I want legal Napster!
Carey Carlan
music today and will be sightreading it as concertmaster at tomorrow's
rehearsal. It's very hard to lead when you don't know the music.
Yes, I'll practice, but I'd sure like a place to pay for and download a
legal copy *right now* so I could hear what it sounds like.
Benjamin Maas
recording is Pascal Rogé...
When did you find out the repertoire for your concert and that you were
playing concertmaster? Why didn't you just go to Amazon or a similar place
and order a CD?
Here it is: $18 for 2 CDs
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000425S/qid=1050292475/sr=1
-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-1637580-7608130?v=glance&s=classical
--Ben
--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com
"Carey Carlan" <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message ...
Ricky W. Hunt
I believe you can legally have a downloaded MP3 on your system for 24 hours
before you have to delete it. This is what I really hate about laws. You can
do something that's illegal but moral and you can do something that's legal
but immoral. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Ricky W. Hunt
hear a portion of it. Another thing I do especially with classical pieces
like this is (and it's perfectly legal) is to find a good MIDI rendition of
it. (We all know there's a plethora of crappy MIDI files out there but
that's not the fault of MIDI but of the performers.) Here's a link to a MIDI
of the 3rd movement you are talking about played by Harold Bauer:
http://www.spencerserolls.com/musicforweb/5973e.mid. These are pieces played
by professional musicians. Do a Google search on the song you are looking
for and the word MIDI and you'll find everything you need.
"Carey Carlan" <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns935CEACEEC652...@198.99.146.10...
Mark W
news:Akqma.448048$F1.65326@sccrnsc04:
> I believe you can legally have a downloaded MP3 on your system for 24
> hours before you have to delete it. This is what I really hate about
> laws. You can do something that's illegal but moral and you can do
> something that's legal but immoral. The two have nothing to do with
> each other.
You should also be able to make legal copies of any product you own, so if
you bought a copy on Amazon could you legally download it, even before the
physical CD arrived at your house?
Regards,
Mark
--
http://www.marktaw.com/
http://www.prosoundreview.com/
User reviews of pro audio gear
Laurence Payne
Will the conductor lend you the full score? Probably even more use.
Artie Turner
Carey Carlan
news:Ciqma.122633$ug3.2...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net:
> Should be an easy piece to find a recording of at a CD store... My
> fav. recording is Pascal Rogé...
Stores that actually *stock* classical are becoming rare.
> When did you find out the repertoire for your concert
Saturday
> and that you
> were playing concertmaster?
Sunday
> Why didn't you just go to Amazon or a
> similar place and order a CD?
To arrive by Monday?
> Here it is: $18 for 2 CDs
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000425S/qid=1050292475
> /sr=1 -7/ref=sr_1_7/102-1637580-7608130?v=glance&s=classical
And I may well order it, but it might not arrive until after the concert.
Carey Carlan
news:Xns935D1BD8...@130.81.64.196:
> "Ricky W. Hunt" <ricky...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:Akqma.448048$F1.65326@sccrnsc04:
>
>> I believe you can legally have a downloaded MP3 on your system for 24
>> hours before you have to delete it. This is what I really hate about
>> laws. You can do something that's illegal but moral and you can do
>> something that's legal but immoral. The two have nothing to do with
>> each other.
>
> You should also be able to make legal copies of any product you own,
> so if you bought a copy on Amazon could you legally download it, even
> before the physical CD arrived at your house?
That's an interesting legal twist!
Carey Carlan
> A lot of places like Amazon.com have clips of the CD's for sale so you
> could hear a portion of it
But only snippets of a much longer piece.
> Another thing I do especially with
> classical pieces like this is (and it's perfectly legal) is to find a
> good MIDI rendition of it. (We all know there's a plethora of crappy
> MIDI files out there but that's not the fault of MIDI but of the
> performers.) Here's a link to a MIDI of the 3rd movement you are
> talking about played by Harold Bauer:
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/musicforweb/5973e.mid. These are pieces
> played by professional musicians. Do a Google search on the song you
> are looking for and the word MIDI and you'll find everything you need.
That is the most useful suggestion I've gotten thus far. Don't MIDI files
have the same copyright restrictions as MP3's?
Carey Carlan
news:juuk9vcb8pmj7oluu...@4ax.com:
Nope. He's studying, too.
Carey Carlan
news:FSxma.289$oI.95...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
And where does the "legal" part fit in? Yes, I have KaZaa on my computer
at the house, installed by some of the local teenagers, and I may even get
desperate enough to use it, but it's the principal. There's little enough
support for classical recordings as it is.
Mark made a good point of both ordering and downloading. That makes the
most sense, given the current industry status.
What I want to do is go to the Sony website and pay a small fee to download
a licensed copy of this music in WAV format. I wonder how many years we
are away from that dream?
