STILL " the BEST sounding point-source loudspeaker in existence today" ?
Bret Ludwig
DUPLEX® Loudspeaker Systems
Altec Lansing invented the first DUPLEX® Loudspeaker System in
1941 (some sources say 1943 - we're really not sure). Called the
"601", it was of the field-coil type and included a small-format HF
compression driver mounted to a 12" low frequency loudspeaker with a
hole bored through the pole piece of the woofer which connected to a 2
x 3 multicellular horn. Thus began the famous DUPLEX® series of
loudspeakers.
In 1944, the first of the world-renown ALTEC "604" series of
DUPLEX® Loudspeakers (left) was introduced. It utilized a new,
permanent magnetic structure of Alnico V, had a 15" low frequency
loudspeaker with a high frequency compression driver mounted to the
rear of it's magnet. The high frequency sound waves traveled through a
hole bored through the low frequency pole piece, exiting through a
small multicellular horn. Later versions (C through E) used sectoral
horns with vanes. The most recent 604 (K-series) used a small constant-
directivity MANTARAY® horn (see image below).
ALTEC 604 DUPLEX®, CUT-AWAY VIEW
Scan of published advertising literature. Author has one of only two
models made to create the photo.
ALTEC 604 DUPLEX® HORN ASSEMBLIES Photo Courtesy Pierre
C - G Style Is On Left, Original & B Style Is
On Right.
Note the original and B style horn is a true, multicellular horn
(cells go all the way back to the mouth of the throat), whereas the C
- G style uses an extension to connect the smaller horn to the pole
piece.
This difference is quite hearable, as the low frequency loading
on the larger horn, coupled with a lower crossover point, giving it
more naturalism and presence.
ORIGIN OF THE ALTEC DUPLEX® SERIES -
The origin of the concept of the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX® has been in
dispute for many years. Devotees of James B. Lansing asseverate that
he designed it, but the plain truth is that he didn't, although he did
design the tooling to build it.
The original ALTEC 601 DUPLEX® was, as mentioned above, a field-
coil device, assembled from units already in the Lansing® line when
George Carrington, Sr. and the All Technical Services Company
purchased the nearly bankrupt Lansing Manufacturing Company in 1941.
In all likelihood, the idea for a point-source loudspeaker system
originated with Art Crawford, but it was Carrington - not Lansing -
who, according to the late Alvis A. Ward, was intrigued by the
concept, and authorized an Altec-built system of this type.
Design work for the original ALTEC 601 DUPLEX® was, in all
probability, performed by Carrington, who was himself a very capable
engineer in his own right.
Ward, who was with Altec from the ERPI days in the late 1920's all
the way through the sale of the Company to Gulton, confirmed to the
owner of this site in writing that, contrary to the propaganda
promulgated by JBL and others, the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX® was NOT conceived
by James B. Lansing, but, rather, was the brainchild of George
Carrington. According to Mr. Ward, Jim Lansing's ONLY real
contribution to the development of the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX® had to do
with the fabrication of the tooling for, and manufacture of, the now
famous speaker, seeing as how he was in charge of manufacturing at the
time.
In reality, the real reason his name appears on the press releases
and papers of the day was political. Seeing as how Lansing did
fabricate the tooling necessary to manufacture the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX®,
Mr. Carrington agreed to allow him to introduce it, since it was,
after all, built in the Lansing shop using many of Lansing's
materials. Mr. Bill Hayes, longtime employee of Altec Lansing, and
Head of Acoustical Engineering from 1973-83, has said repeatedly over
the years that Jim Lansing's initials don't even appear on the
original drawings for the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX® and that he (Lansing)
didn't have anything to do with the actual design of it at all.
Empirical proof of this is seen (and heard) in JBL's laughable knock-
off of the incomparable ALTEC 604 DUPLEX®. Seems to this writer if he
had, JBL would have been able to do a better job on their own
unit. . .
