rock used on Lars' toms? I can't quite
remember.
Thanks,
John Noll
Oh, now I get it.
--
JN
Jay Kahrs
>appreciate it. I don't quite understand how the gating can affect the sound
>of the toms, therefore making them more "killer", etc. I understand how
gating
>them followed by a good compressor can push them to the front a bit more in
>the mix.
I will never gate toms to tape. The possibility of having one not open on a
16th or 32nd note fill and the drummer ripping my head off scares me. It's
easier to do it while mixing. Gating gerneally cleans up the sound of the drums
and takes out the ringing so I guess each tom hit would sound bigger.
>Also, do u remember what mics Rock used on Lars' toms? I can't quite
>remember.
When I watched the video I saw 409's, triggers and big rolls of duct tape on
the toms.