Artie Turner
> Artie Turner <art...@swbell.nyet> wrote in
> news:FSxma.289$oI.95...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
>
>
>>Carey Carlan wrote:
>>
>>>We're performing Saint-Saen's Piano Concerto #2 in two weeks. Got the
>>>music today and will be sightreading it as concertmaster at tomorrow's
>>>rehearsal. It's very hard to lead when you don't know the music.
>>>
>>>Yes, I'll practice, but I'd sure like a place to pay for and download a
>>>legal copy *right now* so I could hear what it sounds like.
>>
>>http://winmx.com/
>
>
> And where does the "legal" part fit in?
I don't know. Is WinMX illegal? I'm guessing the RIAA would be all over
it if it were. It's been around for years.
I daresay you could download an MP3 copy that would suit your immediate
purposes until you could purchase a "legal" copy. BEing the good citizen
you are, I'm sure you'd delete the MP3 and send the copyright holder a
quarter or two. ;^)
Yes, I have KaZaa on my computer
> at the house, installed by some of the local teenagers, and I may even get
> desperate enough to use it, but it's the principal. There's little enough
> support for classical recordings as it is.
Kazaa is not the same as WinMX.
>
> Mark made a good point of both ordering and downloading. That makes the
> most sense, given the current industry status.
>
> What I want to do is go to the Sony website and pay a small fee to download
> a licensed copy of this music in WAV format. I wonder how many years we
> are away from that dream?
Not in our lifetime!
Artie
>
Les Cargill
To me, your use comes under "fair use". I do not know why it
cannot be accomodated.
There are several MIDI dumping ground on the web...
Dunno what this is, but Google up the title, see what floats.
http://www.8notes.com/artist216.asp
--
Les Cargill
Alan Halverson
receipts proving that the same number of copies have been ordered. So,
ordering this from Amazon and then finding a copy on Kazaa or whatever
should leave you with a clear conscience and a virtual paper trail proving
that you owned the recording at the time you downloaded it.
_Alan
"Carey Carlan" <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns935CEACEEC652...@198.99.146.10...
Laurence Payne
>Kazaa is not the same as WinMX.
In my experience, Kazaa often comes up with the goods, WinMX rarely.
Apart from being different networks, what are the basic differences?
Laurence Payne
>at the house, installed by some of the local teenagers, and I may even get
>desperate enough to use it, but it's the principal. There's little enough
>support for classical recordings as it is.
You let the "local teenagers" install a virus-trap like Kazaa on your
computer? I'd have thought you'd have wanted to keep close personal
control over such a risky (nonetheless useful at times) tool? :-)
Arny Krueger
"Laurence Payne" <l...@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sokl9vo9i3onvs24b...@4ax.com...
>
> >Kazaa is not the same as WinMX.
>
> In my experience, Kazaa often comes up with the goods, WinMX rarely.
> Apart from being different networks, what are the basic differences?
>
The size of the den of thieves.
;-)
scott spelbring
>
>> a licensed copy of this music in WAV format. I wonder how many years we
>> are away from that dream?
>
>Not in our lifetime!
Its already happening, though not in WAV format. (more expensive for providers
to give you a 35 mb download option over a 3 mb MP3/AAC option that has drm and
watermarking embedded) All the major labels have begun licensing their content
and you will see a crop of these services spring to life over the next few
years. Count on Bestbuy and Amazon being huge players. ("you just ordered the
album online so while its in transit, click here to listen to it") The main
issues right now are drm technology (or lack thereof with regards to a
standard) and price point that works with licensing agreements. Subscription or
ala carte. May not work but it is and has been happening for a while.
The piece that you are looking for should be public domain right now. Meaning
that there are many versions publicly available on the web. MP3.com had a bunch
of Saint-Saen's performed by various orchestras. This is probably the wrong
piece but its an example:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/179/ubc_symphony_orchestra.html
Arts on Tour has Saint-Saëns - Last Movement: Concerto No 2 for piano and
orchestra in G minor, Op. 22 - 6:46. Available in Quicktime and MP3 for free as
a promotion on their site.
http://www.artsontour.com/totheworld/stephane_lemelin/audio_video.html
scott spelbring | recording + interactive | dragonflyeast.com
Artie Turner
I use WinMX occasionally on another PC, and I've never used KaZaa. My
understanding of KaZaa is that it is a distributed processing network
that just happens to allow a certain amount of file sharing.
WinMX is a strictly a peer-to-peer app - a tool, no advertising,
cookies, distributed processing, etc.
Tools can be used for any purpose, legal or otherwise.
Artie
Patric D'Eimon
copies of the receipt ;-) I've talked with many, many publishers over the
years for different reasons and they all have a little chuckle over the
copying thing. Hopefully we all have the ethical guidance to do what is
right because there are NO publisher cops out there. No one, no where, never
has been. At least not for the casual, local use that any number of use has
been guilty of over these many years. Commercial use, yes. Casual use, no.