Often imitated, but never duplicated, the ALTEC 604 DUPLEX®has
been heralded the world over for its ability to reproduce sound
accurately and in proper phase. It is still the BEST sounding point-
source loudspeaker in existence today.
Altec Lansing was purchased by Gulton/Electro-Voice in 1983.
Later, Gulton sold it's audio division containing Altec Lansing,
University Sound, and EV (among others) to the Mark IV investment
group, which turned it into Mark IV Audio, which killed the Altec
Lansing Corporation. Then, it was sold to the Telex Corporation, which
subsequently sold the brand name to Altec Lansing Technologies,
formerly known as Sparkomatic. At that point, the 604 ceased to be
produced by Altec Lansing.
FORTUNATELY, Bill Hanuschak, owner of Great Plains Audio, Inc.,
purchased the tooling to manufacture the famous speaker from Telex,
and it is hoped that this wonderful product will be introduced to the
marketplace soon!
Bret Ludwig
Steve, could we talk about Altec VOT vs. Tannoy Golds?
audio
09-11-2003, 12:59 AM
Steve, I love these Tannoys that I purchased. In fact, the are utterly
magnificent. Shortcomings? Perhaps "boomy" bass, which I'm sure is a
product of the cabinet design, which I can live with. Everything else
is spot on in terms of what I like to hear and very sweet. The imaging
is superb. I don't know what that problem I was having with the
compressed sound was but it's gone now. The thing is that I continue
to be VERY curious about Altec speakers. The basic thought process is
"have I found the perfect vintage speaker?" Anyway, there is a model
called the Altec Valencia, which is basically the VOT components in a
smaller cabinet. I know you've not heard these. I also know you've not
spent any time with the Tannoy 12"s. Regardless of that fact, you've
got a hell of a lot more experience than I do in terms of listening to
vintage speakers. Could you talk briefly about the difference between
something like the Tannoy 15"s and the Altec VOT? How would you
describe the general difference in the sound of these two speakers?
I'd rather hear what you have to say before I spend huge $$ to have a
pair of these beasts shipped to my house so I can A/B them.
Gary
09-11-2003, 04:53 AM
Prix, my friend, your post reminded me of a small group of audiophiles
that I met at a flea market. That was one of their haunts, looking for
vintage stereo equipment. And they traded & bought & sold amoung
themselves, too.
All vintage audiophile stuff.
I met one of the guys recently. He had given it all up. He told me
that he must have spent more than $40,000.00 on buying and selling
equipment and he was never happy. He finally went out and bought new
equipment. Now he's happy!
So you see where I'm going with this, right? Concentrate on what you
have, tweak it, try the superball trick and after it's all "perfect"
and you've lived with it for a while, start hunting around for other
stuff.
Be happy! :)
Gary
Incidentally, Steve is not the only guy around here that is into
vintage. I'd hope that others who have heard Tannoys - and other
vintage equipment - would also chime in here. But they may not want to
express an opinion that may be contrary to Steve's opinion. Or respond
to your post when it is expressly asking for Steve's opinion. Like I
am doing. :sigh: Perhaps you should consider asking "anyone" instead
of just "Steve"? Just a thought.
pdenny
09-11-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Gary
[B]So you see where I'm going with this, right? Concentrate on what
you have, tweak it, try the superball trick and after it's all
"perfect" and you've lived with it for a while, start hunting around
for other stuff.
Gary I read up on the "superball trick" in the archives (must've
missed the thread when it was live)...is this just for turntables or
will it have an effect on CD/SACD players too?
Metralla
09-11-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Gary
Incidentally, Steve is not the only guy around here that is into
vintage. I'd hope that others who have heard Tannoys - and other
vintage equipment - would also chime in here. But they may not want to
express an opinion that may be contrary to Steve's opinion. Or respond
to your post when it is expressly asking for Steve's opinion. Like I
am doing. :sigh: Perhaps you should consider asking "anyone" instead
of just "Steve"? Just a thought.
