seeking a sound effect creator for short task
Joseph Raul
or so, but I am considering hiring someone competent to complete it. You
would be required to know how to compose/ arrange music, have knowledge of
instruments within an existing mix, and apply any necessary treatments as
well. What I would like is a short, 30- 45 second sound effect creation
that uses musical instruments. The effect I'm looking for was used in the
Star Trek TV series from 1966-69. If you want to hear it, consult episodes
"The Man Trap" and the last 15 minutes of "The Cage"/ "Menagerie".
There is only one catch: the effect must sound exactly like the original.
My ears are quite tuned to it through its highs/ lows and instrument
harmonics. Please be prepared to accept rejections until its right. I am
not concerned about a time frame, as long as you continue to work on it.
You may have to have access to an orchestra and sound stage- sampling/
synths/ resynthesis aren't going to cut it, IMO.
If you email direct (remove nospam to reply), I can provide details as to
the type of instrumentation used and a clip of a fairly high fidelity
version of the original effect (unfortunately too far short to be of any
use). The original is available, but quite noisy.
This will be used privately only and never released publicly. If you are
interested, or can provide suggestions as to who might be up to the task,
please email direct. I would also like an estimate of the total cost as
well.
Regards,
Joseph Raul
joseph...@nospamhotmail.com
Joseph Raul
things about Cedar noise reduction over the years. IF the original, noisy
file could be cleaned up to high fidelity or near high fidelity quality, I
would be willing to take that route but I would have to evaluate a short
test sample first. Nothing I have ever tried with software noise reduction
has been satisfactory, but if Cedar can work miracles it might be worth a
try. Joe
"Joseph Raul" <joseph...@hotmailnospam.com> wrote in message
news:hfpdt4$h48$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mark
wrote:
> I would like to point out a possible alternative. I have heard a many great
> things about Cedar noise reduction over the years. IF the original, noisy
> file could be cleaned up to high fidelity or near high fidelity quality, I
> would be willing to take that route but I would have to evaluate a short
> test sample first. Nothing I have ever tried with software noise reduction
> has been satisfactory, but if Cedar can work miracles it might be worth a
> try. Joe
>
> "
Mark
polymod
"Mark" <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b334561b-3d42-4aa7...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Yes, that would be most helpful.
Joseph:
Were you the one that posted a while back about the transporter sound effect
using an organ?
Poly
Scott Dorsey
>I would like to point out a possible alternative. I have heard a many great
>things about Cedar noise reduction over the years. IF the original, noisy
>file could be cleaned up to high fidelity or near high fidelity quality, I
>would be willing to take that route but I would have to evaluate a short
>test sample first. Nothing I have ever tried with software noise reduction
>has been satisfactory, but if Cedar can work miracles it might be worth a
>try. Joe
CEDAR and NoNoise are both very good at removing noise.
However, they don't do anything but remove noise.
People ask for miracles, like distortion removal, and adding top end and
bottom end that were never there in the first place.
Noise reduction systems don't do that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
PenttiL
> I would like to point out a possible alternative. I have heard a many
> great things about Cedar noise reduction over the years. IF the
> original, noisy file could be cleaned up to high fidelity or near high
> fidelity quality, I would be willing to take that route but I would have
> to evaluate a short test sample first. Nothing I have ever tried with
> software noise reduction has been satisfactory, but if Cedar can work
> miracles it might be worth a try. Joe
>
I've used the Cedar's Noise Reduction software about ten years with
Sadie digital workstations. It is very good tool for the cleaning
different static background noises, for instance from the old audiotapes
and vinyls. Easy to use, very practical, pays a lot, but it doesn't make
miracles ( which one will then really make...? ).
-Pentti
Joseph Raul
receive will have the link to the sound file. If you're really serious
about tackling this, I will compile and post the complete 30 second loop,
but it will take me some time. Thanks, Joe
"polymod" <pol...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b213d85$0$22549$607e...@cv.net...
Joseph Raul
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hfrgfm$buc$1...@panix2.panix.com...