Think of all the unpaid royalties for sitting around jamming on Beatles
tunes. Coffeehouses, folk festivals, busking, open mics, jam nights in
clubs. The "blanket" fees that clubs pay tries to cover this because they
make money. But most of the casual stuff is just that, casual and on one
pays and there is no one to ask them to pay.
We are guided by our own conscience. Have receipts if you want but there
would be on one to show them to. Unless the new Department Of Homeland
Security is taking that task up. If you need to learn a piece of music, down
load it and learn it. Send someone some money if you think it is required
but don't think someone is out there tracking your use. You get to be
responsible for your own casual use. No one else knows or cares.
Here is how it's been characterized to me many times. Say I use the pink
Floyd song Money in a local Community Theater play. If the publisher
happened to find out, there is pretty much nothing that can or would be done
besides asking you to stop it. Anything else has to go through the courts in
a legal fashion. Again, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we
should use it or not. That is our own conscience. The consequences are the
stuff of urban legends. Patric
Jny Vee
Carlan <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
you;re that far from a record shop?
(not trying to hurt you at all... anyone playing real music deserves
all the help they can get!)
How do you decide which version you listen to as reference?
How does that allow you to keep a shot at your own interpretation of
the work?
--
Perspective is vital to wisdom. It is indeed a good
thing to know that for every ELECTRIC LADYLAND there
were months/years/decades of tracking The Archies.
>> Help Keep The Net Emoticon Free! <<
Jny Vee
Carlan <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What I want to do is go to the Sony website and pay a small fee to download
> a licensed copy of this music in WAV format. I wonder how many years we
> are away from that dream?
Only as long as it takes to renegotiate the contracts of all concerned
for each record.
That's all it ever HAS been about.
Mike Rivers
> That is the most useful suggestion I've gotten thus far. Don't MIDI files
> have the same copyright restrictions as MP3's?
Technically, yes. The Industry managed to shut down the Compuserve
MIDI Forum's file library as well as several large MIDI BBSs 10 years
or so ago. The test case was "Unchained Melody." But today they
realize that MIDI files are not perfect clones (or as near perfect as
an MP3-compressed version is) of the original, and they're more
interested in prosecuting for mechanical copyright violation than song
copyright violation.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Ricky W. Hunt
I do this type of thing all the time. Due to my paralysis I can't just jump
up and put on a CD whenever I want so if I own the CD I just jump on Kazaa
(I have a high speed connection) and in about 30 seconds I'm listening to
the song.
Ricky W. Hunt
> What I want to do is go to the Sony website and pay a small fee to
download
> a licensed copy of this music in WAV format. I wonder how many years we
> are away from that dream?
It's already here. I have a subscription to Listen.com that let's me listen
on demand to all the music I want and they have a huge selection of most all
current popular music, stuff going all the way back to Ella's first
recordings, Robert Johnson up to the latest by Eminem and including quite a
bit of classical. Unlimited streaming is $9.95/month and they just had a
special of unlimited burning at 49 cents a song. That's pretty decent in my
book.
Here's a legal place to get Saint-Saens work for free (it's a trial of 50
free MP3's but you can buy them for just pennies per song):
http://www.emusic.com/cd/10587/10587528.html. I don't know if they have the
concerto you're looking for though.
Here's a MIDI file I found.
http://www.midifilearchive.com/Classical/Saint-Saens2ndPCGM.mid. Nobody
"owns" MIDI and they're always completely legal as long as the song doesn't
have a current copyright (is public domain, etc. which a huge amount of
classical is). Some companies sell MIDI sequences that are professionally
sequenced and that one particular MIDI file is copyrighted but I could play
the exact same song myself and give it to you free. These kind of
professional sequences fall into the same category as audio recordings. Of
course the catch among the free ones sequenced by amatuers is you don't know
the quality of the performance. I've heard some of the most godawful,
quantized, big-note-songbook sequences done by amateurs. The worst is when
someone tries to use something like Band In A Box to sequence "Papa's Got A
Brand New Bag". But some of the classical MIDIs out there are done by some
incredible players and you could hardly tell it from a live recording
(assuming the soundfont you use to play it is decent).
MikeyW
Ricky,
You'd better double-check that. Audio recordings are NOT the same as MIDI
sequences. Your last 2 sentences below are contradictory. If you copy audio
of a song, you do NOT have the right to give it to anyone else. That's a
direct violation of copyright law. I'm not even convinced that a MIDI file
copy given away wouldn't also be a violation. I would think the
songwriter/publisher would deserve a royalty (if not public domain).
Mikey
Nova Music Productions
<http://www.novamusicproductions.com>
Ricky W. Hunt wrote in message ...
