Best U87 Copy?
Xzef
Neumann U87?
With 10 being identical in performance and 1 being similar in appearance but
totally inferior in performance.
Mike
Scott Dorsey
>Rated on a scale from 1 to 10 what competitor comes closest to copying the
>Neumann U87?
Neumann. The KMS105 sounds an awful lot like a U87 on-axis. The pattern is
clean and tight, though, unlike a U87, so a lot of the positioning tricks
that you're used to with the U87 won't work. Still, if you have a voice
that needs that sound, the KMS105 is surprisingly good, for a lot less than
a U87.
I'd give it at least a 5, more if you don't mind the pattern issues. Which
is a lot more than I'd give either of the Chinese U87 clones.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
David Satz
> [W]hat competitor comes closest to copying the Neumann U87?
Best copy: the Neumann U 87A (not quite as high a maximum
SPL as the original U 87, and Stephen Paul might call its capsule
less "jewel-like" for whatever effect that may have on the sound--
but otherwise rather close overall, with lower self-noise and
higher sensitivity).
Next best copy: the Neumann TLM 103 (cardioid only, a little
more shine on the very top, and lacking the output transformer
and the pad and low-cut switches of the U 87; also lower self-
noise and higher sensitivity).
--You probably wouldn't like the old U 67 or M 269 since they
don't have as much response at 10+ kHz as the U 87. They also
use strange semiconductor devices which actually get hot during
normal use (you can even see a glow coming from those circuit
parts if you open the case, which is not recommended), and
they require special cables and don't work with standard 48
Volt phantom powering. So if you have either of those two
obsolete models, you may send them to me.
Likewise if you have an SM 69, SM 69fet or USM 69 stereo
microphone, which is effectively two U 87s stuck together in
a common body, that's a real misfortune--you can't separate
them to close-mike two singers at the same time or to space
them apart over a drum kit, so they're useless--again, you can
save yourself the heartbreak and send them to me, because you
clearly wouldn't be satisfied with them.
(Uh, you do recognize irony when you see it, I hope?)
Chris Young
Chris
Xzef <xz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000628073626...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
> Rated on a scale from 1 to 10 what competitor comes closest to copying the
> Neumann U87?
Steve607
>
>Chris
I agree, I think that the Blueberry sounds more like the U87 then the TLM 103,
which I find has a gawky midrange, and does not capture the source as natural
as the U87. If you get up on that Blueberry, it sounds like a slightly more
crisp 87... very nice mic.
David 'db' Butler
sold a ton of them: not one buyer has been unhappy. If you are
interested, we can sell you one at a very good price.
Nothing else that looks like a Neumann sounds much like a Neumann,
especially the offerings from Microtech Gefell. The latter is odd, since
it was the East German factory of Neumann before the Iron Curtain.
I am told that the more expensive BPM model is "somewhat" like a U87 but
we have not auditioned them side by side.
We are getting some sample from everyones favorite mic factory, "#777"
in China: we will report back when we have heard them.
db
In article <20000628073626...@ng-fm1.aol.com>, xz...@aol.com
(Xzef) wrote:
> Rated on a scale from 1 to 10 what competitor comes closest to copying
> the
> Neumann U87?
> With 10 being identical in performance and 1 being similar in appearance
> but
> totally inferior in performance.
>
> Mike
>
>
--
David 'db' Butler, Consultant
Acoustics by db
"...all the rest are just brokers"
now on the web at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~ob1db Boston, Mass Phone 617 969-0585 Fax 617 964-1590
ManicJanik
<< ...The KMS105 sounds an awful lot like a U87 on-axis. The pattern is
clean and tight, though, unlike a U87, so a lot of the positioning tricks
that you're used to with the U87 won't work. >>
<<SNIP>>
Sorry, I just don't get it. What do you guys hear in an 87 doing vocals?
Whenever I've used 87's for vox, they have always sounded very honky and
nasal-y. I am a pro, not a hobbiest. I've used some really great 49's, 47's,
C-800's, C-12's, ELAM 251's, etc... to do vocals with some really great
vocalists. I've TRIED the 87, but I would really like to understand what the
attraction is.
No sarcasm here. I would really like to hear your explanations/opinions. Is it
possible that the ones I had available to me were ALL in bad condition? Could I
have been using the "newer" versions which supposedly don't sound as good?
Please enlighten me, cuz I might be interested in renting one or picking one up
the next time I do a vocal session if I knew what you "87 lovers" knew
JJ NYC
Steve607
>Whenever I've used 87's for vox, they have always sounded very honky and
>nasal-y. I am a pro, not a hobbiest. I've used some really great 49's, 47's,
>C-800's, C-12's, ELAM 251's, etc... to do vocals with some really great
>vocalists. I've TRIED the 87, but I would really like to understand what the
>attraction is.
>
>No sarcasm here. I would really like to hear your explanations/opinions. Is
>it
>possible that the ones I had available to me were ALL in bad condition? Could
>I
>have been using the "newer" versions which supposedly don't sound as good?
>Please enlighten me, cuz I might be interested in renting one or picking one
>up
>the next time I do a vocal session if I knew what you "87 lovers" knew
>
>JJ NYC
>
"honky" midrange, and the TLM 103 hightens this honkiness. It definitely
sounds very bad on some vocalists, especially those of the male grunge vocal
sound (which seem to pile in my studio), It smoothes out the grungy character.
I think U87s sound much better on females.. they are great mics, but for vox
there are lots better.
Fuzzbot
stev...@aol.com (Steve607) wrote:
> >Sorry, I just don't get it. What do you guys hear in an 87 doing
vocals?
Like anything it has it's place and although a 47 or a U95/99 is the
first place I'd turn sometimes the 87 works perfectly.
> I agree with you, I find that the U87 has kind of a "weird" and maybe
even
> "honky" midrange, and the TLM 103 hightens this honkiness. It
definitely
> sounds very bad on some vocalists, especially those of the male
grunge vocal
> sound (which seem to pile in my studio), It smoothes out the grungy
character.
> I think U87s sound much better on females.. they are great mics, but
for vox
> there are lots better.
