Interesting Chinese mic site
Jeff Jasper
I gotta wonder if these guys are the originators of the "clones."
http://www.797audio.com/
Jeff Jasper
Results Video, El Paso
hank alrich
> What audacity--MD441, MD421, etc...I remember buying clones of
> the top of the line Wilson baseball glove over there complete with the
> Wilson logo and "made in the USA" marks for $11.00 each (they're $250-
> 300.00 here). I bought 6 and the kids love 'em! Microphones might be
> a different story though...
Years ago when the Chinese muckymucks in upper gov wanted classy
transport, the proles cloned Mercedes-Benz limos for 'em.
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
tone...@my-deja.com
Customs would be so-oooo interested if these thangs ever hit our
shores, no? Highly illegal is my guess, but it might be worth the trip
over there to have a look. The "The Tube" clone looks especially
interesting, right down to the logo. I just tried emailing them--no
dice. What audacity--MD441, MD421, etc...I remember buying clones of
the top of the line Wilson baseball glove over there complete with the
Wilson logo and "made in the USA" marks for $11.00 each (they're $250-
300.00 here). I bought 6 and the kids love 'em! Microphones might be
a different story though...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
RSiegel920
>dice.
I did too and got the following response:
Dear Sir.
Thank you for your interesting in our products.
We are sorry that we do not have distributor in U.S now.
If you want to buy some of our microphones,
you can only buy them from our company directly.
Here is the price of some of our microphones.(FOB Beijing, USD).
CR998 $300.00 include all standard accessories .
CR3000 $80.00 include all standard accessories .
CR414 $130.00 include all standard accessories .
CR100 $220.00 include all standard accessories .
CR616 $100.00 Include shock mount .
CR1-78 $120.00 include windscreen .
CR722 $100.00 include windscreen and LJ-12A .
CR628 $80.00 include LJ-12A .
CR1-4 $80.00 include LJ-12.
CR523 $ 80.00 include LJ-12B .
Aluminum carrying case: 30.00USD
Velly Intellesting!
craig downing
Here is the response I received. Anyone ever use these?
Dear Sir.
Thank you for your interesting in our products.
Here is the price of some of our microphones.(FOB Beijing, USD).
CR998 $300.00 include all standard accessories .
CR3000 $80.00 include all standard accessories .
CR414 $130.00 include all standard accessories .
CR100 $220.00 include all standard accessories .
CR616 $100.00 Include shock mount .
CR1-78 $120.00 include windscreen .
CR722 $100.00 include windscreen and LJ-12A .
CR628 $80.00 include LJ-12A .
CR1-4 $80.00 include LJ-12.
CR523 $ 80.00 include LJ-12B .
Aluminum carrying case: 30.00USD
If you have any question, please ask me without hesitation.
Best Regards
Ma Jiulong/chief engineer of 797 audio.
http://www.797audio.com
RSiegel920
>shores, no? Highly illegal is my guess, but it might be worth the trip
>over there to have a look.
The "history section" of their web site indicates that the company was set up
in 1956 by the Germans- seriously doubt the West variety. If so, could the East
German group of Neumann have granted licenses to build these lil puppies????
Maybe not as illegal as they look after all. But then again there are what look
to be the AKG knock-offs. Nothing mentioned about Vienna in their "History" :)
RSiegel920
http://www.globalsources.com/MAGAZINE/EC/9911/MPHONE01.HTM
according to this, Beijing 797 Audio sells in the UK!
Jeremy C B Nicoll
> http://www.globalsources.com/MAGAZINE/EC/9911/MPHONE01.HTM
Odd then that they've never been reviewed by hobby or pro magazines,
never been seen in mag price lists etc etc.
If the company is legit it seems odd that nearly everything looks like
rebadged Neumann or AKG; I know that these days every company in the work
produces a few Neumann lookalikes, but somehow that's done in a more
tongue-in-cheek or up-front manner.
--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
David Josephson
>>Customs would be so-oooo interested if these thangs ever hit our
>>shores, no? Highly illegal is my guess, but it might be worth the trip
>>over there to have a look.
Not really. As long as it says "Made in China" on it, they really don't
care. I rather doubt that anyone could get Customs to enforce a trademark
dispute like they used to for the American importers of Neumann and Nikon.
>The "history section" of their web site indicates that the company was set up
>in 1956 by the Germans- seriously doubt the West variety. If so, could the East
>German group of Neumann have granted licenses to build these lil puppies????
>Maybe not as illegal as they look after all. But then again there are what look
>to be the AKG knock-offs. Nothing mentioned about Vienna in their "History" :)
Right. They had some training from what is now Microtech Gefell, courtesy
of the USSR's effort to get into and control all the relevant technologies
in China, but after 1960-61 when all this stopped, they went on to develop
their own designs. I have a pair of their first effort, the CR-1-1, (CR
are the initials for the pinyin phoneticization of the characters for
condenser microphone) which are omni-cardioid switchable, dual-diaphragm
mics somewhat like a cross between an 87 and a KM56. The capsule is unlike
any other design I've seen. Since the 1980's though they have been
pressured by a lot of western marketeers to make Neumann knockoffs, and,
well, to be rich is glorious.
797 is the 797 Factory of the Ministry of Electronics Industry, and is
located on the outskirts of Beijing. I first visited there in 1985, it's
an interesting place. They also make loudspeakers (columns and big reflex
bins) including Altec A7 copies, all the way down to clock radio speakers.
Some of the Chinese mics sold abroad come from there, but you have to make
the deal with them directly. The majority of the 87-ish clones come from
a factory in Shanghai due to the fact that there's an alumnus of the Shanghai
factory living in L. A. who actively promotes sales of their mics.
--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / da...@josephson.com
Curtis W. Moeckel
David Josephson <dav...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:88708i$brp$1...@samba.rahul.net...
ovid
>
> Re: Mics
> Date:
> Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:32:58 +0800
> From:
> "MA JIULONG" <snsa...@public3.bta.net.cn>
> Organization:
> 797audio co.,ltd
> To:
> "ovid" <ov...@synaesthesia.cjb.net>
> References:
> 1 , 2 , 3
>
>
>
>
> No, we are not OEM for Sennheiser or AKG.
> But I think that maybe some day we will be.
>
> We sell our microphones(with 797 brand name) over the world directly or OEM
> for some company, such as RODE, BPM.(about 10 company).
> Best regard.
> Ma Jiulong
>
Pingouin
Anyone interesting in buying 100 fake SM-58s? Also, he mentions that
they make microphones such as the Rode NT-2. So...are the microphones
with the 797 badge any worse than a Rode?
Just a thought...
Pingouin.
Dear sir.
thanks for you interesting in our products.
Here is the price of some of our microphones.(FOB Beijing, USD).
CR998 $300.00 include all standard accessories .
CR3000 $80.00 include all standard accessories .
CR414 $130.00 include all standard accessories .
CR100 $220.00 include all standard accessories .
CR616 $100.00 Include shock mount .
CR1-78 $120.00 include windscreen .
CR722 $100.00 include windscreen and LJ-12A .
CR628 $80.00 include LJ-12A .
CR1-4 $80.00 include LJ-12.
CR523 $ 80.00 include LJ-12B .
Aluminum carrying case: 30.00USD
If the quantity you need is large, the price will be lower.
CD-58 $ 15.00 Min.Quantity. 100 pcs
CD-14L $ 10.00 Min.Q. 100 pcs
CD-22L $ 6.00 Min.Q. 100 pcs.
CD-24L $ 6.00 Min.Q. 100 pcs
CDK404 $ 7.00 Min.Q. 100 pcs.
you can tell me which and how many you need.
I will tell our export dep. to contact to you for the payment.
If you have any question, please ask me without hesitation.
maybe you can take a look at our OEM products:
ADK(www.adk.cc):A51TT,A51TC.
Marshall(www.mars-cam.com):MXL2003, MXL600, V77.
PMI(www.pmiaudio.com): BPM microphones:CR-10, CR95, TB-95etc.
RODE(www.event1.com):NT2.
some of these microphones are our OEM microphones.
Best Regards
Ma Jiulong/chief engineer of 797 audio.
http://www.797audio.com
> 797 is the 797 Factory of the Ministry of Electronics Industry, and is
> located on the outskirts of Beijing. I first visited there in 1985,
it's
> an interesting place. They also make loudspeakers (columns and big
reflex
> bins) including Altec A7 copies, all the way down to clock radio
speakers.
> Some of the Chinese mics sold abroad come from there, but you have to
make
> the deal with them directly. The majority of the 87-ish clones come
from
> a factory in Shanghai due to the fact that there's an alumnus of the
Shanghai
> factory living in L. A. who actively promotes sales of their mics.