I've tried nearly every software alternative I could think of and nothing
brings it out without some artifacts, sometimes significant, and loss of
fidelity. A good noise print is also lacking. I've wondered about Cedar
since I first heard about it and thought perhaps it might be up to the task,
if anyone wants to try and has access. Joe
Joseph Raul
"PenttiL" <pentti....@helsinki-esto.fi> wrote in message
news:hfrhv8$rpo$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
As I mentioned to the others, I will be posting the file soon (in a day) if
a personal email is sent. To give you a rough estimate, the noise level is
at least half as loud as the sound effect and it has been quite difficult to
work with using software NR. I've never been totally successful as there's
always loss of fidelity and/or introduction of artifacts. Joe
>
> -Pentti
LAB
--
Gianluca
Joseph Raul
pitch variance that comprises a good part of the track, if it was a theremin
it was quite bright. My own experimentation shows it more likely a Hammond
with flute-like drawbar adjustment or an oboe. Part of the problem has been
the characteristics of an orchestra: reverberations for one that are next to
impossible to reproduce, etc. Remember that this was created in the days
before official synthesizers so a combination of the Hammond and orchestral
wind instruments were used. There may be some strings as well, but
everything was processed to disguise the actual tonality by some sort of
modulation I believe. Joe
"LAB" <n...@mail.com> wrote in message news:hft92l$ftm$1...@serv1.iunet.it...
Ethan Winer
wrote:
> I've never been totally successful as there's always loss of fidelity and/or introduction of artifacts.
Maybe you could just buy that episode on DVD to get a clean copy?
http://store.startrek.com/page/dvds
--Ethan
Joseph Raul
"Ethan Winer" <blow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:81cd020c-acca-4e13...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
With most of the DVD's, they remixed them for supposedly better sound
quality. What happened with effects such as the alien planet surface was
that they mixed it with itself and did away with the characteristics of the
effect. The only hope was the VHS's, which I have, but none of them had
sound quality of sufficient quality above the noise level to be of
acceptance.
My latest experiments show that a glockenspiel actually brings me much
closer to the entire effect. I wonder if there is a stringed or wind
instrument that sounds similar because the glockenspiel is VERY close,
closer than I have ever been I think. Joe
Neil Gould
> Sorry, I don't have the compilation completed yet for posting. For
> the pitch variance that comprises a good part of the track, if it was
> a theremin it was quite bright. My own experimentation shows it more
> likely a Hammond with flute-like drawbar adjustment or an oboe. Part
> of the problem has been the characteristics of an orchestra:
> reverberations for one that are next to impossible to reproduce, etc.
> Remember that this was created in the days before official
> synthesizers so a combination of the Hammond and orchestral wind
> instruments were used. There may be some strings as well, but
> everything was processed to disguise the actual tonality by some sort
> of modulation I believe. Joe
>
wouldn't call myself a "Trekkie", I do recall the two episodes that you
referenced in an earlier post, but only vaguely remember the sounds you are
talking about.
Anyway, what prompted my reply is your notion that "...this was created...
before official synthesizers..." If you look into the history of electronic
music, you'll find that what we now call "synthesizers" have little to do
with the original concepts or instruments from even a decade before Star
Trek. Consider the soundtracks for "This Island Earth" (1955),"Forbidden
Planet" (1956), the works of Morton Subotnik, who released "Silver Apples of
the Moon" in the same year as the first Star Trek series (1967), and many
other works that used "real" synthesizers. Point being that since Star Trek
recycled a lot of material from "Forbidden Planet", it would not be at all
surprising to find that Roddenberry would also use the folks that worked on
those projects. So, it's entirely possible that classical electronic music
techniques and instruments were used to create the sounds you're after. If
so, trying to emulate them with today's instruments and comparatively
truncated control modes might be a daunting challenge.
Best,
Neil
Soundhaspriority
"Joseph Raul" <joseph...@hotmailnospam.com> wrote in message
news:hfs4ul$1f8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I can second what Scott says. I worked with ARS (Audio Restoration Suite),
which is on the same level. In one way, the result is actually worse than
the original. We are all accustomed to the sounds of degraded recordings, so
we have some ability to filter the annoyance. But these restoration tools
don't come without cost. They do not eliminate the degradation. Instead,
they transform the spectrum of the noise to something that is supposed to be
more innocuous. But listen closely, and the transformed spectrum is
something so strange, so obviously machine generated, that the intent
listener could be more bothered by it than the original problem.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511
Sean Conolly
news:hfuc3l$qlf$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
Silver Apples of the Moon? I may still have an old LP that I inheirited from
my older brothers. I've never heard it mentioned anywhere before.