A few weeks ago this guy comes in to cut a vocal/B3 thing for a Tommy
Dowd production and after we finish the B3 stuff we head up the street
to the "vocal studio" and the the guy stands in front of the U48 and
U47 and says "you gotta nasty ass beat up 87 in here?" In a few minutes
the mic was up and running through a 1272 (not always a first choice of
mine for vox)into a La2a and he says "yeah that's it." It was an
incredible vocal sound that worked perfectly for the guy. I guess the
moral to the story is that everyone needs to have one for situations
like this and although the "vocal studio" guy and myself wouldn't have
thought to do this Gregg knew better.
--
Kevin F. Rose
Elevated Basement Studio
"Forever is my witness in the end"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Scott Dorsey
Chris Young <ctye...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I thought the "Blueberry" sounded an aweful lot like the U-87..
No, not really. I can't stand the top end on the U87, and the Blueberry
sounded a lot nicer on typical vocals to me.
Scott Dorsey
ManicJanik <manic...@aol.com> wrote:
> klu...@netcom.com wrote:
>
><< ...The KMS105 sounds an awful lot like a U87 on-axis. The pattern is
>clean and tight, though, unlike a U87, so a lot of the positioning tricks
>that you're used to with the U87 won't work. >>
><<SNIP>>
>
>nasal-y. I am a pro, not a hobbiest. I've used some really great 49's, 47's,
>C-800's, C-12's, ELAM 251's, etc... to do vocals with some really great
>vocalists. I've TRIED the 87, but I would really like to understand what the
>attraction is.
I don't like the U87 at all... but if people want the U87 sound....
digit...@my-deja.com
David 'db' Butler <ob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> TLM103 is somewhat like the U87 but a bit "smaller" sounding. We have
> sold a ton of them: not one buyer has been unhappy. If you are
> interested, we can sell you one at a very good price.
>
> Nothing else that looks like a Neumann sounds much like a Neumann,
> especially the offerings from Microtech Gefell. The latter is odd,
since
> it was the East German factory of Neumann before the Iron Curtain.
Spoken like a true salesman.
Mark Plancke
>In article <20000629035936...@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
> stev...@aol.com (Steve607) wrote:
>> >Sorry, I just don't get it. What do you guys hear in an 87 doing
>vocals?
>
>Like anything it has it's place and although a 47 or a U95/99 is the
>first place I'd turn sometimes the 87 works perfectly.
>
>> I agree with you, I find that the U87 has kind of a "weird" and maybe
>even
>> "honky" midrange, and the TLM 103 hightens this honkiness. It
>definitely
>> sounds very bad on some vocalists, especially those of the male
>grunge vocal
>> sound (which seem to pile in my studio), It smoothes out the grungy
>character.
>> I think U87s sound much better on females.. they are great mics, but
>for vox
>> there are lots better.
I guess the
>moral to the story is that everyone needs to have one for situations
>like this and although the "vocal studio" guy and myself wouldn't have
>thought to do this Gregg knew better.
Errr, "this guy" wouldn't be Gregg Allman now would it?
Mark Plancke
I don't know the secret of success, but the secret
of failure is to try to please everybody. --Bill Cosby
SOUNDTECH RECORDING STUDIOS
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
http://SoundTechRecording.com
George Reiswig
on that demo CD where the chap is reading into various different mics for
comparison. But based on that, the only one of the "vintage" Neumanns that
I cared for was the U67, which seemed to sound good, but not great.
I must be missing something...
GR
Scott Dorsey wrote in message <8jfu0u$slr$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
>In article <20000629030326...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
>ManicJanik <manic...@aol.com> wrote:
>> klu...@netcom.com wrote:
>>
>><< ...The KMS105 sounds an awful lot like a U87 on-axis. The pattern is
>>clean and tight, though, unlike a U87, so a lot of the positioning tricks
>>that you're used to with the U87 won't work. >>
>><<SNIP>>
>>
>>Sorry, I just don't get it. What do you guys hear in an 87 doing vocals?
David 'db' Butler
The honky midrange of the older ones is useful: it is a toned-down
variant of an U67/47 in the better examples of the U87i, but they vary
appallingly, despite Neumann's claims of consistency.
the U87ai on the other hand, uses a KK67 derived capsule, an upgraded
power scheme and a preamp much like a Klaus Heyne upgrade. I disagree
staunchly that "older is better" here. I have owned literally 100s of
U87/U87i and you are lucky if 1 in 10 is really a vocal mic. (Of course,
I am a jaded old s**t who grew up on U47, U67, Tele, ELAM etc..) I
consider them
The U87ai shocked me and continues to. The quietest most consistent mic
we have sold and we sell dozens...
Hot, quiet and consistent.
Try one AND DO NOT USE Neve 1073/1272 based preamps: they add to the
honkiness, folks!
db
my 3¢
In article <20000629030326...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
manic...@aol.com (ManicJanik) wrote:
> klu...@netcom.com wrote:
>
> << ...The KMS105 sounds an awful lot like a U87 on-axis. The pattern is
> clean and tight, though, unlike a U87, so a lot of the positioning tricks
> that you're used to with the U87 won't work. >>
> <<SNIP>>
>
> Sorry, I just don't get it. What do you guys hear in an 87 doing vocals?
> Whenever I've used 87's for vox, they have always sounded very honky and
> nasal-y. I am a pro, not a hobbiest. I've used some really great 49's,
> 47's,
> C-800's, C-12's, ELAM 251's, etc... to do vocals with some really great
> vocalists. I've TRIED the 87, but I would really like to understand what
> the
> attraction is.
>
> No sarcasm here. I would really like to hear your explanations/opinions.
> Is it
> possible that the ones I had available to me were ALL in bad condition?
> Could I
> have been using the "newer" versions which supposedly don't sound as
> good?
> Please enlighten me, cuz I might be interested in renting one or picking
> one up
> the next time I do a vocal session if I knew what you "87 lovers" knew
>
> JJ NYC
>
>
>
>
>
--
David 'db' Butler
that.