I would definitely agree with that. I don't think it is fair to Steve
either, to put him on the spot like that by using his name in the
thread title. If he doesn't get around to responding, it may look bad
to a casual reader.
Regards,
Geoff
Cliff
09-11-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by pdenny
Gary I read up on the "superball trick" in the archives (must've
missed the thread when it was live)...is this just for turntables or
will it have an effect on CD/SACD players too?
I've been curious as well, pd. I am going to order a set and try them
out. Only problem is it will be almost impossible to A/B them :)
Sorry, prix, didn't mean to thread crap :)
Steve Hoffman
09-11-2003, 08:54 AM
Not to worry.
I'm not into Altec speakers; too "horny" sounding for me. I like
Tannoys because you can't even hear the crossover point; it's a
seamless sound all the way up.
Altec's are indeed exciting to listen to (try "Break On Through" by
the Doors, mixed on the big Altecs), but not for more than a little
bit at a time. Most recording engineers who used Altec monitors in
their work are now deaf as a post. What does that tell you?
Anyone here into Altecs?
audio
09-11-2003, 12:30 PM
Thanks very much, Steve. I see your point. I'm no longer interested in
Altecs, for that matter. I'm still sort of curious to hear them, but
I'm not going to have a speaker in my system that is fatiguing or is
going to make me go deaf. I appreciate your wisdom here.
Also, Gary, I see your point also. I am so happy with the sound of
this setup, why should I be thinking about changing it already? It's
nuts. I haven't even finished it. I should be more concerned with fine
tuning what I've got then wasting any more money.
As for the superball trick, you guys might want to check out this
thread:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19970&highlight=idea+isolation
Claviusb had a really good point that killed the superball concept for
me out of principal, though I would still be interested in trying it
out.
AudioEnz
09-11-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by prix
Steve, I love these Tannoys that I purchased. In fact, the are utterly
magnificent. Shortcomings? Perhaps "boomy" bass, which I'm sure is a
product of the cabinet design
prix,
try some solid metal spiked stands underneath your Tannoys instead of
that funny woodern box contraptioon in your photo - that should help
with the bass. Thre stands should be welded, not screwed together. The
aim is to get the speakers so that they don't move - no wobble, no
movement.
triple
09-11-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by AudioEnz
prix,
try some solid metal spiked stands underneath your Tannoys instead of
that funny woodern box contraptioon in your photo - that should help
with the bass. Thre stands should be welded, not screwed together. The
aim is to get the speakers so that they don't move - no wobble, no
movement.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I didn't say anything about "boomy" bass, but I guess I was not
totally wrong here:
Peace,
Goran
Gary
09-11-2003, 02:34 PM
Yes, Claviusb had an excellent point. Can't argue against that one at
all. :)
All I can say is that it really works in my system. And for a few
other people, too. They are better than spikes and that's all I ever
compared them to. Why just spikes? Never found a place that had a
money back guarantee for tho$e expen$ive i$olation device$.
I guess they are the poor man's isolation devices. That's me! ;)
Anyway, they are .25 cents each, a washer is .19 cents each. And if
you don't like 'em, you've not spent too much. And you'll have some
fun with the superballs, too!
The only problem with them is that they can make components wobble
(especially heavier ones) if you are clumsy putting a CD in the
player. I use four - one for each corner - like feet. I've never had a
problem.
I use them under everything I have except for the way-too-heavy
speakers. That includes turntable, amp, preamp, SACD player.
Those wooden boxes are to be LP racks. Prix, please also experiment
with spikes under the speakers as AudioEnz suggests. I think you'll be
suprised.... ;)
Steve M
09-11-2003, 03:54 PM
If you would like to find out more about the original Altec Lansing
speaker range, including the Voice of the Theatre check out the
"unofficial Altec Lansing homepage" website:
http://www.nleinternet.net/alteclansingunofficial/index.html
Having owned both their domestic versions and professional speakers, I
would tend to lean towards the pro models, if you have enough space in
your listening area .