Sean
Jay Ts
> "Neil Gould" <ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote
>
>> Morton Subotnik, who released "Silver Apples of
>> the Moon" in the same year as the first Star Trek series (1967), and
>> many other works that used "real" synthesizers.
>
> from my older brothers. I've never heard it mentioned anywhere before.
I used to have that. As I recall from the liner notes,
they hooked a 1960s-era computer to a sound generator, and
they said they programmed the computer to play "music" on it.
So it was not just an early example of a synthesizer, it was
computer-generated music.
This of course was before MIDI, so it was all custom-built and hardwired.
It must have seemed very advanced at the time.
The result sounded a little too random to me to be worth more than a
few listens. I think the contraption would have been used more
appropriately as a sound effect generator for sci-fi films, than as the
artist of an LP release. It did make history, though, and I've seen
the album referred to many times in the field of computer music.
Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php
Neil Gould
works, such as "Raging Bull". So that puts me in the age bracket => your
older brothers. ;-)
Give "Silver Apples" a listen, and then try to imagine recreating it with
current-day instruments...if someone is really picky about the sound of a
violin performance, using sample synthesis to recreate it is at the very
least not the easy route. The same is true for reproducing the soundscape of
analog synths with today's instruments.
--
Best,
Neil
philicorda
<snip>
> Give "Silver Apples" a listen, and then try to imagine recreating it
> with current-day instruments...if someone is really picky about the
> sound of a violin performance, using sample synthesis to recreate it is
> at the very least not the easy route. The same is true for reproducing
> the soundscape of analog synths with today's instruments.
For the Forbidden planet soundtrack, the composers built strange
synthesisers based on feedback networks and ring modulators for each
sound, recorded the result, and then took it all apart again for the next
sound.
They ended up with many hours of recordings which were then sorted
through and edited for the film score.
Apparently the original composers could not recreate the sounds
afterwards either. :)
It's interesting you mentioned that it might be a cue reused from the
Forbidden Planet recordings, as I had a bash at recreating one of the
Star Trek effects when Joseph posted here about it some time ago.
The nearest I got was through use of a Bode frequency shifter, which is
more like how the Forbidden Planet people were working, as opposed to
conventional synths or instruments.
Neil Gould
"synthesizers" were not keyboard instruments, but a collection of electronic
modules. Although some had a keyboard that resembled the piano's, they were
actually viewed and used as a voltage divider trigger mechanism that had
little or nothing to do with a twelve-tone scale. Several other trigger and
control options were available as well. The entire approach to the
instrument is different than what we typically see now, and modern
"synthesizers" lack the tools and controls needed to emulate some of the
early works.
The "20th Century" compositional approach was as different as the electronic
instruments. For example, the structure of "Silver Apples" was more similar
to the works of Karlheinz Stockhausen, another composer who used traditional
orchestral instruments in the same time period. The music is not as random
and uncontrolled as it sounds to some folks.
--
Best,
Neil
Joseph Raul
I have been successful emulating a couple of other Star Trek effects. In
each case, I used non-digital sources as the core and added various
treatments until the effect was right. In no case has an all digital method
been successful. The same has been the case with the current alien planet
effects. The instrument I spoke about yesterday- the glockenspiel- actually
matches the tonal spectrum of the variance in the effect, far better than I
have been able to achieve with B4 digital organ software, for example. So
we are still looking at at least analog sources that were sampled.
Other things I have kept in mind are tube amplifiers and tube distortion,
which were obviously used in several effects. I have yet to find a tube
distortion emulator that matches an original. Some come close, but the
telltale sign shows up at higher or lower frequencies where it can
definitely be seen that the response just isn't the same.
I suspect that if I had a true Hammond B3 organ, I would have probably been
successful by now. In my research, I found that the Hammond could emulate a
variety of instruments such as flues, oboes, etc and depended on the drawbar
settings. And I've proven to myself that an actual B3 does have quite a
different sound than any digital imitation by comparing B3 samples to the B4
for example. In 99% of the cases, this would not be an issue but for my
purposes the digital characteristics make themselves well known at the
higher frequencies. Plus the fact that the B3 had tube based amps.
Joe
Laurence Payne
<joseph...@hotmailnospam.com> wrote:
>I suspect that if I had a true Hammond B3 organ, I would have probably been
>successful by now.
They're still around. Go to one and try.