> --
> David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA /
da...@josephson.com
>
Bill Drum
report to this group!
Bill
"Jeremy C B Nicoll" <Jer...@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:498fd309...@omba.demon.co.uk...
adam soroka
forward to the group because it gives the actual model numbers of some
of the OEM mics of this company, although exactly which ones are theirs
isn't made clear.
> From snsa...@public3.bta.net.cn Sun Feb 13 21:37:28 2000
> From: "MA JIULONG" <snsa...@public3.bta.net.cn>
> To: "aj...@virginia.edu" <aj...@unix.mail.virginia.edu>
> Subject: Re: Dealer in North America?
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:43:57 +0800
>
> Dear sir.
> I am sorry that we have no distributor in the US.
> Maybe you can take a look at some other microphones such as:
>
> ADK(www.adk.cc):A51TT,A51TC.
> Marshall(www.mars-cam.com):MXL2003, MXL600, V77.
> PMI(www.pmiaudio.com): BPM microphones:CR-10, CR95, TB-95etc.
> RODE(www.event1.com):NT2.
>
> some of these microphones are our OEM microphones.
>
> Best regard.
> Ma Jiulong
> www.797audio.com
Blind Joni
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Albany, NY
"Survivor of the Slums"
Bob Cain
Anonymous wrote:
>
>
> Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
> they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
>
> This company must be considered as nothing short of
> highly unethical.
>
That's a tough call but as long as they are not trying to pass copies
off as original and they are not violating patents, design or otherwise,
their ethics pass muster with me. That's probably not a popular opinion
and not cast in concrete either but....
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
jwb...@hotmail.com
be specific) as rap members, get a huge discount so we don't pay much if
they're POS'. That way, we can all listen to them and make our
decisions of what we think.
In article <88a2c7$9uo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> maybe you can take a look at our OEM products:
> ADK(www.adk.cc):A51TT,A51TC.
> Marshall(www.mars-cam.com):MXL2003, MXL600, V77.
> PMI(www.pmiaudio.com): BPM microphones:CR-10, CR95, TB-95etc.
> RODE(www.event1.com):NT2.
>
> some of these microphones are our OEM microphones.
>
Peter C. Hotston
time so I shall see if I can give them a visit. I don't feel qualified
to give a review of them though as I don't believe my ears are up to
most of you out there.
Peter
In article <6qVp4.735$Zn6....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, Bill Drum
<mayfai...@yahoo.com> writes
--
Peter C. Hotston
Anonymous
Steve Puntolillo wrote:
> Basically, I agree, but I have a feeling that some of these might not be
> the "clones" we would hope for. For instance, take a look at this URL
> from the site. Scroll down to the 414 "clone" and take a close look.
> There's something wrong here when a 414 has a wire to the center of
> the capsule.
>
> http://www.797audio.com/html/product2.htm
>
> Hey, it might be a cool sounding mic, and as you say, at these prices,
> why not? But, they probably all have their own sound even if they are
> dressed up in familiar clothing. I'm for buying some and trying them
> out, but I don't think I'm going to count on them sounding like what
> they look like.
Wow... this is the most blatant and shameless "croning"
I have ever seen. The C3000 becomes the CR3000, the
C414 becomes the CR414, the MD421 becomes the CD421,
the MD441 becomes the CD441...
Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
This company must be considered as nothing short of
highly unethical.
--
the artist formerly known as Bill
--------== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==-------
Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
-----------== http://www.newsfeeds.com ==----------
Twist Turner
get me some info on these. I might just pick one up to see, and if I
don't like it I can always sell it for what I paid for it or more.
Twist Turner
http://members.tripod.com/~Twist_Turner/index.html
Dirk Offringa
Anonymous <nob...@newsfeeds.com> a écrit dans le message :
38A8E3D0...@grove.ufl.edu...
>
> This company must be considered as nothing short of
> highly unethical.
Hi
I do completely agree. Even their logo is directly copied from the AKG logo.
There is something wrong here, and even if for an unbelievable reason
nothing is wrong concerning laws/patents and copyright, I must admit that I
think this is, yes, highly unethical.
It's unethical too, that they mention they "developed" this line
microphones. That's a pure lie. They're "developing" a business, yeah,
right. Not a very honest one, IMHO. I can't help being a bit shocked. If
this is possible, than everything is possible, in every domain.
I would be VERY interested to know what Sennheiser, Neumann or AKG people
think about this. Maybe Neumann is less concerned, because the people who
buy a Neumann clone like this would probably never had bought the original,
and those who are seriously in the market for a Neumann, would probably not
be tempted at all by a clone.
Reminds me of the days the Japanese suddenly began producing guitars. So
people, if this is going into the same direction, buy every f****g original
AKG, Sennheiser etc you can afford, and put them away in a safe. Even
"original 20th century" SM58's will be considered as "high value vintage" in
a couple of years. And Sennheiser and AKG will have dissapeared.
Bye
Dirk
Peter C. Hotston
where I am at the moment and will be here on and off for the next six
months.
Peter
Turner <Blu...@webtv.net> writes
--
Peter C. Hotston
Bob Cain
Bob Cain wrote:
>
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >
> > Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
> > they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
> >
> > This company must be considered as nothing short of
> > highly unethical.
> >
>
> That's a tough call but as long as they are not trying to pass copies
> off as original and they are not violating patents, design or otherwise,
> their ethics pass muster with me. That's probably not a popular opinion
> and not cast in concrete either but....
>
I should add: as long as they are not revealing trade secrets or
violating non-disclosure agreements, etc. I suppose there are a lot of
ways it could be underhanded or unethical but until I hear otherwise I
prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Self serving I know.
Luke Kaven
forms at about this price point (as suggested, we may be no stranger to this
componentry, but at a slightly higher price point). The price range that
the guys at PMI audio were considering for their new "Studio Projects" line
seems to fit the cost of these mics. We'll see...it was suggested by
analogy to me that Mercedes Benz's are not all made in Germany. The BPM for
example has a distinguished character. Could it be that the early problems
with quality control (e.g., with the RODE NT2) have been greatly mitigated?
Luke
Bob Cain wrote in message <38A88E8E...@znet.com>...
>I've enquired about purchase. Hell, at those prices why not take a
>chance. Ya just never know. Their most likely models, the CR998,
>CR3000 and CR414 are backloged a few months but I am going to get a
>CR998 and pair of CR414's when they are shipping again.
Luke Kaven
web sites. I found it very interesting that the photograph of the
large-diaphragm capsule is exactly identical to the photograph of the
capsule at the Beijing 797 Audio home page! A further look reveals that
THESE ARE the 797 microphones.
No _wonder_ there is a backlog of several months for these microphones.
Luke
Dirk Offringa
<jwb...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
88b3ju$13h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hey, maybe we should all buy a TON of these things (one agreed upon to
> be specific) as rap members, get a huge discount so we don't pay much if
> they're POS'. That way, we can all listen to them and make our
> decisions of what we think.
Hi
You people are really greedy. Seems like the word "bargain" or "profit"
makes you blind. "Get a huge discount".....on a price that is already
insignificant for a couple of reasons you are surely aware of.......
Talking 'bout slavery.......
I don't know if this was ment as humor, but it sure doesn't make me laugh.
Bye
Dirk
Dirk Offringa
Bob Cain <arc...@znet.com> a écrit dans le message :
38A92494...@znet.com...
I suppose there are a lot of
> ways it could be underhanded or unethical but until I hear otherwise I
> prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Self serving I know.
There are a lot of people over there that will never be given the benefit of
the doubt.
Bye
Dirk
Ty Ford
wise is sufficient.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Ty Ford's equipment reviews and V/O files can be found at
http://www.jagunet.com/~tford
Scott Dorsey
>Steve Puntolillo wrote:
>
>> Basically, I agree, but I have a feeling that some of these might not be
>> the "clones" we would hope for. For instance, take a look at this URL
>> from the site. Scroll down to the 414 "clone" and take a close look.
>> There's something wrong here when a 414 has a wire to the center of
>> the capsule.
I believe that their "414 clone" uses a U87-type capsule with some problems.
It's the one with the slits, not the one with the holes, as I recall. You
will notice that there is no figure-8 pattern on any of these.
>Wow... this is the most blatant and shameless "croning"
>I have ever seen. The C3000 becomes the CR3000, the
>C414 becomes the CR414, the MD421 becomes the CD421,
>the MD441 becomes the CD441...
>
>Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
>they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
>
>This company must be considered as nothing short of
>highly unethical.