To my knowledge the Altec Lansing 604 duplex was one of the models
that made it's way into the control room of many studios and in
several different sized enclosures.
There are also several articles on the Doug Sax Mastering Labs 604
cross-over on the net.
A 604 duplex in the right enclosure and a good quality cross-over
should give you a fairly balanced sound imho. However they are
certainly not a very "forgiving" loudspeaker.
If you want to you can also fine tune your set up with pink noise.
MMM
09-11-2003, 04:12 PM
Maybe just try to experiment with placement a little more to help with
the bass "boom"?
audio
09-11-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by MMM
Maybe just try to experiment with placement a little more to help with
the bass "boom"?
Honestly, the bass boom doesn't really bother me. I know I can heal
it. It's also possible that I am hearing real bass for the first time
after a decade of listening to 6" woofers and it's not unnatural boom
at all. It's so friggin' nice just to have a sweet and dynamic
sounding vintage tube system that I am trying not to sweat the details
for now. I've got an issue to deal with in terms of the balance of the
amp also. There is a slight channel imbalance. I'll be tweaking this
system for another 6 months before I get it perfect. This system is a
lot of fun. It sounds more like live music than anything I'm used to,
even with the tad of boom. I'm pretty stoked. Old Stevearino is dead
right about those old Tannoys. They really are magic!
pdenny
09-11-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by prix
It sounds more like live music than anything I'm used to, even with
the tad of boom. I'm pretty stoked. Old Stevearino is dead right about
those old Tannoys. They really are magic!
Welcome, my son, to the fraternity. :D
electrode10101
09-11-2003, 10:06 PM
Hi everyone!
I've been a staunch Altec supporter since the early '70's when I got a
pair of A7-500's. I had them in my finished basement (rental house
while in college), driven by a Dynaco PAS-3x/St70 combo. I had to EQ
them a bit to get them to sound good in the smaller than theater size
space, but they sounded absolutely incredible.
I played 'em loud (not TOO loud!) and still have my hearing! The trick
is you have to sit at least 15 feet back. They sounded great at any
level, playing a variety of music. The were especially great when it
was time to party!
I eventually sold them when I had to move to an apartment, and wound
up playing the Bose (eek!), JBL, AR, Infinity, endless chain of
unsatisfying speakers, selection replacement game for the next 15
years.
After all this time, the 2 sets of speakers I've hung on to the
longest, and still enjoy, are a pair of Quad ESL 63 electrostatics,
and a pair of Altec 604-8k duplexes in 9 cu ft boxes. They are similar
actually in many respects, but the Altecs sound better on rock, and
most jazz. Both are driven by McIntosh tube preamp and amplification.
This final model of the 604 seems to have cured that mid range peak
that plagued most of the early drivers, and the "Mantaray Horn" with
the updated drivers sounds fantastic. It provides actual high
frequency energy past 10kHz! (which most early Altecs didn't) These
speakers provide a "big as life" presentation without a hint of
strain, and instruments just sound real. I find I can truly forget I'm
listening to a "hi-fi" and enjoy the music.
Steve, you're right about the ability of the MC-30 to "give the breath
of life" to vocals. Driving the Altecs, with good sources, you can
almost feel the performer in the room (even without having a couple of
cold ones). And you're choice of tubes is right on the money. (Not
kissing up; the choices are correct for this amp, based on my 35+
years of experience with tube amplification, and 15+ years experience
with this amp in my system)
This is a great site. I've enjoyed my lurking for a while, and am glad
to have finally had a chance to post.
John Diamantis
Steve Hoffman
09-11-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by electrode10101
Hi everyone!
I've been a staunch Altec supporter since the early '70's when I got a
pair of A7-500's. I had them in my finished basement (rental house
while in college), driven by a Dynaco PAS-3x/St70 combo. I had to EQ
them a bit to get them to sound good in the smaller than theater size
space, but they sounded absolutely incredible.