I have watched a lot of banter on "old vs. new U87s" and felt it was
time to give a IMHO (NOT!!) take on this, should burn for a week or so!
I have engineered/produced and teched for 31 years, so this is 100%
experience based. Most of my client base seem to agree and the majority
of them are credited producers and engineers or major studio owners.
I won't pretend they all agree, but most of the time, the remarks are
close to mine...
The honky midrange of the older U87s is useful: it is a toned-down
variant of an U67/47 in the better examples of the U87i, but they vary
appallingly, despite Neumann's claims of consistency. I disagree
staunchly that "older is better" here. I have owned literally 100s of
U87/U87i and you are lucky if 1 in 10 is really a vocal mic. (Of course,
I am a jaded old s**t who grew up on U47, U67, Tele, ELAM etc..) I
consider half of them great utility mics: guitar amps, drums (although I
hate condensors on close mic'd drums: leakage is awful sounding.
the remaining 25% or so are nice instrument mics, they just don't float
my boat on vocals except maybe backgrounds on omni. Mind you, your
experience WILL VARY depending on the room and singers...
the U87ai on the other hand, uses a KK67 derived capsule, an upgraded
power scheme and a preamp much like a Klaus Heyne upgrade.
The U87ai shocked me and continues to. The quietest most consistent mic
we have sold and we sell dozens...
Hot, quiet and consistent. Haven't had a return or a complaint from a
buyer. Most of them rave and thank me.
We also sell TONS of TLM103 to folks who cannot afford a U87. 100%
satisfaction. It ain't a U87, but it has enough "real Neumann character"
and a taste of 87 flavor. We feel (and our clients and RAP's own Scott
Dorsey agree) it might be the Best Buy under $1,000 today.
Try one AND DO NOT USE Neve 1073/1272 based preamps for your comparison:
they add to the honkiness, folks! Use something more neutral, even if
Neve vintage is your fave. I, for one, really dislike older Neves on
MOST vocals, I'd rather an API or Jensen for crunch and warmth or
Millenia/Pendulum etc for neutral. Shoot me!
db
my 3¢
PS: To the original poster; try a U87ai (I can arrange via Credit Card)
and call me in the morning. In fact, for this week only (June 30-July 7)
, anyone who orders a U87i or a TLM103 from us gets a no-bs 100% return
privilege , you are only responsible for freight. Mention this ad to get.
Dave Martin
<digit...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8jfvii$icb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
comparable Berlin Neumann mic, and my UM-57's don't sound at all like any of
the large diaphragm tube Neumann's from Berlin.
--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc.
Nashville, TN
duskb
vocals?
>Whenever I've used 87's for vox, they have always sounded very
honky and
>nasal-y. I am a pro, not a hobbiest. I've used some really great
49's, 47's,
>C-800's, C-12's, ELAM 251's, etc... to do vocals with some
really great
>vocalists. I've TRIED the 87, but I would really like to
understand what the
>attraction is.
uh pricing comes to mind...about several thousand dollars
dusk
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
David 'db' Butler
Look further down the thread and also for "U87i vs U87ai".
The first answer was a fast and honest one. The second one gets more out
there based onusing them for 30 years. It should ignite some fun....
db
PS: 'scuse me if being in business offends! Yep, I am a salesman, a
mixer, producer, ex-studio owner, currently consultant and acoustician.
Guilty on all charges!
In article <8jfvii$icb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, digit...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Nothing else that looks like a Neumann sounds much like a Neumann,
> > especially the offerings from Microtech Gefell. The latter is odd,
> since
> > it was the East German factory of Neumann before the Iron Curtain.
>
> Spoken like a true salesman.
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy
--
David 'db' Butler
indistinguishable form old ones and work fine as replacements.
Go figure.
Makes me believe Klaus Heyne when he says the following:
"the tubes have less to do with it than you think, David. Most of the
sound is from the capsule, followed by the grille shape, then the output
transformer. The tube is dead last"
(I agree with the exception of the VF/EF/UF14 which have an ASTONISHING
coloration, especially when you consider the tube itself should be flat
to low UHF!)
db
In article <sln939a...@corp.supernews.com>, "Dave Martin"
<dave....@nashville.com> wrote:
> <digit...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8jfvii$icb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <ob1db-24D5CC....@news.internetconnect.net>,
> > David 'db' Butler <ob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Nothing else that looks like a Neumann sounds much like a Neumann,
> > > especially the offerings from Microtech Gefell. The latter is odd,
> > since
> > > it was the East German factory of Neumann before the Iron Curtain.
> >
> > Spoken like a true salesman.
> >
> Yeah, but it seems to be true; none of my three M-582's don't sound like
> any
> comparable Berlin Neumann mic, and my UM-57's don't sound at all like any
> of
> the large diaphragm tube Neumann's from Berlin.
>
>
> --
> Dave Martin
> DMA, Inc.
> Nashville, TN
>
>
--
guido
gu...@guidotoons.com
Dave Martin
"guido" <jwels...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000629185300...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
You're right - let's talk about barbecue, coffee and pizza.
Jay Kahrs
>attraction is.
I've used them a few times on drums. Usually floor toms or the outside of a
kick. Sometimes overheads. I like the mic, but I don't know what I like them
on. Sometimes they work for me on vocals.
---
-Jay Kahrs
BrownSound Studios
Morris Plains, NJ
http://members.tripod.com/~BrownSoundStudios
Tony Merrill
I must insist that if you are going to requote comments I have made, that you do it accurately and in context, or not at all.
M7's ARE the original U47 capsule, thus it is impossible for them to sound like anything but the originals.
The "glue"capsules currently being produced in Gefell are Very Much LIKE the M7 and are virtually indistinguishable to the UNTRAINED EYE! In
fact, they do have a difference in their manufacture which does alter the sound characteristic from that of the true M7. Yes, they will work
as a physical "drop-in" replacement for the M7, but don't expect them to sound exactly the same. Similar, yes; Same, No.