Neil Gould
>> The instruments used in electronic music that were later dubbed
>> "synthesizers" were not keyboard instruments, but a collection of
>> electronic
>> modules. Although some had a keyboard that resembled the piano's,
>> they were
>> actually viewed and used as a voltage divider trigger mechanism that
>> had little or nothing to do with a twelve-tone scale. Several other
>> trigger and
>> control options were available as well. The entire approach to the
>> instrument is different than what we typically see now, and modern
>> "synthesizers" lack the tools and controls needed to emulate some of
>> the early works.
>
> I have been successful emulating a couple of other Star Trek effects.
> In each case, I used non-digital sources as the core and added various
> treatments until the effect was right. In no case has an all digital
> method been successful. The same has been the case with the current
> alien planet effects. The instrument I spoke about yesterday- the
> glockenspiel- actually matches the tonal spectrum of the variance in
> the effect, far better than I have been able to achieve with B4
> digital organ software, for example. So we are still looking at at
> least analog sources that were sampled.
>
> Other things I have kept in mind are tube amplifiers and tube
> distortion, which were obviously used in several effects. I have yet
> to find a tube distortion emulator that matches an original. Some
> come close, but the telltale sign shows up at higher or lower
> frequencies where it can definitely be seen that the response just
> isn't the same.
>
> I suspect that if I had a true Hammond B3 organ, I would have
> probably been successful by now. In my research, I found that the
> Hammond could emulate a variety of instruments such as flues, oboes,
> etc and depended on the drawbar settings.
> <snip>
Having been in bands with B3 players, and others with oboe, flute, etc.
players, I can only say that to my ears, the B3's sounds aren't all that
similar to the actual instruments. YMMV. But, if the sound of a B3 satisfies
your needs, perhaps that is an easier way to get to your goal.
> And I've proven to myself
> that an actual B3 does have quite a different sound than any digital
> imitation by comparing B3 samples to the B4 for example.
> In 99% of the cases, this would not be an issue but for my purposes the
digital
> characteristics make themselves well known at the higher frequencies.
> Plus the fact that the B3 had tube based amps.
>
There are so many variables involved in creating a sample beyond the
instrument being sampled that I don't think it would be easy to draw
conclusions about comparative sound spectrums by listening only to samples.
It's been a long time since I last dealt with a B3, but IIRC, it didn't have
an amp, but was typically used with Leslie cabinets or other speakers that
had the amps built into them. So, again there was a lot of variability even
between B3 setups. I mostly remember the weight of those things and how many
of us it took to move them from gig to gig!
--
Best,
Neil
Joseph Raul
Unfortunately, a sampled one. There's good and bad here. The best thing I
found was that, with proper mixing, the harmonic spectra almost exactly
matches the instrumentation used in the sound effects. And the fact that it
has to be pitch bent for the proper effect to take place. The only bad
thing I guess would be not having a real one so I could resample to my
heart's content. I asked this before and I still wonder about it and that
is whether or not there is an instrument *of duration* that sounds like the
glockenspiel. My sampling library certainly doesn't come up with anything
close. The next closest are bell sounds, but even their spectra are
different.
That's precisely why I don't own one. Weight and bulk. Just don't have the
room, or I would have had one years ago.
A friend of mine was once in touch with one of the sound designers from the
original Star Trek. This was within the last 15 years, so the designer was
quite old by that time and sporadic in his response. All my friend could
make out what that most of the effects were created by a specially modified
Hammond, no details were provided. I suspect it had pitch bending or
modulation ability added to it for starters. As you say, there have been so
many parameters involved that it has been a difficult task to get the sound
right. What looks like a simple, pitch bent tone mixed with steady ones
hasn't been what it appears at all. The keys have been in the reverbs,
instruments, and distortion mainly. If any one of these is out of whack,
the result is poor. Proper instumentation has been the biggest factor
without a doubt.
Joe
> --
> Best,
>
> Neil
>
>
Joseph Raul
the glockenspiel, I have decided to abandon my request for now. I have
become closer than I have ever been at effect recreation and I'm basically
there with just a few small things to iron out.
Thanks again for all of your commentary as it has really shed some light on
all the issues involved.
BTW, should anyone know of instrumentation that sounds like the
glockenspiel, but has duration of tone, please share.
Thanks again,
Joe
"Joseph Raul" <joseph...@hotmailnospam.com> wrote in message
news:hfpdt4$h48$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Neil Gould
> <snip>
>
> BTW, should anyone know of instrumentation that sounds like the
> glockenspiel, but has duration of tone, please share.