I played 'em loud (not TOO loud!) and still have my hearing! The trick
is you have to sit at least 15 feet back. They sounded great at any
level, playing a variety of music. The were especially great when it
was time to party!
I eventually sold them when I had to move to an apartment, and wound
up playing the Bose (eek!), JBL, AR, Infinity, endless chain of
unsatisfying speakers, selection replacement game for the next 15
years.
After all this time, the 2 sets of speakers I've hung on to the
longest, and still enjoy, are a pair of Quad ESL 63 electrostatics,
and a pair of Altec 604-8k duplexes in 9 cu ft boxes. They are similar
actually in many respects, but the Altecs sound better on rock, and
most jazz. Both are driven by McIntosh tube preamp and amplification.
This final model of the 604 seems to have cured that mid range peak
that plagued most of the early drivers, and the "Mantaray Horn" with
the updated drivers sounds fantastic. It provides actual high
frequency energy past 10kHz! (which most early Altecs didn't) These
speakers provide a "big as life" presentation without a hint of
strain, and instruments just sound real. I find I can truly forget I'm
listening to a "hi-fi" and enjoy the music.
Steve, you're right about the ability of the MC-30 to "give the breath
of life" to vocals. Driving the Altecs, with good sources, you can
almost feel the performer in the room (even without having a couple of
cold ones). And you're choice of tubes is right on the money. (Not
kissing up; the choices are correct for this amp, based on my 35+
years of experience with tube amplification, and 15+ years experience
with this amp in my system)
This is a great site. I've enjoyed my lurking for a while, and am glad
to have finally had a chance to post.
John Diamantis
John,
Welcome. I thought my post would bring a few lurkers out of hiding,
heh.
Sure, Altec 604's can sound great, in a big ol' room with that final
model. Heck, I used to use a pair of earlier 604's when I worked at a
local recording studio. So what if it stopped at 10k? Treble in those
days meant extra 5k. In fact, over at RCA, their console EQ units had
three knobs: BASS boost at 100 cycles, MIDRANGE boost at 1000 cycles
and TREBLE boost at 5000 cycles. Ouch! Anything lower and higher, who
cared?
At any rate, yes those McIntosh MC-30's have an uncanny ability to
make some speakers really come alive. You still have a pair of 604's?
Cool.
audio
09-11-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by electrode10101
Hi everyone!
I've been a staunch Altec supporter since the early '70's when I got a
pair of A7-500's. I had them in my finished basement (rental house
while in college), driven by a Dynaco PAS-3x/St70 combo. I had to EQ
them a bit to get them to sound good in the smaller than theater size
space, but they sounded absolutely incredible.
I played 'em loud (not TOO loud!) and still have my hearing! The trick
is you have to sit at least 15 feet back. They sounded great at any
level, playing a variety of music. The were especially great when it
was time to party!
I eventually sold them when I had to move to an apartment, and wound
up playing the Bose (eek!), JBL, AR, Infinity, endless chain of
unsatisfying speakers, selection replacement game for the next 15
years.
After all this time, the 2 sets of speakers I've hung on to the
longest, and still enjoy, are a pair of Quad ESL 63 electrostatics,
and a pair of Altec 604-8k duplexes in 9 cu ft boxes. They are similar
actually in many respects, but the Altecs sound better on rock, and
most jazz. Both are driven by McIntosh tube preamp and amplification.
This final model of the 604 seems to have cured that mid range peak
that plagued most of the early drivers, and the "Mantaray Horn" with
the updated drivers sounds fantastic. It provides actual high
frequency energy past 10kHz! (which most early Altecs didn't) These
speakers provide a "big as life" presentation without a hint of
strain, and instruments just sound real. I find I can truly forget I'm
listening to a "hi-fi" and enjoy the music.