Jny Vee
In article <b7hf4f$lo0$1...@news.chatlink.com>, "MikeyW"
<novamusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Carey Carlan
How about "on one of the 4 computers in the house". Better? The computer
that has world access also does some music processing, but nothing
important.
Besides, they're good kids! :)
Carey Carlan
> Send someone some money if
> you think it is required but don't think someone is out there tracking
> your use. You get to be responsible for your own casual use. No one
> else knows or cares.
This is one of those points where legality and ethics meet. I want a big
library of classical music out there for years to come. I may even
contribute to it someday if my recording chops improve enough. Getting a
"legal" copy means supporting those who made it so they'll make more.
Carey Carlan
news:140420031618563946%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com:
> you;re that far from a record shop?
> (not trying to hurt you at all... anyone playing real music deserves
> all the help they can get!)
>
> How do you decide which version you listen to as reference?
> How does that allow you to keep a shot at your own interpretation of
> the work?
I'd take any version in that kind of crisis. The interpretation will be
that of our director.
I'm probably 10 minutes from a dozen places that sell CD. My collection at
home probably rivals the in-store stock of half of them. Finding classical
recordings (other than the workhorses) in stock is as hard as finding Tommy
Dorsey or Cab Calloway.
Carey Carlan
Thanks for the many replies. The MIDI files were the most helpful. Aside
from being bone dry interpretations (bad) they let me set tempo and work
through the more difficult passages (good).
Carey Carlan
I was unaware that such services existed. This will be an valuable
resource in the future. Thank you.
Patric D'Eimon
favor of unlicensed use or not supporting. But...there is a real world way
of looking at use. This guy wants to download a copy of the music to learn
it so he can go out and perform it. By performing it he is promoting it in
a big way. Supporting the music in a big way. Hopefully he got a license
for the "use level" of performing the piece in public. At the level of
downloading it to learn the piece, I wouldn't bother.
It occurred to me one time a long time ago as I was playing in folk clubs
singing Jackson Browne songs that I was promoting Jackson Browne. So was
everybody else I knew. Of course none of us sent JB any money. In
retrospect I use it as an example. For us urchins playing pop music in
clubs making the few bucks we made, we were this small disorganized army of
musicians promoting the popular music of the day. They didn't pay us to
promote the pop artists and we didn't pay them for using the songs. But
both sides were better off for the use. At that casual use, "street level"
use of music, I don't feel to obliged to report my use and there is no one
who is tracking it or who really cares. Only when some serious money starts
being generated does the publishing industry start actively tracking and at
the point serious money is going to be made, or not made, is where the
ethical trip-wire is for me. I'm happy to pay my dues to the owners of the
piece when I stand to gain something from it's use. Up to that point I'm
just an underpaid promoter of someone else's work.
Just about that time I realized I was promoting Jackson Browne and others I
also said "screw that". If I'm going to spend my time promoting someone it
ought to be ME! So I bailed out of performing other artists material
anyways.
Patric
Jny Vee
Carlan <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jny Vee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in
> news:140420031618563946%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com:
>
> > you;re that far from a record shop?
> > (not trying to hurt you at all... anyone playing real music deserves
> > all the help they can get!)
> >
> > How do you decide which version you listen to as reference?
> > How does that allow you to keep a shot at your own interpretation of
> > the work?
>
> I'd take any version in that kind of crisis.
sometimes it works that way... 'sometimes' happens too often for my
ease of mind in projects...!
The interpretation will be
> that of our director.
>
> I'm probably 10 minutes from a dozen places that sell CD. My collection at
> home probably rivals the in-store stock of half of them. Finding classical
> recordings (other than the workhorses) in stock is as hard as finding Tommy
> Dorsey or Cab Calloway.
I'm jaded I guess, Lots of sources here though I do admit that compared
with 10 years ago, it stinks! Most every Classical record I've bought
in the last years I ordered special. The Bamert Mussorgsky/Stokowsky
set on CHANDOS just gets me every time... Russian Music Indeed!
Jny Vee
wrote:
> Just about that time I realized I was promoting Jackson Browne and others I
> also said "screw that". If I'm going to spend my time promoting someone it
> ought to be ME! So I bailed out of performing other artists material
> anyways.
Cool, that;s a hell of a leap in guts and forced-learning-skill and
effort to run up your own creative output. If another artist went
platinum with an album of your stuff, would you fell like you deserved
a piece of it?
>
> You are right and I keep making sure I cover my butt by saying I am not in
> favor of unlicensed use or not supporting. But...there is a real world way
> of looking at use. This guy wants to download a copy of the music to learn
> it so he can go out and perform it. By performing it he is promoting it in
> a big way. Supporting the music in a big way. Hopefully he got a license
> for the "use level" of performing the piece in public. At the level of
> downloading it to learn the piece, I wouldn't bother.