>
be handy. Knowing how a glockenspiel generates its sound is the starting
point; its metal bars create harmonic content that will be close to, but not
exactly a square wave, meaning that it will have both odd and even harmonics
with the odd harmonics greater in proportion to the even than in other
instrument types. So, I'd start with a square wave generator or two, perhaps
a triangle wave generator, a couple of bandpass filters, and a final EQ to
shape the overall content. If you need to modulate the sound (you mentioned
pitch bending), a LFO ahead of the square wave generators should do the
trick, but that may also require a VCF in place of the bandpass filters to
keep the harmonics tracking together.
Doing this with modern-day synths would be a challenging task.
--
Best,
Neil
Don Pearce
Don't know about square wave. Here is an actual glockenspiel playing
C1.
http://www.soundthoughts.co.uk/look/glock.png
d
Neil Gould
characteristics of the mic used to record that note (does one exist that can
reproduce a square wave?) and every other component in the recording chain,
what would you expect to see? Joseph's main point is the harmonic content,
and if you look at the relationships between the peaks in your waveforms, I
think you'd discover that a square wave is a pretty good starting point.
And, I would not be the least bit surprised if the sound effects in question
were created in a similar way to what I've described.
--
Best,
Neil
Don Pearce
<ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
Probably. The third harmonic actually sits about 7dB above the
fundamental, which would account for the general spikiness.
d
Arny Krueger
Here's a link to .wav sample of a glockenspiel:
http://free-loops.com/download.php?id=4969
Spectral analysis shows that most of the energy is in 2 components:
Fundamental presumed to be 1 Khz but there is no significant energy at 1
KHz.
Second harmonic specifically 2 KHz
Third harmonic specifcally 3 KHz
Since strong even and odd harmonics are present, this is most definately
not a square wave.
Neil Gould
I wrote: "...its metal bars create harmonic content that will be close to,
but not exactly a square wave, meaning that it will have both odd and even
harmonics with the odd harmonics greater in proportion to the even than in
other instrument types." As you can see, I did NOT claim that a glockenspiel
creates square waves, but that square waves generate the kind of harmonic
content that can be a useful waveform for synthesizing that sound. I also
point out that other components will be necessary to get closer to the "real
thing", and it appears to me that your analysis reinforces my statement!
;-)
--
Best,
Neil
Don Pearce
wrote:
>this is most definately
>not a square wave.
http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com//
d
Kato St. Johns
the Star Trek SFX library at Paramount. This was before the fire, so the
effects were all intact. A CD was later released, but it contained only
about 60% of the total effects that were on the original tapes that were
burned.
The sound editors/ creators were kind enough to leave notes on how various
sound effects were created. This didn't only apply to Trek, but other
series and movies as well over the decades. Of course, always assuming the
notes would be there, I didn't write or copy anything down and of course the
notes were burned. However, I can still remember a few things and perhaps I
can shed some light.
First of all, the effect you speak of was created by both Doug Grindstaff
and Alexander Courage. Courage did one of the three versions which was used
in the original pilot (the two part movie I think) and Grindstaff's version
was heard throughout most of the series. The orchestra was used, along with
the Hammond organ. I think for the pitch variance effect, a metal bar or
plate of some sort was made so that it could be struck and slid to different
pitches at the same time. From what I recall anyway. The steady notes were
winds- horns, flutes, and the hammond all combined. All of this was done
live on the soundstage with only plate reverberation and I think some
filtering effects as I recall.
Most of the realistic sounding effects were actual instruments, either
genuine or custom made for a particular task. Gene Roddenberry basically
rejected most electronic generated effects at the time because they sounded
too artificial, so the sound designers would spend weeks going over the
entire sound library and recording and trying their own samples as well. I
can also recall some of the beeps, etc being recordings of exotic bird
chirps treated in some way or another. The bridge button sounds in the
latter part of the series were acutally moose or elk calls, again treated.
I've been out of the sound design part of it for a good many years, but I
can tell you this: some of the unique effects produced for Trek and even as
late as Star Wars could never be duplicated digitally or electronically.
Synths may sound somewhat close, or even sound generators, but they'll still
lack the tonal qualities of the acutal instrument used. This may change in
the coming years, but I haven't heard anything yet digitally made that
sounded that convincing. Of course, that is the point with many designers
today as they want the digital effect.