That said, the microphones Mr. Martin refers to, the 582 and UM57, use a preamplifier design which is tremendously unlike anything produced
by Neumann Berlin in design philosophy and is a large part of the reason these mics sound the way they do. We have rebuilt a number of
these type of microphones with a much-improved circuit.
Regarding the tube's effect on the sound of the microphone:
We spend a considerable amount of time, effort and expense selecting tubes for the mics we modify here. There is absolutely no question
that a great microphone can be Seriously compromised by even a mediocre tube.
Also, regarding U87A's and K67s:
The capsules for the U87A and the U67 are one and the same. The U87a capsule is not "K67 derived."
Tony Merrill
Stephen Paul Audio Inc.
ManicJanik
dusk >>
Oops, sorry! Yeah, I sometimes forget that some of you out there are working in
smaller studios or smaller markets. Believe me, having just installed a
Protools rig and patchbay wiring in my home studio, I too understand the
economics of $1000. Sometimes that $1000 saved sounds much better than the
$5000 I might have spent!!!!
JJNYC
Fletcher
Then you haven't spent enough time here...thre have been far dumber
threads...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
Fuzzbot
>
> Errr, "this guy" wouldn't be Gregg Allman now would it?
Ehh! Yeah.
My point is some people (clients) want certain things. Like a 57 on a
snare. Like dippity do for new wave hair. <g>
--
Kevin F. Rose
Elevated Basement Studio
"Forever is my witness in the end"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David 'db' Butler
A: the clarifications (I think you were in more of a hurry when we spoke
or I snoozed...) re the East and West M7s. Your comments at the time
made it sound as though they were closer...
B: The info on the K67s. Why does Neumann continue to pretend it is the
older U87i capsule. Am I nuts or isn't the clearance different to allow
the higher voltage? What other differences are there?
And I of course apologize if I misquoted you in any way!
I think you misread my comment on the effest the tube has. I didn't say
it was not important: I said it seemed the cpasule, grille and
transformer have more effect in most cases. My experience is pretty much
that: is yours different?
Would you care to comment more on tube selection?
Thanks again, as always for your sharing of wisdom and experience!
db
In article <395C0799...@primenet.com>, Tony Merrill
<tmer...@primenet.com> wrote:
--
Mike Rivers
Funny how industry standard products that have been highly regarded
for a quarter of a century can get trashed so quickly by the "experts"
here. Damn shame. I don't have time to look for "better" mics than
my U-87's. I just work with them and I'm glad I have them. When I
was recording more, it made me feel like I was a real studio.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
JimKollens
trying all the local food on the way. Then came Mc Donalds and Burger King.
For some reason, a lot of people don't really care about good home cooking. I
guess cheapest is really best for most folks. I've had people tell me that
they can't tell the difference between professional recordings and their home
recordings using drum machines and artificial everything. How can you argue
with: "I can't tell the difference."?
Mike Rivers comments: << Funny how industry standard products that have been
david
David 'db' Butler <ob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The honky midrange of the older U87s is useful: it is a toned-down
> variant of an U67/47 in the better examples of the U87i, but they vary
> appallingly, despite Neumann's claims of consistency. I disagree
> staunchly that "older is better" here.
Honky midrange??? I got a couple early 80's 87's (one of them from
good ol' PRS) and I've always loved 'em. I might be a honky, but these
2 mics sure ain't.
I gotta say David, I don't know what you're talking about. I'd like to
play you some choral/organ stuff I recorded in a cathedral using just
these two 87's and a GML pre.
Why even Phil Greene likes one of them quite a bit ;>
Here's a snip from an interesting rant/post Stephen Paul made a few
months back on the older 87 vs the current incarnation:
> And I completely
> understand Neumann's desire to find a better (read cheaper) way to make
> something
> similar to the original capsule without going as far as AKG did with
> their replacement
> for the CK 12. If the response were the same I would keep my mouth
> shut. But it is
> not.
>
> The continual program of elimination of important handmade elements to
> this capsule
> and the attendant deterioration of its tolerances over the past three
> or four years,
> has resulted in a U-87 which does not resemble the original curve.
> That is what I
> object to. The original U-87s for more than 25 years had a response
> above 1 kHz,
> resembling the following: a rise of about 2 dB at 5 kHz, dipping down
> afterwards, and
> then rising again to about +1 dB at 10kHz, -3 dB at 15kHz, and down 9
> to 12 dB at
> 20kHz. (Just for comparison, our three micron modification is +4 dB at
> 12kHz, flat at
> 18kHz, and within 2 dB at 20kHz.) The current capsule, which has
> eliminated several
> extremely important parts because of the cost of the precision tooling
> necessary to
> make them the way Neumann had been making them, and simply changing the
> design of
> other parts, has resulted in a capsule which is currently dead flat to
> 10kHz, -5 dB at
> 10kHz!!!, and absolutely non-existent at 20 kHz. You are no longer
> getting a classic
> U-87 anymore. Those are the cold hard facts. End of discussion.
David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island
Cass...@Macconnect.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
ManicJanik
<<Years ago, traveling across the country, I remember that part of the fun was
trying all the local food on the way. Then came Mc Donalds and Burger King.
For some reason, a lot of people don't really care about good home cooking >>
Consistency is the name of the game, I guess. I eat fast food (Mickey D's
and/or Burger King, etc...) about once every few months. It's very predictable.
It tastes good (for what it is) and is fairly fresh, prepared that day (maybe,
right in front of your eyes, if your lucky!!!)
I posted on the U87 thread, wondering what people see in them. I guess I could
say the same for trying local foods. I love good food. I live in NYC and have
travelled around the planet a bit. When you know where to get good food and
what to order-man, you can't do any better. But when you're a stranger in a
strange land, lookout!!!! Montezuma's Revenge for you!!!!
My 87 experiences (probably common amongst us), as well as experiences with any
vintage gear (haven't come accross any new 87Ai's), have been INCONSISTENCY. I
hate the fact that a damn LA2A is a bit too pricy to own (purchase price,have
it gone over, tech'd out, and refurbished) because EVERY FUCKING STUDIO I WORK
AT has at least 2 in every room. How well it's gonna work is always up in the
air. A VERY few are well maintained and are worth their weight in gold, the
rest are.... whatever you deem them. Why studios have such a hard time keeping
their shit in good order is beyond me.