It's a cultural thing. I believe that in China, this sort of thing isn't
really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
intellectual property is radically different than ours.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Robert Aries
"We think it’s quite simple. Our mics are every bit as good or better at a
fraction of the cost you would pay for a world class German microphone. No,
were not a German mic, but we sure do sound like one."
Jon Best
real reason I'd buy one is because it'd be funny. I suppose I could hope it
sounded good too. :)
Someone mentioned going to Beijing- bring some money and your favorite
headphones, and see if they'll let you go through a couple of dozen. Find a
pair that sound good _and_ similar, and you probably will have a hell of a
bargain.
Jon Best
Sales Weasel From Mars
Steve Puntolillo wrote:
> Hi, All --
>
> Bob Cain wrote:
>
> > I've enquired about purchase. Hell, at those prices why not take a
> > chance. Ya just never know. Their most likely models, the CR998,
> > CR3000 and CR414 are backloged a few months but I am going to get a
> > CR998 and pair of CR414's when they are shipping again.
>
> Basically, I agree, but I have a feeling that some of these might not be
>
> the "clones" we would hope for. For instance, take a look at this URL
> from the site. Scroll down to the 414 "clone" and take a close look.
> There's something wrong here when a 414 has a wire to the center of
> the capsule.
>
> http://www.797audio.com/html/product2.htm
>
> Hey, it might be a cool sounding mic, and as you say, at these prices,
> why not? But, they probably all have their own sound even if they are
> dressed up in familiar clothing. I'm for buying some and trying them
> out, but I don't think I'm going to count on them sounding like what
> they
> look like.
>
> --Steve
>
> ===============================================
> Steve Puntolillo
> Sonicraft Inc. - Digital Audio Services
> http://www.sonicraft.com
> ===============================================
s...@randomc.com
>Cheap mics that look like the classics, and actually work? Wow I gotta buy two
>of each! Then when the clients come in I can show them my *COOL* mic collection
>with all the mics that they have seen in those huge mega dollar super studios.
>Solves the problem when they start asking questions such as 'you got one of
> them
>mics that are all silver that all the BEST singers sing with?' Step right this
>way mate... :)
>Reminds me of the lighting show held in China some years back. The disco
>lighting guys were bemused to discover exact clones of their products being
>shown by the locals: Right down to identical names and logos. Oh well.
>Anthony B. Kitson BSEE AES
>http://www.pinnaclestudio.com - Recently Updated!
>Anonymous wrote:
>> Wow... this is the most blatant and shameless "croning"
>> I have ever seen. The C3000 becomes the CR3000, the
>> C414 becomes the CR414, the MD421 becomes the CD421,
>> the MD441 becomes the CD441...
>> Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
>> they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
>> This company must be considered as nothing short of
>> highly unethical.
They even seem to have taken AKGs logo and messed with it a bit to make it
look slightly different. If they tried this in the US, they would be shut
down before the first ones made it off the shelf. (I think. Do we still do
that here? I have to go look in my Dad's basement and see if he got rid of
those Japanese prisoners. The war's been over a long time, but I haven't
gotten around to telling him.)
Steve
EveAnna Manley
David Josephson <dav...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:88708i$brp$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> The majority of the 87-ish clones come from
> a factory in Shanghai due to the fact that there's an alumnus of the
Shanghai
> factory living in L. A. who actively promotes sales of their mics.
> --
> David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA /
True. We have been importing one of these for over ten years now known as
Langevin CR-3A in our version. The capsule, honestly, we have not had any
significant problems with. It sounds pretty good and they are decently
consistant. We use this same capsule in our Reference Cardioid Mic and
coupled with basically the same tube circuit as our Reference Gold (which
uses a CK-12 style capsule built by David Josephson) the Reference Cardioid
is a nice mic. The chinese center-fixed capsule is a much easier thing to
make. Our Josephson capsule is very difficult to make.
We had past problems with the CR-3A when they were building/soldering the
electronics. Those guys soldered for sh*t where you'd open the mic and a
capacitor or two would fall out on the floor. So we solved that one by
pulling in the PCB manufacture in-house 'cause our girls solder much better
than the chinese. Of course, the chinese kept raising our cost on the mic
even though they were performing less and less labour wouldn't ya know....
So now, we pay for the capsule, metalwork, output tranny, and the cheapo
case and shock mount and swivel and we load in our PCB/electronics in ChinO
not ChinA........
One thing you do get with the Langevin CR-3A is our very attentive Manley
Labs after-sales service and the assurance that if you did buy the Langevin
Mic and you had a problem with it, that there would actually be someone
right here in California who would take care of you and stand behind the
product.
All this said, with the flood of chinese mics in the last few years, we'll
probably stop bringing in the Langevin CR-3A after awhile. As the public
seem to keep demanding cheap cheap cheap and our cost always goes up up up
in efforts to make that mic the best it can be, we'll probably bow out of
this race as gracefully as possible.........
--
Cheers, EveAnna Manley, President
Manley Laboratories, Inc. 13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino, CA. 91710
Tel: (909) 627-4256 Fax: (909) 628-2482
http://www.manleylabs.com
2DJVENGAC
...
> All this said, with the flood of chinese mics in the last few years, we'll
> probably stop bringing in the Langevin CR-3A after awhile. As the public
> seem to keep demanding cheap cheap cheap and our cost always goes up up up
> in efforts to make that mic the best it can be, we'll probably bow out of
> this race as gracefully as possible.........
there y'are folks.. ain;t free-market capitalism with no regard for
anything but $$ wunnerful?
Y'all stock up on them there CR414's no matter WHAT"S inside 'em...
and wait for the 797 Vocks Boxe ... should be able to get one for $300
and I bet they weigh almost as much as one of EveAnna's....
Steve Puntolillo
This post didn't take the first time, so I
apologize in advance if you end up with two of
them.
Well, the plot *sickens*. I think Ty's right.
Ty Ford wrote:
> I could waste a lot of space explaining the subject line, but a word to the
> wise is sufficient.
Take a look at the "deal" just a few days ago:
RSiegel920 got the following response:
> Dear Sir.
> Thank you for your interesting in our products.
> We are sorry that we do not have distributor in U.S now.
> If you want to buy some of our microphones,
> you can only buy them from our company directly.
>
> Here is the price of some of our microphones.(FOB Beijing, USD).
>
> CR998 $300.00 include all standard accessories .
> CR3000 $80.00 include all standard accessories .
> CR414 $130.00 include all standard accessories .
> CR100 $220.00 include all standard accessories .
> CR616 $100.00 Include shock mount .
> CR1-78 $120.00 include windscreen .
> CR722 $100.00 include windscreen and LJ-12A .
> CR628 $80.00 include LJ-12A .
> CR1-4 $80.00 include LJ-12.
> CR523 $ 80.00 include LJ-12B .
> Aluminum carrying case: 30.00USD
OK, got that? Now take a look at the response I got this morning:
MA JIULONG wrote:
> Here is the price (FOB Beijing ,USD)
>
> CR998 $ ( 360.00 include all standard accessories ), Minimum Quantity:5pcs.
> CR3000 $ ( 100.00 include all standard accessories ), M.Q.:10pcs.
> CR414 $ ( 150.00 include all standard accessories ) , M.Q.:10pcs.
> CR100 $ ( 270.00 include all standard accessories ). , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CR616 $ ( 100.00 Include shock mount ) . , M.Q.:10pcs.
> CR1-78 $ ( 150.00 include windscreen ). , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CR722 $ ( 110.00 include windscreen and LJ-12A ). , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CR628 $ ( 90.00 include LJ-12A ) , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CR1-4 $ ( 90.00 include LJ-12 ) , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CR523 $ ( 90.00 include LJ-12B ). , M.Q.:5pcs.
> CD-441: $38.50 Min.Quantity. 100 pcs
> CD-421: $16.50 Min.Quantity. 100 pcs
> CD-58 $ 15.00 Min. Quantity. 100 pcs
> CD-14L $ 10.00 Min. Quantity. 100 pcs
> CD-22L $ 6.00 . Min. Quantity. 100 pcs
> CD-24L $ 6.00 Min. Quantity. 100 pcs
> CDK404 $ 7.00. Min. Quantity. 100 pcs
>
> If you will buy large quantity, the price will be about 50~70%.
>
> the large diaphragm capsule of our microphone are center terminated as
> Neumann U87.
> We do not take credit cards.
> If you need some, you should tell me which and how many, and our export dep.
> will contact you for payment(T/T).
>
> If you have any question, please ask me without hesitation.
>
> Best Regards
> Ma Jiulong/chief engineer of 797 audio.
> Fax:+86-10-64386201
> http://www.797audio.com
Pretty amazing. Just a couple of days ago the prices were less
expensive and no minimum quantities are mentioned. A few inquiries
from this group later and it's minimum quantities and instant inflation.