And here you walk right out of ethical reality into 'convienience'
ethics. this ONLY works if the guy in question has been HIRED by the
original artist to 'promote' the song by performing it... and I can;t
recall EVER seeing any such thing done. You might as well claim you
have every right to walk into a Ford dealership and drive whatever you
want off the lot free since you're 'promoting the car' by driving it
around for them...
Your example has someone wanting to perform the song... why?
If he's literally going out to clubs and on tour with PRODUCT from the
ORIGINAL ARTIST and making sure -every time- he plays the tune that he
makes a verbal pitch, then and there, for the audience to "be sure and
stop by at the break and buy this other guy's record!" than maybe I'd
think about trying to buy the idea, but invariably, the guy's adding to
HIS OWN repertoire with more better stuff than he can write on his own
so he can GET GIGS, and that indeed is him USING that song for his own
needs and he needs to pay for the 'learner copy' or a trip to the
original artist's house to sit on the porch and learn it from him in
person.
>
> It occurred to me one time a long time ago as I was playing in folk clubs
> singing Jackson Browne songs that I was promoting Jackson Browne. So was
> everybody else I knew. Of course none of us sent JB any money. In
> retrospect I use it as an example.
see above, thanks for nailing down how well it works.
> For us urchins playing pop music in
> clubs making the few bucks we made, we were this small disorganized army of
> musicians promoting the popular music of the day.
welllll, that's a fascinating rationale, more I think it's a
disorganised army of ego-driven performers who want to get some of the
star-stuff dustd off on themselves by jumping up in front of the
blue-n-red pars and strut their stuff. It's hip, it's fun, like being
in a play but easier to pull off.
>They didn't pay us to
> promote the pop artists
why in the world SHOULD they... you;re the CONSUMER...
>... and we didn't pay them for using the songs.
and if anybody ever paid you money to play, you owe teh original artist
since WITHOUT them, you would never have gotten out of the basement.
> But
> both sides were better off for the use.
I'm still not sure how you're so sure about how great a contribution
you were to Jackson's career...
> At that casual use, "street level"
> use of music, I don't feel to obliged to report my use and there is no one
> who is tracking it or who really cares.
Did you ever -ask- Mr Brown or his label (who paid for the $eriou$ly
expen$ive promotion that made you and everybody else outside of
Californmia aware of him) if they cared?
> Only when some serious money starts
> being generated does the publishing industry start actively tracking and at
> the point serious money is going to be made, or not made, is where the
> ethical trip-wire is for me.
And that level starts oddly enough, at your local bar or pub or
anyplace that is open to the public and plays music to attract said
public.
> I'm happy to pay my dues to the owners of the
> piece when I stand to gain something from it's use.
Still wondering what the olgic is that you;re using to establish when
you DO pay and when you DON;t when it's THEIR call, not yours to make
and so far it seems you haven;t ever asked ANYBODY about what they
might want form you.
> Up to that point I'm
> just an underpaid promoter of someone else's work.
nor unless you have a contract for doing that job for them.
Patric D'Eimon
the Hosannas. You are squeeky clean man. And we all know your reasoning. So
I'm guessing that everytime you played a gig that involved someone elses music
you sent the artist a check. I'm kidding of course. Clubs have blanket
licenses for that and so do churches.
It's the way the world works. Or used to work. I'm an old guy now. New cool
songs come out, Learn them, Thrill the dancers and the girls with 'em and soak
up whatever glory there is in it. That's the fun of it. Sorry you missed that
part. There is nothing like it.
It does very much promote whoever is getting played. In the old days it was
whether the Major Acts got played in the clubs that contributed to their staying
power. These days it is whether the DJ's will pick them up and spin them. It's
always been that way. Sorry you missed that too. It's radio, and then there is
more than radio. The musicians out there in the clubs covering this stuff is
the "more than radio" part of it. Sorry you missed that part of it.
You can yabber about what is right and proper all you want and by all means be a
man of your word. When I was clubbing, it's been awhile since then, we played
the songs till they weren't popular anymore and moved on. It was and probably
still is the way of pop music. That kind of stuff NEVER gets properly
licensed. I guess that is not anything you have done. Sorry you missed that
part. It was a gas.
Every year my daughters and their friends, in fact the whole school (also in
schools all over America) would put on talent shows and they would all do
Madonna or Whitney or Boys To Men. Sorry pal. I didn't send in any checks. I
produced little songs for them to sing in the studio like Oh Sweet Pea or other
goofy stuff. Again, no checks. I back up voice students all the time doing pop
stuff for recitals. No checks. I get my guitar students and voice students to
learn songs from pop artists. I send in no checks. I'll stand up and sing
Greatest Love Of All or One Moment in Time for someone's conference.
Again....no checks. I sit in at the local blues club and we do Whipping Post or
Bring It On Home To Me. I don't call Harry Fox to clear it.