When I've got a half-hour to put up a rough mix and get a vocal setup ready,
I'd love to "try" an 87, thru the studio's (or rental company's)1081, thru
their LA-2A, but in reality, I'll probably rent a C-800G (fairly new) put it
thru my Avalon 737sp (also fairly new) and be a very happy camper, as well as
keep the clientel happy (very happy). The sound is good, and the gear is
RELIABLE
The times when I do have a few hours to setup and test/checkout other
mics/pres/compressors, I am ususally SADLY disapointed. Turns out that the mic
that the studio talked up, the "special U-47" that "Elliot Scheiner" (sorry
Elliot) always requests seemingly sounds like shit!!! (maybe my assistant got
the serial #'s confused? or maybe Elliot pays him to keep that mic hidden until
he comes around again???)
That's a slightly exagerated example, but you get the idea. I know there's a
VERY small percentage of "vintage" gear that actually works the way it's
supposed too. That was somewhat illustrated here, in this newsgroup, a few
weeks ago in threads about the high price of "vintage" mics and such.
That was the underlying Jist of my post, since my experience with 87's has been
limited to those which sounded honky and/or generally bad to me, I just
wondered what "87 people" heard in them.
JJ NYC
<A HREF="mailto:mri...@d-and-d.com ">mri...@d-and-d.com </A> (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
<<Funny how industry standard products that have been highly regarded
for a quarter of a century can get trashed so quickly by the "experts" here.>>
DDT, the chemical insecticide, was "highly regarded by scientists and
professional exterminators to be completely safe to humans and the environment"
for about 40 years before it was banned by Congress in 1978 (?)
High regard for a product by other "experts" as "industry standard" doesn't
mean much when you put a mic up and YOUR name and reputation are at stake
during the course of that session. Not to flame you, Mr. Rivers, we all do
share quite a few common experiences, but we also each have quite different
experiences with the "same" gear. By "same" I mean brand name and model number.
After that, we're all on our own, each and every one of us. Don't you agree??
Fletcher
> How well it's gonna work is always up in the
> air. A VERY few are well maintained and are worth their weight in gold, the
> rest are.... whatever you deem them. Why studios have such a hard time keeping
> their shit in good order is beyond me.
That's a multi-faceted response...see, the clients 'nickel and dime' the
studios, playing one against the other to grind them down to their
bottom rate. Rather than really pricing the facility where it should be
priced, most studio managers fall into the 'negotiation' game. Rates
for recording studios haven't gone up since the early 80's [from what
I've seen]...but now instead of needing that $150,000 Neve desk to be
competative, the need a $750,000 SSL desk...but the 'rate' stays the
same.
Used to be you could find two/three/four guys on the "day" tech staff,
and like two on the "night" tech staff...and that was just to keep up
with 'day to day' stuff. Now you're lucky to find one chief with two
assistant techs and a night guy at all. Why? Because rents have gone
up, staff has gone up, capital expenditures are through the roof...but
the rate has come down. Somethings got to give...it's usually 'tech
support'.
Couple that with the 'multi-media' explosion...the "post" houses are
screaming [and charging very nicely for their services]...so guess where
the lions share of the good techs are? That's right. Think about
it...at 5-6pm most "post" houses have tumbleweeds blowing down the
halls...
So...faced with leaving the 'glamorous' life of record porduction to
make more money and work rational hours at a post house...what would you
choose? Right...and so do most of the good techs. So, you now have
[for the most part...I can think of half a dozen exceptions without
thinking hard] "B" level techs, with half a staff, underpaid, trying to
keep the facility 'up and running'...refurbing that 'LA-2A' isn't quite
as high on the priority list as changing the NS-10 woofers because
they're soft...which also isn't on the 'list of shit to do'...it's more
like "call me if it's broken, I have a dozen other broken things that
require my attention first".
'Need'...the 'LA-2A' may need to be refurbed, but it passes signal, and
95% of the guys that plug it in won't know the difference anyway, why?
Because all they've heard for their career are broken LA-2A's that's
why. "It passes signal, and nobody's yelling at me"...that's enough to
keep it off the 'list of shit to do' for damn near every tech I know
working in a 'music only' facility.
ScotFraser
In article <slnm29l...@corp.supernews.com>, "Dave wrote:
<<You're right - let's talk about barbecue, coffee and pizza.
>>
All right.
(1) Barbeque; not me, I'm a vegetarian,
(2) Coffee; I recently had some Starbucks, to see what the fuss is all about.
It tasted like it had been on a burner all day. Over-roasted, not happening.
(3) Current fave pizza is Ben's in the village, somewhere around Prince St. I'm
over the Famous Original Ray's thing, they've started making some lame slices.
There is no really good pizza in L.A.
(4) There aren't any decent U87 copies. It either sounds like an 87 or it's
something else.
Scott Fraser
Dave Martin
news:20000701153704...@nso-fx.aol.com...
>
> In article <slnm29l...@corp.supernews.com>, "Dave wrote:
>
> <<You're right - let's talk about barbecue, coffee and pizza.
> >>
>
> All right.
> (1) Barbeque; not me, I'm a vegetarian,
You have my sympathy.
> (2) Coffee; I recently had some Starbucks, to see what the fuss is all
about.
> It tasted like it had been on a burner all day. Over-roasted, not
happening.
Yep. Buy whole beans and grind your own. Columbian for everyday drinking,
Ethiopian or Kenyan in the morning, and choose the dessert coffe based on
the desert. And for goodness sakes, if it's been on the burner for 30
minutes, throw it out and make a new pot!
> (3) Current fave pizza is Ben's in the village, somewhere around Prince
St. I'm
> over the Famous Original Ray's thing, they've started making some lame
slices.
> There is no really good pizza in L.A.
Rays didn't knock me out when I was in Manhattan; there's a decent place
here (run by New Yorkers), but it's 45 minutes away. I make it htere about
twoce a year.