Good luck with your task. You're on the right track. Stay with instruments
instead of electronic tones and I think you'll eventually get it.
Best,
KSJ
"Joseph Raul" <joseph...@hotmailnospam.com> wrote in message
news:hg404g$358$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Arny Krueger
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> Here's a link to .wav sample of a glockenspiel:
>>
>> http://free-loops.com/download.php?id=4969
>>
>> Spectral analysis shows that most of the energy is in 2
>> components:
>> Fundamental presumed to be 1 Khz but there is no
>> significant energy at 1 KHz.
>>
>> Second harmonic specifically 2 KHz
>>
>> Third harmonic specifcally 3 KHz
>>
>> Since strong even and odd harmonics are present, this
>> is most definately not a square wave.
> Arny,
>
> I wrote: "...its metal bars create harmonic content that
> will be close to, but not exactly a square wave, meaning
> that it will have both odd and even harmonics with the
> odd harmonics greater in proportion to the even than in
> other instrument types."
Letsee if I can be more clear about this. The sample I referenced has more
energy in the even harmonics than the odd.
> As you can see, I did NOT claim
> that a glockenspiel creates square waves, but that square
> waves generate the kind of harmonic content that can be a
> useful waveform for synthesizing that sound. I also point
> out that other components will be necessary to get closer
> to the "real thing", and it appears to me that your
> analysis reinforces my statement! ;-)
Since a square wave by definition is free of even harmonics, I'm at a loss
at how to easily use a square wave as a basis for a wave that has strong and
even predominate even harmonics.
Neil Gould
> "Neil Gould" <ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
> news:hg5oui$2an4$1...@adenine.netfront.net
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>>> Here's a link to .wav sample of a glockenspiel:
>>>
>>> http://free-loops.com/download.php?id=4969
>>>
>>> Spectral analysis shows that most of the energy is in 2
>>> components:
>
>>> Fundamental presumed to be 1 Khz but there is no
>>> significant energy at 1 KHz.
>>>
>>> Second harmonic specifically 2 KHz
>>>
>>> Third harmonic specifcally 3 KHz
>>>
>>> Since strong even and odd harmonics are present, this
>>> is most definately not a square wave.
>
>> Arny,
>>
>> I wrote: "...its metal bars create harmonic content that
>> will be close to, but not exactly a square wave, meaning
>> that it will have both odd and even harmonics with the
>> odd harmonics greater in proportion to the even than in
>> other instrument types."
>
> Letsee if I can be more clear about this. The sample I referenced has
> more energy in the even harmonics than the odd.
>
where we are missing each other. In the statement above, I'm not referring
to sqaure waves, but in a glockespiel's hamonic content, and since your
sample includes both even and odd harmonics, to synthesize this sound, one
needs a source of odd harmonics in greater amounts than will be found in
other instrument types. Does that help any?
>> As you can see, I did NOT claim
>> that a glockenspiel creates square waves, but that square
>> waves generate the kind of harmonic content that can be a
>> useful waveform for synthesizing that sound. I also point
>> out that other components will be necessary to get closer
>> to the "real thing", and it appears to me that your
>> analysis reinforces my statement! ;-)
>
> Since a square wave by definition is free of even harmonics, I'm at a
> loss at how to easily use a square wave as a basis for a wave that
> has strong and even predominate even harmonics.
>
Perhaps that is why I suggested the inclusion of a triangle wave in the
synthesis? Hmmm??? ;-)
--
Best,
Neil
Badmuts
> of us it took to move them from gig to gig!
Friends help you move. Great friends help you move bodies. Real friends help
you move a B3.
Joseph Raul
"Kato St. Johns" <katost...@contact.com> wrote in message
news:hg5pme$fja$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Sorry to chime in a little late here, Joe, but 30 years ago, I had access
> to the Star Trek SFX library at Paramount. This was before the fire, so
> the effects were all intact. A CD was later released, but it contained
> only about 60% of the total effects that were on the original tapes that
> were burned.
Unfortunately, I ran into the fire issue myself. I tried to request an
effect or two that wasn't part of the CD release. No success because the
remainder were burned.
> The sound editors/ creators were kind enough to leave notes on how various
> sound effects were created. This didn't only apply to Trek, but other
> series and movies as well over the decades. Of course, always assuming
> the notes would be there, I didn't write or copy anything down and of
> course the notes were burned. However, I can still remember a few things
> and perhaps I can shed some light.