Steve, you're right about the ability of the MC-30 to "give the breath
of life" to vocals. Driving the Altecs, with good sources, you can
almost feel the performer in the room (even without having a couple of
cold ones). And you're choice of tubes is right on the money. (Not
kissing up; the choices are correct for this amp, based on my 35+
years of experience with tube amplification, and 15+ years experience
with this amp in my system)
This is a great site. I've enjoyed my lurking for a while, and am glad
to have finally had a chance to post.
John Diamantis
Welcome, John!
audio
09-11-2003, 10:43 PM
Steve, would you recommend changing the capacitors in the crossovers
in my Tannoys? Now I'm starting to think that the channel imbalance
problem I am having is coming from the speakers, not the amp.
Steve Hoffman
09-11-2003, 10:47 PM
Not unless they are broken. If you don't use exactly the same for a
replacement, you will change the sound. They won't be Tannoys anymore.
audio
09-11-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Not unless they are broken. If you don't use exactly the same for a
replacement, you will change the sound. They won't be Tannoys anymore.
Okay, well scratch that. Any idea what might cause one of my speakers
to be louder than the other?
pdenny
09-11-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by prix
Okay, well scratch that. Any idea what might cause one of my speakers
to be louder than the other?
Maybe that ear of yours isn't out of the woods.....
Steve Hoffman
09-11-2003, 11:03 PM
You did a channel reversal hook up on your receiver and the left one
stayed the same?
Both of your EQ controls on the back of the speakers are set in the
same spot?
audio
09-12-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
You did a channel reversal hook up on your receiver and the left one
stayed the same?
Both of your EQ controls on the back of the speakers are set in the
same spot?
Yes and yes. One speaker sounds brighter, more airy, and crisper than
the other. Not to say that either one sounds bad, it's just one sounds
slightly lacklustre and a tad muffled compared to the other one. Any
idea what could be causting this? I even worked the eq controls on the
back, thinking there was some dirt in there or something and that
didn't help.
Gary
09-12-2003, 04:16 PM
Take it apart. do a visual inspection of everything. Are the wires the
same? Are the drivers the same? Etc....
audio
09-12-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Gary
Take it apart. do a visual inspection of everything. Are the wires the
same? Are the drivers the same? Etc....
Yeah, unfortunately I'm going to have to dive in and figure out what's
going on. Man this vintage stuff is a real pain, but let me tell you
something that you already know, Gary. My neighbor just came over and
I put on Steve's "Hotel California" LOUD and both of our jaws hit the
floor. Seriously, we both sat there stunned......totally
speechless...and after a few minutes he says, "Oh my god.(a long
pause) You sure don't hear THAT on the radio". Me personally, I've
never heard anything like it on ANY of my expensive "audiophile"
systems. When the song kicks in with those two floor tom hits, I
thought it was going to shatter my windows! I'll tell you this, I'm
never going to be satisfied with a speaker that has anything smaller
than a 12" woofer. :thumbsup: Can't wait to get this system totally
dialed in. That Fisher is a dream!
Pages : 1 [2]
pigmode
09-12-2003, 09:45 PM
Cables can be a noticable source for bass boominess.
-=Rudy=-
09-13-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by prix
Yes and yes. One speaker sounds brighter, more airy, and crisper than
the other. Not to say that either one sounds bad, it's just one sounds
slightly lacklustre and a tad muffled compared to the other one. Any
idea what could be causting this? I even worked the eq controls on the
back, thinking there was some dirt in there or something and that
didn't help.
Maybe it's the futzy "electronics student" in me, but I'd be curious
to know what the tolerance is on the components in the crossover. If I
remember correctly, standard "silver band" resistors are 10%, gold =
5% and red = 2%. No band...20%. That's a pretty large range of values.
I'm not sure how capacitors are, but I do believe the values could
theoretically change over time. Capacitors and inductors? Not sure
what standard tolerances are. If any of those are different (within
tolerance, but not identical to each other), the speakers could sound
different.
One other thought: are both sets of drivers of the exact same model
and similar vintage? I have some speakers here where one pair looks
the same and uses the same drivers, but sounds different. (My earlier
pair has a better midrange.)