> (4) There aren't any decent U87 copies. It either sounds like an 87 or
it's
> something else.
>
Sure, but there are also 87's that don't sound like 87's. (and the studios
won't pay Stephen Paul to fix them...)
ManicJanik
<< the clients 'nickel and dime' the
studios, playing one against the other to grind them down to their
bottom rate. Rather than really pricing the facility where it should be
priced, most studio managers fall into the 'negotiation' game >>
<SNIP>
<< Somethings got to give...it's usually 'tech
support'. >>
Thanks for reminding me. A long time ago, I did work in the office of a couple
different studios. The ways and means of the business are something I am aware
of, but I tend to forget (convieniently) while wearing the "engineers" hat.
It's a shame, but you've nailed it on the head.
JJNYC
Mike Rivers
> Years ago, traveling across the country, I remember that part of the fun was
> trying all the local food on the way. Then came Mc Donalds and Burger King.
> For some reason, a lot of people don't really care about good home cooking. I
> guess cheapest is really best for most folks. I've had people tell me that
> they can't tell the difference between professional recordings and their home
> recordings using drum machines and artificial everything. How can you argue
> with: "I can't tell the difference."?
> Mike Rivers comments: << Funny how industry standard products that have been
> highly regarded
> for a quarter of a century can get trashed so quickly by the "experts"
> here.
I hope you didn't take my comment to mean either "I can't tell the
difference" or "The U87 is the McDonalds of microphones". I can
certainly tell the difference between mics on an individual singer,
but I rarely find that a U87 gives me an unworkable sound. If it just
doesn't sound right, I'll try another, but if it's OK, the singer
feels good about singing into a well respected mic, I know I can use
the recording, and we move on to something else. I don't work with
singers who worry about whether there might be a better mic somewhere.
And, when I can get a U87 with fries and a medium coke for $1.97, I'll
invite all my friends over for fries and cokes.
Stephen Paul
>
>> Thanks for :
>>
>> A: the clarifications (I think you were in more of a hurry when we spoke
>> or I snoozed...) re the East and West M7s. Your comments at the time
>> made it sound as though they were closer...
>
>
> His comments are always accurate... in fact often more so than my own, as I have so many fields to cover at the moment. The idea that he
> would not know an M7 capsule from the other subjects discussed is a totally ridiculous and disrespectful comment...
>
> When you have contributed what HE has to the world of microphones perhaps you might be qualified to make such an onerous and patently self
> seving and face saving remark... in the meantime I suggest a public apology for your own lack of accuracy, and perhaps listening more
> closely when an authority of his class tells you something.
>
>> B: The info on the K67s. Why does Neumann continue to pretend it is the
>> older U87i capsule. Am I nuts or isn't the clearance different to allow
>> the higher voltage? What other differences are there?
>
> again? Is that something else that 'went up in smoke' because nobody here thought it imporatnt enough to repost and be certain it was
> seen?) Had you read that info you might be speaking more from a place of knowledge.
>
> I don't know where you get your info or qualifications to question Tony, Dave, but my advice would be to be very careful before you
> consider any remark he makes inaccurate. When you too have a quarter million dollar lab similar to my own, dedicated solely to advancing
> the state-of-the-art in professional condenser mikes, and have spent the the better part of twelve years in my company or the 20+ that I
> myself have working on all conceiveable makes and models of studio mikes, and service our level of clientele successfully, (not to mention
> professionally record and engineer/produce with them for 35+ years) feel free to question the likes of a careful, kind hearted and
> methodical artisan like Tony without a problem from me.
>
> =Tolerance= differences as I have noted, and =clearance= are two different things. If you open your mouth without thinking again in
> criticism of Tony, or questioning him without being attentive, and requoting him inaccurately, and even =toying= with the notion that your
> understanding exceeds his, or that the misinformation came from him, this pipeline will shut down toward you. I do not appreciate the
> denigration of his vast knowledge and skills in a public forum...
>
> Tony is the most careful and diligent artist besides myself in this field, and when he talks, -listen-... what you might learn from him
> might save you considerable problems one day when someone who really knows takes these kinds of sloppy remarks on. Such as myself. We
> are not in the habit of speaking off the tops of our heads without knowing =exactly= what we are saying. Find another lab in the world
> with over =8000= anechoic shoots and measurement specs with tools you would not even dream of to operate at a fraction of light wavelength
> accuracy, and misquote them if you like, but not Tony.
>
>> And I of course apologize if I misquoted you in any way!
>
>
>> I think you misread my comment on the effest the tube has. I didn't say
>> it was not important: I said it seemed the cpasule, grille and
>> transformer have more effect in most cases. My experience is pretty much
>> that: is yours different?
>
> implied that based on something Tony told you, Klaus's remarks that the tube is =dead last= (I believe were your exact words, I noticed
> you did NOT requote your own erroneous contribution to this thread, just Tony's) is correct in our opinion is nonsense. Period.
>
>> Would you care to comment more on tube selection?
>
> concern for a midnight oil burner on behalf of this industry like Tony, being even remotely construed as the source of inattentive remarks
> rather than those like yourself not listening clearly, is made in this forum publicly.
>
> We have given freely of our time, resources and efforts to -thousands- over the years (including yourself) with no recompense, OR sales
> pitch constantly droning in the ear... unlike some here, and I suggest that those concerned about losing yet -another- valuable resource
> of information which is accurate or not stated, or immediately corrected if any inaccuracy is discovered, speak up.
>
> My post toward the guy who answered me the other day with
>
> >Christ. It's just a friggin' newgroup... maybe a vacation.
>
> Seems to be absent... If none of you saw it, please let me know, I'll be happy to repost that and clear this turgid air once and for all.
>
> Some caring and intelligent soul by the name 'Synthdev"... I suggest you confer with him before I advise Tony too to not waste his time
> here... You ALL know I have a very well developed sense of humor normally, and don't let things get to me anymore... but these kinds of
> posts, are rapidly convincing me that we are wasting our time here. If there are as many lurkers out there as there are supposed to be,
> who wish -some- form of Stephen Paul Audio's presence on this group to continue to be present, now is the time to make yourselves heard.