Note also that they're selling AKG look alikes with Neumann style
capsules in them. Right.
There are more than enough deals on mics out there from reputable
companies. It's worth it to me to give my money to a company like
Rode or MXL and let *them* deal with companies like 797.
Anonymous
Bob Cain wrote:
> Bob Cain wrote:
> > Anonymous wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
> > > they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
> > >
> > > This company must be considered as nothing short of
> > > highly unethical.
> > >
> >
> > That's a tough call but as long as they are not trying to pass copies
> > off as original and they are not violating patents, design or otherwise,
> > their ethics pass muster with me. That's probably not a popular opinion
> > and not cast in concrete either but....
> >
>
> I should add: as long as they are not revealing trade secrets or
> violating non-disclosure agreements, etc. I suppose there are a lot of
> ways it could be underhanded or unethical but until I hear otherwise I
> prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Self serving I know.
I am not familiar with the exact law (I am sure someone
else) but precise imitation of another company's "trade
dress" is considered unethical and illegal.
I am sure these mics could not be legally sold in the US
as is, being such precise copies of the AKG and Sennheiser
designs, down even to details which have nothing to do with
function, such as the "AKG Green" band on the C3000.
--
the artist formerly known as Bill
--------== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==-------
SonusRex
>Rode or MXL and let *them* deal with companies like 797.
I believe if you dig deeper, you will discover that 797 actually bulids mics
for Rode, Marshall (MXL),
PMI and ADK. They probably build components for others as well. I feel just
because they have chosen to copy others cosmetics (sneaky, I agree)
doesn't mean that it is not a viable product. Who knows, it may actually have
ome very unique and useful sonic properties. I, for one, would welcome the
chance to audition a few models to see if they are usefull, or paperweights.
Now zipping up my asbestos suit! ;-)
George
ZSon...@Zaol.comZ
"Tone is the only consideration"
Remove "Z" anti-spam to reply.
Anonymous
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Anonymous <nob...@newsfeeds.com> wrote:
> >Wow... this is the most blatant and shameless "croning"
> >I have ever seen. The C3000 becomes the CR3000, the
> >C414 becomes the CR414, the MD421 becomes the CD421,
> >the MD441 becomes the CD441...
> >
> >Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
> >they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
> >
> >This company must be considered as nothing short of
> >highly unethical.
> It's a cultural thing. I believe that in China, this sort of thing isn't
> really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
> intellectual property is radically different than ours.
Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
their own. Never have and never will so long as
they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
Luke Kaven
very careful here folks. I've worked along with some absolutely brilliant
Chinese scientists in my career, and we certainly would not have our
knowledge of the AIDS virus, among many other things, were it not for their
dedication -- and originality.
Scott Dorsey wrote in message <88crhl$khk$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>So, you don't think the compass, the clock, or the printing press count?
>--scott
Bob Cain
Steve Puntolillo wrote:
>
>
> Pretty amazing. Just a couple of days ago the prices were less
> expensive and no minimum quantities are mentioned. A few inquiries
> from this group later and it's minimum quantities and instant inflation.
I got the same but I didn't find it sinsiter. It just appeared to me
that they were thinking on their feet when they began getting personal
inquiries and failed at first to consider the quantity aspects. I think
someone got their hand slapped. It is signifigant to me that without my
even having to ask he offered to honor his first quote for this order.
I'm goin' for a 998 as soon as he tells me how they prefer payment to
their Hong Kong bank. I've never been much into jingoism and I don't
care if they try to make it look like a toy Harley. I thought all the
"look and feel" suits were downright goofy and feel the same about
controversy over this. I think mics are absurdly overpriced and (among
other things) this is my protest. I may have to recant but so what. The
taste of crow never particularly bothered me.
Brian Birge
> > ways it could be underhanded or unethical but until I hear otherwise I
> > prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Self serving I know.
>
Just because us Westerners think it may be unethical doesn't mean they do.
There have *very* different ideas about intellectual property rights in many
eastern (asian) countries compared to western. - Brian
Anthony B. Kitson
of each! Then when the clients come in I can show them my *COOL* mic collection
with all the mics that they have seen in those huge mega dollar super studios.
Solves the problem when they start asking questions such as 'you got one of them
mics that are all silver that all the BEST singers sing with?' Step right this
way mate... :)
Reminds me of the lighting show held in China some years back. The disco
lighting guys were bemused to discover exact clones of their products being
shown by the locals: Right down to identical names and logos. Oh well.
Anthony B. Kitson BSEE AES
http://www.pinnaclestudio.com - Recently Updated!
Anonymous wrote:
>
> Wow... this is the most blatant and shameless "croning"
> I have ever seen. The C3000 becomes the CR3000, the
> C414 becomes the CR414, the MD421 becomes the CD421,
> the MD441 becomes the CD441...
>
> Not only did they go far a direct copy of the shape,
> they even stole the "AKG Green" band of the C3000.
>
> This company must be considered as nothing short of
> highly unethical.
>
> --
jwb...@hotmail.com
to automaticly discredit the company on our perception of their site.
Infact, most info that we all have seen, brought to us by recognized
members, makes quite a few of us lean toward them being legit, legal,
and morally OK (in a lot of people's minds). Are you telling me you
know there's a slavery issue going on here? If so, please let us all
know. I'm pretty sure most won't buy a damn thing from them. I know I
sure won't!
As far as the quote you brought up from me, I don't expect to get them
for any cheaper than what they're asking for them. The "discount" has
already been applied IF they are bought in bulk. I'm sure you don't
jump on people's backs when they're buying electronic components in
bulk for the obvious reasons.
Regards,
Weston
In article <88bguo$g7f$1...@news2.isdnet.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jwb...@hotmail.com
Simon
Regards Simon
SonusRex <sonu...@aol.comZ> wrote in message
news:20000215184744...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Peter C. Hotston
is full of Cherokee Jeeps..... they are made in China under licence.
They look good but they are only rear wheel drive not 4X4. God knows
what the engine is. I am very very sure the mics won't be that
dissimilar but at that price it might be fun to play with.
I will take some headphones with me when I go next month but I will get
a stable price if I get the folk in our Beijing office to purchase me
one rather than a white devil like me going to see them.
All the best
Peter
<ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> writes
>I can't help but wonder whether we are going to see these mics in other
>forms at about this price point (as suggested, we may be no stranger to this
>componentry, but at a slightly higher price point). The price range that
>the guys at PMI audio were considering for their new "Studio Projects" line
>seems to fit the cost of these mics. We'll see...it was suggested by
>analogy to me that Mercedes Benz's are not all made in Germany. The BPM for
>example has a distinguished character. Could it be that the early problems
>with quality control (e.g., with the RODE NT2) have been greatly mitigated?
>
>Luke
>
>Bob Cain wrote in message <38A88E8E...@znet.com>...
>>I've enquired about purchase. Hell, at those prices why not take a
>>chance. Ya just never know. Their most likely models, the CR998,
>>CR3000 and CR414 are backloged a few months but I am going to get a
>>CR998 and pair of CR414's when they are shipping again.
>>
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>--
>>
>>"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
>>
>> A. Einstein
>
>
--
Peter C. Hotston
Steve Puntolillo
Bob Cain wrote:
> Steve Puntolillo wrote:
> >
> >
> > Pretty amazing. Just a couple of days ago the prices were less
> > expensive and no minimum quantities are mentioned. A few inquiries
> > from this group later and it's minimum quantities and instant inflation.
>
> I got the same but I didn't find it sinsiter. It just appeared to me
> that they were thinking on their feet when they began getting personal
> inquiries and failed at first to consider the quantity aspects. I think
> someone got their hand slapped.
All of this is possible and sounds perfectly reasonable.
> It is signifigant to me that without my
> even having to ask he offered to honor his first quote for this order.
Perhaps this is an indication of some type of ethics. I very much prefer to
give the benefit of the doubt.
OTOH, some of this could also be a bit of a game that is the accepted norm in
Chinese business dealings. Let me quickly admit that I have never done
business with Bejing Chinese, and I'm very open to correction about what I am
about to post.
I understand that in the Chinese culture (and very many others), hard
bargaining is expected. I'm pretty sure that after he quotes you, you are
*supposed* to make a counter offer at some perfectly ridiculous price and then
the dance goes
on until you reach a number somewhere in the middle. I know a few Westerners
who love to do business this way, (ever try to sell a piece of pro audio gear
to a used equipment dealer? <I'm grinning and ducking here!> ), but for most
of us the process is distasteful. They do not find it upsetting at all.