>
> First of all, the effect you speak of was created by both Doug Grindstaff
> and Alexander Courage.
I had always heard Grindstaff and I didn't know Courage composed one too. I
can believe it though since he sometimes used unusual instruments in his
Trek scores.
Courage did one of the three versions which was used
> in the original pilot (the two part movie I think) and Grindstaff's
> version was heard throughout most of the series. The orchestra was used,
> along with the Hammond organ. I think for the pitch variance effect, a
> metal bar or plate of some sort was made so that it could be struck and
> slid to different pitches at the same time. From what I recall anyway.
> The steady notes were winds- horns, flutes, and the hammond all combined.
> All of this was done live on the soundstage with only plate reverberation
> and I think some filtering effects as I recall.
If so, that could be why I've been having difficulties. Orchestra
recreation by digital not matching an actual orchestra.
> Most of the realistic sounding effects were actual instruments, either
> genuine or custom made for a particular task. Gene Roddenberry basically
> rejected most electronic generated effects at the time because they
> sounded too artificial, so the sound designers would spend weeks going
> over the entire sound library and recording and trying their own samples
> as well. I can also recall some of the beeps, etc being recordings of
> exotic bird chirps treated in some way or another. The bridge button
> sounds in the latter part of the series were acutally moose or elk calls,
> again treated.
I had heard there were at least two editors who worked on the original
series. I knew Grindstaff was one, but I can't recall the other.
> I've been out of the sound design part of it for a good many years, but I
> can tell you this: some of the unique effects produced for Trek and even
> as late as Star Wars could never be duplicated digitally or
> electronically. Synths may sound somewhat close, or even sound generators,
> but they'll still lack the tonal qualities of the acutal instrument used.
> This may change in the coming years, but I haven't heard anything yet
> digitally made that sounded that convincing. Of course, that is the point
> with many designers today as they want the digital effect.
>
> Good luck with your task. You're on the right track. Stay with
> instruments instead of electronic tones and I think you'll eventually get
> it.
Thanks for the fascinating information! Joe
> Best,
> KSJ
>
Kato St. Johns
At least one of the others also appeared in the early credits and was Jack
Findlay. Jack's approach was different from the others and he used
electronic methodology. Of course, most of what he created was rejected for
the series, but he would have been a great sound editor today.
>> I've been out of the sound design part of it for a good many years, but I
>> can tell you this: some of the unique effects produced for Trek and even
>> as late as Star Wars could never be duplicated digitally or
>> electronically. Synths may sound somewhat close, or even sound
>> generators, but they'll still lack the tonal qualities of the acutal
>> instrument used. This may change in the coming years, but I haven't heard
>> anything yet digitally made that sounded that convincing. Of course,
>> that is the point with many designers today as they want the digital
>> effect.
>>
>> Good luck with your task. You're on the right track. Stay with
>> instruments instead of electronic tones and I think you'll eventually get
>> it.
>
> Thanks for the fascinating information! Joe
You're welcome.
KSJ
>> Best,
>> KSJ
>>
>
Sean Conolly
>
> Unfortunately, a sampled one. There's good and bad here. The best thing
> I found was that, with proper mixing, the harmonic spectra almost exactly
> matches the instrumentation used in the sound effects. And the fact that
> it has to be pitch bent for the proper effect to take place.
FWIW, one the pieces I played in college (And The Mountains Rising Nowhere)
had a part for 'water gong' - which was simply a gong that was raised and
lowered in a tub of water to bend the pitch. I imagine you could do the same
with glockenspiel bars.
Sean
Keith W. Blackwell
Kato St. Johns <katost...@contact.com> wrote:
> You're welcome.
Well, I just have to chime in to say thanks also. I think that
the whole field of sound design would benefit from someone
trying to 'recreate' those burnt notes, perhaps even a book
might sell enough to make it worth the trouble. Do you suppose
these original creators and/or others with memory of the notes
(like yourself) could pool memories for a best guess? Or if
you would be willing to take the time to explain more, I would
love to hear more stories like this from you.
BTW: no one has mentioned that the [entire?] ST:TOS has been
remastered in HD and is available for free viewing. I haven't
taken the time to get to the sound effects mentioned in those
particular episodes, but might they be in better shape than the
DVD's mentioned previously? See for yourself -- there is detail
there we could never have noticed on standard television:
http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/
--
Keith W. Blackwell