>
> All I can say is that if you wish to avail yourselves of Tony's gifts and talent and work in the future, you should be a lot more careful
> than some here have been with me.
>
> I say that I am happy that my presence here is a non-event these days apparently, and I mean that... I am no god... but though I have been
> assured otherwise by some, I see no evidence that it has not crossed the line into being taken for granted, and when that happens, I
> definitely have better things to do.
>
> In which case feel free to visit the SPA site, and get your info there without these self-styled 'gurus' (a term which, though applied to
> me by others I =deplore=...) lowering the S/N to the point where NO top pros will come near this place with the proverbial ten-foot pole.
> This is your group... you want to wander in darkness in this area that's up to you... (and judging by some if the absolutley imbecilic and
> uninformed posts about mikes I have seen up here it's pretty dark...) Many's the time I stopped myself from beginning a thread to
> illuminate some passle of dumb remarks with the thought "ah crap, don't waste your time here... these people are not listening."
>
> You should =honor= as I said in the missing post, those who have some =real= knowledge who take the time, such as Fletcher (God knows how
> he does it) and Harvey among a very few others, and as I said, that even includes Karl Winkler when he isn't proselytizing, though he
> can't help that, it's part of his job... but at least he -tries- without always dinning some AD in your eye!
>
>> Thanks again, as always for your sharing of wisdom and experience!
>>
>> db
>>
>
> posts/articles in the past here, with no different treatment than if I were publishing or, for that matter being paid to do it?) I doubt
> it seriously, and the only thing I have ever asked in return is a bit of respect. NOT worship or some holy BS... just enough so that I
> don't have to post this kind of garbage to defend one of the brightest guiding lights you have in this industry, Tony Merrill, a
> -tireless- worker, and a friend to many of you... and not a word to this post in his defence but mine.
>
> This post should have been under 50 cbr. water-cooled 100 R/M fire the -second- this appeared here... and you guys wonder why I see
> apathy... wow.
>
> Please.
>
> SP
And this is the year 2000.... may I suggest that those of you incapable or unwilling to read HTML get a browser? They're free. This is the
21st century. Or perhaps I'm missing something here... And -please- don't tell me what Scott Dorsey says. That's fine. This is what
Stephen Paul suggests. You are on the net aren't you? They come to my site from Fiji, New Delhi, Phillipines, and I have never gotten a
complaint but from those living in the richest and most technologically advanced country in the world. Try it. You might like it, and as I
say, it don't cost nothin'.
--
Links:
<a href="http://www.mp3.com/StephenPaul"</a>The Music Site
<a href="http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/34/stephen_pauls_fave_artists.html"</a>The Station
<a href="http://www.spaudio.com"</a>Stephen Paul Audio/Built On Dreams Site
"If you blaze a trail and nobody follows it-
You're not a Pioneer, you're an Eccentric!"
-SP
David 'db' Butler
I said I REALLY like 1 of 10 U87s on voice, I just wouldn't use the
other 9 for that purpose..
And U87i's ARE"a bit honky" !! You might call it "that nice little
midrange push" but on the wrong vocal?
HONK HONK!
And ole' SPA ain't talking the same part: this is that 800Hz-1.5 kHz
stuff, he talks about 5K and up...
So, have you A-B'd one with a U87ai?
db
In article <010720000128185325%ih...@spamo.com>, david
<ih...@spamo.com> wrote:
> In article <ob1db-645489....@news.internetconnect.net>,
> David 'db' Butler <ob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > The honky midrange of the older U87s is useful: it is a toned-down
> > variant of an U67/47 in the better examples of the U87i, but they vary
> > appallingly, despite Neumann's claims of consistency. I disagree
> > staunchly that "older is better" here.
>
>
> Honky midrange??? I got a couple early 80's 87's (one of them from
> good ol' PRS) and I've always loved 'em. I might be a honky, but these
> 2 mics sure ain't.
>
snip
Bob Olhsson
<sp...@spaudio.com> wrote:
>Or perhaps I'm missing something here...
Yes you are, it's called a newsreader application.
It's about a thousand times as fast as HTML and has the ability to
filter messeges and people so you can easily find the topics and
writers of interest while ignoring topics and writers that are not of
interest.
In rec.audio.opinion, my newsreader kills more than half the posts
every time I take a look. Without the newsreader I wouldn't ever
bother.
--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery Recording Project Design and Consulting
Box 555, Novato CA 94948 Tracking, Mixing and Mastering
415.457.2620 FAX 415.456.1496 Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
38 years of making people sound better than they thought possible!
Harvey Gerst
I have dB kill-filed, so I don't get to read his post, but if anybody
doesn't know who Stephen Paul and Tony Merrill are, they're two of the
most knowledgable microphone people in the business, and I, for one,
am glad to have them both here. Every major label in the country
knows (and has used) Stephen's services at one time or another.
Stephen also happens to be a killer musician and a first rate
recording engineer. When you consider how physically difficult it is
for him to even post here, it makes his efforts and contributions here
even more amazing.
In the 80s, if you had a broken Neumann, you sent it to Gotham Audio
for repair, period, end of story.... except for one small Los Angeles
operation, that was authorized as the only independent repair center
for Neumann. One guess who that was.
Stephen Paul <sp...@spaudio.com> wrote:
>> Thank you. You did.
>> Tony Merrill <tmer...@primenet.com> wrote:
David 'db' Butler
A: nobody who uses the USENET for business in their right mind uses a
browser for email or newsreading. And HTML in a Newsgroup IS bad form.
Go to www.tucows.com and get a free newsreading client today. Then
either download Eudora or Outlook (I say Eudora). BROWSERS are made for
BROWSING. They suck as email or news clients. If you really want to be
in the year 2000, this is how to do it..
<G>
B: Take a Valium, smoke a joint or whatever and reread my post. I didn't
question, misquote or malign Tony or SPA in any way. Communication was
not complete. That takes two people if you study modern relations and
communication theory...
C: Relax and stop taking life so seriously and personally. The way you
react to every post up here lately sounds like you are building up to
pop a blood vessel, fer Christ's sake...