I'm just not on your moral plane JNY Vee. But I sleep fine at night. My point
is about casual use. At some point it's a wash. We don't pay they don't ask.
At a different level of use it becomes a solely moral/ethical question because
there is no one policing the casual use but you know there is an obligation.
And then at another higher level of use it is a legal concern. The levels are
not clearly defined. As nothing ever is clearly defined. Not every time I know
there is an obligation would I pay and then sometimes I would pay without being
obliged because it is a good thing to do. Not that I am ever in any of these
positions. I did send money in for music that was used in a Community Theater
play. We clear music for use in videos. It doesn't come up often. Just like
you, I'm just typing to see what it is I'll say. That was fun...Patric
Carey Carlan
> I'm jaded I guess, Lots of sources here though I do admit that
> compared with 10 years ago, it stinks! Most every Classical record
> I've bought in the last years I ordered special.
And that is *exactly* the point I'm trying to convey. I'd love to "special
order" it from their computer directly to mine in CD quality. Having to
order it online or locally both require days of delay--something I can't
afford when the concert is less than two weeks away (4/27).
A better solution would be to perform something I know! <emoticon deleted>
Jny Vee
and I sure ain't calling you names in any of this. Too few good folks
around to just use 'em for dart boards when you find one.
In article <3E9DEDD6...@gci.net>, Patric D'Eimon <pat...@gci.net>
wrote:
> Hey JNY Vee. If you do all the stuff you are promoting here then you get all
> the Hosannas. You are squeeky clean man.
Not hardly, I did my time playing covers. Just today in cleaning I
unearthed an R&B music-set cassette of GREAT stuff that a friend and I
put together in '78 or so... goes from James Brown thru AWB into Nick
Lowe, THe Jam and a bunch of killer late 70's brit bands that knew from
whence came rock-via-Motown with a groove (that dammit i CAN:T remember
who they ARE!) into Wreckless Eric and to rory Gallagher and Edgar
Winter's White Trash...it's killer.. it's a copy (you can hear the
vinyl go by)... we paid nobody.
I'm a sinner.
I'm a hypocrite.
9/10ths of everything I've ever done is shit.
SO WHAT!? 9/10ths of EVERYTHING is shit.
(thank you Mr.Sturgeon)
we work on the good tenth and try to get better.
Stop sniping, it doesn't help anybody and just makes ya look snide and
like you'd rather throw tomatoes rather than dig in and look at the
real deal that's getting abused. You've got perspective, you;re not a
20-sumthn MPFree whiner... you;re worth hearing out.
Me not being a bloody saint is NOT the point...
it's stuff that, was as you said, 'no-big-deal' for decades (AND it's
gotta be kept front-and-center that ALL of us who DID that stuff are
the CAUSE of the surtax-on-blank-media idea in the first place) but
NOW with things being the way they are, free-distribution-and-copying
for Joe Sixpak, and the resultant whining "The Majors Are Screwing The
artists" nonsense, it HAS to be addressed all the way round. We have to
make it right or we'll HAVE no more good bands, just ones that indeed
are worth every penny we pay for free mp3's of their music, whether
they allow it or not.
> And we all know your reasoning.
OK. I missed a post here in the thread i guess...
For Those Who Came In Late:
who's 'WE'
what's 'my reasoning'?
> So
> I'm guessing that everytime you played a gig that involved someone elses music
> you sent the artist a check. Clubs have blanket
> licenses for that and so do churches.
Yeah in the last bunch of years that's been covered by individual
venue-licenses with BMI/ASCAP/FOX etc.
Anyplace that has music playback, live or on a system, has to have a
(darned cheap) coverage. It works.
> I'm kidding of course.
but we shouldn't be. I had to try and run this gauntlet a year ago,
client/friend (those are the hardest ones to say no to) handed me a
cassette and wanted me to turn it into a CD for some family overseas
for Christmas gifts. They were happy to pay my hourly for the work. I
smiled tautly and said i'd 'see what i can do'... I tracked down the
engineer and the artist/producer from the liners, and called em and
asked if it was available on CD, it wasn't. I told em up what I
wanted.. permission to make a transfer and a VERY (less than 10)
limited number of CD copies. They confabbed and got back to me days
later and said sure... send us a CD and the cover-price for however
many you make and we're fine. They COULD have just said NO, and if
they'd've talked to a lawyer first it might have gone that way but
everything went fine. I felt good. maybe I'm a mm less-far from
sainthood, I don;t care. It was the right thing to do. AND it worked
out. Everybody won. I dug it. sue me.
> It's the way the world works. Or used to work. I'm an old guy now. New cool
> songs come out, Learn them, Thrill the dancers and the girls with 'em and
> soak
> up whatever glory there is in it. That's the fun of it. Sorry you missed
> that
> part. There is nothing like it.