I'll bet he'll sell only one, and I'll bet he'll sell it for less than $300,
unless of course it really does take some threshold of quantity to get him
interested in bargaining. OTOH, he may be somewhat surprised when he gets
your $300 that it was so easy. None of this means he isn't a very nice person
who works hard, loves his family, etc.
> I'm goin' for a 998 as soon as he tells me how they prefer payment to
> their Hong Kong bank. I've never been much into jingoism and I don't
> care if they try to make it look like a toy Harley. I thought all the
> "look and feel" suits were downright goofy and feel the same about
> controversy over this. I think mics are absurdly overpriced and (among
> other things) this is my protest. I may have to recant but so what. The
> taste of crow never particularly bothered me.
Just make sure you're clear that it's not really "The Tube". It might be a
C12 circuitry knockoff (and it might not!) but it's absolutely a Neumann
capsule knockoff making it automatically different from what the look would
imply.
Anyway, let us know how you like it, OK?
Thanks,
SonusRex
>"look and feel" suits were downright goofy and feel the same about
>controversy over this. I think mics are absurdly overpriced and (among
>other things) this is my protest. I may have to recant but so what. The
>taste of crow never particularly bothered me.
>
>
I tend to agree.
Bob Cain
Steve Puntolillo wrote:
>
> I understand that in the Chinese culture (and very many others), hard
> bargaining is expected. I'm pretty sure that after he quotes you, you are
> *supposed* to make a counter offer at some perfectly ridiculous price and then
> the dance goes
> on until you reach a number somewhere in the middle. I know a few Westerners
> who love to do business this way, (ever try to sell a piece of pro audio gear
> to a used equipment dealer? <I'm grinning and ducking here!> ), but for most
> of us the process is distasteful. They do not find it upsetting at all.
I only find it distateful because I am totally incompetent at it. When
I go looking for a car I bring along a Persian friend. :-)
>
> I'll bet he'll sell only one, and I'll bet he'll sell it for less than $300,
> unless of course it really does take some threshold of quantity to get him
> interested in bargaining. OTOH, he may be somewhat surprised when he gets
> your $300 that it was so easy. None of this means he isn't a very nice person
> who works hard, loves his family, etc.
I wouldn't doubt that you were right about this and that I could have
done better but the price was good enough as is to do some "market
research." And who knows, importing has always appealed to me and with
a partner like my Persian friend....
I love it. An Irishman and a Persian dealing with the Chinese to sell
into a market dominated by the Germans and being encroached by the
Russians. My Gawd how could it fail? :-)
>
> Just make sure you're clear that it's not really "The Tube". It might be a
> C12 circuitry knockoff (and it might not!) but it's absolutely a Neumann
> capsule knockoff making it automatically different from what the look would
> imply.
Yep. It is an experiment that I can afford to fail at. All I "know" is
that it is a dual diaphragm multi-pattern tube condenser mic with a
classic look for $300. The rest remains to be seen. In fact if they
are lurking here and hoping to build some credibility with us I wouldn't
be surprised if it was a slice off the top and perhaps not
representative but that is pure speculation that would just happen to
work to my advantage.
>
> Anyway, let us know how you like it, OK?
>
You damn betcha! ;-)
David Josephson
>coupled with basically the same tube circuit as our Reference Gold (which
>uses a CK-12 style capsule built by David Josephson) the Reference Cardioid
>is a nice mic. The chinese center-fixed capsule is a much easier thing to
>make. Our Josephson capsule is very difficult to make.
True ... of all the Chinese mics, I have not seen them attempt to copy
the CK12. After wrestling with it since 1989 (with a very patient customer,
thanks EveAnna) we can finally make them consistently.
>All this said, with the flood of chinese mics in the last few years, we'll
>probably stop bringing in the Langevin CR-3A after awhile. As the public
>seem to keep demanding cheap cheap cheap and our cost always goes up up up
>in efforts to make that mic the best it can be, we'll probably bow out of
>this race as gracefully as possible.........
Ultimately the public loses. Years ago, Neumann and AKG pretty much
owned the business, and had everyone convinced that they had patents on
enough of the design to keep a monopoly. No one would dare challenge it.
Now you have the Chinese factories and their agents out in the market
underselling their own wholesale customers. I guess it's the ultimate
test of how elastic the market is; if you'll buy a 797 mic for a few
dollars less than Marshall charges, when you wouldn't buy it from Marshall,
I really wonder. Oh -- and I rather doubt that you can go to the factory
and pick a pair that you like the sound of! I still have about a dozen of
the CR-1-5 which is not made in either Beijing or Shanghai and sounds
much more like a U87 than any of their products -- but its factory
still has a lot of military work and doesn't do the market hustle the way
the big city factories do. Anyway each of that dozen mics sounds okay,
but different. No, I was not able to return them or swap for others.
--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / da...@josephson.com
David Josephson
>This is a good point. I was in Beijing before Christmas and the place
>is full of Cherokee Jeeps..... they are made in China under licence.
And have been for many years. Read the book "Beijing Jeep" by Jim Mann
for that story.
>I will take some headphones with me when I go next month but I will get
>a stable price if I get the folk in our Beijing office to purchase me
>one rather than a white devil like me going to see them.
You might get a better price than the locals, if 797 thinks you might buy
a container-load to sell.
David Josephson
>Obviously, these mics are causing great contrevercy. I have no reason
>to automaticly discredit the company on our perception of their site.
>Infact, most info that we all have seen, brought to us by recognized
>members, makes quite a few of us lean toward them being legit, legal,
>and morally OK (in a lot of people's minds). Are you telling me you
>know there's a slavery issue going on here? If so, please let us all
The so-called anti-communist lobby would have you believe that any labor in
China is slave labor. As with most myths there is a grain of truth to it;
China has no prohibition on prison labor and that is used to make a lot of
things. But 797 is still a state-owned factory (that's why the number for
a name) of the Electronics Ministry, which is fairly high up in prestige
among Chinese government entities. The people who work there generally
consider themselves very, very priveleged to have a job (a) with the
Ministry and (b) in the capital city.
Ty Ford
Humor Filter ON:
You can both save us the time and energy. Why not have a nice crow lunch
together after meeting at Radio Shack for some really nice mics.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Humor Filter OFF
SonusRex
>already been applied IF they are bought in bulk. I'm sure you don't
Check this out........
The e-mail I got this morining from Ma at 797 stated
the following:
If you can buy more than 50 pcs, the price will be 300-300*40%=180.00USD/pc.
Thas's right, if we can pool together and buy 50
pieces of there tube mic, the price goes down to $180.00 each + shipping. He
also offered similar
discounts on the other mics as well.
So, who's game?
George
Luis Cypher
to China to get $3 pirate CDs.
On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:34:08 -0800, ark <a...@aa.net> wrote:
>Here's a good story -- someone I told me they once saw some software
>for sale at some kind of flea market or trade show in China, the set
>of CDs was selling for $50... it was a huge program used to design
>manufacturing equipment which normally sold for close to a million
>dollars in the western world... talk about a bargain.
>
>It's true that the culture is different with regards to copying, but
>it's not like Chinese people aren't smart enough to understand what is
>going on with the piracy... and not all of them agree with it, either.
>
>Al
>
>On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:09:07 GMT, Reap <dbr...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>>Yeah like I think theres only one copy of MS word on the whole asian
>>continent. They play really fair over there. Screw the culture!!
>>
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>>It's a cultural thing. I believe that in China, this sort of thing isn't
>>>really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
>>>intellectual property is radically different than ours.
>>>--scott
>>
>>
>>http://people.ne.mediaone.net/dbrady/index.html
>
Stephen King
> > Anonymous <nob...@newsfeeds.com> wrote:
>
SNIP
> > >This company must be considered as nothing short of
> > >highly unethical.
>
isn't
> > really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
> > intellectual property is radically different than ours.
>
> their own. Never have and never will so long as
> they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
>
> --
> the artist formerly known as Bill
>
> --------== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==-------
> Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
> -----------== http://www.newsfeeds.com ==----------
Aren't we forgetting that this is exactly what Japan did for the 15 or 20
years after WWII. For those old enough, remember the cheezo copies of damn
near everything. 'Made in Japan' was a term of derision. However, through
the process of making bad knock-offs, they learned. Boy did they learn!
Within 30 years or so of entering the world market, Japan grew their economy
so that it was second only to the U.S.
Steve King
Stephen King
news:88crhl$khk$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> So, you don't think the compass, the clock, or the printing press count?
> --scott
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Or gunpowder!
Steve King
bpm
quality is more than poor.
First of all, like mentioned below, there is no chance to get even two mikes
sounding the same - if you need a stereo pair for example. Second, there is
no service at all and third you may experience that the capsule used in this
mikes are lasting even not 6 month - if used constantly. So you may spare a
few $$ in the beginning, but you may pay heavily if you need any service for
your mike.