You are brilliant, I have admired you and used your work for years.
Maybe you forgot we used to talk before you were such a big cheese? I
have taught a few of your good clients. I tout your services, I send you
clients, I generally love reselling mics you've worked on.
And I have more tech credentials than most people up here: I don't need
to HONOR none of 'em! (What an idea!!) I share my knowledge widely and
freely. Ask Harvey or Phil Greene or spend 10 minutes on Deja Vu looking
for my ID and screening off the "FS" bits if you really have missed that
many.
You are a GURU of great mics. I've been a GURU of audio maintainence,
consoles and analog tape bits for 31 years.
Tough luck if I throw a plug in here and there! Someone has to pay the
bills. We aren't all living legends like you. <G>
Hope your health gets better and you start chilling out!
We need your input and Tony's.
db
In article <395E70F6...@spaudio.com>, Stephen Paul
<sp...@spaudio.com> wrote:
> > David 'db' Butler wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for :
> >>
> >> A: the clarifications (I think you were in more of a hurry when we
> >> spoke
> >> or I snoozed...) re the East and West M7s. Your comments at the time
> >> made it sound as though they were closer...
> >
> > Tony is NEVER in a hurry.
snippola
> > Please.
> >
> > SP
>
> And this is the year 2000.... may I suggest that those of you incapable
> or unwilling to read HTML get a browser? They're free. This is the
> 21st century. Or perhaps I'm missing something here... And -please-
> don't tell me what Scott Dorsey says. That's fine. This is what
> Stephen Paul suggests. You are on the net aren't you? They come to my
> site from Fiji, New Delhi, Phillipines, and I have never gotten a
> complaint but from those living in the richest and most technologically
> advanced country in the world. Try it. You might like it, and as I
> say, it don't cost nothin'.
>
--
Luke Kaven
Dave Martin <dave....@nashville.com> wrote in message
news:slskvdi...@corp.supernews.com...
> "ScotFraser" <scotf...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000701153704...@nso-fx.aol.com...
> >
> > In article <slnm29l...@corp.supernews.com>, "Dave wrote:
> > (3) Current fave pizza is Ben's in the village, somewhere around Prince
> St. I'm
> > over the Famous Original Ray's thing, they've started making some lame
> slices.
> > There is no really good pizza in L.A.
>
> Rays didn't knock me out when I was in Manhattan; there's a decent place
> here (run by New Yorkers), but it's 45 minutes away. I make it htere about
> twoce a year.
While we're on the subject of U87s, you've got to like the pizza from the
really hot wood ovens to be found at John's Pizza (Bleecker St btwn 6th &
7th) or at Arturo's on Houston St (either at Macdougal or Thompson). One
notch down but ready-to-eat is Joe's Pizza at the corner of Bleecker and
Carmine St. Arturo's has the additional benefit of having Harry Whitaker on
piano Sun, Mon, Tues. [Someone among you out there must know Harry.] Get
there early, because people line up for this stuff. All taste great,
although Stephen Paul could probably make a 3 micron crust for them that
would taste better.
Luke
Dave Martin
"Luke Kaven" <ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> wrote in message
news:8jmlip$spj$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu...
>
> While we're on the subject of U87s, you've got to like the pizza from the
> really hot wood ovens to be found at John's Pizza (Bleecker St btwn 6th &
> 7th) or at Arturo's on Houston St (either at Macdougal or Thompson). One
> notch down but ready-to-eat is Joe's Pizza at the corner of Bleecker and
> Carmine St. Arturo's has the additional benefit of having Harry Whitaker
on
> piano Sun, Mon, Tues. [Someone among you out there must know Harry.] Get
> there early, because people line up for this stuff. All taste great,
> although Stephen Paul could probably make a 3 micron crust for them that
> would taste better.
>
And I won't be back to NYC until the next AES show (in 2001). I don't
suppose you'd make a note to re-post this around Sep.15th, 2001?
Jay Kahrs
>(2) Coffee; I recently had some Starbucks, to see what the fuss is all about.
>It tasted like it had been on a burner all day. Over-roasted, not happening.
I'm with you on that. I went into a Starbucks for the first time about a year
ago and asked them for a regular light with 1 sugar. The girl behind the
counter looked at me like I had three eyes and two heads. Give me Dunkin'
Donuts anytime.
>(3) Current fave pizza is Ben's in the village, somewhere around Prince St.
>I'm over the Famous Original Ray's thing, they've started making some lame
>slices.
>There is no really good pizza in L.A.
I don't into NY for pizza too much, but I ate at Rays about a month ago and it
was pretty good pizza. Maybe you hit them on an off day.
The worst pizza I've had in NY was on the corner of 30th and (9th?? I forget).
It's just up the street on the same side as 30th Street Guitars, which is the
best guitar shop in the NY Metro area.
ScotFraser
In article <20000702142607...@ng-ce1.aol.com>, brown...@aol.com
wrote:
<<I don't into NY for pizza too much, but I ate at Rays about a month ago and
it
was pretty good pizza. Maybe you hit them on an off day.>>
I've been hitting them on lots of days for lots of years, so either my tastes
are changing or they've let the quality slide a bit. And of course each
location is a little different. It's still better than the average, but I've
found a few I'm liking more than Ray's these days.
<<The worst pizza I've had in NY was on the corner of 30th and (9th?? I
forget).
It's just up the street on the same side as 30th Street Guitars, which is the
best guitar shop in the NY Metro area. >>
That's the guitar shop that's just across the street from Rogue? Great shop
full of great instruments, way too tempting, though. I've brought home too many
guitars from tours through NY.
Scott Fraser
Jay Kahrs
>full of great instruments, way too tempting, though. I've brought home too
>many guitars from tours through NY.
That's the one. It's nice be able to walk into a shop and talk to guys who
actually can hear a difference between a rosewood and a maple board. One of my
friends bought a Top Hat from them about 8 months ago and Matt was just way to
helpful to be a New Yorker. If anyone's interested the URL is
www.30thstreetguitars.com
---