Been there done that. 'missed that'? not. Good grief (it's
incomprehensbile but) even signed autographs on tour... boggles the
mind doesn't it (THAT one was by the book...)
>
> It does very much promote whoever is getting played.
Nobody said different
> In the old days it was
> whether the Major Acts got played in the clubs that contributed to their
> staying
> power. These days it is whether the DJ's will pick them up and spin them.
> It's
> always been that way.
Never said different
>Sorry you missed that too.
I guess, Sorry that (so far anyway) all your assumptions about my
checkered career have been off the mark. Radio for years. 70's Disco
Craze in Dc clubs, sound mix for custom-assembled house cover bands in
Miami, was there, hated it, dove out... not my love. But didn't miss
the concept and touching the edge.
> It's radio, and then there
> is
> more than radio. The musicians out there in the clubs covering this stuff is
> the "more than radio" part of it. Sorry you missed that part of it.
Where are we now, 0-for4 or something? this really needs to be a
conversation rather than a sniping contest...
>
> You can yabber about what is right and proper all you want and by all means
> be a
> man of your word.
I try. It's all any of us can do. LOOKING hard at the issues,
collectively, then seperately and then back together again is vital.
> When I was clubbing, it's been awhile since then, we played
> the songs till they weren't popular anymore and moved on. It was and probably
> still is the way of pop music. That kind of stuff NEVER gets properly
> licensed. I guess that is not anything you have done. Sorry you missed that
> part. It was a gas.
Whew... I hope this is at least fun for you.
> Every year my daughters and their friends, in fact the whole school (also in
> schools all over America) would put on talent shows and they would all do
> Madonna or Whitney or Boys To Men. Sorry pal. I didn't send in any checks.
> I
> produced little songs for them to sing in the studio like Oh Sweet Pea or
> other
> goofy stuff. Again, no checks. I back up voice students all the time doing
> pop
> stuff for recitals. No checks. I get my guitar students and voice students
> to
> learn songs from pop artists. I send in no checks. I'll stand up and sing
> Greatest Love Of All or One Moment in Time for someone's conference.
> Again....no checks. I sit in at the local blues club and we do Whipping Post
> or
> Bring It On Home To Me. I don't call Harry Fox to clear it.
But it's more and more imprtant to be LOOKIONG at 'not sending a check'
now that there's no subsidisation of teh practice form teh
income/distribution control side of teh equation.
> I'm just not on your moral plane JNY Vee.
ahhh, yes, but then who -is- these days? Here in the rarified
atmosphere of Valhalla I find few I can really converse with as equals,
such is the price of godhood.
>But I sleep fine at night. My
> point
> is about casual use.
A much-msiused and abused word of late...
> At some point it's a wash.
SURE it is. Really! It has to be.
it;s just that WHERE that point is has shifted and if we don;t keep it
in our heads, we're going to run the biz into the ground.
Folk Music (and pop music is just the modern imbodiment of folk
music... the music of the common good ol' rabble) has ALWAYS been about
'pas-it-on', about "i learned this great tune form this guy...listen".
What makes it whacky is when the guy you learned it from is depending
on SOMETHIGN coming form that tune, wherever it gets used AND that if
YOU take it and make a THING out of it, rememebring that wothout it,
you wouldn;t have made a THING and thus your success depended on him,
if we do NOT stay amind of who the giants we stand on ARE, and make
sure they get some of their due for what WE use their issue -for-, we
will not HAVE any more giants and we'll all be standing in the mud
trying to remember if there was somethign Up THere that was different
from mud.
> At a different level of use it becomes a solely moral/ethical question because
> there is no one policing the casual use but you know there is an obligation.
> And then at another higher level of use it is a legal concern.
I'd reverse these; KNOWING who you owe and insisting to yourself that
that gets taken care of, is a higher concern than "who;s gonna whack me
if they catches me for stealin?" worries.
the former is ethics, the latter is theft.
> The levels are
> not clearly defined.
For what it;s worth, the basic deal itself is pretty crystal, what you
DO about it is only as vague as you want it to be. You use something
you got from someone else, you owe them some something. HOW MUCH might
be a little dicey to decide, but, like tipping your waitress, you can
be straight or you can be cheap.
> As nothing ever is clearly defined. Not every time I
> know
> there is an obligation would I pay and then sometimes I would pay without
> being
> obliged because it is a good thing to do. Not that I am ever in any of these
> positions. I did send money in for music that was used in a Community Theater
> play.
You kinda HAVE to don;t ya?
> We clear music for use in videos. It doesn't come up often. Just like
> you, I'm just typing to see what it is I'll say. That was fun...
Thats good!
Jny Vee
Carlan <gul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jny Vee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in
> news:160420031824544955%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com:
>
> > I'm jaded I guess, Lots of sources here though I do admit that
> > compared with 10 years ago, it stinks! Most every Classical record
> > I've bought in the last years I ordered special.