By the way the shape of the grill of any microphone ( Neumann, AKG etc.) is
in no way protected. There are no patents possible for a microphones grill.
--
Udo Bekemeier
BPM Customer Service
Wattstr. 11-13
D-13355 Berlin
Germany
www.bpm-studiotechnik.com
David Josephson <dav...@rahul.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
88dvj1$bhv$1...@samba.rahul.net...
david gourley
no, they learned because of edwards demming.
back in the 50s when we were 'on top' (in an excessive kind of way), he
offered his services to gm and ford (among others) and was promptly escorted
out of their buildings. subsequently, he went to japan and helped improve
methods of quality control in manufacturing. the net result was massive
improvement of product reliability and quality. 'just in time,' anyone?
david
Scott Dorsey
>Obviously, these mics are causing great contrevercy. I have no reason
>to automaticly discredit the company on our perception of their site.
>Infact, most info that we all have seen, brought to us by recognized
>members, makes quite a few of us lean toward them being legit, legal,
>and morally OK (in a lot of people's minds). Are you telling me you
>know there's a slavery issue going on here? If so, please let us all
>sure won't!
Well, they are legitimately made by an organ of the Chinese government.
Many people do not like supporting the Chinese government because they do
some pretty nasty things like using slave labour in factories, locking
political prisoners in jail, and gunning down student protestors. Other
people like supporting the Chinese government because they feel that there
is no way to change it otherwise, and that trade will bring economic reform
which will bring political reform.
You can pick either side of the fence. I grew up in a number of southeast
Asian dictatorships so I tend to be biased on the subject and keep out
of the arguments.
>As far as the quote you brought up from me, I don't expect to get them
>for any cheaper than what they're asking for them. The "discount" has
>already been applied IF they are bought in bulk. I'm sure you don't
>jump on people's backs when they're buying electronic components in
>bulk for the obvious reasons.
Well, the thing is that mikes from the Beijing and Shanghai factories have
been sold here for quite a few years, and a lot of other manufacturers
are using capsules or capsule parts from there. So it's hard _not_ to
support them in some way if you make that decision. And yes, their prices
are somewhat flexible, and they get more flexible when you are buying
huge quantities or dealing through a middleman with connections. That's
the way all markets are.
Mike Rivers
In article <20000215192136...@ng-ck1.aol.com> bgro...@aol.comno.spam writes:
> since PMI is planning on selling these mics to us at 3X's the price we can get
> for ourselves why don't we form a rec.audio.pro gear co-op and purchase some of
> these mics ourselves for ourselves and sell any extras.
Got a plan for DOA (dead on arrival) or early failures? Or is that a
risk one has to take to save money?
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Dave Martin
Scott Dorsey <klu...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:88eg6e$eqe$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> Many people do not like supporting the Chinese government because they do
> some pretty nasty things like using slave labour in factories, locking
> political prisoners in jail, and gunning down student protestors.
The US has factories in prisons, we definitely have some political prisoners
(especially if you count tax protesters), and remember Kent State?
--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc.
Nashville, Tennessee
dave....@nashville.com
Scott Dorsey
>> some pretty nasty things like using slave labour in factories, locking
>> political prisoners in jail, and gunning down student protestors.
>
>The US has factories in prisons, we definitely have some political prisoners
>(especially if you count tax protesters), and remember Kent State?
Well, yes, and there are plenty of folks who boycott American products too
because of that kind of thing. It goes both ways. You can do whatever you
want. But please don't get into a flame war over it.
Dirk Offringa
bpm <b...@bpm-studiotechnik.com> a écrit dans le message :
88edrt$6u0$1...@unlisys.unlisys.net...
> We have been dealing with 797 quite a while and I can say that the build
> quality is more than poor.
> First of all, like mentioned below, there is no chance to get even two
mikes
> sounding the same - if you need a stereo pair for example. Second, there
is
> no service at all and third you may experience that the capsule used in
this
> mikes are lasting even not 6 month - if used constantly. So you may spare
a
> few $$ in the beginning, but you may pay heavily if you need any service
for
> your mike.
> By the way the shape of the grill of any microphone ( Neumann, AKG etc.)
is
> in no way protected. There are no patents possible for a microphones
grill.
>
> --
> Udo Bekemeier
> BPM Customer Service
> Wattstr. 11-13
> D-13355 Berlin
So you must discard a hell of a lot of items then. Your BPM TB94 is retailed
in here in France for 10990 Francs = approx 1675$$.
(More than twice a TLM103). Is this one manufactured by 797 too?
Bye
Dirk
Dave Martin
> Well, yes, and there are plenty of folks who boycott American products too
> because of that kind of thing. It goes both ways. You can do whatever
you
> want. But please don't get into a flame war over it.
> --scott
> --
And I won't; I simply couldn't resist pointing out that there are problems
all over...
Luis Cypher
<dave....@nashville.com> wrote:
>As much as I try to stay out of this type of discussion...
>
>Scott Dorsey <klu...@netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:88eg6e$eqe$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
>
>> Many people do not like supporting the Chinese government because they do
>> some pretty nasty things like using slave labour in factories, locking
>> political prisoners in jail, and gunning down student protestors.
>
>The US has factories in prisons, we definitely have some political prisoners
>(especially if you count tax protesters), and remember Kent State?
>Dave Martin
>
Can you say "Manuel Noriega?" Actually, he petitioned and won the
right to NOT go to the political prison in Marion, IL, lucky bastard.
Eleven Shadows
> their own. Never have and never will so long as
> they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
Curious. Where do you think early earthquake sensors, kites, porcelain and
china, fireworks, abacus, silk, paper, the clock, the wheelbarrow, the
crossbow, the animal harness, the printing press, compass, ink, or playing
cards come from?
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/nectar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
music*travel photos*tibet*lots of stuff
"Sangsara" "Irian Jaya" & d i t h er CDs available!
http://www.elevenshadows.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
s...@randomc.com
>Yeah like I think theres only one copy of MS word on the whole asian
>continent. They play really fair over there. Screw the culture!!
>Dan
>>It's a cultural thing. I believe that in China, this sort of thing isn't
>>really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
>>intellectual property is radically different than ours.
>>--scott
Radically different in that they are willing to lie, cheat and steal for
American dollars. I love it when people think that a definition of culture
makes it ok to steal or lie. A lie is a lie in any language.
Steve
ScotFraser
In article <salr3b2...@corp.supernews.com>, <dave....@nashville.com>
wrote:
<<The US has factories in prisons, we definitely have some political prisoners
(especially if you count tax protesters), and remember Kent State?
>>
Now just hold on there, Dave, (1) working in prison factories is voluntary &
the prisoners are paid, at least in California, (2) if by tax protesters you
mean the likes of the Idaho Freemen, they are jailed because of their actions
(usually weapons violations & filing fraudulent liens) not their political
beliefs, and (3) Kent State, well, it shocked even the right wing authorities
so much that nothing of the sort has recurred in the last 30 years & the tide
of public opinion swung firmly against the war, i.e. the protesters eventually
prevailed. Kent State was an aberration.
Scott Fraser
Anonymous
Eleven Shadows wrote:
>
> > Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
> > their own. Never have and never will so long as
> > they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
>
> Curious. Where do you think early earthquake sensors, kites, porcelain and
> china, fireworks, abacus, silk, paper, the clock, the wheelbarrow, the
> crossbow, the animal harness, the printing press, compass, ink, or playing
> cards come from?
Not anytime in the last 100 years, and have nothing to
do with the surge in intellectual property that occurred
after establishment of the patent system, which is coincident
(arguably causative) of the surge in standard of living
which occurred thereafter.
Having to go back many hundreds of years to make your
example instead, I think, proves my point -- the above
are the exceptions that prove the rule, if you have
to go back that far to find them.
Obviously nothing contributing much (if anything)
to your standard of living today is the result of
any recent inventions (last 100 years) in countries
not respecting intellectual property rights. This
was my point.
But if your point is, does a culture *ever* develop
any ideas when there is no intellectual property, even
just an idea every few centuries or so, then the
answer is yes.
You will find an amazing correlation between the
amount (and quality) of ideas developed in countries
that have established intellectual property rights
vs those that have not.
A large part of this is no doubt due to the fact
that one doesn't, contrary to the common saying,
find the world beating a path to one's door after
inventing a better mousetrap. It takes a great
deal of devotion of resources and time to develop
an idea (as many on this newsgroup including myself
can tell you.)
Obviously there is no reason to do that when there
is no return on the investment to be expected.
You would not have anyone able to be an Edison
without protection of intellectual property.