>
> And that is *exactly* the point I'm trying to convey.
heck, GO tthe point when you explained the schedule thing! I'm
sympathetic! I'd be tempted to buy a CD from a place by phone and see
if they;d overnight it.
> I'd love to "special
> order" it from their computer directly to mine in CD quality.
They;re workin on it. I still haven;t see a contract that incorporates
web-distribution rights and such...
> Having to
> order it online or locally both require days of delay--something I can't
> afford when the concert is less than two weeks away (4/27).
>
> A better solution would be to perform something I know! <emoticon deleted>
patric
enjoy your input and POV in this group. Your responses usually pull no
punches but I seldom sense malice in them. The "Reasoning" line was
about the fact that we all know what is correct by the BOOK and that
seems to be what you were throwing at me in your first response. I
could just as easily see myself saying the exact same things in a post
were I to choose the POV of what is the RIGHT (by the book) thing to do.
The side I was exploring is the side of it the way it usually gets done
and of course that will never pass scrutiny if compared to way where
everybody does all the right things.
You are right. There is always room to improve (the 10%) and an
enduring vigilance must be held for keeping the standards as high as
possible. Like I said, I'm not promoting misuse of other peoples work.
I'm just pointing out that in the messy underworld of music, all the t's
don't get crossed and all the I's don't get dot's. Call it the cost of
doing business.
I suspected you've had a colorful music career but you were throwing
such a righteous line at me I had to poke back at you.
It would be a long and loud debate to say we are the cause of the
industry's maladies. We inherited problems and invented privileges like
those before us and those who followed. Those before me were using 1/4
trk tape to copy stuff. We used cassettes and those doing it now have
tools we couldn't imagine. We might have pissed the industry off with
our unauthorized covers and our cassettes but the current generation
armed with peer to peer, mp3's ipods etc have forever changed the face,
heart and will of the industry. I'm not taking credit for it nor should
you. Nor do any of us know how this will all shake out. I suspect it
will be workable mixture of good and bad like it has always been. Your
point is well taken to hold for honesty ethics and integrity as it all
shakes out.
Once again, I was just messing with you about your career. I have no
way of knowing. I'm sure it has been large and colorful. As for me I
did enjoy all of that stuff I referred to. I have always had this
gratitude for being able make my living playing, writing, arranging, and
running all up and down the West Coast playing and being a fool. I
ended up with a raging drug/alchohol problem (17 years in AA now) but it
was all worth it. Go figure.
As for remembering the giants whose shoulders I've stood on, I do. I'm
forever grateful. I chose this POV for the fun of it and it doesn't
tell my story and that is not important. I walk a pretty straight line
and as I said I gave up covers years ago. I make CD's of my own stuff
now and try to market them as I can and try to get my own music out
there and I come up against my own friends copying my CD's rather than
buy product. Crap. Who'da thunk it. I seem to be in the midst of both
sides of the problem. But that's the fun of it I guess. I'm just happy
that I get to throw my hat in the ring. Glad to be at the party.
As for Valhalla. That's all well and good and the Spiritual Giant thing
is admirable but us on this list knows that it's a great mic collection
and great pre's that really counts.
I'm going to guess that my sniping hasn't injured you in any way and
I'll get back to enjoying your points and replys on the group. Now that
I know what it's like to get caught in your crosshairs I'll enjoy them
all the more.
Peace....Patric
Jny Vee
> Hey JNY Vee. I'm not taking this personally or seriously.
I take it personally not at all and seriously when it makes sense to.
the issues deserve the seriousness to look at 'em hard and take no
prisoners, the people, never.
> Once again, I was just messing with you about your career. I have no
> way of knowing. I'm sure it has been large and colorful.
colorful, somewhat... large, not.
> As for me I
> did enjoy all of that stuff I referred to. I have always had this
> gratitude for being able make my living playing, writing, arranging, and
> running all up and down the West Coast playing and being a fool. I
> ended up with a raging drug/alchohol problem (17 years in AA now) but it
> was all worth it. Go figure.
if you take nothing at all else from this tennis match, take this:
Big head-on serious props on the 17, man.
> As for Valhalla. That's all well and good and the Spiritual Giant thing
> is admirable but us on this list knows that it's a great mic collection
> and great pre's that really counts.
what th...
where's my thunderbolt... I'll show ya...
>
> I'm going to guess that my sniping hasn't injured you in any way and
> I'll get back to enjoying your points and replys on the group. Now that
> I know what it's like to get caught in your crosshairs I'll enjoy them
> all the more.
no crosshairs here except for trying to bounce the ideas back and forth
enough to shake some rust off them and see ;em a little clearer.
>
> Peace....Patric
indeed
DjvartanCOM
rocksteady
I have Kazaa lite on my box and I never have any problems with
viruses.
Al