Name the Edison (or even a shadown of an Edison)
who worked in a country with no protection of
intellectual property...
I thought all this was common knowledge and find
myself quite surprised at having to explain it?
ScotFraser
<<I love it when people think that a definition of culture
makes it ok to steal or lie. A lie is a lie in any language. >>
But a lie is not necessarily a peccadillo in every language. I don't know about
China but I do know from family business experience that in parts of Central
Asia & the Near East screwing the people you do business with in order to gain
advantage is simply seen as the adept maneuvering of a skilled businessman, and
has no ethical implications attached. That's just how they see it. They also
have some cultural assumptions about women that would make you want to nuke
them all, but I'm sure they think Americans are really screwed up too.
Scott Fraser
ScotFraser
<<> Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
> their own. Never have and never will so long as
> they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
>>
Please stop now & try to extricate your foot from your mouth while you can
still breathe.
Scott Fraser
hank alrich
I think he can't get the foot out because with his head so far up his
ass there simply isn't space for foot extrication. He lacks wiggle room.
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
Anonymous
ScotFraser wrote:
>
> <<> Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
> > their own. Never have and never will so long as
> > they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
> >>
> Please stop now & try to extricate your foot from your mouth while you can
> still breathe.
OK, why don't you write us an essay on
Chinese inventions in the 20th Century that
have made a big difference to the standard
of living. Show where I am wrong.
Perhaps you can do better with substantive
discussion refuting my point than with insults...
your insult was pretty weak so you could hardly
do worse.
Anonymous
hank alrich wrote:
>
> ScotFraser <scotf...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > <<> Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
> > > their own. Never have and never will so long as
> > > they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
> > >>
> >
> > Please stop now & try to extricate your foot from your mouth while you can
> > still breathe.
> >
> > Scott Fraser
>
> I think he can't get the foot out because with his head so far up his
> ass there simply isn't space for foot extrication. He lacks wiggle room.
Okay, fuck you all.
s...@randomc.com
Dorsey) wrote:
>Anonymous <nob...@newsfeeds.com> wrote:
>>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> It's a cultural thing. I believe that in China, this sort of thing isn't
>>> really considered unethical at all, because their attitudes toward
>>> intellectual property is radically different than ours.
>>Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
>>their own. Never have and never will so long as
>>they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
>So, you don't think the compass, the clock, or the printing press count?
No one said that they couldn't come up with their own mic, just don't make it
look exactly like a dozen existing ones. That's the difference. No one has
the monopoly on making mics.
Steve
>--scott
Chris Nagorka
Chinese, so I called Event Electronics, and they flatly deny that The
NT-2 or any of the Rode line is chinese made. I said, okay, so maybe the
capsules are chinese and they're assembled in Austraila? He said he
didn't think any major components were chinese, maybe individual
components on a circuit board, etc, but not anything as major as a
capsule,
Has anyone found out about any of the other "OEM" mics listed?
Chris
hank alrich
> hank alrich wrote:
> >
> > ScotFraser <scotf...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > <<> Which is why they don't have ideas or designs of
> > > > their own. Never have and never will so long as
> > > > they have this attitude of intellectual parasitism.
> > > >>
> > >
> > > Please stop now & try to extricate your foot from your mouth while you can
> > > still breathe.
> > >
> > > Scott Fraser
> >
> > I think he can't get the foot out because with his head so far up his
> > ass there simply isn't space for foot extrication. He lacks wiggle room.
>
> Okay, fuck you all.
Nice try! _Hitler_ might have said the same!! (TaDaaaah!!!)
Jingo Bells, Jingo Bells, Jingo all the way
How much fun just to pretend that the good ol' USA
Can't do no wrong, does only right
Has all the brains and class
Jingo Bells, Jingo Bells, with our head right up our ass
Scott Dorsey
>I had a hard time believing that thing about the Rode NT-2 being
>Chinese, so I called Event Electronics, and they flatly deny that The
>NT-2 or any of the Rode line is chinese made. I said, okay, so maybe the
>capsules are chinese and they're assembled in Austraila? He said he
>didn't think any major components were chinese, maybe individual
>components on a circuit board, etc, but not anything as major as a
>capsule,
The capsule is most definitely Chinese. It's not from the Beijing
factory, though, it's from the Shanghai factory. Some other pretty
important parts of the mike are also Chinese. This is in great part
why the NT-2 has so much consistency trouble.
They can say all they want, but that doesn't change things.
Anonymous
hank alrich wrote:
> > > I think he can't get the foot out because with his head so far up his
> > > ass there simply isn't space for foot extrication. He lacks wiggle room.
> >
> > Okay, fuck you all.
>
> Nice try! _Hitler_ might have said the same!! (TaDaaaah!!!)
>
> Jingo Bells, Jingo Bells, Jingo all the way
> How much fun just to pretend that the good ol' USA
> Can't do no wrong, does only right
> Has all the brains and class
> Jingo Bells, Jingo Bells, with our head right up our ass
Hank, I seriously suggest you use your newsreader or
use DejaNews to go back and read what was written by
me.
Come back when you realize that I have written not
one word along the lines you charge. Not one word
saying the USA does one thing better than anybody
else does, or has "done no wrong, does only right."
Not a word.
I hope you have the class to actually find out whether
there is any substances to your assertions that I have
written what I have not, and to apologize for your
repeated errors and insults after having done so. Do you?
If not, what sort of person are you, to insult me for
things I have not said?
Harvey Gerst
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>David Josephson <dav...@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>> Quoting David Manley, circa 1988: "You
>> have got to be kidding, this looks like an elephant testicle on a stick."
>
>EveAnna claims he was looking in the mirror.
Get the quote right, Hank
David was looking in a fun-house mirror at the time, and it's EveAnna's quote,
not Dave's.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Dirk Offringa
I didn't mean to compare the qualities of these mics, just the price in
regard to what BPM just posted.
I don't know the BPM TB94.
I think we just came up with something that is interesting....in another
recent post you said that the capsule made for this mic was made by
Sennheiser. OK. Now if the companies (whichever) were more CLEAR about what
they sold, probably this whole discussion would have turned out differently.
If for each model BPM stated: "capsules made by Sennheiser" or "mic made by
797 Beijing", or if 797 mentioned "the capsule and the electronics inside
this mic are original designs from......(ourselves/someone else)" the whole
situation would be different.
Nowadays, it seems that everybody does what he likes, without having to
inform the customer, and the fact that, in this mic case, they use very
familiar "packaging" obviously is misleading.
In nutritional matters, there are a whole lot of legal mentions to be
printed on the package. It seems to be accepted that the customer here has
the right to be informed what he is buying, so that he can make his choice
based upon real information.
This whole mic-thing reveals the lack of information the companies provide.
Even the "made in xxxx" mention is often manipulated.
E.g you can produce an equipment and have all components manufactured
somewhere in Asia, then ship them here, and assemble them, which gives you
the right to say "made in France".
Free market is good. But only with good information. We have the right to be
informed what we are buying, and who our money goes to. I personally do not
want to finance the Chinese ministry of Electronics. And I would like to
know if I do so. I would not mind to finance a Chinese private company. I
think that selling stuff with someone else's packaging, is not fair
business, but if it is legal, ok, but tell us what's inside.
Bye
Dirk
Paolo Tramannoni <p.t...@fastnet.it> a écrit dans le message :
p.tram-5E1F46....@news.ac.fastnet.it...
> > So you must discard a hell of a lot of items then. Your BPM TB94 is
> > retailed in here in France for 10990 Francs = approx 1675$$.
> > (More than twice a TLM103). Is this one manufactured by 797 too?
>
> It's not right to compare a TLM103 to a TB94. I LOVE the TLM103 (the
> more I use, the better it sounds!), but the TB94 lives on another
> planet. If you want middle-high frequency sheen, take the TLM103. If you
> want a fat, balanced, warm sound, take a TB94.
>
> Paolo
>
> P.S.: BTW, why Eastern Europe manufacturers (e.g. BPM, Elation,
> Microtech Gefell) have the worse internet sites in the world? For
> example, thnx to gd & to Anja, I know a little German. But what about if
> I didn't with the BPM site?
>
> --
> Paolo Tramannoni
> Porto Recanati, Italy
> p.t...@fastnet.it
ScotFraser
In article <10466-38...@storefull-114.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
cnag...@webtv.net wrote:
<<I called Event Electronics, and they flatly deny that The
NT-2 or any of the Rode line is chinese made. I said, okay, so maybe the
capsules are chinese and they're assembled in Austraila? He said he
didn't think any major components were chinese, maybe individual
components on a circuit board, etc, but not anything as major as a
capsule,>>
So they are either astonishingly ignorant of the products they distribute or
intentionally deceitful.
Scott Fraser
Robert Spencer
in china, & also, btw, quite inconsistent in quality [ kinda like our
roads - excuse the pun ]. the other bits are local. they are assembled by
freedman electronics.
r.
Rick Novak
> ....an argument that respect of intellectual property rights is
> important if one wishes more intellectual property to
> be developed with time, thus allowing further advances.
Side-stepping the ethnocentric aspect of this thread, I'd like to
challenge your central notion here, Bill.
I've got one foot in the world of music and the other in the world of
surfing, where there's basically no such thing as a copyright or patent.
Surfboard design is a classic case of one shaper subtley improving upon
the innovations of other shapers, with no monetary exchange whatsoever.
These guys not only freely share their ideas but actually go to great
lengths to convince each other that their way is the best way to make
surfboards.
These ideas get bounced back and forth across the planet and in tiny
increments, and occasional leaps, surfboard design improves, and it's
good for all of us who ride waves. And we buy whatever we feel is the
best current design with absolutely no sense of loyalty to the original
inventor of a concept, be it tri-fins or channel bottoms or whatever.
A simple example; in the early 70's some surfers in Santa Cruz, CA got
tired of swimming through freezing, shark infested waters every time
they wiped out. So they started tying their board on to one foot with
a rope. Unfortunately, that would almost rip their leg off on big wave
wipeouts. So Jack O'Neill, (the guy who invented the wetsuit), tried
using stretchy surgical tubing instead of rope. Unfortunately, this
stretched out too much and the board would sometimes come flying back at
the surfer. In fact, O'Neill lost an eye in such an accident. (He's
now referred to as "One Eyed Jack". :>)
Someone else started putting a thin nylon rope inside the hollow
surgical tubing to limit how far it could stretch, but on severe
wipeouts this thin rope cut into the surfboard's fiberglass and
occasionally the surfer's leg. So Kenny Bradshaw, (who rode the world's
biggest wave last year), found an extruded urethane material that would
stretch just a little bit under extreme stress.
About 5 years ago Kenny's best friend Mark Foo drowned in huge waves
near Santa Cruz when his leash got rapped around a rock and he couldn't
get loose. So someone else invented a quick release pin, like a hand
grenade or parachute pin with a ring on it by your ankle that lets you
bail in an emergency.
And that's basically what every surfer in the world is using today.
Now dig this; *NOBODY* holds a patent on the surfboard leash!
And most everything in surfing is like this. If someone tried to
patent an innovation it would constipate the entire communal creative
process. We'd still be riding balsa wood planks!
I'm not suggesting that patents are always, or even usually bad. Just
giving a concrete example where "intellectual property rights" would
stifle innovation.
Cheers, Rick Novak.
Ken Nelson
as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
by patenting any aspect of it.
Anyway, we are digressing like attention-deficit 8-year olds. Who has used these
mics and how do they sound???
ken
2DJVENGAC
>
> Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
> as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
> by patenting any aspect of it.
>
> Anyway, we are digressing like attention-deficit 8-year olds. Who has used these
> mics and how do they sound???
They all sound different.. every capsule off the line sounds different
from the one on either side of it. You buy a bushel and find one you
like (or two) and then hope it'll still sound like that in a year...
Scott Dorsey
>Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
>as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
>by patenting any aspect of it.
Well, it wasn't very long ago that the audio industry was that way too.
>Anyway, we are digressing like attention-deficit 8-year olds. Who has used these
>mics and how do they sound???
I have, as I have mentioned. They all sound different.
Ken Nelson
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <38B4069C...@here.please>, Ken Nelson <n...@here.please> wrote:
> >Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
> >as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
> >by patenting any aspect of it.
>
> Well, it wasn't very long ago that the audio industry was that way too.
>
I hate like hell disagreeing with you on anything, but I think the case can be made
that the audio production industry from the wax cylinder on has always been a bigger
market (recordings, talkies, radio, tv, video, interactive etc etc) than surfing will
ever be.
Another (irrelevant) point: the 797 mics seem to be visual clones mostly, with the same
few capsules used in all (notwithstanding that the capsules themselves are clones), so
there's probably not much to prosecute on besides looks.
(re auditioning these mics)
>I have, as I have mentioned. They all sound different.
I'm sorry I missed your post on the sound of these clones. If they all sounded
different... did any sound good? interesting?
Thanks,
ken
Anonymous
Rick, I think your example is very similar to one made earlier concerning
violins, and I think the same answer applies.
Where one does not have to invest a great deal of money into developing
an idea, and especially where putting the same sort of thing into
production is *what you do* anyway and it may not be much harder to
make it with this new change in shape you have conceived, and it may
make you a few more sales or enhance your reputation if it works...
then sure, the motivation exceeds the cost and you will try the idea.
If it works, again you have motivation to produce it, for reasons
you've said above.
But, can you take 10 years (or whatever it was) off your life and
try thousands of things to make a light bulb, if there is no patent
forthcoming and whatever you develop, everyone else can do and pay
you nothing? And you are not in the business of making light bulbs
anyway?
And most other things involve more expenditure of time and
money than that.
The surfboard example is analogous I think to advances in craftsmanship
which did indeed occur prior to establishment of patent law, but
doesn't change the situation that where great investment must be
made to develop inventions (as is usually the case) we won't have
the inventions developed unless there is a mechanism for return.
Something well understood by the founding fathers of this country,
hence the existence of patent law in the US, and subsequent adoption
of patent law in other (but not all) countries.
Anonymous
2DJVENGAC wrote:
> Ken Nelson wrote:
> >
> > Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
> > as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
> > by patenting any aspect of it.
> >
> > Anyway, we are digressing like attention-deficit 8-year olds. Who has used these
> > mics and how do they sound???
>
> They all sound different.. every capsule off the line sounds different
> from the one on either side of it. You buy a bushel and find one you
> like (or two) and then hope it'll still sound like that in a year...
I just had an experience along these lines.
I bought on eBay an otherwise-very-nice mic that uses
the Chinese capsule, with the intent of replacing the capsule
with something more suitable. (I had done this before with
another example of the same mic.)
Not only was this second mic TOTALLY different from what
the first had been in sound, it would have been nearly
unusable professionally -- almost no "air" at all. I
don't mean no hype, I mean, it just isn't there. This
Chinese capsule usually does have "air" though it won't
be good-sounding "air."
And in this case it is for sure that the manufacturer
would not have let it out the door if it had sounded so
dead when new. It was from a company which does individually
test its products. The problem obviously is, a year later
(or however long it was) the Chinese capsule changed
in sound radically from what it must have been like new.
Rick Novak
> Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
> as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
> by patenting any aspect of it.
Tell it to Hobie Alter, who invented the Hobie Cats, or Tom Morey and
Mike Doyle who invented the Boogie Board, or all the magazine publishers
and clothing manufacturers. :>) Multi, multi million dollar global
industry. Peripheral to surfboard design, true. And where there's
serious money involved there are certainly patents and copyrights as well.
My point was simply that in some cases patents and legalities can
indeed be detrimental to innovation, contrary to Bill's much repeated
theme. I'm not the least bit anti-patent or pro-Chinese. Just easily
irked by pedantry. Sorry. :>) R.N.
John Etnier
Ken Nelson wrote:
>
> Interesting anecdote, but surfing is such a small market (yet a tightly knit one
> as you note), and likely to remain small, that frankly there's no money to be made
> by patenting any aspect of it.
>
> Anyway, we are digressing like attention-deficit 8-year olds. Who has used these
> mics and how do they sound???
>
I really like the Mothers Of Invention around the "Weasels"/"Burnt
Weenie" period the best. The band had been playing together for years by
that point, and there is killer ensemble playing and soloing sprinkled
throughout those two disks.
After that, things ran out of steam on a predictable and steady curve...
Just gettin' yet goat there.... ;-)
--
=============================================
John Etnier
Studio Dual
-------------------------------------
http://www.studiodual.com
=============================================
bpm
www.bpm-studiotechnik.com
Dirk Offringa <dirk.o...@pacwan.fr> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
88et52$1i6$1...@news3.isdnet.net...
> So you must discard a hell of a lot of items then. Your BPM TB94 is
retailed
> in here in France for 10990 Francs = approx 1675$$.
> (More than twice a TLM103). Is this one manufactured by 797 too?
>
> Dirk
>
>
Well, how can you compare a TLM 193 with a TB-94. The TB-94 is a tube
microphone and you may compare it with U67 or the M149. The price for M149
is ca. 3000,-$. You may compare the TLM 193 with the CR-10 which has a
retail price of 395,- $ , but this price includes all accessories , the TLM
193 doesn't.
Udo